S38.E07: There’s Always a Twist

[mikewho]

4 minutes ago, treeofdreams said:

I find myself unable to sort out what happened with the vote last night.  Who initially banded with who, who was each group planning to vote out, what changed, who ended up voting for who.  Can some kindly soul spell it out so us strategy-challenged folk can understand?

I'm with you on that one. This whole season I've been, 'Who's on First? Who's aligned with who? Huh? How did that change?' etc.

And a lot of 'Who are these people?'

That TC where everyone was running around, whispering in each other's ears, sure didn't help any. Then BOOM! somebody was voted out.

I just saw a guy on the show last night I swear I haven't seen before. 

[green]

19 hours ago, green said:

Weird.  Something just re-posted and trapped my cursor in this box.  Just ignore.

Edited March 28, 2019 by green

[EllenB]

3 hours ago, Kenzie said:

Yes, her "pissed, congratulations!, pissed" look would make a good gif.

She may have just been too exhausted to arrange her face to nicey-nicey.  She's the one who's been sick, too, so I think it's amazing she lasted so long in that challenge 

[peachmangosteen]

3 hours ago, Nashville said:

Frankly, I don’t think there is a formal leader of the group at present; Ron likes to style himself as one in his THs, but it appeared to me that both Victoria and Julie were driving the group conversations more than Ron.  Right now I think they’re still mainly operating on a consensus basis.

I agree with this. And honestly, that kind of thing should be interesting and it does make it less predictable how it would suss out if the Kama 6 become the F6, but the people that make up the Kama 6 are boring as hell and several of them are arrogant and smug, so it just sucks watching them imo.

I think the main reason this season sucks is because the cast sucks. EoE makes the game so stagnant, but that could maybe be mitigated if there were more interesting and/or fun people making interesting and dynamic moves.

I can't at Manu/Lesu turning on each other. Idiots. Now we're going to have to watch the Kama 6 boringly run the game all season because you dumbasses decided to do nothing. Thanks a lot!

I actually finally enjoyed Joe in this ep. He was being such a little bitch and I found it hilarious.

I really hope Julie's "It's immoral to vote out Rick" was just bullshit posturing because I wanna like her, but I think she was being serious. Oh, Julie. Victoria, on the other hand, was 100% bullshitting with that. I wanna like Victoria because she seems like a bitch and I love a fun Survivor bitch, but she mostly just annoys me. Maybe it is the hat.

Personally there wasn't enough Wardog in this ep for me. He cracks me up. I enjoyed the dumbfounded look on his face when Joe was voted out.

I'd rather Chris made it back because he's pretty, but honestly we'll probably see more of him on EoE anyway. I think Rick is probably the only member of EoE that has a real chance of getting far in the game through something other than challenge wins, so at least maybe his return could be interesting. Him apologizing to Chris for winning was really cute.

If everyone that doesn't leave EoE is on the jury and if no one else leaves then the jury will be 13 people. LOL the reunion will be like 5 minutes this season because the jury roundtable will eat up so much time with that many people in it. Although they'll probably edit out the comments of most of the players anyway.

Edited March 28, 2019 by peachmangosteen

[eel2178]

21 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

I’m not liking this continuous EOE twist. When some one is voted out it’s like no, not really they could come back. Then these voted off people get to be on the jury too. So at the end are there going to be a lot of people on the jury?  I rolled my eyes so hard I got a headache when Jeff announced the losers of the first challenge were still in the game. Come on! 

So now everyone will still know who is on the other island based on who shows up in the jury at tribal council?

[LanceM]

I think the cast is fine, some duds for sure, but there some standout characters as well. They are not letting them shine though because the problem is Extiction Island.  By constantly going there they are taking away time that would be better spent getting to know the actual people in the game. The fact that they swapped to 3 tribes and continued having reward challenges as well as checking on IOE made it even worse. I have no idea what they were thinking there.

As far as the Kama 6 goes there is a reason they think they are good players and it because they kind of are good players. Or more specifcically certain members of the Kama 6 have shown they are good players.  I mean we just have to look at the Aubry boot and what they pulled last night for proof of that. Yes they have benefited from not having to go to tribal because of Joe. So what? Luck had always been a big part of Survivor including what tribe you were lucky enough to land on in the beginning.  Sandra Diaz Twine has won the game twice but had she not hap Rupert on her tribe on Pearl Islands she probably gets voted out pre-merge and would quickly be forgotten.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Eolivet said:

Agree to disagree, but I don't see it that way. Your torch is snuffed. You have been voted out. They don't make everyone go to Edge of Extinction, you have a choice. An equal choice, it's not even like the Edge of Extinction is in big neon letters and the "if you go here, your adventure will end" is a tiny sign. If everyone had to go to Edge of Extinction, and you could raise your sail if you wanted to leave, then yes -- you quit.

Contrast Edge of Extinction to Redemption Island. If someone said "I don't want to go to Redemption Island," that would be quitting, because when you were voted out, you went to Redemption Island. It was mandatory. You had no choice.

By that definition, people who choose not to go to Edge of Extinction are quitters, and I don't believe that, because Edge of Extinction is a choice. Leaving Edge of Extinction is making a different choice -- the choice you were offered originally. But it's not quitting.

If Probst wants to spin people who leave Edge of Extinction as quitting, then make it mandatory -- like Redemption Island. But as long as you have a choice, I don't believe opting for the other choice is quitting

Personally, I think it is a distinction without a difference.  

While it is not normally put in front of them, every castaway has the option to quit at any time, in every season.

Redemption Island and Exile Island weren't much different than EOE, except

1) The other players knew they existed.

2) The option of quitting rather than going there wasn't on a signpost, though it still existed.

As I said before, I think the fact that the option was explicitly offered takes away some of the stigma of quitting, but not all of it.

In my book, Keith and Wendy are not on the same low level as quitters like Na'Onka and Purple Kelly, but they also don't deserve the same respect as castaways who stayed in the game until they had no other choice.

When I think of players who protested and wept when being involuntarily medevaced, I can't help but look down on what Keith and Wendy chose to do.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

I disagree that she had no chance of returning.  She nearly won the competition.  She even says in the EW article that she would have gotten back in with Kama if she had made it.  I think she could have gone far. 

I agree with your disagreement! It's always a mistake to think you have no chance at the challenges, just like it's a mistake for someone like Joe to count on winning.  What if it's one of those, "Stack up something until you reach a certain spot," challenges?  The gung ho, speedy types usually start out strong until all their stacks fall down and the hesitant plodders end up winning.  Keith could win!

[Bryce Lynch]

31 minutes ago, eel2178 said:

So now everyone will still know who is on the other island based on who shows up in the jury at tribal council?

Good point.  I think the mystery of the players in camp not knowing who was left on EOE would have made for more interesting strategy and better TV than having the EOE people watching TC.

Or how about have the EOErs listen in on TC from behind a screen so the others would not know who was there?

[iMonrey]

Quote

Speaking of dumb, Joe is probably one of the worst of the players who have returned multiple times.  His strategic game is as abysmal as ever.  I don't think he's particularly bright and he makes zero effort to try and work the vote.  He just thinks he needs to win immunity and hope people don't vote for him.  There's a particular arrogance in the way he said at tribal that he was concerned because "I'm one of the strongest players".  If he means in challenges, well yes.  But mentally, there isn't a lot going on upstairs.

His social game is shit. He has never, ever found an ally in all the times he's played. You'd think somebody would want to partner with such a strong physical threat who could carry them through to the end but nope! I just don't think anyone can stand him. Either that or they try to work something out with him and he's so thick-headed they can't get anywhere with him.

[HahYallDoin]

7 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Reem hates Chris because he was one of the 7 people (including her buddy Keith) who were part of the plan to vote her out first.  Wendy was the only one who didn't vote her her or for Wendy are the backup plan in case of an idol.   But, she hate Chris the most for some reason.  

Reem also jumped down Chris’ throat last week after he made the comment ‘you just gave it to him?’ He said it after she shared with the EOE group that she saw the box containing the knot disadvantage floating in the water while she was out searching the area and asked out loud ‘what is that?,’ at which point Krazy Keith grabbed it and claimed it as his own. 

Chris meant it in an exasperated ‘Damn, the one person we didn’t want to get an advantage after the crap he pulled last week by heading out to find the advantages alone instead of a group like we agreed upon’ fashion.

Reem, BIG SURPRISE, took it the wrong way and they had an intense verbal altercation that made Aubrey wonder ‘WTF is with these people?’ in a confessional following it. 

Krazy Keith didn’t like Chris already(Chris voted for KK at TC) and may well have played it against him anyway but don’t you know ‘Mommy Dearest’ was in his ear constantly urging him to?!?! 

No question Chris thought she was a dumbass to 1. say it out loud in front of KK and 2. not argue with KK that it was hers and to hand it over but that’s not what he said. Reem was, per usual, pissy and most likely felt like a dumbass and since it’s always someone else’s fault, she took it out on Chris. 

[millennium]

23 hours ago, Caseysgirl said:

Joe looked like a good looking Pirate of the Caribbean with his thick mane of hair and the red bandana.

Do they go to a stylist before Tribal, because I call bullshit on Joe's bandana-hair combo.   He seems like an okay guy.   I just can't imagine he's so self-adoring that he went to the trouble of getting all gussied up before the vote.

I don't like Aubrey, but I respected her authenticity.   She was the antithesis of Joe's hair.

Many of the women are wearing shell necklaces.  I'm wondering if Etsy Julie made them.

Good.  Riddance.  Keith.   In your Survivor cast profile, you wrote:

Quote

I know I can be the Sole Survivor because I've already been living against the odds. Me being a lower-class black man, I wasn't nurtured to be the salutatorian of his class that would be able to afford Duke University of all places. I didn't have the bloodline of doctors to show me how to succeed or the finances to take prep classes for educational opportunities. I didn't even know what class rank or GPA meant until junior year.

When I took the pre-SAT, I asked, "What class is this for?" I was set at a disadvantage, yet I made things happen. I went against the grain and did what I needed to do to put myself on a pre-med track.

I'm driven, focused, and possess the willpower to make mountains move.

Or at least a mast.

I'm sorry Wendy quit.  She was annoying, but I give her all kinds of credit for competing with a disability.   Watching her struggle with her tics in the last challenge was uncomfortable but very admirable at the same time.

Edited March 29, 2019 by millennium

[Wandering Snark]

9 minutes ago, millennium said:

She was annoying, but I give her all kinds of credit for competing with a disability.   Watching her struggle with her tics in the last challenge was uncomfortable but very admirable at the same time. 

Agreed. However I'm of the same mind that says she didn't really "quit", but I won't kick off another round of debates as to why it's just how I feel. *shrug*

[amazingracefan]

The eliminated battling back in a competition to get back in the game is basically a Big Brother twist.  Though there they are given one chance and that's it  So I can understand if any of them feel that they've had their normal chance and their twist chance and that should be it.  I don't think the person who comes back can win, so maybe they could be a goat to take to the end.

[MisterBluxom]

8 hours ago, dsteele said:

Maybe. But I just have this awful feeling that he would then turn the whole thing around and proclaim to everyone how incredible it was that the first player voted out of the game did this unbelievable job of fighting all the odds and pulling off the most amazing comeback of all time, beating all the favored players and truly embodying the real spirit of the show by putting together the greatest Survivor victory ever!! And then announcing that they're going to do another Edge of Extinction season.

Well, in the words of Fargo's Sheriff Margie Gunderson, "I'm think I'm gonna barf."

I have no idea how he would do this. But every other sentence out of Probst's mouth is about how this show is just the greatest and most fabulous experience in Human History. I wouldn't be surprised if Probst got into an argument one day about Creation versus Evolution and said that the creation of Survivor was greater than the creation of the entire Universe .... blah blah blah Survivor ... blah blah blah Fantastic ... blah blah blah Survivor ... blah blah blah the  Greatest

There comes a time when listening to this just makes me puke.

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, eel2178 said:

So now everyone will still know who is on the other island based on who shows up in the jury at tribal council?

Perhaps Probst is trying some kind of Coup to take over the entire TV world and have Survivor run 7-24 forever. If Probst succeeds, there will be nothing else ever on TV except Survivor. Maybe he will have to rerun some past seasons. But eventually, I'm guessing he plans to hire a harem of beautiful women who will act as his minions and they each will host continuous shows - one in every country - until every country has only one TV channel and that channel airs Survivor episodes 24 hours per day - 7 days per week.

Enough Probst! Enough! Get some help you crazy motherfucker!

[gingerella]

3 hours ago, mikewho said:

And a lot of 'Who are these people?'

Seriously! Every week we're watching and someone gets interviewed and we're both like, "who the hell is that?!?"

[methadonna]

So, I keep reading that people's reaction after seeing this episode was, "There's an Aurora?"

Not me. I started reading the thread and, after enough references, thought, "There's an Aurora?" I STILL don't recall one being on this cast.

I recently discovered there was a Disney princess named Aurora and had that reaction; I still haven't figured out who she is or what she's from.

Shit, next you're gonna tell me there's a Roman goddess named Aurora. Or the geomagnetic disturbance of something in the polar something making pretty lights in nature something called Aurora [Something]. 

Either I'm not paying enough attention or I'm being totally punked.

Speaking of (maybe not paying enough attn, maybe getting played):

I apologize if someone brought this up and I missed it, but I keep seeing people commenting on how the EoI peeps are on the jury. I'm probably wrong because trying to apply logic, rhyme, or reason to how any of this will play out is as useful as trying to apply strategy to a game that you think is 3-D Chess while Jeff keeps adding elements if Candyland, BUT:

I never thought the current EoI members were there to serve as traditional/permanent jury members. Given that any of them still can re-enter the game, I thought they were there more of observers: pre-merge, the tribe(s) that don't go to council aren't privy to what occurs at it, so it was equitable that the EoI members weren't, either. (Plus, their existence was a secret, natch, but, especially given Jeff's highlighting to those still actively playing that the EoI members had had it just as tough--which is true on some levels, wrt "surviving," though arguable wrt mental toll, although I'm not sure at least the initial stage of EoI was necessarily easier, it was definitely different--I'm sure he'd argue their missing the ongoings at Tribal was simply an equalizer to not being on the losing tribe).

Now that they've merged, everyone actively playing is present for the discourse--true or bullshit-- that occurs. As one of the EoI residents may still return to the game, they've missed all of the actions and dynamics between tribals, but this gives them an equal awareness of tribals, at least.

And, probably more importantly, as whoever returns is still likely to ultimately get [re]voted out and end up on the "real" jury (which I'm forgetting when, post-merge, usually starts, but anyone who gets back in now and then out again would be on it) are on similar footing, information-wise, as any jury member who (in a less dumb season) spends their days at Ponderosa and just gets boated in to watch the tribals from after the merge until the FTC.

I'm actually now considering that *I'm* the one who read this wrong, and those three really will stay on the jury (assuming, and I am, they don't get back in the game) ... and, I'm not sure I mind it. If the other two hadn't dropped, maybe I'd feel differently, but it's only an extra three* at this point, and they certainly are more actively in the game than if they were spending the rest of their time chilling at Ponderosa: perhaps someone else voted out after this will elect not to to EoI it, and they WON'T be on the jury. It's not that I'm suddenly digging EoI, but, as it's there, it doesn't seem wrong to me that getting to be on the jury could serve as the basic reward for a Reem who, despite being voted out first, IS (presumably, if she doesn't raise the sail) engaging for all 39 days, in some ways, a greater challenge than actively playing and getting voted out as the first juror in seasons past.

And, yes, I realize I just essentially argued one side and then flipped and went with the other, but that was my literal thought process: I hadn't even considered that they were really the jury and was surprised everyone else seemed to, but as I wrote out why, I considered that maybe they WERE, AND, to my surprise, within the context if the EoI rules, I wasn't opposed.

*OT, but the editing/storytelling of the other two's leaving EoI was SO terrible: I eventually remembered that hoisting the sail meant surrender, but I hadn't initially, and, aesthetically and symbolically, it was much closer to a new/merge tribe creating and raising their flag that, coupled with the initial visuals of the two joyfully raising it while the three staying stood, crying ambiguously in the background, suggested a celebratory moment of "We're still in this game, and we're here together," and it was only when I caught the actual emotion in Aubrey's tearful face that I remembered the whole flag deal and realized the two were out. Bad editing, bad story-telling, but bad choice of symbols to begin with. Maybe I'm just dumb, but a raised tattered, dirty white, nameless sail makes far more sense to me as the EoI parallel of the raised Tribal flag--solid, colored, named--than the signal to leave.

Edited March 29, 2019 by methadonna
Not only don't I know the players' names; I'm making up names for the twistland? WTF is EoI? Edge of Island? Extinction o' Isle? Edge of Ixnaystinctionay? Dude, dis season's killing my brain cells. EOE. Next season, I suggest a theme of EEOC. Bye Jeff.

[dstann]

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

In my book, Keith and Wendy are not on the same low level as quitters like Na'Onka and Purple Kelly, but they also don't deserve the same respect as castaways who stayed in the game until they had no other choice.

When I think of players who protested and wept when being involuntarily medevaced, I can't help but look down on what Keith and Wendy chose to do.

I think at some point you have to be realistic about your chances of winning and if it is minimal then why put yourself through the hardship of EoE?  Keith was the second vote out, he didn't make it back into the game at merge, and will have to wait for 7? more tribals before getting a second chance to get back into the game.  He will then be the ultimate goat to take to the finals as he has played around 11 of the 39 days in the game.  How do you argue that you should be the sole survivor when you sat out over 2 thirds of the game?  Wendy was in the game longer but had no clue how to play and just seemed to be constantly sabotaging herself.  Personally I think the 3 who chose to remain on EoE are getting the jury experience, and as a survivor fan that could be worth it, but I wouldn't expect any of them to be close to winning.

[SVNBob]

18 hours ago, Haleth said:

Does David have an idol?

Technically, he only has half an idol.  Rick has the other half.  But this is not a Kaoh Rong situation where the two halves can make a Super Idol.  They make just a standard idol.

18 hours ago, ByaNose said:

13 or 14 might be the on the jury.

It'll be a jury of 13 at max.  We started the season with 18, and only 2 have left the game, making 16 still in play in some form.  There's most likely going to be an F3 as it has been in the recent past (with a fire-making challenge to determine one of the 3).  Which leaves 13 people to compose the jury.

15 hours ago, EllipticalAddicted said:

 Perhaps her symptoms come out during stressful events?   Or perhaps editing chose not to focus on her symptoms as much during her regular episodes.    I thought she was going to win and it was going to be a tearful Probst talking about everything she had to conquer to win her way back into the game.    

Today I learned that Devin is the same person as Rick, is that correct? 

Wendy did say that her tics got worse under stress, and the challenge showed that.  She was doing incredibly well, but her own body started fighting against her.   She didn't seem so bad in the tribal challenges, but then, those were team challenges and she could rely on the others.  But at this point on, it's individual challenges.

I don't mind her agreeing to stay again when first given the option, but then reconsidering after heading back to EoE.  After coming down from the adrenaline of the competition and the second unexpected reprieve, she probably realized that the second re-entry challenge would be even worse for her than this one, since she'd be on EoE until that happened, adding to her stress levels, and that competition would probably be even harder than this one.  So her tics would even worse in that competition, and she'd have even less of a chance of winning (and even less than that now that Joe is on EoE.)

I give less of a pass to Keith, but I suspect that the two of them talked each other into ending their game at the same time.

13 hours ago, meep.meep said:

Why didn't Rick/Devins try to use his split idol to get in good with someone on the Kama side, rather than with his old buddy David?  He was a likely boot out - why not go to Joe or Aurora or Julie and make a new friend?

Popular opinion is that nobody has yet played optimally since the merge.  Every decision made has been questioned.

While I get why he chose his closest ally David, Rick maybe should have gone to Julie with the half idol.  She had the necklace so was guaranteed not to be getting any votes, while David might have.  And she'd already expressed reluctance to vote Rick off again immediately.  Giving her the half idol would have shown trust in her and made it even more likely that she'd fight to keep him around.

12 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I read the link to the Wendy interview where she claims she didn't quit. The only thing worse than a quitter may just be someone who quits but claimed they didn't. Unless your story is that production raised the mast for you without your permission and dragged you off, you quit. It's ok to quit and a reasonable call but own it, please.

She could argue that it was Keith that raised the Surrender Sail for her.

5 hours ago, millennium said:

Many of the women are wearing shell necklaces.  I'm wondering if Etsy Julie made them.

Nope.  Those were provided by production; they contain the contestant's microphones.

[millennium]

3 minutes ago, SVNBob said:

Nope.  Those were provided by production; they contain the contestant's microphones.

No way!  But if the mike is in the seashell, how do they hear the contestant over the sound of the ocean?

[KimberStormer]

12 hours ago, NutMeg said:

Contestants from a dominant tribe are often unpleasant. First, we didn't see much of them, so we're not invested in them. Second, by winning a lot, they get complacent, and that makes them unlikeable.

It's even worse when it feels like one or two people seem to have carried the tribe. Here, Joe voluntarily decided he would be the Cinderella of the tribe, do all the hard work, provide all the comfort, expect no regards (i.e. not try to work out any firm alliance). We've seen this dynamic before. Koror springs to mind, with Tom and Ian not only ensuring challenge wins but also making tribe life much easier (though in that case Tom did leverage some regards).

So, of course we don't like them. They're smug because they've not really earned the right to gloat so far. They've been cynically exploiting labour, even tough it was voluntary labour. I know the episode when they splinter and/or are idol blinded will be most satifying. And with this edit, we know it's coming. 

I dunno.  I never disliked Koror.  Or Fei Long.  Or many dominant tribes.  Honestly in a lot of seasons it is the loser tribe that seems unlikeable to me (and surely Ulong is the best example, except for Angie, who should have been asked back instead of Stephenie at least once).  And except for Ron, I don't see any of them as showing any untoward self-regard or gloating.  And despite their lack of experience, they are playing very well and running rings around these veterans.  Aubry was voted out with an idol and an extra vote in her pocket!  And had just no idea!  And this time not only did they win a 13-person poll with 6 votes but they got all their enemies voting against each other!  Like how can Kelley and David get back together when they literally just voted for each other?  That's crazy good, excellent Survivor playing.

I also can't agree they're getting some kind of villain comeuppance edit.  That was Jason and Scot in Kaoh Rong, their every worst moment lovingly recorded so we could all cackle in glee as they failed.  I don't see that at all here.  They are somehow villainous for letting Joe do his dumbass Joe thing?  For voting out returnees like we always scream at the TV for newbies to do?  And Kelley somehow going to be the beloved scrappy heroine again after a whole season of everyone hating her?  I don't see it.  I expect all sorts of shenanigans with all the idols in play and the colossal bullshit machine of the EDGE OF EXTINCTION but I still pretty much expect one of these 6 to win the game, and at this point it would seem to be richly deserved.

8 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I agree with this. And honestly, that kind of thing should be interesting and it does make it less predictable how it would suss out if the Kama 6 become the F6, but the people that make up the Kama 6 are boring as hell and several of them are arrogant and smug, so it just sucks watching them imo.

I think the main reason this season sucks is because the cast sucks. EoE makes the game so stagnant, but that could maybe be mitigated if there were more interesting and/or fun people making interesting and dynamic moves.

See I totally disagree, like exactly the opposite.  It is the EDGE that makes the season suck, and the Kama 6 are mostly good and interesting but we hardly know it because there's no space in the edit for them, as @LanceM said.  In particular I really like the three on NuManu, Victoria, Eric, and Gavin.  Julia of course they are completely invisiblizing but she could be cool for all we know.  Not the biggest Ron fan, or Julie, as they both seem weirdly self-righteous, but they're collectively playing a hell of a game and I'd love to watch them play it...if only fucking EDGE OF EXTINCTION wasn't shitting up the place and stealing all their screentime.

12 hours ago, Nashville said:

Hmm... under such circumstances I think you’d have to loop both Rick and David (both formerly Lesu) with the “Lesu Losers” (Kelley, Lauren and Dan) - which means the plan would depend upon two Kamas (Joe and Aurora) defecting from a strong post-merge 8 (Kama) to a weak post-merge 4 (Lesu), and being content with most likely being the bottom 2 in that 6-person arrangement.  Given both Joe’s and Aurora’s ignorance of the Kama 6 “blindside Joe” plan, it’s doubtful either Joe or Aurora would’ve seen that as an exceptionally tempting offer; both were under the impression “Kama Strong” would rule the vote.

This is always Joe's mistake, though.  He already knows he's on the bottom of Kama, he's cried about it in confessionals, said it directly to Kelley this episode, etc.  There are only two people on that island he has any real reason to trust: one is Aurora, who has been with him since the beginning and seems to have no one else, and Kelley Wentworth, who he knows, who he's played with before, who is as much of a looming threat as him, who has no reason whatever to want to vote him out.  The returning player connection should be a huge blinking neon sign saying "FLIP JOE FLIP": that is his chance at an alliance-within-an-alliance, the thing that wins you the game, the thing he absolutely, positively does not have in the Kama 8.  The Kamas don't need him (obviously, as they proved by voting him out), the Lesus do.  Use that, go there, do that.

Of course we have to assume that, even with his utter failure to do fucking anything this episode, he knew that the Lesus were not united and were not going to vote together.  On the one hand, therefore it's hard to blame him for sticking with the fictionally united Kama.  On the other hand: all the more reason, IMO, to get his ass off the shelter floor and get to work yanking these feuding morons together with his bare hands.  Just like in Cambodia, I realize that the path I prescribe for Joe is a very difficult one, especially as it is super pro-active and he is a genuinely passive dude; but to whom much is given much is required and since Joe very likely only needs to survive a couple of tribals without the immunity necklace, he should have the energy to throw into working super-hard to get people voting together.  So I think what Joe should have been doing was going to David and Kelley and been like "goddammit settle down, stop trying to vote each other out and let's get an alliance going here, it's our only shot at winning."

In fact I think that knowing the EDGE OF EXTINCTION exists, instead of making Joe more complacent, should only make him more fearless!  Imagine, if you knew it didn't matter if you got voted out, wouldn't you rather go balls-to-the-wall crazy, trying some wild risky bold play, things with a crazy risk-reward ratio, instead of sitting in the shelter and painting??  I know I would.  I'd be like, "let's see if I can pull some Cirie moves out here, make myself a legend."  Because I can't lose!

(I know your original comment here was about what Rick should do with the half-idol.  I think your argument is valid, and if I still think on balance it would have been better for Rick to try to win someone else over with it, it's just a matter of temperment, and keeping it between him and David was reasonable.)

Edited March 29, 2019 by KimberStormer

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

No way!  But if the mike is in the seashell, how do they hear the contestant over the sound of the ocean?

Do they necessarily want to?  😄 

[himela]

I'm confused. The player first voted out is in jury? Could it BE more weird? But the people in jury also have a chance to get in the game again? And what about all the information they have already exchanged in extinction island about their game play or other people?

I really don't know with this season. I think it will be remembered as one of the worst ever.

[SVNBob]

26 minutes ago, himela said:

I'm confused. The player first voted out is in jury? Could it BE more weird?

Well, the first voted out might be on the jury.  She could possibly return to the game and make it to the F3.  (Doubtful, but still possible.)  And we don't know for certain what will happen to anyone who takes the Path of No Return or raises the Surrender Sail now.  Doing either of those might remove someone from the jury pool.

29 minutes ago, himela said:

And what about all the information they have already exchanged in extinction island about their game play or other people? 

That's no different that what the jury does in Ponderosa in a normal season.  The only difference here is that the returnee might get to use that information during the game instead of only at FTC.

34 minutes ago, himela said:

I really don't know with this season. I think it will be remembered as one of the worst ever.

It's going to be pretty low down on most people's lists, I agree.  And the winner may have to deal with an asterisk of sorts, depending.

But still, Bad Survivor is better than No Survivor (or any Big Brother...)

[ByaNose]

I think overall the winner won't be a conventional one because of the make up of the jury. Just think. If Reem is on the jury and was out of the game on Day 3 she most likely won't know any of the people in the Final 3. Unless, it's Kelley, Wardog, Lauren, Chris (I think that's his name), David or Devins. Of course, they all voted her out so she most likely wouldn't vote for any of them........I think. LOL!!!

[marys1000]

Slightly off topic but I think the consensus is that EoE, with its Jury who doesn't know anyone etc. is a bad idea, goes against the underlying prime theme of the game (fire snuffed etc.)

But Probst, when talking twists in the past, has tended to talk like he is listening to the tweets, community and will tout how people loved it, when people here and on Reddit hated it.  

Is that happening out in the greater sm sphere?  Is this a Reddit, PTV hardercore fan vs. more casual fans who are telling Probst how much they love EoE (and in the past Redemption Island, theme seasons, the Hanson family etc.)   Will Survivor Production recognize that the there were many flaws with this twist?  

[Xcptnl]

Who is the girl that is friends with Wentworth.  She is super annoying to me.   I want her gone.   Now.  ASAP!

Edited March 29, 2019 by Xcptnl
Typo

[NutMeg]

5 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

I dunno.  I never disliked Koror.  Or Fei Long.  Or many dominant tribes.  Honestly in a lot of seasons it is the loser tribe that seems unlikeable to me (and surely Ulong is the best example, except for Angie, who should have been asked back instead of Stephenie at least once).  And except for Ron, I don't see any of them as showing any untoward self-regard or gloating.  And despite their lack of experience, they are playing very well and running rings around these veterans.  Aubry was voted out with an idol and an extra vote in her pocket!  And had just no idea!  And this time not only did they win a 13-person poll with 6 votes but they got all their enemies voting against each other!  Like how can Kelley and David get back together when they literally just voted for each other?  That's crazy good, excellent Survivor playing.

I also can't agree they're getting some kind of villain comeuppance edit.  That was Jason and Scot in Kaoh Rong, their every worst moment lovingly recorded so we could all cackle in glee as they failed.  I don't see that at all here.  They are somehow villainous for letting Joe do his dumbass Joe thing?  For voting out returnees like we always scream at the TV for newbies to do?  And Kelley somehow going to be the beloved scrappy heroine again after a whole season of everyone hating her?  I don't see it.  I expect all sorts of shenanigans with all the idols in play and the colossal bullshit machine of the EDGE OF EXTINCTION but I still pretty much expect one of these 6 to win the game, and at this point it would seem to be richly deserved.

See I totally disagree, like exactly the opposite.  It is the EDGE that makes the season suck, and the Kama 6 are mostly good and interesting but we hardly know it because there's no space in the edit for them, as @LanceM said.  In particular I really like the three on NuManu, Victoria, Eric, and Gavin.  Julia of course they are completely invisiblizing but she could be cool for all we know.  Not the biggest Ron fan, or Julie, as they both seem weirdly self-righteous, but they're collectively playing a hell of a game and I'd love to watch them play it...if only fucking EDGE OF EXTINCTION wasn't shitting up the place and stealing all their screentime.

This is always Joe's mistake, though.  He already knows he's on the bottom of Kama, he's cried about it in confessionals, said it directly to Kelley this episode, etc.  There are only two people on that island he has any real reason to trust: one is Aurora, who has been with him since the beginning and seems to have no one else, and Kelley Wentworth, who he knows, who he's played with before, who is as much of a looming threat as him, who has no reason whatever to want to vote him out.  The returning player connection should be a huge blinking neon sign saying "FLIP JOE FLIP": that is his chance at an alliance-within-an-alliance, the thing that wins you the game, the thing he absolutely, positively does not have in the Kama 8.  The Kamas don't need him (obviously, as they proved by voting him out), the Lesus do.  Use that, go there, do that.

Of course we have to assume that, even with his utter failure to do fucking anything this episode, he knew that the Lesus were not united and were not going to vote together.  On the one hand, therefore it's hard to blame him for sticking with the fictionally united Kama.  On the other hand: all the more reason, IMO, to get his ass off the shelter floor and get to work yanking these feuding morons together with his bare hands.  Just like in Cambodia, I realize that the path I prescribe for Joe is a very difficult one, especially as it is super pro-active and he is a genuinely passive dude; but to whom much is given much is required and since Joe very likely only needs to survive a couple of tribals without the immunity necklace, he should have the energy to throw into working super-hard to get people voting together.  So I think what Joe should have been doing was going to David and Kelley and been like "goddammit settle down, stop trying to vote each other out and let's get an alliance going here, it's our only shot at winning."

In fact I think that knowing the EDGE OF EXTINCTION exists, instead of making Joe more complacent, should only make him more fearless!  Imagine, if you knew it didn't matter if you got voted out, wouldn't you rather go balls-to-the-wall crazy, trying some wild risky bold play, things with a crazy risk-reward ratio, instead of sitting in the shelter and painting??  I know I would.  I'd be like, "let's see if I can pull some Cirie moves out here, make myself a legend."  Because I can't lose!

(I know your original comment here was about what Rick should do with the half-idol.  I think your argument is valid, and if I still think on balance it would have been better for Rick to try to win someone else over with it, it's just a matter of temperment, and keeping it between him and David was reasonable.)

I mostly agree with you in that I don't dislike individual players within a dominant tribe, and I've gotten to like quite a number of them when we finally got to know them, but what I dislike, as a viewer, is the dominance itself, I guess. I prefer it when everyone has to scramble somewhat, it makes it more fun to watch, and as an added bonus we get to know the players better. So I don't think they're edited as villains, but I still look forward to when they have to make tough decisions, which they haven't had to do so far.

[RedbirdNelly]

6 hours ago, SVNBob said:

She could argue that it was Keith that raised the Surrender Sail for her. 

Unless her point is "Keith raised the sail and production wrongly thought I was with him on that so I got swept out of the game", that argument would be stupid. She quit. Whether she put her hands on the sail or not is not the issue. I'm not saying it was a bad call to toss in the towel--but if you quit, own it. Don't quit and say you didn't. Makes no sense and makes me respect you less.

[Xcptnl]

21 hours ago, Special K said:

LOL!  Actually most hair does better without shampooing, especially curly/coarse hair like Joe's.

He has great hair.  As a curly I just stare at it and wish mine was even close to being that spectacular 

[blackwing]

7 hours ago, SVNBob said:

While I get why he chose his closest ally David, Rick maybe should have gone to Julie with the half idol.  She had the necklace so was guaranteed not to be getting any votes, while David might have.  And she'd already expressed reluctance to vote Rick off again immediately.  Giving her the half idol would have shown trust in her and made it even more likely that she'd fight to keep him around.

She could argue that it was Keith that raised the Surrender Sail for her.

Nope.  Those were provided by production; they contain the contestant's microphones.

I still think his best bet would have been Joe... Joe was on the outs with his tribe, which Rick probably should have discerned from conversations with Aubrey.  They couldn't have just sat around all day at EoE looking tired and exhausted.  Surely they must have all been eager to hear Aubrey's take on happenings when she arrived.

Wendy can't argue that Keith raised the sail for her... I watched it closely and I'm pretty sure her hands are on the rope as well.  He seems to do most of it but she has her hands on the rope and is shown pulling as well.

Are these microphone things new this season?  Are they only on the women or do the men have them as well?  I don't recall seeing them in the past.  This seems definitely an element borrowed from "Naked and Afraid" which has always had them.

[green]

19 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Keith said in an interview that Production had not told them they were going to be on the Jury if they stayed. So they quit not knowing that element. 

Good for production on that one.  You know another challenge could be anything and not necessarily something super physical.  You know the game is full of twists.  You know this is your ONLY time in your whole life you will get to be on Survivor.  Then you quit and want to blame production for not telling you there were more goodies for you if you stayed?  Nope.  Keith and Wendy QUIT!  They are no better than other quitters in the past.  Probably worse.

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

I still think his best bet would have been Joe... Joe was on the outs with his tribe, which Rick probably should have discerned from conversations with Aubrey.

If Rick had given half to Joe he would have no idol at all now.  Rick made the right decision.  He gave it to the only person who he could really trust and would keep his mouth shut about it and if David had gone out then Rick knew he was done for anyway.  But Joe going out wasn't a big deal for him.  Now he has an idol that is functionally and not lost forever had he given it to Joe. 

(Edited to add:  Also still secret and since he played no idol at tribal and most -- if not Julie -- of the Kama 6 will think he has no idol at all since they think he thought he was the target).

And knowing they were targeting Joe from Aubrey (IF she gave any info away) means that is the last person you give half of your idol to because you lose it when he leaves.

As for other people suggesting he could have gained an ally with half an idol?  I think the exact opposite.  He wasn't giving his idol to that person.  He was giving away a big secret to someone who was a stranger to him.  And telling them in the process that next time the whole idol was his so he was now a major threat who could either save himself or at least monkey wrench up a future tribal.

Edited March 29, 2019 by green

[AZChristian]

10 hours ago, SVNBob said:

Technically, he only has half an idol.  Rick has the other half.  But this is not a Kaoh Rong situation where the two halves can make a Super Idol.  They make just a standard idol.

It'll be a jury of 13 at max.  We started the season with 18, and only 2 have left the game, making 16 still in play in some form.  There's most likely going to be an F3 as it has been in the recent past (with a fire-making challenge to determine one of the 3).  Which leaves 13 people to compose the jury.

So what happens if David refuses to give him the other half of the immunity idol back?

13 is a great number for a jury.  No matter how many are in the finals, there won't be a tie.

[Nashville]

6 hours ago, SVNBob said:

That's no different that what the jury does in Ponderosa in a normal season. 

Is it?  I was under the impression the Jury members at Ponderosa had handlers sticking close by each of them to monitor - and shut down, if necessary - any pre-FTC vote discussion amongst the Jurors.  No such juror management at EoE, though.

4 hours ago, marys1000 said:

But Probst, when talking twists in the past, has tended to talk like he is listening to the tweets, community and will tout how people loved it, when people here and on Reddit hated it.  

Hell - for all we know, Peachy’s sole feedback is what he gets at his own dinner table every evening.

[green]

1 minute ago, AZChristian said:

So what happens if David refuses to give him the other half of the immunity idol back?

13 is a great number for a jury.  No matter how many are in the finals, there won't be a tie.

I know there is some discussion whether the other half holder could keep his but I don't see why not since that half was given away to them.  Production was probably hoping for some drama out of this "twist" after all.  If so then reason #43 to give the half idol to David.  He is the only one he could trust to give back the other half.

[ProfCrash]

1 minute ago, Nashville said:

Is it?  I was under the impression the Jury members at Ponderosa had handlers sticking close by each of them to monitor - and shut down, if necessary - any pre-FTC vote discussion amongst the Jurors.  No such juror management at EoE, though.

Hell - for all we know, Peachy’s sole feedback is what he gets at his own dinner table every evening.

They say that but I strongly doubt that Production shuts down game talk.

[ByaNose]

I just realized with Edge of Extinction Island and this early jury there isn't any Ponderosa or pre jury trip.......I guess.....maybe. I know all of the previous season the pre jury became closer (whether they like it or not) due to the pre jury trips. I wonder if Keith & Wendy (and, whoever else quits) just are stuck at Ponderosa until the game ends/ended?!

[fishcakes]

28 minutes ago, green said:

I know there is some discussion whether the other half holder could keep his but I don't see why not since that half was given away to them. 

Also, the note that came with the idol said the idol was a "bargaining chip." Rick can only bargain with it if it has some value to person he gives it to. If the rule is that the other person keeps it when it's worthless but has to give it back to Rick once it becomes an active idol, then there's nothing in it for them. It's only worth something if the other person can keep their half and has some control over how the idol is used or if they can prevent Rick from using it later.

[survivinmt]

Wendy drove me absolutely bonkers with her "interpretive" hand gestures when she talked. It is so obnoxious to me when people talk like that.

Joe is just like Ozzy, with a slightly smaller ego. Yes, they are good at the literal "Outplay" part of Survivor - but the part about getting along with people and trying to get them to want to keep you around for loyalty or really any other reason - they are terrible at. Also see: Terry Diaz.

[survivinmt]

2 minutes ago, survivinmt said:

Wendy drove me absolutely bonkers with her "interpretive" hand gestures when she talked. It is so obnoxious to me when people talk like that.

Joe is just like Ozzy, with a slightly smaller ego. Yes, they are good at the literal "Outplay" part of Survivor - but the part about getting along with people and trying to get them to want to keep you around for loyalty or really any other reason - they are terrible at. Also see: Terry Dietz.

[mythoughtis]

I’m having a hard time accepting the fact that this Ron is the subject of a TV movie - the Ron Clark Story.  Now, first, I will admit that I’ve never watched that movie. However, I thought the movie was about how he turned a school around and made it an excellent school and that a lot of the underprivileged students go on to college. This Ron doesn’t seem to be anywhere near that idealistic of a person. 

[Wandering Snark]

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

Are these microphone things new this season?  Are they only on the women or do the men have them as well?  I don't recall seeing them in the past.  This seems definitely an element borrowed from "Naked and Afraid" which has always had them.

Well they need microphones somewhere and what with the whole nakedness the necklaces are the only option! Surivor-wise still not sure if these are microphones or craft projects... You'd think everyone would have a somewhat matching set if they were mics.

[MissEwa]

Bleh. This season is bad. 

Count me in as another one who completely missed Keith and Wendy leaving. Jeff brought the jury in and I was so confused that they were gone. I think I left the room for 30 seconds at one point? So weird. 

A question re EoE/Ponderosa etc - do players who get quit EoE from hereon in (or get voted out of the game and choose not to go there) join the jury? If so, there has to be an actual Ponderosa, but it might end up with only one or two people on it. 

I hate EoE. I don't necessarily hate watching it, all the time - I like Aubrey. Chris seems fine - but the concept is terrible. And more than hating the idea that the first person voted out of the game is on the jury, I hate the idea that someone in the final 3 could have spend most of the game not playing. I just keep coming back to the fact that what I love most about this game is that to win you have to not only get to the end but you have to do so in a way where the people you helped voted out still like you enough to give you a million dollars.

I want to believe that nobody would vote for Reem if she made it back in but I understand human emotions enough to know that for some people if it was a choice between her and two people who wrote your name down, she wins. I HATE that. Everyone in the finals needs some blood on their hands, or it changes the whole dynamic. 

I did find it hilarious in this episode that the remaining players were referring to the 'edge of extinction' so perfectly in their confessionals. They literally found out about it that day and nobody was accidentally calling it 'extinction island' or referring to outcasts or redemption. It was all very on-brand. They must have done so many takes.   

And IDK, in a garbage season, I'm looking for positives, so I actually enjoyed the chaos of the planning and the vote. I was surprised it was Joe, just because Kelly got a lot of screentime and he didn't. Ron doesn't bother me too much - I'm sure he will, but he seems just excited to finally be playing. And I like Victoria. Aside from the whole thing with Joe overhearing her a few episodes ago, I think she's playing well. And she's actually PLAYING. 

[Nashville]

51 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

I’m having a hard time accepting the fact that this Ron is the subject of a TV movie - the Ron Clark Story.  Now, first, I will admit that I’ve never watched that movie. However, I thought the movie was about how he turned a school around and made it an excellent school and that a lot of the underprivileged students go on to college. This Ron doesn’t seem to be anywhere near that idealistic of a person. 

I learned a while back: unless there is objective Game-exterior evidence to support such, never assume a person’s reality show “persona” is an accurate representation of what kind of person they are in real life.  Some of the most cutthroat players may the the nicest people on the planet IRL.

...unless that person is named Russell Hantz, of course.  No matter WHERE he is, Russell is still a dick.  ;>

Edited March 29, 2019 by Nashville
Expansion

[mikewho]

2 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

  1 hour ago, Nashville said:

Is it?  I was under the impression the Jury members at Ponderosa had handlers sticking close by each of them to monitor - and shut down, if necessary - any pre-FTC vote discussion amongst the Jurors.  No such juror management at EoE, though.

Maybe in the past, but not anymore. I doubt they have handlers hanging around with rulers just ready to smack a contestant's hand if they dare to talk game.

And I think it would be impossible anyway. Who's to stop one contestant just mouthing someone's name or a few words to another when nobody's looking?

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

They say that but I strongly doubt that Production shuts down game talk.

I sincerely doubt Production would shut down ALL game talk - just the parts that wander into “so who are YOU going to vote for?” territory.  TPTB don’t want the Jurors sorting out all that stuff beforehand, and going into FTC all settled-down and sure of their votes; they want the Jurors unsure, off-balance, and (over-)reacting - and all in front of the cameras.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, mythoughtis said:

I’m having a hard time accepting the fact that this Ron is the subject of a TV movie - the Ron Clark Story.  Now, first, I will admit that I’ve never watched that movie. However, I thought the movie was about how he turned a school around and made it an excellent school and that a lot of the underprivileged students go on to college. This Ron doesn’t seem to be anywhere near that idealistic of a person. 

He mentioned in a confessional in the first episode that he didn't want set a bad example for his students, but that he thought the understood the difference between the game of Survivor and the real world.   He seems to have made the decision to separate the game from real life and not try to uphold his real world standards in the game.   

I don't think he has done anything extreme in the game that goes beyond typical "Survivor ethics".  Probably the worst thing he did was tell Julia to go through Joe's stuff, while he kept Joe occupied.   

[zscore]

2 hours ago, AZChristian said:

13 is a great number for a jury.  No matter how many are in the finals, there won't be a tie.

With F3 it's always possible to have a tie (6-6-1 or 5-5-3).

[Nashville]

24 minutes ago, zscore said:

With F3 it's always possible to have a tie (6-6-1 or 5-5-3).

Yup.  With two finalists, all you need is an odd number of Jurors to avoid a tie vote.  With a F3 finale, any even split between two of the finalists with a remainder (votes for the 3rd finalist) smaller than the individual splits will result in a tie.

ETA: ...at which point the third Juror (no longer qualified as an eligible finalist by virtue of receiving fewer votes than either of the other two finalists) becomes a Juror, and casts the tiebreaker vote. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Nashville