S37.E11: So Smart They're Dumb

[JKL845]

I'll just say Emily and Gabby are equally attractive. I find it very mean spirited to criticize Emily especially since we know absolutely nothing about her except that she is shy. 

I agree with Nick about the Carl move. Too soon, they needed to get out a couple more Goliaths first and he and Davie should not have been blindsided like that. Christian and Gabby actually did to Nick and Davie what Gabby was crying about Carl doing to her! 

I like all the remaining players, which is rare!

[mikewho]

I have to say something about the Family Reunion thing. Every season, people say 'They've only been away for a month and it's not like they won't see them again for another year! Get over it.'

But I think about 3 things.

One, I believe it's true that when you've been out there for a month, not knowing who you can trust, worrying about being blindsided, being hungry and tired, loooong days thinking game play 24/7, making deals...well, that would take a toll on me. And you have to try to keep that up.

Second, think about the family members who show UP for that. They've known their loved one is out there, going through who knows what. Of course they'll be happy to see THEIR loved one. Which could also break down the player's emotions. And traveling all that distance.

I know that if I were on Survivor, even if I was keeping it together, when I saw my mom if she came (RIP) I KNOW that she would cry seeing me, and that I was basically okay. That would make me cry, honestly. And I'm not a crier.

Also, and I could be in a minority here, some complain that it goes on too long and takes too much from seeing actual game play. To be honest, I'm relieved to get away from that for one friggin' episode. I get TIRED of seeing strategy, strategy, strategy every episode. This is at least a break from it.

[ByaNose]

I just think the family members be in the challenge. You fly them all the way out there to sit on some wooden bleachers. How about the family memeber being teamed up with another player? That would sure mix it up a little. Personally, I haven't cared about the family visit in years but if they had the family members do the challenge I might be on board again.

[KimberStormer]

Ok, let me try again. (On mobile so I can't quote.) I don't mean Jeremy's hotness, per se, made him a threat. (though if you think looks have nothing to do with how the jury thinks of you, let's go into business together, I have 10 million in a Nigerian bank account that I need to move overseas.) I mean that who is seen as an immunity threat is almost entirely based on body type. Big muscley guys like Jeremy are always going to be seen as an immunity threat who has to go asap post merge, unless there is a scarier threat like Joe. Also, yes, I also said he spent the whole game hiding and huddling and trying not to draw attention to himself...and was still called out as the ringleader by the Witches. Davie is just not like this, as  far as I can tell anyway. There's a reason that for most of the history of the show voting out threats has been the common strategy, not keeping them in to be a shield. 90% of players don't need shielding.

If Hannah's argument had been "I needed David around to be my meat shield because I'm such a massive threat otherwise" do you think that would work on the jury? Did Denise need Todd to be her meat shield? How about if Laurel claimed she kept Dom and Wendell to be her meat shields? I think Jeremy played an incredible game and the meat shield was a fantastic addition to the Survivor tactical arsenal but if it's going to become an excuse/rationalization for already utr players to keep people they can't possibly beat around, it's going to be the new Naviti Strong, fun-killing "strategy" that just makes for more boring Pagongings.

Edited December 7, 2018 by KimberStormer
apparently on mobile I also double-post. sorry, I don't know how to phone.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Davie:  I want Christian around so I'm not perceived as a threat.
Audience:  That's stupid.  Nobody sees Davie as a threat.
Davie:  (Is happy)

Bert: "Why do you have a banana in your ear, Ernie?"

Ernie: "To keep the crocodiles away."

Bert: "But, there are no crocodiles around here."

Ernie: "You see, it's working."

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Gummo said:

Of course, the flip side of not being seen as a threat is not being seen as a player, either. If Davie makes it to the end, he better have a damn good speech ready to make his case. 

I'm not sure anyone else has a much better case to make than Davie, with the possible exception of Nick.   As far as I can remember, Angelina, Kara, Alison and Mike really haven't done squat in the game.  Christian would probably beat any of them, but I'm assuming the others realize this, and will not allow him to make FTC.

I think Nick would have the edge in relationships, if both he and Davie make it to FTC, and would be at least equal to Davie in resume.  I tend to think that any remaining David that makes it to FTC by himself would beat any of the Goliath girls or Mike.   

[Coco88]

Say Davie doesn’t warn Christian and Christian doesn’t play his idol and goes to jury.  Who is the next big threat.  Gabby, Angelina, Nick and Mike have never won immunity.  Possibly Alison or Kara but why should Davie trust that the Goliaths wouldn’t just stick together and wouldn’t pick off the remaining Davids.  And as he said during reward he thinks Angelina, Mike and Nick have a sub alliance which Mike and Nick do have (The Rockstars), so Nick is protected.

I don’t understand why more people don’t see Davie as a threat.  He’s likable.  He’s won immunity, he came in second this time.  He’s found an idol and never blabbed about it.  He played an idol  and got out a great threat in John.  He’s a total threat

Edited December 7, 2018 by Coco88
Spelling

[NutMeg]

I don't think meat shield is the right expression, but I do see why Davie would want to keep Christian around for the moment.

As I see it, Christian is really not good at the strategic part of Survivor. He doesn't see dangers coming his way until someone spells it out for him. His gameplay is entirely reactive (to events/circumstances created by others). However, because of his brilliant intellect, he's perceived by his opponents as being the strategic mastermind who's behind moves that really were thought out by some combination of Davie, Nick, Carl, etc. But he's not - maybe he would be able to strategize, but it's like it's something he doesn't think of doing unless he really has to, and it's mostly to join others who bring him in on their plan.

So, as long as Christian is around, he's the figurehead mastermind that crystallises the attention of former Goliaths. It's like he's a smokescreen strategist that helps to conceal the most effective strategic brainpower. 

Also, we don't know who Davie is close to in this game. To be fair, we don't know who most of them are close with, as this episode showed. But maybe Christian, having been saved once more by Davie, is more likely to vote with him than Gabby would have been. "More likely" doesn't mean sure thing, but the odds are still better that those of Gabby voting with Davie.

Otherwise, that tribal council made me picture Julius Caesar, whispering sadly, "tu quote", then whipping a necklace from his sandal and trowing it to Brutus' face. The reel rewinds, blood goes back in, wounds heal, Caesar is up and walking backwards, the idol has worked its charm. 

[Thalia]

17 hours ago, ByaNose said:

Did Mike and his partner of many years even touch? If they did I missed it.

I thought this was very strange.  They hugged.  But it was the hug equivalent of shaking hands with an acquaintance.   Not big on PDAs, our Mike. 

ETA to apologize for typing what others have typed.  This thread has seen more use of "PDA" than Mike and his boyfriend have in six years! 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Thalia

[amazingracefan]

1 hour ago, NutMeg said:

I don't think meat shield is the right expression, but I do see why Davie would want to keep Christian around for the moment.

As I see it, Christian is really not good at the strategic part of Survivor. He doesn't see dangers coming his way until someone spells it out for him. His gameplay is entirely reactive (to events/circumstances created by others). However, because of his brilliant intellect, he's perceived by his opponents as being the strategic mastermind who's behind moves that really were thought out by some combination of Davie, Nick, Carl, etc. But he's not - maybe he would be able to strategize, but it's like it's something he doesn't think of doing unless he really has to, and it's mostly to join others who bring him in on their plan.

So, as long as Christian is around, he's the figurehead mastermind that crystallises the attention of former Goliaths. It's like he's a smokescreen strategist that helps to conceal the most effective strategic brainpower. 

Also, we don't know who Davie is close to in this game. To be fair, we don't know who most of them are close with, as this episode showed. But maybe Christian, having been saved once more by Davie, is more likely to vote with him than Gabby would have been. "More likely" doesn't mean sure thing, but the odds are still better that those of Gabby voting with Davie.

Otherwise, that tribal council made me picture Julius Caesar, whispering sadly, "tu quote", then whipping a necklace from his sandal and trowing it to Brutus' face. The reel rewinds, blood goes back in, wounds heal, Caesar is up and walking backwards, the idol has worked its charm. 

They seem to see Christian's threat being his popularity.  Gabby in contrast didn't seem that popular.

[princelina]

19 hours ago, fatewemake said:

I'm tired of the goodbye messages where they say the were voted out because they were a threat --- even if it is true statement.  A little surprised that Gabby went that route, but at least she didn't cry again.

If a survivor uses a goodbye message that says "I was voted out because I'm a threat" have the producers say "no, you were not...  please redo your goodbye message".  And, make sure to show us the reaction :-).

I don't mind because I like to see their original reaction so I can judge them for it :). That being said, the only time I excuse "I'm a threat" is for the first person voted out, because that sucks and they are probably embarrassed as well as disappointed, and need to give themselves a reason.

 

18 hours ago, Paws said:

Right? They barely hugged and stood a mile away from each other. It was very very weird and I’m worried that either a) cbs said no gay kissing or b) they broke up while back but the loved one lists were final so he came out of obligation. It was so weird.

Mike and his bf had more contact than Christian and his girlfriend.

 

11 hours ago, thejuicer said:

I thought Christian and his girlfriend were very sweet together. And kind of how I imagine my reunion would be with my husband. Jeff was teasing them with "Finally they hug!" Some people are shy with PDA, some long term couples are not physically affectionate in public. I felt like Jeff expected Emily to jump into Christian's arms and wrap her legs around him, Bachelor style. And I agree with others who have said how cruel it is to make fun of Emily's looks. 

I am one who doesn't get the Gabby beauty - I think she, Christian and Emily are all in the same league looks-wise - which is to say regular looking people with a nerdy bent.

 

8 hours ago, marys1000 said:

What was the vote that split the relationship between Mike and Christian?  Gabby.   

I thought the Mike/Christian alliance was over when Mike turned into a weenie and ditched the secret cross-tribal alliance.

 

5 hours ago, paul4295 said:

I just came here to say I thought the title of the episode should have been "Have a nice flight home.  Watch lots of movies."  If you missed it, that's what Christian said to Emily (I may not have the exact words, but that was basically it) after losing the reward challenge and not being picked to go on the reward. I thought that was hilarious.

Yes we were howling in my house too :D

 

5 hours ago, Dewey Decimate said:

I confess to having base judgments about Christian's gf's appearance, but immediately checked myself and simultaneously wondered how much body-relevant talk we'd see about Nick's dad, who appears to be in far worse physical shape, but also happens to be, ya know, a man.

But he's a dad and not a romantic partner or he might have gotten some too.

 

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

At this point in the game, it seems inevitable there is going to be at least one person that makes it to the finals who thinks they really deserve to be there but is going to get laughed at by the jury.  Like Hannah and Ken during the Adam Klein season.  Hannah especially truly thought she played the best game and had made all these brilliant moves that nobody remembered.  Angelina would be a Hannah.

I think Allison would be the Hannah.  In addition to negotiating for rice ( :D ) Angelina was at the bottom of the pile for a while and managed to survive and get out.  Allison seems to think she's this big threat because ?.  Didn't she even tell John that after him she was the biggest physical threat?  While Alec, Dan, Karl and Kara were still in the game?

[lids]

Christian’s immunity idol looked like the fakest idol that’s ever been a real idol on the show. What was that hanging off of it? Cat hair?

I understand why Davie told Christian about the vote and it made strategic sense to me. Davie just lost one of his closest allies in Carl. You could really see the difference in Davie’s bond with Carl on his last reward challenge verses the way he interacted on this reward challenge with this group- I.e. Davie doesn’t seem to bond with Mike at all. It also doesn’t seem like he trusts Angelina.

But Nick, who is also one of his closest allies, bonds with Mike, Angelina and Allison. When it comes time to vote someone out, Davie is more likely to be on the outside of that social circle than just about anyone else. But if he keeps Christian, people will be so focused on getting Christian out, the lesser social bonds never get tested. Plus Davie genuinely likes Christian and might be able to form a Christian final 4/5 where he feels like he has a stronger foothold. I was really impressed that Davie didn’t even go to Nick and reason that he wanted to tell Christian about the vote. This led me to understand that although Nick is Davie’s #2, Davie realizes that they have different final agendas.

Emily showing up on the island is just like when your work spouse’s real spouse comes to visit at work. It’s not jealousy or anything. It’s just that the social dynamic shifts all of a sudden and you try to act cool about it but you’re just thinking this situation just got real and it’s not fun or cute anymore.

[eel2178]

19 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

I loved the way Christian looked around at everybody... summing up their reactions. He’s reality show gold.

I really think people were expecting him to be socially awkward because he is so intelligent. However, he has no problem reading social cues the way someone with Asperger's would.

[lids]

I saw this exert from Christian’s pre-game interview and it seems to suggest that what we read as his social quirkinesses and bad game play are, in some ways, part of his strategy.

Quote

One day before the season began, speaking with The Hollywood Reporter on location in Fiji, Christian opined about what it would take to win the game.

Acknowledging that there's "a bit of a glass ceiling" when it comes to success for his perceived character archetype, Christian offered a hypothesis for how he could break through the million-dollar barrier: "By making the game crazy enough where people don't know what the hell is going on. As a consequence, if I have just a little bit more information than everybody else, and nobody can see that I'm in the position to win, then my hyper-adaptivity will be what allows me to get to the finals and win."

Asked what it means to make the game "crazy," Christian was happy to elaborate: "It means making a move at some point that appears like it's not in my best interest.

"I wonder if there's sometimes some strategy to strategically putting yourself on the bottom at a very important point in the game," he continued, adding that he views Survivor as a game revolving around "a cycle of power," rather than one group seizing a majority and running the table. "I think there's some value to recognizing there's a cycle to the game, and it will eventually come back around."

[TVbitch]

It's NOT what I want to have happen, but now that the Goliaths have the numbers again, it would just be stupid for them not to take out the Davids. The remaining Davids have all been stronger players than the remaining Goliaths. The Goliaths have to know they have a better shot going up against each other. But hopefully the boneheaded decisions (on both sides) to give up the numbers will continue.

Edited December 7, 2018 by TVbitch

[violet and green]

6 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

2)  Making the so-called "Big Move" at Tribal Council to save (Christian?)

Yes. Davie played his HI to save Christian. The three Davids (Carl, Davie, and Nick) blew through three advantages (an idol, an idol nullifier, and a vote steal) to save Christian, and to claw the numbers advantage off the Goliaths...

And then Christian and his stupid bestie-tv-girlfwend ruined it all. I'd be mad, too, but I'm glad Davie kept his cool more than Nick and kept Christian in the loop. God love Christian, but saying 'We have to get Alison out now' this ep - arrgh! No, mate, that was last week - but instead of going along with Carl and co and voting Alison you had to placate your wounded birdie buddy and get Carl out then, and screw up the numbers your tribemates worked so hard to get. I don't think I'll ever forgive him for that.

But glorious to see Gabby go out like that! Hahahahahaha!

Will have to rewatch that ep to watch it all build. Her eyes went all strange and flat and affectless and gleaming like a shark once she realised Christian cared for his girlfriend the way he does, and she, Gabby, was no longer girl number one. You'd have to have been blind in Christian's shoes to not notice it. And oh how the waterworks dried up!

Edited December 7, 2018 by violet and green
typos agogo

[mishap]

I felt for Emily, being in that situation.  It's something I would not be comfortable doing.  I would feel awkward and self conscious.  I think Christian was surprised she was there and didn't want to make her any more uncomfortable.  Not sure he succeeded, but he tried.  Just my take.  

I also think that Christian and Mike were a little hesitant to be so close to their loved ones, because they felt self conscious about their appearance and their smell.  lol    

I am not much of a Christian fan, but I am glad that he didn't go and that Gabby did, this time.  

[Eolivet]

6 hours ago, blackwing said:

Hannah especially truly thought she played the best game and had made all these brilliant moves that nobody remembered. 

Hannah's problem was more that everyone remembered her moves, and decided they were objectively the wrong ones. Hannah went into final tribal council thinking it was an essay test when it was really multiple choice, and the jury was sitting there with her incorrect score sheet that they filled out on her behalf. All Adam had to do was wave the answer booklet around and say "wrong answer, wrong answer, wrong answer" and the jury -- who designed the test -- agreed.

Angelina at final tribal council, if she gets there, will give each jury member a typed essay, plus her score sheet, and then will proceed to tell them that she's also holding the answer booklet that says she got all the answers right.

[Wandering Snark]

Just a few late to the game mentions:

I know he very seldom editorializes but I could just about hear Probst say 'Gabby, the tribe has spoken, and you deserved this.' *snuff* Because she really did. What was her best case scenario here?? Everyone then gives her credit for all of "their" moves and vote her out next as a threat? It was awkward, like her.

Some are saying it was really Davie that saved Christian this time around (along with, as mentioned, the worst looking idol ever seen) but what that really means is that Christian's social game saved him because Davie felt enough for him to let him know it was going down. That's the over-arching advantage to a strong social game, you often "make your own luck" as they say.

[violet and green]

All my recent gnashing of teeth and wailing aside, this is truly a great season of Survivor - one of my very top favorite seasons of all time. So many excellent characters and some hilarious moves and lovable bonds.

I wish we could have a do-over of the last three eps with different results, but am curious to see who or what turns this thing around now and if it is possible for one of the remaining three Davids to still take this whole thing out.

[Wandering Snark]

A bit more thinking on Gabby, I think it WAS the loved one visit that broke Gabby. Not that she wanted to be his girlfriend and was jealous she'd never be though. But in the way of she felt, to quote a former IL Governor, "I've got this thing, and it's f'ing GOLDEN." But then she realized that just his role/way he comes at life while she felt what they had together was because she drew it out of him. They were "perfect together" but then she saw the girlfriend and realized maybe she wasn't quite as special as she thought she was. The luster was off. Thus her ill-fated plan came together.

[Brookside]

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 6:03 PM, Lamb18 said:

 

Kara's brother, Eric, looks pretty nice. Maybe it's time for another Blood vs. Water.

 

He reminded me of the guy on the Brawny paper towels.

[30 Helens]

13 hours ago, Special K said:

Alison is a threat?

Alison may be a huge threat; we just don’t see it.  The fact that we don’t see much of her leads me to believe that her time is limited, and the editors don’t want to waste time on a narrative that’s not going anywhere.  The same goes for Kara.  I think if they were headed to final 3, we’d have seen them more heavily featured and they might look more proactive. (These are not spoilers, just my gut feelings.) That’s why I’m also sure that at least one of Christian, Nick or Davie is going to the end. 

1 hour ago, mishap said:

I felt for Emily, being in that situation.  

I feel for Emily, being so heavily scrutinized and criticized on these boards (and likely others). I just hope she doesn’t read them. 

[IDreamofJoaquin]

I'm sure Gabby knew Christian had a girlfriend.  

While they were chatting on the pontoon boat (really cool BTW) 5 seconds before Davie said he wasn't on board I told my husband "why do they think he's on board?"  I've never seen Mike or Angelina even talk to him.  

The real reason I came to chat was ANGELINA OH MY STARS SHUT UP GIRL.   I have never heard someone give such a pumped up speech about themselves.  We see you, Angelina. Blabbing on about how she was the woman she is because of her mom.  That doesn't always mean that you're wonderful.  I was embarrassed for her bragging about the rice because she did that for votes, not out of the goodness of just loving everyone.  Plus, her mom will see that later. She doesn't need to tell that story right then and there.  

I don't get the cast shock and awe about Christian using his idol.  Davie told him.  It wasn't the blindside they thought.  The real move was Nick/Mike/Angelina voting for Gabby. 

 

I get why they are emotional about their loved ones.  Can you imagine being on an island just waiting for people to stab you in the back, to constantly be trying to get someone out and not fully trusting anyone?  A loved one is a safe harbor in these situations. They are the only ones purely rooting for YOU.   Christian really had a great point about remembering what it is like to take someone for granted.  My husband and I did a long distance relationship for some time.  The times we had to part I've never cried so hard in my life. Sometimes when I get so mad and frustrated with him I remember how I felt then. 

This is a good season.  There have been some good season recently of people wanting to play.  I look back to Heidi and Jenna in Amazon and it was just like the earlier days people wanted to hang out and have some fun.

[SVNBob]

13 hours ago, blackwing said:

If Davie hadn't been trying to save Christian, he wouldn't have told Christian that he was the target.  Christian thought that Alison was the target.  Davie knew Christian had an idol so essentially told Christian to play his idol.  Since he knew Christian had an idol, I'm assuming he voted for Christian to make it look like he was with the others.

Exactly.  Davie wanted to appear like he got blindsided too, even though he was the only person at that TC who knew 100% who would be voted out.

Ok, maybe not 100%.  There was a possibility that Christian wouldn't save himself.  But that would have been all Christian's fault.  And Christian was walking down the Path of the Dead, he'd remember that Davie tried to warn him.  Which would probably put him on Davie's side if Davie made FTC.

 

In other words, warning Christian made this TC a win-win for Davie.

[amazingracefan]

Christian was the only one voting for Allison, looked like he was blindsided to me.  Sure they split the vote, but that's expected if someone has an idol, and they got him to play it as well.  I'd be surprised if he trusts anyone that much.

[KimberStormer]

12 hours ago, Coco88 said:

Say Davie doesn’t warn Christian and Christian doesn’t play his idol and goes to jury.  Who is the next big threat.  

 

I don't know, maybe one of the three people who didn't come to him with a Final 4 alliance, who will, therefore, be in the minority next vote at Final 7?

This is part of the thing, I wish I knew who Davie did want to go with, if not that F4.  He would crush Angelina and Mike.  Nick is the only one he has to worry about there, and he could presumably recruit Gabby or whatever spare Goliath is left to vote out Nick at 5 if he wants.  I mean, another thing about Jeremy and his meat shield strategy: he voted out Joe at F8 (and tried to even earlier, at F9!)  The only person with a prayer of beating him after that was Kelley Wentworth -- but he had an alliance to see him through.  Davie seems to have rejected an alliance, not out loud like Jonathan Penner, but nevertheless rejected it. 

38 minutes ago, SVNBob said:

In other words, warning Christian made this TC a win-win for Davie.

He won't feel that way if he's sitting at FTC with Christian, that's for sure.

Just to be clear, I am not saying, when I say that Davie's not a threat, that he's not good at Survivor.  I'm saying the total opposite.  I think he's very good at Survivor.  Better than Christian, certainly when it comes to strategy and moves.  Christian's social game is incredible, but way too loud to be actually effective: it has made him a target the whole merge long.  This is in stark contrast to Davie, who has as far as I can remember never come up as a target at all, which is a sign of playing brilliantly.  Nevertheless if by some Ben-like chance Christian makes it to FTC there is no way he won't walk off with a unanimous win.  So don't protect him.  Get rid of him.  Let him be adored at Ponderosa.  I even think Davie has the best chance of anyone left in the game to make a compelling argument to get Christian's vote in the finals, even better than Nick.  So I feel like he's exactly what Nick said he was, for Davie -- someone you don't want to go up against, who will vote for you in the jury.

Edited December 7, 2018 by KimberStormer

[SVNBob]

26 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

He won't feel that way if he's sitting at FTC with Christian, that's for sure.

Agreed...no matter which side they could both be sitting on.

[ProfCrash]

1 hour ago, amazingracefan said:

Christian was the only one voting for Allison, looked like he was blindsided to me.  Sure they split the vote, but that's expected if someone has an idol, and they got him to play it as well.  I'd be surprised if he trusts anyone that much.

Christian was blindsided. I think part of his more subdued good-bye to Gabby was because she went home and not Alison.

Davie played it perfectly, he saved Christian, helping him with a potential jury vote and by giving him another  safe week since Christian remains a target, and he removed someone who stabbed him in the back in Gabby. In doing so, Davie punished Gabby and is able to say he didn't vote against a fellow David while Nick did.

It was a seriously beautiful move. Nick will come off as being petty to Gabby and Christian and Davie gets points with Christian for saving Christian. Gabby cannot complain that Davie voted for Christian, so Gabby is more likely to be upset with Nick then with Davie.

[Haleth]

6 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

In doing so, Davie punished Gabby and is able to say he didn't vote against a fellow David while Nick did.

Davie voted for Christian.

2 hours ago, IDreamofJoaquin said:

 Christian really had a great point about remembering what it is like to take someone for granted. 

Carl says something very similar in his Ponderosa video.

[ProfCrash]

5 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Davie voted for Christian.

I know.

Davie knew Nick and Mike were going to vote for Gabby. Davie was well aware that Gabby was going home. Davie voted for Christian knowing that Christian would play his idol. Christian was warned by Davie that Gabby was targeting Christian so he knew to play his idol. As such, Christian is not going to be upset that Davie wrote Christians name because Christian knows that Davie told him to play the idol. Davie needed to vote with the majority to maintain his place in the game. Christian gets that. Davie can easily say "I had no clue they were voting Gabby" and CHristian is likely to believe Davie.

It was a beautiful play.

[JudyObscure]

13 hours ago, princelina said:

I am one who doesn't get the Gabby beauty - I think she, Christian and Emily are all in the same league looks-wise - which is to say regular looking people with a nerdy bent.

I agree. I defended Emily's looks earlier because she seemed to be getting the backhanded,  "but she's nice"  descriptor which few young women crave.  It may just be that Christian with his large creative brain see's women through a lens more in keeping with the Impressionists than today's standard which seems to ignore every physical quality except the one that says, "Whichever female is thinnest wins the beauty contest." 

I'm glad we're allowed to talk about looks on this board because picking apart appearances is almost as much fun to me as picking apart strategy and is as "fair game" toward people who volunteer to go on reality TV as any other quality.  (Family visitors, a little less fair game.)

I think Gabby looks like the beautiful Natalie Wood in some of her photos, but she isn't perfect and her lower body is a little bit out of proportion to her upper.  I  like  her ears but maybe Christian doesn't.

Emily has a pretty smile and an over all sweet, fluffy look.  No wonder Christian says he loves coming home to her and her hot dinners.

When I first saw Kara I thought she looked like the mom on, "The Waltons," and didn't get what Dan was so thunderstruck over, but now that I see she has the most amazing hair ever and gets a tan so smooth she looks like she's been slathered in Max Factor's Golden Beige Flawless Foundation, I'm agog with admiration.

Nick started out cute in spite of (or because of?) looking like he was wearing lipstick all the time, but now that he's become all  tan and defined he's actually the hot young lawyer I want to handle my will and help me decide who gets my figurines.

Long tall Alison with her incredible legs is my husband's favorite type so I can't really see her for the green fog.

15 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

though if you think looks have nothing to do with how the jury thinks of you, let's go into business together, I have 10 million in a Nigerian bank account that I need to move overseas.) I mean that who is seen as an immunity threat is almost entirely based on body type.

So true.  We've seen the big young men voted out as threats following immunity runs by young women who were winning all  the endurance/puzzle challenges.  We've also seen pretty young women like Jenna M win the whole thing, just because.  I do think it can work in the reverse some times, with the "plain" women perceived as really smart whether they actually are or not. Looks are part of this game so we might as well talk about them.

[SuburbanHangSuite]

5 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Nick started out cute in spite of (or because of?) looking like he was wearing lipstick all the time, but now that he's become all  tan and defined he's actually the hot young lawyer I want to handle my will and help me decide who gets my figurines.

 

This?  Is awesome.  The bequeathing of Precious Moments is a serious matter.  LOL

[Bryce Lynch]

13 hours ago, lids said:

Christian’s immunity idol looked like the fakest idol that’s ever been a real idol on the show. What was that hanging off of it? Cat hair?

I understand why Davie told Christian about the vote and it made strategic sense to me. Davie just lost one of his closest allies in Carl. You could really see the difference in Davie’s bond with Carl on his last reward challenge verses the way he interacted on this reward challenge with this group- I.e. Davie doesn’t seem to bond with Mike at all. It also doesn’t seem like he trusts Angelina.

But Nick, who is also one of his closest allies, bonds with Mike, Angelina and Allison. When it comes time to vote someone out, Davie is more likely to be on the outside of that social circle than just about anyone else. But if he keeps Christian, people will be so focused on getting Christian out, the lesser social bonds never get tested. Plus Davie genuinely likes Christian and might be able to form a Christian final 4/5 where he feels like he has a stronger foothold. I was really impressed that Davie didn’t even go to Nick and reason that he wanted to tell Christian about the vote. This led me to understand that although Nick is Davie’s #2, Davie realizes that they have different final agendas.

Emily showing up on the island is just like when your work spouse’s real spouse comes to visit at work. It’s not jealousy or anything. It’s just that the social dynamic shifts all of a sudden and you try to act cool about it but you’re just thinking this situation just got real and it’s not fun or cute anymore.

I think keeping Christian around for another vote, while flushing his idol and eliminating his closest ally was probably the best case scenario for Davie.  

[jay741982]

20 hours ago, nottopbravo said:

Good thing Production gave that idol to Christian.  He would have been toast without it.  Of course he would play it.  Now that he did, this is the time to vote him out.

But noooooooo, he will win the whole thing, due to the stupid play of others.

Yeah let's ignore the idol given to Nick with lights all around it for him to find..

[jay741982]

20 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't think Christian fell out of Nick's Final 4 plans until after he betrayed the alliance by blindsiding Carl.

I always take any Final 4 talk during a reward with a huge grain of salt.  What else is everyone going to say when one of them says, "This should be our Final 4."?  "Nope, we are voting you out this TC and her at the next one."?   

Nick has been much more under the radar than Christian.  I think everyone pretty much assumes Christian will certainly win if he makes it to the Final 3.   Nick has subtly played a great game, as has Davie, but I don't think either of them are viewed as massive threats.  

If Christian wins, I think it will because he finds another idol or two (possibly planted conveniently by production).  I think everyone sees him as a near lock to win at FTC and try hard to prevent him from making it there.  

Nick said In a video before last weeks episode that Christian and Gabby weren't In his Final 4 plans. And like I already said it shows the stupidity that Nick isn't viewed as a massive threat to win. Kara will probably pay next week for daring to bring up his name since Mike seems stupid enough to think he can beat Nick as well. 

[peachmangosteen]

17 hours ago, amazingracefan said:

Despite all the talk at the reward I'm not convinced at this point that {Davie] is that tight with the others.  

Same. Davie doesn't now and really never has seemed that close to anyone (besides Carl) imo and that's part of why I don 't think he really has much of a chance to win. He's playing a good game, but he seems like he almost doesn't even want to have any true bonds with people or something. As @KimberStormer said, he is turning away alliances and that is just odd to me.

17 hours ago, JKL845 said:

I agree with Nick about the Carl move. Too soon, they needed to get out a couple more Goliaths first and he and Davie should not have been blindsided like that. Christian and Gabby actually did to Nick and Davie what Gabby was crying about Carl doing to her! 

Once Carl/Davie/Nick showed Gabby and Christian that they were at the bottom of the alliance any obligation Christian/Gabby had to them was over imo.

[Bryce Lynch]

28 minutes ago, jay741982 said:

Nick said In a video before last weeks episode that Christian and Gabby weren't In his Final 4 plans. And like I already said it shows the stupidity that Nick isn't viewed as a massive threat to win. Kara will probably pay next week for daring to bring up his name since Mike seems stupid enough to think he can beat Nick as well. 

I am not sure Mike can beat anyone, except for maybe Angelina.  He is an OK player, but I think he would fall victim to he doesn't need the money syndrome.

[peachmangosteen]

Vis a vis whether Mike or Nick suggested the Gabby vote, Dalton from EW thinks it was Mike:

Quote

And because Mike then came out with the deliciously dastardly plan to put votes on Gabby in case Christian played his idol, Gabby ended up going home.

I need to go back and rewatch. I feel like whoever said it wasn't really on camera at the time so we're just going by the voice. Both of them have pretty distinct voices though, so it should be easy to tell.

9 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I am not sure Mike can beat anyone, except for maybe Angelina.  He is an OK player, but I think he would fall victim to he doesn't need the money syndrome.

Oh yea, Mike is almost certainly a goat at this point. Less so about his money than the fact that he hasn't actually done anything though imo.

Edited December 7, 2018 by peachmangosteen

[ProfCrash]

26 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Same. Davie doesn't now and really never has seemed that close to anyone (besides Carl) imo and that's part of why I don 't think he really has much of a chance to win. He's playing a good game, but he seems like he almost doesn't even want to have any true bonds with people or something. As @KimberStormer said, he is turning away alliances and that is just odd to me.

Once Carl/Davie/Nick showed Gabby and Christian that they were at the bottom of the alliance any obligation Christian/Gabby had to them was over imo.

Christian and Nick are the two with strong Goliath ties. Davie was tight with Carl and Nick. We have seen limited conversations between Davie and Christian and we saw no conversations between Davie and Gabby. The only Goliath that Davie had to work with from his swap tribe was Kara and I don't think that he was working with her at all.

Davie has played a strong strategic game but he has not played a great social game. Christian has played a strong social game but not a great strategic game. Nick has played a good social and strategic game.

Christian is a target because he has strong bonds with a lot of folks on the jury and he can point to winning an individual immunity and playing an idol. But Christian was effectively kept in the game by Nick and Davie. And Christian knows that, which means that he is going to have to fall back on Jessica and Carl as his bigger strategic plays, except Davie or Nick can point to how the Carl play backfired on Christian.

Nick is the one who had four people, we only saw one person but Alec's interview confirmed that four people shared the same info, tell him that Christian was going. That shows how strongly tied Nick was to different people. Then Nick used that information to save Christian. Nick's moves are all tied to working with someone else. Nick relied on Davie playing an idol to save Christian. Nick worked with Davie and Carl to find the vote steal advantage. Nick worked with Davie to find the hidden idol. Nick worked with Mike and Davie to vote out Gabby.

Davie can point to his strategic game and what he did to lead the Davids. He can point to his being the point person on most decision. Davie saved Christian with his idol and sent John home by telling Nick and Christian to vote for John. Davie helped Nick find an advantage and and idol by distracting the Goliaths. Davie helped Nick and Carl figure out when and how to play their advantages. Davie helped Christian save himself and flush Christian's idol while getting Christian's number one ally voted out. But none of the Goliaths are bringing Davie information and the Goliaths have not noticed that Davie is the mastermind in the David tribe. So Davie would have to sell what he did to the jury at final tribal and hope to god that Carl and the other Davids, are singing Davies praises at Ponderosa.

[ljenkins782]

2 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Quote

It was a seriously beautiful move. Nick will come off as being petty to Gabby and Christian and Davie gets points with Christian for saving Christian. Gabby cannot complain that Davie voted for Christian, so Gabby is more likely to be upset with Nick then with Davie.

Davie knew Nick and Mike were going to vote for Gabby. Davie was well aware that Gabby was going home. Davie voted for Christian knowing that Christian would play his idol. Christian was warned by Davie that Gabby was targeting Christian so he knew to play his idol. As such, Christian is not going to be upset that Davie wrote Christians name because Christian knows that Davie told him to play the idol. Davie needed to vote with the majority to maintain his place in the game. Christian gets that. Davie can easily say "I had no clue they were voting Gabby" and CHristian is likely to believe Davie.

It was a beautiful play.

Nick didn't vote for Gabby, he voted for Christian. It was Mike and Angelina who voted for Gabby.

Quote

Yeah let's ignore the idol given to Nick with lights all around it for him to find..

Not really the same thing, Nick had to find a hidden clue in order to get the lit up idol. It's the same as finding a hidden idol in the woods, except there was an extra step in the process of getting the actual idol. (Not that I think Christian's idol was producer-given either. Now if he happens to trip over an idol NEXT week when he's really in hot water, then I might wonder. Kidding.)

Quote

This is part of the thing, I wish I knew who Davie did want to go with, if not that F4.  He would crush Angelina and Mike.  Nick is the only one he has to worry about there, and he could presumably recruit Gabby or whatever spare Goliath is left to vote out Nick at 5 if he wants.  I mean, another thing about Jeremy and his meat shield strategy: he voted out Joe at F8 (and tried to even earlier, at F9!)  The only person with a prayer of beating him after that was Kelley Wentworth -- but he had an alliance to see him through.  Davie seems to have rejected an alliance, not out loud like Jonathan Penner, but nevertheless rejected it. 

The fact that he didn't reject it out loud is significant though. It leaves the option open for later, unless Penner's inexplicable bridge-burning choice to turn down an alliance for...reasons (still can't understand what the hell that was about). He can see which way the wind is blowing after this vote-out, see who wins next immunity, etc and then make a plan from there.

And I also don't blame him for being gung-ho about this alliance, as someone stated upthread, we have never seen any interaction between Angelina/Mike and Davie and the combination of people on the boat was mostly up to chance due to Angelina and Nick being randomly paired together for the challenge. It's kinda like being at a party with one friend and a bunch of their other friends when they start planning a road trip or something, they'll include you because you're standing there but you know you're not getting an invite when it actually happens. 

[ProfCrash]

5 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

Nick didn't vote for Gabby, he voted for Christian. It was Mike and Angelina who voted for Gabby.

OK, so I totally missed that in about all the posts and the show and I am kind of embarrassed.

[Bryce Lynch]

53 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Oh yea, Mike is almost certainly a goat at this point. Less so about his money than the fact that he hasn't actually done anything though imo.

I'd say it is a bit of both.  I don't think he has done much less than people like Alison, Kara and Angelina, and I think he probably has better relationships than them.  He would never beat Nick, Davie or Christian, regardless of his wealth.  But, against Kara, Alison or Angelina it might be the deciding factor   

[Jersey Guy 87]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I am not sure Mike can beat anyone, except for maybe Angelina.  He is an OK player, but I think he would fall victim to he doesn't need the money syndrome.

That's one of the worst reasons to vote for/against someone, IMO.  The Survivor vote should be about how you play Survivor, not whether you need the money.

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, Jersey Guy 87 said:

That's one of the worst reasons to vote for/against someone, IMO.  The Survivor vote should be about how you play Survivor, not whether you need the money.

I don't think it is a good criteria for voting, but I think it is a common one.  

Also, I don't think it would be the only or even the main reason Mike won't win.  He has played only a so-so game.  If he was dominating the beach, winning challenges, playing a great social and strategic game, etc. he might still win.  But, I think a wealthy celebrity has a higher bar than ordinary people.  

Edited December 7, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[Ms Blue Jay]

I don't necessarily agree that Christian for sure wins if he makes it to the end.  And it's funny to me how the opinion is both looks are incredibly important in Final Tribal Council and also Christian will win if he makes it to the end.  LOL.  Sure, looks could weigh maybe the tiniest of factors in FTC but if looks was the reason why people won in Survivor I think Woo would have beat Tony, just as an example.  Another example: Parvati would have beat Sandra.  Should I find more?  Ken McNickle, one of the most beautiful Survivors I've ever seen in my life, would have beat Adam.  And if looks were so important in helping people win in FTC then why would Jeremy downplay his the entire game.  I don't agree with the logic.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

Vis a vis whether Mike or Nick suggested the Gabby vote, Dalton from EW thinks it was Mike:

I need to go back and rewatch. I feel like whoever said it wasn't really on camera at the time so we're just going by the voice. Both of them have pretty distinct voices though, so it should be easy to tell.

It was certainly Mike as far as I know... it was his voice.  Moreover, Nick seemed fine voting for Christian.  I guess they didn't consider the possibility that Davie would spill the beans.  What I'm wondering is why Davie didn't vote along with Christian to vote Alison out.  I know that he wanted to make it look like he was with the others but I guess he didn't consider that Mike and Angelina were going to have a backup plan in case Christian had an idol. 

Seems like he just assumed that Christian's lone vote for Alison was going to send her home.  Had Davie talked to Christian and voted for Alison, it would have been a 2-2 tie.  On revote there would have been Nick, Christian, Davie, Mike, Angelina, and Kara voting between Alison and Gabby.  I think Nick would have been the swing vote and it would have been interesting to see what happened.  

45 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

Not really the same thing, Nick had to find a hidden clue in order to get the lit up idol. It's the same as finding a hidden idol in the woods, except there was an extra step in the process of getting the actual idol. (Not that I think Christian's idol was producer-given either. Now if he happens to trip over an idol NEXT week when he's really in hot water, then I might wonder. Kidding.)

Would not be at all surprised if Christian finds another idol next week.  He's clearly the producer's Darling Boy for this season... much like the season when Ben the Marine who was constantly in trouble would find an idol every time he took a leak in the woods.  Not to mention TPTB inventing new rules for him to get into the finals with that BS "supposedly planned in advance" firemaking challenge.  Yes, I know, blah blah blah Quiz Show scandal, FCC, etc but it'd be hard for anyone to prove the allegations... they could simply just say they were always contemplating sudden changes in the game, just like Julie Chen Moonves and her "Expect the Unexpected" mantra on BB.  I'm still a little bitter over the blatant favouritism shown by the producers for Ben the Marine.

[Jextella]

The word "goat" is often used too liberally, IMO - especially in this game where conversations are everything and we're not shown all of them.  

Mike is a good example.  I don't think he's a goat.  He had a strategy, he stuck to it, and it worked for him, i.e. he played the middle. 

Davey is tougher.  His edit doesn't show him doing much or bonding with too many people other than Carl and perhaps Nick.  But he was involved in the Dan/John blindsides and in fact, the decision to use his idol on Christian was his own based on one of Nick's interviews.  He's made decisions that benefited "the team", i.e. the Davids.  That doesn't mean he hasn't played the game.  It's just harder to isolate one team player as better than the others when they work together.  He also says one of his strategies is to shield himself. That is a strategy - no better or worse than working the middle.  

Kara is perhaps another challenging player to assess.  Alec said she played a beautiful social game.  She made it so she was part of all the important conversations.  That served her well.

The other thing to note is that circumstances drive much of peoples' gameplay.  For example, the Goliaths bonded really well and worked hard at sticking together. Someone like Kara never had to make big moves - not for a long time anyway.

With a few exceptions, David's were shown to make moves because they had to make them.  Goliaths were not shown to make as many moves because they didn't have to make them, but it doesn't mean they weren't playing.

For me, a goat is someone who doesn't have his/her own strategy and just follows along with the strategy/game of someone else.   I don't see that happening with any of the players this season.  Each came to play, which is what they've done.  They just had to play to their circumstances.   Whoever makes F3 will deserve to be there this season, IMO.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Jextella

[Jextella]

11 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I don't necessarily agree that Christian for sure wins if he makes it to the end. 

 

Agreed.  Carl is filling in the jury and it must come to light Nick's and Davie's roles.  The body language and facial expressions of the jury seemed (to me anyway) that the Brochachos and Elizabeth are learning new things.   The David's carried Christian twice - taking down both Dan and John in the process.

6 minutes ago, blackwing said:

It was certainly Mike as far as I know... it was his voice. 

 

I rewatched for the 3rd or 4th time.  It was definately Nick. Not Mike.

[Special K]

Clay was the original goat, if I remember correctly.  So disliked, that Brian Heidick kept bringing him along and protecting him, knowing no one would vote for Clay at FTC.  For me "goat" is something someone else decides about you and exploits -- it's almost like being conned. (Perhaps I'm watching too much Dirty John :)