The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm avoiding the Infinity War movie Thread and muted some related words on Twitter. I'm afraid I'll get accidentally spoiled

[Wynterwolf]

I am totally the opposite... I want to be spoiled before I see it.  I will not enjoy it at all unless I know certain plot related things before going in.  I don't actually want to see the clips, though, because I don't want the visual images in my head before I go in (so I'm avoiding all the clips too), but there are definitely certain plot related things I will be actively seeking spoilers on before I buy my ticket.  

[scriggle]

@Wynterwolf, are you my twin? ?

[Wynterwolf]

3 minutes ago, scriggle said:

@Wynterwolf, are you my twin? ?

Ha!!  Yes, I think it's highly likely.  :-D

[Danny Franks]

I intend to be thoroughly spoiled before watching this movie. The last Avengers and Captain America movies were so disappointing to me that I don't feel Marvel have earned my trust, with the keystones of the franchise.

I don't mind deaths of established main characters, if they're earned. But I'm not prepared to accept characters who have never been done real justice being killed off just so Marvel can pretend the stakes are real, and anyone is in danger. So if Steve, Tony or Thor die, I'm fine with it (of course, as stated, it has to be done well). But if Natasha, Bucky or any of the Guardians are thrown away just to cast the illusion that Thanos might win, I probably won't bother with the movie at all.

[Raja]

2 hours ago, Shannon L. said:

I've been looking at the thread because until the movie is released, it's all speculation anyway, but I don't want to see any more clips because of how much they give away now a days.  Wednesday the 25th until we see it on the 28th is going to be miserable for me on FB and other sites because I'm going to be so afraid of being spoiled.  I may just try to stay off of certain social media sites altogether.

I don't know how to avoid TV advertising, as the push up even more stuff than the trailers in the week before. I remember the 'I can do this all day" line in Civil War wasn't as powerful as it was in the trailers because we all knew it was coming and it used up our emotional response to it in advertising the greater film.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I'll just put this here because I can't find the Civil War thread.

From the Black Panther thread:

On 4/18/2018 at 1:50 AM, Dee said:

Bucky was racing away from everyone, but T'Challa specifically.

His super speed, along with Sam & Steve's interference, allowed him to essentially evade the police altogether.

It was T'Challa's interference, and dogged illegal pursuit of an innocent man, that caused Bucky to rightfully act in self defense. 

Nitpicking, but it was actually Natasha who took T'Challa out of commission at the airport. Although it's an interesting comparison - T'Challa thought Bucky murdered his father, not without reason given the Winter Soldier's history, and so he went after him with every intention of putting an end to him.

Erik blamed T'Chaka for killing his father, but T'Chaka was dead and so he took it out on the son instead, who was innocent except by association. So T'Challa was perfectly right to do what he had to in order to protect himself, yes?

[Dee]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Nitpicking, but it was actually Natasha who took T'Challa out of commission at the airport.

  Hide contents

 

I know that. The CW interaction that was being referenced occurred during the initial attempt to apprehend Bucky in Bucharest.

[Spartan Girl]

I usually avoid spoilers, but this time I may just cave. I'm coming back from NYC Friday so I'm not seeing it opening night. Saturday at the earliest. And I'd rather just prepare myself for the deaths -- goddammit I don't want Cap to die a sexless virgin!

Edited April 22, 2018 by Spartan Girl

[Shannon L.]

4 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

And I'd rather just prepare myself for the deaths -- goddammit I don't want Cap to die a sexless virgin!

Not that it will satisfy the fans based on the reaction from Civil War, but I wouldn't be surprised if early on, before the action starts, we see Cap waking up in bed with Sharon next to him. 

[scriggle]

That's not gonna happen. Per IMDB, Emily VanCamp isn't listed in the cast for infinity war.

IMHO, the whole Sharon romance was shoehorned in. No work was done to set it up. the last time Steve saw her in Cap2, he was frostily calling her "neighbor." And at the beginning of Cap3,  Steve didn't even know where she was or that she was now CIA. Never mind the fact that she was Peggy's (grand?) niece. That kiss was simply a big no homo.

[Shannon L.]

9 minutes ago, scriggle said:

That's not gonna happen. Per IMDB, Emily VanCamp isn't listed in the cast for infinity war.

IMHO, the whole Sharon romance was shoehorned in. No work was done to set it up. the last time Steve saw her in Cap2, he was frostily calling her "neighbor." And at the beginning of Cap3,  Steve didn't even know where she was or that she was now CIA. Never mind the fact that she was Peggy's (grand?) niece. That kiss was simply a big no homo.

Ah, well, so much for that idea.  I'm surprised she doesn't have at least a small part in it.  And I don't disagree with you on the "big no" for the kiss.  That's why I mentioned the reaction to Civil War.  In regards to Cap dying a sexless virgin, I'm holding out hope because (I'll spoiler tag it since some people don't even like speculation):

Spoiler

I read that Chris Evans has said that he's not opposed to showing up in a cameo role in future Marvel movies.  That could be him throwing us off, or it could be good news for fans.  We'll find out in a few days.

[Spartan Girl]

I agree that there should have been more development for Sharon. Blame the Russos for completely shoehorning Black Widow as the female lead in Winter Soldier when it would have made more sense (and faithful to comics) for Sharon to be the female lead. Then people wouldn't just dismiss her as only a love interest.

But yeah it would have been awesome to have a scene of the two of them at the beginning of Infinity War. Hell,I wish she was Infinity War, we need more women there. But you never know, there's still a sequel coming...

Edited April 22, 2018 by Spartan Girl

[scriggle]

49 minutes ago, Shannon L. said:

 

  Hide contents

I read that Chris Evans has said that he's not opposed to showing up in a cameo role in future Marvel movies.  That could be him throwing us off, or it could be good news for fans.  We'll find out in a few days.

Spoiler

Evans has said many times that he's open to coming back and that if Marvel wants him, he's there. That's what I don't understand about so many saying Cap has to die because Evans' contract is up. Know who else's contract is up? Hemsworth. I don't see people saying he has to die. Hell, RDJ has been contracted per movie since Ultron. No one's saying he has to die. Yeah, I know Cap dies in the comics (along with everyone else!) but the MCU is not the comics.  I just feel like folks don't appreciate Cap or Evans. Marvel/Disney would be making a big mistake killing off Cap/Steve Rogers; he's arguably been their most popular character (Spidey's tied up with Sony so I don't consider pure Marvel/Disney)

[anna0852]

So I'm watching First Avenger and it occurred to me: did Heimdall see Schmitt screwing with the Tessaract? Cuz either he saw it and didn't care or his sight isn't as far-reaching as we think. I've always assumed it was Heimdall that informed Thor and Odin what Loki was up to on earth in Avengers. And therefore explain how Thor showed up to reign in his younger brother.

[Perfect Xero]

14 hours ago, anna0852 said:

So I'm watching First Avenger and it occurred to me: did Heimdall see Schmitt screwing with the Tessaract? Cuz either he saw it and didn't care or his sight isn't as far-reaching as we think. I've always assumed it was Heimdall that informed Thor and Odin what Loki was up to on earth in Avengers. And therefore explain how Thor showed up to reign in his younger brother.

I think that Heimdall has to intentionally focus on a particular person to see what they're up to, he doesn't just know what's happening with everyone at all times.

[romantic idiot]

18 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I agree that there should have been more development for Sharon. Blame the Russos for completely shoehorning Black Widow as the female lead in Winter Soldier when it would have made more sense (and faithful to comics) for Sharon to be the female lead. Then people wouldn't just dismiss her as only a love interest.

But yeah it would have been awesome to have a scene of the two of them at the beginning of Infinity War. Hell,I wish she was Infinity War, we need more women there. But you never know, there's still a sequel coming...

Well I'm glad that the Russos didn't because one of my favorite aspects of The Winter Soldier is the effortless, platonic chemistry between Cap and Black Widow. 

Also not a major fan of Emily van Camp I must say - she always looks incredibly smug to me for some reason. 

[Morrigan2575]

Posted it in Infinity Wars thread as well but, it's funny and works for this thread as well.

5 hours ago, romantic idiot said:

Well I'm glad that the Russos didn't because one of my favorite aspects of The Winter Soldier is the effortless, platonic chemistry between Cap and Black Widow. 

Also not a major fan of Emily van Camp I must say - she always looks incredibly smug to me for some reason. 

Can't agree enough. The friendship between Cap and Widow in The Winter Soldier was great and Emily Van Camp is a sucky actress.  Really glad we didn't get more Sharon. Frankly, I could have done without Sharon in Civil War, pointless and only there 'because comics'

[Dandesun]

I still say that Sharon's willingness to help Cap and Co out in Civil War should have been completely Peggy based and not about her having a crush on Cap which is how it played out and it was laaaaaaame.

I do agree about the Cap/Widow buddy thing. I love that. I love that, by all accounts, they have almost nothing in common but managed to find their common ground to work together and trust each other. I love that she showed up for Peggy's funeral because she was worried about her friend Steve. I also love that she backed out of Tony's side of the CW argument and helped Steve get Bucky the hell out of Dodge by incapacitating T'Challa... repeatedly.

I have enjoyed various fics where Natasha is paired off (usually with Clint, sometimes Sam, sometimes Sharon) but I also kind of like the idea of an asexual/aromantic Natasha because it does actually make a lot of sense for her as a character in the MCU. 

[VCRTracking]

 

[Kromm]

The most unusual "interview" you will see with the Avengers cast.

It is not spoilery of anything in the film. Don't worry.  And yes, it's in English.

Very worth watching. It shows Cumberbatch, Hiddleston and Holland's senses of humor (humour if you are English) off very well.

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by Kromm

[scriggle]

IW cast plays family feud:

IW cast press conference:

And Chris Evans (who's not doing the press tour (BOO!) because he's doing a play on Broadway) on GMA:

[Shannon L.]

When did Tom Hiddleston start morphing into Gary Oldman?

[Danny Franks]

7 hours ago, romantic idiot said:

Well I'm glad that the Russos didn't because one of my favorite aspects of The Winter Soldier is the effortless, platonic chemistry between Cap and Black Widow. 

Also not a major fan of Emily van Camp I must say - she always looks incredibly smug to me for some reason. 

Yeah, I think Natasha was an important part of The Winter Soldier, and I certainly wouldn't have changed it to give Sharon a bigger role at her expense. But they could have given her a bigger role as well. 

As it is, I remember many people (including myself) predicting that fans wouldn't welcome Sharon as a love interest, both because Peggy was so great, and because the idea of Steve dating her grandniece is just a bit weird. It turns out those people were mostly right. There are other love interests in Steve's comic book history that could have worked better, but Sharon is the main one, and she's the one who was a part of the Winter Soldier storyline (albeit in a very different way).

But these movies haven't really done a very good job with romantic relationships across the board. Tony and Pepper is the only one that really worked, as far as I can recall. Steve and Peggy was cut off before it could really start, Thor and Jane was poorly executed, Natasha and Bruce was pointless and distracting, and I didn't care for Scott Lang and Hope van Dyne either.

[Morrigan2575]

The Winter Soldier was the first time i liked Black Widow/Nat. 

I never liked the way Wheden wrote Black Widow in the Avengers and I really didn't like her in Iron Man 2. 

I thought Winter Soldier was the best version of Widow, she was an actual character with depth.

[absnow54]

But these movies haven't really done a very good job with romantic relationships across the board. Tony and Pepper is the only one that really worked, as far as I can recall. Steve and Peggy was cut off before it could really start, Thor and Jane was poorly executed, Natasha and Bruce was pointless and distracting, and I didn't care for Scott Lang and Hope van Dyne either.

I think they did too good a job introducing Steve and Peggy that is was really hard to find a replacement love interest. They really should have found a way to bring Hayley Atwell into the present day Marvel Universe.

[Spartan Girl]

2 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

I think they did too good a job introducing Steve and Peggy that is was really hard to find a replacement love interest. They really should have found a way to bring Hayley Atwell into the present day Marvel Universe.

Well if they had her play Sharon too, it would have made it even weirder, wouldn't it?

 

26 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Yeah, I think Natasha was an important part of The Winter Soldier, and I certainly wouldn't have changed it to give Sharon a bigger role at her expense. But they could have given her a bigger role as well. 

Thank you, yes, I would have liked that as well. We need all the female representation we can get.

Look I don't hate Nat/Black Widow, I hate the fact that she's the one female in this franchise (except for maybe Gamora) that gets the most attention. Everyone else is just overlooked or dismissed as the token love interest.

Is Secretaty Ross supposed to be in Infinity War? I want him to get his comeuppance, and Thanos owes us at least one kill that will make everyone happy.

[Dee]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

 I thought Winter Soldier was the best version of Widow, she was an actual character with depth.

I remain irritated they trimmed/deleted two of Natasha's best scenes.

Her reunion with Fury in Winter Soldier and the extended scene between she and Steve in Civil War are a perfect distillation of Natasha's post-Avengers character arc.

[Dee]

1 hour ago, absnow54 said:

I think they did too good a job introducing Steve and Peggy that is was really hard to find a replacement love interest. They really should have found a way to bring Hayley Atwell into the present day Marvel Universe.

It doesn't help that Sam & Bucky essentially fill the love interest positions in the Cap franchise. Between them, Peggy's lingering presence, and Natasha as Steve's platonic BFF there's virtually no room for another potential love interest for Steve.

The Thor franchise had a similar issue trying to integrate Jane into the larger Asgardian universe, until they dropped her altogether and went with the much more charismatic, and plot-relevant, Valkyrie.

[festivus]

9 hours ago, romantic idiot said:

Well I'm glad that the Russos didn't because one of my favorite aspects of The Winter Soldier is the effortless, platonic chemistry between Cap and Black Widow. 

This is one of my favorite things in all of the Marvel movies. I'm a sucker for a good friendship.

 

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

But these movies haven't really done a very good job with romantic relationships across the board. Tony and Pepper is the only one that really worked, as far as I can recall. Steve and Peggy was cut off before it could really start, Thor and Jane was poorly executed, Natasha and Bruce was pointless and distracting, and I didn't care for Scott Lang and Hope van Dyne either.

Yeah, Tony and Pepper is the only one I like. Honestly, I could do without a love interest for Steve and I don't care anything about Sharon Carter. I'm one of those that thinks it's icky. I did like Steve and Peggy, too bad they were doomed. Otherwise I don't care much about romance in the MU.

[HunterHunted]

34 minutes ago, Dee said:

It doesn't help that Sam & Bucky essentially fill the love interest positions in the Cap franchise. Between them, Peggy's lingering presence, and Natasha as Steve's platonic BFF there's virtually no room for another potential love interest for Steve.

Emotionally, Steve has got too much storyline to be able to shoehorn in a love story. He's got 2 long lost relationships (Bucky and Peggy), a triangle for his affections (Sam and Bucky), a platonic friendship with Natasha, a doomed love with Peggy, and a disintegrating relationship with Tony. I don't know where they thought Sharon was going to fit.

[wingster55]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

But these movies haven't really done a very good job with romantic relationships across the board. Tony and Pepper is the only one that really worked, as far as I can recall. Steve and Peggy was cut off before it could really start, Thor and Jane was poorly executed, Natasha and Bruce was pointless and distracting, and I didn't care for Scott Lang and Hope van Dyne either.

T'Challa and Nakia say hello. 

[Jazzy24]

On 4/18/2018 at 12:10 AM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I've been consciously avoiding the movie thread, because I don't even want to see speculation about anybody dying. My heart can't take it.

Like I don’t want this movie. 

Steve, Natasha, Sam are roughs and helping the world the best way they can(I assume that they are at least a little happy)Wanda and Vision are probably secretly talking and seem content. Tony and Pepper are back together. Peter is the neighborhood friendly Spiderman and doing kid stuff. Thor is now a wise king who will settle his kingdom somewhere new and him and Loki are on good terms. T’Challa is king of Wakanda and helping the world and the Guardians have bonded and seem happy. Client is probably happy with his family so is Scott with his daughter. 

Everybody seems fine and happy somewhat so Marvel can keep this movie. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Look I don't hate Nat/Black Widow, I hate the fact that she's the one female in this franchise (except for maybe Gamora) that gets the most attention. Everyone else is just overlooked or dismissed as the token love interest.

I don't think this is accurate. Whether the movies always handle the characters well is open to debate, but Nebula, Wanda, Maria Hill, and even Mantis, who's still pretty new, are neither love intrests or overlooked. What always makes me laugh about the 'If Bucky was Becky" argument is that then we'd never hear the end of how often Barnes gets damseled so that Steve can rush off and save him. The guy can't go around the corner for coffee without getting into trouble as it is, and I'm not sure it'd be an improvement on a female character.

[Morrigan2575]

17 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I don't think this is accurate. Whether the movies always handle the characters well is open to debate, but Nebula, Wanda, Maria Hill, and even Mantis, who's still pretty new, are neither love intrests or overlooked. 

I'd add Hope Pym to that list.  Yeah, we had that last minute (totally unnecessary) kiss at the end of the movie but, I think her story was more about Hank than being Scott's LI.

[Dandesun]

46 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

 What always makes me laugh about the 'If Bucky was Becky" argument is that then we'd never hear the end of how often Barnes gets damseled so that Steve can rush off and save him. The guy can't go around the corner for coffee without getting into trouble as it is, and I'm not sure it'd be an improvement on a female character.

PLUMS! He went around the corner for plums!! #accuracy

You have a point about Bucky being damseled a bit. By the same token, he's also been kept away from Steve. They've never gotten their happy ending. And, happily, if Bucky were Becky, I can't say that the 'death' in First Avenger was a fridging moment. It was a tragic moment but it didn't make Steve more interested in taking down Hydra. It made him a lot angrier but it didn't drive him to the fight.

Peggy didn't get damseled and, in fact, got an entire, full life after Steve left hers. So I kind of look at Bucky in a similar fashion. The things Hydra did to Bucky weren't necessarily about Steve. After he fell from the train you can definitely make an argument as how Hydra was thrilled they got Cap's right hand in their clutches but Zola had already been experimenting on him before Steve was anything more than a stage show. I suppose an argument could be made for Bucky getting damseled but I don't think it's a very strong one.

[JessePinkman]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I don't think this is accurate. Whether the movies always handle the characters well is open to debate, but Nebula, Wanda, Maria Hill, and even Mantis, who's still pretty new, are neither love intrests or overlooked. What always makes me laugh about the 'If Bucky was Becky" argument is that then we'd never hear the end of how often Barnes gets damseled so that Steve can rush off and save him. The guy can't go around the corner for coffee without getting into trouble as it is, and I'm not sure it'd be an improvement on a female character.

I often think about how much people would hate Bucky if he were a woman. I mean, people would hate her. People hate Sharon and she's had about 7 total scenes in the series and hasn't actually done anything wrong besides not be Peggy. 

[festivus]

I don't hate Sharon, I just think she's a pointless character. I don't read the comics so I have no investment in her. Like was said upthread, Steve has so much story already I just don't see any room for her.

[JustaPerson]

Kevin Feige's oral history of the MCU, phase by phase. 

Quote

"For us it was, ‘Hey there’s this great storyline from the comics that pit Iron Man and Captain America against each other.’ You could only do that storyline when you had enough movies behind you for that to mean anything. To know enough about Tony Stark’s point of view, to know enough about Steve Rogers’ point of view, to believe they could face off with each other that way and have it be heartbreaking and emotional."

Some unintentional shade on BvS?

Edited April 24, 2018 by JustaPerson

[JessePinkman]

18 minutes ago, festivus said:

I don't hate Sharon, I just think she's a pointless character. I don't read the comics so I have no investment in her. Like was said upthread, Steve has so much story already I just don't see any room for her.

That wasn't directed at you. It was about the general reaction to the character, she gets a lot of vitriol for someone who doesn't do anything of consequence.

[Dee]

I actually like Sharon, and Emily VanCamp, quite a bit.

She just had the bad luck to be closely related to a franchise that was already overextended in terms of awesome characters.

A better use for her, post-Winter Soldier, would've been to reunite her with Nick & Maria, ala Cameron, that way she could remain semi-relevant without her being shoehorned into a generic love interest role at the expense of quality characterization.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Dee

[Cobalt Stargazer]

35 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

 I suppose an argument could be made for Bucky getting damseled but I don't think it's a very strong one.

Over the course of the three movies Bucky has been in, he's gotten kidnapped by Hydra, turned into a mindless killing machine, then broke free of his programming and gone on the run. All of this while being the only Howling Commando thought to have been killed in action, which made him a heroic martyr. Then he was sought by the international authorities for a bombing he didn't commit, a bombing that killed the reigning monarch of a sovereign nation attempting outreach to the larger world.  Fair enough to say that he's not responsible for his acts as the Winter Solider, and all things considered I think it's better that Barnes feels guilt he doesn't need to feel, since Lord knows no one else is allowed to say 'boo' to him without being considered awful, but without the laundry list of things that have happened to him, I wouldn't think of him as damseled.

[festivus]

1 hour ago, JessePinkman said:

That wasn't directed at you. It was about the general reaction to the character, she gets a lot of vitriol for someone who doesn't do anything of consequence.

I know it wasn't, I just wanted to clarify that I don't hate the character, I just don't have any investment in her.

[Matt K]

12 hours ago, JustaPerson said:

Kevin Feige's oral history of the MCU, phase by phase. 

Some unintentional shade on BvS?

It wouldn't surprise me.  From what I remember Civil War wasn't even on the slate until WB tried to push BvS to the same date as Captain America 3: The Serpent Society.  

[wingster55]

So, they ignored logical progression of the Captain America movie plot, and gave RDJ more screen-time just to be petty towards DC? For a super similar imo not well done movie? K. 

[Fukui San]

13 hours ago, JustaPerson said:

Kevin Feige's oral history of the MCU, phase by phase. 

Some unintentional shade on BvS?

Theory: Any pronouncement on good storytelling can also be seen as shade on the DCU.

[VCRTracking]

6 minutes ago, wingster55 said:

So, they ignored logical progression of the Captain America movie plot, and gave RDJ more screen-time just to be petty towards DC? For a super similar imo not well done movie? K. 

Worked for me! The reason it did was they HAD showed in Winter Soldier that Bucky was an assassin for Hydra and that Hydra was responsible for Tony's parents death. Therefore it wasn't much to assume Bucky was the one who killed them. It wasn't something they had to retcon for Civil War.

[ChelseaNH]

14 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Over the course of the three movies Bucky has been in, he's gotten kidnapped by Hydra

"Kidnapped" is an interesting term for an active duty soldier operating in a war zone.

[BetterButter]

[Morrigan2575]

4 hours ago, Matt K said:

It wouldn't surprise me.  From what I remember Civil War wasn't even on the slate until WB tried to push BvS to the same date as Captain America 3: The Serpent Society.  

Was Serpant Society ever really planned? I always thought that was a working title to hide the Civil War Storyline? Didn't they even announce Serpant Society at the Phase 3 Launch Party and then immediately reveal that Civil War was the real Capt 3?