S08.E08: Crisis On Infinite Earths Part Four

[scarynikki12]

Quote

Stuck in the Vanishing Point, the Paragons search for a way to escape. The futility of the situation is compounded by The Flash’s disappearance. However, hope appears in the form of Oliver, who reveals that he has become something else. Meanwhile, the origin stories for The Monitor and Anti-Monitor are revealed.

 

 

[scarynikki12]

Things to remember when you post:

All opinions and reactions to the episode are valid, the events of Part 5 are off topic, and it's better to scroll past a post you disagree with than start a fight.

Remember Primetimer's Be Civil policy.

[TV Anonymous]

Seeing Ezra Miller, I was half hoping that Gal Gadot and/or Jason Momoa would also make cameo.

But WTF, how was Lex Luthor a hero in this story? In all Superman iterations, Lex Luthor is always the big bad. The story of Oliver as the Spectre made me confused.

[quarks]

Well, at least Oliver did get to die on his own show (again).

I was kinda looking forward to him continuing on as Spectre, though. Well. Hmm. Maybe he can do that when he dies again in episode 10.

[Cthulhudrew]

They should have subtitled this crossover:

Crisis on Infinite Earths, or The Many Deaths of Oliver Queen

[mtlchick]

26 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

Seeing Ezra Miller, I was half hoping that Gal Gadot and/or Jason Momoa would also make cameo.

I'm guessing outside him being the "easiest" one out of the Justice League to get to do a cameo, I saw it as an inside joke about Miller being cast as the DCU version of the Flash even though Grant was playing him for a few years by then.  Definitely the surprise I wasn't expecting but I loved it!

 

As opposed to the rest of the episode and most of the event.  At least Ollie got to die on his show, but something about this episode didn't sit well with me.  And I don't know if the last 2 episodes will fill in some gaps to maybe like it more later (or least make more sense of it.)

[ottoDbusdriver]

I thought the Ezra Miller cameo was pretty awesome.

I did find this episode a little confusing when Barry was flitting about the speedforce.

Oliver (to the Anti-Monitor): "You have failed this universe."

I guess this means that Oliver was the source of the Big Bang -- who knew ?

Edited January 15, 2020 by ottoDbusdriver

[Lantern7]

I'm a bit confused. I thought this was the final Arrow. But there's an episode next week, and it looks to be the backdoor pilot for Mia and her gang.

I don't think Spectre works on TV. I think to get the full effect, you'd need IMAX. Read Kingdom Come . . . that's the big guy in the green robe I'd want. Oliver Queen as Spectre is like Hal Jordan as Spectre in the comics before he was resurrected . . . it looks good on paper,but the execution is lacking

My idea of a proper end? In the original COIE, the Superman of Earth-2 was about to within one final destructive wave from a defeated Anti-Monitor. But then Alexander Luthor (son of good guy Lex Luthor of Earth-3) opened up a portal when they could live in peace, along with the Lois Lane of Earth-2 and Superboy of Earth-Prime. That was nice . . . at least if you ignore Infinite Crisis. Just have Ollie and Felicity in their own place, having earned their rest.

Despite having no powers (yet) and no experience, Ryan Choi took to this episode like a duck to water. I'm happy for the guy.

Didn't know that was Ezra Miller as DCEU Flash until others recognized him. I feel bad for the kid . . . his Barry is also a well-meaning putz, but the odds of him getting a solo movie are so slim right now. I reckon the DCEU could have existed in the Arrowverse Multiverse . . . and that could still be the case. Who would have guessed the TV heroes would look better? I mean, Gal Gadot has killed it, and we got decent interpretations of Aquaman and Shazam, but the first movies have hobbled it from the start. On the other hand . . . possibility of a teamup between . . . how about Ray Palmer and Billy Batson? Putz Overload.

Flashbacks were pretty good. If you're a recent convert, read the forums of S3 Arrow. We were hating Ray Palmer back then. Now he's the lovable goofball of the Waverider. But back then, most of us would've killed him to get Felicity back with Ollie. And yes, in that same season, the writers thought it would be a great idea for Sara to die in the most punk-ass/lame-ass way possible, with Laurel filling her place as Black Canary.

Great to see Lex look out for himself. I still feel John Cryer's unambiguous portrayal is better than Michael Rosenbaum's Lex forever teetering on the fence between good and evil. If only he knew of the Multiverse. He could have bonded about father issues with Dr. Sivana.

Off to LoT!

[quarks]

13 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

I'm a bit confused. I thought this was the final Arrow. But there's an episode next week, and it looks to be the backdoor pilot for Mia and her gang.

Arrow got a 10 episode order. This was the 8th episode of that order. Episode 9 is the backdoor pilot for Mia, and episode 10 is the series finale.

[DanaK]

I was underwhelmed by this and didn’t find it enjoyable. It didn’t really click for me until the last few minutes. I can’t really explain why it didn’t work other than I wasn’t really engaged by the “flashbacks” or people dropping in on them

[insomniadreams88]

Question: So Barry found the paragons in the speed force in memories at least one of them had, right? So whose memory was the Diggle/Laurel scene? Dead Sara somehow overheard them? Or she imagined that’s how Laurel took over as BC?

[Featherhat]

8 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Question: So Barry found the paragons in the speed force in memories at least one of them had, right? So whose memory was the Diggle/Laurel scene? Dead Sara somehow overheard them? Or she imagined that’s how Laurel took over as BC?

My take from that was honestly that they wanted to give some E1 Laurel-ness to fans and KC, so that yes everyone endorsed her as the BC especially with Diggle as the Voice of Reason whilst not actually involving having to change the narrative either then or now. 

[scarynikki12]

4 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Question: So Barry found the paragons in the speed force in memories at least one of them had, right? So whose memory was the Diggle/Laurel scene? Dead Sara somehow overheard them? Or she imagined that’s how Laurel took over as BC?

I don't think it was supposed to be memories that the Paragon had, as Kate certainly wasn't present in that Oliver and Ray scene, but I don't remember what Spectre Oliver told Barry exactly. Whatever it was just helped him find them.

I sadly think that horrible scene between Laurel and Diggle was supposed to be real and the start of her taking over as Black Canary. They managed to make Laurel putting on the mask even worse than when it first happened. Sara's body wasn't even cold and Laurel was fondling her mask and Diggle was encouraging her to take over. Diggle would never do that! He knew that Laurel wasn't physically capable of being a vigilante because he knew she'd been a damsel in distress several times, including just a few months prior. No way would he encourage anyone to be a vigilante when they weren't up to the job. Also he and Laurel weren't friends yet so him being the one to suggest that she take over for Sara, who he knew and loved enough to name his newborn daughter after, really doesn't make sense. We know Laurel was beyond angry after Sara's death, leading her to attack at least one innocent person, so if she were talking revenge and Dig said something about how working out always helped him sort his thoughts and deal with his emotions then we could extrapolate that had some influence on her eventually doing those boxing lessons. Instead we had Diggle being wildly out of character and Laurel's path to Black Canary starting off even more insulting that it originally was.

[Trini]

I mean - at least have some texture on the cloak; come on. Then again, maybe they didn't have any budget left....

Ezra Miller!!! Flash meeting another Flash! Yes!! Well I'm glad they let Ezra (and his movie costume!) visit the Arrow-verse, because they sure aren't letting the Arrow-verse visit the movies.

Cool use of the Speed Force, I guess, but I'm not feeling these flashbacks. At least Barry learned about Oliver's deal... still way too late, though.

I'm glad Barry got stuff to do here; wasn't expecting that from the Arrow part.

Man, it's fine that Amell wanted to get through this crossover doing the least work possible, but it's just so obvious. 😬

Only 3 seconds of Martian J'onn? *harsh sigh* I hate how he's been sidelined this whole time, yet he's a paragon. On the other hand, good use of adorable Ryan Choi!

Even though it's the second time, that was a really touching death scene with Oliver, Barry, and Sara.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Trini

[scarynikki12]

5 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

My take from that was honestly that they wanted to give some E1 Laurel-ness to fans and KC, so that yes everyone endorsed her as the BC especially with Diggle as the Voice of Reason whilst not actually involving having to change the narrative either then or now. 

That too.

[MarkHB]

Grant Gustin's Barry just gave Ezra's the name "The Flash." So help me if they reference that in the movie ( currently scheduled for 2022) I'll die.

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Instead we had Diggle being wildly out of character and Laurel's path to Black Canary starting off even more insulting that it originally was.

Yeah, they accidentally made it look even more like a posthumous single white femaling than it already did, what with Laurel dumping Sara in a pine box right after and not telling either of her parents that she'd died for months (and even pretending that she was Sara to fool her dad, lol). Whew. 

[colorbars]

This hour was really confusing and felt like a way to kill time. Obviously the last fifteen or so minutes were big and important in the overall story, but the rest of it just felt like a complete time killer. Not to mention confusing.

The Ezra Miller cameo was a big surprise and I give them kudos for not only getting him, but also keeping that under wraps. If they were going to do those kinds of memory things, I think they could have had a lot more fun with it than what they ended up doing.

[Trini]

3 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

Grant Gustin's Barry just gave Ezra's the name "The Flash." So help me if they reference that in the movie ( currently scheduled for 2022) I'll die.

They didn't call him "The Flash" in Justice League?

[insomniadreams88]

10 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I don't think it was supposed to be memories that the Paragon had, as Kate certainly wasn't present in that Oliver and Ray scene, but I don't remember what Spectre Oliver told Barry exactly. Whatever it was just helped him find them.

I figured that was Oliver’s memory since Spectre Oliver was in there and they just used it as a lesson for Kate because they had nothing else to do with her. 

[MarkHB]

Just now, Trini said:

They didn't call him "The Flash" in Justice League?

No. Neither he, Diana nor Billy Batson have used their hero names in the movies yet. 

[scarynikki12]

1 minute ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I figured that was Oliver’s memory since Spectre Oliver was in there and they just used it as a lesson for Kate because they had nothing else to do with her. 

Maybe Oliver was weeping about losing Sara just offscreen? And that's where Diggle walked over from? So he'd be able to hear their conversation though that doesn't explain why he wouldn't come right in and yell at both of them for that particular topic. There's no legit reason to have seen that particular scene other than to bring back Laurel one more time.

[bettername2come]

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I guess this means the Oliver was the source of the Big Bang -- who knew ?

Seems fitting since he kickstarted the Arrowverse.

[Cthulhudrew]

19 minutes ago, Trini said:

They didn't call him "The Flash" in Justice League?

I took it as maybe Barry showed up at an early point in Ezra-Barry's timeline, when he was just trying on his suit, but hadn't given himself a name yet.

EDIT: NM. I just remembered that he mentioned Victor, so I guess it must be post-JLA movie and my theory is bunk.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Cthulhudrew

[Featherhat]

16 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Yeah, they accidentally made it look even more like a posthumous single white femaling than it already did, what with Laurel dumping Sara in a pine box right after and not telling either of her parents that she'd died for months (and even pretending that she was Sara to fool her dad, lol). Whew. 

This was a moment I was genuinely curious about. Why not just have E2 Laurel there with the gang with Dinah and Rene? As I said I guess they wanted a final moment of validation for E1 Laurel but that doesn't make either character look better and it isn't the version f the character they hope will be a spin off.

It's like the writers re read the "you have a light inside you Sara never had" scene and decided this needed to be doubled down on nearly 5 years after the fact. When that is a massively disliked scene because of the shitting on Sara. I doubt it's going to be a big S5 LOT storyline though. 

[BkWurm1]

It wasn't a great episode to watch but Arrow in the crossovers has pulled worse ones.  I was ok with the flashbacks even if they didn't feel like they served much purpose until they got to Laurel and Diggle's "conversation"  That earned the crossover's first "HELL NO!!"  (literally yelled aloud, lol)  

There is NO WAY that Diggle would have told her at that stage in her life at her current skill level to "Be the Canary".  She was a fricken lawyer that hadn't even been brushing up on any of the self defense lessons she took back in freaking high school (per the canon until proven otherwise show comics)  

Diggle would never in a million years put that kind of burden on the fragile psyche of an only recently recently recovering addict and not only that, of ALL the people, Laurel was the one person that Diggle was most frustrated about in the past in how Oliver would go and make poor choices if he thought she was in danger.  Diggle wouldn't encourage her to create more problematic situations. 

And there's no way a man with Diggle's level of training would think it  a good idea for an office worker in her thirties to try to emulate her LoA trained sister that had just been killed.  It's beyond credulity.   

46 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Question: So Barry found the paragons in the speed force in memories at least one of them had, right? So whose memory was the Diggle/Laurel scene? Dead Sara somehow overheard them? Or she imagined that’s how Laurel took over as BC?

Best explanation I've heard.  Sara the paragon being there in the scene was the new twist added to the scene and once the paragons showed up, stuff in the flashbacks changed so I'm going with what is the least amount of crazy and "dead" Sara the paragon came up with her own "memories"  

Either way, what a weird reason to bring old Laurel back.  I wonder if it was all so they could do the surprise of Dead Sara not being dead lol.  

 

I liked the Oliver and Anti Monitor fight.  SA actually managed to pull off saying "You have failed this Universe" without it seeming cheesy. 

I do wish that the episode hadn't only focused on Oliver's past fights to prepare him for his final battle.  What about all the things that prepared him for those showdowns?  His will to give his all was never a question.  He prevailed for other reasons than determination. He always was ready to leave it all on the line.  

I found it really interesting how they moved Sara into Oliver's relationship with Barry.  Frankly, I like it but I was expecting Kate to get that nod.  

 

[statsgirl]

I am so over Oliver sacrificing himself for people who don't deserve it, and dying blue dead while Beth and MG pat themselves on the back for being so clever.

What a FU to me for sticking with this show through all it's messes.

[catrox14]

Oliver died so many times in this crossover he is an honorary Winchester by now.

Man, I cried and I don't really even know why, other than it's really ending....and I am still not ready. 

[Mellowyellow]

55 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I am so over Oliver sacrificing himself for people who don't deserve it, and dying blue dead while Beth and MG pat themselves on the back for being so clever.

What a FU to me for sticking with this show through all it's messes.

oh hun *big huggles*

I hope you get everything you want in the last ep (you won't) but failing that I hope you get something to mitigate your woes!

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I am so over Oliver sacrificing himself for people who don't deserve it, and dying blue dead while Beth and MG pat themselves on the back for being so clever.

What a FU to me for sticking with this show through all it's messes.

I'm still holding out for an ending in the final Arrow episode that makes Oliver dying to save everyone a better show choice.  

[PWHCHCH]

Now I remember why I dropped out of the Arrowverse. This wasn't any where near being a decent episode.

 

[Mellowyellow]

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm still holding out for an ending in the final Arrow episode that makes Oliver dying to save everyone a better show choice.  

I'm going to miss your level headedness so much and all our discussions where

I'm like:🤬😡😠👿

And you're like: 😊🤗😅🧐

[thuganomics85]

Stephen Amell:  "Hey, Disney?  I hope your seeing how cool I look with a cloak and everything!  If y'all need any more Jedis for your Star Wars films, I'm available!"

Honestly, kind of a slow episode, since I suspect the final episode is going to be the more lively one, and this was mainly setting things up to get there.  So, basically Oliver is turned into this new form thanks to Jim Corrigan, and helps get the Paragons to "the beginning of the universe", in order to stop the Anti-Monitor and create a new universe.  Oh, and it require them having to put everyone in the Speed Force and they end up in "significant" parts of the other characters' lives.  That's a lot to take in!

Ezra Miller's cameo was definitely a big get for the show.  Wish they could get more, but I feel like the only one they'd have a shot with would be Zachary Levi, since Gal Gadot and Jason Momoa are probably too famous now, and Henry Cavill is busy fighting off monsters, witches, and annoying bards on The Witcher!

Really enjoying Osric Chau as Ryan Choi and curious to see more his character going forward.

Kara does do some good pep talks, but I think we all know that Joe West is the Paragon of Pep Talks!

Cool seeing Sara back in her black outfit for a second.

I guess Oliver is really dead, now?  If so, Barry and Sara being the ones with him is better than the first go-around, although both Diggle and Felicity really should have been the ones.  I guess we'll see how this plays out in an hour!

[jmonique]

Am I the only one who wonders things like: How did the Paragons eat for all those months? 

[MarkHB]

I am interested in seeing how Oliver's story really ends. I see three possibilities:

1. He continues to be The Spectre. That makes him an immortal zombie (easy to drop in on the 2040 spinoff, or anywhere else) with nigh-infinite powers (literal deus ex machina if they need one). This is my favorite because I love The Spectre.

2. The Monitor is able to resurrect him (maybe the rest of the world doesn't know) and he gets a Happily Ever After with Felicity in wherever she went to at the end of last season.

3. He's just dead.

 

[adora721]

9 hours ago, DanaK said:

I was underwhelmed by this and didn’t find it enjoyable. It didn’t really click for me until the last few minutes. I can’t really explain why it didn’t work other than I wasn’t really engaged by the “flashbacks” or people dropping in on them

The acting and dialogue were very bad and cringeworthy all around in this episode. Perhaps the actors were just exhausted at this point or something and were phoning in their performances.

[Velocity23]

The fact that none of the so-called Olivers friends picked up a phone and called Felicity shows how little they actually cared. They are all bums. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

But WTF, how was Lex Luthor a hero in this story? In all Superman iterations, Lex Luthor is always the big bad. 

 

FUCKING BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!BULLSHIT!BULLSHIT!

10 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Great to see Lex look out for himself. I still feel John Cryer's unambiguous portrayal is better than Michael Rosenbaum's Lex forever teetering on the fence between good and evil.

There is NOTHING unambiguous about Cryer's portrayal. All I see is Duckie when I see him playing "Lex." Rosenbaum's Lex didn't "teeter" on the fence. We knew, watching that show, that Lex would eventually become evil, because that's how the creators/writers roll. What I enjoyed and loved about Rosenbaum's Lex was his battle with his inner demons and dark side to stay good. But when he turned, it was marvelous. Well, except for his final season. But that's just me.

Had to work all night so missed this and the final part, and tonight will be another all-nighter, so I'll have to catch this over the weekend. But shit, nothing I've read thus far here, makes me want to watch.

 

[tv echo]

If the entire multi-verse was wiped out by anti-matter, except for the Paragons, Oliver, Corrigan and the Anti-Monitor, then how did Ezra Miller's Barry Allen/Flash appear to our Barry?

I know the other people who appeared in the Speed Force were there due to Oliver's or a Paragon's memories, but Ezra Miller's Barry is unconnected to Oliver or any of the Paragons.

Or is the Speed Force like the Quantum Realm, where EM's Barry escaped the anti-matter wave?

Edited January 15, 2020 by tv echo

[quarks]

Supposedly, Barry was running around the SpeedForce trying to find the moments when the Arrowverse characters formed their initial bonds - thus Oliver and Kara's early interactions during the Aliens Invading crossover episodes, and Ray and Oliver talking to each other back in season three. These weren't necessarily their first interactions, but the first times they were able to really speak to each other and express their viewpoints, without an audience around.

So as much as I was not exactly thrilled to see a rerun of Some of Arrow's Less Than Greatest Hits (particularly the Ray/Oliver moment - that moment was in an episode that I regard as one of the lowest moments in the very uneven season 3), I at least got those choices. Even if Kate just happening to overhear Oliver and Ray having an unfriendly chat felt a bit random.

But the Diggle/Original Laurel/Dead Sara moment from season three? Not so much. This wasn't when Sara and Original Laurel had their bonding moment post island (that was back in season two, at the bar after the Uncomfortable Dinner We Would All Like To Forget, or alternatively in the season two episode when the Huntress returned), or when Laurel and Diggle had their bonding moment (again, at the end of season two - offscreen - when Diggle went to ask Laurel to help a very depressed Oliver, or alternatively, later in season three, when Diggle and Laurel teamed up.). Or when Sara and Not-Laurel teamed up/bonded after Quentin's death, or any of the potential off-screen interactions between Diggle and Not-Laurel during season 6 and 7. Or, for that matter, when Diggle and Sara first met back in season two, or when Diggle and Resurrected Sara met again in season four. I think it's also extremely probable that Diggle and Sara had at least a couple of one on one conversations back in season two without Felicity, Oliver and Roy anywhere in the vicinity. It's also quite possible that Diggle and Original Laurel met during the summer between seasons 1 and 2, after Oliver returned to the island, just to discuss what happened to him. (I don't think that was ever mentioned on the show, but it's an easy fanwank.)

Which is to say, this episode had any number of alternative scenes that they could have used - some of which could also have been filmed on a limited/existing set, so "we need to save money" isn't really an excuse here. And many of those scenes would have had a stronger emotional impact - or alternatively, could have been played for laughs in an episode that, yes, did have its amusing moments, but was still angsty enough to cause a severe emotional whiplash effect when it was immediately followed by a more lighthearted episode. 

Ah well. It wouldn't be an episode of Arrow if it didn't feature missed opportunities.

[Sakura12]

This ep was kind of meh. They really should've scrapped the speedforce memories because those were kind of pointless. I would rather have seen the Paragons learning to work together and bonding and fighting CGI monsters with Spectre Oliver. The most interesting part was they got Ezra Miller to make a cameo. 

If the Speedforce dropped them in memories where they formed bonds how did Sara form any bonds when she was dead? Or was that just another attempt at them saying Laurel was destined to be the Canary. Which is a weird thing to show when the only Canary that actually gets to fight and be part of the crossovers is Sara. 

 

 

[statsgirl]

10 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Seems fitting since he kickstarted the Arrowverse.

I think that's what they intended. I can almost see Beth and Marc patting themselves on the back for being so  clever.

11 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I sadly think that horrible scene between Laurel and Diggle was supposed to be real and the start of her taking over as Black Canary. They managed to make Laurel putting on the mask even worse than when it first happened. Sara's body wasn't even cold and Laurel was fondling her mask and Diggle was encouraging her to take over. Diggle would never do that! He knew that Laurel wasn't physically capable of being a vigilante because he knew she'd been a damsel in distress several times, including just a few months prior. No way would he encourage anyone to be a vigilante when they weren't up to the job. Also he and Laurel weren't friends yet so him being the one to suggest that she take over for Sara, who he knew and loved enough to name his newborn daughter after, really doesn't make sense. We know Laurel was beyond angry after Sara's death, leading her to attack at least one innocent person, so if she were talking revenge and Dig said something about how working out always helped him sort his thoughts and deal with his emotions then we could extrapolate that had some influence on her eventually doing those boxing lessons. Instead we had Diggle being wildly out of character and Laurel's path to Black Canary starting off even more insulting that it originally was.

And then there is how much Diggle objected to Laurel with her month of boxing lessons joining them in the field after Oliver "died".The opposite of what we saw in that scene.

That Diggle/Laurel scene is the very definition of fan service. And most likely added to push Laurel as a heroine for the pilot next week.

But it reflects how badly they've handled Laurel from the beginning, ping ponging between the idea of Laurel from the comic books and Katie Cassidy's acting strengths which are better shown in the sarcastic anti-hero of the Black Siren.  The constant rewriting of who she is.

Trying to please all doesn't make for good programs.

[Starry]

The Speed Force scenes were just confusing to me. Oliver told Barry to look for moments of greatest victories, greatest losses and bonding moments. The Ray/Oliver scene didn't fit and what was Kate doing there? Sara dying could be seen as a great loss. Oliver and Kara might have bonded during the Invasion crossover but J'onn wasn't even a part of it. I guess Oliver meant greatest losses, victories and bonding moments for himself not necessarily for the Paragons. Except he wasn't present in the Sara death scene.

The Ezra Miller cameo was random and out of place considering the more serious tone of the rest of the Speed Force scenes.

Kara should have been told that Oliver made a pact to save her life.

It was a strange episode and after watching Part 5 I wish they had made the Speed Force parts shorter to save up time for the Monitor, AntiMonitor and Pariah's backstories. Also, the Spectre could have been built up better. I was positive we were going to see Oliver's journey to becoming this powerful being but we got zilch.

But there were moments I enjoyed like the Kara and Ryan bonding scenes. I chuckled when Kara forced Lex to volunteer.

I also liked Oliver's death scene in this one better than the one they gave him in Part 1. Barry and Sara are the Paragons who were the closest to him. It was fitting that they were the only ones there when he died. It was also nice that the last thing Oliver saw was a new universe forming, a universe that now exists because of him.

 

[Trini]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

If the entire multi-verse was wiped out by anti-matter, except for the Paragons, Oliver, Corrigan and the Anti-Monitor, then how did Ezra Miller's Barry Allen/Flash appear to our Barry?

Yeah, I had the same question.

Quote

I know the other people who appeared in the Speed Force were there due to Oliver's or a Paragon's memories, but Ezra Miller's Barry is unconnected to Oliver or any of the Paragons.

Or is the Speed Force like the Quantum Realm, where EM's Barry escaped the anti-matter wave?

I think *Speed Force Shenanigans* is the easiest explanation. Other speedsters are able to escape to there.

[Aeryn13]

It wasn`t the best episode, it most certainly wasn`t the best x-over but I teared up at certain points in the this episode (and the next).

Now the Arrowverse truly is the Arrowverse in the meta-est sense of the world. Even the DCEU is in it now. 

The moments they revisited from previous Seasons were kind of weird. Oliver and Ray arguing? Couldn`t be more random. Dead Sara? Just to get Original!Laurel in? That was some cameo weirdness, other than maybe Digg`s line about heroes being the one to inspire.

I don`t know much about Spectre but I believe he is more powerful in the comics. Guess that wouldn`t a) be in budget and b) make everything obsolete if he could just snap his fingers, delete the Anti-Monitor and bring back the multiverse and everything goes for ice-cream after.  

Will decide how I feel about Ollie`s end after the Season Finale. Yes, he went out as a great hero and was acknowledged as such - which hooray, especially after x-overs always took potshots at him - but he and his own family deserve some personal happiness as well. He was always such a tortured character in his own way, I just love that Felicity could bring a light into his life noone else could despite having friends and family he deeply loved and vice versa.

I felt bad that Digg could never be there for his death. But I could live with it being Barry and Sara. One of the strongest things in the x-overs was the Oliver/Barry bromance and this was no exception. It also nicely highlighted the friendship Oliver and Sara had from "before". 

All in all, I could live with Oliver`s story here. Warts and all. 

 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Aeryn13

[tennisgurl]

I generally found this episode to be rather meh, especially for what is supposed to be such a major event, but I did find this ending for Oliver had much more impact than his first death. Oliver dying to destroy the biggest bad of all the bads and creating a new universe to save everyone is a much more fitting end than him getting shoved off a building fighting ring-wraiths or whatever. And more importantly, I was happy that Sara and Barry were there with him, the two people in the main group he was closest to. I have always loved his relationships with both of them, so I am glad that they were there with him. 

That all being said, I am still just really sad that Oliver is apparently, inevitably, doomed to die. He went through so much terrible stuff, only to find family and purpose and happiness and love, and he still dies without ever getting to raise his children or live a happy life with his wife. Its just so sad that such a tortured character finally found a bit of peace, only to have it torn away from him. 

The flashbacks were so random, what the hell did they have to do with anything? Ray and Oliver fighting back in his asshole phase? Dig telling Laurel that she needs to be the new BC, even though it completely contradicts what he would say that season while apparently yanking the mask off of Sara before her body was even cold? Kara and Oliver arguing over logistics? 

The brief cameo by Ezra was freaking awesome though, I thought we might get a vague allusion to the DCEU, not an actual actor showing up, so that was a great surprise. One of the best cameos of the whole crossover, which was a cameo-a-palooza in general.

Ryan Choi is a really fun addition to the Arrowverse (now more literal than ever!) even if I thought that his paragon stuff was underused, he was still a ton of fun to have around.

[Josh371982]

On 1/15/2020 at 12:35 AM, BkWurm1 said:

It wasn't a great episode to watch but Arrow in the crossovers has pulled worse ones.  I was ok with the flashbacks even if they didn't feel like they served much purpose until they got to Laurel and Diggle's "conversation"  That earned the crossover's first "HELL NO!!"  (literally yelled aloud, lol)  

There is NO WAY that Diggle would have told her at that stage in her life at her current skill level to "Be the Canary".  She was a fricken lawyer that hadn't even been brushing up on any of the self defense lessons she took back in freaking high school (per the canon until proven otherwise show comics)  

Diggle would never in a million years put that kind of burden on the fragile psyche of an only recently recently recovering addict and not only that, of ALL the people, Laurel was the one person that Diggle was most frustrated about in the past in how Oliver would go and make poor choices if he thought she was in danger.  Diggle wouldn't encourage her to create more problematic situations. 

And there's no way a man with Diggle's level of training would think it  a good idea for an office worker in her thirties to try to emulate her LoA trained sister that had just been killed.  It's beyond credulity.   

Best explanation I've heard.  Sara the paragon being there in the scene was the new twist added to the scene and once the paragons showed up, stuff in the flashbacks changed so I'm going with what is the least amount of crazy and "dead" Sara the paragon came up with her own "memories"  

Either way, what a weird reason to bring old Laurel back.  I wonder if it was all so they could do the surprise of Dead Sara not being dead lol.  

 

I liked the Oliver and Anti Monitor fight.  SA actually managed to pull off saying "You have failed this Universe" without it seeming cheesy. 

I do wish that the episode hadn't only focused on Oliver's past fights to prepare him for his final battle.  What about all the things that prepared him for those showdowns?  His will to give his all was never a question.  He prevailed for other reasons than determination. He always was ready to leave it all on the line.  

I found it really interesting how they moved Sara into Oliver's relationship with Barry.  Frankly, I like it but I was expecting Kate to get that nod.  

 

I like how they did that but I also kinda see it as Barry and Sara now being the longest standing Heroes in the Arrowverse with Oliver having died so let's have them get closer now plus Oliver being the biggest bond between them. 

[appositival]

I really felt sorry for the Anti-Monitor. He gets sucked into a universe where he can't interact with anything and apparently spends 13 billion years stuck in that wasteland with a bunch of CGI Dementors (who probably aren't great conversationalists "whoooOOOooooo").

The Monitor was a jerk and the Anti-Monitor became a jerk with a chip on his shoulder. If they had just sent him back to his anti-matter universe everyone would have been happy.

If only someone had the ability to travel in time.

[Featherhat]

22 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The flashbacks were so random, what the hell did they have to do with anything? Ray and Oliver fighting back in his asshole phase? Dig telling Laurel that she needs to be the new BC, even though it completely contradicts what he would say that season while apparently yanking the mask off of Sara before her body was even cold? Kara and Oliver arguing over logistics? 

Even if you go with the fact that the flashbacks needed to be memorable or intense, they still made no sense. Surely they could have come up with more interesting ones? It was interesting to see Ray in his Arrow Asshole days again after loving him for so long on LOT and him actually starting to become more tolerable very late on Arrow.

Kara and Oliver arguing when they first met was a call back to the (quite out of character) awkwardness in Invasion but it didn't really inform be of anything about them as teammates or whatever.

The Laurel one I have no idea what that was about except some weird need to big up E1 Laurel whilst still not including her or KC in anything beyond "Laurel was definitely the best- lets just tell it so we don't have to show it"  x1000- see also "she let me beat her at tree climbing" Sara you were definitely both competitive and sore losers see: Oliver. Her scene isn't even with Sara or Oliver, it's Dig, someone who is beloved and important but not really for her or Sara for that matter. Meanwhile Siren who actually had a potential role in the actual "Infinite Earths" part of this story is nowhere to be seen even in 1-3. 

[benteen]

Definitely the weakest of the four episodes, especially coming off of the last two episodes.  But there's some good stuff here.

Jon Cryer was definitely the highlight of this episode and he brings it.  He's still not as good as Michael Rosenbaum but I'd definitely put him second.  

I was spoiled but awesome having Ezra pop up as Movie Flash.

It's nice that Oliver actually died on his own show.

The action itself was never going to be able to live up to the epicness of this storyline.