S02.E02: Tell Tale Hearts

[scrb]

13 hours ago, iMonrey said:

For me it's the eyes. Once an actress has her eyes done they never look the same. I understand the motivation in Hollywood, and assume these actresses are going to the top professionals in their field. But two women can go to the same doctor and have the exact same procedure done, and one will come out looking great, and the other will look horrible. It just depends on the individual's face. I don't think I'd take the risk. Sometimes you have to accept the fact that a particular career choice has a shelf life. Athletes do.

After what happened to Meg Ryan, I would think actresses would be scared of having a lot of facial work done.

OTOH, maybe they didn't think they'd continue to get work unless they did it.

[Razzberry]

I thought Celeste's therapist was good up until now, but perhaps I was wrong.  Celeste is still incredibly passive when she isn't in a violent rage, having nightmares, or drifting off the road..   Dating, really?  This was ludicrous advice and made me laugh, so maybe it was meant to be dark comedy?  When I think of the pool of prospective mates  Monterey has to offer it becomes even funnier.

Bonnie's relationship with her mother is so toxic that it makes Nathan look good by comparison, which probably wasn't lost on him.   His moving victim impact statement about the fragility of marriage was so good that apparently Bonnie forgot it was Nathan who suddenly left his first family and never looked back.

Ed finally has to confront Madeline's affair head on.  He could have quietly withdrawn from the doorway and avoided the mess, but he stepped in it now and must deal, which he does by focusing on his wife's girlfriends issues and the parentage of his daughter's classmate.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Razzberry

[Cheezwiz]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

After what happened to Meg Ryan, I would think actresses would be scared of having a lot of facial work done.

OTOH, maybe they didn't think they'd continue to get work unless they did it.

It's tricky business for an actress - basically a no-win double-standard situation. They are constantly under threat of diminishing income simply for having the audacity to age, so I completely understand the temptation to want to look well-preserved. On the other hand, one wrong move can really mess up a person's face, and prevent them from doing what actors need to do, which is emote and display expression.

I honestly don't know what I'd do in that situation - I'd probably stick to much more minor  procedures such as surface treatments, and perhaps subtle tightening around the jaw-line. Anything more and you could be asking for trouble. I think actors tend to get addicted and carried away because they're surrounded by other actors who also have work done, and lose perspective on how freakish looking it can become.

I think Nicole looks lovely on camera and is believable as the mother of grade-schoolers, but lets face it, all of these ladies with the exception of Shailene, Zoe, (and possibly Reese), are at least a decade too old to have little ones in elementary school. IRL they would all have kids in college, or even Grad school. Because the actresses are all so phenomenal, I'm able to suspend disbelief and enjoy the show nonetheless!

[Armchair Critic]

I am loving Renata, Laura Dern rules!

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, Cheezwiz said:

It's tricky business for an actress - basically a no-win double-standard situation. They are constantly under threat of diminishing income simply for having the audacity to age, so I completely understand the temptation to want to look well-preserved. On the other hand, one wrong move can really mess up a person's face, and prevent them from doing what actors need to do, which is emote and display expression.

Very well put. They walk an impossible tightrope. 

For all my nitpicking (and don't get me started on the wigs!) I'm really enjoying this season in its own right. Next episode I'm going to work on turning off the tiny bad-surgery-and-wig critic in my brain and focus on how much fun this show is to watch. 

3 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Celeste is still incredibly passive when she isn't in a violent rage, having nightmares, or drifting off the road..

She could be the most messed up of all the women, despite her perfect exterior. It wouldn't be surprising if she traded one abusive personality (Perry) for another (Mary Louise). It probably feels right to her. 

[Anela]

I started watching this last night, and am finishing it now. I loved how, at the beginning, Mary Louise was being funny with Madeleine again, and Madeleine snarked back something about "short people problems" I think it was. LMAO. Then asked how *she* was the bully here. 

*edit. Nicole Kidman has always been gorgeous. I used to love her hair, too. 

Edited June 18, 2019 by Anela

[sashayshante]

17 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

fter what happened to Meg Ryan, I would think actresses would be scared of having a lot of facial work done. 

To be fair, the cosmetic work Ryan got was just the nail in the coffin. Her whole career was based on being the girl next door. As a result, her target market was women who didn't find her threatening. When her affair with Russell Crowe was revealed, her entire career went up in flames. Of course, Dennis Quaid was a cheating sleazebag throughout their marriage and nobody cared. His career didn't skip a beat.

The only problem I have with all the work Kidman has had done is that she's a spokesperson for Neutrogena. I mean, come on.

 

17 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

I think Nicole looks lovely on camera and is believable as the mother of grade-schoolers, but lets face it, all of these ladies with the exception of Shailene, Zoe, (and possibly Reese), are at least a decade too old to have little ones in elementary school

For me, it tracks. I totally see Renata being a woman who chose her career first and decided to have kids later in life. 

[mochamajesty]

On 6/16/2019 at 11:57 PM, jeansheridan said:

Could it be more that he is offended that Abigail knew the details? Like he knew something happened but so long as Maddie kept it buried, he didn't need to know. But since Abby knows, then who else might know? 

Yes, considering that he just found out about Perry and Ziggy here was one more thing that everyone know and he didn’t. 

23 hours ago, skotnikov said:

Or an old Hollywood grande dame, who thinks just her presence in a frame is a greatest gift to a humankind. Meryl Streep is so camp in this, it's really hard to watch. . 

13 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I think this true only to an extent. For example, a 60 year old isn't going to be cast for a character who is meant to be a 22 year old fresh out of college. But there is also a double standard for men and women. Men will often be cast in action movies well into old age and the leading ladies who are cast with them are often much much younger than they are. Sean Connery and Harrison Ford spring to mind. It's not like old people can't act or aren't needed to fill certain roles, it's just that younger women are often chosen over more age appropriate women but the same can't be said of men, at least not to the same extent. 

Liam Neeson comes to mind. He had a career revival in his 50s with the Taken series. How many women can say that?

I love the actress who plays Bonnie’s mom. But I wondered why they didn’t cast Lisa Bonet in the role. But if the character is going to play the mean drunk, that makes sense. Lisa would not be right for this role. 

Having grown up poor, I totally get where Renata is coming from. You will do anything to not go back there again.  I saw fear under all of that bluster. 

[Haleth]

3 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

I think Nicole looks lovely on camera and is believable as the mother of grade-schoolers, but lets face it, all of these ladies with the exception of Shailene, Zoe, (and possibly Reese), are at least a decade too old to have little ones in elementary school.

Didn't Celeste have problems conceiving?  It makes sense she'd be somewhat older.  Plus it also makes sense to me that she'd be constantly tweaking her appearance to look young and fresh for Perry, so the fact that Nicole has had work done works for the character.

Was Renata driving a Tesla?

[Crs97]

Regarding plastic surgery, I had a friend get some due to a medical issue.  I think her doctor warned her about possible addiction issues, and sure enough once he fixed the one area she said she started noticing every line and wrinkle.  She has stayed away from doing more, but I can totally see actresses doing just a little more here and then again just one more thing there until they look unreal, especially if a mistake is made that they have to have fixed.

How old is Reese’s Tennessee?  Nicole’s Faith?  I don’t think they are too far off in ages.

[CarpeFelis]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

.Was Renata driving a Tesla?

Yes, that was a Model S.

[RedInk]

43 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Didn't Celeste have problems conceiving?  It makes sense she'd be somewhat older.  Plus it also makes sense to me that she'd be constantly tweaking her appearance to look young and fresh for Perry, so the fact that Nicole has had work done works for the character.

Agree on this point. Kidman is 10 years older than Skarsgard, and I assume the fertility treatments were thrown in to indicate it's similar for the characters. He is a monster, but he is gorgeous, rich & young - toxic for someone who feels undeserving & less-than in almost every way. On a totally superficial note, I think she looks like a beautiful, wealthy, 50-year old woman with excellent work, so it all tracks with me. 

I know I'm alone in this nitpick, but I feel like the characterization of the kids is so bizarre. It's like the writers have never met 7-yo children. I have one, and I'm a teacher, and some of these kids (especially Chloe, not so much the twins) are ridiculously mature and precocious. Her self-awareness, little quips, the music IQ...it's a lot, and it would be a lot for someone twice her age. So that "salted" line kind of irritated me. Not because it wasn't terribly sad and innocent, but because it highlighted how world-weary they usually write her. 

[Chaos Theory]

3 hours ago, sashayshante said:

For me, it tracks. I totally see Renata being a woman who chose her career first and decided to have kids later in life. 

Plus isn’t the whole Celeste and Perry “love story” her being older then him and having trouble conceiving.  So I can also buy her being older.  

And we are talking about upper middle class white women and they tend to not even start to have children until they hit their thirties.  

Edited June 18, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[hoodooznoodooz]

I like the therapist, but these episodes take place how many months later? Five, six, eight? That is much too soon for Celeste to start dating. 

1) Her husband died unexpectedly.

2) She is the mother of two young boys. Her focus needs to be helping them and helping herself heal, not on a new romantic interest. 

3) She witnessed her husband dying. It was violent. 

[jeansheridan]

49 minutes ago, RedInk said:

have one, and I'm a teacher, and some of these kids (especially Chloe, not so much the twins) are ridiculously mature and precocious. Her self-awareness, little quips, the music IQ...it's a lot, and it would be a lot for someone twice her age.

She does look the most mature so I can fanwank her birthday kept her back 8 months (in California if your birthday is in December you get pushed back from starting kindergarten. I was always 6 to 7 months older than my peers which was an advantage for reading skills and not much else). 

I mean, Ziggy is pretty verbal too, but single mom talking to him all the time, that makes sense. I think Chloe has very talkative parents, a talkative big sister, and she picks up mannerisms. I think the actress sold her worry about mom being mad in the last scene. She looked quite timid and worried. I know they ended on a joke about the phone but mostly I think the actress nailed it. 

The other kids really are remarkably natural and I give props to their adult costars for making them comfortable enough to be natural.

Edited June 18, 2019 by jeansheridan

[Melina22]

16 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

The other kids really are remarkably natural and I give props to their adult costars for making them comfortable enough to be natural.

That's exactly how they act, natural and relaxed. Not stiff and smiley, like so many bad child actors. I really wonder how you get a young child to be like that? Is it just a talent they born with? The result of a gifted director? I'm curious. 

[MaggieG]

13 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

That's exactly how they act, natural and relaxed. Not stiff and smiley, like so many bad child actors. I really wonder how you get a young child to be like that? Is it just a talent they born with? The result of a gifted director? I'm curious. 

I think it might be a mix of the director and the actresses working with them. Those kids are lucky, they get to work with some talented women.

[Anela]

I thought Renata's reaction in the car, was perfect. He's lucky that she went back to pick him up. Blaming her for his getting into so much trouble. 

[Penman61]

1. Women's appearances are policed way, way too much, especially when compared how little men's are.
2. This is even more true of movie stars and other public figures.
3. Women actors are definitely in a bind since cosmetic surgery can feel necessary to maintain a career but can also both draw more of said policing AND reduce the effectiveness of one's instrument (the face). The bind then becomes a spiral because we police/critique obvious surgery, and then the actor feels like they need more surgery to stave off more critiquing...

All that said, it's very simple for me to see how Nicole's look (wealthily gorgeous and artificially curated) is perfect for her character, and now especially in contrast to Meryl's obvious lack of work; it literally illustrates the class/cultural gap between the two characters.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Penman61

[cardigirl]

Am I supposed to like these women?  I don't know.  I like Jane, I guess, and Bonnie seems okay, but the rest are kind of too wacko for me.  Not sure why I should keep watching, to be honest. 

I'm rather enjoying Mary Louise's takedowns of Madeline, though. Like she can see right through her. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Maddie, you better eat your Wheaties before you try to step to Mary Louise. She's had decades more practice at the reading and shading games. But geez, Mary Louise is pernicious. She always finds just the right spot to push the knife in and she enjoys doing it.

Renata shows up to court in a red suit? She better hope that isn't going to be a jury trial or she'll not only help lose the case she might make the penalties worse.

Okay, I'm gonna need to see a scene where Bonnie's mommy and Mary Louise go toe-to-toe. Neither of them are taking any prisoners and they both seem to think they're entitled to use their mouths as weapons.

Yeah, it looks like Perry targeted Celeste specifically because she already was somewhat isolated, at least as far as family is concerned. Classic abuser move.

IMO Celeste didn't have to tell her sons their daddy was an abusive, raping a$$hole but she didn't need to make it sound like he was a great guy who just had a bad day every once in a while either. Eventually they'll be old enough to find out the truth and they'll probably blame her.

[sashayshante]

I'm not a fan of Reese Witherspoon, so I'm biased when it comes to Madeline. While she and Renata are similar in demeanor and personalities, Renata comes across more self-aware. Her issues last season had less to do with her ego and more to do with protecting her daughter. Madeline is just a self-absorbed, competitive gossip.

What I really enjoy about Renata is that she's unapologetically assertive and abrasive aka she's written like a man without being a caricature. It's rare that a female character that messy still manages to be likeable.

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

The bind then becomes a spiral because we police/critique obvious surgery, and then the actor feels like they need more surgery to stave off more critiquing...

To add to it, we now watch them in HD. I remember the first time I looked at my face in one of those magnifying mirrors in a hotel room. I almost screamed. It was like a horror movie. I'll bet that's how actresses, and no doubt many actors, feel seeing themselves in HD, every flaw visible. 

This whole conversation is making me way more empathetic towards these people. Not going to lie, I'll still probably be hyperaware of unnatural faces, but I'll be more understanding. 

Bringing it back to the episode, the more I watch this show, the more I enjoy Reese. She's the best listener and reactor! When Mary Louise or Celeste talk to her, I find myself watching Madeline's face. I don't think I ever appreciated how good an actor she was till now. I like how she lets herself be petty and annoying, too. She'd probably bug me in real life, but watching her on the show makes me smile. 

[tennisgurl]

I cant tell sometimes if I actually like Meryl Streeps acting, or if I get too focused on her performing that it actually hurts the performance. Like, as familiar as I am with Nicole Kidman as an actress/celebrity, when I see her on the show I just see Celeste. So far when I see  Mary Louise, I see Meryl Streep, living legend of the silver screen. I can appreciate her performance, which I think is good, if pretty broad (especially as a lot of the performers on this show are pretty naturalistic), but it has yet to stop being a performance to me. Like she is thinking "I am Meryl Streep, Hollywood royalty, gracing television with my luminous presence."

I am quite interested in knowing about Mary Louise and what kind of environment would help to create a man like Perry. I suspect that maybe she had something to do with his brothers death, if she didnt fully cause it. Or maybe Perry killed his brother and she covered it up? She seems abusive and manipulative like Perry, just in a different way.  

Edited June 18, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Hpmec]

The newly hatched subplot of Gordon under arrest for financial shenanigans seems very out of the blue and contrived, serving no purpose other than to allow Renata to shamelessly emote. Laura Dern is entertaining, but come on.....

I'm on board with the theory that the Jane confession to Ziggy scene was cut short because really, how do you tell a young child he's the product of a rape? I think David E. Kelley must have really struggled with it and decided to leave it be. The scene could have been shot with the focus on Jane's face without the child actor present, so I'll stick with the aforementioned scenario. 

I love Meryl Streep. She always inhabits her characters so thoroughly that she gives them little mannerisms like fiddling with the necklace that other actors would never think of. She's chewing up the scenery and she's certainly earned the right. She keeps on working at almost 70 not only because of her acting chops but because she hasn't altered her face and is growing older gracefully. 

Nicole Kidman's character needs a new therapist. Dating so soon after Perry's demise and while she's coping with the twins and the mother-in-law is very poor advice.

Reese Witherspoon's younger daughter is written as the archetypal Hollywood brat -- the smartmouth witty beyond her years kid. She's annoying as hell. And who in hell gives a second grader her own smartphone anyway? David E. Kelley lives in a bubble. 

Oh, and I had my only child at 40 and was at least a decade older than most of the other moms, so for me these actresses having grade school kids seems normal, but that's just me.....

Edited June 18, 2019 by Hpmec

[izabella]

11 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

It's tricky business for an actress - basically a no-win double-standard situation. They are constantly under threat of diminishing income simply for having the audacity to age, so I completely understand the temptation to want to look well-preserved. On the other hand, one wrong move can really mess up a person's face, and prevent them from doing what actors need to do, which is emote and display expression.

I honestly don't know what I'd do in that situation - I'd probably stick to much more minor  procedures such as surface treatments, and perhaps subtle tightening around the jaw-line. Anything more and you could be asking for trouble. I think actors tend to get addicted and carried away because they're surrounded by other actors who also have work done, and lose perspective on how freakish looking it can become.

I think Nicole looks lovely on camera and is believable as the mother of grade-schoolers, but lets face it, all of these ladies with the exception of Shailene, Zoe, (and possibly Reese), are at least a decade too old to have little ones in elementary school. IRL they would all have kids in college, or even Grad school. Because the actresses are all so phenomenal, I'm able to suspend disbelief and enjoy the show nonetheless!

I also think it holds women back, actresses and viewers.  Why is it wrong to see a "normally aging" woman on tv?  Are we to be hidden away because our natural faces are too unsightly to be in movies and tv shows?  That's what has happened.  Instead of growing acceptance of aging women, like we have had for aging men since forever, we have gone in the other direction and made it even more unacceptable for actresses to show age.  Only young women, or women who look much younger than they are, are allowed.

My biggest issue still is that they can't emote when their faces are frozen with botox and fillers, or tight face lifts.  An actor's face is so important, so when they can't have an expression, it destroys their craft. 

Edited June 18, 2019 by izabella

[Chaos Theory]

3 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Am I supposed to like these women?  I don't know.  I like Jane, I guess, and Bonnie seems okay, but the rest are kind of too wacko for me.  Not sure why I should keep watching, to be honest. 

You just named the only two I don’t like.   They drag down the show for me.  They are both just so boring.  I absolutely adore the other women.    Madeline just lacks self awareness and it is honestly fun to watch.   Celeste has some of the best scenes of the show with her shrink and her sons.   Reneta is that person who worked hard to get where she is but married badly and has her husband both need and resent her success.    

Edited June 18, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[Ellaria]

The acting continues to be terrific. The scenery is stunning. Yet, I am having a hard time getting drawn into the narrative. Having watched the first two episodes, I’m not sure what story they are trying to tell this season.

Is Perry’s death a crime or self-defense? What is the aftermath of a violent death on those that witnessed it? What does a survivor of domestic abuse do once the abuser is gone? How do the events of that night further complicate the marriages of these troubled, entitled, lonely people?

All of these are worthy stories but, IMO, none are being done justice. Too many characters and too many side plots. Did we really need Bonnie’s mother and her voodoo stuff? Meryl Streep is a marvelous actress but I find her role to be unnecessary. She seems to lurk in corners making paranoid characters even more paranoid. 

Again, the acting is stellar but it is taking precedence over plot.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Ellaria Sand

[StardustMemories]

On 6/17/2019 at 1:56 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

In the flashback where Perry asked Celeste about her family, he told her he had a brother who died when he was 5.

When I first saw the scene with Mary Louise saying she almost couldn't go on after [some male name] died, I assumed she meant her husband.  But then after the flashback scene of Perry saying his brother died, I wondered if Mary Louise had been talking about her other son in that conversation.  I'm sure we'll find out eventually, along with what happened to him.

[Dominii]

On 6/17/2019 at 6:19 AM, skotnikov said:

Meryl Streep is so camp in this, it's really hard to watch. . 

This! I like me some Meryl, but COME ON, please make it so she's not so cartoonish!

On 6/17/2019 at 12:24 PM, Melina22 said:

What I find weird is that instead of commenting on how wonderful it is to have a highly praised story with well respected actresses we are all commenting on silly things like their looks.  

I also agree with this, but my girlfriend pointed out that it's obvious that these women (both in the series and out in the real world) want people to look at them. Their clothes and hair, except for Jane's, are impeccable, and they wear tons of makeup and heels and drive expensive cars. My gal wears yoga pants and tank tops most of the time, and she's as beautiful as any of the actresses.

[Kath94]

On 6/16/2019 at 7:41 PM, anniebird said:

According to Vulture, they did that so her teeth would look more like Alexander Skarsgard's teeth. I guess the show assumes that we will all remember what his teeth looked like.

I refer to them as her "Margaret Thatcher Iron Woman" teeth.

[Razzberry]

I'm not a fan of child actors generally but find these tolerable, mainly because their scenes are so short.  Presented as being 'wise beyond their years' in typical Hollywood fashion, mercifully their actual dialog rarely exceeds a few words.

[ferjy]

On 6/17/2019 at 7:09 PM, lucindabelle said:

Nicole Kidman will be 52 this week and I think she looks AMAZING. I don't think she looks like wax or her eyes look weird. her jawline is perfect, and unless she's had a facelift (which, no), that's just genetics.

I'll be 55 this summer and here to tell you at 52 I did not look that great. MOST women don't. She's totally plausible as a mom of elementary school aged kids.

It makes sense to me that she is getting nostalgic for Perry and forgetting the horror. He's been her world for a long time. But seeing him just punching her in the stomach was horrifying.

"He salted you." Aw.

She has looked plastic in the past though, it's been obvious that she has had facelifts. She does look better in some scenes than others. I wonder if they're using softer lighting in some of the shots. And her eyes were near slits which many actors get when their facelifts are a tad too tight. They've put quite a bit of eyeliner around her eyes so they do look bigger now. But mostly it's that immobile upper lip. We've seen it in other actresses as well. I do have sympathy for aging actresses, there's often no place for them in Hollywood. How nice it would be if we could see a lot of the older actresses in parts they keep giving to 20- and 30-year-olds. So many times the man is in his 60's and instead of casting some of these wonderful older actresses as their partner, they cast a 25-year-old. Anyway, the point is that the acting (not the looks per se, so really we are talking about their acting) is affected, they just can't emote as well when part of their face is frozen.

Edited June 19, 2019 by ferjy

[ElectricBoogaloo]

16 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

I think Nicole looks lovely on camera and is believable as the mother of grade-schoolers, but lets face it, all of these ladies with the exception of Shailene, Zoe, (and possibly Reese), are at least a decade too old to have little ones in elementary school. IRL they would all have kids in college, or even Grad school. Because the actresses are all so phenomenal, I'm able to suspend disbelief and enjoy the show nonetheless!

Reese is definitely within the age range of having a kid in elementary school. She is 43 IRL and Chloe is 7 and from a second marriage, so it's totally believable to me that she married in her early to mid 20s, had Abigail when she was 26, got divorced, stayed single for a while, met Ed, got married, and then had Chloe when she was 36. Even if her character is a few years older/younger than Reese actually is, that all seems realistic to me.

11 hours ago, Crs97 said:

How old is Reese’s Tennessee?  Nicole’s Faith?  I don’t think they are too far off in ages.

Funny that you brought this up because I didn't read it until after I typed all of the above. Reese was actually in a similar situation to Madeline. Her oldest daughter Ava (from her first marriage) is 19 and her youngest child Tennessee (from her second marriage) is 6. Nicole's kids from her first marriage are now 26 and 24. Sunday is 10 and Faith is 8.

As for Celeste and Renata, both Nicole and Laura were born in 1967 so they were 49 when they filmed S1 back in 2016. Having a kid when you're 42 isn't impossible. It's actually more common than you might think. I know several people who had kids into their 40s (including two that were first time oopsie babies after several years of marriage). Renata would have had to work her ass off to get where she is now in her career so I totally buy that she was focused on her career and didn't want to potentially bring her career to a screeching halt with any amount of maternity leave. Celeste was a lawyer so even if she wasn't trying to become the youngest partner in the firm, she was still working a lot of hours until she met Perry. She had issues conceiving so I'm guessing after they got married, they tried getting pregnant for about a year before seeking fertility treatments and then it just took time. In both cases, I find it realistic for Celeste and Renata to be older moms.

13 hours ago, sashayshante said:

To be fair, the cosmetic work Ryan got was just the nail in the coffin. Her whole career was based on being the girl next door. As a result, her target market was women who didn't find her threatening. When her affair with Russell Crowe was revealed, her entire career went up in flames. Of course, Dennis Quaid was a cheating sleazebag throughout their marriage and nobody cared. His career didn't skip a beat.

ITA - she was already aging out of the cutesie romantic comedy roles and then the news about her affair came out. The work on her face certainly didn't help matters but I don't think she would have been swimming in roles even if she hadn't had work done and had an affair. To be blunt, she was 39 when she had an affair with Russell Crowe and that's when actresses are relegated to mom roles and secondary/tertiary characters (and that's if they can manage to get cast at all). The bulk of her successful films were in romantic comedies and with rare exception, those roles do not go to 40+ year old actresses. Her career was on its way out at that point even if she'd left her face alone and not had an affair.

And I also totally agree that it sucks that she was crucified for having ONE affair when her husband was cheating on her left and right and it never affected his career.

12 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

I love the actress who plays Bonnie’s mom. But I wondered why they didn’t cast Lisa Bonet in the role. But if the character is going to play the mean drunk, that makes sense. Lisa would not be right for this role. 

Having grown up poor, I totally get where Renata is coming from. You will do anything to not go back there again.  I saw fear under all of that bluster. 

I wonder if another reason that Lisa Bonet wasn't cast is that she didn't want Zoe's role to be overshadowed by the inevitable press that would come with her mom being cast to play her mom.

When Renata said that what Gordon had done took her right back where she started, her motivations and her character made a lot more sense to me. Growing up poor really affects your mindset about things. The desperation to never have to live like again is a huge motivating factor so I totally get why she was so determined to be successful and why she's livid that Gordon has done this to her.

[ECM1231]

7 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

IMO Celeste didn't have to tell her sons their daddy was an abusive, raping a$$hole but she didn't need to make it sound like he was a great guy who just had a bad day every once in a while either. Eventually they'll be old enough to find out the truth and they'll probably blame her.

ITA. I was yelling at the TV screen as she kept telling the twins their daddy was a wonderful man, a wonderful man!  Wonderfully monstrous, for sure!

[cardigirl]

5 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

You just named the only two I don’t like.   They drag down the show for me.  They are both just so boring.  I absolutely adore the other women.    Madeline just lacks self awareness and it is honestly fun to watch.   Celeste has some of the best scenes of the show with her shrink and her sons.   Reneta is that person who worked hard to get where she is but married badly and has her husband both need and resent her success.    

I meant like as in admire. I saw no redeeming qualities in these women, although I suppose that doesn’t make for good drama. They’re wealthy, spoiled, and  I’m wondering why I should care about them. I’ll keep watching to see if I develop empathy for them. 😉

[goldilocks]

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

I meant like as in admire. I saw no redeeming qualities in these women, although I suppose that doesn’t make for good drama. They’re wealthy, spoiled, and  I’m wondering why I should care about them. I’ll keep watching to see if I develop empathy for them. 😉

You don't have to find the character likeable to enjoy their performances. Sometimes villains are the most fun to watch!

Edited June 19, 2019 by goldilocks

[sashayshante]

4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Did we really need Bonnie’s mother and her voodoo stuff? Meryl Streep is a marvelous actress but I find her role to be unnecessary.

ITA. What worked last season was that the cast was so tight and not one of them outshined the other. Meryl Steep's presence throws that out the window. And now we have Bonnie's mother. But what REALLY is disrupting the flow is the attention the husbands are getting. last season the men were secondary. That worked. Now they're driving the plots and it's no bueno.

And we could totally do without Jane. For someone with such an integral part of last season's plot, she's unspeakably boring this season.

[ferjy]

On 6/17/2019 at 8:19 AM, skotnikov said:

Or an old Hollywood grande dame, who thinks just her presence in a frame is a greatest gift to a humankind. Meryl Streep is so camp in this, it's really hard to watch. . 

Starting with the fake teeth. That was really unnecessary. And as someone else pointed out, a little insulting to Alexander Skarsgård! We've all watched enough TV to be able to pretend the characters are related knowing they aren't in real life so won't look like them.

[Armchair Critic]

Reese almost went the way of Meg Ryan, her last few films flopped even the romantic comedies she before had been so successful in. Then this show came out and revived her career.

[Crs97]

Reese had Wild and Gone Girl before this series.  Even without BLL she was going to be fine.  She was very smart to have her production company focus on movies/television with strong female roles so that she could create her own path forward.

[stagmania]

Perhaps a thread should be created for people who want to speculate on the actresses’ plastic surgery and discuss their career trajectories. It’s really drowning out discussion of the actual episode here.  

Speaking of, I really liked this one and thought it laid the groundwork for several stories I’m really interested in and a few new mysteries. What happened in Bonnie’s past? Is her mom abusive? How did Perry’s brother die? Were Mary Louise or Perry involved? 

Watching Celeste regress back to defending Perry is so painful but also feels so real. He’s dead and that gives her the space to romanticize him and rewrite their history again. Whichever poster said upthread that she clearly wants to be punished is dead on - she is giving Mary Louise all the ammunition she needs to take the kids, blaming herself again and engaging in self-harming behaviors. 

I thought Jane handled things with Ziggy as well as she could once the choice to keep him in the dark was taken from her. They have a close bond and her lying to him was damaging it - at that point telling him was the right thing to do. And it’s better for all the boys if they can understand and define their relationship for themselves rather than hearing it interpreted from other kids. 

Which brings me to Madeline, who honestly is so careless that I kind of think she wanted to be caught, too. Poor, poor Ed. He didn’t deserve the indignity of hearing Abigail so casually fling the affair at her mother. I think it’s true that he knew something was up last year, but he didn’t know exactly what, or that others knew Madeline had betrayed him. It’s humiliating and emasculating to not only find out, but from his teenage stepdaughter who seems to view him with pity, and his reaction makes perfect sense. 

Other things I loved: Bonnie’s mom giving us the insight that Bonnie married Nathan because he’s dumb and would never figure her out (that rang so true for me), Jane and Celeste continuing to be so kind and honest with each other as they navigate this horrible situation, Chloe asking for her phone back, everything Renata said and did. YMMV but I am very happy this second season exists. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by stagmania

[Crs97]

2 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I think it’s true that he knew something was up last year, but he didn’t know exactly what, or that others knew Madeline had betrayed him. 

In the season 1 scene, she tells him she knows she hasn’t been the best wife to him and then starts to cry as she says she made a terrible mistake.  He tells her no and they stare at each other meaningfully in silence.  It was so clear he knew, but didn’t want her to say it out loud.  If he is upset that others knew or that now it’s out and they can’t pretend anymore, then I am fine, but I don’t like the idea of ignoring that scene (that I thought was pretty powerful) so that we can pretend he is blindsided by her affair.

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's please get back to the episode, and take further off topic discussion (including work actors may or may not have done) to the appropriate place, the Small Talk: PTA Meetings topic. Thank you.

[CountryGirl]

Does anyone think Perry lied about having a brother that died?

[jeansheridan]

4 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Does anyone think Perry lied about having a brother that died?

No because it is a pretty easy lie to disprove. At some point Celeste would meet his mother and  a child's death will come up in passing. Especially given Celeste's miscarriages. Or trouble concieving. 

After watching twice I still don't know with whom Celeste was having sex in the car. The back tattoo says a different man but did we ever see Perry's bare back? And her eye make-up which was heavier than she usually wears. 

And while I agree it is too soon for her to date, her therapist is so often correct, this one error I can forgive. Sometimes just getting back on the horse is what you need to do. She didn't say marry the guy or even have sex. Just have an adult conversation and flex those muscles a bit. Find out how a non-controlling man behaves. 

[Snow Fairy]

Didn't read all,but does anyone think Mary Louise was also abused? So she is constantly blaiming the women, because she was also being told she is to blaim?

I don't think she wouldn't know what Perry was like

[sashayshante]

19 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

After watching twice I still don't know with whom Celeste was having sex in the car.

my moneys on the guy being the guy that's been flirting with Jane at the aquarium.

[jeansheridan]

2 hours ago, sashayshante said:

my moneys on the guy being the guy that's been flirting with Jane at the aquarium.

I don't think he has enough game to look at Celeste! Now the twins teacher. Hello gorgeous. 

[msrachelj]

On 6/18/2019 at 8:51 AM, Crs97 said:

Regarding plastic surgery, I had a friend get some due to a medical issue.  I think her doctor warned her about possible addiction issues, and sure enough once he fixed the one area she said she started noticing every line and wrinkle.  She has stayed away from doing more, but I can totally see actresses doing just a little more here and then again just one more thing there until they look unreal, especially if a mistake is made that they have to have fixed.

How old is Reese’s Tennessee?  Nicole’s Faith?  I don’t think they are too far off in ages.

Her kids name is Tennessee? 🙄