S03.E17: R&B

[Ohmo]

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

It's one thing for your boss to silence you, but if your husband is silencing you, if you don't feel safe enough to speak, then maybe you're married to the wrong person.  If Beth chose not to say anything that's on her.  

ITA.  Beth silenced herself, beginning in college.  I think Randall was oblivious in college, and the way that he pursued Beth, while flawed, was also very Randall.  Pick a woman and literally make a relationship happen.  Study organelles in biology and do well on the test.  Plan and execute.

Beth, on the other hand, saw flaws in their relationship very early on (even with her comment about people wanting them to date because they were both black), the seven years, the break-in a new boyfriend comment, the dynamic between Randall and Rebecca.  Those were all signs that she ignored or explained away.  That's on her.  As to the "creepy" factor that has also been discussed, we might think it creepy, but Randall and Rebecca did not.  Beth had a choice to not have to deal with creepy: don't marry Randall.  I'm not suggesting that Randall isn't odd, but Randall gets to be odd if he wishes to be.  Beth had plenty of warning on that front.

[jmonique]

17 minutes ago, memememe76 said:

Randall may actually enjoy spending time with his mother, and may even think Beth would too. Not everyone thinks it's a chore to spend time with their parents. I stayed at home while going to school, so I didn't exactly want to spend more time with my folks. But now that I am out of the house, I do see them pretty much every weekend (sat or sun). My cousins who went away to school would take the bus back on the weekend to stay with their parents. I don't see anything wrong with that. 

But did you take your parents out on dates?

6 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

ITA.  Beth silenced herself, beginning in college.  I think Randall was oblivious in college, and the way that he pursued Beth, while flawed, was also very Randall.  Pick a woman and literally make a relationship happen.  Study organelles in biology and do well on the test.  Plan and execute.

Beth, on the other hand, saw flaws in their relationship very early on (even with her comment about people wanting them to date because they were both black), the seven years, the break-in a new boyfriend comment, the dynamic between Randall and Rebecca.  Those were all signs that she ignored or explained away.  That's on her.  As to the "creepy" factor that has also been discussed, we might think it creepy, but Randall and Rebecca did not.  Beth had a choice to not have to deal with creepy: don't marry Randall.  I'm not suggesting that Randall isn't odd, but Randall gets to be odd if he wishes to be.  Beth had plenty of warning on that front.

But that doesn't absolve Randall of his priority being ... himself. Granted, we haven't seen the entirety of their relationship, but this "Beth let herself be run over" mind-set doesn't excuse Randall doing it, or gaslighting her when she finally puts herself first. She laid it all out for him and how she feels, and he stopped, took a beat ... and completely rejected her feelings. Again.

[ShadowFacts]

1 minute ago, Ohmo said:

ITA.  Beth silenced herself, beginning in college.  I think Randall was oblivious in college, and the way that he pursued Beth, while flawed, was also very Randall.  Pick a woman and literally make a relationship happen.  Study organelles in biology and do well on the test.  Plan and execute.

Beth, on the other hand, saw flaws in their relationship very early on (even with her comment about people wanting them to date because they were both black), the seven years, the break-in a new boyfriend comment, the dynamic between Randall and Rebecca.  Those were all signs that she ignored or explained away.  That's on her.  As to the "creepy" factor that has also been discussed, we might think it creepy, but Randall and Rebecca did not.  Beth had a choice to not have to deal with creepy: don't marry Randall.  I'm not suggesting that Randall isn't odd, but Randall gets to be odd if he wishes to be.  Beth had plenty of warning on that front.

She may have ignored or explained away the flaws, or she may have accepted them. I felt like their vows were sincerely meant by both of them, and I think she said, 'I choose you always' - but that may have been Randall's line because I mix up details.  Anyway, they had many seemingly happy years, she wasn't coerced into the relationship or marriage, she was not miserable enough to make major changes to their dynamic, she managed his over-the-top-ness, would tell him to slow his roll, etc. Now it has built up to a breaking point. I think they can survive this, if they both want to make changes, but maybe they don't. 

3 minutes ago, jmonique said:

But did you take your parents out on dates?

By that time they were together 7 years and Beth was probably pretty integrated into the family. It wasn't like Rebecca was an intruder on hot dates. My daughter was with her now-husband 6 years before they got married and they not uncommonly would invite me to movies, meals out, shopping.  It was very natural.

[memememe76]

But did you take your parents out on dates?

I am not sure why the golf thing is considered a date. They were planning to spend that day with Rebecca. When Beth suggested they go to that golf place, I am assuming Randall assumed that Rebecca would come along. 

[Runningwild]

4 hours ago, PRgal said:

Maybe it's just how I was raised, but I wouldn't have showed up at the restaurant in a school sweatshirt (wearing a school sweatshirt is suuuuuuuuuch a freshman/frosh thing to do!!!) and jean skirt.  I mean, she would have told her roommate/floormates where she was going and they would have suggested something to wear, right?  And if SHE didn't have something, I'm sure she could have BORROWED something from someone.

Also, 2017-ish Beth:  I would have been firm and said, "no, Randall, I'm going to that hotel room to binge on Living Single and eat bon bons.  And that's final." 

We don’t know that Randall told Beth where they were going. Which to me, puts the blame on Randall. You know you’re going to take her to a fancy restaurant and she’s wearing a sweatshirt? And you don’t think to mention the restaurant to her? To me, that’s just another way of Randall trying to look like a martyr.

[NUguy514]

10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Also in favor of Team Beth: like Beth, a public proposal on the Jumbotron at a Pirates game would get an automatic HELL NO response from me too.

Oh god, if the guy I was dating proposed on a damn Jumbotron, he would get my iciest, WASP-iest glare and a flat "no" in response.  I've always felt a proposal should be just between the two of you; if it's a public thing, then it feels like the one person is being pressured by the other person, which is not how it should be, Randall.

11 hours ago, Belle Fleures said:

A freshman in college is a young adult, certainly old enough to start thinking seriously about love and the future of marriage.  Dressing right, gifting flowers, and taking someone to a quality restaurant instead of a McDonald's parking lot is not so much a "grand gesture" as it is having class.

Dressing right doesn't mean wearing a suit; a pair of nice pants and a nice shirt are perfect.  Gifting flowers is great, but blabbering that you bought four different kinds because you weren't sure what the perfect ones were is not; it's too much.  Taking someone to a quality restaurant when you're a freshman in college is nice, but a fancy restaurant that assumes two young black students can't pay for a meal is disproportionate; Cheesecake Factory or Benihana or something would be fine (and I never said a McDonald's parking lot would be appropriate, so don't put those words in my mouth).  Going overboard is not necessarily classy; it's just going overboard.

10 hours ago, RachelKM said:

And yeah, that dinner was WAY over the top for 18 year old freshmen in college.  At that age, Olive Garden was a bit fancy (and out of my budget). I would have been at a loss for what to do if a guy showed up for a first date, a first date with almost no prior social interaction, in a suit and took me to a dinner at a fine dining restaurant.  Heck, I'm a 40 year old attorney and I'd still find that to be a bit over the top. 

Or this!  All of this!

8 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Randall: “l’m going to find my birth father, and it will consume my entire life.”  Beth: “l’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I found my birth father and he’s an almost homeless guy with cancer. I’m going to move him in with us and have him sleep in one of the girls’ rooms.”  Beth: “I’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I’m not the favorite at work anymore, so I’m going to quit my million dollar job with no other prospect for income.”  Beth: “l’m with you baby.”

Randall: “Because of my feelings of guilt at the fact that I had a nice upbringing, I’m going to foster a child from the streets who has a multitude of problems.”  Beth: “I’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I’m going to sink most of our money into the rundown death trap building where I found my father and I’m going to need you to help me.”  Beth: “I’m with you baby.”

Randall: “I’m going to run for City Council in Philly, despite us not living there, and it being a six hour round trip drive every day, with very little pay.”  Beth: “l’m with you baby.”

Beth:  “l would like to teach a few dance classes at night just so I have something to do that I enjoy.”  Randall: “How can you be so selfish?”

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Regarding Beth wearing a sweatshirt on their first date - when Randall called to ask her out, he said he would pick her up at 7pm the next night. He never said where he was taking her. I assumed that when he picked her up, (1) he still didn’t tell her where they were going because he wanted it to be a surprise and (2) he was so excited that he didn’t really pay much attention to what she was wearing. I imagine his inner monologue when he arrived was something along the lines of “OMG OMG OMG I’m here and we are about to go on our first date! Be cool, Randall, be cool. What did Kevin say I should do? I should definitely open the door for her. Dad always did gentlemanly things like that for mom. I can’t wait for mom to meet Beth. Maybe I can see if mom wants to come visit next weekend so I can introduce them. Or I can see if Beth wants to come home to meet mom and then we can have dinner, watch a movie, maybe play some board games. I wonder what Beth’s favorite board game is. Do you think she’s the top hat when she plays Monopoly? Oh, crap. She’s looking at me. Did she ask me a question?”

Yeah, I think there's a 0% chance Randall told her where they were going beforehand.

It's very telling that Randall's initial vows/manifesto weren't about Beth at all.  Those "perfect" vows, that grand gesture?  All.  About.  Randall.

Edited March 27, 2019 by NUguy514

[Ohmo]

10 minutes ago, jmonique said:

But that doesn't absolve Randall of his priority being ... himself. Granted, we haven't seen the entirety of their relationship, but this "Beth let herself be run over" mind-set doesn't excuse Randall doing it, or gaslighting her when she finally puts herself first. She laid it all out for him and how she feels, and he stopped, took a beat ... and completely rejected her feelings. Again.

OK, but Beth is framing things in terms of "You (Randall) have done this to me, " as if she has had no agency in the situation for 20 years.  She had agency.  She was educated, had a job, was not abused, neglected, or otherwise impaired.  This was not an arranged or forced marriage.  Randall bears responsibility for his actions, but Beth is also responsible for her inaction in the marriage.  Things were not "done" to her with no choice in the mater.  She made choices (or did not make choices).  Beth allowed things to be done without challenging Randall.  She decided to marry Randall when she had plenty of things that gave her pause.   "You did this to me" is not accurate.  If she's going to be angry at Randall, she also has to be angry at herself.

[GodsBeloved]

13 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

OK, but Beth is framing things in terms of "You (Randall) have done this to me, " as if she has had no agency in the situation for 20 years.  She had agency.  

I agree with this. She has agency but she's flawed, as am I, when it comes to being direct at times. In Our Little Island Girl, Zoe flat out said Beth lays down/clams up and Zoe wanted to know if Beth would be with her in telling Mama C she needed to retire. Beth was beating around the bush and Zoe came out and said they thought it was time for mama to retire. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Beantown Gal]

5 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

Nitpick.

Why couldn't we see Beth's siblings? I mean Beth is standing there and who is next to her? Kate!! Why not her sister(s)/Zoe?

This is as irritating as Randall proclaiming "We're getting another Pearson" when he got the news that Kate was pregnant. No Randall, you are getting a Damon!

Rant over.

I came here to post a similar question! It was so odd to me that Beth chose Kate as her MOH! I was immediately like: "where's Zoe? Where's Sophie? Where are Beth's other siblings?

[ZeroDiscipline]

I felt like Chrissy Metz looked a little smaller in the wedding scene? Like maybe they filmed this kind of recently and she has lost some noticeable weight? She looked really pretty, regardless. 

[nlkm9]

1 hour ago, bybrandy said:

Ordinarily, I would agree with you.  In a place where a space belongs to both me and somebody else and I am the one that needs space I am the one that also needs to vacate that space.  However, in this situation I do not because Randall has already made a space for himself by installing a cot or a bed or whatever in his office.  He has another free space to go to and Beth does not.  In a fight that they are having that Beth isn't making enough money and her job isn't important because of that telling her to then go to a hotel when Randall has a free place to sleep is just adding more strain to a strained situation.

One time, once, I sent my college roommate home when we were in a fight.   My father had died and my mother had moved cross country and we had a friendship ending fight (which was no doubt caused by situational depression I had based on the previous two things) and I needed space but I no longer had a place I could go.  She had a house and a family a couple hours down the road.  

To me Randall's and Beth's situation is that.  Randall said some things that were so hurtful that she needed space and he already had a space.   So he should go there.  

I absolutely get what you are saying, and I get that I'm in the  minority but in this case I just don't see where it makes sense for Beth to go to a hotel when Randall has another safe place to sleep, even if she is the one with the problem.
 

traditionally a lot of politicians of varying levels have sleeper sofas in their office in case of emergencies, crisis--I dont see that necessarily as a bad thing.

[nlkm9]

Just now, ZeroDiscipline said:

I felt like Chrissy Metz looked a little smaller in the wedding scene? Like maybe they filmed this kind of recently and she has lost some noticeable weight? She looked really pretty, regardless. 

just thinking out loud--I guess if in real life, she lost a ton of weight they would work around it and make it a story...i cant imagine its in her contract that she stay heavy or the opposite. I didnt notice any difference but have always found her pretty. For all we know they have been padding her for the pregnancy story and she has lost weight.

[GodsBeloved]

11 minutes ago, Beantown Gal said:

I came here to post a similar question! It was so odd to me that Beth chose Kate as her MOH! I was immediately like: "where's Zoe? Where's Sophie? Where are Beth's other siblings?

I think Kevin had been divorced/separated from Sophie for 12 years in season 1. They were 36 in season 1 so Kevin and Sophie had been apart since they were 24. I think Beth and Randall were at least 25 (met @ 18, dated at least 7 years) when they married so that explains why Sophie wasn't there.

Edited March 27, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Racj82]

2 hours ago, Biggie B said:

When I saw the title of this episode, "R&B," I thought it meant "rhythm and blues." At one point, current day Randall said to Beth that their rhythm was off and had been off for some time, and certainly both of them are experiencing the blues right now. It wasn't until reading this thread that I saw that "R&B" meant Randall and Beth. D'oh!!

I'm intrigued by the lavender-scented toilet paper that Kevin likes. I'm old enough to remember when toilet paper came in different colors (pastel yellow, pink, blue, or green) in addition to white, but I've never experienced scented toilet paper. Interesting!

The title can mean two things.

[Infie]

For me, I didn't find the anxiety attack comment nearly as gasp-worthy as it seems so many others did.  I live with someone who has PTSD and a child with anxiety, and it is fucking *exhausting* being the rock.  It's not a blame thing - it's just a fact.  You can't blame the person for their brain chemistry, and you have no choice but to accomodate it, because it's not a choice that they are making to be that way.  But the accomodation is one-way only.  My family will occasionally acknowledge this - 'you have to deal with a lot', and they lament that it's not different, but until either their brains spontaneously repair themselves or I decide that they aren't worth it - neither things that will happen - not a damned thing will change.   

Beth *has* had to be the one who bends, and Randall can't see it because from his perspective he keeps saying - 'no, go do it your way' - but in a way that makes it clear that he's hurt, which puts the onus back on Beth to make him better.  Randall demands the truth and then withdraws in hurt when he gets it, and that makes Beth have to chase him to soothe his damage.  I actually thought her demonstration with the nachos was brilliant, and what was Randall's response?  'I'll never eat nachos again, then.'  God, Randall, way to miss the fucking point.  And what did Beth have to do?  Take his hand and apologize and lead him upstairs and gloss everything over again.  Which is exactly what he did when Beth pointed out that she actually hasn't had choices for the most part.  She said it bluntly, but it's true - Randall is the one with the anxiety attacks and the breakdowns and so she is the one who has to bend.  Again - this is a fact.  It doesn't have to be a hurtful fact, if the people involved are willing to admit that *it is the case*.  It's not an insult.  Sometimes it's just true. 

If Randall didn't see his anxiety as a negative, as a weakness, then the discussion could have continued.  "Look, Beth, I know that you've had challenges that I didn't, like dealing with my anxiety, but that doesn't make everything bad, does it?  Do you really think that you've had no options at all?  Haven't I always been open to talking?"  -- or "That's a low blow, Beth, you know that isn't something I can control.  Can we fight about something I can control, maybe?"  etc etc.  Instead, when she points it out, he's horribly insulted and leaves, back into his martyrdom, because she's making a point that he cannot actually dispute or rewrite in his own head to his personal narrative. 

I love this show for being real, but sometimes it hurts to watch. 

ETF: one doesn't 'each' nachos

Edited March 27, 2019 by Infie

[3 is enough]

So I finally figured out what is bothering me so much about the last few episodes: 

There is no balance between good and bad- it's all bad.

Before there was always at least one of the Big 3 who had something positive going on in their lives:

Randall has a breakdown, but Kevin gets rave reviews for his role in a play and Ron Howard casts him in a film.

Deja is causing problems for Randall, but Kate is getting married.

And so on.  At the very least there would be a feel good flashback.

But now, Randall and Beth's marriage is in serious trouble, Kate has a fragile preemie, and Kevin has relapsed. 

As young Beth said to Randall, it's just too much.

Edited March 27, 2019 by 3 is enough

[jmonique]

51 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

OK, but Beth is framing things in terms of "You (Randall) have done this to me, " as if she has had no agency in the situation for 20 years.  She had agency.  She was educated, had a job, was not abused, neglected, or otherwise impaired.  This was not an arranged or forced marriage.  Randall bears responsibility for his actions, but Beth is also responsible for her inaction in the marriage.  Things were not "done" to her with no choice in the mater.  She made choices (or did not make choices).  Beth allowed things to be done without challenging Randall.  She decided to marry Randall when she had plenty of things that gave her pause.   "You did this to me" is not accurate.  If she's going to be angry at Randall, she also has to be angry at herself.

And for me, this circles back around to Randall disregarding her request for space and forcing her into a confrontation about this immediately after she had given up another night to further his latest whim, and he responded by belittling and demeaning her, then rolling up into the bedroom spoiling for a fight like she did HIM wrong.

She reacted emotionally, already on the defensive after being told to grow up by a manchild who’s spent the past three years taking on and abandoning projects. This is raw - and yeah, she is obviously angry at herself for not speaking up earlier. But as soon as she did, he put down her desire to miss one meal and lashed out when she was late.

Beth can’t win because she isn’t putting herself on the back burner, as Rebecca did.

[camom]

I thought Randall had decided to go to a black college, but apparently he and Beth were the only black students at their school.  I'm confused.

[GodsBeloved]

Here's a question. I wonder why Randall immediately thought Beth was ignoring his calls. Why didn't he think at some point, preferably, immediately that Beth was in an accident? When I call someone, mostly Mom and expect her to pick up, if she doesn't, my mind goes wild and I have to calm down. That's especially true when she's travelling on the road.

I know it was done for drama but still it's glaring to me that he jumped to "Beth is ignoring me" instead of "OMG has something happened to Beth". He didn't give her the benefit of the doubt and so far I haven't seen a reason for him not to.

4 minutes ago, camom said:

I thought Randall had decided to go to a black college, but apparently he and Beth were the only black students at their school.  I'm confused.

He did. He was going to Morehouse I think but after Jack died, he stayed home because of Rebecca.

[ShadowFacts]

3 minutes ago, camom said:

I thought Randall had decided to go to a black college, but apparently he and Beth were the only black students at their school.  I'm confused.

After Jack died and Randall was concerned about how his mother was handling it, we saw him making a phone call to the admissions office of Howard (?) saying he wanted to defer.  We never saw him discuss it with Rebecca or anyone, the next we saw, he was showing up at Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh. 

[Beantown Gal]

42 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I think Kevin had been divorced/separated from Sophie for 12 years in season 1. They were 36 in season 1 so Kevin and Sophie had been apart since they were 24. I think Beth and Randall were at least 25 (met @ 18, dated at least 7 years) when they married so that explains why Sophie wasn't there.

That would explain it. Thank you.

[Violetgoblin6]

4 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

Maybe the ginger beer was a Jamaican thing that she grew up with?  I lived in PA for a few years.  I remember birch beer.  Nasty (to me, anyhow), it smelled like Mr. Clean.

I'm with you- watching people argue on television is NOT entertaining.  

I grew up in the Philadelphia suburbs and now live squarely between Allentown and Philadelphia. Birch Beer is totally a thing here-red or clear (Kutztown Soda Company is known for it, also the Pennsylvania Dutch brand). I prefer the red it's absolutely delicious to me. Not sure if it's also a Pittsburgh thing? 

My dad adores ginger beer, like others have stated, it's definitely Jamaican in origin. But man, nachos and ginger beer (or birch!) sounds delicious. 

In other topics, as someone who has been in Beth's shoes, I completely understand. 

Before I married my husband (my high school sweet heart) I was asked out by this guy I met on my birthday. He seemed great on paper, excellent career, very wealthy, his own home, relatively attractive. I asked what we were going to do on our first date and he announced he'd made reservations at a ritzy, very expensive restaurant on the river and tickets to a play nearby. I don't know. Possibly my own personal deficit, but it kind of made me uncomfortable. After all I'd just met him. I told him that perhaps that was too much, too extreme for a first date. He greeted me with chocolate roses and a ruler with his company's logo embossed on top. Lol. 

We ended up at a more casual Italian bistro, he was dressed to the nines. At dinner he discussed all the things we'd be doing that spring; horse and carriage, eating ice cream on his tail gate watching the cows, going to the city for shows...too much. It was like he was proposing that stuff simply for the sake of being a "romantic", which he eventually admitted he was doing as, "it works". 

Also, Beth really did not seem too thrilled about marrying Randall. He also strives hard for what he wants, grades, the lucrative career, finding William, and marrying Beth. 

Also, Beth has never seemed thrilled with Randall's family, Kevin definitely, but also Rebecca and even Kate. 

[izabella]

5 minutes ago, jmonique said:

Beth can’t win because she isn’t putting herself on the back burner, as Rebecca did.

The line that really struck me was when Beth said "Our marriage only works when I bend."  That was very much Jack and Rebecca's marriage, which Randall grew up seeing and is now modeling. 

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Ohmo said:

OK, but Beth is framing things in terms of "You (Randall) have done this to me, " as if she has had no agency in the situation for 20 years.  She had agency.  She was educated, had a job, was not abused, neglected, or otherwise impaired.  This was not an arranged or forced marriage.  Randall bears responsibility for his actions, but Beth is also responsible for her inaction in the marriage.  Things were not "done" to her with no choice in the mater.  She made choices (or did not make choices).  Beth allowed things to be done without challenging Randall.  She decided to marry Randall when she had plenty of things that gave her pause.   "You did this to me" is not accurate.  If she's going to be angry at Randall, she also has to be angry at herself.

Interesting, but I heard something different.  I thought Beth said she was constantly doing all the accommodating and putting him first and said to him "And you let me."    I may have misheard.  But if I heard that correctly, she wasn't framing it as "Randall did this to me and it's all his fault."  She was framing it as "I've made the changes and all the concessions and you don't seem to think there is a problem with that."  In other words, acknowledging she made the choice, but pointing out that Randall has blindly accepted all that she's done as his due without consideration to its effect on her (and later, their family).  

One of the few times in my life I feel I ever gave truly useful advice was at a bridal shower.  Everyone in the room was going on and on about being willing to compromise.  My advice was to recognize when the other person was compromising.  It's very easy to recognize your own effort.  It is somewhat harder to recognize the effort by your partner, especially when you are getting your way.  And it seems, through most of their relationship, Randall has gotten his way.

Edited March 27, 2019 by RachelKM
its not it's

[Sharyn]

6 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I don't think she was hating on him or calling him a weak person. I think she was pointing out that she wasn't in a position to follow her dreams when she was supporting him through the periods when he was falling apart with anxiety.

My biggest issue with it was that Randall has had very few anxiety attacks in the time they've been together. He had one when she was pregnant with Tess, and he had another in season one when the pressure at his job was insane, and William was dying.

But for many years, he was able to handle an extremely stressful job, and being a father. On the list of reasons why Beth wasn't in a position to pursue his dreams, I'd put Randall's anxiety quite low on the list. It was an unnecessary jab, IMO.

True, but Randall has a life-long issue with anxiety.  Remember Jack cupping his hands around Randall's face to soothe and console him, much like Randall did to William, his birth dad as he was dying.  Just because they've only shown several anxiety attacks (on the show), there's the underlying theme that Randall is riddled with anxiety.    

[Katy M]

13 hours ago, Belle Fleures said:

A freshman in college is a young adult, certainly old enough to start thinking seriously about love and the future of marriage.  Dressing right, gifting flowers, and taking someone to a quality restaurant instead of a McDonald's parking lot is not so much a "grand gesture" as it is having class.

If you're going to do a fancier first date in college, you need to give the other person a heads-up, which I guess he did. But, IIRC, it really isn't the norm.  Most college kids don't even have the money for more than a casual family restaurant at most.  More likely pizza or fast food, and that doesn't mean they don't have class.  It means they don't have money.

[Biggie B]

When Beth said she and Randall were the only two black students at the school, I didn't think that was literal. More like, such a small number of students that they all know of each other.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Biggie B

[Ohiopirate02]

Another thing about Randall in this episode that really bugged was his demeanor when he entered the bedroom.  He charges into the room ready to throw down instead of groveling like he should be.  He was the one in the wrong for what happened that night, but it was like he spent the whole drive back convincing himself that it was Beth.  

[WasabiGreenPeas]

Ugh.   So much going in this episode that I think I'm alone in not being on either team.  

Beth just realized *recently* that she wanted to return to dance, so how could Randall have supported her through a decision she just made?   Had she not been let go at her company or blown her big job interview she would more likely have been at either one of those places. 

She has supported him through a lot of recent whimsical decisions (William, purchasing the building, running for a city council position), but the only one she truly vocalized opposition to was the last one.   The resentment was brewing from his ignoring her - that was a completely selfish move on his part and would piss me off, too.

What I'm infinitely confused about is why everyone thinks it's a good idea for Beth to be starting her dance instruction NOW.  "She should get her turn to be selfish..." seems a little like two wrongs making a right.  It doesn't make much sense for both of the parents to be MIA right now.   I think she needs to get to the bottom of his horrible decision to run for office and where that ultimately will be leading before reclaiming her dance passion.  Or saying yes to the weeknight classes and turning down the weekend ones.  Sorry, that's what parents do.   

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, jmonique said:

And for me, this circles back around to Randall disregarding her request for space and forcing her into a confrontation about this immediately after she had given up another night to further his latest whim, and he responded by belittling and demeaning her, then rolling up into the bedroom spoiling for a fight like she did HIM wrong.

She reacted emotionally, already on the defensive after being told to grow up by a manchild who’s spent the past three years taking on and abandoning projects. This is raw - and yeah, she is obviously angry at herself for not speaking up earlier. But as soon as she did, he put down her desire to miss one meal and lashed out when she was late.

Beth can’t win because she isn’t putting herself on the back burner, as Rebecca did.

Genuine question because I don't want it to seem like I'm coming "at" you. but do you believe that Beth has any responsibility in this situation?

For me, I can completely get behind that Randall has plenty of work to do, but so does Beth.  I'm not clapping for Beth, nor cheering her on.  If anything, I'm not Team Randall or Team Beth.  I'm Team Divorce or at least Team Separation.  Both of them seem so entrenched in "I'm doing this.  It's my turn to do this.  But I want to do this."  They are acting like children---both of them, and I think they need to get away from each other and stop keeping score.  Maybe stop thinking that they both have shit that doesn't stink.

I can totally agree that Randall is entitled (although I would not call him a manchild), but Beth also acts entitled, especially when I think about her childhood.  She talked about Randall having a flight of fancy (which he did), but so did she---her childhood.  Her father was a postal carrier who adored her and probably worked his ass off to pay for that training.  And then she disrespects him (and her mother), by saying her mother took ballet away?  Ohhh...Miss Bethany Clark ain't all that.  GTFO

If she wants to come after Randall for his flaws in their marriage, by all means.  There are many, but she better also be looking at herself and her actions in the marriage.  Because it's coming across to me as "I (Beth) have been put upon and disrespected by mean old Randall for 20 years.  I have done everything and been everything for 20 years, and I'm utterly without fault or blame."  No.

For them to survive, I think they have to at least separate, so they can both think about their lives, what each wants, and if they are capable of working as a unit.  It might very well be that they are better co-parents (which I think they will be good at) then they are romantic partners.

[Jax7917]

19 hours ago, Laurie4H said:

The episode was a little contrived.  I feel like Beth creates drama.  Randall has his issues but he is good person.  She acts as if she is abused

Yes! I’m a little sick of all the “ go Beth ! You’re too good for Randall “ stuff that a lot of people say . Randall might be a lot to handle , but Beth is wayyy too much most of the time and IMO, very bitchy and cold . Even on their first date , it was over the top drama from her . She could have been pleasant and at the end of the date just said , maybe next time we can do something more casual . Instead , she was nasty from the second they sat down . I know it sounds like I hate Beth lol , I just feel that she’s a very overrated character and it occurred to me in this episode just how whiny she is . 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Jaclyn88

[MsChicklet]

23 minutes ago, WasabiGreenPeas said:

I think I'm alone in not being on either team.  

You're not alone. This is one reason why, to me, the show is so good. It's not a clear-cut, one-sided thing. Both are right, both are wrong, both are struggling. The only team I'm on is Team R&B, both of them.

Edited March 27, 2019 by MsChicklet

[Zoe]

2 hours ago, memememe76 said:

I am not sure why the golf thing is considered a date. They were planning to spend that day with Rebecca. When Beth suggested they go to that golf place, I am assuming Randall assumed that Rebecca would come along. 

It's because Beth was saying that they should do something else alone, but Randall didn't pick up on that at all and though she meant to do something different with Rebecca.

[bybrandy]

12 minutes ago, Jaclyn88 said:

Yes! I’m a little sick of all the “ go Beth ! You’re too good for Randall “

I don't think Beth is bitchy or cold and I am pretty solidly on team Beth because I think that while she has allowed it to happen their marriage right now is not built on any sort of equal basis.  I in no way think Beth is too good for Randall.  I think they are a couple at a crossroads as one person has been bending, and bending, and bending and is at a point where any more bending will cause a break... and it shouldn't have gotten that far, but it did.  And right now Rebecca needs to see somebody else make a sacrifice for once.   I support that.  But I hope it happens.  I hope they fight for it.

[Trillian]

Re: Beth’s ordering Randall to go sleep in his office, my spin is a bit different than some of the ideas floated here. I “heard” Beth saying “ your job is so bloody important to you?  More important than I am?  More important than our daughters?  Fine.  Go sleep at your job and see if it supports and keeps you warm.  I’m not going to”. Otherwise, she could’ve done the pillows on the couch thing again.

On another note, when I saw R&B at the fancy restaurant, I was thinking how Randall really should’ve checked with Kevin before picking the restaurant and deciding what to wear.  Needy is not cool, Randall.  He’s lucky that this was a flashback and that he and Beth are already married or else that first date would’ve been the absolute last. 

[Sharyn]

4 hours ago, Mrs.Monkey said:

May I just say that I LOVE this forum?  I love the intelligent, insightful dialogue of a show that we all enjoy.  I love that the comments are respectful of one another; this is so rare in this day of rude online comments that often attack one another.  (Please forgive me for not knowing how to comment without doing so as a quote.)  Thank you!

[Infie]

50 minutes ago, WasabiGreenPeas said:

  It doesn't make much sense for both of the parents to be MIA right now.   I think she needs to get to the bottom of his horrible decision to run for office and where that ultimately will be leading before reclaiming her dance passion.  Or saying yes to the weeknight classes and turning down the weekend ones.  Sorry, that's what parents do.   

I think that the issue is that it isn't what 'parents' do in this case.  If it were about what parents do, then we wouldn't be seeing this set of conflicts.   Instead, what is really being said is 'that's what BETH should do'.  

Beth flat out told Randall that she disagreed on his pursuing the job in Philadelphia because it was the wrong time for him to do it, because she could see coming down the pipe the issues with timing and commutes and their kids really needed stability, and Randall completely ignored her and continued anyway.  Now that those issues have come to fruition, Randall is still taking the position that his decision takes precedence - as it always has.  Beth is saying no - marriage is a partnership and it is his turn to make the sacrifice, and Randall is completely unwilling to do it.  

By deciding to pursue the councilman post against Beth's wishes and by breaking his promise to her, Randall is forcing her hand.  They are only looking at having both parents being MIA because he broke his promise and because he put his own wants above his marriage.  From that perspective alone, Randall is in the wrong here. 

It is interesting to me how many posters are taking the position that it is in fact Beth's role to acquiesce because she's a parent, and not Randall's because HE's a parent.  Doesn't the argument apply equally to both of them?

[debraran]

3 hours ago, jmonique said:

But did you take your parents out on dates?

But that doesn't absolve Randall of his priority being ... himself. Granted, we haven't seen the entirety of their relationship, but this "Beth let herself be run over" mind-set doesn't excuse Randall doing it, or gaslighting her when she finally puts herself first. She laid it all out for him and how she feels, and he stopped, took a beat ... and completely rejected her feelings. Again.

I would think 7 years after Jack died, Rebecca still wouldn't want to be with Randall so much. That to me is very weird. She needed to handhold then? There were so many warning signs for Beth she didn't see. She pushes Beth to marry her son, fine, it's a compliment but again, a bit odd. I'm surprised she didn't move in. Thank God for FB and Miguel!!

I find that their fight over her working and childcare so lame and not worthy of the writers and the actor's. They have Randall saying the girls would need expensive daycare and his daughter needing someone sensitive to her being gay (I guess after school activities would be discussing this ?) It's not worthy of earlier writing.  I can't see how this will end up but if they separate now, they surely will need some help. Will that prevent Rebecca from leaving and helping Kate? I hope not.

I can't see any real cliffhanger unless he using a future scene but that wouldn't be for the Fall. I'm not a fan of them, but I know others like it. I found the Nicky/Kevin scenes in the trailer the best I've seen this year and I hope for more of that writing and interaction next Fall.

[WasabiGreenPeas]

12 minutes ago, Infie said:

I think that the issue is that it isn't what 'parents' do in this case.  If it were about what parents do, then we wouldn't be seeing this set of conflicts.   Instead, what is really being said is 'that's what BETH should do'.  

Beth flat out told Randall that she disagreed on his pursuing the job in Philadelphia because it was the wrong time for him to do it, because she could see coming down the pipe the issues with timing and commutes and their kids really needed stability, and Randall completely ignored her and continued anyway.  Now that those issues have come to fruition, Randall is still taking the position that his decision takes precedence - as it always has.  Beth is saying no - marriage is a partnership and it is his turn to make the sacrifice, and Randall is completely unwilling to do it.  

By deciding to pursue the councilman post against Beth's wishes and by breaking his promise to her, Randall is forcing her hand.  They are only looking at having both parents being MIA because he broke his promise and because he put his own wants above his marriage.  From that perspective alone, Randall is in the wrong here. 

It is interesting to me how many posters are taking the position that it is in fact Beth's role to acquiesce because she's a parent, and not Randall's because HE's a parent.  Doesn't the argument apply equally to both of them?

Yes, of course!  Randall *is* in the wrong.   They need to get to the bottom of that "decision" pronto.   

But two wrongs don't make a right.   It seems to make a bad decision into a worse decision if you bring a foster child into your home and then decide to also not be home because your husband is AWOL.  She can decide whatever she wants, but that doesn't make for good parenting - period.  The children's needs come first.  Teaching ballet is not a necessity.  They are BOTH wrong. 

[JenE4]

Out of all of the unbelievable things that ever happened on this show, I can’t get past the fact that they had that big-ass house when they got married and were like 25...or 26 if they were engaged for a year! Come on! I live in NJ, and a small house is damn expensive—with high taxes to boot. No one is getting a freaking mansion in freaking Alpine as a “starter home” in their 20s. If we’re supposed to look at this show through the lens of Randal being “a lot,” then kudos, show, you got me on the house purchase...even though that wasn’t exactly a plot point. Otherwise, I don’t think the show was strictly anti-Randal. Passive-aggressive Beth is as much of a blame here. I mean, young Randal “asked around” and found out Beth was a dancer and she immediately shot him down that he had bad intel. Suddenly we’re supposed to believe he kept her locked down from dancing all of these years?!? He obviously supported that part of her from day 1—and she’s the one who said she’s not a dancer. Plus, Beth wasn’t exactly “barefoot and pregnant” chained to the kitchen. She was a “career woman” with a job she loved, and Randal was shown VERY MUCH being a “hands-on Dad,” despite his own high-profile career (insert his season 1 jingle about predicting the price of coooooooorn). I mean, the man cooked the whole freaking Thanksgiving dinner every year—and made a whole arena of super bowl foods! And, okay, maybe this is proving the point of him being “a lot,” but I wouldn’t mind kicking up my feet and letting my husband do all the housework and whatnot. But anyway, now that Beth is a part-time dance teacher and Randal is also currently unpaid until he is sworn in to a low-level, low-pay councilman position, how the hell can they still afford this mansion?!

Edited March 28, 2019 by JenE4

[RachelKM]

On 3/27/2019 at 3:12 PM, WasabiGreenPeas said:

Yes, of course!  Randall *is* in the wrong.   They need to get to the bottom of that "decision" pronto.   

But two wrongs don't make a right.   It seems to make a bad decision into a worse decision if you bring a foster child into your home and then decide to also not be home because your husband is AWOL.  She can decide whatever she wants, but that doesn't make for good parenting - period.  The children's needs come first.  Teaching ballet is not a necessity.  They are BOTH wrong. 

I don't disagree that both Beth and Randall have made decisions which are selfish to an extent.  But I'm also uncomfortable with the, "Well Randall's already doing a selfish thing that will take priority over time with their children so Beth doesn't have room too because the kids need at least one parent around," idea.

The only thing that makes Beth's choice potentially an issue for childcare is Randall's prior selfish decision to select a wholly new career with a commute 5-6 hours a day.  But as their argument and the, admittedly harsh, "anxiety attacks" comment highlighted, there really hasn't been a point where Beth choosing to put herself first wouldn't be in direct conflict with Randall's needs and/or whims. 

Rebecca put the kids first all the time, with the minor exception of her brief return to singing during which child care was covered, and all that did was teach Randall, and possibly Kevin, that it is cool for one party in a relationship to make all the concessions.  

Edited March 31, 2019 by RachelKM
preposition correction

[Blackie]

20 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Honestly, I don't think that Beth and Randall have any problems that a good therapist couldn't help them figure o

or at least write up a chore schedule for the kids. Are you really going to blow up your marriage because you dont make your kids do some dishes? ( yes I know the issues go deeper then that, but that would be a start)

[nlkm9]

As far as the sweatshirt... i was very sloppy and only wore sweats in college ....but.... when going on a date i tried to dress nicer. I saw it as indifference, she certainly wasn’t trying at all to impress Randall ( May i say i adore teenage Randall ) and she just seems like she has always had a chip on her shoulder.... some men do go nuts for a chase for sure.

[Chewy101]

16 hours ago, pennben said:

I think  you are assuming facts that aren’t in evidence based on a very intentionally ambiguous flasforward!

I don't think so. It was pretty clear that Beth has a dance studio and the adult children only spend time with him or her. This isn't a spoiler, it was on the show.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Chewy101
ETA: This shows does a ton of retcon, so you're probably right, that it was misleading us. I wish I cared. I'm pretty much down to Kevin. The only one who is a screw-up but at least knows it.

[Chewy101]

37 minutes ago, Blackie said:

or at least write up a chore schedule for the kids. Are you really going to blow up your marriage because you dont make your kids do some dishes? ( yes I know the issues go deeper then that, but that would be a start)

Truth. Their kids don't do squat around the house. And far as I can tell, they get to do any and every activity under the sun, if they want to. When I was growing up, we could not have done that. Based on the cost and the driving, we had to think of others as much as ourselves.

[marceline]

I'm still processing this ep but I wanted to give credit to a small scene that I thought was great writing...

That moment when Randal said "My dad died less than a year ago" and then admitted that he's not used to saying that out loud rang so true for me. My dad died almost 30 years ago and I still remember how hard it was for me to talk about him in the past tense.

[Arcadiasw]

8 hours ago, PRgal said:

Maybe it's just how I was raised, but I wouldn't have showed up at the restaurant in a school sweatshirt (wearing a school sweatshirt is suuuuuuuuuch a freshman/frosh thing to do!!!) and jean skirt.  I mean, she would have told her roommate/floormates where she was going and they would have suggested something to wear, right?  And if SHE didn't have something, I'm sure she could have BORROWED something from someone.

Also, 2017-ish Beth:  I would have been firm and said, "no, Randall, I'm going to that hotel room to binge on Living Single and eat bon bons.  And that's final." 

I would've told Randall I was getting food to snack on the way for my trip and the wine is for me relaxing in my hotel room after the conference. 

8 hours ago, PRgal said:

They were most certainly NOT the only black students on campus!  Carnegie Mellon is mostly white (and Asian), but there HAS to be more than two black kids there - even in the late 90s.  Were they in the same dorm and happen to be the only two black students there?  

I want to know how small is this school supposed to be for everyone to know each other or to at least know Beth and Randall are the only black students. Randall also commented he asked around about Beth. He should've kept that to himself. 

7 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

So seven years later and Sunday dinner with Rebecca is set in stone?  And Beth had to show up with a smile on her face every week, even though she and Randall weren't even engaged yet?  That is messed up. And did Rebecca ever say "You know Randall, you don't have to come over every week"?

Before they moved away last July my daughter and her husband used to have a standing invitation to come over for Sunday dinner.  But it wasn't every. single. Sunday, and when they chose to do something else it was just fine- no guilt . 

That's the only issue I have with that. I think it's fine if Rebecca spends Sundays with Beth and Randall but EVERY Sunday and not once did she think Beth and Randall should spend a Sunday alone? I understand she was lonely especially since Kate and Kevin limit their time with Rebecca but even Rebecca should understand young couples need time alone once in a while. 

[Chewy101]

9 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Randall gave it a try, which is nice, but it turns out that Beth simply wasn't into any of it. That's ok too. He tried, she didn't like it, and it doesn't sound like he tried doing the same thing again. I don't fault Randall for trying and I don't blame Beth for not liking it. I do question why they had her dress so opposite from Randall, but I think that was more of a directional choice, to contrast the two so blatantly.

I doubt she had any idea he was bringing her somewhere so pretentious. A skirt and sweatshirt would have been fine for just about anywhere else. Especially at their age. You don't ambush someone like that on a first date. Maybe an anniversary, where both parties know where they are going. She knew they didn't fit in, and she knew Randall was in denial about it. He is too much. 

I loved your comment, because we can all fall on one side or the other about that first date, but the point is they were young, and both meant well. I bet if Randall asked his brother's advice about the date as much as just asking her out, he would have had a more successful first date. 

[JKL845]

Team neither one. The best thing is to divorce and each of them find someone they are more suited for and passionate about. They are equally exhausting. I loved Beth and Randall the first season. This episode clearly showed they never should have married. There was zero passion between them when they were dating. We saw no love at all. Young Beth was terrible to Randall. Seems like he only pursued her was because of the challenge not for any real affection for her. Only showed a very shallow relationship last night. For her to turn down numerous proposals tells you this is not a good relationship. If she loved him and was passionate about him, she would have happily said yes and then discuss the right time to actually set the date. Maybe after she/they accomplished some goals. But she just came across as cold and indifferent to him. At this point I like the little kids and the teenagers but none of the adult children. Too bad because I used to love this show.

[Ana88]

19 minutes ago, marceline said:

I'm still processing this ep but I wanted to give credit to a small scene that I thought was great writing...

That moment when Randal said "My dad died less than a year ago" and then admitted that he's not used to saying that out loud rang so true for me. My dad died almost 30 years ago and I still remember how hard it was for me to talk about him in the past tense.

This is so true. Also just saying it out loud and when to bring it up to a new relationship. I lost my dad when I had just turned 21 and I lied for years to acquaintances and new people because it just seemed too awkward to say "my dad is dead" whenever they would ask something that would lead to that. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Ana88