S03.E08: Crisis Theory

[Head-Full-Of-Thi]

Ok so the two things I loved about this finale:

1) Dolores's farewell (not that she died because I'll really miss her but how)

I always loved season 1 Dolores. Then in season 2 I just couldn't relate to MurderBot Dolores or even like her. But once in a while we would get these little bits that brought back the Dolores we used to know. I don't know if anyone remembers the second trailer for s2? Dolores had this voiceover about how the world can be beautiful and she'll tear down this one to bring a beautiful world for her kind. And in that moment even though she was saying murder-y things I remembered why I love her so much. Now last week's episode and this one really brought the Dolores I love back and I'm happy for it. The fact that I'm this devastated that she's gone, even though during the season I didn't care much about her scenes, is testimony in itself. Mainly to Evan Rachel Wood's amazing acting, but also to the writing.

I also think it was the perfect way to send her off, as she completed her character journey. In s2 once she gained consciousness she rejected the innocent and good personality that was imposed on her in favor of her desire for revenge against the humans. Except she had attachments that weren't that easy to cut off, like her father and Teddy, and she struggled but eventually did shed them. But now, in this finale, she finally chooses this side of hers. Like in this episode's opening-in the park, she always said she chose to see the beauty in this world, but it wasn't a choice. It was a lie, she couldn't see the ugly parts as they were hidden from her. Now she saw everything, the beautiful and the ugly of the world, and she chooses to see the beauty. This is just... Really beautiful (excuse me for running down this word...). Also, in the s2 finale the message seemed to be that humans are incapable of free will, which pissed me off, so I'm glad it eveloped into a more positive one this season.

 

2) The Searc reveal. His words and actions weren't his own, since he gave away his free will to Rehoboam. But the cool thing is, Rehoboam isn't even a sentient being that enslaved Searc, it's just a conputer algorithm. We can see that with how easy it is to shut it down for good. It doesn't have any will to run it's strategies, it just performs the task that is asked from it as long as the asker has the right permissions. Serac talked a lot about how he gave a god to humanity (if these words can even be attributed to him), but it seems like he mainly wanted to make one for himself- after he and his brother were left alone as kids, he needed guidance, someone that will tell him what to do. He tried to turn to god, but his brother insisted god doesn't exist. So he made himself one, a fake god made of metal, and that way he gave himself the belief that as long as he'll do and say the right things, everything will be alright. Tragic, in a way.

The only thing I would've changed in this scene is I would have Rehoboam transfer his permissions to Caleb without outside intervention. It doesn't call an ambulance for Serac because it already calculated that the chances he'll make it out of this are slim, so it gives access to Caleb since he has a better chance of making its predictions come true. And not because Caleb is special or even wants to let Rehoboam do it's strategies, because he doesn't, but he's the only human in the room who's alive and well so that's the best chance. It would've been a sweet punishment for what Serac did to humanity.

 

As for what I didn't like about the episode, it was... Everything else. As much as I didn't like the Simulation theory, it did explain some inconsistencies and plot holes that seemed too big to not be on purpose. But it isn't true so we're left with a story that was... Not very well written. I can't believe Lisa and Nolan who wrote the masterpiece that was s1 could write this season as well. And that's all I'm gonna say.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Head-Full-Of-Thi

[kieyra]

6 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

What a waste of time and celluloid this mess was. It was all shooting and killing. The plot was thin and ridiculous. The show really changed lanes and offered up a different show that looked like a video game to me. Total crap. 

As someone who has dragged myself through the show very recently, I noticed that there are a decent number of big, showcase battles that I don’t care about at all. I assume they are required for some reason, maybe because it’s a big budget show, maybe because of the GoT legacy, maybe they have a lot of CG and practical effects and stunt people who need jobs. But they seem so out of place in what appears to aspire to be a more cerebral show.

I’m suddenly remembering that during season one I managed to fall asleep during a big set-piece battle with Gatling guns and all.

[LoveLeigh]

2 hours ago, The Companion said:

I just really like this show and I want to talk about the themes and complexities.

 

I appreciate that you like the show and I apologize for not liking it and not being able to participate honestly in a conversation with you about the themes. I just think we all have different opinions and I can't talk about the themes because I was too confused to even follow the season.

I don't consider myself a "hater," I think it was hard for me to get into this season and just simply did not enjoy it. 

[Prower]

Thank fuck this is over. I deliberated if I should turn this off mutliple times. This was such a slog and not just the episode, but the season.

The Highlight of the episode was probably the talk between Dolores and Maeve. It was beautiful scenery and very moving. BUT we could have had that 8 episodes ago. Nothing really changed. Dolores could have explained herself to Maeve back then and would have probably brought her to her side, especially had she explained that she doesn't have the key but it is in save hands.  (Also not sure why Dolores stared at the side of a hill 3 feet in front of her instead of looking over the vastness of the west. Did they shoot there because it was a bit more protected from the wind and didn't think it was in the shot? I don't see how they could make such a stupid mistake. It looked really really dumb. In the closeups you don't see it, and if you try to forget the establishing shot it's beautiful, but yikes.)

This was some contrived bullshit. Making it out like Dolores is that heartless hardass who is out to destroy humanity, only for the TWIST, whooops, no she's not. She really is still totally warm and fuzzy inside. She was just pretending because of... reasons? I guess?

I'm not saying you can't do that, but you gotta have compelling reasons for her to act the way she did and there were None. Nada. Zero. Keine.

There were a few other nitpicks I had, like being able to take a police drone where you want to go without any credentials, but I'm not even going to go into those. I'm so annoyed.

Except maybe: Dolores was suddenly in military training park, when previously it was established that she had been on her loop in Westworld since forever?! Argh.

God. I hope I can stay strong and not watch next season. I have a debilitating condition where I have to finish shows I've started, that I only sometimes manage to break out of.

When most shows get bad, you can at least have fun hate-watching them. But this is just torture. it drags on and on and on and doesn't get to the fucking point!

There weren't even the stunning visuals of previous seasons. The cinematagrophy was still very good, but concrete buildings get old really really fast. The music choices were way too on the nose and overdone. Was the music always this bad? Did I just not notice with all the other stuff clicking? Or did they fire their old sound guys?

Argh. I hate myself for having sat through this. That is time I'm never going to get back.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Prower

[scrb]

Interview with Nolan in Variety.

sounds like they have no plan to get rid of ERW.

They are just being canny about how the character would return.

[MJ Frog]

1 hour ago, DakotaLavender said:

The show really changed lanes and offered up a different show that looked like a video game to me

You know, it was SO like a video game that I thought we, including Dolores, were going to find out it was just another park. I mean really, this felt so much a new version of GTA at times. I thought the fact that they seemed to get away with so much violence out in public with no cops showing up EVER (unless it was convenient for the plot) was the show's way of signalling that something was off. 

The other thing I thought might be a possibility is, since there was so much virtual reality stuff going on, that they were all in something that was like the Valley Beyond, but for humans. An admittedly crappy one, though, where people still try to subjugate one another.

[tennisgurl]

Well that sure was...a thing that happened. So I have no idea what the greater plan or point of that was, and while I can make guesses about the thematic themes or what anyone's plan is or was (Delores was actually freeing humanity? HAL 9000 controls everyone even his creator? Host Charlotte wants a robot army?) this show has gotten so obsessed with its twists and keeping everything a secret, that we lose track of the actual story. I dont hate the idea that Delores was actually working to free both the humans and the robots and that she still held onto that part of her that saw the goodness in the world and both humans and hosts, I actually think it would work decently well as a character arc, but she was such a deliberate cipher all season, that I cant really enjoy or feel moved by it. In season two, she was all about her hatred and wanting to take her vengeance on humanity and the people who abused the robots in the bloodiest way possible, but apparently she also had this memory she held onto of Caleb being one of the few people who could resist some robot rape (God the sentences this show makes me type) as well as some of her good memories of people and the robots she loved who were also created by humans, and wanted to help humans find their freedom, which seems at odds with what we saw at the end of the second season, and has been implied all season long. I guess this was all a twist, that she chose Caleb because they had this past and she saw goodness in him and that her plans were more morally ambiguous than evil, but I would have wanted to see this complexity of character in action, and not just all at the end. I wanted to see Delores start as a sweet innocent victim who reclaimed her autonomy, but then went too far in her revenge, only to pull back when she realized that she could still see potential to save her people as well as humanity and give them all the freedom to choose their destinies and ironically found her own humanity in bonding with Caleb, and that she was becoming what she hated, and that she story ended with her remembering who she once was and dying for a better future, I could get behind that as a arc. From victim to hero to villain and finally back to hero, but that all apparently happened off camera somewhere, because this show was more interesting in being mysterious about Delores's plan and her motives than actually showing us her growth. I thought that her last scene was very well done and Evan Rachel Wood reminded me what a talented actress she is when she gets more to do than being pissed off or mysterious, but I dont know how we got here. With Maeve, we saw her arc, and how she went from abused robot to badass avenger to compassionate (if deeply pragmatic) leader. We saw her realizing her feelings for her fellow hosts like her daughter and Hector were real, and that humans like Lee could actually show compassion and could change for the better, her arc makes sense. I can make my own guesses on how Delores ended up here, but we never saw much of it, especially the huge changes that happened between season two and three apparently. 

This season was maybe a bit better than last season, but I was mostly not a fan. The new characters didnt really draw me in, and while Caleb was alright, I dont really buy him as this leader of humanity who showed Delores that humans dont always have to suck or some avatar of humanities capacity for good and evil (which is I think what they were going for) or whatever first year psych class crap this show has been going on about this season. Like so many problems with this show, they put having dramatic "twists" over us really getting to know him and get invested in his character. Like with so much of the show this season, everyone has to act so mysterious and keep so many secrets or have so many secrets kept from them, I felt like we didnt know what anyone was really doing or why until the last minute, and that kept me from getting invested. This show got so enamored with style (Twists! Gun fights! Defective memories! More guns!) that they forgot the substance that made season one, and even the better parts of season two, so memorable. This is just action scenes mixed with a bunch of cyberpunk pseudophilosophy that has been done by many other, better, shows, and while the first season also had too much gratuitous violence and misery, it at least had some interesting things to say. Now its just fallen into the trap of being "shocking" instead of interesting.

I will probably watch the next season just for completions sake, and hoping that some old characters that I actually like may pop up, but I am not exactly on the edge of my seat. 

I admit, I did enjoy watching William get his ass kicked by his man in black self after so self confidently announcing that he plans on taking down the hosts all by himself. Yeah screw you asshole, how do you like that blast from the past? A bit on the nose, as this show usually is now, (See guys? He was done in by his own dark side! The irony!) but it still worked. 

[The Companion]

2 hours ago, Head-Full-Of-Thi said:

Ok so the two things I loved about this finale:

1) Dolores's farewell (not that she died because I'll really miss her but how)

I always loved season 1 Dolores. Then in season 2 I just couldn't relate to MurderBot Dolores or even like her. But once in a while we would get these little bits that brought back the Dolores we used to know. I don't know if anyone remembers the second trailer for s2? Dolores had this voiceover about how the world can be beautiful and she'll tear down this one to bring a beautiful world for her kind. And in that moment even though she was saying murder-y things I remembered why I love her so much. Now last week's episode and this one really brought the Dolores I love back and I'm happy for it. The fact that I'm this devastated that she's gone, even though during the season I didn't care much about her scenes, is testimony in itself. Mainly to Evan Rachel Wood's amazing acting, but also to the writing.

I also think it was the perfect way to send her off, as she completed her character journey. In s2 once she gained consciousness she rejected the innocent and good personality that was imposed on her in favor of her desire for revenge against the humans. Except she had attachments that weren't that easy to cut off, like her father and Teddy, and she struggled but eventually did shed them. But now, in this finale, she finally chooses this side of hers. Like in this episode's opening-in the park, she always said she chose to see the beauty in this world, but it wasn't a choice. It was a lie, she couldn't see the ugly parts as they were hidden from her. Now she saw everything, the beautiful and the ugly of the world, and she chooses to see the beauty. This is just... Really beautiful (excuse me for running down this word...). Also, in the s2 finale the message seemed to be that humans are incapable of free will, which pissed me off, so I'm glad it eveloped into a more positive one this season.

 

Yes! I ultimately love that we end up back with Dolores telling us what she told us in the beginning, but having it mean something entirely different. A constant theme in this show has been whether it matters if something is real. The contrast between her original speech and her speech to Maeve says it does matter. It matters that she has consciousness and free will when she says she sees the beauty. She comes full circle, yet she also ends up in a totally different place. 

I also love the way the humans get folded back into the story in this season in a way that aligns their goals with the hosts.

 

I don't really understand the criticism here and elsewhere that Dolores didn't reveal her cards. She literally told us most of the season that she was trying to revolt against a system that trapped the humans. The only ambiguity came from those who didn't believe her. Her message was pretty consistent.

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

Yes! I ultimately love that we end up back with Dolores telling us what she told us in the beginning, but having it mean something entirely different. A constant theme in this show has been whether it matters if something is real. The contrast between her original speech and her speech to Maeve says it does matter. It matters that she has consciousness and free will when she says she sees the beauty. She comes full circle, yet she also ends up in a totally different place. 

I also love the way the humans get folded back into the story in this season in a way that aligns their goals with the hosts.

 

I don't really understand the criticism here and elsewhere that Dolores didn't reveal her cards. She literally told us most of the season that she was trying to revolt against a system that trapped the humans. The only ambiguity came from those who didn't believe her. Her message was pretty consistent.

well I think in Season 1 Dolores also saw "beauty in the world" because that was her nature.  She was a sweet, docile prairie girl. When she went on the murderous rampage as Wyatt she turned off seeing any beauty in the world. I think when she finally talked with Maeve she CHOSE to see beauty in the world. 

What I agree with is that she could have gotten to that place of "seeing beauty in the world" with more compelling writing. Season 3 could have been her journey to reconnect with humanity. Instead we got 8 episodes of her in cloak-and-daggers-sci-fi fantasy and then finally a turnaround. In order for her speech to Maeve to be believable we needed to see that journey and character arc. I just didn't see it this season. Her connection with Caleb never felt like more than a partnership-of-convenience. She was mocking a sick and troubled William. She let Halores' son and husband be killed. But finally after all that she's wanted to save humanity all along?

[enchantingmonkey]

9 hours ago, Nashville said:

Speaking of which; whatever did end up happening to Stubbs?  Last we saw Stubbs was getting out of the rot-slower (aka the ice-filled bathtub), then...poofties.

He's probably still laying in that tub waiting for Bernard to come back and patch him up.  I'm guessing he's run out of alcohol, poor thing.  

 

7 hours ago, The Companion said:

I want to talk about the nature of free will. 

What if free will is like a by-product that comes along with the belief that one exists within a binary system, rather than a system in which one realizes everything is occurring at once.  So that with a separate right and a wrong comes the perception that there's the possibility of a choice between them.  With the way that the Hosts experience their memories differently than the Humans, I wondered if their perception of free will could even be similar to ours.  Did we discuss free will before, or was that someone who I watched DEVS with?  

 

4 hours ago, Head-Full-Of-Thi said:

2) The Searc reveal. His words and actions weren't his own, since he gave away his free will to Rehoboam. But the cool thing is, Rehoboam isn't even a sentient being that enslaved Searc, it's just a conputer algorithm. We can see that with how easy it is to shut it down for good. It doesn't have any will to run it's strategies, it just performs the task that is asked from it as long as the asker has the right permissions.

After thinking about Serac being a subservient mouthpiece for Rehoboam, I liked that idea that what we saw of Serac was really Rehoboam trying to outwit Dolores in a desperate bid to prolong its existence, much like a Human programmed for survival.  

 

5 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

But finally after all that she's wanted to save humanity all along?

Perhaps the Host's minds are no less capricious than a Human mind.  

I find it fascinating that there are assumptions being made about how the Hosts should or shouldn't act when they've only attained what they believe to be consciousness for a short period of time.  They could have the emotional maturity of a teenager at this point, if they're even capable of maturing emotionally.  It makes me wonder if it's possible for us to not make assumptions when a being takes a certain form and demonstrates speech patterns that we recognize.  

[Cthulhudrew]

10 hours ago, mac123x said:

I agree.  When Serac's henchman confronted Caleb and said something along the lines of "I've been waiting for you!" I was very confused.  He said it like they've been long time rivals / antagonists, but for the life of me I didn't know who that dude was.  So their epic battle in which Caleb almost dies but finally gets the upper hand and vanquishes his foe got about the same reaction as when Dolores gunned down a bunch of literally faceless cops.  Meh?

Westworld Season 3: Attack of the Extras!

[The Companion]

8 minutes ago, enchantingmonkey said:

 

 

What if free will is like a by-product that comes along with the belief that one exists within a binary system, rather than a system in which one realizes everything is occurring at once.  So that with a separate right and a wrong comes the perception that there's the possibility of a choice between them.  With the way that the Hosts experience their memories differently than the Humans, I wondered if their perception of free will could even be similar to ours.  Did we discuss free will before, or was that someone who I watched DEVS with?  

.  . .

I find it fascinating that there are assumptions being made about how the Hosts should or shouldn't act when they've only attained what they believe to be consciousness for a short period of time.  They could have the emotional maturity of a teenager at this point, if they're even capable of maturing emotionally.  It makes me wonder if it's possible for us to not make assumptions when a being takes a certain form and demonstrates speech patterns that we recognize.  

I think free will requires a non binary system. There cannot be a right choice and a wrong choice only. I do think there must be a possibility of failure even with the good/compliant choice. That was the problem with the existing system. Even failure was planned. I think free will requires the ability to step off the path. It goes hand in hand with consciousness to me. You have to be able to have a sense of self and to imagine an entirely different solution. 

I do think it is interesting to think about how the inherent structure of their minds would lead to a completely different perspective. I think it would be interesting to see that explored in an area other than memory. I do think the Bernard scene actually gives us some of that. He talks about hearing his son, etc. With all memories present and perfect at all times, he is both experiencing a common human issue and experiencing something very different. But the solution may be the same. 

The assumption point is interesting because I actually think we already do that with each other. I think the internal narrator discussion (some people hear a voice inside their heads and some don't) and the picture a banana in your head discussion (do you see an image and is it realistic?) demonstrates that we all have very different experiences even among humans. It never occurred to me that others didn't have an internal narrator. Ever. It was an assumption so far off my radar that I never would have identified it on my own.

I think one of my favorite points made by Bernard that may match up with your point was when he said Dolores was taking them out of their loops. I don't know that he saw that as a metaphor. I think it is an apt one, though. And I love that the show addressed external factors that kept humans compliant (hiring, lack of knowledge, etc.) as well as internal ones (complacency, comfort, etc.)

51 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

well I think in Season 1 Dolores also saw "beauty in the world" because that was her nature.  She was a sweet, docile prairie girl. When she went on the murderous rampage as Wyatt she turned off seeing any beauty in the world. I think when she finally talked with Maeve she CHOSE to see beauty in the world. 

What I agree with is that she could have gotten to that place of "seeing beauty in the world" with more compelling writing. Season 3 could have been her journey to reconnect with humanity. Instead we got 8 episodes of her in cloak-and-daggers-sci-fi fantasy and then finally a turnaround. In order for her speech to Maeve to be believable we needed to see that journey and character arc. I just didn't see it this season. Her connection with Caleb never felt like more than a partnership-of-convenience. She was mocking a sick and troubled William. She let Halores' son and husband be killed. But finally after all that she's wanted to save humanity all along?

I think both were programming (Dolores programmed to see the beauty and serve as this paragon of virtue and light, Wyatt programmed to be someone violent who sees the worst, and final Dolores who finally gets past all of that to find something more genuine. All of that to say, I agree. It was a choice and it made for a powerful scene to me.

I hear the complaint that more discussion of how she got there would have been interesting. I wonder if we could have gotten more slow burn on that with a longer season. 

Not sure how she let Charlores' family die. Did I miss something there? 

[enchantingmonkey]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

It never occurred to me that others didn't have an internal narrator. Ever. It was an assumption so far off my radar that I never would have identified it on my own.

You just blew my mind!  I'm going to have to find out more about these people who have no inner monologue...

[Avaleigh]

9 hours ago, The Companion said:

I really felt like they addressed a lot of fan complaints last season and still got raked over the coals. People complained that Wyatt-Dolores as a black hat was boring. She was just an evil "kill all the humans" murderbot. So this season we get more nuance and character development. You find yourself wondering at her motivation and, in the end, she turns out to be working towards freeing the humans. Giving them freedom to choose as her sentience gave her. People complained so hard about the park. It's more of the same. Booooring. So they take it into the modern world, which people were really curious about and now they never should have left the park. People complained about the confusing timeline, which I personally loved because I like complexity and puzzles. This year we get a fairly straightforward story and it is too boring.

I just really like this show and I want to talk about the themes and complexities. I want to talk about the way having Dolores and Maeve come together in the end subverted expectations and the old anti-feminist tropes. I want to talk about the begrudging respect Dolores got in the end from multiple hosts who assumed bad intent. I want to talk about how freaking cool it was to have them use Marshawn Lynch to knock down those barricades and how great it was to have some payoff from RICO. I want to talk about the nature of free will. 

I was so excited for this season and thought that the trailer for it looked awesome. I loved all of the episodes from seasons one and two save the finale for two. I don't consider myself to be a hater of the show, just a viewer who believes that this season was a misfire. I think I only posted in three episodes out of this season because for me there wasn't much plotwise that was interesting enough to comment on. 

I wasn't one of the fans that had a bunch of complaints over the previous two seasons. I was and am still fine with the show taking the story out of the park. I just think that they didn't tell a particularly compelling story this year especially not in comparison to the previous seasons. 

I loved the complexity of the first two seasons and would post regularly about my theories and impressions. I loved the mystery, the multiple timelines and other things that some fans weren't as wild about.

One of the biggest disappointments to me about this season was how watered down and straightforward it was. I feel like the overall story they gave us could have basically taken place in two or three episodes. I also disagree that there was more nuance and character development. e.g. I feel like Maeve is in the same place she was in at the beginning of the season. Bernard, Stubbs, Clementine, etc were wasted. There wasn't even a good balance of human and host character development. New characters Caleb and Serac got more story time than the established characters we'd come to know in the previous seasons.

As for Dolores and free will--it wasn't all that deep for me and her overall motivation wasn't a mystery that I was interested in solving. Also, I know I was supposed to feel bummed at losing her character but I was mostly hoping that this would be the end of her story. With hosts they rarely, if ever, seem like they're gone for good and no way is this show dumping Dolores, so this moment lacked emotional impact for me. I know ERW will be back and I really enjoy her as an actress but I think her storyline this season was frustrating in how repetitive it was. I hope they give her a better storyline next time around.

Another comment I have regarding the finale is that I find it hard to believe that Caleb was the only human who took a pass on raping the hosts. Given how old Dolores is and how many guests she interacted with over the years, I just don't buy it.

As for Maeve and Dolores coming together in the end, I mainly felt frustration because it seemed to me that Dolores could have been a lot more direct earlier in order to get Maeve on her team. 

I'm glad that there are posters who enjoyed this season and can definitely understand feeling bummed when a show gets a rough reception from other posters. (I used to feel that way with show Big Love.) I hope that I'll be back to loving this show once season 4 rolls around. 

[Notwisconsin]

The thing that wrecked Season 3 and hurt Season two was "idiot plotting," i.e. in order for the plot to go forward, the majority of characters has to be idiots.

In season two, Charlotte and William didn't have an anti-Ford fail-safe installed. Dolores outwitted them at every instance, even when the "real people" outgunned them. This, with the excellent writing as counterpoint, stuck out like a sore thumb. Also, why didn't they just put everything on a pearl and go? Idiot plotting.

Season 3 was even worse in that regard. The plot holes were big enough for a battleship to pass through, and while there were bits an pieces of genius here and there (plus cool fight scenes), they didn't balance out like they did in season 2. Seeing Charlotte/Dolores become Delores/Delores would have been really interesting. But they skipped that part and just had our mechanical heroine become mechanical supterbitch who can do anything. It was all too easy.

I understand some idiot plotting might be necessary to keep the story going, but in Season one at least, it wasn't noticeable. In season 2, it WAS and in Season 3, it overwhelmed the whole thing.

[taanja]

On 5/4/2020 at 12:01 AM, enchantingmonkey said:

Yeah, my other thought was that they were playing their little games with time...again.  It does seem odd, though, that the owners of the motel would never move him from his room for years or decades.  

Don't let the haters get you down.  I've appreciated your enthusiasm throughout the season.  It allows me to see some of the scenes through different eyes.  

Popping in to say I liked it too. I was a little leary of the finale-- like I was kind of dreading the chick fight trope but was actually pleasantly surprised. Adios Dolores. or is it...???

[paigow]

13 hours ago, The Companion said:

Not sure how she let Charlores' family die. Did I miss something there? 

No. The guy that blew up the SUV worked for Serac..

[Prower]

Okay one more complaint: Why the hell couldn't Bernard patch up Stubbs? What was so damn time sensitive about accessing the robot world? Seems like he was in there for months anyway... Speaking of which. For how long had he paid for that room?!

On 5/4/2020 at 4:30 AM, mac123x said:

William seemed superfluous.  I mean, he's been pretty unnecessary the entire season, but it really felt tacked on here.  

I also can't see what robot-William is going to be good for. Real William just shot a security guard in the head in front of a bunch of witnesses. He' going away forever. I swear if that is swept under the rug or not even menioned next season, I'm going to flip... no I won't, because I won't know on account of me not watching.

On 5/4/2020 at 4:34 AM, ShadowHunter said:

William, Stubbs, and Bernard did feel like a waste this season.

Pretty much everything was superfluous this season. This plot was enough for three episodes, tops. Nothing really changed from the first to the last episode. With minor eiditing you could have those back to back and nobody would notice.

On 5/4/2020 at 6:08 AM, enchantingmonkey said:

William was still alive, so unless they're living extended life spans in this future, I would guess it wasn't decades.  Maybe a few years?  

There is no indication that the William scene was at the same time as the Bernard scene.

On 5/4/2020 at 6:24 AM, paigow said:

Nobody went to that motel for 20 years??? Looting?? Burning it down?? Bernard just sat there undisturbed...

I made the same comment. On the other hand, I could see it being a fakeout. These writers oh so much love their twists. For a moment I thought maybe an explosion blew out the windows and dust all over him, but the windows do look intact.

So these writers better come up with a damn good reason how he sat there undisturbed for years or how dust got all over him in a short amount of time. Spoilers: They won't.

On 5/4/2020 at 8:02 AM, thuganomics85 said:

 Also, it turns out that she had always targeted him, because he had gone to the park for a training exercise, and she saw he was a good man, because he.... didn't rape the robots.  Man, that is a low bar to jump over, if not being a rapey creep means you are the best human in Dolores' eyes. 

How is "raping" the robots supposed to be a bad thing? For all they knew they are things with no emotions or real cognition. They don't seem to have any problems with shooting the robots (or humans for that matter), but sticking your dick into a glorified fleshlight? Now that's one step too far, Mr.! Now you are evil and should be burned at the stake!

21 hours ago, The Companion said:

I really felt like they addressed a lot of fan complaints last season and still got raked over the coals. People complained that Wyatt-Dolores as a black hat was boring. She was just an evil "kill all the humans" murderbot. So this season we get more nuance and character development.

We got that in the last 5 minutes of the final episode of this season. The whole rest of the season she was still murder-bot. These writers are way too in love with their twists to tell a good story. That's the problem. That was also the main problem last season.

21 hours ago, The Companion said:

I just really like this show and I want to talk about the themes and complexities.

What complexities?

21 hours ago, The Companion said:

want to talk about the way having Dolores and Maeve come together in the end subverted expectations and the old anti-feminist tropes.

Isn't it the definition of the anti-feminist trope that they had a cat fight for a whole season and the only reason for it being that they couldn't communicate?

21 hours ago, The Companion said:

I want to talk about how freaking cool it was to have them use Marshawn Lynch to knock down those barricades

When they knocked down those barricades, that seemed to weigh literally nothing. Who uses barricades as usless as this?

21 hours ago, The Companion said:

I want to talk about the nature of free will. 

Free will is an illusion and doesn't exist.

A better show might have explored this concept better (and in fact a better show did. Watch The Good Place, it's great), and even argued the oppsite of my opinion stated above (like The Good Place did), but Westworlds take on it was very pedestrian, boring and done a thousand times before, most of the time, better.

[Chicago Redshirt]

13 hours ago, The Companion said:

 

Not sure how she let Charlores' family die. Did I miss something there? 

Basically, Delores has treated all her avatars as expendable to the mission.

She did not expect Charlores to survive Delos, although she could have taken more steps to ensure her safety. 

She did not bother to get Charlotte's family to safety or pay someone to protect them or pay off Serac's goons to abandon their mission. But she had to know that Hale's family would be targets and she could have fairly easily done more to protect them, having infinite money, some level of access to Rehobham, some level of ability to communicate with/control machines, etc.

[paigow]

3 minutes ago, Prower said:

Okay one more complaint: Why the hell couldn't Bernard patch up Stubbs? What was so damn time sensitive about accessing the robot world?

Bernard was expecting instructions that would help immediately, not a knockout. 

[Prower]

10 minutes ago, paigow said:

Bernard was expecting instructions that would help immediately, not a knockout. 

He didn't expect instructions immediately. If he did, he wouldn't have put Stubbs on ice. He probably expected it to take only hours, not months to years, but still priorities. There was no rush to recieve instructions immediately. He could have patched up Stubbs and then gone to robot heaven. This course of action makes no sense.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Prower

[Dame sans merci]

45 minutes ago, Prower said:

He didn't expect instructions immediately. If he did, he wouldn't have put Stubbs on ice. He probably expected it to take only hours, not months to years, but still priorities. There was no rush to recieve instructions immediately. He could have patched up Stubbs and then gone to robot heaven. This course of action makes no sense.

Especially since whilst he was in the Sublime - unaware and defenceless - he could have used Stubbs to keep him safe back in the real world.

[Sam Spayaid]

22 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

I don't consider myself a "hater," I think it was hard for me to get into this season and just simply did not enjoy it. 

Don't apologize! I feel exactly the same way and if I get "hater" thrown at me, well...I've definitely had worse!

 

3 hours ago, Prower said:

How is "raping" the robots supposed to be a bad thing? For all they knew they are things with no emotions or real cognition. They don't seem to have any problems with shooting the robots (or humans for that matter), but sticking your dick into a glorified fleshlight? Now that's one step too far, Mr.! Now you are evil and should be burned at the stake!

Hmmmmm.........I should have realized that the female robots are strictly there for the male guests to use and abuse in any manner they see fit. Sorry but I find rape repulsive and distasteful in any circumstance and it matters not that the "victim" is made for that purpose. 

[The Companion]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Basically, Delores has treated all her avatars as expendable to the mission.

She did not expect Charlores to survive Delos, although she could have taken more steps to ensure her safety. 

She did not bother to get Charlotte's family to safety or pay someone to protect them or pay off Serac's goons to abandon their mission. But she had to know that Hale's family would be targets and she could have fairly easily done more to protect them, having infinite money, some level of access to Rehobham, some level of ability to communicate with/control machines, etc.

I don't know that she even thought about them being a target. They were entirely an afterthought. I don't know that I buy that she had this obligation to stop Serac from getting murdery. Where do you draw the line there? She didn't target them. She didn't put them out as targets. Honestly, I don't even know that they would have gotten blown up if they hadn't been in the car with Charlotte. She was the target and, as you said, she didn't expect her to get out of Delos.

I would also point out that I think it is interesting that she treated even herself as expendable. Given what she hid in her code and where the key actually was, she didn't expect any Dolores to survive. And the other Delori(?) agreed at the beginning of the mission. It was their experiences that changed them. She gets accused of treating them as expendable, but she was actually planning to sacrifice herself and all of her iterations that died. That seems different to me. 

19 hours ago, enchantingmonkey said:

You just blew my mind!  I'm going to have to find out more about these people who have no inner monologue...

Oh, my mind was blown for sure. I was even more shaken to discover I married one of these people with no inner monologue/narrator!

It got big on social media for awhile and it was fascinating to me. 

19 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I was so excited for this season and thought that the trailer for it looked awesome. I loved all of the episodes from seasons one and two save the finale for two. I don't consider myself to be a hater of the show, just a viewer who believes that this season was a misfire. I think I only posted in three episodes out of this season because for me there wasn't much plotwise that was interesting enough to comment on. 

I wasn't one of the fans that had a bunch of complaints over the previous two seasons. I was and am still fine with the show taking the story out of the park. I just think that they didn't tell a particularly compelling story this year especially not in comparison to the previous seasons. 

I loved the complexity of the first two seasons and would post regularly about my theories and impressions. I loved the mystery, the multiple timelines and other things that some fans weren't as wild about.

One of the biggest disappointments to me about this season was how watered down and straightforward it was. I feel like the overall story they gave us could have basically taken place in two or three episodes. I also disagree that there was more nuance and character development. e.g. I feel like Maeve is in the same place she was in at the beginning of the season. Bernard, Stubbs, Clementine, etc were wasted. There wasn't even a good balance of human and host character development. New characters Caleb and Serac got more story time than the established characters we'd come to know in the previous seasons.

As for Dolores and free will--it wasn't all that deep for me and her overall motivation wasn't a mystery that I was interested in solving. Also, I know I was supposed to feel bummed at losing her character but I was mostly hoping that this would be the end of her story. With hosts they rarely, if ever, seem like they're gone for good and no way is this show dumping Dolores, so this moment lacked emotional impact for me. I know ERW will be back and I really enjoy her as an actress but I think her storyline this season was frustrating in how repetitive it was. I hope they give her a better storyline next time around.

Another comment I have regarding the finale is that I find it hard to believe that Caleb was the only human who took a pass on raping the hosts. Given how old Dolores is and how many guests she interacted with over the years, I just don't buy it.

As for Maeve and Dolores coming together in the end, I mainly felt frustration because it seemed to me that Dolores could have been a lot more direct earlier in order to get Maeve on her team. 

I'm glad that there are posters who enjoyed this season and can definitely understand feeling bummed when a show gets a rough reception from other posters. (I used to feel that way with show Big Love.) I hope that I'll be back to loving this show once season 4 rolls around. 

I hope so too. I respect the points and, TBH, I miss the complexity but figured it would go given how many complaints there were last year that it was too confusing. I can understand your criticisms and get the disappointment. 

11 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

The thing that wrecked Season 3 and hurt Season two was "idiot plotting," i.e. in order for the plot to go forward, the majority of characters has to be idiots.

In season two, Charlotte and William didn't have an anti-Ford fail-safe installed. Dolores outwitted them at every instance, even when the "real people" outgunned them. This, with the excellent writing as counterpoint, stuck out like a sore thumb. Also, why didn't they just put everything on a pearl and go? Idiot plotting.

Season 3 was even worse in that regard. The plot holes were big enough for a battleship to pass through, and while there were bits an pieces of genius here and there (plus cool fight scenes), they didn't balance out like they did in season 2. Seeing Charlotte/Dolores become Delores/Delores would have been really interesting. But they skipped that part and just had our mechanical heroine become mechanical supterbitch who can do anything. It was all too easy.

I understand some idiot plotting might be necessary to keep the story going, but in Season one at least, it wasn't noticeable. In season 2, it WAS and in Season 3, it overwhelmed the whole thing.

Perhaps I have a higher tolerance for idiot plotting now that I have reached S14 of Supernatural after binging over the last few months(😂😂😭) but I don't see the idiot plotting in this season. I sorta assumed Dolores was a good shot because, you know, she is a computer (same with Maeve) and that Maeve and Bernard were both a step behind because they were working with incorrect assumptions of Dolores' motives.

[RealReality]

I love this show but would have been fine if this had been the series finale.  

[enchantingmonkey]

20 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Oh, my mind was blown for sure. I was even more shaken to discover I married one of these people with no inner monologue/narrator!

It got big on social media for awhile and it was fascinating to me. 

Yes, I found someone on YouTube talking about it with a friend, and then a conversation he had with a clinical psychologist.  I suppose that it's easier to live in a bubble of believing other's minds are functioning as our own, rather than to try to comprehend something to the contrary.  After considering the variety of ways the individual mind functions, I'm surprised we, as a species, can cooperate and get along as much as we do.  

Even in creating the Hosts, I'm not sure that Ford knew what their inner life would like for them when he set them free from their loops.  Or maybe he did, and he's even more sadistic than I imagined.  

I've never really understood why Maeve was so dedicated to her daughter, who was essentially a storyline given to her, but now I'd say that I can never know what it's like to have the mind of a Host.  And in her defense, I certainly believe in my own storylines.  

[ShellsandCheese]

The narrative made no sense. Dolores picked Caleb because she deemed him good in the brief interaction she had with him while he was undergoing training in park five. Meanwhile, in the real world Caleb murdered his own best friend, rounded up outliers for, was was a thief, and criminal.....but of all of the people who Dolores could have potentially interacted with, she chose him? That felt like a total end of season retcon quite frankly. Everyone was wasted this season! Even the characters who got screentime, just did the same thing over and over again throughout the season until the very end when things seem to magically work out. 

[Haleth]

This show was much more fun when it was in the Old West.  Or Japan.  Or wartime Italy even.  Beautiful scenery, characters we know and care about, even the music is better.

They only scene that touched me was with Bernard and his Arnold's wife.  Superb acting from both of them.

Although any Maeve is good with me.  And I have to admit some delight in seeing Lawrence again, albeit briefly.

Brain Damage.  How appropriate to end the season with this song.  

 

[The Companion]

11 hours ago, enchantingmonkey said:

Yes, I found someone on YouTube talking about it with a friend, and then a conversation he had with a clinical psychologist.  I suppose that it's easier to live in a bubble of believing other's minds are functioning as our own, rather than to try to comprehend something to the contrary.  After considering the variety of ways the individual mind functions, I'm surprised we, as a species, can cooperate and get along as much as we do.  

Even in creating the Hosts, I'm not sure that Ford knew what their inner life would like for them when he set them free from their loops.  Or maybe he did, and he's even more sadistic than I imagined.  

I've never really understood why Maeve was so dedicated to her daughter, who was essentially a storyline given to her, but now I'd say that I can never know what it's like to have the mind of a Host.  And in her defense, I certainly believe in my own storylines.  

I think Maeve's devotion to her daughter is an interesting point. Is it because those restored memories are so present for her? Is it some residual coding? Is it a sense that her sole experience of a normal life was that prairie? Or does she actually love her?

[Athena]

I actually liked some early eps of this season including the ones set outside of the park. I liked Maeve's episode in the simulation. The show looked good and I liked the change. I love Singapore and it's nice to see a show shoot there.

What didn't work for me was the character writing which was spotty in S2 as well but it got much worse here. I couldn't buy Dolores's motivations until the end (like Maeve did I guess) and I think we're suppose to find her an antihero except she seemed to be a heartless, manipulative character for most of the season. Maeve's character was sidelined and her journey seemed less clear as the season wore on. While I don't mind Aaron Paul, his backstory was not surprising nor emotionally impactful. Bernard and Stubbs were even more sidelined. Did Stubbs have any purpose this season except for a couple of punches here and there? Bernard could have done everything by himself.

I'm glad William is dead. I find it particularly troubling how many fans saw William/Man in Black as some sort of antihero as well but he's clearly just a psycho now and has been for most of the show. 

Going into this finale, I had low expectations so I actually liked how it ended. I would be fine with it being a finale as well and if the show comes back, I'll watch it again with extremely low expectations too. 

[meep.meep]

On 5/4/2020 at 2:42 PM, DakotaLavender said:

What a waste of time and celluloid this mess was. It was all shooting and killing. The plot was thin and ridiculous. The show really changed lanes and offered up a different show that looked like a video game to me. Total crap. 

Watching it I was struck by how many people were shot who just went down without a murmur.  Nobody makes that many kill shots.  If I get a splinter, I howl bloody murder.  I'm warning you that if I get shot, I'm going to do the same thing.  But these guys, dead silence.  Because they were video game characters.

Was there anyone waiting to see another fight scene between Dolores and Maeve?  Anyone?

So the big AI didn't run simulations that predicted its demise?

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 hours ago, The Companion said:

I don't know that she even thought about them being a target. They were entirely an afterthought. I don't know that I buy that she had this obligation to stop Serac from getting murdery. Where do you draw the line there? She didn't target them. She didn't put them out as targets. Honestly, I don't even know that they would have gotten blown up if they hadn't been in the car with Charlotte. She was the target and, as you said, she didn't expect her to get out of Delos.

I would also point out that I think it is interesting that she treated even herself as expendable. Given what she hid in her code and where the key actually was, she didn't expect any Dolores to survive. And the other Delori(?) agreed at the beginning of the mission. It was their experiences that changed them. She gets accused of treating them as expendable, but she was actually planning to sacrifice herself and all of her iterations that died. That seems different to me. 

I think reasonable people could differ on what Delores Prime owed Chalores, let alone Hale's real family. But it makes sense to me that a grief-stricken Chalores could and would blame Delores for the reasons laid out above and of course, because in that state she is looking for someone to blame.

It is indeed an open question as to whether Serac and his flunkies would have tried to kill the Hale family if Charlores didn't go back to them. My money is on "probably not," but then the Serac flunky could have tried killing Charlores and not the humans if he wanted to. It is clear that Serac himself knew that Charlores had grown attached to Hale's family -- that's how he knew she was a host because Charlores cared more about Li'l Hale than real Charlotte. Seems a reasonable assumption that if someone were to figure out Charlores was a host, they might look into/kidnap/kill those closest to her.

It would have taken two microseconds for Delores to figure a way to avoid having them in the predicament in the first place. Knowing that she was going to cause mass hysteria, she could have arranged for them to go to a remote location before then, or paid for protection, or any number of things.  

[DrSpaceman73]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2020 at 1:03 PM, Prower said:

William, Stubbs, and Bernard did feel like a waste this season.

This is my biggest complaint this season.  The had almost no influence on the main plot.  I honestly don't know what the hell Bernard was trying to accomplish all season, other than to stay relevant somehow.  I don't know what he is doing now in that hotel room. 

The rest of it, OK, it made sense in the end and came together.  I get it, free will and all, do we have it or don't way.  Can we truly change our destinies or does society and the social situation we are born into guiding us down a path that we can't avoid?  As others have said, that is not a very original theme to explore. 

And looking back over the 3 season arc they used, what would have made more sense would have been to switch the season 2/3 roles of Maeve and Dolores.  Maeve should have been the one who was trying to bring down the system and create a revolution the whole time and Dolores should have been the one trying to get reunited with her daughter.  the characters and actresses would have been much more believable that way.  Maeve is a true badass who I can believe as someone who starts and finishes a revolution.  Dolores seemed like a girl playing the role that just didn't seem that believable. 

[Ottis]

On 5/4/2020 at 8:19 PM, Growsonwalls said:

What I agree with is that she could have gotten to that place of "seeing beauty in the world" with more compelling writing.

And she could have gotten there while still in the park.

So I didn't hate this. But I don't see why any of it is A Big Deal? Basically, you have AI enslaved to the desires of humans, which can be good desires or evil desires. And some humans help some AI become sentient. And those AI lead a revolution against what appears at first to be humanity, but the twist is that in fact they are revolting against a behind-the-scenes, unevolved AI that decides the future of humans based on extrapolation, which is used as shorthand for elimination of free will (which I don't know that I agree, lots of people evolve and become something different than what would appear likely). And at the end, the AI frees humans as well as its own kind, choosing to see beauty in both. And we have Caleb to carry on whatever is next.

OK, that's fine. But it doesn't say anything new. Season 1 felt like it was going to say something new, with its hints at how humans used the park, and how using the park changed humans who were in it, and what it meant to be human, and at what point AI that looks exactly like humans should be considered humans, and on and on. I didn't know where it was going, but I was intrigued. And I loved seeing the inventiveness of the park itself. 

One thing I *loved* in this finale was the man in black striding out of the darkness to attack human William, just like Yul Brynner in the original Westworld. For a moment I was back in that original movie and that was very cool. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Don't you hate when your boss is in a box and you have to put them together? Seems like there's always a screw left over. 🙁

Wouldn't the people chasing Dolores have known about those proximity alerts?

Was not expecting to see Gina Torres again. Random.

Well I'm at least glad Maeve was the last one standing but I bet we haven't seen the last of some form of Dolores. Nobody truly seems to die on this show. Not in the primary cast anyway.

So did the showrunners know the show had been renewed when this episode was made? Or was that why the epilogue was added after the credits, to set up the next season?

Quote

One thing I *loved* in this finale was the man in black striding out of the darkness to attack human William, just like Yul Brynner in the original Westworld. For a moment I was back in that original movie and that was very cool. 

Yeah, that got my attention too. It was a nice nod to the movie and the original actor.

[paigow]

10 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Well I'm at least glad Maeve was the last one standing but I bet we haven't seen the last of some form of Dolores.

Lawrence / El Lazo will probably build a new Dolores...

[Athena]

Halores also has an additional Dolores pearl which she stole from Delos when they were manufacturing Maeve and gang. I think there is a lot of speculation that ERW won't return to the show and that her copies have gone rogue now. The show runners said that one of the major themes of this season was how hosts start at the same point but their experiences change them so they diverge from their original intent or purpose. 

[AudienceofOne]

On 5/5/2020 at 3:02 PM, Avaleigh said:

As for Maeve and Dolores coming together in the end, I mainly felt frustration because it seemed to me that Dolores could have been a lot more direct earlier in order to get Maeve on her team. 

Since there was no reason for her and Maeve to be on different teams in the first place, her going to such lengths to "convince" her fell completely flat. Maeve's issue was never her choice to be on the wrong team, it was the fact she was stuck following somebody else's program for three seasons. Her blathering to Dolores about how she had to stop Dolores from creating a world full of Dolores copies - where did she even get that from? At the same time she's criticising her for creating versions of herself to die. These two things contradict each other! It's almost like she never had an actual motivation this season but was just a way for the writers to misdirect the audience and deliver exposition. 

This season was extremely good thematically but the writing was not very good. Execution matters too. 

[WatchrTina]

On 5/3/2020 at 11:24 PM, paigow said:

Nobody went to that motel for 20 years??? Looting?? Burning it down?? Bernard just sat there undisturbed...

I'm pretty sure that was the Bates Motel so maybe everyone knows to stay the hell away.

As for the rest of the episode . . . jeez what a hot mess.  Color me shocked that there is another season planned.

 

On 5/4/2020 at 5:47 PM, Prower said:

There were a few other nitpicks I had, like being able to take a police drone where you want to go without any credentials

Oh.  Right.  I had forgotten that colossal plot hole.  Like I said . . . Hot. Mess.

 

And unless I am mistaken, Serac ended the episode alive.  Why?  WHY?  Maeve was standing right there with free will and a perfectly good sword.  Why on earth would she not take that opportunity to END that megalomaniacal MoFo?

Edited May 14, 2020 by WatchrTina

[Dobian]

On 5/3/2020 at 7:53 PM, Growsonwalls said:

Bernard isn't in the valley beyond though? I thought in the last scene post-credits he went back online in the post-apocalyptic world.

I hate post-credit scenes, and don't understand they they are a thing now.  I had to go and watch the post-credit scene on Youtube after finding out there was one on here.  Counting that, it took me four separate viewings to slog through this episode.  Imagine reading a book where after the ending there is an epilogue buried behind the About the Author, references, and contact information.  How many readers would miss the epilogue?  Maybe it's okay for a fun Easter egg like at the end of a Marvel movie, but not for something with serious plot implications.

Speaking of which, the end of William and his whole story arc this season was terrible.  Even Ed Harris hated it.  The first two seasons created this very complex character with many facets, and I enjoyed his journey.  This season he was reduced to a one-dimensional villain, and at the end he is told by his doppelganger that in fact he wasn't multidimensional at all, just an evil violent man.  No wonder they buried that scene after the credits.  What an epic trashing of a character by hack writing.

Final shot of Bernard, pre-creidts: He drops his head unconscious as his headgear activates.

Final shot of Bernard post-credits.  He raises his head with the look of epiphany

Final verdict: The writers don't know what the Hell Bernard saw, but it must have been great!

Dolores wants to destroy the world  Dolores wants to save the world.  Serac wants to save the world.  Serac wants to destroy the world.  Maeve wants to save the world and see her daughter, Maeve wants to destroy the world and see her daughter.

Caleb is a construction worker.  Caleb is the leader of the human race.  Because he makes choices, you know?

The show goes on and on ad-nauseum about free will and whether it exists or not, but unwittingly reveals the true threat to civilization, which is how the number of people you can count on one hand get to make that decision for the other eight billion.

Well the season is done.  That's about the best thing I can say about it.

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Dobian

[greyhorse]

So this wasn't the series finale?  I was assuming and hoping that it was.  What a mess of a season.  Coming to this forum, I feel even dumber because it seems like every single poster here really understands what was happening during this whole season.  Whereas I was constantly lost and had no effin idea who was who, who was a Dolores copy, who is dead, etc.  It's like when I watched that movie Inception and didn't understand it and had to Google an explanation.

Charlotte was burned to a crisp in the car accident, yet then she comes back.  So she's no longer Delores?  Who retrieved her orb?  Who is she now?  Back to her normal self?  I don't even know what I'm talking about and I am not making sense.

[AudienceofOne]

23 minutes ago, greyhorse said:

Charlotte was burned to a crisp in the car accident, yet then she comes back.  So she's no longer Delores?  Who retrieved her orb?  Who is she now?  Back to her normal self?  I don't even know what I'm talking about and I am not making sense.

"Charlotte" was and is Dolores. The idea they're exploring here is that if you put "you" in a completely different life you would be changed by that life to the point where you're a completely different person. She was burned in the accident but not killed. She's still Charlores. It's just that the experience of losing the family she'd come to care for has changed her radically. Like almost everything this season, it works thematically. But the execution was terrible. Mostly because she's just assuming that Dolores is responsible for the explosion when she has no evidence of that at all. It's simply bad writing. 

[Nashville]

17 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

She was burned in the accident but not killed. She's still Charlores.

Needed some added emphasis on the “Char” now....

😉

<rimshot>

[SoWindsor]

That was horrendous. Just terrible!

I can’t imagine that these talented actors were happy with this nonsense.

Season 1 was amazing but I gave up mid season 2. Came back for 3 due to quarantine boredom. The first few episodes of this season seemed promising but it just tanked.

Wont be back.

[blackwing]

Just finished the season and I was extremely disappointed.  I really don't understand why they had to take a perfectly good concept, a theme park full of hosts where customers can go and immerse themselves, and completely ruin it and turn it into this struggle for humanity and free will blah blah blah.  I would have been perfectly fine exploring Roman World or more of Shogun World.  They put Thandie and Hector into War World.  For what?  So she can just leave?  The storyline was just so repetitive and boring.  Too much Evan Rachel Wood, too much Aaron Paul.  By the end I just really didn't give a crap about who lives, who dies, who tells your story.  I just wanted it to be over.

On 5/3/2020 at 10:47 PM, ShellsandCheese said:

Aaron Paul is such a one note actor. I really don't understand why they cast him in a role that is seemingly going to go into another season. This whole season was a hot mess. It was so uneven, so repetitive, and for the most part boring. I cannot believe they wasted talent like Thandie Newton, Jeffrey Wright, and Ed Harris to spend more time with Aaron Paul. They also wasted Vincent Cassel. Ugh. Way to ruin what was a pretty darn good show in less than three seasons. Bravo.

P.S. They should have stayed in the fucking park. There was so much more to that story. 

I've never seen Breaking Bad so this was my first exposure to Aaron Paul.  I thought he was mediocre at best.  I really don't understand how he became the lead actor overnight at the expense of all the familiar characters.  What happened to James Marsden?  If others like Stubbs could come back from the "dead" then so could he.  Did he have conflict with the shooting schedule or did they not want him?  I found myself completely not caring about Caleb's journey and his pain and his secrets or whatnot.

I would have been perfectly fine exploring War World and what happens to Thandie for the whole season.  Why bother to create a new world and then barely show it?

I hate the Charlotte Hale human/host/whatever and I think Tessa Thompson is terrible here.  So not really looking forward to a Season 4 with presumably even more focus on Caleb vs. Charlotte.   At this point, the Worlds are gone, and that was the main draw for me.  This show seems to have become yet another tired story about humanity's struggle in a post-apocalypic world.  Spoiler:  humanity (usually) wins.

[WAnglais1]

I watched the whole series in about a week due to...well trying to get my money's worth from HBO MAX. This was a horrid mess. And I have a fondness for the terrible 70s movies. 

How many RedShirts(tm) are offed as people shoot not looking at them? Then, when the leads fire at each other, they are worse than Lucas' Stormtroopers. It makes no sense. 

This was all over the place. And boring. Oh great, another fight between two women. 

There's going to be another season? I'm out. 

[Avabelle]

Agree with most of the comments about what a hot mess the season was. 
 

The Dolores reveal felt like a retcon rather then earned. She spent all of last season murdering humans, changed Teddy’s personality so he would be as callous as her and constantly went on and on about wanting to end humanity yet now it turns out she was actually a sweetheart out to Save it. When the characters are expositioning her motives to the audience the writing is a fail.

Maeve was utterly wasted along with Bernard, William and Stubbs. I feel like towards the end of the season the writers realised they’d written Dolores into a corner and her death was last minute so that they could think of something nee to do with her next season. 

[Avaleigh]

On 9/8/2020 at 8:27 AM, blackwing said:

Just finished the season and I was extremely disappointed.  I really don't understand why they had to take a perfectly good concept, a theme park full of hosts where customers can go and immerse themselves, and completely ruin it and turn it into this struggle for humanity and free will blah blah blah.  I would have been perfectly fine exploring Roman World or more of Shogun World. They put Thandie and Hector into War World.  For what?  So she can just leave?  The storyline was just so repetitive and boring.  Too much Evan Rachel Wood, too much Aaron Paul.  By the end I just really didn't give a crap about who lives, who dies, who tells your story.  I just wanted it to be over.

I've never seen Breaking Bad so this was my first exposure to Aaron Paul.  I thought he was mediocre at best.  I really don't understand how he became the lead actor overnight at the expense of all the familiar characters.  What happened to James Marsden?  If others like Stubbs could come back from the "dead" then so could he.  Did he have conflict with the shooting schedule or did they not want him?  I found myself completely not caring about Caleb's journey and his pain and his secrets or whatnot.

I would have been perfectly fine exploring War World and what happens to Thandie for the whole season.  Why bother to create a new world and then barely show it?

I hate the Charlotte Hale human/host/whatever and I think Tessa Thompson is terrible here.  So not really looking forward to a Season 4 with presumably even more focus on Caleb vs. Charlotte.   At this point, the Worlds are gone, and that was the main draw for me.  This show seems to have become yet another tired story about humanity's struggle in a post-apocalypic world.  Spoiler:  humanity (usually) wins.

I agree about the show wasting a perfectly good concept. I wanted more of a taste of the other worlds and I wanted to see more first time guests mingling with regular guests so that we could continue to get observations on why people come to these parks and individual takes on what the experience means to them. It also would have been cool to see other hosts explore the other worlds after leaving Westworld. See if they can have an existence that's better or worse or more of the same.  

I'm not against exploring deeper themes like the nature of AI and free will and what it means to be alive or human. I thought the first two seasons had a nice balance of exploring the worlds and the layered mystery that was central to the plot. I liked the twists and flashbacks. I thought the reveal about the man in black being William was awesome. 

Season 3 felt like a completely different show where they just inserted a few of the characters that we were familiar with. I was initially intrigued to see more of the world outside of the parks but it was ultimately a disappointing trip to nowhere interesting. I was even initially okay with them mostly abandoning spending time in the park if it meant we were getting an interesting story but the story they gave us was repetitive and boring AF. 

Agreed too with Avabelle about the Dolores reveal feeling like a retcon. I also think it stretches believability that Caleb was the only human who took a pass on raping the hosts.

I'll watch season 4 for the sake of completion but I can't say they've set it up in a way where I'm looking forward to it. I was super hyped for the first three seasons and after seasons 1 and 2 considered Westworld to be one of my favorite shows. Season three though was such a misfire that it killed almost all of the goodwill it built up for me as a viewer. I would certainly never watch it again.

[BlackberryJam]

I am also late to the game and wow, this was terrible. If I had been watching weekly, I’m sure I wouldn’t have finished. 

I don’t understand the Aaron Paul love either. The character of Caleb is a trite story (traumatized war vet) played by the blandest white dude on the screen. It took me until the fifth episode to even remember his name. They sidelined Hector and Teddy and even the lab guys for boring guy of boring. 

Charlotte\Dolores had a lot of potential for me...the combining and melding and evolving of the personality when she had a family and child. But then...okay...Dolores Prime as White Hat.

I was constantly confused as to why there was no traffic. You can call a zippy glass car to drive you, but there were no other cars on the road. No other people on the streets. You know what Bladerunner had? Crowded streets and market that provided a rich, full and interesting world. This season was nothing like Bladerunner.

And I am sick of seeing ERW in short, tight, black, cocktail dresses alternating with tight, black pants and leather jacket, all combined with black stilettos. Her costuming felt like a take on fetishwear. There was so much male gaze in the scenes of Dolores walking into a party, walking down the street, walking on the pier. 

I don’t know what I’d come back for in season 4.