S03.E05: Coup

[ItCouldBeWorse]

14 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, but the difference is?  WOMEN are crowned QUEEN if they marry or are married to a King.

As I said before, I understand Philip thinking that unfair.  It's not an endorsement of Philip, and I'm not even saying he should have been crowned King.  I do however?  Get it.

Queen Consort is just a title, though. It doesn't come with any more power than Prince Consort does.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, but the difference is?  WOMEN are crowned QUEEN if they marry or are married to a King.

As I said before, I understand Philip thinking that unfair.  It's not an endorsement of Philip, and I'm not even saying he should have been crowned King.  I do however?  Get it.

😉  Oh yeah, Philip was definitely marking his territory with that kiss, and double checking as well probably.

2 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Queen Consort is just a title, though. It doesn't come with any more power than Prince Consort does.

Yes, their basically the same. Queen Consort has no power just like Prince Consort. The King has all the power. George V reigned not George V and Mary III, just like it was George VI and not George VI and Elizabeth II. How much or how little they do depends completely on their husband. George VI was working on the papers from the red box. Not him and his wife. When their husband dies they don't get to keep their spots their son or daughter is the new monarch and has all the power. And is also head of their family. The Queen Consort loses her position, rank, home, and give up any jewels or anything else that belongs to the Queen. The Queen Mother talked a little in later episode of season one to her friends all that she lost no longer as Queen. Philip and other prince consorts whine all the time about all they have to give up. But women have always had to do that. Even when they were the actual heir. Making the Queen's husband a Prince Consort, keeps her power with her and her ruling in her own right rather then taken over by her husband.

[abronfeld1]

On 11/18/2019 at 4:42 AM, Rainsodden said:

As someone who knows way too much about horse racing, I have to say they got names and places right -- but there was a pretty significant blunder in the visuals. When they're at the training facility allegedly at Claiborne, it was clearly a British-style gallop with horses wearing British-style tack. There's quite a difference in the way racehorses are trained on either side of the Atlantic, and if you know anything about it, you can pick it out right away. It seemed to me they'd done some book research but hadn't had anyone to review the episode who actually knew racing, which was the same feeling I got from the last episode to feature racing. 

Also, I assume they're drawing from an actual trip the Queen did, but, boy, is 1967 a bit of an unfortunate year to review revamping training and breeding, because at this time, the first foals of the stallion who would come to dominate bloodlines internationally, Northern Dancer, are still yearlings in Canada (and it's few years before his son Nijinsky won the English Triple Crown), and it's also still a few years before Claiborne Farm became the home of Secretariat. Just a little bit too early for all sorts of milestones. 

(Yes, I'm sure I'm the only one who cares.) 

You are not alone. I was involved in some partnerships that owned and raced thoroughbreds. I am sure budget considerations prevented them from adopting your suggestions.

[Clanstarling]

On 11/17/2019 at 8:52 PM, swanpride said:

Well, if the show can be believed, Elizabeth's foreplay sucks. Big time.

We laughed about the royal "sexy talk." And yet, it was kind of sweet.
 

On 11/19/2019 at 8:35 AM, SeanC said:

There’s one line of Mountbatten’s that I thought was very off, the line about how England “gave [him] a name”.  The Battenberg/Mountbatten thing was very much a piece of the rampant anti-German xenophobia that destroyed his father’s naval career* and which Lord Louis was understandably very pissed off about.  I don’t think he would have talked about that in such a fond manner.

And yet it, at least according to the show, it was very important to him that Phillip take the name.

On 11/19/2019 at 9:40 AM, iMonrey said:

Also, everything they did to establish the relationship between Elizabeth and Porchie last season has been undone by the recasts. I don't have any sense of their connection anymore. 

I wasn't even sure they recast. So apparently it worked brilliantly for me.

On 11/20/2019 at 1:55 PM, qtpye said:

Tobias’s Phillip just screams big dick energy in such a way that I can totally understand why a queen (or anyone for that matter) would fall head over heels in love with him. This is even after I saw the actor play the most evil villain imaginable in Outlander.

He also played a fairly decent guy in a different role in Outlander. 🙂

On 11/20/2019 at 3:51 PM, swanpride said:

Sadly it would have been pretty difficult to find a man who wasn't entitled back then, especially in royal circles.

Only back then? 😉

12 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

It amuses and annoys me in equal measure that Philip gets jealous of Porchey. If anyone were going to cheat during the rough patches of Elizabeth and Philip's marriage—rough patches something all relationships go through—it wouldn't be Elizabeth. I don't think she had it in her.

Philip, on the other hand? Has an eye for the ladies. Always did. He certainly had close friendships with various women, no that means there were affairs.

Jealousy has no logic. And, seems to me, the most jealous men are those who've strayed (or come close to straying).

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, but the difference is?  WOMEN are crowned QUEEN if they marry or are married to a King.

As I said before, I understand Philip thinking that unfair.  It's not an endorsement of Philip, and I'm not even saying he should have been crowned King.  I do however?  Get it.

😉  Oh yeah, Philip was definitely marking his territory with that kiss, and double checking as well probably.

Part of the problem is the the title "King" is itself deeply imbued with the connotation of power. Historically most men with the title have been the actual King with actual power.

On the other head, when it comes to "Queen," far more women who've held that title (with or without "consort" attached to it) have not -  as opposed to those who have. 

So it's not just a title, it's the connotation of the title. So I can see the hesitation any monarchy would have in giving the consort a title with the same rank as the Queen.

[dubbel zout]

47 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

And yet it, at least according to the show, it was very important to [Lord Mountbatten] that Phillip take the name.

Historically, this is true. What to call Philip once it became clear he and Elizabeth were on a path to marriage was a hot topic. The British government didn't want him to be a foreign prince, so taking the last name Mountbatten was pretty logical, IMO. It wasn't entirely out of the blue. If he went with his father's Greek family house, he'd be Philip Glücksburg, which probably was still too German for the times. Why not go with the Anglicized version of his mother's family name?

[Ohiopirate02]

With all this talk about Phillip being upset he is only a Prince or a Duke and not king, I am reminded that the only male spouse of a female English monarch to receive the title of King was William III back in 1688.  He also had a strong claim to the English throne, married Mary to strengthen it, and negotiated with the English to be styled King and to continue his reign after Mary had passed away.  It's not like England has had many Queens--Matlida, Mary, Elizabeth, Mary II, Anne, Victoria, and Elizabeth II.  Phillip had zero precedent for being styled a King Consort especially after Albert was only a Prince.  

[Trillian]

8 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

With all this talk about Phillip being upset he is only a Prince or a Duke and not king, I am reminded that the only male spouse of a female English monarch to receive the title of King was William III back in 1688.  He also had a strong claim to the English throne, married Mary to strengthen it, and negotiated with the English to be styled King and to continue his reign after Mary had passed away.  It's not like England has had many Queens--Matlida, Mary, Elizabeth, Mary II, Anne, Victoria, and Elizabeth II.  Phillip had zero precedent for being styled a King Consort especially after Albert was only a Prince.  

That’s not entirely true. Philip II of Spain was King with Mary I during their marriage.  Elizabeth I had no spouse. Of the 5 female rulers of England/Great Britain who were married during their reign, 2 of 5 ( the two Marys) had husbands who were called kings. If Mathilda is excluded (as she was arguably never properly recognized as queen, so recognition of the Duke of Anjou as King wouldn’t logically follow), it’s half and half each way before Elizabeth II.  As a great great grandson of Queen Victoria, he had his own claim to the throne.  It wouldn’t have been unreasonable or without precedent for Philip to expect to be King Consort.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Trillian said:

That’s not entirely true. Philip II of Spain was King with Mary I during their marriage.  Elizabeth I had no spouse. Of the 5 female rulers of England/Great Britain who were married during their reign, 2 of 5 ( the two Marys) had husbands who were called kings. If Mathilda is excluded (as she was arguably never properly recognized as queen, so recognition of the Duke of Anjou as King wouldn’t logically follow), it’s half and half each way before Elizabeth II.  As a great great grandson of Queen Victoria, he had his own claim to the throne.  It wouldn’t have been unreasonable or without precedent for Philip to expect to be King Consort.

That's also not exact either. Philip insisted on it and he was given the "title" but under Queen Mary's Marriage Act, all official documents had to be dated under both their names, he could not act without Mary's consent or appoint foreigners to office in England. England was also not obligated to support Philip or his father in their wars. Parliament would be called jointly under both.  And only during their marriage. He couldn't move her out of England either or any child they had or claim the crown for himself if Mary died. When he wanted England to declare war against France he had to go to England and ask. Mary was for it but her council was against it and only declared after Thomas Stafford invaded England and sacked Scarborough Castle with French help to depose Mary. That war ended with England losing the last of their French territory Calais.

[DianeDobbler]

I decided to finally binge watch the entire Crown after seeing a couple of scenes of Erin Doherty's Anne on youtube. I'd tried to before, but found Matt Smith's Phillip not just unbearable, but all wrong, and I couldn't keep going with the writing and acting. MMV of course. He looked right, but the rest ...so callow.

MMV, I know, but I think Tobias Menies is a much better actor. If  S1 and S2 had been cast with an actor of similar chops, the whole "He's an infuriating charismatic moody and unpredictable bad boy who is irresistable, alpha male, has so much man pain, blah de trope blah" - which I didn't feel they successfully pulled off at all, no matter how shopworn (and therefore, historically successful) this type of portrait has been - would have landed. I knew what I was supposed to be seeing, but didn't feel it. Me and the Fug Girls on Go Fug Yourself are likethat when it comes to this portrayal.

That said, this was an incredibly boring episode learning all about what a coup was with about nineteen more Crownsplaining examples than we needed for drama or info. But, the last scene between Phillip/Elizabeth IMO was the best written and the best acted in the entire series. Real subtext! Emotion! Heart! 

As played by Menzies, the first thing I got was he missed her.  But is aware of the Porchey developments, the length of time she was absent, and is cognizant she certainly or probably may not have missed him. And sort of knows he doesn't have much of a leg to complain too much. But still he missed her. And he's also trying to get a little info - how out of reach is she, how wound up by spending so much time with Porchey, how exciting is it for her to have Porchey on staff, did she miss him at all. He can't get much out of her, so turns to leave, but then turns around and goes to kiss her. In a different actor it would have played cliche like "Big papa's still got it." and trying to use sex as a power move. But here to me the kiss read as him telling her that he missed her and loves her and hopes she feels the same. Period. She'd said, "If you have something to say, say it now." and a few beats later, the kiss was what he had to say.

There was so much communication that came through not just the preliminary to the kiss and the kiss, but him mentioning Dickie, which was him expressing sympathy with her but also a way to channel the emotions they both were feeling. The pause before he spoke and the bit of a stammer when Phillip spoke were also telling of the emotion he was feeling. And there was ALSO the understanding of two mature people with history who still connect - it didn't read like a big dramatic beat in the middle of some histrionic relationship. You could feel the history. And the happiness on their faces as the scene ended was the sweetest. 

The second best scene of the series was Mountbatten and Lady Alice. There was SO MUCH Mountbatten in this which was just overkill, particularly with such a familiar actor a little goes a long way. IMO not only should his stuff in this been cut in half, minimally, but I was so mad when I realized we were going to get a coda scene with Lady Alice. But that, IMO, was one of the best played scenes too. I loved how you could see the aristocrat and privilege in Lady Alice coming out after we've mostly seen the nun persona, the intelligence and experience and even a little bit of snobbery (doughty queen, little girl) without being mean about it. AND I thought Charles Dance did a nice job of Mountbatten processing that he'd been defeated and possibly humiliated, and was able to handle with a bit of humor, which to me was unexpected. His "I did!" when Lady Alice asked if he'd gotten a dressing down was so well delivered. AND there was the sense that the conversation with his sister humanized him a bit and helped dismantle his wounded arrogance.

Edited November 29, 2019 by DianeDobbler

[Umbelina]

I agree with you about Mountbatten and Alice.  That was so good.  "WHO CARES?"

I disagree about the new Philip though.  I preferred the other actor.  This one is OK though.  As far as the kiss though?  That felt like he was marking his territory, it didn't feel romantic to me.  Elizabeth finally has a relationship with another guy, goes on a (show version) LONG trip with him.  Philip was jealous, decided to reassert his "husbandhood" over the wife.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I disagree about the new Philip though.  I preferred the other actor.  This one is OK though.  As far as the kiss though?  That felt like he was marking his territory, it didn't feel romantic to me.  Elizabeth finally has a relationship with another guy, goes on a (show version) LONG trip with him.  Philip was jealous, decided to reassert his "husbandhood" over the wife.

I saw the scene quite differently. The couple was going to the same path as in S1 ("my spouse did something that annoys me, so I answer with a way that make the situation worse and then my spouse answers in the same way to my act etc). But this time Philip who was reacting by going way, checked himself, and instead did something new. When he kissed his wife, she responded and he noticed that their realtionship was OK. I am sure they had a nice evening 🙂  

[mledawn]

I would tolerate that entire episode just to catch that final scene with Elizabeth and Philip again.

Ahhhhh Tobias and Olivia!

[merylinkid]

On 11/27/2019 at 10:32 PM, andromeda331 said:

That's also not exact either. Philip insisted on it and he was given the "title" but under Queen Mary's Marriage Act, all official documents had to be dated under both their names, he could not act without Mary's consent or appoint foreigners to office in England. England was also not obligated to support Philip or his father in their wars. Parliament would be called jointly under both.  And only during their marriage. He couldn't move her out of England either or any child they had or claim the crown for himself if Mary died. When he wanted England to declare war against France he had to go to England and ask. Mary was for it but her council was against it and only declared after Thomas Stafford invaded England and sacked Scarborough Castle with French help to depose Mary. That war ended with England losing the last of their French territory Calais.

Also King Phillip kinda came with the title.    He was already King of Spain in his own right.   So when most refer to him as King Phillip they are talking about that title, not anything in relation to his marriage with Mary.   Which Mary was only one of his several wives (they kept dying on him) and he spent about 10 days total (slight exaggeration) in England.   It's not like with Prince Philip who is there all the time and really has no duties other than what he can make for himself.    

Dickie on the other hand, got his knickers in a knot when that "upstart" Wilson dared to fire HIM.   HIM, the hero of WWII (I would give that title to Prince Philip) and the last Viceroy of India.   WHo was this Labour chappie to be firing him.    So in his entitled way, he decided to get even.     The Queen was darn right in dressing him down.

She might have loved to just raise horses as her life.   But when Wilson called, she knew what she had to do.   There was no hesitation "Leave him to me."   You almost felt sorry for Dickie knowing what was coming.   Almost.      This wasn't just her duty, this was full on Windsor "protect the family so we can keep our thrones" mode.    She was utterly ruthless without making a single threat or raising her voice.   Just laid it out how he was being an idiot and it was to stop IMMEDIATELY.

[Milburn Stone]

I found the episode engaging enough, but then I did a thought experiment on myself and tried to imagine exactly the same episode but with someone other than Charles Dance in the part. And I realized it would have totally sucked. Boy are they lucky they got him.

[lovinbob]

On 11/18/2019 at 5:55 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

Me, too. Tobias Menzies is killing it as Philip. He is quietly stealing every scene.

I am happy any time I get to see Charles Dance, especially when he has proximity to power. It is perfect casting for Lord Louie. Yet, his best scene was with Princess Alice.

I am shocked at how much I like Tobias Menzies as Philip. He's come a long way from Uncle Edmure! But Charles Dance--he could play Jeffrey Dahmer and still manage to charm me. 

On 11/20/2019 at 8:32 PM, qtpye said:

Did anyone else laugh when they showed how shitty Mountbatten’s farewell cake looked?

Yes! But I also thought it resembled a cake I've seen on The Great British Baking Show--the unusual color. 

On 11/23/2019 at 12:10 AM, Magnumfangirl said:

I agree.  They really threw Lord Mountbatten under the bus. Charles Dance was awesome in the role though.   In the scene with Alice and Dickie, the subtitles say Alice calls QEII "our doughty queen", but my ears heard "our dowdy queen."  Those two words have different meanings.  Which do you think is correct?  I assume "dowdy" because it's funnier; but maybe not??

I paused at that line because of the homophone but I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be doughty. I didn't have the impression Alice would want to be just blatantly unkind. (Dowdy would be mean; doughty just a little condescending/sarcastic.)

[dubbel zout]

Doughty isn't a negative; it means "marked by fearless resolution and by stoutness in contest or struggle," so I think Alice meant dowdy: "old-fashioned, out of date."  It's a little snarky, but she's talking to her brother.

/word nerd

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Doughty isn't a negative; it means "marked by fearless resolution and by stoutness in contest or struggle," so I think Alice meant dowdy: "old-fashioned, out of date."  It's a little snarky, but she's talking to her brother.

/word nerd

I didn't take it as being unkind, but many do see doughty people as dull and unimaginative because, I think, they're typically not flashy.

[Umbelina]

13 hours ago, lovinbob said:

I paused at that line because of the homophone but I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be doughty. I didn't have the impression Alice would want to be just blatantly unkind. (Dowdy would be mean; doughty just a little condescending/sarcastic.)

Doughty is a compliment, a big one.  Brave, persistent, fearless, gutsy, stouthearted.  She was complimenting the Queen, big time.

 

8 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I didn't take it as being unkind, but many do see doughty people as dull and unimaginative because, I think, they're typically not flashy.

I think QEII would take "not flashy" as an even bigger compliment, since that's exactly what she's been striving to be since her father died.

I would always take "doughty" as a compliment, but I probably wouldn't have while in my twenties or even early thirties, because in spite of the real meaning, it does connote (to me) a somewhat unattractive woman, kind of like when you search for a compliment that has nothing to do with their appearance or attractiveness, or kindness, thoughtfulness, etc.  Which if you think about it?  Actually makes it, in some ways, an even bigger compliment.

[chaifan]

On 11/27/2019 at 4:52 AM, andromeda331 said:

The Queen Consort loses her position, rank, home, and give up any jewels or anything else that belongs to the Queen.

ahhh... now that explains why Elizabeth will rule until the day she dies.  If she abdicates, she loses the jewels!  😉  Seriously, I would think there's a bit of a rush that the women in the family have to ask her permission to wear certain pieces. 

Count me as one of the many that felt this episode, for the most part, was rather boring.  With such a limited amount of time for this series it sucked that they wasted 1/2 an episode on a coup that never happened and characters we'll never see again.  If you cut all that out, no one would have ever noticed. 

[lovinbob]

19 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Doughty is a compliment, a big one.  Brave, persistent, fearless, gutsy, stouthearted.  She was complimenting the Queen, big time.

The tone and context--an elderly princess talking to her elderly prince brother about their younger daughter in law/cousin the Queen--made me feel there was a little bit of jest or condescension implied. 

[nora1992]

On 11/20/2019 at 7:32 PM, qtpye said:

Did anyone else laugh when they showed how shitty Mountbatten’s farewell cake looked?

I thought it was sent from Downing Street at first.

[Roseanna]

On 11/27/2019 at 8:45 AM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Queen Consort is just a title, though. It doesn't come with any more power than Prince Consort does.

Not nominally. 

But Prince Albert got power, first by becoming Queen Victoria's Private secretary which meant that he was her chief consellor and read everything in the Red box before her - probably even more thoroughly than her and thus controlled information available to her and even an access to her.  Second, he also created wide his own nets of relationships and it's during these he could informally infuence on matters even before they were formally decided.

As for Queen Consort. George VI was known to lean heavily on his wife and Queen. That is also shown in the series: in Vergangenheit she was present when he was told about his brother dealings with the Nazis, that is a secret of state.

Instead, Philp was totally excluded from the Red boxes Elizabeth got. Sometimes he learned something from his own informal contacts but f.ex. in Suez she didn't believe him. 

[OtterMommy]

I have to say that I found this episode surprisingly dull and didn’t feel that the two storylines—Elizabeth and her horse racing ambitions and Mountbatten and his, well, ambitions fit that well together.

That being said, the scene of Mountbatten addressing the group of veterans was so magnificent, both in acting and directing, that I felt as if it made my heart stop.  And the scene with Mountbatten and Alice was unbelievably touching.

Even when this show falls short, it seems to be head and shoulders above anything else (in my opinion).

[CeeBeeGee]

On 11/19/2019 at 11:04 AM, kwnyc said:

And no doubt, he saw himself as the de facto Prime Minister, if not a replacement for the Queen. (Remember that early in her reign, Victoria's relatives tried to get her out of the way so her Uncle George, the Duke of Cumberland, could be either named Regent or take the Crown.)

When the abdication was looming, apparently some advisors didn't think Elizabeth's father was suited for the throne (because of his severe stutter) and were pushing to go over him to the Duke of Gloucester or the Duke of Kent.

[paramitch]

On 11/23/2019 at 7:13 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I had the opposite reaction. It's so predictable and gross that his way of dealing with his petty jealousy was to get territorial and kiss her (especially considering all the rumors that he cheated on her throughout their marriage). If you're only interested in your wife when you think someone else is interested in her then you're just treating her like an object you own and trying to reclaim your territory. Blech.

I thought that was an interesting and genuinely surprising moment from Philip. Young Philip would have pouted, possibly slammed a few doors, and left her there to stew and wonder how, exactly, she'd hurt his manly little feelings again (and he would have made it about himself despite her own horrible day).

Instead, this older, more mature Philip, attempted not to show jealousy, but to show real support for her spending time with Porchey ("Good for you") and truly seemed to want to listen to her after navigating what had to have been a terrible day.

I didn't see Philip's kiss as possessive. I saw it as tender and romantic, as "You were gone for a month, I love you, and I am here for you," along with some undercurrents -- not of jealousy -- but of "I missed my wife."

Also, I'm with those who think Tobias Menzies is absolutely killing it as Philip. He's one of my favorite actors (and I think is so, so underrated and complex), but I was nervous about this casting when I heard of it. Yet for me, from moment one this season, Tobias simply, quietly, is Philip, and he brings a gravitas, humor and sweetness to the part that Matt Smith simply lacked for me (much as I usually love him). I often doubted that Smith's Philip truly loved Elizabeth; I have never doubted once this season that Menzies' Smith does deeply love her, even though their lives are so complicated and layered.

[MV713]

Unpopular opinion here.  I am bored silly by this season.  The cast is great, of course, but there is something missing with the chemistry of the actors.  Also the story lines are a horrible bore.  I find myself sleeping through half the episode and too lazy to rewatch.  Mind you I adored the mine accident episode (probably best of the series so far).  But these episodes heavy with English country historical events, politics, etc. are not doing it for me.

[Roseanna]

On 12/7/2019 at 6:48 PM, OtterMommy said:

That being said, the scene of Mountbatten addressing the group of veterans was so magnificent, both in acting and directing, that I felt as if it made my heart stop. 

I agree that he was a great orator. But what he spoke was sheer nonsense: creating nostalgia about the war and belittling young generations. 

If he had been a wise man, he would have tried to get his audience to accept facts (that the Empire was lost) and try to find a new role for Britain. 

Let's not forget that for all its problems, the post-war Britain had been a better place for ordinary men.

[Eeksquire]

Quote

Unpopular opinion here.  I am bored silly by this season.

Agreed.  I am struggling to talk myself into continuing to watch.

[merylinkid]

On 12/11/2019 at 5:02 PM, Roseanna said:

I agree that he was a great orator. But what he spoke was sheer nonsense: creating nostalgia about the war and belittling young generations. 

If he had been a wise man, he would have tried to get his audience to accept facts (that the Empire was lost) and try to find a new role for Britain. 

Let's not forget that for all its problems, the post-war Britain had been a better place for ordinary men.

People of his class and his generation didn't care about the ordinary man.   To them, the ordinary man should "know his place" and defer to his "betters" on subjects like politics.   To him, the Empire was lost BECAUSE ordinary men dared "to get above their station."  He was doing exactly what he had been raised to do all his life, take control and fix things.   To him, putting the "right" class back in power would have fixed any problems and made life in Britain better.   

[Aliferously]

I'm going to second and third the Dickie and Alice scene. It was so adorably bittersweet. Especially "Alice, Princess of Nowhere At All".

Not sure if Philip was being flippant about not seeing her for a month. These people live in a palace with a thousand rooms, they can live under the same roof and never actually catch sight of eachother. I also had to impression that she'd only been gone a week or so. 

 

 

[vavera4ka]

On 11/27/2019 at 9:19 AM, Clanstarling said:

He also played a fairly decent guy in a different role in Outlander. 🙂

#teamFrank

lol

 

I saw that last scene as both "marking territory" and expression of affection. Phillip was jealous (the nuances in Tobias' facial expressions are just amazing. who needs a monologue!). It was actually fun to watch a ladies' man being threatened by a "nice boy" lol

He went in for that kiss as a mature adult's version of a tantrum. Subdued anger and affection in one. Yes it was him kissing his wife to assert his position, but it was also to express and "remind her" that he does love and care for her. 

I'm still amazed at the casting of Menzies. When i saw photos of him in make up next to Phillip of those times, i though, i guess, it's close-ish... I was down for him as Phillip though cause I adore him. Bu that grin when he was leaving her office, with his face half obscured by shadow, i swear, for a split second i thought Prince William is gonna emerge into a fully lit part of the scene.

Edited December 23, 2019 by vavera4ka

[Scarlett45]

21 hours ago, vavera4ka said:

#teamFrank

lol

 

I saw that last scene as both "marking territory" and expression of affection. Phillip was jealous (the nuances in Tobias' facial expressions are just amazing. who needs a monologue!). It was actually fun to watch a ladies' man being threatened by a "nice boy" lol

He went in for that kiss as a mature adult's version of a tantrum. Subdued anger and affection in one. Yes it was him kissing his wife to assert his position, but it was also to express and "remind her" that he does love and care for her. 

I'm still amazed at the casting of Menzies. When i saw photos of him in make up next to Phillip of those times, i though, i guess, it's close-ish... I was down for him as Phillip though cause I adore him. Bu that grin when he was leaving her office, with his face half obscured by shadow, i swear, for a split second i thought Prince William is gonna emerge into a fully lit part of the scene.

Yes- the jealous kiss wasn’t just “how dare you give another man attention”, (which was there don’t get me wrong), but “hey I still dig you and think you’re sexy, let me show you, case you forgot while you were with someone else-hubba hubba”. I was fine with it and thought it was realistic given this point in their relationship. 

[sas616]

On 11/20/2019 at 4:55 PM, qtpye said:

In the first two seasons I really could not understand why the future queen of England fell for such an entitled whining Howdy Doodey looking moron. It made me respect her less.

Tobias’s Phillip just screams big dick energy in such a way that I can totally understand why a queen (or anyone for that matter) would fall head over heels in love with him. This is even after I saw the actor play the most evil villain imaginable in Outlander.

Unfortunately, for me, I cannot get into Tobias as Phillip because of his role in Outlander.   First, he has such a distinctive voice, all I can hear is Black Jack Randall.  Second, he has brought several of Black Jack's mannerisms into the role of Phillip that I cannot see anyone but that evil character.

[Blakeston]

On 12/24/2019 at 7:31 AM, sas616 said:

Unfortunately, for me, I cannot get into Tobias as Phillip because of his role in Outlander.   First, he has such a distinctive voice, all I can hear is Black Jack Randall.  Second, he has brought several of Black Jack's mannerisms into the role of Phillip that I cannot see anyone but that evil character.

I binged Outlander shortly before this season of The Crown was released. I was really worried that whenever Prince Phillip showed up onscreen, I would flashback to Tobias Menzies as Black Jack Randall stroking his flaccid cock in the hopes of getting hard enough to commit rape. That image is burned into my memory.

But fortunately for me, I found him to be drastically different in this series, to the point that I would completely forget that he's the same actor.

[vavera4ka]

BJR for me was such a cartoony bad guy ( no fault of Tobias, it’s how he was written) with absolutely no redeeming qualities or reasons for being the absolute worst human being ever other than just to be the contrast of a “good boy Jamie” that he never really seemed real and that scary. I am forever #teamFrank though lol 

so had absolutely no reservations about the “new” Phillip. In terms of “quality as a human being” Phillip is a step down from Frank...

Edited December 28, 2019 by vavera4ka

[CountryGirl]

This moment was everything. 

Also, those scenes with Dickie and Alice...some of my favorite of the entire series. 

[Black Knight]

On 12/4/2019 at 7:22 AM, dubbel zout said:

Doughty isn't a negative; it means "marked by fearless resolution and by stoutness in contest or struggle," so I think Alice meant dowdy: "old-fashioned, out of date."  It's a little snarky, but she's talking to her brother.

/word nerd

The captioning had it as "doughty." And brother or not, Alice wouldn't be that unkind about the woman who brought her to safety in England and made it possible for her to begin a reconciliation with her son. She's snarking on her brother, not on Elizabeth - she's amused by the dressing-down he got.

"Dowdy" also makes no sense in the scene, both in context (that descriptor isn't relevant at all) and from the speaker (Alice the ancient woman who goes about in a nun's habit) and to the listener (Mountbatten who is the definition of out of date). And Alice talked about how she and her brother are so very old, so she's certainly aware. Meanwhile the definition of "doughty" you posted includes "contest or struggle," so it's highly relevant and on point since Alice is referencing the confrontation in which Elizabeth exerted her power over Mountbatten.

[Linderhill]

On 12/14/2019 at 6:58 AM, merylinkid said:

People of his class and his generation didn't care about the ordinary man.   To them, the ordinary man should "know his place" and defer to his "betters" on subjects like politics.   To him, the Empire was lost BECAUSE ordinary men dared "to get above their station."  He was doing exactly what he had been raised to do all his life, take control and fix things.   To him, putting the "right" class back in power would have fixed any problems and made life in Britain better.   

this reminds me of the fact that my father, a WWII US Army veteran hated Mountbatten with a passion so strong that he didn't even like the English ladies my mother had as penpals.  When these lovely ladies finally came over to visit mom in the states, she had to insist that he behave politely because they had nothing to do with "Monty" as he called him.  (hopefully I'm not mixing him up with a Montgomery but knowing my dad, he probably disliked both.  He was in the hospital there for 9 months)

Edited January 14, 2020 by Linderhill

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Linderhill said:

this reminds me of the fact that my father, a WWII US Army veteran hated Mountbatten with a passion so strong that he didn't even like the English ladies my mother had as penpals.  When these lovely ladies finally came over to visit mom in the states, she had to insist that he behave politely because they had nothing to do with "Monty" as he called him.  (hopefully I'm not mixing him up with a Montgomery but knowing my dad, he probably disliked both.  He was in the hospital there for 9 months)

That doesn't surprise me. There were a lot of veterans US and UK who hated Mountbatten and after reading his military mistakes that got a lot of soldiers killed I'm with them. There's a YouTube video that goes into them. 

ETA to add I found the video @Umbelina mentioned in History talk thread

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by andromeda331

[Inquisitionist]

On 12/3/2019 at 10:18 PM, Milburn Stone said:

I found the episode engaging enough, but then I did a thought experiment on myself and tried to imagine exactly the same episode but with someone other than Charles Dance in the part. And I realized it would have totally sucked. Boy are they lucky they got him.

 

On 12/4/2019 at 7:01 AM, lovinbob said:

I am shocked at how much I like Tobias Menzies as Philip. He's come a long way from Uncle Edmure! But Charles Dance--he could play Jeffrey Dahmer and still manage to charm me. 

Color me baffled.  I have never understood the appeal of Charles Dance.  

[RedbirdNelly]

like others, I especially loved the scene with Princess Alice. 

[PeterPirate]

There is one nice scene when Elizabeth is having dinner with Porchy when they allowed Olivia Colman to use facial gestures.

 

On 1/13/2020 at 9:44 PM, Linderhill said:

this reminds me of the fact that my father, a WWII US Army veteran hated Mountbatten with a passion so strong that he didn't even like the English ladies my mother had as penpals.  When these lovely ladies finally came over to visit mom in the states, she had to insist that he behave politely because they had nothing to do with "Monty" as he called him.  (hopefully I'm not mixing him up with a Montgomery but knowing my dad, he probably disliked both.  He was in the hospital there for 9 months)

My gut reaction is that he was talking about Montgomery.  I had uncles who fought for the United States who made similar comments about Monty.  There are two famous war movies, Patton and A Bridge Too Far, wherein Montgomery comes across quite badly.  Monty doesn't appear in the second movie, except in some brief archival footage, but Americans who follow war history generally give Monty the lion's share of the blame for that debacle.  I am not aware of any stories that blame Mountbatten for the loss of American lives.  

 

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by PeterPirate

[zoey1996]

On 11/22/2019 at 9:02 AM, pasdetrois said:

Anyone remember the old Betty Crocker photo? Colman looks just like it in her close-ups.

My mom had that same hairstyle circa 1968 and thereabouts.

I’m quite enjoying Colman and Menzies in their roles.

[Bill1978]

On 11/28/2019 at 4:00 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

Phillip had zero precedent for being styled a King Consort especially after Albert was only a Prince.  

This comment reminded me of the story of Guildford Dudley having a tantrum in the Tower of London when Jane refused to make him King alongside her Queenship. Seems the husband of a Queen has been throwing tantrums since 1553

On 11/28/2019 at 12:45 PM, Trillian said:

Philip II of Spain was King with Mary I during their marriage.

As others have said this was really only on paper, no one in England really saw him as an equal to Mary. And if my memory serves me correctly, Parliament only agreed to the marriage if Mary agreed to the terms that prevented him from really being King. I could be wrong on this as I only learnt last week that Louis VIII of France ruled England as Louis I for 15 months before signing a treaty that acknowledged that he was never the monarch of England. History really only ever talks about William III & Mary II as co-monarchs when it comes to monarchs of England. 

[CeeBeeGee]

On 7/19/2020 at 6:31 AM, Bill1978 said:

This comment reminded me of the story of Guildford Dudley having a tantrum in the Tower of London when Jane refused to make him King alongside her Queenship. Seems the husband of a Queen has been throwing tantrums since 1553

I love that story. Jane's pathetically brief life was rife with abuse and a removal of her agency, so the one time she was able to put her foot down, I'm glad she did. That whole attempted coup by Northumberland makes me absolutely furious. The movie Lady Jane invents and changes a lot but it sure captured the tragedy of her whole situation. 

[mledawn]

I've been listening to the official podcast of The Crown and was really interested to learn that the kiss I so enjoyed with Phillip and Elizabeth was unscripted and all Tobias. Apparently he did it in rehearsal unprompted, and everyone loved it and they left it in. 

[Umbelina]

58 minutes ago, mledawn said:

I've been listening to the official podcast of The Crown and was really interested to learn that the kiss I so enjoyed with Phillip and Elizabeth was unscripted and all Tobias. Apparently he did it in rehearsal unprompted, and everyone loved it and they left it in. 

Sorry, it's the second time I've heard about this "official podcast."  Do you have a link?  TIA

[mledawn]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Sorry, it's the second time I've heard about this "official podcast."  Do you have a link?  TIA

Honestly, search "The Crown Official Podcast" and it will come up. Unfortunately only the third and fourth season are covered, and they're only up to episode 3 or 4 for the current/fourth season.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, mledawn said:

Honestly, search "The Crown Official Podcast" and it will come up. Unfortunately only the third and fourth season are covered, and they're only up to episode 3 or 4 for the current/fourth season.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-crown-the-official-podcast/id1485757121

Someone else posted it.  

[Camera One]

I took a longer break before this one.  I agree the first half was a tad slow and seemingly aimless with the two disparate storylines.  Like everything so far in Season 3, I thought it made Elizabeth look bad as she distractedly thought about horses when the Prime Minister was outlining the currency woes.  

Still, I think this is the first episode this season which actually had a moment where you could feel for/identify with Elizabeth, when she spoke to Porchie.  But this one scene is still not enough.  They needed to have a lot more like this in the first few episodes to re-establish this older Elizabeth.  Before launching off into episodes about Margaret and everyone else.  

The more I see of Season 3, the more I think it's not really a continuation of Season 1-2.  It's more like a separate reboot about the Queen.  I'm going to need to actively remind myself of this to make this season "work" in any way.

For half the episode, I didn't realize the Lord Mountbatten was the same one from the first two seasons.  This actor had a very strong presence and did a great job, but he exuded coldness.  While the guy from before was pompous but exuded warmth and a relaxed nature.  

Like everyone else, I did enjoy the scene between Lord Mountbatten and his sister at the end.