S04.E16: New York, New York, New York

[watcher1006]

2 hours ago, milner said:

Randall made a plan to send his moms way for 9 months and never consulted her husband!!

Yeah, it may reflect badly on Randall but really it seems like the writers forgot all about Miguel in this episode. Was it at all mentioned at any time why husband Miguel wasn't on the trip? There could be plenty of reasons why he wasn't there but it seems like an explanation or a scene involving a discussion with Miguel was in order.

Randall may be a councilman now and Beth is doing her thing with the studio but would a 9 month stint in a clinical trial really depend on Kevin's show biz money? Randall was making a pile of money before before he quit the business world. If that has all been squandered and if the whole thing did depend on Kevin and Randall was presuming his brother would pay for it then double shame on Randall.

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, watcher1006 said:

Yeah, it may reflect badly on Randall but really it seems like the writers forgot all about Miguel in this episode. Was it at all mentioned at any time why husband Miguel wasn't on the trip? There could be plenty of reasons why he wasn't there but it seems like an explanation or a scene involving a discussion with Miguel was in order.

Randall may be a councilman now and Beth is doing her thing with the studio but would a 9 month stint in a clinical trial really depend on Kevin's show biz money? Randall was making a pile of money before before he quit the business world. If that has all been squandered and if the whole thing did depend on Kevin and Randall was presuming his brother would pay for it then double shame on Randall.

Yes, Kevin's money would be needed for Rebecca to participate in that trial.  She would have to move to St Louis for those months.  Someone would have to pay for an apartment for her.  The costs of the medication would be covered though.   Randall and Beth cannot have enough money to front that with her business and his reduced salary.   Randall and Beth would have eaten through their savings last year when he wasn't working and spending money left and right on his campaign.   She was also out of work or working a lower paying job last season as well.  

[MadyGirl1987]

2 hours ago, ams1001 said:

I was expecting "Molly" to be Marc. Though I guess those flashbacks could be in another episode.

That was my reading of it... I do not think we have seen the last of him.

I just couldn’t with Randall this episode. I get that it’s in his personality to want to control everything and be aggressive in treatment but you don’t just bulldoze over your siblings that way regarding medical care for a parent. And I totally sided with Kevin when he said let’s just wait until tomorrow and let her have today. Randall’s always been intense, but this is a whole new level. I’m kinda wondering how Beth feels about all this, and what she would have to say.

[mommalib]

2 hours ago, Roxie said:

Randall didn't have to carry that guilt - he chose to.  He's been an adult with access to counseling and self-help books for 20 years and hasn't chosen to let go.  And Kevin didn't say that he didn't think about (mourn) Jack's death.  He just doesn't think about the useless "what if's."

Having choice doesn't always make things easier. That was his father it's not crazy for him to wonder what things would have been like if Jack didn't go back into that house. The difference between Randall and Kevin is that Randall was told by Jack himself that he had to be the strong and responsible one. That was put upon him even as a kid on top of his own issues.

[HollyGoLitely333]

Mandy Moore's playing of knowing better that the family needed to get off that train was perfection. Her deadpan response to Jack's insisting they stay on the train: "okay 😇 *blink* *blink*"...and later "yeah, we're going to QUEENS." Her face was great. 

OMFG they want me to hate Randall? They got it. Oooh he grinds me gears so bad. What an insufferable ass. For decades. 

For absolute sure Molly is Marc and Kate is seeing him still. For a fleeting moment, I worried they'd show her harming herself after they left and while she waited for Marc. There's clearly a lot going on under the surface. I also thought they might have padded the actress a little more to imply immediate weight gain between the cabin showdown with Marc and the NYC trip. 

I have less than zero interest in the alternate reality world episode next week. Boo. Prove me wrong, show. 

Are we going to see Uncle Nicky again this season?

[t7686]

Oh Randall. Sigh, he needs a redemption arc because he is spiraling straight into dickdom real fast. But in the same vein I totally see where he’s coming from. Such good writing! Mandy Moore is doing amazing this season- though on a shallow note her old lady practical bob with the practical glasses bug me. For a woman who looks so young and put together in most timelines, why does she look so frumpy towards the end?
 

ANYWAY  I’m team Kevin, dude was at WORK and Randall couldn’t let him have a moment. I think the acting thing paid off, why is the family still not taking it seriously? He can never get a nice moment to himself- which now that I think of it between Rebecca not getting the Met to herself until this episode they’re both very similar in many ways. And Randall with his trying to take care of her instead of listening to her makes him a lot like his father.  Good stuff. 
 

Still that scene of poor teen Randall wanting to just take that night back and save his father is heartbreaking. Kevin not being there the night the father died is probably the crux of all their issues. Hopefully at some point someone will be brave enough to say it hopefully in front of a therapist- which they all need. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by t7686

[RedDelicious]

I also have zero interest in the alternate reality episode. I’m not even sure I’m going to watch. I can’t stand Jack/Milo (*ducks)

[mommalib]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t think Randall is a bad guy or a bad son (I think he is a good man and a good son), but this time Kevin was 100% in the right and Randall needed to shush. Yes it’s true he’s been the more constant presence and emotional support in Rebecca’s life when Kevin was off doing his own thing (not saying that makes Kevin a bad son but that’s the truth), so I get how he is protective and thinks he knows everything. But that doesn’t mean it’s true. Also he was being an ass to his brother. Someone can be coming from a well intentioned place and still be WRONG and uncompromising. 

I didn't say Randall was right about the clinical trial but based off of history I can understand why he carries things the way he does particularly when it comes to Rebecca, It's great that Kevin finally decides to take some of the responsibility where their mother is concerned at almost 40 years old but Randall has been in that particular drivers seat since he was a teenager.

[maggiemae]

Oh good grief - Randall in that hat?

[ECM1231]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Actually, it was Dave Annable playing Kirby

I thought he looked familiar but couldn't place him. He was Justin Walker on Brothers and Sisters. He looks much older than his 40 years; I guess it's all the gray.

Randall was insufferable at the acting showcase and  being very dickish towards Kevin. He could barely eke out a compliment. Season 1 Randall was my favorite. I loathe him now. 

[NUguy514]

21 minutes ago, mommalib said:

I didn't say Randall was right about the clinical trial but based off of history I can understand why he carries things the way he does particularly when it comes to Rebecca, It's great that Kevin finally decides to take some of the responsibility where their mother is concerned at almost 40 years old but Randall has been in that particular drivers seat since he was a teenager.

As Kevin said at the beginning of the episode when Mr. Imperious was tsk-tsk-ing his Lesser Siblings for not immediately acquiescing to his loudly expressed omniscience about all things Rebecca-related, Mr. Imperious never allowed Kevin or Kate to have a voice or opinion where Rebecca was concerned.  Mr. Imperious has always known best, as he would proudly tell you.  Any opportunity, however sporadic, Kevin took to help Rebecca out (like trying to set her up with Dave Annable) was only ever met with eye rolls and condescending sighs, after which Kevin was treated to a wonderful lecture about how shitty a son he is and how perfect a son Mr. Imperious is.  At a certain point, you just stop trying because you can never win.

It's not even Randall's horrible attitude where Rebecca was concerned: every time he rolled his eyes at Kevin's work (yes, Randall, work), my blood pressure increased.  He's so disrespectful and dismissive of Kevin, even though Kevin has succeeded in a field with one of the very lowest success rates imaginable.  I can't think of a more earned slam than Kevin's money-related one; Kevin has been subject to Randall's condescension for so long that it was very satisfying to see him turn the tables for even a second.  It may not have been the kindest thing to say, but Randall more than earned it, and I laughed out loud when Kevin said it.

Another point in Kevin's favor: not living in regret.  It's useless and keeps you from being present in the here and now.  First of all, Randall, you had about as much chance of preventing Jack's death as I did.  Second of all, you want to play the what-if game?  Let's play it: if Jack hadn't died, you would've gone to Howard like you'd planned, never met Beth (I'm sure next week will try to address that, but, no, he would not have met her), and never had your beautiful daughters.

I'll never forget the first time I heard someone say, in the context of her own self-reflections, "Would you rather be right or happy?"  Randall is so focused on being right 136,000% of the time that he so often cannot be happy, which is a shame, but he goes about it in such an insufferable way that I want to punch him in the face.  In conclusion, Randall:

Also, Mandy Moore was absolutely exquisite in this episode.

[MBayGal]

23 minutes ago, NUguy514 said:

As Kevin said at the beginning of the episode when Mr. Imperious was tsk-tsk-ing his Lesser Siblings for not immediately acquiescing to his loudly expressed omniscience about all things Rebecca-related, Mr. Imperious never allowed Kevin or Kate to have a voice or opinion where Rebecca was concerned.  Mr. Imperious has always known best, as he would proudly tell you.  Any opportunity, however sporadic, Kevin took to help Rebecca out (like trying to set her up with Dave Annable) was only ever met with eye rolls and condescending sighs, after which Kevin was treated to a wonderful lecture about how shitty a son he is and how perfect a son Mr. Imperious is.  At a certain point, you just stop trying because you can never win.

It's not even Randall's horrible attitude where Rebecca was concerned: every time he rolled his eyes at Kevin's work (yes, Randall, work), my blood pressure increased.  He's so disrespectful and dismissive of Kevin, even though Kevin has succeeded in a field with one of the very lowest success rates imaginable.  I can't think of a more earned slam than Kevin's money-related one; Kevin has been subject to Randall's condescension for so long that it was very satisfying to see him turn the tables for even a second.  It may not have been the kindest thing to say, but Randall more than earned it, and I laughed out loud when Kevin said it.

Another point in Kevin's favor: not living in regret.  It's useless and keeps you from being present in the here and now.  First of all, Randall, you had about as much chance of preventing Jack's death as I did.  Second of all, you want to play the what-if game?  Let's play it: if Jack hadn't died, you would've gone to Howard like you'd planned, never met Beth (I'm sure next week will try to address that, but, no, he would not have met her), and never had your beautiful daughters.

I'll never forget the first time I heard someone say, in the context of her own self-reflections, "Would you rather be right or happy?"  Randall is so focused on being right 136,000% of the time that he so often cannot be happy, which is a shame, but he goes about it in such an insufferable way that I want to punch him in the face.  In conclusion, Randall:

Also, Mandy Moore was absolutely exquisite in this episode.

C’mom, tell us what you really think!  (while I clap loudly)

[bros402]

You think Randall, as someone who refused to get therapy until his wife forced him - as someone who has had two full blown decompensatory episodes, would understand why his mother wouldn't want to try a clinical trial that probably wouldn't even work. He didn't want to try things proven to help with his anxiety and associated disorders, she doesn't want to waste nine months on something that might work.

[bybrandy]

2 hours ago, buttersister said:

Madame X? More like An Onion Peeling. Because it triggered the memory of a little girl who wanted to be a sophisticated lady 😪 and the missed-it-by-that-much flood of memories that went with choices made. Got me, Show. 

My dad died on reading day spring semester of my junior year of college and that summer my mom decided we needed to get out of the house and we went to Boston with absolutely no plan whatsoever.  The museum of fine arts there had a John Singer Sargent exhibit and that painting was on loan for the exhibit.  I remember it vividly.  So when we saw what painting it was I was like Rebecca only just missed (by a year or two) getting to the met only to find the painting was visiting Boston.   

Randall was seriously, wildly, not even a little bit right about Rebecca last night.  I sort of hated him.   

And his imagine how life would be if dad were still alive?  Well, you wouldn't have gone to the university where you met Beth.  Next.   

 

  

[Manda317]

Randall is getting on my nerves. He loves to take care of things, but he pays no attention to Rebecca's happiness. I don't necessarily think the trial was a bad idea, but he definitely could have let her have her day and discussed it with her the next. Also, if he would have listened to the concerns Kevin had, and Rebecca later voiced, he may have been able to convince her to go. Using your remaining time in the best way is a normal thing to worry about when you have a serious illness. There is no guarantee that the trial  would work, there isnt even a guarantee that she would receive the medication. It is also true that earlier intervention would probably have the best results. If Randall would have taken their concerns in account during a clear-minded conversation, he could have addressed them by things such as scheduling weekends where they took her to do the things she wanted and making sure that the family could spend as much time with her as possible. The alternating weeks was not a bad idea. Now that Rebecca has made a decision that may not have needed to be either/or, it will difficult for Randall to bring it up again without starting a fight. He shot himself in the foot by making this something that he wanted the others to help him force her into, instead of presenting it as an option and working with her and them to make it the best one.

[Brookside]

5 hours ago, debraran said:

Am I the only one who thought forgetting the name of the Plaza wasn’t a big deal.? I work with many women 50 and over and we all do that . Men too.  She has issues but that was normal,at least according to many doctors opinions. For me it’s names of actors, comes much later or a movie name on occasion 

Why do I think they were staying at the Carlisle?  And hasn't the Plaza been turned completely into luxury apartments?

[phalange]

I understand now why Kevin and Randall won't be speaking in a few months. Randall essentially telling Kevin that it's his fault if Rebecca gets sicker was really shitty, and Kevin simply saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" shows how much more patient he is than me, because I would not have been that calm. Especially not after Randall went back on his promise to just let Rebecca have the night to relax and brought up the trial as soon as Kevin stepped away for a minute. 

The flashback of the family trip to NYC shows how Randall and Jack are alike in not listening to Rebecca and thinking they know better than her. If Jack hadn't been so stubborn with a need to prove something, they wouldn't have gotten lost in the first place, and if Randall had just waited until the next day to bring up the trial like they agreed, maybe Rebecca would've been more receptive. 

I liked that until the end, we were made to think child!Rebecca was studying the painting when she was actually fascinated by the woman staring at the painting. It's a shame she didn't get to see it on the family trip (I'm looking at you, Jack) but it's nice that she finally got to see it and that was some damn good acting from Mandy Moore in that scene. 

[Lily H]

I was really disturbed by Rebecca's  snotty and completely uncalled-for reaction when the acting teacher said that carriage rides aren't good for the horses. A horse just recently collapsed and died from the overwork and abuse that is heaped daily on them for selfish tourists.

It was obvious from the very first moment of that first trip that Rebecca wasn't going to get to do "her" thing. What made Jack think he knew better than her about NY? Oh right, Saint Jack knows EVERYTHING and has to take someone else's knowledge as a personal affront to his greatness.

Randall is a dick. How dare he exclude Miguel from any decision-making regarding Rebecca's care? And his pissy comment to Kevin about being "abandoned" (for all of 5 minutes!) at KEVIN's premiere? He just sounds petulant and jealous, and would have grasped at any excuse to go back on his agreement with Kevin to let their mom have a pleasant evening. Her forgetting the name of the hotel wasn't exactly a crisis moment.

[Ana88]

Wow, what a beautiful episode! 

I really love these episodes where they combine 3 timelines.. it's just so beautiful. Freaking love it. You really get to see why things matter to people and how they turned into who they are today. Just imagine how helpful it would be if you got a little flashback story to everyone you meet right away. 

It makes so much sense for Randall to be like this with what he experienced and for Kevin to be more "laid back" as he wasn't there when Jack died and the fire. What a trauma for Randall. I can really see now how this whole thing can really mess up their relationship. They will never be able to fully understand where each other is coming from. When watching from the outside you can really see both sides, but for especially siblings with SO much build up from their entire lives it can almost be impossible. So sad how that's the case for so many siblings and how it can cause huge feuds in families. 

I think Mandy Moore is so great and plays the different ages SO well. It was so heartbreaking to see when the actor guy started talking about the horse carriages. So realistic. He wasn't meaning anything by it and obviously could have no idea what those words could do to Rebecca. It's really crazy with these things.. these small seemingly no big deal things we say that can just mean the world to the other person and how if they weren't said, I mean who knows what could have happened with the two of them. He seemed like a nice guy. 

And omg I was waiting to see what happened with Kate home alone for the whole episode... I was thinking surely they must give us SOMETHING. But of course theyre going to drag it out YET AGAIN when we should have known SO many episodes ago, UGH! Im really thinking it's Marc that is going to come over and it will be a disaster. Honestly there is simply no way a teenage girl like Kate is going to drop him in a second. That's never how those relationships work. But we shall see.. 

The scene with Rebecca and Jack in Queens was also SO touching. Jack being so scared he couldn't live up to Rebeccas nice childhood memories with her "perfect" dad only to see he wasn't so perfect and that Rebecca loves what Jack has to offer so much more. How beautiful. 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Ana88

[debraran]

1 hour ago, Brookside said:

Why do I think they were staying at the Carlisle?  And hasn't the Plaza been turned completely into luxury apartments?

It was Plaza but it's both now, condo and very expensive rooms. Kevin really stayed in room 411.

Can you still stay at the Plaza Hotel?

From our one-of-a-kind Eloise Suite, to our ultra-luxurious Penthouse Suites, The Plaza's unparalleled accommodations are as unique as they are elegant. Our spacious guest rooms offer classic appointments and furnishings as can only be expected from New York's most legendary address.

[MissLucas]

Man, Randall really needs that therapy. The last scene between the two brothers made it quite clear that Kevin has worked hard on getting to a better place emotionally than he was during the last seasons and it paid off. Randall is still stuck in the dynamics and narratives he created for himself as a teenager. His dismissive attitude towards Kevin's career illustrates that best. It was nasty but somehow understandable that teenage Randall had nothing but eye-rolls for Kevin's acting but adult Randall should really snap out of it especially since he had no qualms about accepting Kevin's help during his campaign. 

I loved the fake-out with the little girl actually not staring at a painting but at a lady staring at a painting.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ha, I loved Jack clearly biting his tongue and trying not to roll his eyes as he packed up the car while Rebecca went on and on about how her dearest daddy always made New York so magical and special.

If Jack knew that the Met closed early, why did he make that their last stop? If I recall correctly, FAO Schwartz used to be open pretty late so they could have done that last.

I was surprised that Rebecca let Kate stay home from the second New York trip (skipping a family trip was never an option in my family), but after Rebecca told Beth that it was going to be everyone in Kevin's acting class doing monologues, I thought smart choice there, Kate (even though I'm 99.999999% sure she just used it as a way to see Mark without anyone else knowing).

I was with Kevin - Rebecca wanted to have a fun day spending time with her sons and going to a big movie premiere. Talking to her about the clinical trial could wait one whole day.

And once she knew about the clinical trial, I was once again Team Kevin. This is Rebecca's choice. If she doesn't want to do it, that's totally up to her. Nine months away from her family on the chance that it MIGHT do something is a big time commitment for someone who already doesn't know how much time she has left. If it doesn't work, that's almost a year she will lose that she could have spent with her family.

Yes, Randall has spent the last 20 years taking care of Rebecca, but that was his choice. I've seen other people do the same thing (choose to take care of a relative and then resent everyone else for not making the same choice, despite the fact that they refuse any assistance when it's offered). If you choose to martyr yourself, you don't get to get mad at everyone else who didn't.

I get that Randall thinks it's his job/duty to take care of Rebecca and that he knows her better than Kevin or Kate, but that doesn't mean that he gets to make decisions for her. She said no to the clinical trial. That's not Kevin's fault. As we have been talking about for the last few years, consent is a real thing. When someone tells you no, that doesn't mean "maybe" or "I'd like you to talk me into saying yes." Take it at face value and respect that the other person has made a decision, despite the fact that it's not the decision you wanted them to make.

12 hours ago, milner said:

Randall made a plan to send his moms way for 9 months and never consulted her husband!!

 

12 hours ago, debraran said:

Because the kids and writers treat Miguel like a potted plant with no feelings. He works and lives with Rebecca, sleeps with Rebecca, shares his life with her but he is invisible to the Pearsons.

Miguel is not a Pearson so he is a non-person and his opinion doesn't count!

11 hours ago, Domenicholas said:

Hah! I thought I would be the only one who remembered that show. I loved Passions.

I mostly remember Tabitha and Timmy. Ooh and that incest/not incest storyline!

11 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Actually, it was Dave Annable playing Kirby.

I'm still bitter that we never got to find out what happened on Reunion!

11 hours ago, Bulldog said:

I don't think I've ever had a scene resonate quite as much as Rebecca's "next time" speech.

When we were in college, my sister's best friend's mom was diagnosed with cancer. It had already metastasized by the time they found it so she died a few months later. She was only in her 40s. At the funeral her husband said during the eulogy that their plan had always been to travel once their daughters were done with school (and their youngest was just about to finish college the following year) and now they'd never get to do it. Even as a jaded 20-something, I was sobbing when he said that. There are so many things that we put off because we think we have all the time in the world.

Edited March 11, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo
typo

[ShadowFacts]

6 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

Randall may be a councilman now and Beth is doing her thing with the studio but would a 9 month stint in a clinical trial really depend on Kevin's show biz money? Randall was making a pile of money before before he quit the business world. If that has all been squandered and if the whole thing did depend on Kevin and Randall was presuming his brother would pay for it then double shame on Randall.

In a drug trial, the company pays all those expenses.  Housing, food, medical care, the whole thing.  That's part of the reason drug development is so expensive.  If people had to pay their own way, people who are sick to begin with, there would be few participants.  As it is, with pay, companies often find it hard to find people to enroll in their studies.  The early phases use only healthy subjects, and in a good economy, people who are employed don't have the time to be in a facility, even if well compensated.  So this part didn't ring true to me, it was just a way for Kevin to get in a zinger on Randall.  I agree with the person who said there was too much piling on to Randall this episode.  Point made.  And Kevin was no angel throughout, yes, in the present he was wonderful to mom, but in the other timelines he and Randall were equally obnoxious.

2 hours ago, Ana88 said:

And omg I was waiting to see what happened with Kate home alone for the whole episode... I was thinking surely they must give us SOMETHING. But of course theyre going to drag it out YET AGAIN when we should have known SO many episodes ago, UGH! Im really thinking it's Marc that is going to come over and it will be a disaster. Honestly there is simply no way a teenage girl like Kate is going to drop him in a second. That's never how those relationships work. But we shall see.. 

That seems likely, I doubt she is doing what she told her mother, but the other possibility that sprang to mind is that she begins binge eating/purging.  That would be more unexpected.  And extreme eating has to happen sometime soon for her to gain a couple hundred pounds by her twenties.

[Haleth]

Wow, Randall was being a first class jerk with his need to control everything, but I sympathized with him when he imagined he could have stopped Jack from going back into the house.  In reality it would not have worked, but the guilt he's carried for 20+ years is heartbreaking.  The one time he didn't try to control the situation his dad dies.  It just reinforces his need to be in charge.  When he's not, bad things happen.

Get back to therapy, Randall.

Kevin said he pays for all the specialists (like the one Rebecca just saw), not that he was going to have to pay for the trial.

Isn't it funny how the writers have reversed the characters of Kevin and Randall since the first season wrt who is more messed up and who has his life together?  The brilliance of the cast is that they make this work.  I laughed at the line about "speechifying."

I don't know why Rebecca was so offended by Kirby's "cheesy" comment.  She should have just laughed it off and told him about her memory of Jack's romantic gesture, but yeah, cheesy.  Instead she chose to honor St Jack and nipped a new friendship in the bud, regardless of where it might have lead.  They were having a nice conversation.  Plus she missed seeing her painting.

9 hours ago, bettername2come said:

The lady who was staring at the painting looked deeply discontent to me. I half-suspect we'll get an episode about her and how Rebecca was wrong about her life.

Yeah, I was waiting for the last scene to be about her.  Something troubling.

[ShadowFacts]

36 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Man, Randall really needs that therapy. The last scene between the two brothers made it quite clear that Kevin has worked hard on getting to a better place emotionally than he was during the last seasons and it paid off. Randall is still stuck in the dynamics and narratives he created for himself as a teenager. His dismissive attitude towards Kevin's career illustrates that best. It was nasty but somehow understandable that teenage Randall had nothing but eye-rolls for Kevin's acting but adult Randall should really snap out of it especially since he had no qualms about accepting Kevin's help during his campaign. 

I disagree somewhat.  Kevin has made strides for sure, but I don't see that only Randall is stuck in old dynamics, I think Kevin is, too.  Kevin saying that he doesn't think about what if Dad survived, that is a fiction just as him saying he's never been dumped was.  It's not only impossible to believe that a human wouldn't, but we have actually seen him imagining that when Nicky was talking to him, it was Jack.  He has not nearly come to terms with his father's death or his own absence that night, and that's what he still needs to face.  He's that duck serenely floating on the water, furiously paddling underneath.  The show has now successfully demonized Randall and angelicized Kevin, but I bet with the number of seasons/episodes to go, that will be upended yet again. 

[Crs97]

I thought it was typical and nicely written that Rebecca is the one who gets them out of Queens, but they think Jack fixed it.  Moms never get the credit.  I can also understand Randall being frustrated that he is doing all the mundane work while Kevin gets to drop in and be the fun one, but Randall is the reason they all have their lanes.  Kevin tried to explain their life in California now, but Randall doesn’t want to hear it.  Making decisions without Miguel is ridiculous and insulting.

[BusyOctober]

Maybe Kevin can do some research and find a 9-month long clinical trial for Randall??  Honestly, I've gone from loving Randall in Season 1 to actively hating him in every scene he's in.  And I wasn't a big fan of Kevin's at first, but now I think he's the only voice of reason.  Still not on Team Kate one bit.  I don't like her character in general, but mostly its adult Kate I don't like.

I've been to NYC a few times, and mostly walked from place to place (walked from the UN to the Park Plaza, and from the Bowery to Rockefeller Plaza).  But even I know if you are on a train and miss a stop or go in the wrong direction, you jump off at the next stop, walk over/under to the train platform on the other side and take the next rain back in the right direction.  Or, you know, maybe listen to someone who knows the city/subway system better than I do?

 Jack and Randall are very much alike; they both think they are the only people capable of nurturing or directing or leading the people they love. Over it.

Speaking of Jack/Milo - maybe its because the Saint Jack angle is wearing on my nerves, but the way Milo speaks drives me CRAZY. It's like he's trying to talk without moving his lips, kinda clenching his jaw or something.  It just seems very fake or put on.  Ditto for Randall's "seriously smug and sanctimonious" tone he uses to man-splain (Randall-splain??) why, once again HE is right, and the others are babbling idiots.

Rebecca's speech about 'next time' really hit me.  We all have limited 'next times', regardless of horrible diseases like cancer or Alzheimer's.  Don't defer happiness to 'next time'! 

[ams1001]

10 minutes ago, BusyOctober said:

Speaking of Jack/Milo - maybe its because the Saint Jack angle is wearing on my nerves, but the way Milo speaks drives me CRAZY. It's like he's trying to talk without moving his lips, kinda clenching his jaw or something.  It just seems very fake or put on.  Ditto for Randall's "seriously smug and sanctimonious" tone he uses to man-splain (Randall-splain??) why, once again HE is right, and the others are babbling idiots.

Milo was born with nerve damage causing paralysis on the left side of his mouth; I don't know how much of the way he speaks is from that or if part of it is an "acting choice"... Agreed on Randall's tone, though. 

I wonder if Randall ever thinks about the fact that if Kevin had been home that night, he would have been sleeping in his basement bedroom with a huge cast on his leg and probably not been able to escape. And if he had been home, Jack most certainly would have tried to save him and there's a good chance they both would have died. (Probably not. I really want Kevin or someone to point this out next time he blames Kevin for not being there that night.)

[MissLucas]

42 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I disagree somewhat.  Kevin has made strides for sure, but I don't see that only Randall is stuck in old dynamics, I think Kevin is, too. 

Kevin's not in a perfect place but definitely in a better one than he was before and in a better one than Randall is right now. I agree that Kevin's not really come to terms with that night yet either and maybe further down the lane the show will address that. But right now it's Randall's turn. Funnily enough I had huge problems with perfect Randall in season one and I feel more for this season's jerk Randall. I get where his coming from and all his decisions make sense once you understand his head-space. And that's where the difference is between them at this moment: Kevin has started to get out of his own head-space (instead of just turning off the lights by getting drunk). Randall is still stuck. Not sure where Kate is but I'd say she's also on the move maybe not to the degree Kevin is but she's definitely moved on too from where she was.

[cardigirl]

11 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The painting in the episode is John Singer Sargent's Portrait of Madame X.  A late Victorian painting which was scandalous when it first premiered because of all the exposed flesh and the straps appear to be falling off.  The name of the lady was not mentioned even if all of parisian society could figure out who it was.  I can see a woman in the repressive 1950s staring at that painting for hours wondering if she has the gumption to do something similar.  And then we get 1999 Rebecca starting to flirt with another man, staring to think about her life without Jack.  A+ use of symbolism writers.

 

On another note, STFU Randall.  

It was here in Boston a few years ago at a Sargent exhibition.  One of my favorites, so I can see why it mesmerized the woman, and why Rebecca was mesmerized by the woman mesmerized by the painting.  🙂   

And I think Kevin feels much guilt about not being there the night of the fire. It wasn't explicitly expressed as such in this episode, but he married young, he went away to NYC, he rejected the closeness of the family, because he felt unworthy of it. Part of his resentment of Randall is that he was there, and went through it, and I don't think he blames Randall, per se, but he does blame him for taking over as if he were the anointed one. 

Also, Rebecca set up the competition between those two from a very early age because she so focused on Randall and his needs, and Kevin was often left out, and now he gets a chance to do something for her and be closer to her, Randall is all kinds of green jealous. 

 

Excellent episode.

Edited March 11, 2020 by cardigirl

[Ohiopirate02]

17 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

 

I wonder if Randall ever thinks about the fact that if Kevin had been home that night, he would have been sleeping in his basement bedroom with a huge cast on his leg and probably not been able to escape. And if he had been home, Jack most certainly would have tried to save him and there's a good chance they both would have died. (Probably not. I really want Kevin or someone to point this out next time he blames Kevin for not being there that night.)

I was just coming here to type this.  Kevin doesn't think about the what ifs from that night because the answer is dead.  Kevin survived that fire because he wasn't there.  

[Crs97]

Randall wants to steamroll everyone.  He said Rebecca doesn’t know what she wants because she is scared.  Clearly he didn’t listen to her because she could not have been more sure of herself if she tried.

I have always said my child’s autism diagnosis robbed him somewhat of his childhood, and I think the Alzheimer’s diagnosis does the same.  Everyone has “senior” moments.  Forgetting the name of The Plaza was no big deal (I actually wished that when she said Eloise, Kevin’s agent had popped up with the name of the hotel), but now that she has the diagnosis looming over her she is stuck looking at everything through that prism.

[Ohiopirate02]

I feel like I need to go back and rewatch the previous seasons, but has kid Randall always been such an ass to Kevin, or is that new this season?  More than once in the flashbacks, Randall makes an snide comment about Kevin which goes unnoticed by the parents while Kevin's reaction is what gets flagged.  Yes, Kevin shouldn't call his brother a buttmunch, but Randall didn't need to yuck on Kevin's yum about Home Alone 2.  Or correct Kevin about the Entire State Building.  But yet, both Jack and Rebecca seem oblivious to this.  

[BetyBee]

This episode really hit home to me about family dynamics, since my large family is currently discussing options for our elderly mother. I was disappointed when Kate so quickly acquiesced to Randall's pressure to "all agree" on the clinical trial. Later in the episode, Kid Kate is literally (in the car) in the middle of the boys' squabbling. I'm surprised Kate isn't more pro-active about what she actually thinks now that she's an adult. They all should be ashamed for not discussing this with Miguel.  I'm on team Kevin and am finding Randall's self righteous self-absorption to be exhausting. I understand that he has issues, but he is hurting the people around him. He should have been in therapy long ago.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Randall wants to steamroll everyone.  He said Rebecca doesn’t know what she wants because she is scared.  Clearly he didn’t listen to her because she could not have been more sure of herself if she tried.

I did half-expect a later scene to go like this:

Interior shot: New York Hotel Room.  Rebecca and Randall alone in her room.

Rebecca: I'm thirsty.  Randall, could you get me a glass of water?

Randall: Sure mom, here you go.

Rebecca:  Thank you!  (Drinks water)  Oh, I'm suddenly so dizzy and sleepy.  Randall, what did you do?

Randall: It's okay mom, just go to sleep and when you wake up, all will be fine.

(Two Days Later)

Rebecca wakes up in an unfamiliar bed, in a strange, darkened room.  Groggily, she walks over to the curtains and opens them.  As light streams into the room, Rebecca's eyes begin to focus, and she stares out the window to make sense of her surroundings.  Suddenly, her eye catches on something that the audience can't see.  She begins to scream.  The camera then pulls back to reveal what Rebecca is seeing.  It is the St. Louis Arch. 

[Scarlett45]

27 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

This episode really hit home to me about family dynamics, since my large family is currently discussing options for our elderly mother. I was disappointed when Kate so quickly acquiesced to Randall's pressure to "all agree" on the clinical trial. Later in the episode, Kid Kate is literally (in the car) in the middle of the boys' squabbling. I'm surprised Kate isn't more pro-active about what she actually thinks now that she's an adult. They all should be ashamed for not discussing this with Miguel.  I'm on team Kevin and am finding Randall's self righteous self-absorption to be exhausting. I understand that he has issues, but he is hurting the people around him. He should have been in therapy long ago.

(((Hugs))) to you through this time. 
 

I admit I cannot imagine how hard it is to discuss and make choices about these things among many different people. My Mom always said the best thing about being an only child was that it was HER father, her decision, her choices for him (when he got too sick and too far along in dementia). I too am the only one capable of making choices for my Mom and my mom and I have made choices for my sister together since I became an adult. 
 

I cannot say if I had been the one in the thick of it on the day to day I would’ve been more understanding than Randall (Regarding Kevin’s opinion). I don’t think I would’ve been an ASSHOLE but from my experiences in the caregiver world (and life in general) its one person doing 90% of the work and the other people telling them what a good job they’re doing and deciding to have an opinion when the “big stuff” happens. Which is hella annoying (I understand teen Randall’s perspective on this more than adult Randall). 
 

Just to re-iterate I do think Randall was in the wrong, and was being an inconsiderate ass to Kevin as well as not thinking of his Mom’s well being. I am just saying I understand where his perspective that he knows best comes from. I certainly think I know best when it comes to what’s best for my family- but I don’t have anyone to contradict that. Just because you feel you know what’s best doesn’t give you the excuse to be an asshole to others and sometimes it’s best to SHUT UP and let others get a word in. That takes effort and emotional maturity. 

[sasha206]

10 hours ago, memememe76 said:

I find it weird to set your mom up on a date, with your professor, one year after your dad’s death. Just saying. Yet, Kevin is the one who had the biggest issue with Miguel.

My then 15 year old daughter, not even a whole year after my husband's death at 52 from colon cancer did exactly that!  Not really set me up, but came home telling me one day about how her favorite teacher that she thought I would like.   I wasn't interested, and I ended up reconnecting with my high school crush.  She was excited for me to date my crush.  She wanted me to be happy.  Ironically, I didn't end up introducing her to him until my mom's 80th birthday party. 

Anyway, the set up is not surprising to me having lived through it (although I was surprised that my daughter was ready for me to date).  And it doesn't seem odd to me that Kevin did have the biggest issue with MIguel, but that's probably because Miguel was a regular part of their lives as Dad's best friend.  I think a kid would wonder if he was lusting after her the whole time?

Edited March 11, 2020 by sasha206

[rachel1496]

8 hours ago, mommalib said:

I didn't say Randall was right about the clinical trial but based off of history I can understand why he carries things the way he does particularly when it comes to Rebecca, It's great that Kevin finally decides to take some of the responsibility where their mother is concerned at almost 40 years old but Randall has been in that particular drivers seat since he was a teenager.

The problem is that Rebecca is a grown woman who doesn’t need her son taking responsibility for her and never did.  Randall’s insistence that she needs him to take care of her is patronizing as all hell and it’s a big reason why I can’t stand him right now.  It’s the same reason I can’t stand Jack either.

 

[mommalib]

7 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

As Kevin said at the beginning of the episode when Mr. Imperious was tsk-tsk-ing his Lesser Siblings for not immediately acquiescing to his loudly expressed omniscience about all things Rebecca-related, Mr. Imperious never allowed Kevin or Kate to have a voice or opinion where Rebecca was concerned.  Mr. Imperious has always known best, as he would proudly tell you.  Any opportunity, however sporadic, Kevin took to help Rebecca out (like trying to set her up with Dave Annable) was only ever met with eye rolls and condescending sighs, after which Kevin was treated to a wonderful lecture about how shitty a son he is and how perfect a son Mr. Imperious is.  At a certain point, you just stop trying because you can never win.

It's not even Randall's horrible attitude where Rebecca was concerned: every time he rolled his eyes at Kevin's work (yes, Randall, work), my blood pressure increased.  He's so disrespectful and dismissive of Kevin, even though Kevin has succeeded in a field with one of the very lowest success rates imaginable.  I can't think of a more earned slam than Kevin's money-related one; Kevin has been subject to Randall's condescension for so long that it was very satisfying to see him turn the tables for even a second.  It may not have been the kindest thing to say, but Randall more than earned it, and I laughed out loud when Kevin said it.

Another point in Kevin's favor: not living in regret.  It's useless and keeps you from being present in the here and now.  First of all, Randall, you had about as much chance of preventing Jack's death as I did.  Second of all, you want to play the what-if game?  Let's play it: if Jack hadn't died, you would've gone to Howard like you'd planned, never met Beth (I'm sure next week will try to address that, but, no, he would not have met her), and never had your beautiful daughters.

I'll never forget the first time I heard someone say, in the context of her own self-reflections, "Would you rather be right or happy?"  Randall is so focused on being right 136,000% of the time that he so often cannot be happy, which is a shame, but he goes about it in such an insufferable way that I want to punch him in the face.  In conclusion, Randall:

Also, Mandy Moore was absolutely exquisite in this episode.

Well as far as I'm concerned screw Kevin's arrogant self centered ass.  

[camom]

I think most rational people would have told Rebecca that they found a clinical trial she might be interested in, given her printed information to look over, and offered to help get more info if she wanted it.  But Randall is not rational.  He wanted to bulldoze her (and his siblings) with absolutely no concern for her wants and desires.  Randall knows what's best.  Period.

[Scarlett45]

4 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

My then 15 year old daughter, not even a whole year after my husband's death at 52 from colon cancer did exactly that!  Not really set me up, but came home telling me one day about how her favorite teacher that she thought I would like.   I wasn't interested, and I ended up reconnecting with my high school crush.  She was excited for me to date my crush.  She wanted me to be happy.  Ironically, I didn't end up introducing her to him until my mom's 80th birthday party. 

Anyway, the set up is not surprising to me having lived through it (although I was surprised that my daughter was ready for me to date).  And it doesn't seem odd to me that Kevin did have the biggest issue with MIguel, but that's probably because Miguel was a regular part of their lives as Dad's best friend.  I think a kid would wonder if he was lusting after her the whole time?

I think it’s very sweet your daughter wanted you to be happy- I’m sure you’re very close. I think my perception of the “weirdness” is a bit of a cultural difference. I didn’t think it was bad Kevin did that but “weird” because I was raised that children (even legally adult children like the Big 3 were) don’t need to be in the personal business of other adults (elders) and their Mom’s need for partnered sex or whatever is not any of their concern. My Mom would look at me sideways if I suggested she meet a man for the purposes of romance. Like “did I forget my place??” And my Mom is my favorite being in the world. 
 

 

Yes I think that Kevin’s issue with Miguel wasn’t that their Mom married again, but that it was their Dad’s friend. It probably felt a bit incestuous (Socially) to Kevin as he saw Miguel as another parental figure.   Had Rebecca married a complete stranger to them she met at a coffee shop or something I don’t think Kevin would’ve reacted that way. (I don’t think anything is wrong with Rebecca and Miguel getting married.)

[sasha206]

1 hour ago, ams1001 said:

Milo was born with nerve damage causing paralysis on the left side of his mouth; I don't know how much of the way he speaks is from that or if part of it is an "acting choice"... Agreed on Randall's tone, though. 

I wonder if Randall ever thinks about the fact that if Kevin had been home that night, he would have been sleeping in his basement bedroom with a huge cast on his leg and probably not been able to escape. And if he had been home, Jack most certainly would have tried to save him and there's a good chance they both would have died. (Probably not. I really want Kevin or someone to point this out next time he blames Kevin for not being there that night.)

I did not know that about MIlo, but in Gilmore Girls, he doesn't seem to do that same affection in it.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think it’s very sweet your daughter wanted you to be happy- I’m sure you’re very close. I think my perception of the “weirdness” is a bit of a cultural difference. I didn’t think it was bad Kevin did that but “weird” because I was raised that children (even legally adult children like the Big 3 were) don’t need to be in the personal business of other adults (elders) and their Mom’s need for partnered sex or whatever is not any of their concern. My Mom would look at me sideways if I suggested she meet a man for the purposes of romance. Like “did I forget my place??” And my Mom is my favorite being in the world. 

That's interesting!  Y

And seriously, if I hadn't lived through what I did, I would also be skeptical as well!

Edited March 11, 2020 by sasha206

[mommalib]

58 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I feel like I need to go back and rewatch the previous seasons, but has kid Randall always been such an ass to Kevin, or is that new this season?  More than once in the flashbacks, Randall makes an snide comment about Kevin which goes unnoticed by the parents while Kevin's reaction is what gets flagged.  Yes, Kevin shouldn't call his brother a buttmunch, but Randall didn't need to yuck on Kevin's yum about Home Alone 2.  Or correct Kevin about the Entire State Building.  But yet, both Jack and Rebecca seem oblivious to this.  

Oh please Kevin has been a jerk to Randall their entire childhood. Randall gets in some digs and all of a sudden Randall was the jerk? Stop

[sasha206]

10 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Randall was extremely out of line to claim that the drug trial would save Rebecca's life. Even if she gets into the trial, there's a 50% chance that she'll end up in the control group, i.e. she would not get the drug, and she wouldn't know either way because any legitimate drug trial would have to be double-blind. That would mean spending nine months - possibly all of the "good" time she has left - in St. Louis for absolutely nothing. And if she does get the drug, there's no guarantee that it will work, since she will be one of the first humans on whom the drug is tested. There's also a considerable chance of side effects that could diminish her quality of life, or even kill her. And even if the drug "works" it's unlikely to cure her completely but rather slow down the progress of the disease. And that slow-down may not be meaningful if you subtract the nine months she spends in St. Louis. So it's a perfectly sound decision on Rebecca's part to not want to do it.

My understanding based on what the doctor said to Rebecca after Jack's death is that the widow-maker heart attack could have happened either way due to blockage in his arteries. If that's correct, then Jack may still have died even if he hadn't gone back for the dog. There's nothing Randall could have done short of making Jack have an angiogram long before the fire.

Exactly on all points.  Instead of listening to what his mom wants and needs, he automatically made the leap that what's best for her is what is best for him.  No regard for her feelings, nor her husband's feelings.

Experimental trials are just that. My husband, Stage IV colon cancer, got into an experimental treatment program.  Unfortunately, it was already too late to have any affect.  If he had told me that he didn't want to do it or continue it, I would have understood and supported it.  Rebecca isn't critically ill at this moment in time and wants to enjoy the time she has.  Randall blaming his brother is ridiculous.

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Rebecca isn't critically ill at this moment in time and wants to enjoy the time she has.  Randall blaming his brother is ridiculous.

Randall blaming Kevin is absolutely ridiculous and wrong, but it felt very real to me. It is emotionally easier for Randall to blame Kevin for not doing what Randall wants than to accept that Rebecca as his mother doesn’t want to do what he says. 

[sasha206]

1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

Randall blaming Kevin is absolutely ridiculous and wrong, but it felt very real to me. It is emotionally easier for Randall to blame Kevin for not doing what Randall wants than to accept that Rebecca as his mother doesn’t want to do what he says. 

Very good point, Scarlett!

[mommalib]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I disagree somewhat.  Kevin has made strides for sure, but I don't see that only Randall is stuck in old dynamics, I think Kevin is, too.  Kevin saying that he doesn't think about what if Dad survived, that is a fiction just as him saying he's never been dumped was.  It's not only impossible to believe that a human wouldn't, but we have actually seen him imagining that when Nicky was talking to him, it was Jack.  He has not nearly come to terms with his father's death or his own absence that night, and that's what he still needs to face.  He's that duck serenely floating on the water, furiously paddling underneath.  The show has now successfully demonized Randall and angelicized Kevin, but I bet with the number of seasons/episodes to go, that will be upended yet again. 

You hit the nail on the head with the demonization of Randall and the angelicizing of Kevin. I'm starting to get the feeling that has been the goal after season 1 when Randall was beloved. And I think the current image of both makes certain people more comfortable. But I guess it does make Randall an even more interesting character and highlights what a great actor Sterling is. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by mommalib

[Kirkydee]

I would like a scene in the near future like this (Randall & Miguel)

Randall- "Miguel, I'm looking into getting mom in a experimental treatment that has shown great promise in St Louis"

Miguel " Yes Randall I've looked at that study.  As you know it's a double blind study so there's a 50% chance she wont get the medicine.  And as you also know these trials show promise initially, but dont get FDA approval because of serious side affects down the line.  Dont you agree Randall"?

Randall (in an unsure higher pitched voice) " Well, uh, yeah, I, uh, was just letting you know I'm thinking of mom, uh, I'm thinking about the both of you... hey, you got some booberry pie?

Randalls hearts in the right place.  His tact and respect for others are somewhere else

[mommalib]

23 minutes ago, rachel1496 said:

The problem is that Rebecca is a grown woman who doesn’t need her son taking responsibility for her and never did.  Randall’s insistence that she needs him to take care of her is patronizing as all hell and it’s a big reason why I can’t stand him right now.  It’s the same reason I can’t stand Jack either.

 

After Jack died Rebecca clearly needed someone and Randall stepped up. Yes your right Rebecca is grown and Randall shouldn't have had to be her person but he was. I don't think he's trying to be patronizing but it's the role he feels it's his responsibility to play also tying into his own issues. And now more than ever he feels like he needs to be that and I don't think he knows how not to. But at this point I think Randall should take a step back from his mother and his siblings and just focus on his wife, his kids, and his therapy. Let Kevin and Kate look out for Rebecca.

[ShadowFacts]

11 minutes ago, mommalib said:

You hit the nail on the head with the demonization of Randall and the angelicizing of Kevin. I'm starting to get the feeling that has been the goal after season when Randall was beloved. And the current image of both makes certain people more comfortable. But I guess it does make Randall an even more interesting character and highlights what a great actor Sterling is. 

Yes, plenty of people are voicing their desire to punch, slap and make sure it is known that Randall is 100% asshole and Kevin now is the knight.  It's been written to elicit this reaction and it's kind of annoying/manipulative.  I do hope they stop making these characters so either/or.  It risks making them into walking stereotypes. Luckily the acting is good or it could get cartoonish.