S03.E17: R&B

[CarpeFelis]

1 minute ago, GodsBeloved said:

I'm still salty over that! That being Kate being Maid of Honor. And now that I think about it, why was it Kate coming to get Beth instead of Beth's sister/Zoe? Yes the exchange between Kate and Kevin was cute/funny but Kate was so out of place it's ridiculous.

I didn’t get that either. I’ve never had the impression that Beth and Kate were particularly close or that Beth even liked Kate very much, and yet the wedding scenes made it look like they were BFFs. Since when? I get that Beth and Zoe don’t always get along, but it seems way more likely she’d have had Zoe as MOH. I can’t recall whether Zoe was present, so maybe the writers handwaved that away as her being off traveling?

[DearEvette]

2 hours ago, shoovenbooty said:

Don't forget the Lemonade Kid conversation from a few episodes ago, the one Randall felt bad for and bought frozen lemonade from one winter. Beth's response was, "He was stupid, baby!" when she could have said, "That was really sweet of you to buy frozen lemonade from that little boy."

See, I thought that comment was hilarious.  Boy was stupid.  Who the hell sets up a lemonade stand in the winter?  And anyone who doesn't think or say something uncomplimentary about anyone ever in the privacy of their own heads or homes is an annointed saint.  Damned skippy I am going to dis Karen about putting raisins in her potato salad.  Behind her back to my husband on the way home because I too polite to say it to her face.

1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

I've spent my whole educational life in predominantly white institutions. While there were few Black students (I think my undergrad alma mater, an Ivy, is around 5% Black), it wasn't as though there were NO Black students. I'm sure Beth didn't mean "we're the only two Black students" literally. HOWEVER, when you are a person of color in predominantly white spaces, that thing where white people try to put you with the only other person of color  they know is very real. "I know someone you should meet!" "Oh? What's he like?" "He's Black!" " ... And?" is a conversation I've had more than once. (My gay friends tell me straight people do the same thing to them.) If Randall is the only other Black person Beth's floor-mates (for example) saw around, I 100% believe they'd tell her "Have you met Randall? You should go out!" without knowing a single thing about him. 

This^^ I went to a PWI that had probably closer to a 9% black population.  We created a thriving community, the Black Greeks were very active, we all went to the same parties, all hung out together etc.  But in my academic program I could go to classes all semester and be the only black face in my classes.  In fact my sophomore year it was me and one black guy. Microaggressions were thick on the ground in those classes.

52 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I agree that there is a difference, but I disagree about the kind of difference.  Randall's comment was both belittling and born of spite.  ...  It was petty, spiteful, and malicious.

Beth snapped during an argument, after Randall dismissed everything she said about accommodating him and being the one to bend.  ...I can tell you that it isn't just the person with the diagnosis's issue.   Everyone in that household lives with Randall's diagnosis.

This is how I feel about the two comments.  Randall's was full of intent.  He stewed about it and did it deliberately to hurt.  Beth's was a thoughtless, impulsive comment that was probably heartfelt and true fr her but not something she would have ever said to Randall out of spite. 

The other difference is, Randall was only upset about his comment because Beth showed up and proved him wrong.  He wasn't sorry he said it, he was sorry he was wrong.  If Beth hadn't shown up, he would have still felt righteous about it.  Beth knew she had said something she shouldn't have the minute it came out her mouth.  She showed immediate remorse.  You could see all the fight leeching out of her when she said it.  She knew that they'd been having a cathartic argument ... even one that might have yielded some positive results, until that came out of her mouth.

And this is why I liked the argument.  I am not on either team.  I saw it as one of those arguments where each party came to it from their own perspective and neither one was wholly right or wrong.

It is easy to see in hindsight where you made wrong choices, bad decisions and how you let things get to a certain point.  Not so easy to recognize what is happening in the moment.  For R&B I think it is clear they are people who loved each other, imperfect personalities aside.  And we saw smallish moments early in their marriage of stress points that they spackled over allowing their love for each other to defuse the situation (even if they didn't directly address the stress point iteself).   But it wasn't until all the stressors on their marriage started to pile up one by one by one (William, Deja, Randall's flights of fancy, job loss etc.) that they couldn't let them go just because they love each other.

[TVForever]

13 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

And it has been mentioned during the show how big the damn house is,but it never seems to have very many bedrooms.

Ditto. It was made clear in the first episode that Randall and Beth were at least upper middle class, maybe outright rich, so I found it odd that William moving in meant the girls doubling up. That big house didn’t have a dedicated guest room? Not office/guest room, but actual guest room.

And subsequent exterior shots make that house look really large.

[Neurochick]

My take on the relationship:

Just because you really love someone doesn't mean you should stay silent when issues come up that bother you.  Don't let them become resentments that come up 20 years later because you've been holding back on saying anything...because you love that person.  

It's like the show I watch, "Married at First Sight."  Some of the people on that show just want to be MARRIED for the sake of being married.  They'll overlook things that bother them about the other person because it's more important to be married.  Same as loving a person so you don't pay attention to their flaws, because you love them and you think it's enough.  

It's why I like this book.

[GodsBeloved]

11 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

This is how I feel about the two comments.  Randall's was full of intent.  He stewed about it and did it deliberately to hurt.  Beth's was a thoughtless, impulsive comment that was probably heartfelt and true fr her but not something she would have ever said to Randall out of spite. 

The other difference is, Randall was only upset about his comment because Beth showed up and proved him wrong.  He wasn't sorry he said it, he was sorry he was wrong.  If Beth hadn't shown up, he would have still felt righteous about it.  Beth knew she had said something she shouldn't have the minute it came out her mouth.  She showed immediate remorse.  You could see all the fight leeching out of her when she said it.  She knew that they'd been having a cathartic argument ... even one that might have yielded some positive results, until that came out of her mouth.

Can I marry this? I don't care if our first date is horrible. I'm going back to my dorm and telling my roommate THIS is who I'm marrying LOL

I think this is the best breakdown of the 2 comments I've seen so far.

[ShadowFacts]

52 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

See, I thought that comment was hilarious.  Boy was stupid.  Who the hell sets up a lemonade stand in the winter?  And anyone who doesn't think or say something uncomplimentary about anyone ever in the privacy of their own heads or homes is an annointed saint.  Damned skippy I am going to dis Karen about putting raisins in her potato salad.  Behind her back to my husband on the way home because I too polite to say it to her face.

Thanks for making me laugh on a bad day.  Beth has said some snarky things, but so has Randall.  And Kate and Kevin.  Oh, and Toby.  And Madison.  Because we all do it, if nothing else in the privacy of our own heads as you say.  My grandmother (a saint) is the only person who would never do it -- the strongest thing she ever said about someone who did something outrageous was "Why would he do that?"  With not a bit of irony, she really wanted to know.

[Crs97]

Their first date reminded me of a time when my older sister was asked out and planned to go in jeans and a nice sweater.  The guy showed up in a suit.  She had only brought one dress home from college that weekend.  Mom quickly put him in the breakfast room chatting with her while I had to meet him on my way to the laundry room, grab the dress, and then run it outside and around the house through the front door, past the breakfast room, and up the stairs so she could change quickly without him noticing.

I can’t help thinking Beth’s comment about his anxiety was a lazy way for the writers to make them even.  Now Randall can disregard her earlier valid arguments because she was mean at the end.  

He should never have pushed her to have the fight that night.  I know when I am really angry I can get irrationally upset about everything.  I need the time and space to cool down and do a self inventory of what I am really mad about and why and what kind of solution I can envision before I raise the issue.  Husband knows to give me that space.  Randall couldn’t even give her that one request.  

In the waiting room when he talked about how his new job took more time and she said she had tried to warn him during the campaign, Randall looked annoyed as he said it was done now so she would just have to deal with it.  I might be inclined if I were Beth to tell him she accepted the teaching job, it’s done now, and he would just have to deal with it.

[CarpeFelis]

I really hated Randall's completely tone-deaf response when Beth wanted to skip their weekly dinner with Rebecca. He was too self-absorbed to read between the lines that Beth really wanted a date night with just the two of them. He just assumed Rebecca was coming along and didn't even think to ask Beth if she minded!

Rebecca, for her part, should have told Randall that the two of them should go have a good time. Barring that, she DEFINITELY should not have butted in after the argument on the mini-golf course.

Beth is hardly a victim here, though. She should have been clear that she wanted some  couple time, or at the very least, spoken up when Randall assumed Rebecca was coming along, but she didn't. She generally comes across like this very take-charge person, but with Randall she always gives in. Even now - she still showed up for the dinner, even though she obviously resented it. This is her part of the pattern of Randall doing whatever the hell his latest whim is, regardless of how it affects his family (and I don't mean Saint Rebecca and the Sanctimonious Pearsons).

But as much as I like kid Randall and teen Randall, I'm Team Beth. She spoke up and asked him to drop out of the election if it got to be too much, he promised he would, and then he went back on his word on this very big thing. He's all worried about someone being around for the kids (who are not toddlers, FFS) yet he chose to take a job that means a long commute and various other demands on his time and simply assumes Beth will pick up the slack. Why does he care so much more about the people in William's old neighborhood than he does about his wife and kids?

[Blakeston]

3 hours ago, shoovenbooty said:

When Beth and Randall were expressing fears over nachos late that night, Beth feared their daughter wouldn't have any rhythm. It made me wonder why, if Beth was so passionate about ballet, that neither of her girls did it? 

That comment really irritated me, because it seemed like she was somewhat serious. It would be like a father saying that his biggest worry about parenting is that his son might not be good at football.

Everyone has their irritating moments, but what gets me with Beth is that I get the impression that we're expected to see her flaws as positives. When Beth makes a comment like that thing about her child needing to have rhythm, it's supposed to be cute. When she wants to attack the pretzel grandma, we're supposed to think she's being charming. When she lies to Randall about having to go to a conference, the takeaway is that Randall is in the wrong for putting her in a position where she wanted to lie.

[smartymarty]

This was an interesting episode. As others have noted, it's not all black and white. I saw a marriage end under similar personalities. One was confident and forthright, while the other compromised. When the marriage ended, it seemed to me they shared blame: one for not speaking up, the other for not realizing s/he was bulldozing the other. The thing with R&B though, is now that Beth has spoken up, instead of stepping back and acknowledging the problem, Randall is placing blame. And he could have picked up on it over the years, as we were shown: Beth speaking up about not spending every Sunday with Rebecca (which was the complaint, not Sunday dinner); Beth sneaking off to a hotel because she couldn't take it at home anymore (yes, she should have been honest about that, but once Randall found out, he didn't rectify things by moving Kevin and William out).

And just to put my vote in, college Randall saying "I'm going to marry her" after one (really lousy date) was creepy. It again was entirely tone-deaf to her saying "don't call me." Something happened to bring her around, but at the time he said it? Definitely awful.

[CarpeFelis]

I am dying to know what changed Beth's mind after "don't call me again" and REALLY hope it didn't amount to being steamrollered by Randall.

[kili]

Quote

He's all worried about someone being around for the kids (who are not toddlers, FFS) yet he chose to take a job that means a long commute and various other demands on his time and simply assumes Beth will pick up the slack. 

Randall himself stated that on days when Beth is not teaching, he doesn't always get home before the girls are asleep ("If I'm lucky, I get a chance to catch the girls before they go to bed.") and he hasn't even been sworn in yet. Once he gets busy with committees, attending town halls and shovelling roads (as he promised), he's going to have even less time especially with the OCD way he attacks things. 

In a way, Beth's teaching job is forcing him to slow down a little and actually interact with his children a few nights a week. 

Randall also seems to want his wife to attend functions and be the good political wife which would mean both parents spending hours committing away from their kids. Again, Beth's refusal to bend will probably mean she has more time to spend with the girls overall. 

I don't even know if moving to Philly would help with the way Randall chooses to do things. He'll just convert the commute time into doing more for his constituents.  Or he'll find another rabbit to chase. Beth is right to fear that it will turn into multiple terms or him going for higher office.

[Empress1]

56 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

When she wants to attack the pretzel grandma, we're supposed to think she's being charming.

I didn't think she was seriously going to attack the grandmother. Nothing in Beth's behavior has indicated that she would ever literally drop-kick anyone. It was just a way of expressing annoyance. She was tired and cranky and irritated. Crunching pretzels probably irritated her more than it would have if it was noon instead of 4 AM, she was operating on a full night's sleep, and she was showered and in a clean change of clothes. I've heard annoyance expressed in similar ways many times. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Empress1

[alexvillage]

Unpopular opinion.

I actually thought that the Beth/Randall situation was pretty realistic. I didn't particularly like the episode, I don't like when the whole episode focus on one story but it rang true to real life to me. People gaslight partners all the time. They blame the partner for their lack of whatever, then they feel guilty about blaming the partner, then they blame themselves but end up lashing at the partner,  act/react as victim, at the same time that they reject being seen as victims. They acknowledge their mistakes but, in a not so subtle way, still blame the other. It is a mess and I can see this in my own relationships and the relationships around me. 

I have been there but while I was there, I wasn't able to fully accept where I had failed. It takes being apart, distancing yourself from the whole situation or whole relationship to come to a more honest place.

I agree that the sound people they found did a great job carping the essence of the established adult characters. The actors are great and the directors and casting people also got it right.

[duggarshow]

On 3/27/2019 at 8:24 AM, GodsBeloved said:

Randall: “I’m going to run for City Council in Philly, despite us not living there, and it being a six hour round trip drive every day, with very little pay.”  Beth: “l’m with you baby.”

That's not exactly how that played out. Beth did, in fact, ask Randall to step down from the race for City Councilman because she and his campaign manager deemed the race unwinnable. She hasn't always been the unending, uncomplaining, long-suffering wife she's being portrayed as in many of the comments here. 

Also, Randall didn't "let" Beth do anything. She's an adult. 

#TeamRandallAllTheWay

[maddie965]

Can anyone tell me if this episode is all Randall and Beth all the time? Because if it is, I will gladly skip it. Tks.

[cameron]

8 hours ago, bybrandy said:

He deferred Howard to stay nearer and help out Rebecca after Jack died.  Looks like he ended up at Carnagie instead.

Thanks for the clarification.  Actually thought that Howard wasn't his first choice.

[deirdra]

4 minutes ago, maddie965 said:

Can anyone tell me if this episode is all Randall and Beth all the time? Because if it is, I will gladly skip it. Tks.

It's ~60% Randall & Beth and 40% Randall & Pearsons from age 10 to the present.

[RachelKM]

52 minutes ago, alexvillage said:

I have been there but while I was there, I wasn't able to fully accept where I had failed. It takes being apart, distancing yourself from the whole situation or whole relationship to come to a more honest place.

Agreed.  I still maintain my ex-husband was more wrong.  But with space and time, I was able to acknowledge the ways in which I participated in our dynamic and the things I did, some in response to his behavior and some just my own bullshit, that contributed to our issues. 

[WhosThatGirl]

4 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

I didn’t get that either. I’ve never had the impression that Beth and Kate were particularly close or that Beth even liked Kate very much, and yet the wedding scenes made it look like they were BFFs. Since when? I get that Beth and Zoe don’t always get along, but it seems way more likely she’d have had Zoe as MOH. I can’t recall whether Zoe was present, so maybe the writers handwaved that away as her being off traveling?

Yeah it is odd Kate was maid of honor considering the episode when Randall and Beth were in a fight at Kate’s bachelottee party and Kate yelled at Beth and Beth got all upset and ran off to her hotel room. They had a nice heart to heart but it was implied that they weren’t close at all. They said as much. Kate said she always felt intimidated by Beth. It’s odd she was her maid of honor. In the wedding of course. Beth was a part of Kate’s but she wasn’t maid of honor, Madison was.

[Neurochick]

Watching the show again.  Interesting that Beth asked Randall if he was hot in a suit and tie and she's wearing a hoodie.  Huh?

Also, maybe it's a generational thing, but many years ago, it was in 1990, I was asked on a date, it was August, I wore a summer dress and the guy wore short shorts.  I was like WTF and thought it was disrespectful.  I thought, "oh, since I'm a black woman, he didn't feel that he had to try."  See, that's what I don't get about Beth.  So many black women I know, and me too, often complain that the men don't try, that they think, "oh, it's just a black woman, why bother?"  And here Randall is, trying and Beth's like, "meh."  Interesting. 

However, I can see Beth's feelings too.  Randall wants things to go HIS way.  He wanted to propose to her HIS way, that's why Beth took him to HER favorite restaurant and had HER favorite meal.  It wasn't that she didn't want to marry Randall, but she wanted things to be equal, and I totally can get behind that.  

I understood the conversation Beth had with Randall, but they should not have had it at 4am when they were both tired.  

And when Beth wanted to spend the day alone, did she really?  Randall told her to go, but SHE was the one who gave in.  Was that Randall's fault?  

Randall didn't "let" Beth do something; SHE allowed it.  She never told him, STOP RANDALL, I NEED SOMETHING.... So she can't fault him for something she never verbalized.  

I think I have a problem with Beth because I have so many friends, women who are with men who cheat on them with other women, who are with men who don't want to pay child support, with men who don't give a shit.  And I feel, WTF is wrong with Beth.  I see her point, but I have a problem with her too.

[maddie965]

1 hour ago, deirdra said:

It's ~60% Randall & Beth and 40% Randall & Pearsons from age 10 to the present.

Thanks. Not watching then. Randall is my least favorite character right now.

I'm one step away of ditching this show for good.

[GodsBeloved]

17 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Beth was a part of Kate’s but she wasn’t maid of honor, Madison was.

Kate didn’t have a bridal party or maid of honor. Beth was on the front row and Madison was on the second.

Yes I have watched Kate’s wedding a lot 😂 

[WhosThatGirl]

1 minute ago, GodsBeloved said:

Kate didn’t have a bridal party or maid of honor. Beth was on the front row and Madison was on the second.

Yes I have watched Kate’s wedding a lot 😂 

Oh, I just assumed Madison was MOH because she took charge of all rtfs activities.

[kili]

Quote

She never told him, STOP RANDALL, I NEED SOMETHING.... So she can't fault him for something she never verbalized. 

We have seen her ask him to stop and allow her to do things or have a break. He doesn't respect that. 

In "Vegas, Baby", she asked him to stop worrying about Deja. He crashes Kate's bachelorette party as Beth is being featured in the show after Deja calls:

Beth:Oh, my God, Randall! You seriously crashed your sister's bachelorette party to tell me that?

Randall: Beth, I know what this sounds like, - but my gut tells me -

Beth: One night. You couldn't give me one night. I sit inside your anxiety every damn minute of every damn day, and you can't give me one night?

I was annoyed that he turned out right to be worried because it just reinforced his behaviour of ignoring Beth and always worrying about everything.

Here is their argument about adopting from "A Father's Advice"

Randall: Do you not want to adopt?

Beth: Does it matter what I want? [Randall- Hey. ]We only ever talk about what you want, Randall. You want to adopt. You want to honor your fathers. I know this has been a weird year for you, and I am trying to be supportive, but this is becoming, like a weird pattern.

Randall: Okay, I hear you. We're partners, in everything. But 37 years ago, my parents chose me, and that's why I'm here with you right now. This isn't going away for me, Beth. You need to get your head around it. 

She's right. They always have the same argument. She starts out objecting that it's never about what she wants and only about what he wants. He responds about being partners, but this time is special and they need to do it his way.  In this instance, she is able to convince him to become a foster parent, but he soon decides he wants to adopt. It didn't go away.

The fight in this episode has been building throughout the seasons. 

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, kili said:

We have seen her ask him to stop and allow her to do things or have a break. He doesn't respect that. 

In "Vegas, Baby", she asked him to stop worrying about Deja. He crashes Kate's bachelorette party as Beth is being featured in the show after Deja calls:

Beth:Oh, my God, Randall! You seriously crashed your sister's bachelorette party to tell me that?

Randall: Beth, I know what this sounds like, - but my gut tells me -

Beth: One night. You couldn't give me one night. I sit inside your anxiety every damn minute of every damn day, and you can't give me one night?

I was annoyed that he turned out right to be worried because it just reinforced his behaviour of ignoring Beth and always worrying about everything.

Here is their argument about adopting from "A Father's Advice"

Randall: Do you not want to adopt?

Beth: Does it matter what I want? [Randall- Hey. ]We only ever talk about what you want, Randall. You want to adopt. You want to honor your fathers. I know this has been a weird year for you, and I am trying to be supportive, but this is becoming, like a weird pattern.

Randall: Okay, I hear you. We're partners, in everything. But 37 years ago, my parents chose me, and that's why I'm here with you right now. This isn't going away for me, Beth. You need to get your head around it. 

She's right. They always have the same argument. She starts out objecting that it's never about what she wants and only about what he wants. He responds about being partners, but this time is special and they need to do it his way.  In this instance, she is able to convince him to become a foster parent, but he soon decides he wants to adopt. It didn't go away.

The fight in this episode has been building throughout the seasons. 

And don't forget when she told him that they could not do all the repairs to Williams' building at once and that they had to check the structure and whatever.  And lo and behold, Randall and Kevin are knocking down walls 5 minutes later which becomes a huge problem.

And, when he promised to quit the race if she and she asked and he said no.

There really is no point to her speaking up because he just does. not. care.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Katy M

[Neurochick]

My problem is it's like Beth has become this damsel in distress.  Randall might not listen to her, but Beth just allows it.  

I think the first date scene was way important (I'd never wear sweats on a first date, but that's just me).  Beth had NO problem telling the server that they were leaving the restaurant, (place was racist anyway).  What happened to that Beth?  Where did she go?  Some might say, "Randall steamrolled her."  I don't know.  I feel the only thing a person has control of are their own actions.  

Sometimes love isn't enough.  Sometimes you can love someone, but if they're suffocating you, you either leave or be suffocated.

[dcubed]

9 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Not only is he a card carrying member of the Pearson Family Perpetual Box of Mourning, but also the president of the Randall Pearson I Was Abandoned at a Firehouse, Adopted By an Incredibly Loving Family Who Went Way Out of Their Way For Me Always, But Ultimately Never Did it Right Because They Are White and I Actually Have Two Dead Dads So Everybody Should Always Be Mindful of My Issues. 

If I could give 1,000,000 ❤️ to this, I would. Brilliant!

[shoovenbooty]

10 hours ago, Neurochick said:

William wasn't causing a disturbance.  I think the neighbors called the police on him because he was black/and they didn't know him.

I was actually talking about the episode where Randall finds William out on a walk instead of going to his doctor's appointment. They stand outside someone's house having a heated argument about it, and the homeowners come outside to see what's going on. I don't recall the episode where police were called.

[debraran]

8 hours ago, kili said:

We have seen her ask him to stop and allow her to do things or have a break. He doesn't respect that. 

In "Vegas, Baby", she asked him to stop worrying about Deja. He crashes Kate's bachelorette party as Beth is being featured in the show after Deja calls:

Beth:Oh, my God, Randall! You seriously crashed your sister's bachelorette party to tell me that?

Randall: Beth, I know what this sounds like, - but my gut tells me -

Beth: One night. You couldn't give me one night. I sit inside your anxiety every damn minute of every damn day, and you can't give me one night?

I was annoyed that he turned out right to be worried because it just reinforced his behaviour of ignoring Beth and always worrying about everything.

Here is their argument about adopting from "A Father's Advice"

Randall: Do you not want to adopt?

Beth: Does it matter what I want? [Randall- Hey. ]We only ever talk about what you want, Randall. You want to adopt. You want to honor your fathers. I know this has been a weird year for you, and I am trying to be supportive, but this is becoming, like a weird pattern.

Randall: Okay, I hear you. We're partners, in everything. But 37 years ago, my parents chose me, and that's why I'm here with you right now. This isn't going away for me, Beth. You need to get your head around it. 

She's right. They always have the same argument. She starts out objecting that it's never about what she wants and only about what he wants. He responds about being partners, but this time is special and they need to do it his way.  In this instance, she is able to convince him to become a foster parent, but he soon decides he wants to adopt. It didn't go away.

The fight in this episode has been building throughout the seasons. 

Remember when he took the adoption/foster papers to a show they were going too? It was like it couldn't wait.  I remember thinking some might say it was cute but it was more compulsive.

It's funny how we filter, I liked Randall, his goodness but I always thought "He would drive me mad" with his antics. I would feel like I couldn't breath at times. Same with Jack, some fans just saw the kindness, I saw him undermine Rebecca with the kids, especially Kate, act like her time wasn't valuable, tell her they are "vacationing" without asking her thoughts (not really vacation for her) picking the apartment, picking Randall, so many things. My dad was even before Jack's time and didn't act like that so that might be a component also. Rebecca always seemed to be told things, not do things together.

Of course he had many shining moments, but the others never faded for me.

[Marci]

Wow, I have been watching The Gilmore Girls, a show I never watched in its day.  I just noticed a character on it, a 17-year-old boy, Jess, is none other than Milo Ventimiglia!  I didn’t recognize him at all, but now that I know, I see that of course it is him.

[qtpye]

19 hours ago, RachelKM said:

I agree that there is a difference, but I disagree about the kind of difference.  Randall's comment was both belittling and born of spite.  He thought he wasn't getting his way and he jumped to conclusions about why Beth wasn't answering.  So he belittled a thing that was making her happy and told her  to grow up.  It was petty, spiteful, and malicious.

Beth snapped during an argument, after Randall dismissed everything she said about accommodating him and being the one to bend.  Also, as a person who has both lived with people with mental illness and suffers from a mood disorder myself, I can tell you that it isn't just the person with the diagnosis's issue.   Everyone in that household lives with Randall's diagnosis.  And as heartless as it may sound, it would be true for a cancer patient too. 

If someone had been a caring for a person with an illness off and on for over a decade and the person they cared for dismissed his or her efforts and implied the changes made to accommodate the illness, however reasonable or necessary, didn't happen,  I wouldn't begrudge the care taking partner a snap.

My mood disorder happens to be depression.   Due to the nature of depression and the fact that I am not presently living with anyone, my illness is less likely to effect others directly.  However, I can withdraw, become anxious, or short tempered at various times or even in quick succession.   I may not be able to prevent it from happening, but saying I don't mean to be an asshole or neglectful of others doesn't mean I didn't actually cause them distress or hurt.  So they get to have feelings about that. And I don't get to decide that my illness negates those feelings.  

Randall not only dismissed her perspective, he denied the facts outright.  I would have snapped too.  Was it harsh?  Yes.  But she immediately apologized and at least she was directly responding to a comment by Randall and not just digging for the meanest thing she could think of.

It also goes to how people take for granted that women are care givers and don’t have needs of their own. Now most women have to support themselves and their families and can no longer just automatically be there for everyone and it is causing a bit of a crisis in society. It is like how Jack could not fathom Rebecca not wanting kids because all women should love taking care of children.

Speaking of Rebecca, we all know how Kate usually can’t stand her. I hope baby Jack gets well soon because Kate will not enjoy having her mother around 24/7 and Rebecca will accept any lashing out meekly.

Someone has previously mentioned that Rebecca does not stand up for Miguel. The truth is Rebecca rarely stands up for herself in any way. She has raised three entitled brats that think the world owes them because they lost their father 20 years ago so I am not surprised about Randall’s attitude.

[debraran]

2 minutes ago, qtpye said:

It also goes to how people take for granted that women are care givers and don’t have needs of their own. Now most women have to support themselves and their families and can no longer just automatically be there for everyone and it is causing a bit of a crisis in society. It is like how Jack could not fathom Rebecca not wanting kids because all women should love taking care of children.

Speaking of Rebecca, we all know how Kate usually can’t stand her. I hope baby Jack gets well soon because Kate will not enjoy having her mother around 24/7 and Rebecca will accept any lashing out meekly.

Someone has previously mentioned that Rebecca does not stand up for Miguel. The truth is Rebecca rarely stands up for herself in any way. She has raised three entitled brats that think the world owes them because they lost their father 20 years ago so I am not surprised about Randall’s attitude.

Amen to that which is why if the show doesn’t show growth with her and Miguel and let  them be a legitimate couple, I’ll be sad.  If dementia rears it’s head, it’s a cop out to have her live in the past, very trite. 

[Neurochick]

4 hours ago, debraran said:

It's funny how we filter, I liked Randall, his goodness but I always thought "He would drive me mad" with his antics. I would feel like I couldn't breath at times. Same with Jack, some fans just saw the kindness, I saw him undermine Rebecca with the kids, especially Kate, act like her time wasn't valuable, tell her they are "vacationing" without asking her thoughts (not really vacation for her) picking the apartment, picking Randall, so many things. My dad was even before Jack's time and didn't act like that so that might be a component also. Rebecca always seemed to be told things, not do things together.

That's a good point.  I seriously don't get people who practically think Jack and Randall are controlling.  I don't see it that way.   Most of the women I know are doing it all; the men are either not there or they don't give a shit.  I see Randall and Jack as fathers who are involved in their families.  

[GodsBeloved]

19 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

I didn’t get that either. I’ve never had the impression that Beth and Kate were particularly close or that Beth even liked Kate very much, and yet the wedding scenes made it look like they were BFFs. Since when? I get that Beth and Zoe don’t always get along, but it seems way more likely she’d have had Zoe as MOH. I can’t recall whether Zoe was present, so maybe the writers handwaved that away as her being off traveling?

See, I was never under the impression that Beth and Zoe didn't always get along. In Beth's episode kid B & Z appeared ok as well as teen B & Z. And the ride to Mama C's plus their talk in the laundry room showed how close they were. Not sure why they chose not to use adult Zoe when all the other adult were on the scene.

13 hours ago, Neurochick said:

My problem is it's like Beth has become this damsel in distress.  Randall might not listen to her, but Beth just allows it.  

I think the first date scene was way important (I'd never wear sweats on a first date, but that's just me).  Beth had NO problem telling the server that they were leaving the restaurant, (place was racist anyway).  What happened to that Beth?  Where did she go?  Some might say, "Randall steamrolled her."  I don't know.  I feel the only thing a person has control of are their own actions.  

Sometimes love isn't enough.  Sometimes you can love someone, but if they're suffocating you, you either leave or be suffocated.

I wonder when Beth found out about Randall's anxiety attacks. I wonder if that is one reason she's been so accommodating with him. She doesn't or didn't want rock the boat.

She asked Kevin when he was getting out. She confronted William about his motives. She made him tell her about his and Rebecca's past encounter. She boldly confronted Rebecca about her lie about William. She got into with Kate over the "you took my brother from me" or however Kate put it. She confronted Zoe about dating Kevin. She made her case to her boss when she was fired.

I think "that" Beth is still here but she had gotten into the habit of coddling/bending for Randall because of his anxiety and she has finally broken.

As someone has mentioned, I want to know how Beth went from not wanting to see him again to dating him.

Edited March 29, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Tikichick]

On 3/27/2019 at 4:14 PM, izabella said:

The line that really struck me was when Beth said "Our marriage only works when I bend."  That was very much Jack and Rebecca's marriage, which Randall grew up seeing and is now modeling. 

On 3/27/2019 at 4:18 PM, RachelKM said:

Interesting, but I heard something different.  I thought Beth said she was constantly doing all the accommodating and putting him first and said to him "And you let me."    I may have misheard.  But if I heard that correctly, she wasn't framing it as "Randall did this to me and it's all his fault."  She was framing it as "I've made the changes and all the concessions and you don't seem to think there is a problem with that."  In other words, acknowledging she made the choice, but pointing out that Randall has blindly accepted all that she's done as his due without consideration to its effect on her (and later, their family).  

One of the few times in my life I feel I ever gave truly useful advice was at a bridal shower.  Everyone in the room was going on and on about being willing to compromise.  My advice was to recognize when the other person was compromising.  It's very easy to recognize your own effort.  It is somewhat harder to recognize the effort by your partner, especially when you are getting your way.  And it seems, through most of their relationship, Randall has gotten his way.

Bolding is mine.  I don't see Randall's unconscious acceptance of everyone yielding to him as indicative of Rebecca and Jack's marriage, but of Rebecca and Jack's parenting, mostly Rebecca's, when it came to Randall.   Even when Randall sees that others are yielding to make way for his wants/needs/flights of fancy he has always accepted it as being the right choice for the situation because he sees it as the highest priority trumps.  He simply cannot see that the merits of other priorities would ever trump his own.

[Fruitypebbles]

Just want to point out on behalf of Rebecca and Jack that at the dance, they did seek out Randall in the library.  They made him go back and dance with the girl he was supposedly with. So there was an attempt to teach him consideration and point out his obligations to others.  I think that was a great scene.  As another viewer pointed out in this thread, it showed Randall's weak points as having been with him since childhood/adolescence. We all have faults and parents are not always able to erase them even though they may try.

[Tikichick]

On 3/27/2019 at 5:05 PM, Ohmo said:

Genuine question because I don't want it to seem like I'm coming "at" you. but do you believe that Beth has any responsibility in this situation?

For me, I can completely get behind that Randall has plenty of work to do, but so does Beth.  I'm not clapping for Beth, nor cheering her on.  If anything, I'm not Team Randall or Team Beth.  I'm Team Divorce or at least Team Separation.  Both of them seem so entrenched in "I'm doing this.  It's my turn to do this.  But I want to do this."  They are acting like children---both of them, and I think they need to get away from each other and stop keeping score.  Maybe stop thinking that they both have shit that doesn't stink.

I can totally agree that Randall is entitled (although I would not call him a manchild), but Beth also acts entitled, especially when I think about her childhood.  She talked about Randall having a flight of fancy (which he did), but so did she---her childhood.  Her father was a postal carrier who adored her and probably worked his ass off to pay for that training.  And then she disrespects him (and her mother), by saying her mother took ballet away?  Ohhh...Miss Bethany Clark ain't all that.  GTFO

If she wants to come after Randall for his flaws in their marriage, by all means.  There are many, but she better also be looking at herself and her actions in the marriage.  Because it's coming across to me as "I (Beth) have been put upon and disrespected by mean old Randall for 20 years.  I have done everything and been everything for 20 years, and I'm utterly without fault or blame."  No.

For them to survive, I think they have to at least separate, so they can both think about their lives, what each wants, and if they are capable of working as a unit.  It might very well be that they are better co-parents (which I think they will be good at) then they are romantic partners.

Are you saying Beth had her turn in childhood, so now she should be fine with it being Randall's turn?   IMO it's not appropriate to hold childhood Beth culpable for singleminded pursuit of her dreams and say that justifies adult Randall to do the same.  I definitely feel childhood Randall had his flights of fancy more than adequately responded to -- much to the detriment of adult Randall in many ways.  

I do see Beth as coming after herself for the flaws in her marriage, big time.  She very much regrets allowing Randall's flights of fancy to run roughshod over their family all these years and deeply regrets not standing up to him more firmly.  She's also keenly stung by the fact that no matter how many times she's pointed out this same issue to Randall, he refuses to acknowledge it or even sees it.  That has to wound to the core when you feel that your partner can't make the effort to hear, to look and to learn after all these years -- so much so that he flatly denies the issue exists at all.  

I'm not Team Beth, Team Randall, Team Separation or Team Divorce.  I want to see Beth force Randall to live up to who he thinks he is and truly yield the control and focus of priority for once in his life.  In the end I think it just may end up lifting a tremendous amount of anxiety off of him.    

[memememe76]

3 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

As someone has mentioned, I want to know how Beth went from not wanting to see him again to dating him.

At the end when Beth discovered the Randall's blank cheque in her pocket, she gave a small smile. I think Beth did something good in him back then, which likely caused her to reconsider her initial impressions. I mean, I'm sure we will eventually get the scene where Young Beth breaks down at a Payless Shoes sale. 

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, Fruitypebbles said:

Just want to point out on behalf of Rebecca and Jack that at the dance, they did seek out Randall in the library.  They made him go back and dance with the girl he was supposedly with. So there was an attempt to teach him consideration and point out his obligations to others.  I think that was a great scene.  As another viewer pointed out in this thread, it showed Randall's weak points as having been with him since childhood/adolescence. We all have faults and parents are not always able to erase them even though they may try.

I agree, and add that Randall is Randall largely because of his origin.  Early in the first date, he describes himself as the baby that was dropped off at the fire station. It's that much a part of his identity, he spills it right away to someone he wants to impress. Everything he does as a child onward is to try to ensure that he is never dropped off again. I may be wrong, but I think that will circle back to him seeing the light with Beth in the present and doing what he needs to do to keep her in his life.

[albinerhawk]

Well I finally watched the episode last night and read through all the comments. I used to watch it as soon as possible, but I really didn't want to watch an entire hour of a marital argument. 

I have to say, that I mostly Team Beth, but...I think one argument really was unfair to Randall. As they are having nachos, Beth confesses to Randall that she fears disconnecting with Tess when her maternity leave is over. Randall thoughtfully considers her comment and says they can try and work with that. Then she kind of blows up that it would mean Beth having to make the sacrifice. Now that seemed unreasonable to me. Beth didn't say she was concerned about Tess not having a parent at home and going to daycare, she was concerned about her personal relationship with Tess. Even if Randall were to quit his day job and be a SAHP, Beth would still be working and not spending that time with Tess. I felt Randall was being generous in saying that if Beth was concerned then they could do with less income, but he never told her to.

[Artsda]

On 3/28/2019 at 12:57 AM, MsJamieDornan said:

And it has been mentioned during the show how big the damn house is,but it never seems to have very many bedrooms.

This annoys me so much. The house is a mansion with 3 bedrooms. Kevin had to go in the basement and William took Tess's room? Makes no sense they couldn't just say William was in a guest room or Kevin was in a guest room. 

[TwoGrayTabbies]

13 minutes ago, Artsda said:

This annoys me so much. The house is a mansion with 3 bedrooms. Kevin had to go in the basement and William took Tess's room? Makes no sense they couldn't just say William was in a guest room or Kevin was in a guest room. 

The house annoys me, too.  Additionally, Beth told William that Randall fixed it up himself, so it “didn’t cost a penny.”  Did Randall forge equipment and material from raw materials harvested in the back yard?  The house makes no damn sense.

[Ohiopirate02]

23 minutes ago, Artsda said:

This annoys me so much. The house is a mansion with 3 bedrooms. Kevin had to go in the basement and William took Tess's room? Makes no sense they couldn't just say William was in a guest room or Kevin was in a guest room. 

This show really annoys me with the ever shifting size of Beth and Randall's house, to their ever-shifting bank account balance where they magically always have the money for whatever whim hits Randall during this weeks episode (but not enough money for the "right" nanny), to the ever-changing size of both the states of New Jersey and Pennsylvania.  I know that all TV shows have continuity errors especially ones that have run for many seasons, but these are all examples of lazy writing.  This show is getting close to Golden Girls level of just making stuff for an episode.

[Lunula]

On 3/27/2019 at 5:05 PM, Ohmo said:

For them to survive, I think they have to at least separate, so they can both think about their lives, what each wants, and if they are capable of working as a unit.  It might very well be that they are better co-parents (which I think they will be good at) then they are romantic partners.

Gotta say, I'm kind of weirded out that anyone thinks they should separate or divorce over what they are currently going through. That's just marriage. Good and bad. Thick and thin. All that stuff. I've been married for going on 22 years and we had long stretches where we were pissed at each other, didn't see eye to eye and had issues - but that didn't mean we had to separate to stay together. Perhaps it's my old school thinking, but I can't see throwing away a marriage that has been mostly successful and happy because something ugly comes up. Neither people in my marriage are overly talky about things that bother us, and we've had some nasty fights when things come to a head, but in the end...I love this man. Not for just five years, not just when things are good, not just life is great - but always. Not saying people should stay together just because they got married - but up to this point, Beth & Randall have been happy - though perhaps not completely fulfilled.

IMO, you fight for a relationship such as this. Warts and all. 

[alexvillage]

19 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

to the ever-changing size of both the states of New Jersey and Pennsylvania

OMG, this! Reminds me of 24 where going around tow, from one end to another would take like 16 minutes.

[ams1001]

On 3/27/2019 at 1:26 PM, Mrs.Monkey said:

Are you even allowed to pay by check at a restaurant? And how is writing a check going to prove he has the funds to cover dinner? I can write a check for a million dollars but it doesn't mean I have that money in my account.  It made no sense.

The only time I've seen someone pay by check at a restaurant was my brother's birthday several years ago, and that was arranged ahead of time. (It was at a local place that normally only takes cash; I don't think they even have the capability to take credit cards (or my parents would have used one for that dinner), but they'll take a check for a larger party if you pre-arrange it; and I think my mom said they told her the address had to be in-state).

I'm only a few years older than the triplets. I wrote a lot more checks back then but even by the time they would have started college (the year after I graduated) it was credit or debit for most things (the check was to pay the credit card bill!). 

[emjohnson03]

I really liked this episode.

I'm single and hate to say it but I can see myself being a Beth. I'm a HUGE people pleaser to the point where I give up myself because I'm always with that person or care about that person so much I give up myself for them. I felt like the whole thing was SO real that we give and give and then we realize what is it that we are now? What matters to us? What are we as individuals? My parents went to counseling after myself and siblings left the house because they had to figure out who they were without kids. Marriage really is a navigation through times and changes and even though I don't know it personally, I  KNOW it's alot of work.

While Beth might have not fought fair she finally voiced herself. 

I actually really liked the Rebecca and Jack flashback to their fight that led to their mini separation. Felt they were making things very parallel to the situation that Beth and Randall are going through and I like when they do that. Plus I love the teenage years of this show so much.

I'm excited for next week. I like that not everything is perfect and there is tension because in reality nothing is,

[theatremouse]

On 3/27/2019 at 6:25 AM, GodsBeloved said:

Why couldn't we see Beth's siblings? I mean Beth is standing there and who is next to her? Kate!! Why not her sister(s)/Zoe?

Zoe was standing next to Kate.

I'm going to quibble with everyone assuming because of where Kate stood she was maid of honor. I've been in a couple weddings now that had no maid of honor, no best man. Just bridesmaids and groomsmen. And how people were standing was based on height in one, and the other, basically random and not decided more than 30 seconds before we walked. I know this isn't the most common setup, but it's not unheard of either. I don't think the wedding scene was conclusive if Kate were MOH or just in the wedding party and standing wherever.

I did not enjoy this episode at all; however I will give Sterling K Brown credit for being an amazing actor. When he played 25 year old Randall his posture, his walk, all changed and immediately read younger to me. That was well done even if the rest of it was so frustrating to watch I had to stop and start a bunch.

[JKL845]

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 2:40 PM, Lunula said:

Gotta say, I'm kind of weirded out that anyone thinks they should separate or divorce over what they are currently going through. That's just marriage. Good and bad. Thick and thin. All that stuff. I've been married for going on 22 years and we had long stretches where we were pissed at each other, didn't see eye to eye and had issues - but that didn't mean we had to separate to stay together. Perhaps it's my old school thinking, but I can't see throwing away a marriage that has been mostly successful and happy because something ugly comes up. Neither people in my marriage are overly talky about things that bother us, and we've had some nasty fights when things come to a head, but in the end...I love this man. Not for just five years, not just when things are good, not just life is great - but always. Not saying people should stay together just because they got married - but up to this point, Beth & Randall have been happy - though perhaps not completely fulfilled.

IMO, you fight for a relationship such as this. Warts and all. 

If it was real and not a tv show I don't think anyone would be advocating for divorce. Their problems shown so far are very fixable. However, they are trying to hint that they divorce by what they have shown of the future. So if they are divorced in the future, from how bad I feel this episode was, I'd prefer they just go ahead and do it and not prolong their misery and ours! I didn't like or recognize this Beth and Randall. This Beth that has no problem rejecting Randall over and over again and still gets him to come back for more, puts up with 7 years of spending EVERY Sunday with his mother and doesn't say anything?! That is not the Beth I know and love. She is not a pushover and they are playing games with my favorite couple on the show. Not buying it. 

Edited March 31, 2019 by JKL845