S08.E05: The Bells

[Uncle JUICE]

I kind of felt like this episode more than any previous episode was really, really counting on the visual strength of the dragon destroying King's Landing to carry the viewer. It's not a total mistake, but unsurprisingly this wasn't well executed: it goes on too long and becomes too 'okay, got it, he's destroying everything' to continue to be a distraction from what is otherwise a pretty uneven and senseless episode. 

I did draw some satisfaction out of how easily the city fell, because it only proves what we all knew: if she'd done this in S7 E1, we'd have had a very different show for the last 12 eps or however many it is. You could have done a lot more building of the Mad Queen narrative (the last straw is her boyfriend friend zones her???? WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED TO THE WOMEN ON THIS SHOW??? BRIENNE'S LAST SCENE IS CRYING IN A BATHROBE!). Once you get past hwo fucking cool it was to see Drogon doing Drogon things, there's a laundry list of problems.

• Why introduce the golden company at all? Couldn't you have just had them be Lannister soldiers? The leader even has a line in the season premiere.
• Euron fights Jaime, stabs him in both sides, Jaime's on the absolute verge of death, only to recover not just enough to defeat Euron, but enough to walk from Blackwater Bay to the Map Room? Do people on Planetos keep their vital organs someplace else?
• Arya going into King's Landing in the first place...why? 
• Uh oh, we need she's crazy. She didn't comb her hair! Girl leaders, am I right?
• Let me get this straight: Cersei gets to die in a romantic tragedy way, instead of being arrested, tried and executed for her voluminous crimes against humanity, and Jaime gets to die a bad guy, and both are killed by bricks. Good grief. Jaime earned the right to die a good guy, and Cersei's end should have been much better. As it is how will they know she didn't escape?
• How were there so many Dothraki left?

I will miss you, Game of THrones, but it's been a long time since there were good times. 

1 minute ago, ACW said:

After the bells, I would have had Dany fly straight to the Red Keep and burn it to get to Cersei.  Which still would have killed lots of innocent civilians inside, and still would get the Starks and Tyrion mad at her, but would at least have made sense.

She could have done exactly this before there WERE any scorpions. It's really annoying!

[Bannon]

There was nothing in this episode, per se, that was truly awful (ok, the Euron/Jamie Deathmatch was written and shot with staggering ineptitude, but ignoring that....), but taken as a whole with previous episodes, it's kind of a mess, for reasons others have pointed out. 

The shame of it is there is the seed of a well written finish here.

[Kanner]

26 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

As for the Unsullied.  Sure they are a disciplined army, but think of the horror they saw at the battle of Winterfell.  I also thought about Grey Worm, he saw the love of his life, the only woman who he cared about, who saw him as a man, murdered.  When Dany gave him Missandei's belt, he threw it in the fire; probably thinking, what's the point, she's dead.

The Unsullied were 100% in character.  When we first meet them we are told they will only kill who they are told to kill.  When Dany decided to not listen to the surrender that was their cue to follow their leader.

While the scene with Jon telling his men not to fight was both for us to see he is not following Dany and to contrast the downside to an Unsullied army.

[Affogato]

10 minutes ago, ACW said:

Also: WTF weren't there some scorpions mounted on the Red Keep?

I don’t think Cersei had much agency at this point. She had reverted to damsel and was leting Euron act for her in Jaimes place. She wasn’t that important to Euron or the golden company. 

 note that Cersei has lost, if anything, more than Dany and dealt with it longer and yet no one uses it as an excuse for her evil ways.

Everyone in this damn show has lost everything at this point. We are now comparing their responses to monumental loss. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Affogato

[ElizaD]

I always preferred Theon's redemption arc to Jaime's because he felt actual remorse for the suffering he had caused and wanted to atone by helping those he had hurt, but wow, I didn't expect Jaime to relapse to this degree. Now that we're almost finished, I feel pretty safe in saying that Theon was the only character who was around from season 1 to season 8 and never disappointed me: even when he was being a screwup, Alfie played him excellently and his arc was heading in a logical direction towards a satisfying conclusion. So that's something that I can remember even more positively when I contrast it with the dumpster fires the remaining characters are turning into.

Dany's campaign was destroyed by Tyrion's advice. He went along with Tywin and Joffrey's atrocities because they were family, he wanted to help Cersei escape the consequences of hers even after he began aiding her rival, so it's grotesque to watch the whining about innocent lives by someone who didn't give a damn when it was his family wrecking them for power. Dany tried to be good and reasonable and listen to the more experienced men who then wanted to replace her with a Targaryen dick, and now she's the Mad Queen. Team Olenna Was Right.

[GodsBeloved]

6 hours ago, RealReality said:

She said the people of westeros hate her. 

I haven't done a rewatch but did she say that hated her? I thought she said they didn't love her which isn't saying they hate her.

[GodsBeloved]

6 hours ago, Dobian said:

I guess Dany didn't get the memo that she only needed to torch the Red Keep and would have taken over a perfectly intact city with a huge tax paying population.  Now she gets to rule over....rubble.

Yeah, after she got past the guard at what I thought was the entry to the city, I thought OK now fly on over to the Red Keep.

I have always been indifferent to Daenerys and I don't hate her for her actions here but I thought Why'd you do that D, WHY?

I have no problem accepting she snapped but still why girl why?

And now I may feel sorry for her because thinking about it in the light of day, her comment to Jon about Westeros not loving her makes me think she was looking for more than just the IT.

Edited May 13, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[lucindabelle]

4 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Yeah, after she got past the guard at what I thought was the entry to the city, I thought OK now fly on over to the Red Keep.

I have always been indifferent to Daenerys and I don't hate her for her actions here but I keep thinking Why'd you do that D, WHY?

The writers told me to.

[Heathrowe]

The Jon-Dany kiss was truly awkward and unsexy.

I think Emilia Clarke was great in the early scene talking about betrayal.

Jon continues to be useless. I was kind of expecting Dany to torch him in the street and blame it on friendly fire. Then she wouldn't have to worry about his claim to the throne. Curious to see if she comes after Sansa and Jon in the next episode - I don't see how she can take the throne with Jon in the background as an option. If they were to marry, that would work-but judging from the awkward kiss, he's not feeling it anymore.

The episode was exciting to watch, but so many plot holes and weirdnesses. I understand that it's a tough show to wrap up, and I think the showrunners have condensed an enormous amount of raw material but....it's even more rushed than I worried it would be.

I have always thought Dany could easily turn tyrant, but even being sympathetic to that viewpoint, this was really turning on a dime. Compare her actions to Stannis in earlier seasons, where there was at least an obvious progression. Have there been hints that Dany could turn monstrous or be crazy-yes. But the scripts are always so ambiguous-good writing doesn't need to be obvious but a certain point the viewer wants some damn clarity.

My biggest complaint is my overall complaint for the  whole season/show at this point. These characters are just running around like crazy chickens with no real point. Why was Arya just walking around Kings Landing? Why does the Hound wait until they get to the Red Keep to dissuade her from killing Cersei? Why did no one (Arya, specifically) use the cave entrance to the keep to leave? Why did Arya tell that woman and little girl they had to leave their safe place or they'd die...and then they walked outside and died one minute later??! Thanks Arya! Why did Jon go get Dany to help with killing the Night King when all they had to do was put Bran out in his chair and have Arya jump out of a tree to kill the Night King? I'm not sure having dragons or the unsullied was much help at the Battle of Winterfell. They would have lost if Arya hadn't killed the NK when she did. Why didn't Dany just sack KL last season? What was the point in waiting? What on earth was Jaime doing? He was basically sacrificed to build the plot of Tyrion betraying Dany. He stupidly gets captured on his way to Cersei. Again-the oblique writing-I am still unsure why he was going to Cersei. He seemed to want her to die. So he just wanted to die with her? He loathes himself, okay-but maybe a bit more exposition to help the viewer understand why he just gave up like that would have been good.

Despite the carnage, I'm happy Drogon made it through the episode. I think the only way this season can be considered a success is that it has really confounded all of my notions of conventional storytelling and character arcs, so I'm not sure what the future holds for Dragons in Westeros. 

[Drogo]

[stagmania]

15 minutes ago, Affogato said:

note that Cersei has lost, if anything, more than Dany and dealt with it longer and yet no one uses it as an excuse for her evil ways.

This is not true. Cersei lived the vast majority of her life in extreme privilege with massive power over others that she used as cruelly as possible. She lost her children due to her own actions. Dany grew up in exile, impoverished, abused, sold like chattel, raped, always on the lookout for people trying to kill her. People seem to forget that because she's had her own hard won power for the last few seasons, but she had to claw her way there. And now her story is ending with the men she put her faith and trust in gaslighting and betraying her. 

12 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

I always preferred Theon's redemption arc to Jaime's because he felt actual remorse for the suffering he had caused and wanted to atone by helping those he had hurt, but wow, I didn't expect Jaime to relapse to this degree. Now that we're almost finished, I feel pretty safe in saying that Theon was the only character who was around from season 1 to season 8 and never disappointed me: even when he was being a screwup, Alfie played him excellently and his arc was heading in a logical direction towards a satisfying conclusion. So that's something that I can remember even more positively when I contrast it with the dumpster fires the remaining characters are turning into.

I have to say, I never expected Theon Greyjoy to have the only coherent character arc in the whole damn story. Good job subverting my expectations on that one, show!

[Detective005]

Sorry guys, but i wish you would know that in medieval times, cities are often destroyed by conquests. Especially if the king does not give up immediately or for a long war

[GodsBeloved]

6 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I try not to overthink this show too much but one thing is bothering me. Drogon put on a masterclass performance and thus illustrated a huge problem with the show; dragons are only as effective as the plot demands. Last week, Rhaegal was unceremoniously shot down and this week Drogon manages to take out the entire Iron Fleet, all of the scorpions, the gates to King’s Landing, and he destroyed most of the city. 

Yet two weeks ago, we had two dragons who could hardly make a dent against the AOTD. It makes no sense. None. 

Rhaegal was injured which is why Jon didn't ride him so I could see that being one reason he got shot down but yes I agree that a lot is plot driven instead of character driver.

[paigow]

46 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

So if Jon is really a man of honor is he going to toss his soldiers in prison?  Because a whole lot of them looked happy to join the Unsullied in the pillaging.

He killed one of his own pre-raping Northener....if all those guys are in prison, who is going to guard them???? The Realm of 7 Electoral Colleges will be governed by Gendry, Davos & Bronn....

[Scaeva]

8 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

It would have been (somewhat) in character if she had flown straight for the Red Keep after the bells rang and incinerated the entire building.  That's more justifiable and if this had ignited some wildfire chain reaction then so be it.  However, she deliberately roasted fleeing civilians and her army massacred soldiers who had already thrown down their arms. 

When Jaime was faced with keeping his oath and letting Aerys burn the city to the ground he chose to dishonor himself forever by killing him.  Jon has a similar choice now - is he going to be OK serving a queen who gives no quarter and deliberately kills civilians?

Daenerys is doomed, and it probably is going to be Jon who kills her.

When Beric Dondarrion died during the Battle of Winterfell Melisandre said he had fulfilled his purpose, implying that her god resurrected him only to save Arya's life so that she could shortly afterward kill the Night King. What then is Jon's purpose? He was also resurrected by the same magic, or at least according to Melisandre by the Lord of Light.

Maybe his purpose is to dispatch Daenerys, who in a single stroke may have even killed more innocent people than the Night King.

[terrymct]

I don't think this was mentioned before, but did you notice what Varys was writing?  We saw the text, it was Jon's birth story.  Most importantly, it was on those little strips of paper that get sent out on a raven.  Varys spent his last hours letting every one in Westeros know about Jon's real identity.

One of Dany's mistakes was to ask Jon to keep it a secret.   The two of them should have worked out a way to make it public and control the spin.

[Drogo]

2 minutes ago, Heathrowe said:

Why does the Hound wait until they get to the Red Keep to dissuade her from killing Cersei?

The Hound didn't have a problem with Arya killing Cersei; he had a problem with Arya dying in order to kill Cersei. 

*The pair had planned to kill Cersei and the Mountain and leave.  Once the castle started falling apart around them, killing Cersei and leaving was becoming less of an option for Arya. 

[Coxfires]

25 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I haven't done a rewatch but did she say that hated her? I thought she said they didn't love her which isn't saying they hate her.

I would have taken Cersei turning the people of Kings Landing and downmining Danny last episode a million times over Gendry sudden brain cells loss, Jaime sleeping with Brienne and Bronn's meh scene. Had we seen that play out and people of KL actively rejecting Daenerys to her face (And why  not have the population lynch some of Danny's soldiers to show they are xenophobic like the Northerners), I might have understood why she went there even after the surrender. I feel the writers shortcutted important points that could have lead to getting why Danny lost it against the people (even if i do see where her anger and loneliness was coming, but not the madness). But here...no, something was missing

Edited May 13, 2019 by Coxfires

[terrymct]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I also thought about Grey Worm, he saw the love of his life, the only woman who he cared about, who saw him as a man, murdered.  When Dany gave him Missandei's belt, he threw it in the fire; probably thinking, what's the point, she's dead.

It wasn't her belt.  It was her slave collar.

[BonnieD]

Quote

  9 HOURS AGO, SCAEVA SAID:

It would have been (somewhat) in character if she had flown straight for the Red Keep after the bells rang and incinerated the entire building.  That's more justifiable and if this had ignited some wildfire chain reaction then so be it.  However, she deliberately roasted fleeing civilians and her army massacred soldiers who had already thrown down their arms. 

All of this. Simply stupid. They even showed her make a grim face and start flying toward the castle, only to cut to this stupid scene of destruction instead. It made zero sense.

Why is everyone so sure Cersei and Jaime died in the collapse? Characters have survived greater odds than that. Like Arya, they may be sheltered under a beam or something and at least Cersei will crawl out of the rubble.
 

With the war against the Night King over, everything else seems pointless. I would rather have had that be the culmination.

[kieyra]

Does anyone have any thoughts on why we spent so much of the episode watching Arya stumble around KL, fall, get up, fall, get up, fall, connect with some randos and watch them die, fall, get up, fall, get up, etc? 

I mean, I have a few theories but none of them feel quite right:

--Showrunners wanted us to a have a ground-level view of the destruction and carnage. Okay, sure. But we didn't need Arya there for them to show it to us. The carnage would still be there, and in fact might have been more affecting without us wondering "why the hell is Arya stumbling around in the middle of it?"

--Showrunners wanted us to see Arya realize that War is Hell. But Arya just fought in a gigantic battle for all life on the planet against hordes of screaming zombies and then knifed their leader. She's already seen plenty of death. She already knows that War is Hell. 

--Showrunners wanted us to think that Arya (after witnessing the carnage) is now going to be the one to kill Dany, their new Big Bad. Nope, no way do they give both the NK and Dany's deaths to Arya. 

?? I'm open to other ideas. 

Mostly salty because it made what was already a mess of an episode even more badly paced. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by kieyra

[GodsBeloved]

6 hours ago, RealReality said:

And you shouldn't be in charge of a little league team, much less seven kingdoms if you can't move past the losses you've sustained on your side and not take it out on townspeople who literally had nothing to do with the wrongs visited on you.

Daenerys said Jon betrayed her and I'm on Team No He Did Not. She sees him as betraying her because he did not keep who he was from his family. I wonder if she sees the people as wronging her because in her words "far more people in Westerios love you than love me. I don't have love here."

[terrymct]

So where is Gendry?  I didn't see him with the soldiers at all, but there was a lot going I might have missed him.   I still suspect he'll be a wild card that is played next week.   It's the "Chekhov's gun" thing.  Everyone knows he's Robert's son and Dany made him a lord.  That gun is laying on the table, loaded and cocked.   

[Hana Chan]

5 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Cersei lived the vast majority of her life in extreme privilege with massive power over others that she used as cruelly as possible. She lost her children due to her own actions. Dany grew up in exile, impoverished, abused, sold like chattel, raped, always on the lookout for people trying to kill her. People seem to forget that because she's had her own hard won power for the last few seasons, but she had to claw her way there. And now her story is ending with the men she put her faith and trust in gaslighting and betraying her. 

True, but only to a limited degree. Cersei might have grown up with wealth and had a comfortable upbringing, but she had little control over her own life. She was forced to marry a man that she hated (and I'm betting that her wedding night was no better than Dany's). The only control she was able to maintain was ensuring that she didn't bear Robert any children. She then could only control affairs through her children (a precarious proposition when it was Joffrey on the throne). It took many years and cost her nearly everything before she was able to take power for herself.  She had to claw her way to the top just as much as Dany did.

Dany, unfortunately, lost sight of what her taking the throne should accomplish. The goals that she had of "breaking the wheel" might have been heartfelt (even if there never was any real explanation of what that would entail) and in the end it just became about her claiming power. She might have felt pushed by the actions of Tyrion and Varys, but Varys in particular had made it clear that his loyalty to her only extended as far as his belief that her rule would benefit the realm. If Dany feels that she is being betrayed, it is only because she has been pushing those around her to work against her with her own actions.

[TaraS1]

At this point, I hope Dany gets to crisp up some more people before she dies (like Sansa) and then uses the ashes and bones to flavor a nice big kettle of stew for her and Drogon to snack on.  

Cersei gets to die in the arms of the man she loves, but Dany will be murdered for being an evil tyrant?  Fuck that nonsense. #TeamDany4eva

[Chaos Theory]

Just because you don’t like character development doesn’t mean it’s retconning.  Dany is a particularly popular character who a lot of people wanted on the thrown at the end but her development isn’t exactly hard to understand.   She spent most of the series developing friendships and lost her two most loyal advisors in a couple of episodes and then finds out that Westeros doesn’t particularly want her on the thrown.  All the people she should trust she doesn’t and the people she did are either dead or are the type who rape and murder innocents.   Dany doesn’t have anyone to temper her worst instincts.   A good leader needs that.

Or they become a bad leader.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[kieyra]

11 minutes ago, Detective005 said:

Sorry guys, but i wish you would know that in medieval times, cities are often destroyed by conquests. Especially if the king does not give up immediately or for a long war

Yeah! Especially when dragons are involved. Thanks for this history reminder.

/s

[Bryce Lynch]

As horribly written as Dany's heel turn was, Jaime's arc was just as bad, though I didn't care as much about his character.

He goes through a 7 season redemption and growth arc, finally decides to fight for the good guys and get together with a good woman who loves him, and then he goes back to evil Cersei.

If that isn't bad enough, Dumb and Dumber treat it like a noble thing and give Jaime and Cersei a romantic, tragic ending to their sick relationship.

Also, there is no way Cersei would flee to save her child.  She didn't flee when Ned gave her the chance.  She didn't flee before the battle of Blackwater, but was prepared to kill herself and her child.

Cersei gave us the signature quote of the series.  "When you play the game of thrones you win or you die.  There is no middle ground." and she always lived by it, until Dumb and Dumber ruined her character along with Dany and Jaime.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Mardo2044]

9 hours ago, seawind said:

Oh the other good thing in the episode: Sandor yelling "FUCKING DIE!!!!!"

This was the best.

[lucindabelle]

8 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

    

9 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

True, but only to a limited degree. Cersei might have grown up with wealth and had a comfortable upbringing, but she had little control over her own life. She was forced to marry a man that she hated (and I'm betting that her wedding night was no better than Dany's). The only control she was able to maintain was ensuring that she didn't bear Robert any children. She then could only control affairs through her children (a precarious proposition when it was Joffrey on the throne). It took many years and cost her nearly everything before she was able to take power for herself.  She had to claw her way to the top just as much as Dany did.

 B

Have you watched the show? Cersei was IN LOVE with Robert. He HURT HER FEELINGS on their wedding night by calling her Lyanna.

7 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Just because you don’t like character development doesn’t mean it’s retconning.  Danny is a particularly popular character who a lot of people wanted on the thrown at the end but her development isn’t exactly hard to understand.   She spent most of the series developing friendships and lost her two most loyal advisors in a couple of episodes and then finds out that Westeros doesn’t particularly want her on the thrown.  All the people she should trust she doesn’t and the people she did are other dead or are the type who rape and murder innocents.   Dany doesn’t have anyone to temper her worst instincts.   A good leader needs that.

Or they become a bad leader.

If they’re women you mean.

this is a very male idea of women not being able to handle their emotions. Hysteria, as someone on twitter pointed out.

[Kanner]

I haven't read the whole thread so if someone brought this up already, sorry.  Why do you think Dany told Tyrion that Jaime was captured?  Do you think she was testing him? If she was, he definitely failed. It just seemed like weird timing.  But every character seems to tell people information at the oddest times.

[Helena Dax]

Ugh.

So, with three dragons, Dany could have destroyed the Red Keep in five seconds. If she had followed her instincts, she would have conquered the IT the same day she arrived to Westeros.

Supposedly. GRRM wants to subvert cliches, right? I doubt turning the humble orphan boy into the Chosen One could be considered revolutionary story-telling. 

I wanted something worse for Cersei and something very different from Dany. Not surprised about Jaime, though.

There were a couple of great scenes -Arya and the Hound, Tyrion and Jaime-, but all in all, I was disappointed. 

[Uncle JUICE]

23 minutes ago, Heathrowe said:

My biggest complaint is my overall complaint for the  whole season/show at this point. These characters are just running around like crazy chickens with no real point. Why was Arya just walking around Kings Landing? Why does the Hound wait until they get to the Red Keep to dissuade her from killing Cersei? Why did no one (Arya, specifically) use the cave entrance to the keep to leave? Why did Arya tell that woman and little girl they had to leave their safe place or they'd die...and then they walked outside and died one minute later??! Thanks Arya! Why did Jon go get Dany to help with killing the Night King when all they had to do was put Bran out in his chair and have Arya jump out of a tree to kill the Night King? I'm not sure having dragons or the unsullied was much help at the Battle of Winterfell. They would have lost if Arya hadn't killed the NK when she did. Why didn't Dany just sack KL last season? What was the point in waiting? What on earth was Jaime doing? He was basically sacrificed to build the plot of Tyrion betraying Dany. He stupidly gets captured on his way to Cersei. Again-the oblique writing-I am still unsure why he was going to Cersei. He seemed to want her to die. So he just wanted to die with her? He loathes himself, okay-but maybe a bit more exposition to help the viewer understand why he just gave up like that would have been good.

[Hana Chan]

1 minute ago, Helena Dax said:

Supposedly. GRRM wants to subvert cliches, right? I doubt turning the humble orphan boy into the Chosen One could be considered revolutionary story-telling. 

Nor would the silver haired orphaned girl with dragons from lineage that was driven from power and gets to rule benevolently after deposing a tyrant. That's about as big a fantasy trope as you're ever going to find.

[Bryce Lynch]

This is the lowest rated episode on Rotten Tomatoes in GOT history at 50%.   Episode 4 was the 3rd lowest rated at 57%.  The season is rated at only 52% in the Audience Score.  The lowest before that was Season 7 at 88%.  All other seasons were in the 90s.  

[Lillith]

OK so I've had a bit ore time to digest it. Still didn't like the episode but there were a few "bright spots" for me.

1) The actors: Kit Harrington was kind of weak but he's always been one of the weaker actors on the show IMO. But the rest of them brought their A games in a big way. Even if the writing was weak the acting across the board was stellar (except as noted above).

2) In retrospect even if it wasn't satisfying Cersei geniuinely terrified and cowering in the bowels of the Red Keep made sense in it's own way. Very Hitler in his Bunkeresque. 

3) Visuals were terrifyingly beautiful.

4) They made a point of showing in detail the suffering of the common people which is often ignored or glossed over. 

I would have minded this episode less if it was not all so rushed. But the rushed conclusion and poor plotting and writing just hurt the show. 

[One Tough Cookie]

I gotta be honest.  This episode reminded me too much of 9/11 and  I''m still not over that.

[kieyra]

1 minute ago, One Tough Cookie said:

I gotta be honest.  This episode reminded me too much of 9/11 and  I''m still not over that.

Yeah, I don't think that was an accident. Also wasn't a good idea. 

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman said:

Everything that was building up to khaleesi becoming a great ruler, all undone in a 1/2 show epic meltdown. 

But she was never a great ruler... She was/ is a conquerer fueled by revenge destiny and a savior complex.. In some ways she's Robert Baratheon great in a war but not great on the throne.. She has empathy and genuine kindness for the ppl she cares about.. And in time maybe she would been.. But I never saw much about her that screamed sound leader.. Her first impulse was almost  always violence... Extreme violence.. She had to be cajoled into more diplomatic options.. But I'm resigned to the fact that the Dany I was watching.. Who did bad things to bad ppl.. Didn't land the same way to other folks.. So her recent behavior feels like a betrayal... And to some there are larger issues when it comes to representation of female characters... I don't think I'm equipped to really get into the meat of that.. So agree to disagree 

[terrymct]

27 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

True, but only to a limited degree. Cersei might have grown up with wealth and had a comfortable upbringing, but she had little control over her own life. She was forced to marry a man that she hated (and I'm betting that her wedding night was no better than Dany's). The only control she was able to maintain was ensuring that she didn't bear Robert any children.

Cersei said that at first she was enamored with the romantic image of Robert as the brave hero but it was his womanizing and drunkenness that drove her to hate him.  Her first child, the black haired beauty who died young, was Robert's, not Jaime's.

[Helena Dax]

28 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Nor would the silver haired orphaned girl with dragons from lineage that was driven from power and gets to rule benevolently after deposing a tyrant. That's about as big a fantasy trope as you're ever going to find.

I can't say I've read tons of fantasy books, but I can't remember any story of the sort.

[terrymct]

18 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I wanted something worse for Cersei and something very different from Dany. Not surprised about Jaime, though.

One of the most interesting things about GoT is that it doesn't go where you think it will.  That was clear when Ned was executed.

[Helena Dax]

19 minutes ago, terrymct said:

One of the most interesting things about GoT is that it doesn't go where you think it will.  That was clear when Ned was executed.

Yeah, I know, but there's a difference between surprising and disappointing (i.e. Dexter or HIMYM finale)

[Drogo]

Arya's white horse that took her out of the city looks a lot like the one she got when she got Needle back and finally stopped trying to kill Sandor.

Some dead people and 12 chickens later...

If I'm letting myself get whimsical, maybe the Lord of Light brought Sandor back as her horse to get her out of there. 

[laprin]

11 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

FUCK THAT EPISODE.

8 years of character building and they decided to assassinate everyone's character in one episode.

.......

At least we got the Hound dying a heroic death, and Arya showing her humanity till the end. But other than that, I have nothing good to say about this episode. If this is the ending they thought was best, then I don;t think D&D had any clue what was so great about this show.

Bravo to your entire post - especially these two points! This season has revealed to me that D&D never had the kind of writing chops or creative vision that I gave them credit for. Once they did not have the work of G. R.R. Martin as their primary guide, they could not deliver on their own merit. The gaslighting of Dani smacks not only of lazy writing, but a fundamental lack of understanding of her character.  In a single season, they have diminished this show from arguably GOAT status to just one of the better shows ever created. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by laprin

[Scaeva]

9 hours ago, Xantar said:

I would have written the episode so that burning the city to the ground made tactical sense. Dany destroyed the Iron Fleet, disabled all the scorpions, and then was left sitting there facing a surrendering army. Fine, if she has no mercy she can go ahead and torch the enemy soldiers. But then why take aim at the civilians? In fact, why not just fly directly at the Red Keep, burn it all down, and be done with it?

It all could have been written to make so much more sense if the innocent humans shields had been actually used as human shields instead of just being scattered around in tactically useless locations. 

Daenerys reducing the city to ash wasn't completely out of left field. She's been threatening to do that to cities for several seasons now, it's just that before she always had advisers who could pull her back from her worst instincts. Now most of those advisers are now dead, the one she was closest to called for the city's destruction with her dying breath, and she's no longer listening to the one remaining voice of reason. (Tyrion)

That said I do think the TV series did not handle Dany's final break bad moment well. She's had moments of ruthlessness and has threatened to do destroy cities, but in the big picture she's usually been the "just" queen by crapsack medieval fantasy world standards.

I'm totally cool with Dany massacring the people of King's Landing without justification, but he show needed to set that up better. Perhaps having Lannisport sacked during Daenerys' campaign in the Westerlands could have been used as a warning shot. The city resists her and is utterly destroyed in the sack, but the situation is a bit murkier than King's Landing in that there was no surrender attempt and the city's garrison was fighting amongst the civilian populace. The scale of the destruction & slaughter among the civilians plants seeds of doubt in Varys' mind about her character, and his KL plotting is to "prevent another Lannisport," while Tyrion still clings to a thin hope that his city being left a ruin was collateral damage rather than his monarch's intent all along. Fast forward to King's Landing and her true character is revealed when that city attempts to surrender, but gets annihilated just the same.

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, Conan Troutman said:

Okay I did not expect Dany to goll full on bonkers like that. What was even the point? The city has fallen, what did she want to accomplish? I could've taken five minutes less carnage for an explanation on what the hell her motivation was. Or is she just completely bananas now?

Revenge - driven by grief. Same with Grey Worm.

10 hours ago, Paws said:

I thought It was good. Sorry! Dany has done insane shit for a long time!  

The scene between Jamie and Tyrion was PERFECT.

Just because Jamie changed In his story arc, it makes total sense he’d go back to the person he has loved his WHOLE life. 

Nobody on this show show has been killed by the person we expected to kill them, other than Walter Frey by Arya. I’m Ok w Cersei going out according to her prophecy..her tears turned to ashes, and Jamie died in the arms of the woman he loved.

While I initially hated the lack of satisfaction I felt at Cersei's death, after some time thinking about it, I think it was actually poetic. She was born with Jaimie, and died with Jaimie, crushed by the weight of the Red Keep - their lives and "accomplishments" in ashes.

And the Hound's death is similarly poetic, he finally kills his brother by taking him into the depths of the thing that frightens Sandor the most - fire.

Now Urine - that was definitely fan service.

10 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Thank you, I got it too.  Dany was like, fuck all of you. That’s what power can do to someone, especially after what happened to Dany on the last episode.  

I don’t care if I’m the only one, I liked the episode.

You're not the only one.

10 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

I didn't understand that either and Daenarys let off with "Jon betrayed me".

I think it's two-fold. One - Dany told him from the get-go that if he betrayed her, she'd burn him. And Two, she didn't love Varys, and his death was relatively uncomplicated since he had no relatives and/or armies to take revenge.

[Heathrowe]

12 minutes ago, One Tough Cookie said:

I gotta be honest.  This episode reminded me too much of 9/11 and  I''m still not over that.

I thought that, too. 

[Bali]

OK- I've had the night to process this. I'm starting to lean towards it being okay. Stay with me here:

Danaerys tried to get Jon to kissy face her. He wouldn't because he's freaked out about the fact that she is his aunt. He said he loves her, because she's his queen, not because she's the woman he loves. She already knows that the Kingdom doesn't love her and isn't waiting for her return, like she's always been told they are. She knows that you can rule through love or fear. She doesn't think she's going to get love. So she chose fear. Nothing is more terrifying than destroying the city.

Varys betrayed her. He knows about Jon's true identity. Not sure how she knows because they aren't showing us anymore- the writers are telling us.

Drogon coming out of the shadows was cool.

Jamie has said 8 hundred million times that the only woman he loves is Cersei. We were all just fooling ourselves into thinking this was a redemption arc. He died with the woman he loves.

A quick death for Cersei would have been delightful. I wanted Arya to say, The North Remembers as she's pulling off Jamie's face more than anyone. But this way, she got to feel the abandonment and fear she has instilled for a while longer. AND- Arya is more than a soulless assassin.

Arya and The Hound- WONDERFUL SCENE- and one of my favorites in this whole series. When he said, Look at me, Revenge is all I've wanted my whole life- is this what you want to become? Tears in my eyes. Then she thanked him- for so many things.

Clegane bowl- sucked.

Tyrion being SO STUPID? SUCKED. I miss the days when he whored, drank, READ AND KNEW THINGS. But alas, those days are long gone because no one is telling him what to do and say.

Greyworm is just pissed. He loved Missendei. Now she is gone. He's acting out of revenge for everything that has been done to him in his whole life. He snapped- that one I get.

Jon Snow- tried to say, I don't want to be King. Tried to follow the Queen he believed in. Accepted the surrender of Cersei's soldiers. Didn't expect Greyworm to snap, or for Dany to be a big old fat lying psychopath. He did rescue at least one woman from a Dothraki rape. I don't think he was so much a worthless pussy as he was the representation of those of us that didn't want to admit there could be a dark side to Dany.

As for next week- yeah, Tyrion will have to pay for releasing Jamie- Dany already told him that the next time he lets her down will be his last. So, will Jon be able to save Tyrion in time? I hope so.

Maybe we'll find out that Arya is an unexpected dragon and that's why she didn't burn?

[steelyis]

16 minutes ago, terrymct said:

One of Dany's mistakes was to ask Jon to keep it a secret.   The two of them should have worked out a way to make it public and control the spin.

Yes!

That would've been a good political maneuver.

It might've, at the very least, given her more options to work with.

12 minutes ago, BonnieD said:

With the war against the Night King over, everything else seems pointless. I would rather have had that be the culmination.

I was always worried everything after the Night King would feel petty and less... critical?

Less compelling?

And it kind of is.

10 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Does anyone have any thoughts on why we spent so much of the episode watching Arya stumble around KL, fall, get up, fall, get up, fall, connect with some randos and watch them die, fall, get up, fall, get up, etc? 

I mean, I have a few theories but none of them feel quite right:

--Showrunners wanted us to a have a ground-level view of the destruction and carnage. Okay, sure. But we didn't need Arya there for them to show it to us. The carnage would still be there, and in fact might have been more affecting without us wondering "why the hell is Arya stumbling around in the middle of it?"

--Showrunners wanted us to see Arya realize that War is Hell. But Arya just fought in a gigantic battle for all life on the planet against hordes of screaming zombies and then knifed their leader. She's already seen plenty of death. She already knows that War is Hell. 

--Showrunners wanted us to think that Arya (after witnessing the carnage) is now going to be the one to kill Dany, their new Big Bad. Nope, no way do they give both the NK and Dany's deaths to Arya. 

?? I'm open to other ideas. 

Mostly salty because it made what was already a mess of an episode even more badly paced. 

If she does go after Dany then I think Arya escaping through the streets of King's Landing while innocent people are being slaughtered all around her could be what inspires her to seek justice instead of personal revenge for the first time.

I hope they showed it for some narrative reason; if not, it was definitely padding.