S39.E08: We Made it to the Merge!

[HahYallDoin]

My daughter, a senior, is currently being considered for appointment to the US Coast Guard Academy and US Merchant Marine Academy. We have made visits to both campuses and participated in several presentations about honesty, integrity. morals, sexual harassment and the proper avenues to take when reporting a violation...whether the violation was against you, took place in your presence or was reported to you by a fellow cadet. 

In light of this,  Missy and Aaron knew better, at some point, than how they acted with regard to the Kellee and Dan situation. 

I also have no problem saying that they are both disgusting pigs!!! Who among us would want either of these people in charge of their child's professional life or living amongst them? It's sickening to me! Of course Missy knew she should speak up, at the least to support Janet at TC. I know it is a game but, damn Missy, your participation in such an exploit shows your true colors. Her choice to play loose with the situation makes me question her integrity. 

Aaron proved that he's one of those assholes who doesn't believe anyone's story if he didn't see it with his own two eyes...or unless someone came to him with the story. At which point, I'm sure he'd call their crying sniveling and accuse them of being too sensitive...and still wouldn't believe it. He's the type to dismiss things as "you know how guys are" bullshit. 

These two had the best military education in the world and both are nearly morally bankrupt, imo. Thank God neither is serving currently. Is it any wonder that sexual harassment at the five academies and in the services is ticking upwards, with people like these two in the ranks?

*I'm pissed at the others too, don't get be wrong. It is just that these two really rankle me because we are in the middle of academy "stuff" right now.*

Edited November 14, 2019 by HahYallDoin
Two typos and insert the word "neither."

[Rachel RSL]

27 minutes ago, Lamima said:

How do you KNOW it is?

Isn't it convenient that when Dan feels the need to touch someone because it's freezing cold, or he has to get by them, or run his fingers through someone's hair for a random dirt check, or tickle someone's toes for no reason...it's always a woman?  Funny how "Gosh, I'm just an affectionate guy" Dan only seems to have that affliction when he's around the women.

[Special K]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

He is clearly a serial inappropriate toucher of women, at a minimum.

And he thinks that he is such "a nice guy" that if you have problem with it, it must be your problem.  If you say "no" it must be because you misunderstood what benign intentions he had.

If doesn't matter if he is trying to flirt (I don't think that's the case), or getting sexually aroused himself (ick), or if he just likes putting his meaty paws on young pretty women (I think that's more the case), no means no, no matter how nice a guy you think you are.

3 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

Isn't it convenient that when Dan feels the need to touch someone because it's freezing cold, or he has to get by them, or run his fingers through someone's hair for a random dirt check, or tickle someone's toes for no reason...it's always a woman?  Funny how "Gosh, I'm just an affectionate guy" Dan only seems to have that affliction when he's around the women.

It's always the young, thin women.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, HahYallDoin said:

My daughter, a senior, is currently being considered for appointment to the US Coast Guard Academy and US Merchant Marine Academy. We have made visits to both campuses and participated in several presentations about honesty, integrity. morals, sexual harassment and the proper avenues to take when reporting a violation...whether the violation was against you, took place in your presence or was reported to you by a fellow cadet. 

In light of this,  Missy and Aaron knew better, at some point, than how they acted with regard to the Kellee and Dan situation. 

I also have no problem saying that they are both disgusting pigs!!! Who among us would want either of these people in charge of their child's professional life or living amongst them? It's sickening to me! Of course Missy knew she should speak up, at the least to support Janet at TC. I know it is a game but, damn Missy, your participation in such an exploit shows your true colors. Her choice to play loose with the situation makes me question her integrity. 

Aaron proved that he's one of those assholes who doesn't believe anyone's story if he didn't see it with his own two eyes...or unless someone came to him with the story. At which point, I'm sure he'd call their crying sniveling and accuse them of being too sensitive...and still wouldn't believe it. He's the type to dismiss things as "you know how guys are" bullshit. 

These two had the best military education in the world and both are nearly morally bankrupt, imo. Thank God neither is serving currently. Is it any wonder that sexual harassment at the five academies and in the services is ticking upwards, with people like these two in the ranks?

*I'm pissed at the others too, don't get be wrong. It is just that these two really rankle me because we are in the middle of academy "stuff" right now.*

Somewhat in Aaron's defense, he put out a tearful apology on Twitter today (Missy, Elizabeth and Dan have been silent).   

Also, while I thought his comment that if it was true, he would know about it was idiotic:

a) He didn't know what really did or did not happen.  Missy and Elizabeth both knew for sure that Janet was telling the truth and they were lying.

b) He wasn't wrong that someone was lying about sexual harassment, as a move in the game.  He was totally wrong about Janet, but Missy and Elizabeth were doing exactly what he accused Janet of.   

[Bryce Lynch]

15 minutes ago, Special K said:

And he thinks that he is such "a nice guy" that if you have problem with it, it must be your problem.  If you say "no" it must be because you misunderstood what benign intentions he had.

If doesn't matter if he is trying to flirt (I don't think that's the case), or getting sexually aroused himself (ick), or if he just likes putting his meaty paws on young pretty women (I think that's more the case), no means no, no matter how nice a guy you think you are.

It's always the young, thin women.

I agree 100%.  I do believe Dan gets some sort of sexual gratification or thrill out of pawing these young women.  But, even if he doesn't you don't put your effing hands on a woman unless it is crystal clear that the contact is welcome.   Regardless of the intent and psychology behind it, Dan's behavior is deviant.  

Would he brush back Jack's hair and touch his face like that?  

Here is a rule of thumb:

1) If you wouldn't touch another man that way, don't touch a woman that way.

2) If you would touch a another man that way, don't touch a woman that way.  

Don't touch a woman unless she has made it clear to you that such touching is welcome.  You can extend your hand for a handshake, fist bump, or whatever, or in the right circumstance open your arms to offer a hug.  But, if she doesn't reciprocate, hands off.  

Edited November 14, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[ProfCrash]

I think Aaron put out a video because he was duped. He believed Missy and Elisabeth. It was in his games best interest to believe them and they probably told them that Kellee and Janet were exaggerating or lying. We did not see those conversations but we did see Elisabeth admit that she was crying to Janet and said that she was uncomfortable to Janet. Then when Janet walked away, Elisabeth told Dan that she only said that to get Janet off her back.

We know that was bullshit. Elisabeth never felt uncomfortable. Elisabeth told Janet she was uncomfortable after Missy told her to tell Janet she was so that Janet would vote out Dan. We know Elisabeth fabricated her story. And we know that Elisabeth lied to Dan about that exchange.

Dan wants to believe Missy and Elisabeth because Dan doesn't want to think he was making people uncomfortable. Dan doesn't want to believe that he is going to be portrayed as being inappropriate. So Dan is willing to believe Missy and Elisabeth because it is in Dan's best interest to do so.

Aaron was not close to Kellee and she did not discuss her feelings with Aaron. Aaron is close to Missy and Elisabeth and is going to believe them when they lie about what happened.

Aaron was an ass in how he phrased things and came off as a douche BUT Aaron had the wool pulled over his eyes, just like Janet did. It's just that Aaron was on the wrong side of things and handled it miserably badly.

I suspect that last night was the first time Aaron saw how badly he had been played by Missy and Elisabeth. heck, I bet it was the first time that Dan saw how badly he had been played by Missy and Elisabeth. I hope that Dan is getting an earful from his wife or his inappropriate touching and his refusal to hear the word no.

For the record, I don't believe I have called Dan a predator or said that I think he was going to hurt anyone. I do believe that Dan was told No and should have honored that no. I do believe that Dan was touching people in weird ways. I have no idea why anyone, sans my husband, would be stroking my leg. Dan should have heard the word and read the body language, but he didn't.

Whether other people on the tribe were uncomfortable or not, Kellee was uncomfortable. She told Dan no. She could have been more direct and forceful, but she was worried that doing so would have caused a backlash that would hurt her game. Just like many people in many a work place are not as direct and forceful as they could be because they are worried about a backlash at work. Dan should have listened to all of the nos and read all of the walk ways and slap the hand away as a "don't touch me."

He didn't. His actions are on him.

[violet and green]

I feel like I hallucinated the whole double episode. Did Jamal go? Did I dream that? Did he stomp off without saying goodbye or anything, as someone in the tribal remarked, and then deliver a homily as his final address to camera? Normally this would be such fun, but I came to quite like Jamal this episode, and I was rooting for Kellee, and what an awful way to go with two freaking idols after her high chess move in the previous ep... I just feel exhausted and sullied from all the rest.

Go Janet! And Elaine. I still like Elaine. Everyone else, not so much.

Edited November 14, 2019 by violet and green
oops, wrong player's name

[princelina]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't think it has EVER been appropriate for men to put their paws on women they barely know or touch women in any way that was unwelcome.    

Older men who do this sort of thing are not "old fashioned", they are dirty, old men (and were probably once dirty, young men).   

I agree - the generational thing just means harassers were more able to get away with it.  Decent men of earlier generations were still keeping their hands to themselves; probably even more so.

It amuses me to picture all of the players last night in real time - preparing snacks, inviting friends and family over to watch, etc.  and then getting busted for their behavior on tv while they all watched!

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, violet and green said:

I feel like I hallucinated the whole double episode. Did Jamal go? Did I dream that? Did he stomp off without saying goodbye or anything, as someone in the tribal remarked, and then deliver a homily as his final address to camera? Normally this would be such fun, but I came to quite like Jamal this episode, and I was rooting for Kellee, and what an awful way to go with two freaking idols after her high chess move in the previous ep... I just feel exhausted and sullied from all the rest.

Go Janet! And Lauren. I still like Lauren. Everyone else, not so much.

Lauren was in on Elizabeth lying about be sexually harassed and Missy lying about NOT being sexually harassed, so I can't stand her either.   

I never liked Karishma or Noura much, but their hands are clean in this, and of course Janet can hold her head high for standing up for the other women against Feely Dan.   Elaine Tommy and Dean all voted for Kellee, but it isn't clear if they had any involvement in the ugliness.  Elaine  (who I liked a lot before this) seemed to play some role.  

[violet and green]

So. Much. Gaslighting.

I feel quite ill.

[Jel]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Thank you!  When does it become "sexual touching"?  You have to touch a woman's breasts or vagina??  NO!  Unwanted touching by men to women is sexual!   Let's not sugarcoat it, dismiss it, pretend it's something that it's not.

He's only doing it to women, people!   It's sexual!  Do people really go around touching other people's feet and hair and you all find this okay?  I'm honestly… shocked.  

I never saw it WAS.  I said that you can't know it's NOT.  There is a difference.

There is a large percentage of communication between people that is non-verbal. This is fact, and not at all controversial.

He wasn't touching her sexy bits, true, but if she felt icked out enough to tell him to stop it, then that (this is more than a high five/more than a dad hug)  non-verbal message was being relayed.  I think the non-verbal communication aspect doesn't get talked about enough. But it's similar to dudes about to get violent-- no words have to be spoken, no punches have to be thrown to understand that something is going to happen. 

I think most women have encountered a man like this who has a certain way of touching you that I would describe as somewhat proprietary -- if you're sitting a table he puts his hand on your wrist. If you're walking he puts his arm around your back, with the hand reaching a little too far and pulls you in. A hand on the shoulder slides a little. None of that is overly sexual touching, but you do get the message when it's happening to you.  If you are not into it, the feeling is best descried as eww.

[Drogo]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Why would finding Dan "Creepy" or "repulsive" be about anything besides the fact that he touches them constantly and in a sexual manner?

Because Dan is creepy. The touching is too much, and even without knowing that tidbit he just looks and sounds like a creepy girls basketball coach or sleazy L&O defense attorney.  Even I would feel differently about sleeping next to Dan than I would sleeping next to say Dean.

It occurs to me that some of my comments are being read as defending Dan, and that's not where I'm at. I think he's repulsive and I would've liked to see him out of the game when the opportunity presented itself with the producers and/or through the vote. 

1 hour ago, seacliffsal said:

I'm not a producer apologist, but I can understand not taking Dan out without survivors (even just one) asking them to do so.

Same. And I do think they were hoping someone would say off-camera "I am uncomfortable 4REAL and want you to step in" so they'd be able to show just cause for his removal,  in case of a lawsuit.  (In a work environment, it would be like H.R. firing Employee A for harassment because they overheard Employee B complaining about A on the phone to a friend.. but never getting a formal statement from the complainant.)  

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, seacliffsal said:

I'm not a producer apologist, but I can understand not taking Dan out without survivors (even just one) asking them to do so.  We saw that Elizabeth said she would use stories about Dan however it best worked for her, and production may need verification that what people say is actually how they feel/believe-not part of a story line or strategy they are creating for themselves.  

I get that.  I don't think the producers should have removed him without people saying they were so uncomfortable that they couldn't stand to have him in the game anymore.  I feel like at least the producers did their due diligence and talked to everyone individually and then talked to everyone as a group and then apparently talked to Dan individually.  At least they talked to everyone.  

But where I think they failed is that Dan doesn't seem to have gotten the message at all.  Either he's playing stupid or he's just playing the victim.  His whole "jiggawhat?!?!?!?  That whole conversation about boundaries was about ME?!?!?!?!  How is that even possible, I am the nicest guy!" was just reprehensible.  He had supposedly been issued a warning already.  How can he sit there and pretend like he had no idea that people had an issue with his touching?  

Just absolutely disgusting.  I really hope that after this tribal, that production pulled him aside again and said "we already warned you, so don't pretend like you didn't have any idea".

[Jel]

Maybe Kellee is just a better person than Dan and didn't take the opportunity to have him ousted from the game because she didn't think that was fair or she didn't want to be the one person (who already felt somewhat victimized) to have to deal with the potential fallout?

As for production, I'm seriously lukewarm on their alleged MeToo "wokeness".

She told him to stop and he didn't. They knew that because filming.

They saw he was doing it because they filmed it (I remember seeing a scene last week with his hand on a woman's thigh and I though, who's that, a showmance?)

They had to review the footage to make the episodes, so they were aware. 

But only when Kellee started to cry did they decide to even ask about it? Come on, now.

[Nashville]

Playing catch-up here, so excuse - but I read through 6 pages of y’all’s shit, so by god you can read through mine.  😄

Before I start commenting on other’s posts, though - a brickbat of my own:

• Aaron - just do us all a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP.  You’re an ignorant ass who can’t help but butt-trumpet your ignorance all over TC, all for the sake of some screentime.  So y’all will please understand if any future Aaron references I make will be ascribed to Boi - Both because (a) as I stated earlier he is a ButtTrumpet Of Ignorance, and (b) muscles and beard notwithstanding, he hasn’t demonstrated enough maturity to be considered a grown-ass man.

* And yes I heard his apology, and yes I believe it was genuine - months after the fact.

Quote

Missy and Elizabeth are a joke.  I lost respect for them tonight.  It disgusts me when they keep saying they separating an extremely serious issue with the game.  They were totally crying about Dan making them feel uncomfortable, then say it was meant as a joke, and then throw Janet under the bus?  Janet is a queen.  I already loved the woman, but she is one of the best.  Check SM girl, you are still loved and not the scourge of the Earth.  Missy and Elizabeth on the other hand might want to stay off SM for awhile.  

Missy is a spineless coward, while Elizabeth is a soulless coward.  Each person here can decide for themselves which is worse. 

20 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

I was so excited for a minute thinking he was about to talk his pervy ass out of the game when Jeff snapped back at him that he would always bring up this issue. Because till that point, Dan was up there trying to act like he was some victim being attacked by Jeff. And it's all this that makes me know that "apology" of his was bullshit. 

Dan made that crystal clear himself, immediately after the Kellee vote.  Dan was all apologies and “I’m so sorry” at TC when he knew he was mic’ed up and going on the broadcast record - but when Kellee took her torch up to Jeff...?  

Dan’s nasty (no other way to put it) snarl of “Yeah, PUT that torch down” made it perfectly clear - to me, anyway - that his entire earlier parade of innocent and/or misunderstood contriteness was an act, pure and simple; at that moment, his vindictiveness towards Kellee shine through like the Bat Signal through bullshit.

Quote

The red flags were waving HIGH for me when he came with the "if I happened to brush past you, happened to accidentally touch you, etc." Classic gaslighting and excuses by someone like him. "What, me, I just accidentally brushed by you. I am shocked, shocked I tell you that anyone would feel uncomfortable by me".

https://youtu.be/HMIyDf3gBoY

20 hours ago, LanceM said:

Jeff Probst addresses tonights episode.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/11/13/survivor-jeff-probst-island-of-the-idols-epsiode-kellee-dan/

<snip>

On the other side of this story is Dan. One on hand, it’s very clear that Dan’s touching was making some of the women uncomfortable, and we saw many of those moments on camera. There is no denying that it happened. But as Missy and Elizabeth embellished their stories about the situation, it put Dan in an unfair light and further complicated everything. Now the story has taken on a life of its own with several conflicting perspectives.

Jiffy, Jiffy, Jiffy... you were doing SO good right up to this point, then you made that hard right into FuckUpLand.

• Did you have multiple reports/indtances of inappropriate behavior on the part of Dan?  Answer: Yes.
• Did specific individuals cite specific cases when Dan made them feel uncomfortable, in a sexually inappropriate way? Answer: Yes.
• Did Dan initiate repeated instances of inappropriate contact with these individuals, even after being asked to stop?  Answer: Yes.
• Does Production have a video record which corroborates  the reports of inappropriate contact?  Answer: Yes.

So yeah - at this point, Dan’s behavior has already risen to the level of sexual harassment.  In any other setting Dan would be sitting down for a talk with HR right now, and better than even odds a security guard would be packing up his desk while they chat.  But instead of stating that plain and simple, Peachy, you seem inclined to view Missy’s and Elizabeth’s “embellishments” as somehow changing the tale of the tape - or, in this case, the video - as some sort of counterbalance to the statements made by Kellee, which are corroborated by your own crew’s recordings.  

So what exactly is the “complication” here Peachy?  Not that Dan is guilty of sexual harassment - which he is on the basis of his interactions with Kellee alone - but HOW guilty is he?  Are you trying to argue varying degrees of guilt?

Sorry, Jiffy Pop - but on this’un, you done popped off wrong.

10 hours ago, Haleth said:

It's going to be very awkward at Ponderosa when [Dan] gets voted out.

Or Elizabeth - or Missy - or Aaron - or Janet.  And I can’t fucking wait.

8 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Damn, Kellee!!  Two idols!  How long did you want to hold onto them for?  Damn!  I wish she would have played one.

Given Kellee’s FMG speech, she obviously was simply blindsided.  Darn.  And here I was hoping she’d made a conscious decision along the lines of, “Well, I’m 100% certain to get voted out anyway - if not this TC, then the next - and two genuine Survivor idols are worth twice as much on eBay as one, so....”

5 hours ago, amazingracefan said:

We never see everything, it's always the edit. 

But wasn’t what we did see conclusive enough?  There may have been other instances we didn’t see, true - but how does that translate into, “Well, then, guess I can just ignore what WAS shown....”?

Edited November 15, 2019 by Nashville
Formatting

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, Lamima said:

I agree with you. But to call him a predator or pervert as if we KNOW he was doing it as a sexual advance. I just don't think he was. 

I think anyone can call him a predator or a pervert if they want to.  This isn't a court of law.  And even if it was, those words are allowed. And why would we need proof he saw it that way to call him that?  I don't agree.

[CloudySky]

That moment when Karishma and Noura become part of my top 3.

[DEL901]

15 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Dan made that crystal clear himself, immediately after the Kellee vote.  Dan was all apologies and “I’m so sorry” at TC when he knew he was mic’ed up and going on the broadcast record - but when Kellee took her torch up to Jeff...?  

Dan’s nasty (no other way to put it) snarl of “Yeah, PUT that torch down” made it perfectly clear - to me, anyway - that his entire earlier parade of innocent and/or misunderstood contriteness was an act, pure and simple; at that moment, his vindictiveness towards Kellee shine through like the Bat Signal through bullshit.

This is Exactly what I came to write.   At that moment the real Dan shone through and it was really, really ugly.   The faux affable guise of misunderstood husband and father fell away and he showed who he really is.  

[seacliffsal]

1 minute ago, CloudySky said:

That moment when Karishma and Noura become part of my top 3.

It's a bit mind boggling how quickly they made my top 3!  With, of course, Janet in the number 1 place...

[Lantern7]

*siiiiiggggggghhhh*

I just want to thank the cast and crew of Survivor: Island of the Idols for making a two-hour episode neccesary. Because of that, I wound up making the decision to DVR the second hour and watch The Challenge "live." And you know something? I made the right call, because those people did something I thought could never be done on Survivor: make The Challenge look less grimy by comparison.

The biggest winner after this episode is Jeff Probst. He probably went to sleep that night with a two-foot boner. Sure, excuses were made and Janet contemplated leaving the game as she tried to wipe away the tire marks from where the bus rolled over her again and again . . . but who cares? Survivor is relevant now! People will be talking about the series again! Fuck, this season's Reunion might start at 9:30, giving Probst the proper amount time to inflict the gravitas on this series upon the viewing audience. And that will be a helluva lead-in for next season, even if no one will be as despicable as this lot.

We're not going to get any measure of a happy ending. Janet isn't going to win because the game would be made tougher for an older woman due to Probst's alpha dude fixation. At no point will Rob and/or Sandra storm from their hidden seats to lay waste upon fools. As much shit as I give Rob, I can see him being genuinely offended enough to defend someone's honor and not be a transparent prick . . . but that ain't gonna happen. If Sandra gets angry, ten interns will tackle her so she doesn't "make a scene." Whomever wins this season will probably be covered with enough shit to make Chris look like a better winner by comparison.

In other news, Kellee got voted out with two idols. By the laws of Survivor, she might be the bride of James Clement. Jamal gets rooked by the dumbest IOTI twist yet, waxes eloquent at the second TC . . . and his ass gets voted out. For this episode and this season? Seems about right.

Seriously, Probst is probably getting wood about this now. People on the street will be telling him how fixated they are on the show! PEOPLE ON THE STREET!!!

By the way, is Elaine on any shit list? I dunno . . . I still want to root for the busted can of biscuits.

ETA: To clarify: I made the choice to DVR the second hour BEFORE watching the first. I didn't change my mind and the channel after the events from the first hour.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Lantern7

[LadyChatts]

I just hope next season, it's more like David vs Goliath.  What a fun season that was.  Great characters, great game play, not a ton of stupid twists and advantages.  I want to have a Christian standing in an endurance challenge against a meat head like Aaron and psych him out by talking about plant root and singing 'Hips Don't Lie' (I still feel cheated we didn't see that footage).

I'm understanding less and less the point of IOTI.  It totally screwed Jamal over last night, and it seems like everyone who goes and comes back is accused of having an idol or advantage.  

Edited November 15, 2019 by LadyChatts

[HurricaneVal]

Oh man.  This has been a great discussion.  An important discussion.

Last week--was it last week?--they showed Feely Dan kind of grinding on a woman in the middle of the night.  Not only did he put his arm around her, he kind of ground his crotch into their rear end.  THAT was for sure sexual.  I watched that, wondering in the anonymity of the night vision footage, who the new showmance was.  Turned out it was Dan, and I think Elizabeth.  Whoever it was (still not sure) made an amusing little story about it around the fire the next morning--with Dan notably absent--whereupon there commenced a "humorous" bit of all the girls miming how Dan grabs and touches on them, even demonstrating some of his finer moves on they guys hanging out with them.  Some of that miming included grabbing boobs or rubbing on the person.  Everyone involved in that scene at least knows that Dan is a handsy guy, even though it was played for humor.  

I think what we saw last night clearly shows that it is not funny.  I hope Peachy keeps coming hard at Dan.  Dan's performance of "What?!?  Who?!?  ME!!??!!  Naaaah, I'm just a misunderstood happy-go-lucky guy...." at Tribal Council was awful.  The fact that he actually used his demonstration of how "harmless" he was as an excuse to fondle Noura in front of everyone was completely brazen, and probably gave him a really secret thrill inside.  "See?  I can't be a pervert, I can do this in front of you, and nobody cares!"  The whole thing, start to finish, made me shudder. 

There is very little I can add to this, except to wonder who is willing to sleep next to Dan now. 

[neece26]

Just like removal for physical violence, it seems like removal for inappropriate touching should be a no brainer as one of the ground rules for contestants to participate on this show.   Production saw what Dan was up to and they continued to allow it and film it. 

There have been comments in the past by contestants who were creeped out by other players but nothing as emotional as this.  People have been huddling and cuddling together on this show from day one.  The main difference is Kellee did not want any part of it.  

[LanceM]

7 hours ago, Lamima said:

I think Janet, in so many words, was saying that Dan was 'that way' (meaning feely) and that it didn't bother her and she didn't take it as inappropriate but she 'believed' the other gals did take it that way. She was validating their feelings. But she didn't feel the same.

So...if you watch the Ponderosas from Kellee and Jamal it is pretty interesting and has me side eyeing this whole thing. Kellee says to Jack that 'Dan flipped sides'. So was SHE bringing up her feelings on feely Dan to Missy in hopes to sway a vote for him? Since that side had the numbers and she would have been, rightly so, worried they'd vote her. And did Missy and Elizabeth play that up so as to keep Kellee in the dark that they were voting her (which worked as Kellee didn't even play an idol)? Like they were like 'OMG, I know the dude makes us uncomfortable too so we'll all vote him out'. The scene with Dan and Kellee on the beach and him touching her hair...I have to go back a rewatch because that looked like from way back (from the time she confronted Dan about the touching early on). Was the show making that look like it was a new touching- like Dan ignored Kellee's wishes to stop? I hope not. I have to go back and rewatch the early epi and last night's epi. If Dan kept touching and ignored the gals when they asked him to stop then the show should have IMMEDIATELY booted him....right then and there. But they didn't. They can't be that shitty, can they (the show)?

And, also, Kellee said to Jamal and Jack at Ponderosa that she initially wanted to vote out Dean but then had that expiring idol and devised that plan. They told her it blew up their games (all 3 of them). And she did it just to make a big cool move. Not because she wanted to keep, and work with, Dean over Jack. Like, wow! 

Kellee was planning on blindsiding MIssy. She was planning on keeping Dan around. It was Jamal who led the charge to get rid of Dana and he did it because of self preservation because Dan had targeted him previously. Missy and Elizabeth might have went along to voting out Dan until Lauren told them that Kellee was trying to vote out Missy

[Vikitty]

Missy and Elizabeth just tweeted statements within minutes of one another.

[Ms Blue Jay]

That's……….. interesting.

I'll say the Aaron apology felt REALLY genuine.  It came out of nowhere, really fast, was very emotional and seemed very real.

And now this?  LOL.  I kind of…. LOL.  feel a little differently about these ones.  Did they suddenly feel stupid because of Aaron?

Anyways, I'm glad that Kellee is getting this vindication.  And any viewer who is totally creeped out by Dan's behaviour and the show enabling it.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[TVbitch]

I am interested to hear Sandra's perspective. 

[watchingtvaddict]

35 minutes ago, Valerie said:

Missy and Elizabeth just tweeted statements within minutes of one another.

I feel like these apologies are meaningless if they don't go with an action.

Maybe  donate their winnings to women's group/shelter/cause if they're Top 3. Or a nominal donation if they don't win. And I don't buy the "I didn't have the full picture" excuse. They're rewording the Jeff press release from earlier. 

They decided to play up their discomfort, they knew they were creating a false narrative. They had all the information to carry out their plan. Get Janet to "protect them" so they could vote out Kellee. Maybe if they had gone with the plan of voting off Dan because they knew some women were uncomfortable but they weren't and they chose to pretend they were things would go differently. But to blindside Kellee and Janet and then cast them as manipulators was really despicable.

[LanceM]

10 minutes ago, watchingtvaddict said:

I feel like these apologies are meaningless if they don't go with an action.

Maybe  donate their winnings to women's group/shelter/cause if they're Top 3. Or a nominal donation if they don't win. And I don't buy the "I didn't have the full picture" excuse. They're rewording the Jeff press release from earlier. 

They decided to play up their discomfort, they knew they were creating a false narrative. They had all the information to carry out their plan. Get Janet to "protect them" so they could vote out Kellee. Maybe if they had gone with the plan of voting off Dan because they knew some women were uncomfortable but they weren't and they chose to pretend they were things would go differently. But to blindside Kellee and Janet and then cast them as manipulators was really despicable.

Kellee was planning on blindsiding Missy as Lauren told them. The plan eventually did change (not because of Kellee btw) to Dan but why should they believe that? 

[watchingtvaddict]

1 hour ago, LanceM said:

Kellee was planning on blindsiding Missy as Lauren told them. The plan eventually did change (not because of Kellee btw) to Dan but why should they believe that? 

Right I don't blame their behavior in the first episode. But, their behaviour in the second episode. Where they gaslit Janet and made her seem like a crazy person for believing the women and voting for her friend. They should have apologised to Janet and told her the truth. Instead they denied their actions and said Janet misunderstood the situation. 

You don't cry wolf and then make the people who came to your aid feel guilty about helping you out. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by watchingtvaddict
Changed OUT to FOR as Dan wasn't vote out Kellee was

[LadyChatts]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

That's……….. interesting.

I'll say the Aaron apology felt REALLY genuine.  It came out of nowhere, really fast, was very emotional and seemed very real.

And now this?  LOL.  I kind of…. LOL.  feel a little differently about these ones.  Did they suddenly feel stupid because of Aaron?

Anyways, I'm glad that Kellee is getting this vindication.  And any viewer who is totally creeped out by Dan's behaviour and the show enabling it.

I don't know if I've seen a contestant go from that loved to that disliked in a two hour period.  Missy was a big favorite of many.  Not thinking that's the case anymore.

And putting the Kellee issue aside, her treatment of Janet was just as bad.  Janet was on the beach in the morning after the Kellee vote, and made some comment about no one knowing where she slept that night.  Aaron and Missy walked by her, and barely acknowledged her.  The three of them (Missy, Aaron, Elizabeth) were way too focused on the game, making moves, and gaining whatever advantage no matter what it took to get them ahead.  They've proven that numerous times throughout the game.  At this point they never stopped to think and look at this from a non game play perspective.  I still think of Elizabeth last night, after Janet told her she was voting Dan, and Elizabeth had a TH claiming it was smoke and mirrors (because apparently she's so smart to see through people).  But hey, hopefully it was worth all of that to get Dan on their side for a number advantage.  And for argument's sake, I see Elizabeth address this in her apology about using Dan or any man for a stepping stone in the game.  So let's pretend the accusations against Dan weren't true, and Kellee was lying.  So Elizabeth would have still done something despicable by using false information and a serious issue to further her game.  Of course, Kellee wasn't lying and Dan's a creep, so it makes it even worse.  I'm really curious how it will be going forward.    

And of course, they know this isn't over, and will be addressed at the finale and in their exit interviews.  I'm just shocked Aaron was the first one to apologize.

Edited November 15, 2019 by LadyChatts

[Sarahsmile416]

I saw those “apologies”...and I don’t believe that they are sorry because they truly believe they did something wrong, they’re sorry because they’re getting lambasted (as they should) and they want to feel better about themselves.  
 

I saw someone remark that Kellee’s body language appeared as if she “liked” what Dan did.  Do you know how problematic this concept is? It honestly makes me sick that there are people who think that way.  By that argument, rape victims who get aroused during the act are not actually victims because look, they “liked it”.

Fuck that. 

[Cthulhudrew]

I'm probably just being cynical, but Missy and Elizabeth's apology statements sound awfully similar to the "tunnel vision/gameplay" company line that Jeff spouted at Tribal and in that interview. Like almost verbatim.

Aaron's at least felt like a heartfelt mea culpa (though he did end it a bit defensively).

Edited November 15, 2019 by Cthulhudrew

[Jillibean]

Both apologies allude to the fact that they “didn’t have all the information.” What other information, exactly, do they believe they needed to not take advantage of the fact that Kellee clearly genuinely felt uncomfortable with Dan’s actions, as she told Missy herself? I give Aaron credit for not bothering with those types of excuses or justifications. He’s the only one of the three who I believe is genuinely sorry for his actions, rather than just realizing the internet is displeased and needs some assuaging. 

The way Dan kept heavily sighing and pouting that Jeff wouldn’t just “let it go”? Made me think, more than anything, that this is not the first time this has happened. It’s hard to explain, exactly, but I feel like it’s not dissimilar to burning down a house and then wondering why people won’t just “let it go.” If he truly were innocent, I think he’d have more understanding that what he’s being accused of is a big deal, so of course no one is going to let it go. Instead, his instinct is to complain that people want to make this a big deal. “Well fine, if you’re going to be MEAN about it, here is my list of cliche excuses about being a nice person and having met several women in life previously. Man, why is everyone so MEAN to me?” 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Jillibean

[Cthulhudrew]

5 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

So after Kelly had a long talk with Dan at the beginning of the game saying "I do not like to be touched", you think that Dan had implicit permission to continue to touch Kellee every single day and that the burden was on Kellee to repeat that she didn't like it?

Suffice it to say I 100% disagree.  I agree with the poster a few pages ago who said just assume everyone DOES NOT WANT you to touch them, and live life that way.

I wish I could give this 1,000 likes.

[LanceM]

1 minute ago, Jillibean said:

Both apologies allude to the fact that they “didn’t have all the information.” What other information, exactly, do they believe they needed to not take advantage of the fact that Kellee clearly genuinely felt uncomfortable with Dan’s actions, as she told Missy herself? I give Aaron credit for not bothering with those types of excuses of justifications. He’s the only one of the three who I believe is genuinely sorry for his actions, rather than just realizing the internet is displeased and needs some assuaging. 

The way Dan kept heavily sighing and pouting that Jeff wouldn’t just “let it go”? Made me think, more than anything, that this is not the first time this has happened. It’s hard to explain, exactly, but I feel like it’s not dissimilar to burning down a house and then wondering why people won’t just “let it go.” If he truly were innocent, I think he’d have more understanding that what he’s being accused of is a big deal, so of course no one is going to let it go. Instead, his instinct is to complain that people want to make this a big deal. “Well fine, if you’re going to be MEAN about it, here is my list of cliche excuses about being a nice person and having met several women in life previously. Man, why is everyone so MEAN to me?” 

Again. Kellee was planning on blindsiding Missy. After this conversation was over Lauren informed her that Kellee was planning on voting her out.  What you believe that the person you just talked to for two hours was being sincere when all that time she was planning on voting you out? 

[pennben]

I do wonder if the reaction to the apologies would be different if Aaron’s was just the printed word v video. Substantively, they really weren’t that different, Aaron’s just had visuals with him crying. 

[North of Eden]

Honestly this episode was so volatile and explosive I don't even dare dive into all the commentary I would like to make on it.

I'll just say this....there was so much ugliness and heinous behavior on so many different peoples parts for so many different reasons that the whole thing passed from being entertainment to the point that during the after tribal segment with Janet I actually forgot I was watching a show about competitions.

Please CBS can  you just give us back a show about people trying to stay in the game by winning gross food challenges or starving on a bag of rice because if anything this episode highlighted that we need to get back to the basics...even Boston Rob didn't even feel like playing his role as Greek Chorus and looked uncomfortable.

We need to leave all this real world stuff out of the show go back to the SURVIVOR that the late Rudy made famous.

Edited November 15, 2019 by North of Eden

[ProfCrash]

Missy could believe that Kellee was targeting her. That has nothing to do with lying when Janet point blank asked Missy about what Missy said. Or when Missy encouraged Elisabeth to lie to Janet. Missy knew damn well that Kellee was not lying about  her feelings toward Dan. 

[deirdra]

7 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I do believe Dan gets some sort of sexual gratification or thrill out of pawing these young women.  

He certainly looked like he got a thrill out of pawing Noura's shoulders and biceps to illustrate in TC how one might touch someone while climbing over them.  He was not illustrating "inadvertent" "brushing", he was grabbing her and smiling with a twinkle in his eyes.  I've done a lot of camping in the last 45 years, with friends, lovers and acquaintances, depending on the trip, but in the middle of the night when everyone is sleeping, I go out of my way NOT to touch/wake them.

Edited November 15, 2019 by deirdra

[cherbitrary]

On 11/13/2019 at 10:15 PM, Maggie Mae said:

I can't even with this episode!! Missy and Elizabeth are awful! What liars as well. We all saw them complaining about Dan...and we saw Dan being creepy...and we saw Kelley have a 2 hour convo with Missy about Dan's creepiness! These 2 make women coming forward more difficult. Janet you rock. Aaron, shut the fuck up. Jamal, you can be a jerk and awesome (like tonight) and I wished you'd stayed. Noura, you be you. Lauren, you are right behind Missy and Elizabeth in my disgust. Dean, you are a weasel. Go Janet, take this thing!!!

Yes. Yes. Yes.

What a difference a week makes! This week totally flipped my allegiances. Dean fell several notches when he turned on Kellee...not even a heads up for her AND he voted against her.  And what I thought was a great move by Kellee last week, blew up in her face.  And then you have all the Dan stuff. It is despicable to use that kind of thing for game play...and then trying to put all the blame on Janet as if she just misconstrued their statements (or lying that they didn't talk to her). So, now I hate pretty much all of them except Janet. Amusingly Dean goes back up a few notches for seemingly not really being involved in it.  Handsy Dan-sy needs to go. Elizabeth and Missy need to go. Don't get me started on Tommy and Lauren.  Wonder if Janet is re-thinking turning down the opportunity to win that advantage now.

So - did Jamal's losing his vote matter in the outcome? Would he have voted Karishma and ended up with a tie?

[cherbitrary]

On 11/13/2019 at 10:37 PM, Midori Ya said:

Also, if Dan was pulled aside and given a warning presumably early on (b/c that's when they showed the producers notes) why was he so surprised that some of the women were complaining about his behavior? Why was he so surprised that Janet would have been reacting from that viewpoint; why did he accuse Janet of cynically trying to make up the whole situation?

I was wondering about that during TC, too.  Wish Jeff had mentioned it. Did the note say whether Dan was told there were complaints or is it possible he just thought everyone was getting the same talk? I read it, but I don't remember the wording.

[watchingtvaddict]

2 minutes ago, cherbitrary said:

I was wondering about that during TC, too.  Wish Jeff had mentioned it. Did the note say whether Dan was told there were complaints or is it possible he just thought everyone was getting the same talk? I read it, but I don't remember the wording.

The notes said Dan was given a warning. So, one would assume there he realised he was behaving inappropriately. 

I'm guessing in his head (after the women assured him they didn't have an issue with him) he assumed only Kellee had a problem with him. And his behaviour didn't have to be addressed anymore because the one person who was uncomfortable was gone. 

[pennben]

Look at Dans actions at night after tribal. It escalated after Janet stood firm. He continued castigating her, literally shook his finger at her, trying to keep her isolated from going back to others to confront. He knew he was caught, until Elizabeth let him of the hook. Then he thought Jeff caught him again and he was angry at tribal.

Let us not forget he is the root problem here. Theres a whole mess of awful here. Beyond him, it begins at the beginning with Probst & his production deciding “HR” meant “Her Responsibility” to fix this.

Edited November 15, 2019 by pennben

[LadyChatts]

2 hours ago, watchingtvaddict said:

The notes said Dan was given a warning. So, one would assume there he realised he was behaving inappropriately. 

I'm guessing in his head (after the women assured him they didn't have an issue with him) he assumed only Kellee had a problem with him. And his behaviour didn't have to be addressed anymore because the one person who was uncomfortable was gone. 

I’ve been wondering if this is the case.  I was surprised at his tone when Kellee took her torch up to Jeff.  To my knowledge, she wasn’t even leading the charge to vote Dan off at first.    It seemed like he had some anger at her, although maybe it’s just because she dared vote for him.  
 

But the fact that he still seemed like there wasn’t a problem after TC, and didn’t seem to understand why Jeff wouldn’t let it go, says a lot.  I’m very curious just what exactly this talk was production had with everyone.  Whatever it was Dan clearly didn’t feel like there was a problem, and your right that the defense he got from some of the castaways probably just made him feel justified in feeling like he wasn’t in the wrong.  

[amazingracefan]

I'm still uncomfortable with people talking like Kellee was raped.  Obviously there was some kind of antagonism between them, we don't know exactly how that was perceived because it simply wasn't explained except from one side.  I watch reality shows for entertainment and the side I don't like is when the reaction gets like this.  I'm finished with discussion on this topic, at the very least until we actually hear some new information rather than contestants just feeling the pressure and saying what people want out of fear.

Edited November 15, 2019 by amazingracefan

[Ms Blue Jay]

5 hours ago, pennben said:

I do wonder if the reaction to the apologies would be different if Aaron’s was just the printed word v video. Substantively, they really weren’t that different, Aaron’s just had visuals with him crying. 

He did have genuine emotion to show in those videos, which made them really effective.

We could go back to "old Survivor" if the producers would have enough integrity to kick out people who are acting physically towards other castmates and making them uncomfortable.  They kicked out Brandon Hatch -- well the actions by Dan or Richard Hatch or whatever happened to Ghandia (I never watched that season) should be looked at as just as serious.

5 hours ago, deirdra said:

He certainly looked like he got a thrill out of pawing Noura's shoulders and biceps to illustrate in TC how one might touch someone while climbing over them.  He was not illustrating "inadvertent" "brushing", he was grabbing her and smiling with a twinkle in his eyes.  I've done a lot of camping in the last 45 years, with friends, lovers and acquaintances, depending on the trip, but in the middle of the night when everyone is sleeping, I go out of my way NOT to touch/wake them.

Noura's uncomfortable and/or shocked laugh, I felt horrible watching that.  Everyone is just sitting there and nobody stops him.  Women are objects to this man.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, pennben said:

Let us not forget he is the root problem here. Theres a whole mess of awful here. Beyond him, it begins at the beginning with Probst & his production deciding “HR” meant “Her Responsibility” to fix this.

Wow.  You nailed it.

[Bryce Lynch]

11 hours ago, DEL901 said:

This is Exactly what I came to write.   At that moment the real Dan shone through and it was really, really ugly.   The faux affable guise of misunderstood husband and father fell away and he showed who he really is.  

I agree.  For me, that cemented Dan as a soulless, vindictive, unapologetic, serial abuser.

I never bought his "misunderstood, friendly guy" crap.  But, the torch snuffing moment outed him as malevolent and left zero room for the idea that he might just be clueless about how his touching is received by his victims.

In his mind, women's bodies are his to touch as he pleases, and any woman who dares object is a "bitch".  

And Missy and Elizabeth gaslighted Janet, slandered her and threw her under the bus to protect this monster.

[himela]

If the show wanted to present this serious matter with the seriousness it needs, they would have shown the producers' talk with Dan, Kellee, Missy and Elisabeth. In this talk we would have seen and heard what truly happened, if things were exaggerated or downplayed, whether Dan understood what he was doing, whether Missy and Elisabeth used this as gameplay etc. The show doesn't give us these talks though because they want what is happening now: everyone speculating, presenting their own personal opinions, contradicted thoughts etc. They just want numbers = money. They don't want to RESOLVE the issue. This is my opinion. And it's not the usual talk of "why did this and this vote this way?", like game related speculation. If you want your audience to take you seriously, then provide us with all the proof and make things crystal clear. It doesn't make sense that producers gave Dan a warning but three days later he is surprised that this story is about him. Something is not right.