S01.E05: Lord High Executioner

[Door County Cherry]

Airs on Dec. 22, 2018

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John gets clean for Debra; Terra learns John is back; John puts his sister through the ringer.

[answerphone]

A bit confusing as to who the other people were in the flashbacks, but good, suspenseful episode

[HunterHunted]

While I think all of John's lies, manipulations, and actions are monstrous and completely reprehensible, I can't feel too sorry for Debra. She's so desperate to feel wanted, validated, and needed that she'll willingly burn her house to the ground for this fucking fool. Like many predators, John went after the weak, which is Debra. On some level, Debra senses it too because the only people Debra has actually told the truth about John without being forced to have been her enabler mother, Arlane, and whiny pushover Terra. Veronica, Tre, and Chad have had to pry the truth from her. Notice that John gave up trying to charm the latter 3 very quickly because they were on to him. He then turned to harassment and threats. He hasn't had to turn to threats with Deb because charm and lies are still working on her.

[crgirl412]

I liked this episode!  I wanted to punch Deb and hug Ronnie!!  I didn't listen to any of the real stuff out there so is Deb that pathetic-sounding IRL?

[CaliCheeseSucks]

2 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

I liked this episode!  I wanted to punch Deb and hug Ronnie!!  I didn't listen to any of the real stuff out there so is Deb that pathetic-sounding IRL?

As far as still making rationalizations for what she didn't see or didn't react to, in my opinion: Yes.

Poor Veronica. In the back of my mind I knew, having listened to the podcast/other media, that he had directed vile harassment towards her but that that scene still packed a wallop. Maybe because they did an almost too good of job of making Veronica seem smart (about her mother/Meehan) but shallow (in so many material ways) that to see how much she *did* value the work she was doing and how John was able to strike at the heart of it was very very effective.

[Madding crowd]

John is so incredibly vile. To steal from his own sister and threaten her like that. I felt so bad for Veronica when he started in on her. Still feel that Connie’s character doesn’t do much more than look confused, so I can never tell what Debbie is thinking. 

[MerBearStare]

This might make me sound awful, but I really enjoyed seeing Debra get turned away from brunch. What did she think was going to happen when she chose her abusive scumbag lying addict husband over her kids? Has she met Ronnie? 

[Empress1]

1 minute ago, MerBearStare said:

This might make me sound awful, but I really enjoyed seeing Debra get turned away from brunch. What did she think was going to happen when she chose her abusive scumbag lying addict husband over her kids? Has she met Ronnie? 

I don't think it's awful at all. It was completely sensible, especially when her son was like "Look, you do you, but I have kids and John is scary, so fuck that." It's really the only acceptable response from him - he's got to protect HIS family. Actions have consequences. Also, I highly doubt this is the first time Debra has chosen a man over her kids; this is just the first dangerous one.

[Ohwell]

If the writers expected for me to feel any kind of sympathy for John having a POS father, they were wrong.  I did feel bad for his sister though.

I said "right on!" when the son didn't fall for Debra's poor pitiful me schtick.  I was so happy that he stood his ground.  

I have admit, it was tough listening to Terra's vocal fry but I stuck it out just to see where the episode was going.  No wonder the BF broke up with her, he just couldn't take listening to her anymore. 

[Empress1]

Just now, Ohwell said:

If the writers expected for me to feel any kind of sympathy for John having a POS father, they were wrong.  I did feel bad for his sister though.

I said "right on!" when the son didn't fall for Debra's poor pitiful me schtick.  I was so happy that he stood his ground.  

I have admit, it was tough listening to Terra's vocal fry but I stuck it out just to see where the episode was going.  No wonder the BF broke up with her, he just couldn't take listening to her anymore. 

A lot of people on Twitter were like "OMG THAT VOICE." It really is awful. That's really how Terra sounds though. 

Terra asked her mother to stay home from work to pet her hair because she got dumped. I can't.

[absolutelyido]

John is just vile, a psychopath beyond redemption. I don't understand how he thought attacking Ronnie's workplace was going to help him with Debra. Unless he thought he could get away with it; he would get revenge on Ronnie because she would know it was him, but he would convince Debra that he had nothing to do with it.

John truly is one of those people who is unable to feel empathy toward another human being. He sees everyone as either someone to be manipulated to get what he wants, or to be destroyed if they cross him. 

[yourmomiseasy]

8 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

I liked this episode!  I wanted to punch Deb and hug Ronnie!!  I didn't listen to any of the real stuff out there so is Deb that pathetic-sounding IRL?

The portrayal is spooky in how spot on it is.  Connie is doing an amazing job.

19 minutes ago, absolutelyido said:

John is just vile, a psychopath beyond redemption. I don't understand how he thought attacking Ronnie's workplace was going to help him with Debra. Unless he thought he could get away with it; he would get revenge on Ronnie because she would know it was him, but he would convince Debra that he had nothing to do with it.

John truly is one of those people who is unable to feel empathy toward another human being. He sees everyone as either someone to be manipulated to get what he wants, or to be destroyed if they cross him. 

Of course he thought he could get away with it.  Debra has taught him that she'll eat his shit up with a spoon.  Also, it is inline with his pattern of behavior.  Look how he treated his ex-wife and sister after he was no longer able to charm them.  We were also shown his dad teaching him to be vengeful.  

[Joimiaroxeu]

So John's father made him do seriously dangerous scams when he was a kid. Almost makes sense why John killed him. But what did he gain from it other than some twisted kind of revenge?

John played Debra so hard, pretending to go through withdrawal. She never stood a chance against this guy. I wonder if that doctor was in on the scam withdrawal with John.

OMG, Debra, the way to "fix it" is simple. Don't choose a sociopathic criminal over your children and grandchildren.

I thought the mafia way was not to go after the families of people you have a problem with. Weren't families exempt? It sounds like John's father had some twisted version of the mafia way in his head and that's what he passed on to John.

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Connie is doing an amazing job.

She is. She and Patricia Arquette are probaby going to be going toe to toe for the Emmy in their category.

[gotta watch]

How is everyone on the planet watching this show? I just think it's fascinating. I'm a big fan of true crime stories anyway. That scene of little John biting into that taco felt like a scene from Breaking Bad.

[TattleTeeny]

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I don't understand how he thought attacking Ronnie's workplace was going to help him with Debra. 

To isolate her; the more he alienates and/or scares away her family, the more she feels that all she has to depend on is him. That's why, while I understand her family's need to sort of shun her, I also wonder if it is counterproductive--especially to a pliable person like Debra.

[DangerousMinds]

I don’t think the withdrawal was fake. Just not sure why he couldn’t go to a legitimate treatment center instead of going cold turkey. No doubt he would have relapsed quickly no matter how he did it though.

[Barb23]

31 minutes ago, gotta watch said:

How is everyone on the planet watching this show? I just think it's fascinating. I'm a big fan of true crime stories anyway. That scene of little John biting into that taco felt like a scene from Breaking Bad.

Save me a place at your table!  I totally agree.  Talk about an addiction --I've recorded all the episodes & have watched them numerous times. Like I posted before,  I seem to catch something new each time I watch. 

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

 

John played Debra so hard, pretending to go through withdrawal. She never stood a chance against this guy. I wonder if that doctor was in on the scam withdrawal with John.

OMG, Debra, the way to "fix it" is simple. Don't choose a sociopathic criminal over your children and grandchildren.

I thought the mafia way was not to go after the families of people you have a problem with. Weren't families exempt? It sounds like John's father had some twisted version of the mafia way in his head and that's what he passed on to John.

 

 You're right - John's fake detox was all for show to impress Debra.  He wanted her to see in person what he would go through to prove his love for her.  Doing it cold turkey was icing on the cake. I'm sure he really did stop the drugs for a day or two to get the withdrawal symptoms going & IMO, he portrayed that well.  But as soon as Debra woke up & John was feeling better eating crackers & bananas, I knew he had started up with the drugs again vs being clean.  He does seem rather stupid in hiding his drugs.  He leaves them almost out in the open just like he did with his secret papers. Like he wants to get caught.

My husband & I have heard the same thing about the mob/mafia not going after the families.  You could sure see the wheels spinning in Ronnie's head when her boss was explaining things.  First she seemed shocked in hearing what the doctor was telling her then the lightbulb went off and she realized who was the cause.

I like when they do the flipping between the good and  bad/dirty John scenes. This episode it was the scene with Ronnie losing her job & next scene was John & Debra being all romantic feeding each other at a candlelight meal.  The other time was on the first episode when they showed John & Debra living it up & getting married in Vegas.  Next scene was the surgery girl being denied her pain meds. 

I really liked how Trey stood up to Debra.  He  seemed genuinely scared to have John around his family & I can't  blame him. I felt for Ronnie too.  It had to be a slap in the face to see her mother start up with John again after all she did to prove to her mother that John is a major druggie con man & worried about her mom's s safety by helping her move away from him.

I'm surprised John's sister (?Denise) turned out so well after growing up in that dysfunctional family.  

[HunterHunted]

3 hours ago, MerBearStare said:

This might make me sound awful, but I really enjoyed seeing Debra get turned away from brunch. What did she think was going to happen when she chose her abusive scumbag lying addict husband over her kids? Has she met Ronnie? 

3 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I don't think it's awful at all. It was completely sensible, especially when her son was like "Look, you do you, but I have kids and John is scary, so fuck that." It's really the only acceptable response from him - he's got to protect HIS family. Actions have consequences. Also, I highly doubt this is the first time Debra has chosen a man over her kids; this is just the first dangerous one.

 

It's not awful. Veronica, Trey, and Chad are treating Debra's marriage just like any other problematic dangerous behavior. They've said that Debra with John is just too unstable to be in their lives. They've also indicated that they're willing to help and support her when she articulates a desire to stop this problem, but in no way are they willing to provide support for her while she continues with this dangerous behavior. That's a sentiment often articulated by family members of individuals dealing with addiction. Notice that Arlane and Terra are absolutely enablers who never say anything bad about John or cave when they have to put up resistance. 

The thing is that if Debra had any other maladaptive behavior she'd recognize why her kids wouldn't think she was safe to be around their children. If she had alcohol or drug issues, sex addiction, was cutting or other types of self-harm, or had an eating disorder, she'd get it. If every time she showed up for a family event and refused to eat or found herself running to the bathroom to purge, Debra would understand that she's not great to be around the grandkids or model healthy behaviors. But because it's LOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE, she's perplexed by her kids' reactions.

10 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I don’t think the withdrawal was fake. Just not sure why he couldn’t go to a legitimate treatment center instead of going cold turkey. No doubt he would have relapsed quickly no matter how he did it though.

Because it would be harder to hustle Deb if he was in a real rehab. He'd have to be examined by real clinicians, attend meeting, therapy, and have aftercare plan. His ass doesn't want any part of that. Deb is so dumb that she's like "OMG! That was rough." Blink. Blink. Blink.

[TattleTeeny]

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Because it would be harder to hustle Deb if he was in a real rehab. He'd have to be examined by real clinicians, attend meeting, therapy, and have aftercare plan. His ass doesn't want any part of that. Deb is so dumb that she's like "OMG! That was rough." Blink. Blink. Blink.

Yeah--and feeling needed seems to be something Debra likes. I have no doubt that he did actually go cold turkey just enough to drum up some convincing sweating and barfing to bolster the ruse, not that Debra needs much convincing of anything; he could have just claimed to have done those things and she'd have believed it.

[mythoughtis]

Terra may not have spent as much time around John as Ronnie and Trey.  However she was kept up to date by Ronnie. So the fact that she is as blind to reality as Debra is worrisome for her future ( and I’m not referring to anything to do with John). Good for Trey for putting his foot down about John.  I read some comments before I watched the episode and I thought Debra was turned away for brunch at the door. I’m glad to see the kids explained things to her first and asked her to leave once she refused to see reality. 

I almost laughed at Debra saying she had taken vows for better or worse. This is number 5.  How did she get to number 5 if vows  were so important to her. Surely all 5 previous husbands  didn’t leave her, did they? 

I hope Johns's sister actually did cut him out of her life.  Of course she should have cut her Dad out of her life  years ago too- since she knew what he was as a child. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by mythoughtis

[preeya]

2 hours ago, Barb23 said:

My husband & I have heard the same thing about the mob/mafia not going after the families.

The father, likely wasn't a real connected mob guy, just a "MOB WANNABE" and a lowlife con artist.

Edited December 24, 2018 by preeya

[Andromeda]

I have a question from last week's thread. Who is Tonia and what did she learn in a conversation with a doctor? I'm wracking my brain and can't recall the scene, which is apparently one of the few "not really happened that way" scenes...

This last episode just makes me want to slap Debra. If she doesn't get it after John gaslights her daughter's career, there's no helping her.

I was confused about the timeline. Did he try to steal his sister's property before or after he apparently killed their father? I would assume after, since they still had a good relationship, but am not sure.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Andromeda

[mythoughtis]

13 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

I have a question from last week's thread. Who is Tonia and what did she learn in a conversation with a doctor? I'm wracking my brain and can't recall the scene, which is apparently one of the few "not really happened that way" scenes...

This last episode just makes me want to slap Debra. If she doesn't get it after John gaslights her daughter's career, there's no helping her.

I was confused about the timeline. Did he try to steal his sister's property before or after he apparently killed their father? I would assume after, since they still had a good relationship, but am not sure.

 

Tonia is Johns ex-wife. She had the same job as John- actually put him thru school.  The show used the fake conversation between her and a doctor at a work conference to show he’d been having an affair with said doctor.  Tonia divorced  him and turned him in when she found out he was stealing drugs meant for patients. I think that’s how he ended up in prison in Ohio. 

He killed his father at some point in the past prior to the Ohio prison stay - the show didn’t say when, although his dad looked fairly old and Denise didn’t look that much younger than in the final scenes of this episode.  No idea when that was compared to when he met Debra. 

I heard him tell his sister at their Dads bedside that ‘Susan’ and he were getting divorced. Who is Susan? Was there a Susan or was that a lie? Denise said she’d never met her. 

Edited December 25, 2018 by mythoughtis

[Andromeda]

2 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

Tonia is Johns ex-wife. She had the same job as John- actually put him thru school.  The show used the fake conversation between her and a doctor at a work conference to show he’d been having an affair with said doctor.  Tonia divorced  him and turned him in when she found out he was stealing drugs meant for patients. I think that’s how he ended up in prison in Ohio. 

He killed his father at some point in the past - the show didn’t say when, although his dad looked fairly old and Denise didn’t look that much younger than in the final scenes of this episode.  No idea when that was compared to when he met Debra. 

Thanks, mythoughtis!

[mythoughtis]

Google tells me John had two sisters and a younger half sibling. None named Denise. Although Denise’s scenes seem to match one of the sisters explanation of their history.  Dads death was in 1997. John got out of that first prison stint in 2004.   So ‘Susan’ must be Tonia. 

Edited December 25, 2018 by mythoughtis

[Showthyme]

3 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I don’t think the withdrawal was fake. Just not sure why he couldn’t go to a legitimate treatment center instead of going cold turkey. No doubt he would have relapsed quickly no matter how he did it though.

Opioid addicts go cold turkey for many reasons: 1) they have already been through rehab many times, 2) are generally non-compliant and don't want people telling them what to do, 3) are arrogant and think they don't need help from anyone and 4) treatment is often suboxone which they consider substituting one drug for another, and 5) there is plenty of information on the Internet on how to detox. Treatment is very expensive and for the most part, ineffective. I'm not saying detoxing outside of a medical care is smart but addicts think differently.

John had experience with this drug and knew just how quickly he would experience withdrawal symptoms and what to expect. No, I don't think he experience full-on withdrawal. Just enough for Debra.

Love Roni. Terra has appeared on several shows. She seems a lot like her mother, immature, and unfortunately talks as she is being portrayed. 

This episode was hard to watch. 

[islandgal140]

7 hours ago, Barb23 said:

 

 You're right - John's fake detox was all for show to impress Debra.  He wanted her to see in person what he would go through to prove his love for her.  Doing it cold turkey was icing on the cake. I'm sure he really did stop the drugs for a day or two to get the withdrawal symptoms going & IMO, he portrayed that well.  But as soon as Debra woke up & John was feeling better eating crackers & bananas, I knew he had started up with the drugs again vs being clean.  He does seem rather stupid in hiding his drugs.  He leaves them almost out in the open just like he did with his secret papers. Like he wants to get caught.

He thinks he is being slick. This time he hid them in a  decorative box in Debra's daughter empty bedroom. He did the same shit in his first marriage. Hiding his drugs in his daughter's dollhouse which seemed to be stored in the garage/basement (no longer played with). I think it is a sorta "last place you'd think to look for an addicts stash' type ruse. 

[crgirl412]

12 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

So John's father made him do seriously dangerous scams when he was a kid. Almost makes sense why John killed him. But what did he gain from it other than some twisted kind of revenge?

John played Debra so hard, pretending to go through withdrawal. She never stood a chance against this guy. I wonder if that doctor was in on the scam withdrawal with John.

OMG, Debra, the way to "fix it" is simple. Don't choose a sociopathic criminal over your children and grandchildren.

I thought the mafia way was not to go after the families of people you have a problem with. Weren't families exempt? It sounds like John's father had some twisted version of the mafia way in his head and that's what he passed on to John.

She is. She and Patricia Arquette are probaby going to be going toe to toe for the Emmy in their category.

He really was dope sick.  One can't fake that kind of sweating, vomiting and high BP.  I'm an RN and see addicts all of the time.  I have to assess if they are in withdrawl by administering the COWS (Clinical Opioid Withdrawl Scale) and treat as necessary. 

https://www.drugabuse.gov/sites/default/files/files/ClinicalOpiateWithdrawalScale.pdf

I think he's even more of sicko to put himself through a withdrawl just to get back into Deb's good graces.   

[sadie]

Part of Debras motivations are sunk costs. She doesn’t want to admit how wrong she was, everyone else was right and that all the time and energy she has put into John was for nothing. The scenes of them cuddling and her smug smile made me want to slap her. You could see what she was thinking “yes! I knew he was a good guy and look how snugly happy I am! I STILL have a man!”. Her son turning her away was done well, he wasn’t hysterical he basically just said “you do you, but I’m out”. Good for him. Poor Ronnie, she is obviously a very capable young woman and to have John go after her in that way was chilling and heartless. This guy really is a psycho, the fact that his sister turned out okay despite having the same upbringing as him really shows he was just born a psycho.

[QuinnM]

1 hour ago, sadie said:

Good for him. Poor Ronnie, she is obviously a very capable young woman and to have John go after her in that way was chilling and heartless.

The actress that is playing Ronnie is really doing a good job.  She never said one word in that whole scene but you felt how devasting it was and the fact that she knew there was nothing she could do to stop it.

[zillabreeze]

48 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

The actress that is playing Ronnie is really doing a good job.  She never said one word in that whole scene but you felt how devasting it was and the fact that she knew there was nothing she could do to stop it.

I was really ambivalent about the Roni/actress, but she knocked that scene out of the park!

I felt her gutpunch right on my couch.  To love a job, give it your best, and lose it due to a psychopath, all while processing your complete helplessness....  Of course, she couldn't speak.  That was SO the real life reaction.

[TattleTeeny]

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I think he's even more of sicko to put himself through a withdrawl just to get back into Deb's good graces.   

Right?! Dude, channel that (frankly impressive) commitment, hard work, and dedication to something not criminal!

[Starlight925]

Juno Temple, who is playing Ronnie, is doing an amazing job.  Especially considering she's British!  So she's not only doing an American accent, but she's doing the vocal fry and the associated mannerisms, all while acting the part.  Awesome!

I heard Eric Bana (Australian) and Juno (British) on a joint interview, and it was so great to hear them both in their native accents.  They are both killing it.

[newyawk]

The scene where young John gets himself hit by a car made me guffaw, It was like seeing a blowup doll get hit. 

 

I can't wait to see this POS get his comeuppance. 

[blackdahlia]

John was in real withdrawal. As an opiate addict for for  25 years, I don't know why he didn't go on methadone. I have been on methadone for almost 18 years.  Also how is he getting pharmaceutical opioids if he doesn't work in a hospital anymore? It would be a lot easier and cheaper to buy heroin. Most opiate addicts start with pharmaceuticals and when they get cut off by drs move to heroin. I am surprised he didn't clean up the blood from shooting up between his toes.

 

Also who exactly was Trey? He called Debra "Mom". I thought she just had the two daughters and no sons and neither daughter was married. I know Toby is her nephew, the son of her murdered sister but I can't figure out who Trey is.

Edited December 25, 2018 by blackdahlia
fix spelling

[Starlight925]

42 minutes ago, blackdahlia said:

John was in real withdrawal. As an opiate addict for for  25 years, I don't know why he didn't go on methadone. I have been on methadone for almost 18 years.  Also how is he getting pharmaceutical opioids if he doesn't work in a hospital anymore? It would be a lot easier and cheaper to buy heroin. Most opiate addicts start with pharmaceuticals and when they get cut off by drs move to heroin. I am surprised he didn't clean up the blood from shooting up between his toes.

 

Also who exactly was Trey? He called Debra "Mom". I thought she just had the two daughters and no sons and neither daughter was married. I know Toby is her nephew, the son of her murdered sister but I can't figure out who Trey is.

 

First of all, wow, thank you for sharing your experience.  

As for why John went cold turkey, my thoughts are that he wanted to show the horrors of getting off, so that Debra would know that he was so sincere in getting off drugs and wanting to be with her.  He wanted her to see him shake, have high fevers, throw up, etc., so that she would see just how much poor John loves her.  It gave him more ammunition in his fight to keep his con their relationship alive.

Like, look what I'm putting myself through for you.  For us.  For our love.  Do you see how much you mean to me???

He also knew he had his stash, so that if cold turkey went too horribly, he could always sneak his stash.  Which, as we saw from the bleeding site on his toe, he already was.

As for Trey, I believe Debra had 2 other kids besides the girls.  The other kids weren't mentioned much because it was the girls who were instrumental in the Dirty John part of her life.  Kudos to Trey for kicking out his own mom to protect his kids.

Edited December 25, 2018 by Sterling

[QuinnM]

17 minutes ago, Sterling said:

As for Trey, I believe Debra had 2 other kids besides the girls.  The other kids weren't mentioned much because it was the girls who were instrumental in the Dirty John part of her life.  Kudos to Trey for kicking out his own mom to protect his kids.

She said in one of the first episodes that Trey was the one she never worried about.  Then it was his children that Tara wanted him not to have anything to do with.  So he's been mentioned almost in passing.

[princelina]

On 12/24/2018 at 8:45 AM, Madding crowd said:

John is so incredibly vile. To steal from his own sister and threaten her like that. I felt so bad for Veronica when he started in on her. Still feel that Connie’s character doesn’t do much more than look confused, so I can never tell what Debbie is thinking. 

IMO that's why she's portraying this character so effectively.  If she were to admit she knew she was being conned, she would have to do something about it.

 

On 12/24/2018 at 12:55 PM, absolutelyido said:

John is just vile, a psychopath beyond redemption. I don't understand how he thought attacking Ronnie's workplace was going to help him with Debra. Unless he thought he could get away with it; he would get revenge on Ronnie because she would know it was him, but he would convince Debra that he had nothing to do with it.

IMO it was total revenge.  Especially since he would know she knew it was him, but telling her mom on him would not work because mom won't believe it, and she can't prove it.  He's excited that she will know it's him and can't do anything about it.  And she was warned to step off or get worse.  If they keep this storyline up, be prepared for him to give her a challenging look whilst she fumes.

 

On 12/24/2018 at 3:56 PM, HunterHunted said:

The thing is that if Debra had any other maladaptive behavior she'd recognize why her kids wouldn't think she was safe to be around their children. If she had alcohol or drug issues, sex addiction, was cutting or other types of self-harm, or had an eating disorder, she'd get it. If every time she showed up for a family event and refused to eat or found herself running to the bathroom to purge, Debra would understand that she's not great to be around the grandkids or model healthy behaviors. But because it's LOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE, she's perplexed by her kids' reactions.

Disagree.  Addicts are addicts are addicts, and they all have an excuse for their behavior.  (The behavior I am talking about here is her addiction to LOVE, as Dr. Drew says. She can't admit she's wrong or she'll be single again.  That sucks!)  The deciding factor is when they really want to change their behavior, because admitting they have a problem to others means they have to do something about it.  As long as they want to do the destructive behavior, they won't/can't admit it; they just keep thinking to themselves that they can control it/change it without anyone knowing about it.  In case they want to keep doing it.

 

On 12/24/2018 at 6:25 PM, preeya said:

The father, likely wasn't a real connected mob guy, just a "MOB WANNABE" and a lowlife con artist.

Denice actually referred to him that way in the episode.

 

On 12/24/2018 at 7:22 PM, Showthyme said:

Opioid addicts go cold turkey for many reasons: 1) they have already been through rehab many times, 2) are generally non-compliant and don't want people telling them what to do, 3) are arrogant and think they don't need help from anyone and 4) treatment is often suboxone which they consider substituting one drug for another, and 5) there is plenty of information on the Internet on how to detox. Treatment is very expensive and for the most part, ineffective. I'm not saying detoxing outside of a medical care is smart but addicts think differently.

John had experience with this drug and knew just how quickly he would experience withdrawal symptoms and what to expect. No, I don't think he experience full-on withdrawal. Just enough for Debra.

I think addicts would all, in their heart of hearts, like to be clean, so IMO he did the detox with a double minded motivation:  to show her what he was made of/get her back/control her, with the double motivation of being free of it.  So he does the detox, suffers the symptoms, and then when it's over and he's expected to start living, he realizes that sucks and it's easier to get high, but now he know he has to do it between his toes to keep from getting caught.

 

13 hours ago, sadie said:

Part of Debras motivations are sunk costs. She doesn’t want to admit how wrong she was, everyone else was right and that all the time and energy she has put into John was for nothing. The scenes of them cuddling and her smug smile made me want to slap her. You could see what she was thinking “yes! I knew he was a good guy and look how snugly happy I am! I STILL have a man!”. Her son turning her away was done well, he wasn’t hysterical he basically just said “you do you, but I’m out”. Good for him. Poor Ronnie, she is obviously a very capable young woman and to have John go after her in that way was chilling and heartless. This guy really is a psycho, the fact that his sister turned out okay despite having the same upbringing as him really shows he was just born a psycho.

Sunk costs are what I called in the 90's "the Ricki Lake effect" - her guests were always complaining about their unfaithful asshole boyfriends, and then whining "but I've invested SO MUCH TIME into this relationship!"  

[teddysmom]

On 12/24/2018 at 4:16 AM, crgirl412 said:

so is Deb that pathetic-sounding IRL?

yes

I was confused about the Trey character as well.  Forgot she had other kids. 

Why didn't Terra explain who was doing this to her employer (what kind of business was it)? It's not her fault.  

Shea Whigham is everywhere!!  Just saw him on Homecoming.  Do we know that John's father was like this?  Because that is some fucked up shit. It's one thing for adults to be scam artists, but to use your kids.  

I finally figured out who was playing the sister! She was on Justified!  Joelle Carter! 

[lucindabelle]

On the one hand, I applaud Trey.

On the other, he sent her back to the narcissist abuser. Unsure how to feel about that.

[Ohwell]

48 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

I finally figured out who was playing the sister! She was on Justified!  Joelle Carter! 

Thanks! For the life of me I couldn't figure out where I'd seen her before.

[Mom2twoNonna2-3]

1 hour ago, teddysmom said:

yes

I was confused about the Trey character as well.  Forgot she had other kids. 

Why didn't Terra explain who was doing this to her employer (what kind of business was it)? It's not her fault.  

Shea Whigham is everywhere!!  Just saw him on Homecoming.  Do we know that John's father was like this?  Because that is some fucked up shit. It's one thing for adults to be scam artists, but to use your kids.  

I finally figured out who was playing the sister! She was on Justified!  Joelle Carter! 

On the podcast his sister said the Dad was in fact like that. He taught John to be a conman and to not respect women.

It looked like Ronnie worked for some type of spa or plastic surgeon. He was doing it to Ronnie. Terra was the young girl who wanted mommy to stay home from work and rub her head (I just can't with these kids and their entitlement).

[mythoughtis]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

On the one hand, I applaud Trey.

On the other, he sent her back to the narcissist abuser. Unsure how to feel about that.

Its the same  philosophy used for addicts. If you don’t cut them off, you are enabling them - sometimes enabling them to death.  So you get advised to not let them in your home,nor provide them money or access to your car, bank accounts, etc. keep them away from your children, etc. 

In this case, she’s already been shown to choose him over her children, and herself. Ronnie lost her job, John ‘jokingly’ suggested shooting one of her children, he threatened her nephew. She was shown all the various laws he’d broken, the threats to his ex-wife and other women. She ignored it all and went back with him.  

Trey needs to protect his wife and children first. It’s not like he can lock Debra in her room until she comes to her senses.   It’s also a reality that people sometimes join their abusers in abusing others.   Debra is so clueless that she’d bring  others home and not intervene if John threatened them. 

[teddysmom]

1 hour ago, Mom2twoNonna2one said:

It looked like Ronnie worked for some type of spa or plastic surgeon. He was doing it to Ronnie. Terra was the young girl who wanted mommy to stay home from work and rub her head (I just can't with these kids and their entitlement).

That's right, I get confused on what spoiled brat is which.  Rub my head, my hot chocolate is cold.

Fuck off. 

[Neurochick]

On 12/24/2018 at 3:48 PM, Barb23 said:

My husband & I have heard the same thing about the mob/mafia not going after the families.  You could sure see the wheels spinning in Ronnie's head when her boss was explaining things.  First she seemed shocked in hearing what the doctor was telling her then the lightbulb went off and she realized who was the cause.

This is my take on John's dad.  He came off to me like a wannabe East coast gangster.  Like a person who watched movies made in the 1970's about New York, that showed a gritty, tough place.  The scam they pulled off, eating glass; John's dad would not have had the balls to try that in a restaurant in NYC.  

I laughed that the actor playing John's dad was Shea Whigham, who played Nucky's brother in Boardwalk Empire.

Quote

Tonia divorced  him and turned him in when she found out he was stealing drugs meant for patients. I think that’s how he ended up in prison in Ohio. 

Actually, Tonia didn't turn John in.  It was another nurse who saw John steal the drugs.  Tonia was told by her boss I believe and the nurse who saw John, that if the police got involved and searched the house, they could arrest Tonia and take the children from her, that's why Tonia searched the house and found the drugs in the daughter's playhouse I think.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Neurochick

[teddysmom]

37 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

My husband & I have heard the same thing about the mob/mafia not going after the families.

Yeah I thought families were always off limits. 

 

41 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

John's dad was Shea Whigham,

When he was in the hospital and you couldn't really see his face I kept thinking Is that Shea Whigham? Then it flashes back and it was.  

[yourmomiseasy]

On 12/25/2018 at 11:05 AM, Sterling said:

Juno Temple, who is playing Ronnie, is doing an amazing job.  Especially considering she's British!  So she's not only doing an American accent, but she's doing the vocal fry and the associated mannerisms, all while acting the part.  Awesome!

I heard Eric Bana (Australian) and Juno (British) on a joint interview, and it was so great to hear them both in their native accents.  They are both killing it.

I think the whole cast is doing an amazing job.  They are especially good when you consider they are playing real people.  If you compare the portrayals to the real people they are spot on.  Even some of the expressions Connie does are dead ringers for real life Debra.

[mythoughtis]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

This is my take on John's dad.  He came off to me like a wannabe East coast gangster.  Like a person who watched movies made in the 1970's about New York, that showed a gritty, tough place.  The scam they pulled off, eating glass; John's dad would not have had the balls to try that in a restaurant in NYC.  

I laughed that the actor playing John's dad was Shea Whigham, who played Nucky's brother in Boardwalk Empire.

Actually, Tonia didn't turn John in.  It was another nurse who saw John steal the drugs.  Tonia was told by her boss I believe and the nurse who saw John, that if the police got involved and searched the house, they could arrest Tonia and take the children from her, that's why Tonia searched the house and found the drugs in the daughter's playhouse I think.

 

According to the Bravo show, your version. According to google, my version on Tonia turning him in. He asked for the divorce though,(I was incorrect on that part) and that’s how she really found out about the affair. 

Edited December 26, 2018 by mythoughtis

[lezlers]

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 8:32 AM, Empress1 said:

I don't think it's awful at all. It was completely sensible, especially when her son was like "Look, you do you, but I have kids and John is scary, so fuck that." It's really the only acceptable response from him - he's got to protect HIS family. Actions have consequences. Also, I highly doubt this is the first time Debra has chosen a man over her kids; this is just the first dangerous one.

Yep.  And all of that "I made a vow...for better or for worse" bullshit had me howling.  John was her FIFTH husband.  So NOW she gives a shit about her vows?  Please.  Just one of about 50 reasons I hate Debra.  When she kept going on and on about how nothing is more important than her family I wanted to punch her through the screen.  I wanted Ronnie to tell her what John did with her employer but knowing Deb, she either wouldn't believe her or would just continue to wring her hands and make excuses for him. 

I really loathe Debra.

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 9:25 AM, Empress1 said:

A lot of people on Twitter were like "OMG THAT VOICE." It really is awful. That's really how Terra sounds though. 

Terra asked her mother to stay home from work to pet her hair because she got dumped. I can't.

The real Terra sounds even worse than the actress!  I almost had to turn the podcast off a couple of times, it was THAT bad.

[DangerousMinds]

34 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

According to the Bravo show, your version. According to google, my version on Tonia turning him in. He asked for the divorce though,(I was incorrect on that part) and that’s how she really found out about the affair. 

I think IRL Tonia was the one who turned him in.