S37.E10: Tribal Lines are Blurred

[Special K]

10 minutes ago, LadyChatts said:

And I thought I couldn't love him anymore.

I loved how he said his father told him to do three things on Survivor:  find an idol, [can't remember the second], and make Jeff laugh.

[Nashville]

7 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

It is so clear that indulgint in alcohol can be considered to be a "game killer". IOW ... indulging in even a small amount of alcohol on the island can cause you to behave like a drunk because you may do that on an empty stomach or you may do that after 10 or 20 days and who knows how you will react to a few drinks after having no alcohol for 10 or 20 days. You best make sure you know how your body will react. But - in general - the smart thing to do would be to avoid all alcohol completely while on the island. Drinking any amount whatsoever could easily cost you the million dollars. Is it worth it?

I laugh like hell whenever someone starts overdoing it on the reward hootch; in an environment where dehydration is already an ever-present concern, it’s handy to have the morons self-identify so readily.  :>

I was kinda disappointed we didn’t hear any of Mike’s letter from home.  It appeared to have been written by his father, for both parents - and from the glimpse I got of it, Dad has a great sense of humor.  It mainly consisted of several apologies to Mike from his parents for giving him such excessively pale skin, for having him 20 years too early (because he’s so much older than his competition), etc.  :)

[cujo]

16 hours ago, sadiegirl1999 said:

Was Nick wearing Dan’s jacket at the beginning of the episode? 

#jacketgate

I've read through mostly 3 of the 4 pages and haven't seen this answered correct yet. It was John's jacket, the same one Davie had on start of last week's episode. Nick and John had a wrestling tag team alliance so I'm assuming he's inherited the jacket after Davie had his fun with it... or it's probably the jacket big enough to fit everyone so they're all sharing.

[Rough Draft]

6 minutes ago, Special K said:

I loved how he said his father told him to do three things on Survivor:  find an idol, [can't remember the second], and make Jeff laugh.

I think the other one was "win a reward".

Edited November 29, 2018 by Rough Draft
grammar

[Special K]

1 minute ago, Rough Draft said:

I think the other one was "win a reward".

That's right!  Thanks for reminding me.  So great.  I love that they weren't the usual, "make the merge, make the jury, get to final tribal council."

[ProfCrash]

Christian’s move was a good one for him. Carl, Nick and Davie had decided on Alec and then Alison and simply told Christian how to vote. Carl even told Christian to tell Gabby that they were voting for Angelina. 

Carl, Davie, and Nick did not engage Christian in a conversation about who should be voted out and explained they were worried about Gabby because she was friends with Alison. But Carl, Davie and Nick decided who was going home and told Christian. 

Christian was not included in the conversation. He was not a part of the decision making. Christian knew that Carl, Davie and Nick were willing to lie to Gabby about who was going home. So why should Christian believe that he is in a good place with them? Why should Christian believe what they are telling him when they falt out told Christian to lie to an alliance member? 

Why should Gabby or Christian feel good about the David alliance when the other Davids told Kara and Angelina about the Alec vote before talking to Gabby?

No, Nick, Carl and Davie did not say “Christian and Gabby are at the bottom of our alliance.” or “Angelina replaced Gabby in our alliance.” But Nick, Carl, and Davie sure as hell acted like Christian and Gabby were at the bottom of the alliance and as if Angelina had replaced Gabby.

Everyone out there knows Gabby. Why would Carl, Nick or Davie think it was a good idea to not talk to gabby about a plan that she was suppose to be a part of because they were in an alliance? Gabby is someone that you don’t want to do anything that might make her anxious because anxious Gabby is paranoid Gabby and upset Gabby. Yet the three of them seemed to go out of their way to ignore Gabby. It was crazy. 

In one of his exit interviews Carl flat out said that he was targeting Gabby after Alison and that he knew he would be a target but that he thought that would be after this vote. Christian and Gabby took out someone who clearly did not see them as a part of their alliance and was using them as votes. 

Maybe Nick and Davie should have checked Carl a bit more and made sure to include Christian and Gabby instead of bossing them around. But that didn’t happy. I don’t think it was an awful move. 

[Melina22]

Alison may look like Ann Coulter, but I really like her. I bet she's a really good doctor. Tough but sympathetic. I do wish they'd give her a proper bathing suit...forcing her, or any of them, to compete in underwear always grates on me, but that's a whole other topic. 

Echoing what piewarmer said, I can't judge any of them too harshly since they're scorching, freezing, starving, sleep deprived and covered in itchy bug bites and bruises. I'd be begging to be medivacced on Day 2. Kudos to all of them for hanging in there. 

[meep.meep]

9 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

I don't know when I laughed at Survivor as much as I laughed last night with Christian's story-time.  I don't even care if the reaction shots were mixed up by the editors to make people, especially Alec, look like it was driving them crazier than it was.  The only thing I can't figure out is how Christian talked for that long without getting more dehydrated than they already were!  Still the whole thing was just really funny.

I loved his monologue.  And when the challenge was over and he got down, it was like he wasn't even in pain.  Alec was acting like he was in agony, but Christian was just strolling around.

7 hours ago, nutty1 said:

It never even crossed my mind that is could be thought of as a slur. I have heard that so much over the years and it was never used in a degrading way.

Never use the word around your black friends or you may get a different reaction.  Kind of like how they had to retitle the British TV show Spooks when they showed it in the US.  Spade is just as offensive.

[tiredofwork]

Quote

The public hanging comment had no genuine racial connotation.  She was joking that she liked the guy so much that she would do UNPLEASANT things like "fight a circle saw" or "attend a public hanging" if he asked her to.   Also, "public hanging" is not a synonym for "lynching".  A public hanging was typically the execution of a convicted criminal or criminals, most of whom were white.    People tried to twist it into a racial comment for political reasons.   

We will disagree forever on that..  Our perspectives are going to be different, So you are dismissing all of the outraged  Af/Americans who were outraged.   Which of course is your right to do. 

[Nashville]

7 hours ago, nutty1 said:

It never even crossed my mind that is could be thought of as a slur. I have heard that so much over the years and it was never used in a degrading way.

Trust someone who lived through the ‘60s and ‘70s; oh HELL yeah.  :>

But, that being said: Kara’s use of the word “spade” was clearly, unequivocally within the context of a common colloquial expression (“calling a spade a spade”) and was in no way being applied as a form of either individual or collective address.  So claiming Kara’s use of the word was racist is, simply put, ridiculous - unless one considers every Hoyle playing card deck in the world racist as well.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Nashville
Expansion

[SuburbanHangSuite]

13 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Carl, Davie, and Nick did not engage Christian in a conversation about who should be voted out and explained they were worried about Gabby because she was friends with Alison. But Carl, Davie and Nick decided who was going home and told Christian. 

Christian was not included in the conversation. He was not a part of the decision making. Christian knew that Carl, Davie and Nick were willing to lie to Gabby about who was going home. So why should Christian believe that he is in a good place with them? Why should Christian believe what they are telling him when they falt out told Christian to lie to an alliance member? 

<snip>

Maybe Nick and Davie should have checked Carl a bit more and made sure to include Christian and Gabby instead of bossing them around. But that didn’t happy. I don’t think it was an awful move. 

 

So I can see where you're coming from except I really believe that Nick, Davie & Carl fully intended to stay loyal to the David alliance and it just so happened that the 3 of them were gathered to strategize and they wrongly assumed that Christan would be on board with whatever the alliance decided.  And they recognized that Christian seems to be the Gabby Whisperer who can keep her calm (relatively).  I don't think it was intended as disrespect or arrogance.  They just misjudged the loyalty to tribal lines.  The decision to deceive Gabby was based on feeling that she was becoming too chummy with Alison.  And they were correct.

Really, why would Christian believe he was in a good place with the Goliaths?  He was their main target for two votes until the awesome David Advantage play.  He's been playing a helluva game so I'm on pins and needles waiting to see how this move plays out for him.

[violet and green]

55 minutes ago, cujo said:

I've read through mostly 3 of the 4 pages and haven't seen this answered correct yet. It was John's jacket, the same one Davie had on start of last week's episode. Nick and John had a wrestling tag team alliance so I'm assuming he's inherited the jacket after Davie had his fun with it... or it's probably the jacket big enough to fit everyone so they're all sharing.

I thought John's jacket was denim with patches and stuff on it. This was some crazy ass big black vinyl jacket.

[green]

12 minutes ago, SuburbanHangSuite said:

So I can see where you're coming from except I really believe that Nick, Davie & Carl fully intended to stay loyal to the David alliance and it just so happened that the 3 of them were gathered to strategize and they wrongly assumed that Christan would be on board with whatever the alliance decided.  And they recognized that Christian seems to be the Gabby Whisperer who can keep her calm (relatively).  I don't think it was intended as disrespect or arrogance.  They just misjudged the loyalty to tribal lines.  The decision to deceive Gabby was based on feeling that she was becoming too chummy with Alison.  And they were correct.

Really, why would Christian believe he was in a good place with the Goliaths?  He was their main target for two votes until the awesome David Advantage play.  He's been playing a helluva game so I'm on pins and needles waiting to see how this move plays out for him.

Also add in the fact that Davey played his own idol to save Christian then next tribal Carl and Nick both played their advantages to save Christian.  Those three did everything to save the David tribe in the form of Christian.  Christian made a very very bad choice to go with Gabby.  Kara was right to dump Dan.  She is nicely buried under the radar right now.  Christian needs to put some major distance away from Gabby asap though it may be too late by now.  She is the albatross around his neck at this point.

 

17 minutes ago, Nashville said:

But, that being said: Kara’s use of the word “spade” was clearly, unequivocally within the context of a common colloquial expression (“calling a spade a spade”) and was in no way being applied as a form of either individual or collective address.  So claiming Kara’s use of the word was racist is, simply put, ridiculous - unless one considers every Hoyle playing card deck in the world racist as well.

Well only a quarter of the Hoyle deck technically hah but I agree with you totally.  I'm getting tired of the entire English language becoming banned because some assholes turn this or that word into a racist or sexist or whateverist term.  Don't let those jerks or Russian bots or whoever take away our language one word at a time.  Fight back and make these words positives again.

And again, context.  A spade is either a shovel or a playing card.  Period.  Using it as a racist slur is easy to spot because of CONTEXT ... and because the person saying it is obviously a jerk.  Otherwise it is a perfectly fine word.  And "calling a spade a spade" is a perfectly harmless and decent term.  I refuse to give it up ever because then the ignorant racist bigots win another one.

[Clare]

I really like Christian but I hate it when they shove a character down our throats. He's a great character but it's a little too much for me.

I don't really like Carl and I'm not sorry to see him go but I think that was a good move for Gabby and a bad move Christian. I don't think Christian should have gone against Nick and Davie.  All those other people wrote his name down and see him as a big threat.  

We've seen that Nick has a bit of vengeful streak.  I really think that Christian crossing Nick is going to be his way out of the game.

[violet and green]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yes, as I have said, I think his best move would have been to tell Gabby to stay calm, go along with the "plan", get the Davids a 5-3 edge and then take out Carl next TC.   

Yes, as you said, and as I said in my own words and way - but instead he surfed his way to stupid on the waves of Gabby's wild emotions. He had other options, and much better ones, than to make an emotive decision that will most likely cost him his game.

Edited November 29, 2018 by violet and green
typo

[RedbirdNelly]

on the challenge with the rope walk piece (where Allison was horrible), I kept waiting for someone to just nail it and then we'd get to see the confessional afterwards where they say "I knew I could handle that challenge thanks to all the team-building retreats I got stuck going to for work over the years!" It was the one challenge where I thought people (with non-active jobs) might have actually had similar experiences in normal life (and not counting "I'm training for Survivor").

[TallulahBelle]

20 hours ago, Eolivet said:

(anybody else who watches Australian Survivor ... a big plate of nachos!!! Hope Benji watched this one tonight)

Benji RUINED nachos for the entire continent of Australia, they're banned here now.

[Eolivet]

6 minutes ago, TallulahBelle said:

Benji RUINED nachos for the entire continent of Australia, they're banned here now.

Hee! Between the nachos, liberal use of "the Godfather," and the nighttime idol search, I was having many Benji and Australian Survivor flashbacks. Is Gabby the one smoking Carl's cigars and putting her feet up in his office now?

(this does relate to this season in a strange way -- as Angelina may know of Benji, since she knows his sister, Anneliese. Survivor: worlds colliding!)

[cujo]

1 hour ago, violet and green said:

I thought John's jacket was denim with patches and stuff on it. This was some crazy ass big black vinyl jacket.

Big leather jacket with zippers... he's a "heel" after all and had to look the part.

[Rockfish]

12 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

Oh yes, I forgot to add: shut up, Dan.  Only Courtney gets to talk in the jury box, and that is because she's the fourth-wall breaking character that knows she's on a TV show, and doesn't give a shit about the game.

I love this comment so much! I mentioned to my husband last night that this Ponderosa is probably the most fun one ever, except for the one with Coach and Courtney and their awesome band (whose name I’ve forgotten). 

I’m still catching up on comments, but I have to say the best thing ever was watching Angelina’s mad negotiating skillz, lol—didn’t know Harvard’s methodology entails offering basically everything up immediately (oops, I guess it’s Yale’s Theorem...sorry, Harvard!).

All in all, I’ve been loving this season, and I almost chose to not watch because of how bad the last few have been. The level of gameplay’s better, the conversation amongst the castaways is more intelligent and fun, and the editing is much improved. Another thing I love watching is Jeff’s confused face after a completely understandable remark from Christian (and if that’s an editing trick, bravo to the editors!).

Edited November 30, 2018 by Rockfish

[Ms Blue Jay]

Guys, I love nachos soooooooooooo much.  I love nachos like Carl likes beer.  There'd be no way for me to resist.

[mythoughtis]

2 hours ago, meep.meep said:

I loved his monologue.  And when the challenge was over and he got down, it was like he wasn't even in pain.  Alec was acting like he was in agony, but Christian was just strolling around.

Never use the word around your black friends or you may get a different reaction.  Kind of like how they had to retitle the British TV show Spooks when they showed it in the US.  Spade is just as offensive.

There’s the actual discussion to be had: being white and a child in the sixties in a northern state in a rural area, I just didn’t and don’t  think about common phrases being racist until someone educates me.   I never heard the term spade used as a racial term, I was an adult before I knew what cracker meant in terms of race.  I never knew that ‘pot calling the kettle black’ was racial for years... until I thought about why a pot being black was supposedly so bad. 

Once educated by people who know the terms are insults, then I see the problem and try not to use the terms at all. As you say it’s a matter of perspective. As a female, I know certain things are sexist whereas men sometimes are clueless because they’ve just never thought about whatever the word or action is. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by mythoughtis

[lids]

Well, this episode was enlightening. We got confirmation that Gabby is Christian’s #1, which I kind of suspected, but at least now we know he’s dragging her to the end. He also acknowledged that he spends a lot of time “managing” her, which helps me to understand that he sees her more as a goat than a love interest. I wonder if Christian had this plan all along: to attach with a weaker, less liked partner who he can trust, but beat. Let’s face it, he trusts Nick, but he can’t take Nick to the end because Nick might beat him. He’s very calculated and I feel like he’s thinking all the time and covering it up with theatrics.

I also noticed that when Christian read his letter from his Dad, he used his real voice, which was actually quite normal and not the nerd voice he uses to tell stories. When he said that he and his Dad talked about making Jeff laugh, I kind of invisioned Christian at home working on his Woody Allen impression and that’s how we got the character that he presents for the show. I can’t tell if I like it or not that he’s so manufactured. Part of me thinks the fact that he’s conniving is the most interesting thing about him. The smile he gave before he started playing mind games with Alec at the immunity challenge was amazing. And then, did he start fake crying when Alec appealed to him for sympathy so that he could turn the sympathy back on himself? I saw nary a tear and then he automatically stopped when Alec walked off.

It would be nice if Nick’s idol meets Christian’s idol in an epic showdown. That’s how they should cap the season.

[MrsR]

I think Christian's nerd voice is more like Harry Shearer and any number of his Simpsons characters.

[MisterBluxom]

4 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Christian’s move was a good one for him. Carl, Nick and Davie had decided on Alec and then Alison and simply told Christian how to vote. Carl even told Christian to tell Gabby that they were voting for Angelina. 

Carl, Davie, and Nick did not engage Christian in a conversation about who should be voted out and explained they were worried about Gabby because she was friends with Alison. But Carl, Davie and Nick decided who was going home and told Christian. 

Christian was not included in the conversation. He was not a part of the decision making. Christian knew that Carl, Davie and Nick were willing to lie to Gabby about who was going home. So why should Christian believe that he is in a good place with them? Why should Christian believe what they are telling him when they falt out told Christian to lie to an alliance member? 

Why should Gabby or Christian feel good about the David alliance when the other Davids told Kara and Angelina about the Alec vote before talking to Gabby?

No, Nick, Carl and Davie did not say “Christian and Gabby are at the bottom of our alliance.” or “Angelina replaced Gabby in our alliance.” But Nick, Carl, and Davie sure as hell acted like Christian and Gabby were at the bottom of the alliance and as if Angelina had replaced Gabby.

Everyone out there knows Gabby. Why would Carl, Nick or Davie think it was a good idea to not talk to gabby about a plan that she was suppose to be a part of because they were in an alliance? Gabby is someone that you don’t want to do anything that might make her anxious because anxious Gabby is paranoid Gabby and upset Gabby. Yet the three of them seemed to go out of their way to ignore Gabby. It was crazy. 

In one of his exit interviews Carl flat out said that he was targeting Gabby after Alison and that he knew he would be a target but that he thought that would be after this vote. Christian and Gabby took out someone who clearly did not see them as a part of their alliance and was using them as votes. 

Maybe Nick and Davie should have checked Carl a bit more and made sure to include Christian and Gabby instead of bossing them around. But that didn’t happy. I don’t think it was an awful move. 

One of the best posts I ever read on this board. You put yourself into Christian's mind as if ... as if .... Christian? Is that you?

[MisterBluxom]

13 hours ago, cleo said:

Mike's comments- 'Carl and Davey will never mount an insurrection'

And last night in regards to Carl- 'there is something menacing about it'

Seemed sketchier to me than Kara's comment.

It was just that simple.  Did you grow as tired as I did of having heard Carl repeat that? I'm sure there is some deep psychological reason why Carl seemed to cling to that phrase like a drowning man clings to a life raft.

Edited November 30, 2018 by MisterBluxom

[MisterBluxom]

9 hours ago, Jextella said:

<snip>Not having seen the episode yet, just based on the posts here, it seems there was no need for a "bing" when Carl said it and no need for Gabby and Alison to say it again.  Carl said it out of relief and enthusiasm for having beat enormous odds to get renewed life in the game. It was still gloating which is never pretty.  Gabby and Alison brought themselves down to a tit-for-tat childish, school-yard level.  The latter crime is slightly more egregious than the former, IMO.  <snip>

I give you much credit for your stance. Seems to me most people chose one side or the other. But you recognize both as being gloating and offensive. IMHO that's much better. Well done.

[green]

5 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

There’s the actual discussion to be had: being white and a child in the sixties in a northern state in a rural area, I just didn’t and don’t  think about common phrases being racist until someone educates me.   I never heard the term spade used as a racial term, I was an adult before I knew what cracker meant in terms of race.  I never knew that ‘pot calling the kettle black’ was racial for years... until I thought about why a pot being black was supposedly so bad. 

Once educated by people who know the terms are insults, then I see the problem and try not to use the terms at all. As you say it’s a matter of perspective. As a female, I know certain things are sexist whereas men sometimes are clueless because they’ve just never thought about whatever the word or action is. 

 

OT:  Pot and kettle is an old old expression back from the days when the large, round cooking pot hung over the open fire in the log cabin fire place.  It therefore got a LOT of soot on it's bottom just like the kettle did there.  It isn't racial in the least.  Getting soot on the pot or kettle meant it got dirty in the fire and needed to be cleaned.  Soot is considered bad and soot just happens to be black.  The pot calling the kettle black meant the pot (the person being referred to) is basically a hypocrite because they are just as bad as the person they are condemning for something.    To use another expression, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  Jeez, have we lost all reason and logic in this country?

The fact is Afro-Americans are no more black as they are all shades of brown.  Just like whites are no more white than pinkish or light tan shades.  But somehow black and white have come into use as racial descriptions for no good reason and the result is totally insane when it comes to common sense expressions suddenly being turned into accusations of racial overtones.  They simply aren't.

If someone tries to use one as a slur you can again tell by CONTEXT and the fact that someone is obviously being a jerk.  Otherwise the expression is fine and dandy.

Please don't keep overreacting to these bigots and fools.  They get off on your overreacting.  They then play the "See, all these people are just being political correct" card.  Don't give them what they want.  And don't let them steal our language away from us.  Please, let us become of country of common sense and kindness again instead of everyone jumping in seconds on anything thinking we have to ban this and that because some idiot is trying to mess with our minds.

Edited November 30, 2018 by green

[MisterBluxom]

I sure do wish I knew how to embed a video into a post here.  There is a scene from a wonderful film about Muhammad Ali called "I am Ali" (2014).  He is seen several times in that film talking about racial intolerance.  He spoke of several examples in our culture how the word "black" has become associated with bad things and the word "white" with good things.

In one example, shortly after the 32:15 minute mark, Ali is shown at some event that may be a press conference. He spoke about how black people are brainwashed in our culture to believe that "white" means good and "black" means bad.  He spoke of several things commonly shown on TV and elsewhere  -  Nursery rhymes like  "Mary had a little lamb whose fleece was white as snow"  -  products with the word "white" in their name  -  White Owl Cigars,  some brand of floor wax,  tooth paste,  hand soap, other soaps. The White House, etc.  Most of the people present seemed to be laughing - some of them were laughing almost hysterically. You might like to take a look and see for yourself.

He spoke of one TV commercial showing two identical cars - except that one is painted white and the other one is black.  This commercial was selling a brand of gasoline. It shows how they put one gallon of gas into each car and had them both travel up a hill to see which would go further. The implication was the car that traveled further would contain the gasoline that gave more mileage.  It was a great scene because it showed this man - a heavyweight boxer - who was able to out-think and out-argue most any intellectual of the day. If you've never seen this film, it is truly beautiful for more reasons than I can specify here.

If you're not a fan of boxing, don't worry. Most everyone who sees this film can easily see how beautiful it is.  As long as you believe in "the potential for the goodness in the human heart",  I'm guessing you will enjoy it as much as I did.

Edited November 30, 2018 by MisterBluxom

[Fake Jan Brady]

5 hours ago, Rockfish said:

I mentioned to my husband last night that this Ponderosa is probably the most fun one ever, except for the one with Coach and Courtney and their awesome band (whose name I’ve forgotten). 

The Dragonz!

[30 Helens]

18 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

society needs to get over its perception of what tears mean. They are no different then venting, screaming, hitting something, or generally releasing emotion. Tears are perfectly fine and acceptable.

<snip>

The stereotype is unfair because crying should not be seen in such a negative light. Crying is a healthy release of emotion that makes people uncomfortable because it might require that they be human and comfort someone oone.

I agree that crying is a healthy release of emotion.  I don’t think that crying is a sign of weakness. I think total lack of emotional control is a sign of weakness. Whether a person is constantly crying, constantly screaming or hitting something, it’s not ok. I know this is an usually stressful situation, but it’s stressful for everyone, not just Gabby, and the rest of them manage to keep their shit together. I had sympathy for her at first, but at this point it’s. Just. Too. Much.

 

17 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The more I think about it, the more I think Christian and Gabby's move was a foolish one, based upon emotions, but sold as an "analytical" move.

Sure, Carl was annoying and he shouldn't have been sharing the vote info with non-alliance members and withholding it from Gabby.  The "Godfather" needed to be whacked, but they did it a week too soon.

I don’t disagree, based on what we saw, but there is so much we are not privy to. For example, I don’t recall any evidence of Carl being so bossy and controlling before this week. I’m just glad I don’t have to hear them saying “The Godfather” anymore.

 

16 hours ago, ByaNose said:

 Usually, I hate when one person dominates the challenges but Alec was fun and gave 100%. Hopefully, he'll be asked back. 

Hmmm. Don’t think that’s gonna happen.

 

11 hours ago, tiredofwork said:

While the "spade" comment might have been nebulous at one time, please believe me that I am aware it is used in an offensive manner and for her to look at a Black man. while saying it.. Damn..

I hear you.  I had the same reaction.  The only way I would give her a pass is if she really didn’t know that spade is used as a racist term.  Because no matter how benign the origin of a phrase like “call a spade a spade” may be, once you recognize that using that term in any context may be hurtful to someone, you just shouldn’t. It may not make you a racist, but at minimum it makes you a jerk.

10 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Also, "public hanging" is not a synonym for "lynching".  A public hanging was typically the execution of a convicted criminal or criminals, most of whom were white.    People tried to twist it into a racial comment for political reasons.   

That was coding, pure and simple.

[KimberStormer]

So I cringed when Kara said that at tribal, personally.  I don't think she probably meant anything by it, but what gets me is that it was put in the edit -- somewhat awkwardly, I felt, because suddenly Kara was talking when it had been someone else before.  It's totally justifiable for an individual person not to know the racist term, but it's not at all for a whole editing team to not catch it.  They could easily have cut it out, knowing it would upset people.  So I wonder if it was put in deliberately as a negative thing for Kara.

In general her edit was very strange this week.  She got a lot of screen time talking about how foolish for them to tell her their plans.  And a very weird shot of drunk Carl sitting close to her on the boat, as though they were suggesting there was flirting going on, but in actual fact there didn't seem to be any at all.  I don't know, it was all strange to me.

[green]

On 11/30/2018 at 1:18 AM, 30 Helens said:

I hear you.  I had the same reaction.  The only way I would give her a pass is if she really didn’t know that spade is used as a racist term.  Because no matter how benign the origin of a phrase like “call a spade a spade” may be, once you recognize that using that term in any context may be hurtful to someone, you just shouldn’t. It may not make you a racist, but at minimum it makes you a jerk.

I don't think I'm a jerk.  I think I believe you have to get over banning half the English language because every day someone is misinterpreting perfectly fine expressions to mean something totally different than what they do mean because they take a knee jerk reaction to it immediately instead of seeing it in context.  We need to think logically for ourselves instead of consulting the latest internet list of proscribed "banned in Boston" words immediately and conforming to same. 

I will NOT allow racists to turn perfectly fine words and expressions in my language into something racist.  If I do that then they win because they will keep inventing new terms of hatred faster than we can ban the latest "so called" offensive words.  Also I hate the concept of banning and being dictated to.

There is always someone who will feel offended if you say hello to them.  Again, saying "calling a spade is a spade" is fine.  Calling an Afro-American person "a spade" is not.  Can we just please have some common sense in these matters.

Edited December 1, 2018 by green

[himela]

11 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I agree that it was a stupid move.  But in Christian's defense, at least it wasn't an unforced error.  So often players make proactively dumb moves that blow up their games.  In this case, Christian was put in a tough spot when Carl decided to shut his closest alliance mate, who happens to be very, emotionally volatile, out of the decision making process.   That left Christian with no perfect options.  

I totally disagree. A good player is not supposed to act emotionally. If Carl wants to be the boss, let him be the boss, eliminate the rest goliaths and then Christian, Gabby and Nick vote Carl out. The goliaths in the jury will appreciate it that the davids chose to remain loyal to their alliance no matter the difficulties. Christian already has friends in the jury, he doesn't need to sweat it anymore to get jury votes. Gabby and Christian imo had a straight way to the final tribal council and they blew it. I am not so sure Christian will make it to the FTC, he does have an idol but still.

[SVNBob]

16 minutes ago, himela said:

The goliaths in the jury will appreciate it that the davids chose to remain loyal to their alliance no matter the difficulties.

Not necessarily.  They could just as easily penalize them for not removing an annoyance when they had a chance.

That's always the Catch-22 of the jury.  You can never be 100% sure how they'll take any decision.

[MisterBluxom]

I just woke up after having a terrible nightmare.  I dreamed that this episode started a new tradition and from now on, every time someone is voted out, one or more other people will chime in unison,  "BING!"

Edited November 30, 2018 by MisterBluxom

[MissEwa]

12 hours ago, piewarmer said:

I'm twice Gabby's age but if you put me into a situation where I'm sleep and food deprived and by definition have to question the loyalty and motivation of every person around me who may be trying to betray me at any moment, my coping skills are going to tank and I'll probably not deal with frustration and anxiety well at all. Reason #467 why I won't ever be on Survivor.

I don't love seeing Gabby break into tears on the regular, but I can understand it a little.

Yep. I recently did a three-day Survivor role-play game thing (very briefly - it was part of a broader event but there were a dozen of us and we started at the merge, there were scheduled live events every day for challenges/tribals, and some scavenger-hunt type challenges in between. At the start of the game we were all thrown into a FB group chat and most alliances/scheming/strategy happened in smaller group chats) and despite the fact that there was no prize, it was completely for fun, I got to eat three meals a day, drink all the coffee I wanted, sleep in my own bed, wear whatever clothes I was comfortable in and see my family and best friends in between events, the anxiety and paranoia was intense. 

You didn't know what was happening behind your back, if you arrived for an event and an alliancemate was talking to someone else you swore you were being backstabbed, every single move was decided and we'd be like 'thats it, no need to keep discussing it' and then ten minutes later someone (sometimes me, sometimes not) would be messaging asking 'Are we sure? What if...' I honestly have a whole new respect for anyone who does real Survivor now and they can cry all they want for my money. It's HARD. 

11 hours ago, SuburbanHangSuite said:

So I can see where you're coming from except I really believe that Nick, Davie & Carl fully intended to stay loyal to the David alliance and it just so happened that the 3 of them were gathered to strategize and they wrongly assumed that Christan would be on board with whatever the alliance decided.  And they recognized that Christian seems to be the Gabby Whisperer who can keep her calm (relatively).  I don't think it was intended as disrespect or arrogance.  They just misjudged the loyalty to tribal lines.  The decision to deceive Gabby was based on feeling that she was becoming too chummy with Alison.  And they were correct.

Carl had said Gabby was his next target after Alison in exit interviews, so he wasn't intending to stay David strong at all. You're not staying true to your alliance if you are blatantly lying to one of them, even if it is for a reason you think is good. 

I can't find it, but there's a post somewhere asking if any flippers have ever won Survivor, and it got me thinking about the nature of flipping this season. It's been an interesting one - nobody's wanted to flip alone. Even the cross-tribe alliance after the merge was 3-3, and every time there's been a shift - or talk of a shift - it's been multiple players, even when it hasn't had to be (since the merge anyway). I feel like there is that fear of being seen as a flipper, meaning nobody's willing to do it unless they are doing it with someone else. Share the blood around, so to speak. But it's means it's not just the tribal lines that are blurred, it's what the actual flip is. 

On a very basic level, we're all talking about Gabby and Christian flipping in this episode, but they only did that because Carl brought in Angelina and pushed Gabby out of his alliance. So I would argue that Carl - and Davie and Nick, in sticking with him - were actually in the process of flipping, but Gabby and Christian caught them and voted him out before he could follow through. Carl was no more 'David Strong' (and honestly, I hate that term but it's just a catchier, more annoying way of saying 'loyal to your alliance' and it takes less time to type, so I'm using it) than they were. Gabby was annoyed with Carl but I think she would have stuck with him for a bit longer had he not blatantly left her out of the decision making to the extent of lying to her about their target. 

And it's interesting, because the discussion is so focussed on whether Gabby and Christian did the right thing and not what Carl was doing, and why. Two episodes ago he and Davie and Nick were so David strong they was using all their idols and advantages to to save the alliance despite being in no personal danger, and now they're working with Goliaths and abandoning that David alliance. Why? I get that Gabby's close to Alison but leaving her out of their planning and bringing Angelina in - when for the first time in the game they don't need a Goliath number to get the vote to go their way, and they have all the idols and know it - seems strange and sudden. 

[llewis823]

On 11/28/2018 at 9:00 PM, cooksdelight said:

HATE the underwater challenges. I don’t swim, claustrophobic as hell. I’d never make it. I hate to say it, but I was sort of glad to see people puking. They need to stop with the outrageously rich meals. I thought all 3 would get sick on those nachos. Alcohol doesn’t help in that heat, either

You and I are sharing a brain. I can't swim well either so neither would I. lol  And every single time they have one of those reward feasts, I tell my husband that I don't know how in the world they are okay after that when they go without food for so long. The one feast was greasy fried chicken, potato salad and corn...can you imagine? That screws up my stomach on a normal day - don't even want to think about what it would do to them...and they have to dig holes, don't they? Or do they have outhouses that they just don't show us?

[blackwing]

31 minutes ago, llewis823 said:

You and I are sharing a brain. I can't swim well either so neither would I. lol  And every single time they have one of those reward feasts, I tell my husband that I don't know how in the world they are okay after that when they go without food for so long. The one feast was greasy fried chicken, potato salad and corn...can you imagine? That screws up my stomach on a normal day - don't even want to think about what it would do to them...and they have to dig holes, don't they? Or do they have outhouses that they just don't show us?

I think most of them poop in the ocean.  There was the one season where Dan Foley was taking a dump in the ocean and “accidentally” lost his underwear.   I thought he admitted in an interview that he did it to be funny and memorable.  Wasn’t particularly funny, and unfortunately he was memorable for different reasons.

I’m not sure if there is a rule or not about having to take dumps in the ocean.  In one of the early seasons I remember that an outhouse was a reward.  Complete with toilet paper.  That was before immunity idols became a thing.  If people still are allowed to dump in the woods, I think it’d be hilarious if someone dug a hole and took a dump at the foot of the most distinctive looking trees in the forest.  Then when someone goes idol hunting and sees disturbed dirt at the base of a suspicious looking tree...

[Bryce Lynch]

5 hours ago, himela said:

I totally disagree. A good player is not supposed to act emotionally. If Carl wants to be the boss, let him be the boss, eliminate the rest goliaths and then Christian, Gabby and Nick vote Carl out. The goliaths in the jury will appreciate it that the davids chose to remain loyal to their alliance no matter the difficulties. Christian already has friends in the jury, he doesn't need to sweat it anymore to get jury votes. Gabby and Christian imo had a straight way to the final tribal council and they blew it. I am not so sure Christian will make it to the FTC, he does have an idol but still.

I agree that Christian made a big mistake (though we don't know how things will turn out).  My point was that he got caught in the middle of a conflict between 2 allies, and he stuck with the one he was closest to, rather than doing what probably made the most sense for his game.  To me, that is not nearly as bad as players who decide, "I'm gonna make a big move." and do something foolish for no good reason at all.  

[JudyObscure]

8 hours ago, MisterBluxom said:

[Ali] spoke of several examples in our culture how the word "black" has become associated with bad things and the word "white" with good things.

Nice name change, MisterBluxom.  I agree completely with both Green's post and yours.  Remember the old westerns when the good guys all wore white hats and the bad guys wore black ones? All of which caused me to be very surprised when the Black Pride movement of the sixties came along and African Americans themselves chose to be called "black," instead of "colored," the nice politically correct expression at the time.  So now we have a word, chosen to describe a race by the members themselves, which is so common in our language that we could never keep track of all the uses and phrases where it might be considered offensive.  We also have the recently developed concept of coding, something that is impossible to determine without actually reading the mind of the speaker. All to pass judgement on whether some people are evil racists or not and to decide when groups should rise up in outrage.  The irony is that in order to keep from offending, people like Kara, probably gently raised by nonracist parents and teachers, is at fault for not knowing the sort of racist terms used by ignorant white nationals and KKK members. The biggest irony of all is that their really is no such thing as separate races, almost no  one has skin that is white or black, we all fall somewhere on a wide spectrum of shades and in a few years brown will describe the large majority of Americans.  We all should start refusing to check those race boxes on forms and using race as a descriptor until the entire concept phases out.

3 hours ago, MissEwa said:

I honestly have a whole new respect for anyone who does real Survivor now and they can cry all they want for my money. It's HARD. 

I agree completely that it's all very hard.  I know the sleep deprivation alone would have me throwing Elizabeth-style temper tantrums, Dan-style pout sessions, and Gabby-style sob fests.  But that's what would make me, like those three, not great at Survivor.  Gabby's conditions aren't one bit harder than anyone else's out there so I feel free to credit the ones who keep their cool for outplaying her.

[Bryce Lynch]

15 hours ago, tiredofwork said:

We will disagree forever on that..  Our perspectives are going to be different, So you are dismissing all of the outraged  Af/Americans who were outraged.   Which of course is your right to do. 

The outrage was manufactured by politicians and the media to try to influence the election.  If you watch the video, it is absolutely absurd to think there was any racial component to it.  She was saying that she liked the guy so much that she would "fight a circle saw" or "attend a public hanging" if he asked her to.  

It is a common political tactic to take a candidates words and twist them out of context for political gain.  The deceit is always wrong, but I believe it is even worse when doing so intentionally stirs up racial strife. 

[SuburbanHangSuite]

31 minutes ago, blackwing said:

In one of the early seasons I remember that an outhouse was a reward.  Complete with toilet paper.  That was before immunity idols became a thing.

Heh.  One of my fav seasons.  I still cackle thinking about Bobby (President Beefcake!) & Bruce getting sloshed in the outhouse while the rest of the tribe slept.  Good times.

3 hours ago, MissEwa said:

Carl had said Gabby was his next target after Alison in exit interviews, so he wasn't intending to stay David strong at all. You're not staying true to your alliance if you are blatantly lying to one of them, even if it is for a reason you think is good. 

 

OK.  I didn't see any exit interviews so that's interesting intel.  I wonder if just Carl was targeting Gabby or Nick and Davie also?  I'm not one for wishing my life away but next Wednesday can't get here soon enough.

[ByaNose]

I think I will put a tape together and apply online. I doubt I would get cast since I'm over 50. Yup! I'm now the old person. How did that happen? I've been watching since Season 1 Episode 1. I have never missed an episode. I'm a super fan but not a super dooper fan. That said, I really would like to see if I could make it 3 days. If I didn't get voted out 1st or die I would be happy with experience. LOL!!!! Also, I will not cry. I will not shed a tear. I'll just say it's because of allergies. That will work,right? LOL!!!

[ProfCrash]

8 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree completely that it's all very hard.  I know the sleep deprivation alone would have me throwing Elizabeth-style temper tantrums, Dan-style pout sessions, and Gabby-style sob fests.  But that's what would make me, like those three, not great at Survivor.  Gabby's conditions aren't one bit harder than anyone else's out there so I feel free to credit the ones who keep their cool for outplaying her.

Not picking on you but I don't feel like quoting everyone who said that same thing.

Different people respond to stress in different ways. I don't want to cry but that is my bodies response. It has taken a while but I am up to 45 minutes in a high stress situation before I start to cry. It is a struggle to get to that 45 minute mark. So I get Gabby and her response. There is no one at work who would say that I am useless or need to grow up or anything along those lines. But when things get really stressful, there will be tears. I don't like it but that is life.

So I don't buy the "other people don't cry" argument. You don't know how my mind and body deals with stress. If my tears bother you, that is your issue not my issue. I know that there are jobs that I would not take because I am not great in high stress situations. Trust me when I say that Gabby knows how she responds and she is probably not happy with it or  how people comment about it.

The others have different responses. Dan shut down and took a bit of time after John was voted out, and people hammered him. Alec walked off and stared at the sea after this weeks immunity challenge. We don't necessarily see what other folks are doing but I am sure that there are some folks who walk off and scream. I suspect that Natalie and Natalia are control freaks because they think that helps them reduce stress.

For all of her tears, Gabby has been able to perform in challenges and has been able to see what is happening around camp and analyze what is happening with a good amount of accuracy. She seems to be functioning just fine in the game. I think the tears will hurt her if she makes it to the finals, and I think she is aware of that. In the same way that the one person from Millennials had that anxiety attack and it sank her game at finals. As a society, we deem public displays of nerves as some how problematic and weak and people pay for it. But outbursts that lead to things being slammed and shouting are discouraged but people seem to set them aside far more easily. It drives me crazy.

[Bryce Lynch]

16 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Christian’s move was a good one for him. Carl, Nick and Davie had decided on Alec and then Alison and simply told Christian how to vote. Carl even told Christian to tell Gabby that they were voting for Angelina. 

Carl, Davie, and Nick did not engage Christian in a conversation about who should be voted out and explained they were worried about Gabby because she was friends with Alison. But Carl, Davie and Nick decided who was going home and told Christian. 

Christian was not included in the conversation. He was not a part of the decision making. Christian knew that Carl, Davie and Nick were willing to lie to Gabby about who was going home. So why should Christian believe that he is in a good place with them? Why should Christian believe what they are telling him when they falt out told Christian to lie to an alliance member? 

Why should Gabby or Christian feel good about the David alliance when the other Davids told Kara and Angelina about the Alec vote before talking to Gabby?

No, Nick, Carl and Davie did not say “Christian and Gabby are at the bottom of our alliance.” or “Angelina replaced Gabby in our alliance.” But Nick, Carl, and Davie sure as hell acted like Christian and Gabby were at the bottom of the alliance and as if Angelina had replaced Gabby.

Everyone out there knows Gabby. Why would Carl, Nick or Davie think it was a good idea to not talk to gabby about a plan that she was suppose to be a part of because they were in an alliance? Gabby is someone that you don’t want to do anything that might make her anxious because anxious Gabby is paranoid Gabby and upset Gabby. Yet the three of them seemed to go out of their way to ignore Gabby. It was crazy. 

In one of his exit interviews Carl flat out said that he was targeting Gabby after Alison and that he knew he would be a target but that he thought that would be after this vote. Christian and Gabby took out someone who clearly did not see them as a part of their alliance and was using them as votes. 

Maybe Nick and Davie should have checked Carl a bit more and made sure to include Christian and Gabby instead of bossing them around. But that didn’t happy. I don’t think it was an awful move. 

This is an interesting perspective.  I'm not sure Davie and Nick were shutting him out as much as it was Carl making the decision and everyone else just going along.  Christian could have shared his opinions and concerns with Carl, Davie and Nick, rather than going behind their backs with Gabby.

If Carl says he was targeting Gabby next, IMO, that makes it even clearer that Christian made a bad move.  Worst case scenario, Christian gets to the Final 7, and joins up with Kara and Mike to be in 3 against 4 situation, and he has an idol.  

But there it would also be very likely that at 8, he could have arranged a coup of Carl, or at least convinced the David alliance to vote out Mike or Kara, instead of Gabby.  The other players probably see Gabby as a decent goat candidate and if Gabby and Christian threatened to join Mike and Kara for to create a 4-4 stalemate, I'm pretty sure at least one David would vote out Carl, Angelina, Mike or Kara, to avoid that.   

Now it seems like Christian is isolated in the middle with only Gabby solidly with him.  Given that he is seen as a huge threat by everyone, I have to think he will be targeted.   I'm guessing the other 6 will split their votes on Christian and Gabby, to either eliminate Christian, or eliminate his ally and force him to use his idol.   

But, who knows.  Christian and Gabby might be able to scramble survive. 

[ProfCrash]

The Davids were going to have to break at some point. As much as we have clearly identified that Gabby tends to have emotional responses to the game, we have also established that Carl holds a grudge. There is not a person out there who was not aware that Carl was fine with Elizabeth going home because Elizabeth was a part of the Jessica blindside. Christian and Nick had thrown Gabby under the bus as being the mastermind behind the Jessica vote, so it would be safe to assume that Gabby and Christian knew that Carl more likely then not held a grudge against Gabby.

The question is when was the right time for Gabby to target Carl? Does Gabby let one of her Goliath allies go, Allison, and then rally to take out Carl or does Gabby take out Carl when she can do so and protect her ally, Allison? Allison was a part of the Strike Force and had demonstrated she was able to give lip service to working with the Davids. Now that the number have changed, Allison actually has a good reason to work with Christian and Gabby. Allison knows she was Carl, Nick and Davie's target. Allison has a good reason to stick with Christian and Gabby because she is aware that Davie and Nick see her as a threat.

Mike and Kara are wildcards, but when you see your "alliance" behaving the way Nick, Davie and Carl did, why should you trust them?

I have seen the arguments that Davie, Nick and Carl saved Christian in two votes so Christian should have trusted them. I don't buy that for a second. First, they didn't save Christian because they like Christian, they saved Christian because they needed the numbers to not get any worse. Second, saving Christian allowed them to remove several competition threats (John and Dan). Third, saving Christian helps them at final tribal because they can point to solid game play (finding idols/advantages, not telling people about said items, and strategic use of said items).

Christian benefits because he stays in the game and stronger players were knocked out but the move was not made because Carl, Davie and Nick simply adore Christian that much. It was good, strategic game play on their part. Just like Dan playing his idol for Angelina was good game play. Dan, didn't really want to save Angelina but he knew he needed to protect his alliances numbers and that meant protecting Angelina. Carl, Davie, and Nick happened to be able to save someone who most of the viewing audience, and apparently people playing the game, likes better.

Christian owes Carl, Davie and Nick as much loyalty as Angelina owed Dan, none. They made a move that benefitted Christian because it benefited them. If Carl, Davie and Nick wanted to maintain their alliance strong, they should have included everyone in their alliance. Yes, Carl wanted Allison gone but if the idea is to knock off the Goliath's, then would it really have been that bad to have voted out Mike or Kara before Allison? Allison won one immunity challenge and has not been all that close in any other immunity challenge. She was close to Davie in the word one, but only after Carl's word was announced to everyone and put her on the right path.

Carl, Davie and Nick played these vote badly. Alec was an obvious vote but you talk to your alliance before you bring in other people. That is Survivor 101. The Allison vote was not as obvious and there should have been some discussion. I am sure that Nick was partial to not voting out Mike but I can't think of anyone on the Davids that was tight with Kara. Davie and Carl where on a tribe with her but it was clear she was at the bottom of that group.

Davie, Carl and Nick let the power go to their head and stopped playing a smart game. They got lazy and it bit them in the ass.

The move could hurt Christian but Christian has had a target on his back since the merge. He has had plenty of votes thrown his way and his name thrown out before he got votes. Gabby is probably seen as more of a goat then a threat. So Christian making a move on his alliance mates who appears to have relegated him to the bottom of the alliance and targeting one of his bigger allies. It is risky but risky does not mean bad.

[MisterBluxom]

I just re-watched this episode and focused on Angelina. There was one aspect of her behavior that I thought best defines her personality. Please allow me to first set the stage.

It was during the first TC (where Alec was about to be voted out). Christian had just commented how everything in the game was a "calculated risk". Then Angelina spoke up saying, "You know what, Jeff? I think the concept of "calculated decisions" is really salient right now. Everything is done with intention. You know, should I get this food and am I feeling in a good place with the people that say they trust me and who I say that I trust and that was something that was part of my calculation as well."

Remember how she had previously complained about how she had originally suggested the idea that someone should be voted out but no one paid any attention to the idea when she suggested it. But then, a few days later, one of the men (call him Mr. Z.) suggested the very same idea and everyone immediately agreed to do it and praised Mr. Z. for having come up with such a good idea.  Angelina was really pissed off about this because it was originally her idea and no one paid any attention when she suggested it but a few days later when Mr. Z suggested the very same idea, everyone acted as if that was the very first time they had ever heard that idea.

Well, IMO, everything she said during the TC about "calculated decision" was just a cover for what she really wanted to say. When she said,"and that was something that was part of my calculation as well.", I got a vision that what she was really saying was, "You are going to give Christian credit for using this advanced phrase "calculated risk" and so I'm going to use the same phrase to show that when I made my "sacrifice" for the team, I did the same thing that Christian did. I don't want you all to think that a man used this brilliant concept but a girl didn't. So I'm making sure that I rub your faces in the fact that Cristian wasn't the only one who used that big concept. I used it as well and don't you all forget that. I am just as good as a man is. Also, I want to rub your faces in the fact that I can use a big word too - like SALIENT

The following is my interpretation of what Angelina really wanted to say but felt she couldn't and so instead, she said that nonsense about "calculated decisions".

 

The following is my vision for what Angelina really wanted to say instead of that nonsense about "calculated decisions":

"You know what? I'm still really angry with you people because a few days ago I suggested we should vote out Mr. X and no one paid any attention to me. Then, before the next Tribal was held Mr. Z. made the same suggestion and you all loved it and immediately agreed with him saying it was a great idea. You didn't like it when I first suggested it but then you loved it when Mr. Z. suggested it? It was originally my idea. My idea. MINE. ALL MINE. You know why you didn't pay any attention to it when I suggested it? It's because I'm a girl and you don't believe that girls can have good ideas. You don't listen to a perfectly excellent idea when I suggested it but then - a few days later - when Mr. Z. suggests it, you all go apeshit for it. And you know what the worst part is?

Nobody has ever apologized to me. Senator? This committee owes me an apology. Why won't you apologize? I want an apology. This committee owes me an apology! 

I finally decided there is a word that best describes Angelina. She is a "brat". When she doesn't get her way, she throws a tantrum. No one can recognize this tantrum for what it is because she is smart enough to know that if she complained about what was really bothering her, people would just tell her to "shut up" or "go away". So, she puts on this phony display and that is why Mike then covered his face and Alison said that she no longer buys what Angelina is selling. I think that is also why people here have said they think she provides good entertainment value. The reason is this kind of behavior is to laugh at. She is a ridiculous brat who didn't get her way but thinks that was wrong and she is owed an apology. Mike, Kara, Alison, can you give me my apology? Please? Mike? Kara? Alison?

By the way I have never heard of any such concept as "calculated decisions". I know Angelina likes to present herself as expert in many different fields - like in battle strategy because her husband was in the Marines or in the scient of negotiation in which she sure did not seem to know very much. But here again, I think she spouts off because her feelings are hurt when the truth is that she has no idea what she is talking about.

I looked up "salient" at dictionary.com and it said: Salient - adjective - prominent or conspicuous

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/salient

Edited November 30, 2018 by MisterBluxom

[MisterBluxom]

9 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

<snip> Davie, Carl and Nick let the power go to their head and stopped playing a smart game. They got lazy and it bit them in the ass. <snip>

Excuse me for snipping so much of your post but I wanted to focus on that single sentence so I could say:   PERFECTO!

IMHO, you summarized their mindset perfectly. Can you please tell us what is your special power that enables you to get inside other peoples' minds. I believe this is the 3rd time I've seen you do that. It is very impressive. But it's also a little scary.  (just kidding - it's not really scary - but it really is impressive)

[ProfCrash]

As someone who has studied game theory and econometrics, I can tell you that the notion of a "calculated decision" is nothing new or exciting. I see it as the same thing as a calculated risk, or a preference ordering or any other number of turns of phrases that indicates that human beings are, by definition, rational actors. You and I might not understand what is driving a persons behavior because we do not necessarily fully understand how they establish their preferences, but all humans have some manner of establishing what their preferred outcome is and try to get that outcome or, at the least, the best possible outcome they can manage. I have no doubt that Angelina has take some economics or stats or game theory classes and is well aware of what a calculated decision is. She probably studied bargaining models and decision theory in her negotiations class.

Christian and Gabby have been very much playing this way. You can hear Christian and Gabby talk through their options and weigh the pros and cons of each action. Gabby flat out laid out what she saw happening at camp, Carl/Davie/Nick not talking to her about the Alec vote before talking to Kara and Angelina. Angelina being more involved in with the Carl/Davie/Nick then Gabby. The last piece was Christian telling Gabby that Carl wanted Christian to lie about the vote.

You could hear it in how Christian responded to Carl. He immediately saw where Carl was going, "You want me to tell Gabby Angelina because Gabby is too close to Alison and you are worried that Gabby won't be happy with an Alison vote." You could see that Christian understood the implications of that decision, made without consulting Christian, and walked to Gabby with a clear plan. The difference is that Christian is a very smooth customer and understood how to respond to Carl and how to talk to Gabby.

This is a season of nerds. Alison, Angelina, and Gabby have been able to follow a fair amount of what Christian has said. Christian is the one who said "Fractals" but there were at least three people who knew what Christian was talking about even while John and Dan were joking about not knowing what Christian was talking about. But Christian and Angelina have both used phrases and concepts that are well known to a decent percent of the population. Gabby is a technical writer, she knows the language. And to a decent percentage of Survivor nerds who probably read all the articles talking about Survivor as a game theory exercise from the early days of the show.

Personally, I have been loving this season because there are so many players out there who are smart and, to be frank, confident in their intelligence. Gabby might not handle the stress well but her conversations with Christian show how well she sees what is happening. Allison is freaking smart, not a great player, but smart. Angelina is smart but needs to learn how to express her intelligence and confidence with less entitlement. Angelina and Gabby are young, I think they are both 25, and can easily use this season as a growing experience. They stand to gain the most by seeing how the world perceives them and trying to adjust their responses.