S08.E05: The Bells

[AimingforYoko]

The Westeros Nightly News from Michael Harriott of The Root.

[catrice2]

Well, I don't think I have the right to be outraged since I have only watched a few episodes from three seasons. Even with that little view, I feel as if the end of last season and this season was bizarre, even to a short term fan. 

It never made sense to me that Jon and Dany got together. It, as many things this season,  just seemed like fan service.  I find it odd that Jon clearly knows Dany's story and it was OK when he needed her to help fight the White Walkers, and to sleep with her, but now all of a sudden he is disturbed?  The two actors have no chemistry and there was no real build up to their relationship.  It just made so much more sense for her to realize that she was in love with Jorah than to pair her with the "attractive" younger man who comes on the scene.  Jon really had nothing to offer Dany that she couldn't have taken herself without him. Since they had Arya kill the Night King, what did they need Dany's army there for?  Just to weaken her and prop Jon.  Has it not occurred to people that during that battle there was no way for her to discern whether the people she was burning were wights or people fighting wights..but it was ok for her to burn people then as long as it was helping Winterfell. 

I am disappointed that I do not get to see Greyworm going back to Naath in Missandei's memory and protecting her people.  They had to also destroy him by having him attack an unarmed man....when previously there has been nothing to suggest that he would act without permission, whether the action was honorable or not.  On one hand I am thrilled that Jacob Anderson lasted until the end and will get paid for all 6 episodes of this nonsense, but on the other I am a tad bit irritated that his actions are viewed as worse than the rest of them.  If Jon wants to confront Grey worm, he needs to confront everything that his own Northern men also did.  If this is setting up the noble white man putting down the black savage.....after the sole black woman died in chains.. I just can't. 

Also using Missandei's words as the incitement for what Dany did is also disturbing. She rarely gets to speak and when she does it is to ask for Dany to burn everything down?? After being fairly level headed and peaceful?  No final words of love to the partner she never thought she would have, but revenge. 

I never expected a happy ending, and I am not as troubled by what they had Dany do, but why and when they had her do it.  She could have done this a long time ago, when she had 3 dragons.  I have no  reason or need to go and watch the previous seasons.I just can't when people are actually sad about a brother and sister who were sleeping with each other and plotting to kill others finally die.  I could never understand why so many fans would even want Jaimie with Brieanne, and that coupling was just another disappointment for me. 

I get not going for the traditional ending, but I can't understand why they could not go for a smart or cohesive one.   

I will have to just believe what everyone says about Arya and Sansa being so awesome because honestly Arya just annoys me. 

I was underwhelmed by the two brothers fighting, just a lot of pointless brutality. It, like Jaime and Euron's fight, was not exciting or well choreographed in might opinion.

On to John Wick!!!!!! 

[Hiacios]

I was right! It was ash falling on KL in Dany's vision. 

[Luckylyn]

I was disappointed with Dany’s choice in this episode and think more development was needed to make her getting to this point feel less contrived.  Still she’s always had a ruthless streak and had unrealistic expectations about how the people of Westeros would respond to her efforts to claim the Iron Throne when from their perspective she’s a foreign conquerer. 

Dany was absolutely wrong to continue the attack after the surrender.  There was no justification for it.  I can see a road map to how she got here but I think more time was needed to better build up to this.

In the past Dany’s ruthlessness was directed at people we could argue deserved it which made the violence more understandable for the audience.  Now I wonder what if Dany had arrived in Westeros and someone like Margery who was loved by the people and would have treated them well was on the Iron Throne?  Would Dany have backed off?  I don’t think it mattered if who was on the throne was good or bad.  All that mattered was that they were an obstacle.  Getting the Throne was everything.   She thought she wanted to break the wheel but deep down she really wanted to control it. She was raised to believe her family’s birthright was destiny.  The idea that the people of Westeros might not welcome her was something that never occurred to her.  She has this certainty in her about what she’s entitled to and doesn’t have a back up plan for what else she could do with her life.  She has no coping mechanism for failing to achieve her goals.  Certainty is a hard thing to overcome for some people even when presented with situations that challenge their beliefs.  Dany’s birthright is her justification but Jon’s claim as her brother’s heir is the better one.  If birthright were all that mattered she would concede to Jon or suggest co-ruling.  It’s not just about birthright and entitlement.  It’s about power.    Dany has experienced being powerless and she’s experienced being the major power.  She can’t share it or step aside to concede to another.  Her whole journey has been building to this and she doesn’t know how to adapt to anything else.  

I felt the same way about when characters would say Cersei did horrible things for the sake of her children.  I never bought that excuse.  Cersei wanted power.  Because of the sexism of their society she was blocked from reaching a level she believed she deserved and intended to rule through her children.  She did petty dangerous things out of spite like empowering the sparrows to the point where they could target the royal family with impunity just because she resented Margery’s influence and popularity.   The fact that Margery’s influence was having a positive effect on the people’s attitude towards the crown and could have strengthened Tommen’s position did not matter to Cersei.  What mattered was she was being pushed out of the position of power behind the throne.  Cersei makes petty decisions that cause harsh blows to her enemies only to have horrific blow back on her make everything worse like killing Missandei instead of keeping her a hostage. 

 I’m okay with no person getting an up close kill of Cersei but think she should have died alone with the walls crumbling on her.  

[Zuleikha]

 One of his victims fought back and Dany burned her alive for it because, from Dany’s perspective, Mirri Maz Dur had wronged her.

Mirri Maz Dur killed Dany's husband and unborn child. Dany's perspective is reasonable. While Mirri Maz Dur's perspective is reasonable, too, and this was a nice example of some moral complexity, I don't think the fact that Dany got angry about this instead of seeing it as a good example of restorative justice is much of a signpost of the King's Landing massacre.

And that's exactly the problem. No one disputes that Dany has a cruel, vicisous streak and was always portrayed as having the seeds of eventual tyranny in her. But her previous fire and blood moments were always understandable. Here, D&D couldn't be bothered to properly set up the specific fire and blood moment they wanted in King's Landing, so it feels unearned and unnecessary.

I think fan reaction would be very different if Dany had burned down the Red Keep after Cersei packed it full of innocents and that was shown as the bridge too far for Tyrion, Jon, and Arya. But D&D wanted to be bigger without doing the character or narrative work to get there.

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

I’m okay with no person getting an up close kill of Cersei but think she should have died alone with the walls crumbling on her.  

I still think she should have burned, the exact death that she gave to thousands in that church.

[UNOSEZ]

2 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

This isn't true either. The number of non-mad Targaryen's vastly outnumber the number of mad ones. The whole flip a coin thing, is not meant to be taken literally. 

On the show I only know of 4 targs.. Maestro Aemon was awesome... The mad king was.. The mad king... Viserys was well Viserys and Dany.. That's a more than 50% clip of Bad Targs

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

Oh, absolutely. I am not asserting that there weren't plenty of canny conquerors who realized that NOT destroying an enemy city was generally easier and less costly (and helped to convince subsequent people into surrendering). And I fully agree that Genghis Khan would have used his dragon like a smart bomb. But he was a lot better at this than most people, Dany included. And there were plenty throughout history who would have used a dragon just the way she did if they could have.

This is what I mean by a seed of a good resolution being wasted by these writers. Jon is completely ignorant of the economics of a huge city, but Tyrion is very familiar, and has even alluded to it at times. Have Dany occasionally express her bloody desires with regard to KL, but have Tyrion respond with not just an ethical argument against it, but a hard headed practical argument. Have Tyrion educate Jon about the economic value of a million city residents, and their wider signifigance to Westeros. This process could have started last season.

Now think of a more organic way for Dany to develop genuine enmity towards the common people of KL, besides her being such a moron in getting her bff captured by Cersei. There are ways to do this. Let the conflict among the anti-Cersei forces build. Hell, maybe get rid of the Dany and Jon consumation. I know, I know, what a shocking lack of fan service that would be.

These writers have simply squandered a huge opportunity to do something special. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Bannon

[Umbelina]

I just don't see the episode telling us that Dany went "mad."

She did what Targs have always done to win Westeros.  She used her dragons.

She hoped, foolishly, to be welcomed with flowers and love and the kind of Mysha worship she loved.  Her brother drummed that into her from birth.  When that didn't happen, she used fear, fire, and blood.

Innocents die in wars, they always have, they always will.  By burning KL, I can see Dany realizing that burning that city to the ground would stop any future revolts in Westeros, and she would get them to "bend the knee" that way.

Wrong?  Yes.

More evil that others?  No.

Crazy?  Not yet.

[voiceover]

TFW you're watching a CGI dragon destroy an entire city in detail after being told it wasn’t in the budget for you to pet your wolf goodbye:

[VCRTracking]

[Law Mom]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

If KL's popularion exceeds 1 million, that means Westeros in normal times produces significant  food surpluses, because large cities can't exist without them. People dont move from rural to urban living in large numbers until they have a way to generate wealth in the city which exceeds their ability to do so in rural life. Paris didn't hit 1 million people until 1835.

The reason why KL has 1 million people is because they have figured out a way to generate wealth. They have more value alive.

I vaguely recall someone (don't remember who or what ep or even the context, sorry) saying that people move to KL despite it being a shithole because that's where the jobs are.

[Absurda]

Re: Cersei and Jamie. 

I'm pretty meh on their end.  To me, a satisfying ending for Cersei would have been Dany (after the bells rang) calling out for them to bring her Cersei then having all of KL and even her own Lannister men fighting to get to the Red Keep to get her and take her to Dany.  Not just dying alone and defeated but alone, defeated and with everyone turned against her.

For Jamie, I would have been okay with him staying in the north with Brieanne.  A completion of his arc rather than him coming full circle back to Cersei.  Of course, then we would have missed his goodbye scene with Tyrion, which I thought was wonderful.

[Wulfsige]

Next week - Dany enters and approaches the iron Throne, which is now a twisted pile of smoldering-hot iron. A blade crumbles off and falls to the floor.

Dany: Mine! Mine! I want it! It's mine! She sits on it. Owie-ouchy! Good thing my ass is fire-retardant, haha. Anyway - finally! My manifest destiny! Success! Okay, now where are my subjects?... Varys?...oh...right. Killed him. Fat bastard said I was nucking futz....Tyrion?...okay. Killed him, too. Another blade crumbles off the throne. The little shithead was supposed to say I was a Glorious Dragon Mother, not a gory damned monster. Yeah, that was the same time I chargrilled Jon or whatever he called himself. Gods, I hate family members who refuse to have sex with you.  A burnt ribcage falls to the floor. Don't need them. My adoring subjects love me! Me! Me! Now who will fetch my triple venti soy no-foam latte? A blackened leg bone dangles from the ceiling. Oh. Right. Wind blows through the throne room doors. Gods I hope I didn't torch Starbucks...fuck. I did, didn't I? The last blade crumbles off the Iron Throne. This is all Sansa's fault.

[Daisy]

4 hours ago, terrymct said:

I was hoping Jaime would kill Cersei and complete his redemption arc, but this is better in a range of ways.  Jaime had a chance at redemption, could have stayed at Winterfell, but couldn't or wouldn't get past his toxic and evil relationship with his twin sister.  He started out this series as an evil character, worked his way up to neutral verging on good, then chose to fall back to his old ways.  That's a form of tragedy.

*cue Kelly Clarkson's Addicted*. 

Jaime's story was never an arc - I think it was a circle. (well no it is a circle). 
We know that this twisted sick love affair started basically. from the age of 12-13? with them. I can't remember exactly and they are like what 40+? now that's basically a life time being in love with someone, not to mention a twin bond. And he tried. but he didn't want to have his twin  - and the woman he also loved (as I feel he loved Brienne too) die like that - and die alone. and I also feel it was the twin-sibling bit - not just the incest bit that made him go back. Just like Tyrion will always try to help/save Cersei even though she hates him. and even though every chance Cersei had to kill Tyrion she couldn't do it. 

very tragic indeed. 

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Sometimes, but not always.

In Westeros though, no other cities WOULD go against Dany after this.  Not for a long long time.  History might expose her as a monster, or it might not, but either way, she ended all wars for control of Westeros with this one move.

That’s like saying the Japanese ended all resistance in the Pacific through their knockout punch at Pearl Harbor. Or that Tarkin ended all resistance to the Empire forever by destroying Alderaan.

Sometimes committing an atrocity, particularly one this extreme, just makes people resist harder. Particularly when they think Dany’s going to kill them anyway (see Tyrion, Jon, Sansa and anyone in proximity or who was ever allied with them).

One of the reasons in war throughout history that armies honored surrenders was because giving your enemy a way out makes them far more likely to do so once it’s clear victory can’t be achieved and this protects your own side from the casualties they’d take in having to wipe the enemy out to the last man by offering them no quarter.

Dany just ensured that a lot of people are going to resist her to the death (costing her men and material) and for others that cooperation will only come at the end of a spear (requiring her to spread her forces thin). Her dragon can only be in one place at a time (her enemies only strike where the dragon isn’t and if she retaliates on innocents she just encourages more people to feel they have nothing to lose.

Assymetric warfare by people who feel they’ve got nothing to lose is a bitch when the main tools in your arsenal are an irreplaceable city-leveling beast and the fear it instills.

Yeah, she destroyed those Scorpions, but unlike her dragon, it’s possible to build more and one good shot from ambush is all you need to remove the key to her reign of terror. Or you poison it’s food.-

One lucky knife-strike or arrow or successful poisoning by someone with nothing to lose and everything to gain by Dany’s death is all it would take too... her armies lose control of the dragon.

Welcome to the land of the paranoid tyrant like Saddam Hussien, Ghadaffi or Kim Jun Un. Constantly on the move with decoys, food tasters and regular purges of the leadership lest they get enough influence to betray you.sleeping in a different bed (or even, according to some accounts, occasionally on the street) every night and constantly altering her schedule lest all the people willing to end her reign of terror find and end her.

Dany thinks fear is the best motivator and it can be, to a point, but history has proven that when all you have is fear and nothing else... it’s just a matter of time.

[UNOSEZ]

I think Arya will end up on the throne... She's got her revenge.. She got some learning from Tywin.. Its possible she'll be the person who killed the night king and the dragon queen.. She tried ( and failed)  to save the common folk but did get them to follow her.. And again.. Jon doesn't want it... 

[ShellsandCheese]

Just now, UNOSEZ said:

I think Arya will end up on the throne... She's got her revenge.. She got some learning from Tywin.. Its possible she'll be the person who killed the night king and the dragon queen.. She tried ( and failed)  to save the common folk but did get them to follow her.. And again.. Jon doesn't want it... 

Please, no. LOL. The same Arya who fed a man his sons and wiped out an entire family. That would be a disaster. 

[steelyis]

4 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

That’s like saying the Japanese ended all resistance in the Pacific through their knockout punch at Pearl Harbor. Or that Tarkin ended all resistance to the Empire forever by destroying Alderaan.

Sometimes committing an atrocity, particularly one this extreme, just makes people resist harder. Particularly when they think Dany’s going to kill them anyway (see Tyrion, Jon, Sansa and anyone in proximity or who was ever allied with them).

One of the reasons in war throughout history that armies honored surrenders was because giving your enemy a way out makes them far more likely to do so once it’s clear victory can’t be achieved and this protects your own side from the casualties they’d take in having to wipe the enemy out to the last man by offering them no quarter.

Dany just ensured that a lot of people are going to resist her to the death (costing her men and material) and for others that cooperation will only come at the end of a spear (requiring her to spread her forces thin). Her dragon can only be in one place at a time (her enemies only strike where the dragon isn’t and if she retaliates on innocents she just encourages more people to feel they have nothing to lose.

Assymetric warfare by people who feel they’ve got nothing to lose is a bitch when the main tools in your arsenal are an irreplaceable city-leveling beast and the fear it instills.

Yeah, she destroyed those Scorpions, but unlike her dragon, it’s possible to build more and one good shot from ambush is all you need to remove the key to her reign of terror. Or you poison it’s food.-

One lucky knife-strike or arrow or successful poisoning by someone with nothing to lose and everything to gain by Dany’s death is all it would take too... her armies lose control of the dragon.

Welcome to the land of the paranoid tyrant like Saddam Hussien, Ghadaffi or Kim Jun Un. Constantly on the move with decoys, food tasters and regular purges of the leadership lest they get enough influence to betray you.sleeping in a different bed (or even, according to some accounts, occasionally on the street) every night and constantly altering her schedule lest all the people willing to end her reign of terror find and end her.

Dany thinks fear is the best motivator and it can be, to a point, but history has proven that when all you have is fear and nothing else... it’s just a matter of time.

This. Post. Right. Here!

[ulkis]

47 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

I’m okay with no person getting an up close kill of Cersei but think she should have died alone with the walls crumbling on her.  

He should have been like, I laid with Brienne but it meant nothing! And then have her do a double take and THEN the walls come down, heh.

[catrice2]

This sis my thing...murder is murder even if you kill one or thousands....no matter how bad the person.  How many of these people haven't murdered someone in the name of "justice," and without trial or jury?  I haven't even been watching that long and my guess would be quite a few of them. 

So now someone who makes a revenge list and coldly sets out to murder people is a hero? There are no heroes here.  I also take exception to people going on about Arya having PTSD. My guess is that ALL of these characters would have some form of that and act accordingly. 

Please do not let Brianne be preganant!

[UNOSEZ]

6 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

This sis my thing...murder is murder even if you kill one or thousands....no matter how bad the person.  How many of these people haven't murdered someone in the name of "justice," and without trial or jury?  I haven't even been watching that long and my guess would be quite a few of them. 

So now someone who makes a revenge list and coldly sets out to murder people is a hero? There are no heroes here.  I also take exception to people going on about Arya having PTSD. My guess is that ALL of these characters would have some form of that and act accordingly. 

Please do not let Brianne be preganant!

If Arya kills Dany then to the ppl of westeros.. She is a hero... Her wiping out the Frey's would be seen as justice for the red wedding... And I'm sorry but killing meryn trant or polliver isn't the same as fire-bombing a city... Even what she did the the Male Freys who took part in the red wedding isn't the same as Dany crucifying 163 masters who may or may not have had anything to do with the crucified kids.. As for the PTSD.. Everybody is screwed.. That said she was the youngest to see some really horrible stuff... But I don't have any excuses... 

[Token]

There are so many things I want to say about this episode, but I'll stick to just two:

1. All I wanted was for Jamie to kill Cersei.  Was that too much to ask?  She's awful, just kill her.  And he couldn't even do that.

2. WTF has happened to this show?  The first two episodes this season were so good.  I had such high hopes.  And then it all just went to shit.  WTF show??!!!!?

[SueB]

Questions that this leaves:
- Dany betrayed Jon & Tyrion by destroying the city rather than accepting surrender. Tyrion betrayed Dany by letting Jamie go.  Dany apparently blames Jon for 'forcing' her to choose "fear" over love.  Somehow I don't see hi-fives around a large volume of wine at an afterparty.  So... do Tyrion & Jon just find Dany afterwords or do they decide that they are 'next' on the menu?  Does she know Davos provided the boat?
- How many soldiers survived?  Dany has Drogo, but she still needs an army to cement her role as Queen.    
- Does Dany have money?
In short, if Dany DID pre-plan to raze KL, did she prepare for the aftermath?

[Umbelina]

29 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

That’s like saying the Japanese ended all resistance in the Pacific through their knockout punch at Pearl Harbor. Or that Tarkin ended all resistance to the Empire forever by destroying Alderaan.

No, not really.  The attack on pearl harbor was military attacking military, not targeting civilians.

People have often called Dany's Dragons her nukes, for a reason.  She attacked civilians with Drogon, after the Bells (surrender) was in the bag.

Many civilians have died in many wars, have been targeted specifically, war is horrible.  Period.

17 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Please do not let Brianne be preganant!

Oh, I'd love to see a little Jaime/Brienne!  Ha.

[SueB]

On another note, given the heavy 'anti-war' theme that has been going on - having some character we know be the 'eyewitness' to the destruction of the innocents makes sense.  And not a person engaged in the battle but someone swept up with civilians.  

So Arya makes sense.  But I was wondering 'who else' and I can't really come up with anyone else.  Any other non-combatant types were wisely staying the hell away from KL or were already dead.  Arya, with her murder mission, going INTO the battle was also someone who could take care of herself but was no match for mass hysteria and dragon fire.  The Hound had CLEAGANBOWL to finish.  

Plus Arya is plucky and has plot-armor as a main character.  

So, I like the choice although I can see how some feel like that REALLY ups Arya's profile in the series in the two big battle episodes.  

It'll be interesting to see her role in the finale.  

[Cheezwiz]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Honestly, its so bizarre to me, because D and D could have basically had anything they wanted for this show. They could have had more season, they could have had a full ten episodes this season, its one of the most popular shows on television, they could have had times to do this better. Instead, they decided to do this short season to wrap up a billion stories and characters, so everything just seems rushed and half assed, even its main characters and how their journeys end. It honestly feels like a show that got unexpectedly cancelled or had a main cast member leave or die or be involved in a scandal and written out, and they had to wrap everything up super quickly, even if it didnt totally make sense, just to have it done by the time the show ends. When that happens, I can cut shows some slack. But with this, this was their CHOICE. They choose to rush everything, and its now coming off as super rushed, all because they took a story that should have had tons of time to develop, if this is really what was supposed to happen, and gave us the cliffnotes.

A thousand times THIS! I keep saying that it feels like they are trying to cram 30 pounds of plot into a 10 pound bag. Everything feels like cheap corner-cutting. They are also denying the audience moments of much needed catharsis. I'm not saying those moments have to follow the expected cliche path, but they need to be there and they're not, so it's frustrating. There's a big difference between  surprise plot twists, and sudden  illogical behavior. I'm so glad I binged the entire series last month, and didn't devote 8 years of my life to watching it. I'd be very disappointed if I had.

Does anyone know why this season was limited to only six episodes? Was it financial constraints from HBO, or are the showrunners just sick of it? Are they chronically drunk? I don't understand.

[TaurusRose]

13 hours ago, RealReality said:

I think varys point was that having Dany and Jon co-rule could only work if Jon was willing to go toe to toe with Dany over what's right.  To temper her worst instincts.  But Jons love for Dany made him too weak to truly stand up to her, therefore they would never "co-rule" it would just be Dany ruling.  Which varys thought was dangerous.

To me, this is a case of someone seeing part of the picture and drawing conclusions that aren't necessarily correct.  I think Varys thought Jon was still in the throes of romantic love with Daenerys and that would make him weak against her.  Varys didn't know that Jon's affections towards Dany had changed and Jon was in the middle of a conflict between what honor dictated and what was beginning to concern him.  Varys got that wrong.  

Edited May 14, 2019 by taurusrose

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

Does anyone know why this season was limited to only six episodes? Was it financial constraints from HBO, or are the showrunners just sick of it? Are they chronically drunk? I don't understand.

Because D&D were over it, and didn't want to hand it off to anyone else.

HBO would have financed 10 seasons if they wanted them, they in no way limited them to 8 episodes or told them to make this the final season.

All showrunners.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Umbelina
typo

[laprin]

14 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

There are almost certainly massive penalties if GRRM deviates substantially from the information he has provided to D&D and HBO. The penalty for revealing the winner of a competitive reality or game show can be anywhere from $1 million to $10 million depending on the viewership of the show. There's no way that there isn't a liquidated damages provision in GRRM's contract north of $10 million.

This is not a competitive reality show. HBO bought the rights to books already written. GRRM clearly did not owe them any consideration on future works or he would have finished the books. I doubt he would be stupid enough to give up creative rights on future works, especially for only $10 million. He can earn that as an advance alone on future books. I’m sure D&D asked for some advice because as we now know, their writing talent does not come close to GRRM.  

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I just don't buy that Daenerys would think that way.  She had strong sense of justice (too strong perhaps at times) and protected the innocent.  I don't see how she could see a bunch of women and children as her enemies or think that slaughtering them served the greater good.

I could understand if she convinced herself that if she needed to kill hundreds of thousands to take KL, it would be for the greater good, as her reign would save many more lives.   But, once the battle was won, I can't see the Daenrys we've known intentionally slaughtering innocents.   

Dany explained exactly how this was justice. She had to kill people now to make sure that they were free from tyrants later. These people had enabled Cersei and obviously didn't get it. So burning it all was necessary to serve the greater good. She wasn't slaughtering innocents, she doing what she had to do to get total control (in her mind). They didn't understand her love so she used fear.

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Go ahead. Tell me why she deserved to die if Dany was truly the Breaker of Chains and truly cared for those oppressed instead of as means to an end? She may remove the physical chains, but the yolk of fear and terror has always been her hallmark.

Yes, she loved the common folk when she thought they loved her.

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

This is what I mean by a seed of a good resolution being wasted by these writers. Jon is completely ignorant of the economics of a huge city, but Tyrion is very familiar, and has even alluded to it at times. Have Dany occasionally express her bloody desires with regard to KL, but have Tyrion respond with not just an ethical argument against it, but a hard headed practical argument. Have Tyrion educate Jon about the economic value of a million city residents, and their wider signifigance to Westeros. This process could have started last season.

As someone else said elsewhere, you can see the GRRM really likes the smart characters and schemers but the showrunners don't. They're more into big heroic moments but they can't really write the scheming political stuff. So we get Varys executed by Dany yes, which made sense and was cool the way Drogon came out of the dark at him, but what Varys himself did made *no* sense. He basically announces he's going to go against Dany now even though Tyrion's obviously not in his corner about it. Then he starts sending off letters willy-nilly.

[UNOSEZ]

Dany should name grey worm her heir and let him go back to Mereen to rule the ppl well and get it outta the hands of Daario who I'm sure is still not really caring about the ppl of Mereen 

[Absurda]

Quote

As someone else said elsewhere, you can see the GRRM really likes the smart characters and schemers but the showrunners don't. They're more into big heroic moments but they can't really write the scheming political stuff.

Yeah, I can totally see this.  That would explain why all the clever schemers suddenly became astoundingly stupid.  I may watch another D&D show if it's a mindless action/adventure type thing, they do effects really well, but definitely not anything involving complex, nuanced characters and plots.  At least, not if I can help it, I usually don't pay much attention to who is running a show unless it's really good or really bad.

[Raachel2008]

30 minutes ago, SueB said:

So Arya makes sense.  But I was wondering 'who else' and I can't really come up with anyone else.  Any other non-combatant types were wisely staying the hell away from KL or were already dead.  Arya, with her murder mission, going INTO the battle was also someone who could take care of herself but was no match for mass hysteria and dragon fire.  The Hound had CLEAGANBOWL to finish.  

Davos, not only because Liam Cunningham would have knocked if out of the park, but because it would have showed that even seasoned people we’re horrified by it all.

[MissL]

14 hours ago, mxc90 said:

Did anyone think Greyworm was going to attempt to assassinate Jon on orders from Dany (by the way he turned and looked at him)?

Yes! That is exactly what I thought in that moment. 

I even sat with my mouth open for a moment and said “nooo” out loud. To an empty room.

[Potanical Pardon]

So like Ellaria and Silent Sister? Not that their previous circumstances were that great.

Has anyone checked up on Edmure?

[Stella]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

Assymetric warfare by people who feel they’ve got nothing to lose is a bitch when the main tools in your arsenal are an irreplaceable city-leveling beast and the fear it instills.

I know this isn't exactly the same but it does bring to mind the US involvement in Vietnam. Just watch Ken Burns documentary The Vietnam War and the parallels are clear. And everyone knows GRRM received CO status during this war. People in his generation were profoundly influenced by it. Especially those in opposition. The Vietnamese people resisted   a bitch with far superior military might and won. Westerosi could do something similar although I feel confident Dany will be taken out far sooner than in a guerrilla type war. But it does shed some light on his ideas and authorial positions. 

[hypnotoad]

Quote

Then, Westeros becomes democratic.  Or possibly Jon gives each of the 7 territories independence, and we’ll get 7 kingdoms. 

And then Dany will have, in a round about way, actually broken the wheel right?

Hey I am just trying for something positive in this messily written season.

I will say after sleeping on it, I have become quite zen. We have watched a really beautiful. well shot show for all these years. It is ambitious and BIG. The music is terrific. It had a cast of 1000's and managed for the most part to tell a good tale. I don't think I will ever see something quite like this again. I certainly am not likely to watch a dragon take down an entire city on a tv show!

The actors really sold all of this no matter how bad the writing got at the end. The cast had great chemistry.

I will miss the dragons and direwolves.

And I say this as someone who has never read fantasy books (these were the first and likely last)  or watched fantasy type tv shows or movies.

Edited May 14, 2019 by hypnotoad

[ShellsandCheese]

3 minutes ago, hypnotoad said:

And then Dany will have, in a round about way, actually broken the wheel right?

Hey I am just trying for something positive in this messily written season.

I will say after sleeping on it, I have become quite zen. We have watched a really beautiful. well shot show for all these years. It is ambitious and BIG. The music is terrific. It had a cast of 1000's and managed for the most part to tell a good tale. I don't think I will ever see something quite like this again. I certainly am not likely to watch a dragon take down an entire city on a tv show!

The actors really sold all of this no matter how bad the writing got at the end. The cast had great chemistry.

I will miss the dragons and direwolves.

And it will spawn enough fanfic to last a thousand years 😂

[Coxfires]

41 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Davos, not only because Liam Cunningham would have knocked if out of the park, but because it would have showed that even seasoned people we’re horrified by it all.

I was about to say Davos too.  As an ex commoner, he would definitely get revulsed by Dany's action. On the same line, Gendry would also have fitted (He specifically told Davos "us common folk are just pawns to you highborns" back in s3 in their dialogue scence) but apparently he was nursing his heartbreak north or in the stormlands.

[SueB]

Davos & Gendry are good choices.  Davos felt like more a part of the Battle and less likely to get swept up.  I honestly don't know why Gendry wasn't there.

[Snowball II]

2 hours ago, Daisy said:

*cue Kelly Clarkson's Addicted*. 

Jaime's story was never an arc - I think it was a circle. (well no it is a circle). 
We know that this twisted sick love affair started basically. from the age of 12-13? with them. I can't remember exactly and they are like what 40+? now that's basically a life time being in love with someone, not to mention a twin bond. And he tried. but he didn't want to have his twin  - and the woman he also loved (as I feel he loved Brienne too) die like that - and die alone. and I also feel it was the twin-sibling bit - not just the incest bit that made him go back. Just like Tyrion will always try to help/save Cersei even though she hates him. and even though every chance Cersei had to kill Tyrion she couldn't do it. 

very tragic indeed. 

Yup.  I don't think Jaime could ever live without Cersei, even without the incestuous relationship.  The bond between twins can run deep.

Random thought on this subject: I think there is an extra bit of tragedy in Cersei and Jaime dying by trying to do what Ned advised Cersei to do way back in season one: take Jaime, take the kids, sail to Pentos, and never come back.  How many lives would have been saved if they had just done that? 

Well, they made their choice, and they lived- and died- by it.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Fiver

[Daisy]

15 minutes ago, Fiver said:

Yup.  I don't think Jaime could ever live without Cersei, even without the incestuous relationship.  The bond between twins can run deep.

Random thought on this subject: I think there is an extra bit of tragedy in Cersei and Jaime dying by trying to do what Ned advised Cersei to do way back in season one: take Jaime, take the kids, sail to Pentos, and never come back.  How many lives would have been saved if they had just done that? 

Well, they made their choice, and they lived- and died- by it.

"When you play the game of thrones, you win, or you die." Cersei season 1. 
and she dies.. by having the gameboard crush her to death. 

[RealReality]

5 hours ago, Couver said:

The show didn't present the Tarlys as honorable though. I suppose some wiggle room is there for viewers interpret them in our own way.

But they betrayed Olenna who they had sworn oaths to. Randall did it purely to get Highgarden in the bargain. His betrayal lead to a lot of dead Tyrells.

And both were given a choice between life and death.

Again I suppose the method of execution is the issue here. To me the dragon fire is no different than Ned or Robb behading people who disobeyed them. It's certainly not the level of torture Cersei inflicted on people like Ellaria and Septa Unella. That is prolonged suffering. Dragon fire seems to have it over and done with in seconds.

They did present the tarlys as honorable to me.  Randal tarly could have changed allegiances and survived.  He did not.  He chose cersei and accepted death for his decision.  Dickons could have been quiet and taken over house tarly, but chose to stand by his father. 

These, to me, are honorable choices.  Knowing you face a certain death but sticking by your allegiance is honorable. 

Either or both could have just lied and continued plotting or waiting for an opportunity to turn against Dany after bending the knee to her.  They didn't.

Dragonfire is a very different form of execution then a beheading.  Swinging the sword yourself versus having a proxy dragon do it shows that you are willing to do something you don't want to do for an important purpose.

It also allows a person a quick and easy dispatch that burning people alive does not allow.  In history, people being burned alive was a way to warn others because it was a grisly death.  Beheading was considered too quick, easy and painless and was saved for royalty. *

I cannot imagine the tarlys we're running around screaming even for 10 seconds because it was so quick and painless.  But Dany chose the meanest way possible to execute them.  And a method if execution that allowed someone else to do the job for her.  Bad form.

And yeah, cersei chose to torture the people responsible for killing her daughter.  Dany chose a gruesome execution for men who chose allegiance to another leader.  Those are two different situations.

* History is littered with stories of beheadings that went long and wrong, but done correctly, a beheading is v. v fast and painless.   

Edited May 14, 2019 by RealReality

[Absurda]

Dany doesn't wield a sword, though.  She wields a dragon.  A beheading by sword can also go bad and be pretty painful and gruesome if not done right (ask Mary, Queen of Scots).  Dany would botch up a beheading by sword and I think people would object if she went around practicing.  ;  )

She could either have an executioner do it for her or have her dragon do it.  She sees the dragons as her children so they are extensions of herself.  Having Drogon dracarys them is the closest she'd get to doing the deed with her own hands.

[RealReality]

12 minutes ago, Absurda said:

Dany doesn't wield a sword, though.  She wields a dragon.  A beheading by sword can also go bad and be pretty painful and gruesome if not done right (ask Mary, Queen of Scots).  Dany would botch up a beheading by sword and I think people would object if she went around practicing.  ;  )

She could either have an executioner do it for her or have her dragon do it.  She sees the dragons as her children so they are extensions of herself.  Having Drogon dracarys them is the closest she'd get to doing the deed with her own hands.

Can't agree with that.  Dragons aren't the same, by any measure as wielding the sword and doing it yourself.  

Yes beheadings CAN go wrong, but assuming they go off as they should, they are quick and painless.  Taking a life with your own hands means something that getting a proxy dragon to do doesn't.

Part of the reason people respect Jon is because he can and did put himself in the trenches with the people.  Dany kinda has, but she has generally been far removed on top of a dragon.  Jon would swing the sword.  

It's not a death knell for a leader, but I think it means you have to try harder to gain the love and respect of the people.

Edited May 14, 2019 by RealReality

[VCRTracking]

[LittleIggy]

Something I pondered: If you were a civilian who lived in King’s Landing, why wouldn’t you evacuate the city as soon as you heard it was the focus of an attack instead of going deeper into the city? This assumes you could leave before the allies arrived.

[RealReality]

1 minute ago, LittleIggy said:

Something I pondered: If you were a civilian who lived in King’s Landing, why wouldn’t you evacuate the city as soon as you heard it was the focus of an attack instead of going deeper into the city? This assumes you could leave before the allies arrived.

I'm imagining that city folk had been told that they would be protected because the scorpions would protect them from the dragons before they ever got to the city.

[Daisy]

31 minutes ago, RealReality said:

They did present the tarlys as honorable to me.  Randal tarly could have changed allegiances and survived.  He did not.  He chose cersei and accepted death for his decision.  Dickons could have been quiet and taken over house tarly, but chose to stand by his father. 

These, to me, are honorable choices.  Knowing you face a certain death but sticking by your allegiance is honorable. 

Either or both could have just lied and continued plotting or waiting for an opportunity to turn against Dany after bending the knee to her.  They didn't.

Dragonfire is a very different form of execution then a beheading.  Swinging the sword yourself versus having a proxy dragon do it shows that you are willing to do something you don't want to do for an important purpose.

It also allows a person a quick and easy dispatch that burning people alive does not allow.  In history, people being burned alive was a way to warn others because it was a grisly death.  Beheading was considered too quick, easy and painless and was saved for royalty. *

I cannot imagine the tarlys we're running around screaming even for 10 seconds because it was so quick and painless.  But Dany chose the meanest way possible to execute them.  And a method if execution that allowed someone else to do the job for her.  Bad form.

And yeah, cersei chose to torture the people responsible for killing her daughter.  Dany chose a gruesome execution for men who chose allegiance to another leader.  Those are two different situations.

* History is littered with stories of beheadings that went long and wrong, but done correctly, a beheading is v. v fast and painless.   

one can even argue - yes he betrayed the Tyrells by going against them - but let's be dead honest, The Tyrells were trying to go against the throne for ever. Olenna (by that time) basically went "peace out, homies." and went to go with Dany because she wanted what happened on Sunday to happen years earlier once Cersei blew up the sept. 

Jaime/Cersei reminded them to be honour-bound to the throne and in doing so - he gets HIghgarden/Warden of the South - which basically Olenna "gave up" when she betrayed KL.  The Tarlys therefore - while doing it for more selfish reasons (Highgarden) was still doing it to the queen they recognized. not the woman who claimed she had a right).