S01.E01: Approachable Dreams

[teapot]

On 11/26/2018 at 10:29 AM, Ohwell said:

 

I'm settled in and booed up, and hope to stay that way, but if I were ever out in the dating scene again, I would never do online dating.  I'm old school and it's just not my thing at all.    

HA!  boy-child met his GF on a dating site, and I asked them, "how did you decide to do that?  did your friends talk you into it or something?"

he says, "no, mom, it's what you do, you get bored, you swipe..."

me:  "no.  no way, never, that is weird." (i've been married to his dad for 29 years, but that would never be my thing.)

he says, "well, you guys used to talk to complete STRANGERS.  now THAT's weird!"

gotta say, he has a point.

On 11/26/2018 at 10:58 AM, itsadryheat said:

Very accurate first episode. Connie has Debra's "airy" speech down to a tee. I suggested the podcast to a younger work associate, and she couldn't get past Debra's voice. 

 

Is she originally from California? was it a tinge of a Midwestern accent?  that's what I thought it sounded like.

[red12]

On 11/26/2018 at 10:34 AM, Empress1 said:

I believe it - two young SoCal women would definitely speak like that. 

When Debra said Veronica's behavior is embarrassing, I thought "Yeah, you SHOULD be embarrassed. You raised children who, as young adults, break things when they don't get their way - things that you paid for, by the way." I wish the fuck I would. 

  Hide contents

 

Does anyone know the which came first? Do the daughters hate all their mom's boyfriends because the girls are spoiled or do they hate them because they were raised by a needy, passive mom with terrible taste in men? I listened to the podcast and couldn't tell then either. 

My mom says that I hated everybody except the man who became my stepdad. She said I was always right about the guys even though she might initially disregard my opinion if it was someone she really liked dating.

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, teapot said:

he says, "well, you guys used to talk to complete STRANGERS.  now THAT's weird!"

gotta say, he has a point.

Well, talking to strangers in person, at least we know what they really look like, as opposed to some altered photo.  Also, we can pick up on any strange vibes.

[Neurochick]

I wonder if John walked around in scrubs because he'd seen Dr. Oz do that on his show.  (BTW, he doesn't walk around like that outside of the hospital).

Oh

Spoiler

and the youngest daughter was living with her boyfriend, only the oldest lived with her mother.  And according to the podcast she did not know where John lived or anything, before asking him to live with her.  Strange.

[yourmomiseasy]

6 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I can already see both daughters are going to get hate posted on this board.   I honestly thought that they were genuinely worried about their mom but just acted like  kids do when confronted with their parents sex life.  Plus Debra was lying to them and being manipulated.  I am betting they are going to be treated like worse villians on boards like this because they are bitchy then the guy who is a con man.

I have more than enough hate in me to go around.  Just because the daughters are right about John doesn't mean they can't be annoying AF.  Also, they are not kids.  IRL when this all goes down the one that lives at home is 26 and the other one is 24.  I am predisposed to not liking them from things from the podcast.  I think the only family member I didn't dislike was the nephew.  Also, their distrust of John and their criticism of their mother isn't what I find annoying about the daughters, but since it was from the podcast and not on the show yet, I can't go into specifics here.

3 hours ago, itsadryheat said:

The daughters annoying, bratty behavior, is nothing compared to Debra's horrible judgement and choices.  Loved the podcast, but had a real problem with Debra. Guess I need therapy, because as vile as John was, she irked me the most.  I related to the kids frustration more than Debra's desperation

I really disliked Debra and then felt like an asshole when I listened to the live episode of the podcast about domestic abuse.  

[Chaos Theory]

One of my uncles died young.  My aunt hasn’t  remarried (I keep joking she needs to find herself a young  gigalo ).  She did however do very very very well in her professional life borderline rich. Her eldest lived with her for years even after graduating college and getting a job.  It worked for both of them.  Eventually though the daughter actually wanted her own space but my aunt wanted her close so helped pay for an apartment my cousin could never afford on her own.   Roommates have never worked out for any of my family. 

Anyway...I can see a very single Debra liking her daughter living with her even with  a shrink being necessary and it working ....until a man comes into the picture.  Men ruin everything.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Empress1]

11 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I wonder if John walked around in scrubs because he'd seen Dr. Oz do that on his show.  (BTW, he doesn't walk around like that outside of the hospital).

Most doctors don't. Totally performative from John.

[Neurochick]

I am going to just call it.  Debra would have NEVER bothered with John had he not been handsome (at least to her).  If he'd been shorter and heavier, even if he had all the receipts, Debra would have turned her nose up at him.  It's not that John was this master manipulator, it's that he knew that all it took was to be a healthy, well spoken, intelligent, good looking white male and many women wouldn't ask the important questions.  

One of the hardest things to do is to not make assumptions about people based on how they look, or how they speak.  All of us do it.  It's like some people see a light skinned black person and assume that they MUST be biracial, when more than likely, that's not the case.  Or if someone speaks a certain way, they must be educated, and sometimes that's not the case.  Look at a recent case on an airplane when a passenger was in distress, a black woman doctor offered to help and some people actually couldn't believe that SHE was a doctor.  Why did they question that?  If she had been male, would they have assumed different?

So Debra looked at John, and even though his behavior raised all sorts of red flags, she was probably blinded by the way he looked and the way he carried himself.  I mean if someone tells you that they're a member of "Doctors Without Borders," would you automatically assume it's true?  If so, then why, or why not?  

This show is very interesting.

[Empress1]

25 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Look at a recent case on an airplane when a passenger was in distress, a black woman doctor offered to help and some people actually couldn't believe that SHE was a doctor.  Why did they question that?  If she had been male, would they have assumed different?

Not if he were Black, IMO. (When that story went viral I thought "Is that the same one from before?" because there was another story about a passenger in distress, a Black woman doctor who tried to help, and the flight attendants didn't believe her.) I think a Black male doctor would have gotten the same response, and a white female doctor would have been told "right this way."

27 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I am going to just call it.  Debra would have NEVER bothered with John had he not been handsome (at least to her).  If he'd been shorter and heavier, even if he had all the receipts, Debra would have turned her nose up at him.  It's not that John was this master manipulator, it's that he knew that all it took was to be a healthy, well spoken, intelligent, good looking white male and many women wouldn't ask the important questions.  

One of the hardest things to do is to not make assumptions about people based on how they look, or how they speak.  All of us do it.  It's like some people see a light skinned black person and assume that they MUST be biracial, when more than likely, that's not the case.  Or if someone speaks a certain way, they must be educated, and sometimes that's not the case. [snip]

So Debra looked at John, and even though his behavior raised all sorts of red flags, she was probably blinded by the way he looked and the way he carried himself.  I mean if someone tells you that they're a member of "Doctors Without Borders," would you automatically assume it's true?  If so, then why, or why not?  

This show is very interesting.

I think it's a combination of both. I do think that John had figured out, probably in large part because of the way the world tends to treat white men who are average height or taller, reasonably fit (especially as you get to be over a certain age) and good-looking and can present themselves reasonably well (cargo shorts notwithstanding, heh), that he could use that to get what he wants. He has to be able to convince people that he's a wealthy doctor; that's relatively easy for someone like him to do if he's wearing scrubs.

Spoiler

I think he'd have had a harder time convincing people he was, say, a banker because he quite literally didn't have the clothes to look the part - which he probably knew, hence the scrubs/doctor lie. 

I also think Debra was just not good at her personal life - it's not a coincidence that she has four ex-husbands. (John probably thought "Gold!" when she told him that.) I remember reading a story about Scientology, and in it a woman who was NOT a Scientologist talked about how she worked near a Church of Scientology and had to walk by it every day. And she said on the days where she was feeling good, walking tall, can't tell me nothin', nobody from the church tried to talk to her. On days where she was upset, sad, whatever, and that showed on her face and in her comportment, they would approach her and try to talk to her about changing her life. I think people who want to take advantage of people pick people who are easy to take advantage of, and that's not everyone.

Spoiler

Also, she saw her sister murdered by an abusive husband and her mother rally to THE HUSBAND'S side and get him a lenient sentence; the DA said he'd never seen a family throw a victim under the bus like that. So I think on some level, she probably internalized prioritizing men AND there was a history of abuse in the family.

[Starlight925]

As to why no one found it strange that he didn’t have a car, many clothes, etc., remember:  he told her he’d spent the prior year in “Doctors Without Borders”, so he’d gotten rid of most of his stuff.  That was his story, anyway. 

 

This accomplished 2 things:  it provided him with a great excuse for not having a car or clothes, and it elicited sympathy. What a greaaaat guy he is.....

Edited November 27, 2018 by Sterling

[DrSparkles]

I am confused about the poor woman thinking he’s her anesthesiologist. Unless I’m lost & he’s actually her anesthesiologist??

[TexasGal]

9 minutes ago, DrSparkles said:

I am confused about the poor woman thinking he’s her anesthesiologist. Unless I’m lost & he’s actually her anesthesiologist??

I think those scenes are flashbacks?  Not sure yet. 

[Starlight925]

1 hour ago, DrSparkles said:

I am confused about the poor woman thinking he’s her anesthesiologist. Unless I’m lost & he’s actually her anesthesiologist??

Without getting into spoiler territory, I’ll hide my answer.  LSS:  yes it’s a flashback.  

Spoiler

He was addicted to the drugs he administered as a nurse anesthetist.  He wrote these meds for this patient, but he stole them for his own personal use.  This is why the patient was screaming in agony, but the other nurses couldn’t give her anything:  her chart showed she had already been given the maximum.

 

 

 

Just now, Sterling said:

Without getting into spoiler territory, I’ll hide my answer.  

He never was an anesthesiologist; he lied about that.   He was a nurse anesthetist.

 LSS:  yes it’s a flashback.

There is more to the story but it’s spoiler-y:

  Reveal hidden contents

He was addicted to the drugs he administered as a nurse anesthetist.  He wrote these meds for this patient, but he stole them for his own personal use.  This is why the patient was screaming in agony, but the other nurses couldn’t give her anything:  her chart showed she had already been given the maximum.

 

 

 

[DrSparkles]

@Sterling  Thanks! Dammmnnnnnn

[Starlight925]

Remember he “led” the patient to her pain level?   He said “So you’re at a 10?  A 10 right?” and the patient agreed.  

Also, as for the reason he told the patients he was the anesthesiologist instead of the nurse, it was so he sounded better because he wanted to date them.  Remember how he asked her if anyone was coming to be with her?  He was trying to ascertain whether she was alone.

Who would be more vulnerable than a female patient who’s going to be alone after surgery?  So this was a prime target for him.

Spoiler:

Spoiler

This was how he got his drugs.   When the patients were coming out of surgery but still woozy, he’d convince them they were at a 10 so he could fake-administer, then steal, their meds.  Of course he wanted the highest dose, so it was always a “10”.  He was a “traveling” nurse, so it took a long time for him to get caught. 

 

 

There’s a very chilling toxicity .... thing.... after the very end of the story. It actually wasn’t part of the original podcast.  Once more episodes are aired, I’ll post it. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Sterling

[2727]

Gender aside, I'm never going to respond positively to wealthy, entitled, snotty 20-somethings being indulged by their parents.

It just smacks of Alex Kelly syndrome to me.

Edited November 28, 2018 by 2727

[Door County Cherry]

20 hours ago, red12 said:

Does anyone know the which came first? Do the daughters hate all their mom's boyfriends because the girls are spoiled or do they hate them because they were raised by a needy, passive mom with terrible taste in men? I listened to the podcast and couldn't tell then either. 

This is a great question and one I had too.  I thought it was interesting how they introduced both daughters.  Ronnie was shown to be a brat from the beginning.  She was judgmental before even meeting John and she didn't even try to be nice to him.  It was hard to like her.  I found it much easier to like Terra.  Her first introduction to us was her quirky obsession with zombies and John was a complete ass to her right away. So her antipathy made absolute sense.

Their dislike could just be because of who they are. But after seeing more of how naive Debra was, I also wonder if Ronnie and Terra just had enough of their mother's love life.  I think back to my younger years when I would listen to friends share their relationship woes with me and I'd quickly get fed up with them sharing why their relationship wasn't working/making them miserable but refusing to change anything. And that was just typical young adult stuff.  I can't imagine how I'd react to seeing my mother have four marriages, many of which sounded bad according to what Debra said.  

I definitely think Debra's bad choice in men fueled the daughters' attitudes.  Ironically, I think the daughters' attitudes ended up pushing Debra to continue to double down with John.  She knows she deserves love and she wants to believe that she can pick out a good person for her so she was going to make sure that was John.  It could be a reason she was willing to ignore the red flags or not dig any further. Confirmation bias.

I was a little surprised they glossed over Debra finding out John was a nurse (with a PhD, according to him) rather than a MD.  I feel like that was an important part of the story to show just how much she was willing herself to believe.  

19 hours ago, Neurochick said:

So Debra looked at John, and even though his behavior raised all sorts of red flags, she was probably blinded by the way he looked and the way he carried himself.  I mean if someone tells you that they're a member of "Doctors Without Borders," would you automatically assume it's true?  If so, then why, or why not?  

Not just Doctors Without Borders but MSF (Médecins Sans Frontières)--the French title.  You're right, why wouldn't she believe him with little details like that?  I think looks were a factor.  And attractiveness to her.  But also he was smart in the way he wooed her. He made it seem like he stalked out because he was overwhelmed with how perfect she was for him.  He made sure she was a witness to his attempt at being nice to Ronnie.  He did performative worship.

[Kdawg82]

I recall having read how anwsthesiologists are pretty notorious for "getting high on their own supply" so to speak. That part doesnt shock me and no offense to anesthesiologists bc during my 2nd cesarean , he was my favorite guy in the room. A young Armenian guy, holding my hand and comforting me as my husband was with our new baby in nursery and they tried to get me sewn up as I lost a lot of blood. But I digress. 

I think when John explained away his poor finances, Debra was willing to go along with it. Why? Maybe she was stuck paying alimony to a prior husband so she comiserated. Also in order to vindicate the object of your affection, you have to believe that he was wronged by prior wife.  That's got to be the psychology here. People are divorced for many reasons. But someone like Debra would easily be swayed to believe john was wronged bc SHE needed to believe it.

[Vivigirl10]

For those of you who are enjoying this but haven't listened to the podcost (or for those who are watching and just watched the Dateline episode too), please, please, listen to the podcost.  It is so enthralling but also provides such a deeper level of explanation for everything that is going on.  You can already tell this mini-series is going to gloss over some important details.

Spoiler

Like the fact that he went on and on about how comfortable Debra's bed was because he literally had just gotten out of prison.  I wonder if they'll touch on her sister's murder, her Mother's reaction and the family testifying on behalf of her murderer.  Or what John did to his own sister.  That's deep stuff that viewers need to know.  

Quote

Loved the podcast, but had a real problem with Debra. Guess I need therapy, because as vile as John was, she irked me the most. 

I so agree.  I'm even irked that she's getting continued attention (like this series) based on her abhorent actions and decisions.  Isn't she almost as criminally negligent as he was when you really think about it?  

I didn't find Ronnie (Jacquelyn) as ballsy and obnoxious on the podcast as she's being portrayed here.  The voices though, wow, they really are that bad.  

[Neurochick]

19 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Not if he were Black, IMO. (When that story went viral I thought "Is that the same one from before?" because there was another story about a passenger in distress, a Black woman doctor who tried to help, and the flight attendants didn't believe her.) I think a Black male doctor would have gotten the same response, and a white female doctor would have been told "right this way."

And that's the thing.  They questioned the Black woman doctor because she was black, and you're right, they would probably question a Black male doctor too.  But John, he could have said anything and Debra would be like, "okay."  

[crgirl412]

On 11/26/2018 at 12:33 AM, Mint Julep said:

The comparison to Vicki and Brooks of RHOC is pretty spot on.  Vicki even sees herself as Debra, the naive, successful business woman with several failed marriages and so desperate for love she ignores all red flags. Now waiting to see if John fakes cancer.

He's lying to people already.  I thought I saw that he tells people he's an Anesthesiologist but he's really a Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist (CRNA.)   BIG DIFFERENCE!!!  

On 11/26/2018 at 9:33 AM, teddysmom said:

I've listened to the podcast (no spoilers) and the daughter is being depicted exactly as she behaved the first time she saw John.  The LA Times story goes into even more detail. 

Also, Dateline did an episode on this just a few weeks ago, and we get to see interviews with Debra and her family, and others.

She was delusional from the get go. 

Who wants to start a pool on how long it is before she's on Real Housewives of Orange County?  You know this is Cohen's little scheme. 

I wanted to know more about the True Story!!  I'm going to try to find it!! 

[crgirl412]

I'm an RN who worked at 2 very large academic medical centers.  It is still pretty rare to see female docs.  Most people believe that any male is the doc and if he is Asian, I don't think people question it, really.  Asian females are second in the numbers of docs- at least where I work and live-then white females, black males and black females in that order.  I learned that if you don't know and can't see their badge or the embroidery on their white coat or whatever, just call them Dr. and let them correct you if they aren't.  It's better than putting someone in a box and you being embarrassed and offending them.     

Also, if I'm in an emergency situation, I'm going to believe anyone who says that they are a doc because the fakes aren't that public about it BUT I'd be more worried about what kind of doctor they are.  An ER nurse is far more valuable than many kinds of doctors and if the RN works in the ER of a Level 1 Trauma Center, most of the doctors can just take a seat.     

Edited December 1, 2018 by crgirl412

[breezy424]

I just have a really hard time believing that a successful business woman can be this dumb.  Can someone tell me what year this takes place?  Don't you google someone?  There were red flags all over the place.

And then she marries him....without a prenup?  WTF?  I remember seeing the story on Dateline a while ago and thought the same thing.

I want to have sympathy for her but at the same time I kind of don't.  Yeah, that's kind of horrible on my part

[Sun-Bun]

8 hours ago, breezy424 said:

I just have a really hard time believing that a successful business woman can be this dumb. 

You’d be shocked. Some people may have high IQ’s and brilliant heads for business, but their EQ’s are often so low that their social/romantic lives are complete messes. 

Reminds me of my sister-in-law—-shrewd businesswoman who was smart enough to work her way up in her field from age 18 to 60 and retire early with a fantastic pension and a fab home/car to prove it; but after three awful marriages to cheaters and endless failed relationships with similar sleazebags, it’s obvious that the poor woman simply doesn’t know how to pick a good man. She’s attracted to losers and has a fantasy ideal of what “love” truly is. Or I’m guessing homegirl can’t admit to being so easily dickmatized.

My guess is that Debra was so similarly dickmatized and swept up by John that she didn’t want to know the truth about him and simply chose to ignore all those red flags. She probably rationalized in her head that somehow their love would prevail and one day her daughters would learn to love John like she did too. She probably thought she was just blocking out the haters, bless her heart.

[jvr]

I can't spend time on this board since all the discussion reveals way too much, thanks to those who are trying but people are letting too much slip that wasn't shown in this first episode. I already know Debra didn't die in real life because people have mentioned her being interviewed or whatever for the other specials. I'm happy she survived whatever happens to her by this guy but I wouldn't mind if the fictional story had her get killed. I'm sorry, what a fucking dumbass. I'm so mad at the danger she is putting her daughters in, I just can't take the thought that something will happen to one of them because of her delusions. The level of desperation from this woman is beyond belief but I guess it occurs in real life, as some have stated here. 

Since I already know so much, I might just listen to the podcast and get it over with and watch the tv show at my leisure. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by jvr

[walnutqueen]

1 hour ago, jvr said:

I can't spend time on this board since all the discussion reveals way too much, thanks to those who are trying but people are letting too much slip that wasn't shown in this first episode.

I agree - the level of spoilers in the episode thread is unacceptable (and inconsiderate).  Even though I've seen the Dateline (?) episode about this, I have not listened to the podcast.  I try to stay unspoiled for all the shows I watch, but unfortunately, once you've read a spoiler, you cannot unsee it.  

[MaryPatShelby]

20 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

I agree - the level of spoilers in the episode thread is unacceptable (and inconsiderate).  Even though I've seen the Dateline (?) episode about this, I have not listened to the podcast.  I try to stay unspoiled for all the shows I watch, but unfortunately, once you've read a spoiler, you cannot unsee it.  

Agreed, though maybe some spoilers have been hidden since this ep aired.  There was one comment that confused me though - about John asking the surgery patient to rate the level of her pain.  Was that in the show or somewhere else?  I don't remember it, but I don't discount the idea that my mind wandered.

Edited December 2, 2018 by MaryPatShelby

[walnutqueen]

10 minutes ago, MaryPatShelby said:

Agreed, though maybe some spoilers have been hidden since this ep aired.  There was one comment that confused me though - about John asking the surgery patient to rate the level of her pain.  Was that in the show or somewhere else?  I don't remember it, but I don't discount the idea that my mind wandered.

Some spoilers were tagged after the fact.  And yes, the pain level scene was in the episode - it showed that patient in agony afterwards.

[Starlight925]

I apologize for a spoiler I had posted, which was removed by the mods.

I had meant to put it in the "Podcast" thread.  So sorry!  Won't happen again!

This is not a spoiler, lol:  As for John asking the patient to rate her level of pain.....one thing the show isn't making super clear is the timeline.  There are "current stories", and there are flashbacks.  That particular scene is a flashback.

I wish they'd put "current" and "x amount of years ago" on the screen, so we could see what is actually happening at the time of the story, vs. the past.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 11/25/2018 at 9:33 PM, Mint Julep said:

The comparison to Vicki and Brooks of RHOC is pretty spot on.  Vicki even sees herself as Debra, the naive, successful business woman with several failed marriages and so desperate for love she ignores all red flags. Now waiting to see if John fakes cancer.

Vicki's take:

[MaryPatShelby]

12 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

Some spoilers were tagged after the fact.  And yes, the pain level scene was in the episode - it showed that patient in agony afterwards.

Ok, thanks.  I remember the agony scene but thought it had been in the previews for next week, but I guess not.  

[princelina]

On 11/27/2018 at 1:35 PM, red12 said:

Does anyone know the which came first? Do the daughters hate all their mom's boyfriends because the girls are spoiled or do they hate them because they were raised by a needy, passive mom with terrible taste in men?

I think they are just tired of her crap with men.  And we have already seen that they come second to the man of the week/month.

On 11/27/2018 at 2:42 PM, Chaos Theory said:

Anyway...I can see a very single Debra liking her daughter living with her even with  a shrink being necessary and it working ....until a man comes into the picture.  Men ruin everything.

Women who put strange men ahead of their friends and family members sometimes ruin things all by themselves :)

On 11/28/2018 at 12:17 AM, Door County Cherry said:

Their dislike could just be because of who they are. But after seeing more of how naive Debra was, I also wonder if Ronnie and Terra just had enough of their mother's love life.  I think back to my younger years when I would listen to friends share their relationship woes with me and I'd quickly get fed up with them sharing why their relationship wasn't working/making them miserable but refusing to change anything. And that was just typical young adult stuff.  I can't imagine how I'd react to seeing my mother have four marriages, many of which sounded bad according to what Debra said.  

I definitely think Debra's bad choice in men fueled the daughters' attitudes. 

You beat me to it - my sentiments exactly!

I don't know anything about this story, but I was looking for something to replace You on Sunday nights and this fills the bill perfectly!

[Eliot]

On 11/27/2018 at 11:18 AM, Chaos Theory said:

I related to both which is why this show is going to really work for me.  I understand the deep bottomless pit of loneliness that will allow you to overlook obvious warning signs buuuuuut I also understand the frustration of those around you who see every single one of those warning signs but still manage to come off as the bad guy getting In the way of true love.

There's a great book called "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker that explains in great detail how women consciously ignore red flags and warning signs and end up in horrible abusive relationships as a result (I think it should be required reading for everyone of dating age). Having listened to the podcast and watched the show, I see many of those same traits in Debra--the constant second-guessing of her instincts, the pressure to "give him a chance," the overwhelming desire to just believe him.

But, I agree, it gets to a point where it just becomes dumb to ignore everyone around you who sees things more clearly, especially when you have a history of making bad decisions.

[Alonzo Mosely FBI]

I  listened to the podcast and idk how you do this show without the actual voices of the mom and the younger daughter. Their voices were cultish and on cloud 9. 100 x more over the top than the show. You have to listen just for that ! 

Also, the grandma ? She looks like a bad SNL Skit reject , like the actress is 35 made up to look 85. It is weird. Dana Carver wasn’t more believable as the church lady ad an old lady. Very weird. 

[Starlight925]

1 hour ago, Alonzo Mosely FBI said:

Also, the grandma ? She looks like a bad SNL Skit reject , like the actress is 35 made up to look 85. It is weird. Dana Carver wasn’t more believable as the church lady ad an old lady. Very weird. 

Jean Smart, who is playing Debra's mom, is 67 in real life.  So her costume isn't really that much of a stretch.

As for the church lady aspect, you're absolutely right!  Jean Smart is playing the mom perfectly, as she was an extreme church-goer, polyester pants and ugly Christmas sweaters and all.

[Alonzo Mosely FBI]

16 hours ago, Sterling said:

Jean Smart, who is playing Debra's mom, is 67 in real life.  So her costume isn't really that much of a stretch.

As for the church lady aspect, you're absolutely right!  Jean Smart is playing the mom perfectly, as she was an extreme church-goer, polyester pants and ugly Christmas sweaters and all.

I think her makeup and get up is so over the top and very overdone and fake. Cheapens the whole series. I am believing everyone else acting but she is awful and overdone. Man is she a sour note. And Jean Smart is great so what a bummer. 

[athousandclowns]

On November 28, 2018 at 7:47 AM, Kdawg82 said:

I recall having read how anwsthesiologists are pretty notorious for "getting high on their own supply" so to speak. That part doesnt shock me and no offense to anesthesiologists bc during my 2nd cesarean , he was my favorite guy in the room. A young Armenian guy, holding my hand and comforting me as my husband was with our new baby in nursery and they tried to get me sewn up as I lost a lot of blood. But I digress. 

I think when John explained away his poor finances, Debra was willing to go along with it. Why? Maybe she was stuck paying alimony to a prior husband so she comiserated. Also in order to vindicate the object of your affection, you have to believe that he was wronged by prior wife.  That's got to be the psychology here. People are divorced for many reasons. But someone like Debra would easily be swayed to believe john was wronged bc SHE needed to believe it.

Many years ago they were  thought of by other doctors "less than" so I would see a visit at 10pm by an athelogist to a surgery patient the night before a morning surgery  and smell  alcohol . I pretty much believe everyone knows now  they are the most important doctor in the operating room. Scrubs are pretty much seen outside the hospital is a nurse or respitory therapist or even central supply. That's the way it was backin the day anyway. 

She  really is as dumb as a box of rocks to think a doctor would not have money or clothes because he was with Doctors Without Borders. He never picked up a dinner check ? 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Whew Chile, the STUPID is Def-Con levels with Debra.

[princelina]

On 12/3/2018 at 9:36 PM, Sterling said:

Jean Smart, who is playing Debra's mom, is 67 in real life.  So her costume isn't really that much of a stretch.

Wow - 67?  I was young when Designing Women was on and I guess I just think of myself as "their age" (at least Charlene and Mary Jo - the Sugarbaker sisters seemed older even then :) but I was shocked to see Jean Smart decked out as Grandma in this series.  And am more shocked to hear that she is 67 in real life!!!  (My own mom is 74 and I am 51 :)

[Starlight925]

7 hours ago, princelina said:

Wow - 67?  I was young when Designing Women was on and I guess I just think of myself as "their age" (at least Charlene and Mary Jo - the Sugarbaker sisters seemed older even then :) but I was shocked to see Jean Smart decked out as Grandma in this series.  And am more shocked to hear that she is 67 in real life!!!  (My own mom is 74 and I am 51 :)

I know, right?  I actually looked it up, as I, too, thought she was "my age", lol.....I'm 56, and adored her on DW.

[lezlers]

On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 8:27 AM, Empress1 said:

And does she have to marry everyone she dates?

The part that really got me is she is literally in therapy with her daughters due to her horrible decision making when it comes to men and yet she STILL continues to engage in the same goddamn behavior.  I listened to the podcast and loathed Debra.  Like, REALLY loathed her, same with the show.  She's awful.

[CruiseDiva]

4 hours ago, lezlers said:

The part that really got me is she is literally in therapy with her daughters due to her horrible decision making when it comes to men and yet she STILL continues to engage in the same goddamn behavior.  I listened to the podcast and loathed Debra.  Like, REALLY loathed her, same with the show.  She's awful.

What pissed me off was that the therapist advised her to "set boundaries" with her daughters. In effect, she advised Debra to shove her daughters out of her life in favor of her slimy husband.

I don't loathe Debra, but it's difficult to have any sympathy for her. Even though the daughters are clearly spoiled brats, I feel sympathetic toward them. They seem to have more common sense than their mother.

[lezlers]

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 12:36 PM, Empress1 said:

Not if he were Black, IMO. (When that story went viral I thought "Is that the same one from before?" because there was another story about a passenger in distress, a Black woman doctor who tried to help, and the flight attendants didn't believe her.) I think a Black male doctor would have gotten the same response, and a white female doctor would have been told "right this way."

I think it's a combination of both. I do think that John had figured out, probably in large part because of the way the world tends to treat white men who are average height or taller, reasonably fit (especially as you get to be over a certain age) and good-looking and can present themselves reasonably well (cargo shorts notwithstanding, heh), that he could use that to get what he wants. He has to be able to convince people that he's a wealthy doctor; that's relatively easy for someone like him to do if he's wearing scrubs.

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I think he'd have had a harder time convincing people he was, say, a banker because he quite literally didn't have the clothes to look the part - which he probably knew, hence the scrubs/doctor lie. 

I also think Debra was just not good at her personal life - it's not a coincidence that she has four ex-husbands. (John probably thought "Gold!" when she told him that.) I remember reading a story about Scientology, and in it a woman who was NOT a Scientologist talked about how she worked near a Church of Scientology and had to walk by it every day. And she said on the days where she was feeling good, walking tall, can't tell me nothin', nobody from the church tried to talk to her. On days where she was upset, sad, whatever, and that showed on her face and in her comportment, they would approach her and try to talk to her about changing her life. I think people who want to take advantage of people pick people who are easy to take advantage of, and that's not everyone.

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Also, she saw her sister murdered by an abusive husband and her mother rally to THE HUSBAND'S side and get him a lenient sentence; the DA said he'd never seen a family throw a victim under the bus like that. So I think on some level, she probably internalized prioritizing men AND there was a history of abuse in the family.

Speaking to your last spoiler box: her mother is legit crazy.  I could not BELIEVE that.  It made Debra's actions much more understandable (although I still think she's a terrible mother.)

[lezlers]

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 8:51 AM, walnutqueen said:

I agree - the level of spoilers in the episode thread is unacceptable (and inconsiderate).  Even though I've seen the Dateline (?) episode about this, I have not listened to the podcast.  I try to stay unspoiled for all the shows I watch, but unfortunately, once you've read a spoiler, you cannot unsee it.  

I think there should be two threads like in the Outlander forum.  One for spoilers and one without.  It's really hard to discuss the show without spoilers if you know the story (which, most people do.)

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, lezlers said:

I think there should be two threads like in the Outlander forum.  One for spoilers and one without.  It's really hard to discuss the show without spoilers if you know the story (which, most people do.)

There is a spoilers thread. 

I'm not sure if "most" people know about the story but there are some of us who never saw the Dateline story and never heard the podcast.    

[Door County Cherry]

There is both a spoiler thread/real person thread and spoiler tags for any in topic discussion of what we know from other venues. 

Report any posts that violate those rules.  Let's return to discussion of the episode. 

If you have any questions,  please PM one of the mods.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

11 hours ago, CruiseDiva said:

I don't loathe Debra, but it's difficult to have any sympathy for her. Even though the daughters are clearly spoiled brats, I feel sympathetic toward them. They seem to have more common sense than their mother.

This is often the case with children whose parents make bad decisions. Most people either emulate their parents' choices or make a conscious effort to do the exact opposite. Since Debra has been married four times already, I'm sure that Veronica and Terra have watched her make bad relationship choices their entire lives and are therefore (1) tired of it and (2) good at recognizing when she's dating someone sketchy again.

[noveltylibrary]

On 11/26/2018 at 4:37 PM, Barb23 said:

I guess this  shows some people lose all their sense of reality when falling for a person quickly & marrying on a whim.

My mother has a good widowed 80 something friend who shocked her family & friends by getting married to a man who lived in her retirement community after not knowing him for long.  He was in bad health & think he died not long after they married.  Her friend could never give a good answer to why she remarried at her age. The only thing she could come up with it was cheaper for them to live in one apartment than two. I guessed they believed in marriage  vs living together even at their age. It was a shame,  she moved into his apartment which wasn't nearly as nice as hers.

I dunno, I find that kind of romantic.  I always picture myself finally finding true love in my 80s in a nursing home.   Love this show, and love Connie, only knew her from AHS.  I especially love that she is a naturally aging beauty, how refreshing.  What is the podcast everyone is talking about?

[noveltylibrary]

On 11/27/2018 at 7:45 AM, Chaos Theory said:

I can already see both daughters are going to get hate posted on this board.   I honestly thought that they were genuinely worried about their mom but just acted like  kids do when confronted with their parents sex life.  Plus Debra was lying to them and being manipulated.  I am betting they are going to be treated like worse villians on boards like this because they are bitchy then the guy who is a con man.

I like them!  And remember their loony irresponsible mother has dragged them through countless relationships/husbands.  They should be acting crazy!

[noveltylibrary]

On 11/27/2018 at 2:47 PM, Neurochick said:

I am going to just call it.  Debra would have NEVER bothered with John had he not been handsome (at least to her). 

Of course!  It's like Albert Brooks' line in Broadcast News  "No one invites a *bad* looking idiot to their bedroom."