Loathesome!: Characters We Hate

[truthaboutluv]

The reaction to this season of The Crown is truly amusing to me. Interestingly, I read many think pieces for the first two seasons of the show where in those instances, the writers were accusing Peter Morgan of being a Royalist and noting how in fact, in their opinion, he went soft in the portrayal of the Royals. So it was fine when Season 2 showed Charles as a delicate, sensitive young boy being all but emotionally bullied by his dick of a father.

And it was fine in Season 3 when he was still a mostly sensitive, intelligent young man coming into his own and trying to embrace his destiny. I certainly didn't see much outrage when Season 2 depicted the Kennedys as pill popping, volatile, toxic mess. But Season 4 brings back to the forefront an affair and tumultuous relationship that anyone who lived through the 90s remembers splashed almost daily across tabloids and pearls are being clutched.

Because obviously many thought the two decades of well-placed PR had worked so well that everyone just got amnesia and the generation too young to have been born would never know of and hear about these sordid details. The bottom line here is, the BRF and their minions' faux outrage over this season of The Crown has only succeeded in drawing more eyeballs to it and conversation around it. 

[Spartan Girl]

You guys remember what a whiny annoying douchebag Declan was on Revenge, right?

[LilWharveyGal]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

You guys remember what a whiny annoying douchebag Declan was on Revenge, right?

OMG, at first I thought you meant Nolan and we were going to have to have words. Then I realized my brain has been protecting me by banishing all memories of Declan.

[Spartan Girl]

41 minutes ago, LilWharveyGal said:

OMG, at first I thought you meant Nolan and we were going to have to have words. Then I realized my brain has been protecting me by banishing all memories of Declan.

Oh God no, I loved Nolan.

[DearEvette]

I decided to start re-watching choice episodes of Bones. I remember liking it and the characters, for the most part.  But I find on this re-watch I am hearilty despising Booth.  He is a narrow minded, condescending jerk asshole.  On the regular. I wonder how I never saw it before? Maybe I have generally liked David Boreanaz, but I yikes, just can't stand this character. 

[Ambrosefolly]

I hate Andrew from Buffy. They did a real shit job of redeeming. I ended up really hating souled!Spike on Buffy, season 7. (Weirdly, I really liked him on the final season of Angel).

eta. I finally watched Damaged from Angel, and Andrew totally ruined the episode (though for a Spike-heavy episode, it finally showed a souled!Spike feeling some remorse for all the shit he did as demon!Spike). Team Angel does all the work capturing Dana, with Spike and Angel potentially getting staked by an insane Slayer, then that fucking prick shows up with a team of Slayers (which would have been useful when subduing Dana) and gives a big speech about how the Scobies can't trust Angel anymore. But it is okay because Spike admires how Andrew double crossed him. Fuck him. I would have had anyone, even Kennedy, take the place of Andrew. Nor do I believe all those girls would be falling in line with Andrew, no matter how much Giles "trusts" him.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Ambrosefolly

[proserpina65]

Rusty on Major Crimes - why is he in every goddamned episode?  He was a vaguely interesting character stretched out into insufferability.

[roamyn]

F*g Metatron!  There have been some evil characters on Supernatural , but I doubt any more loathed worse than Metatron (maybe Sam’s ‘friend’ Brady).  IMO it’s because of the great character actor Curtis Armstrong.

Edited January 28, 2021 by roamyn

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Rusty on Major Crimes - why is he in every goddamned episode?  He was a vaguely interesting character stretched out into insufferability.

I hated him.

[FurryFury]

On 1/27/2021 at 6:53 AM, Ambrosefolly said:

I hate Andrew from Buffy. They did a real shit job of redeeming.

It really should have been Johnathan. I've always had a soft spot for him. I even loved Superstar.

On 1/27/2021 at 6:53 AM, Ambrosefolly said:

I ended up really hating souled!Spike on Buffy, season 7. (Weirdly, I really liked him on the final season of Angel).

Spike worked perfectly on Angel (especially with Angel himself—that was a bromance for the ages). Actually, he was perfect before the chip thing on Buffy as well. He's just not a character who should have ever been defanged, and being chipped and (especially) in love with Buffy made a number on him. The main love interest role is quite restricting, and shoehorning a former villain into it requires a lot of work and skill. I don't think Noxon, Espenson and co. were up to par (although, judging by Once Upon A Time, Espenson has a thing for villain romances with abusive undertones).

[Mabinogia]

8 hours ago, FurryFury said:

Actually, he was perfect before the chip thing on Buffy as well. He's just not a character who should have ever been defanged, and being chipped and (especially) in love with Buffy made a number on him.

It is, for me, a case of, what works in fanfic/my imagination, doesn't really work on the show itself. I was always a Buffy/Spike girl but I hated how it played out on the show. Spike became a lot less interesting when they defanged/chipped him. Don't even get me started on Spike as Dawn's babysitter. UGH!!!!!

[MargeGunderson]

Jimmy McNulty on The Wire. Such an asshole who only thinks of himself. I watch The Wire in spite of him. 

[DearEvette]

5 hours ago, MargeGunderson said:

Jimmy McNulty on The Wire. Such an asshole who only thinks of himself. I watch The Wire in spite of him. 

The Wire is a treasure trove of great quotes.  But this reminds me of on of my favorite speeches given by Rawls (who absolutely hates McNulty) to McNulty who is awash in guilt after a cop gets shot:

Quote

You, McNulty, are a gaping asshole. We both know this. Fuck if everybody in CID doesn't know it. But fuck if I'm gonna stand here and say you did a single fucking thing to get a police shot. You did not do this, you fucking hear me? This is not on you. [McNulty shakes his head disagreeing] No it isn't, asshole. Believe it or not, everything isn't about you.

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by DearEvette

[ifionlyknew]

14 hours ago, MargeGunderson said:

Jimmy McNulty on The Wire. Such an asshole who only thinks of himself. I watch The Wire in spite of him. 

Dominic West excels at playing assholes.  His character on the Affair Noah Solloway was also an asshole.

[MargeGunderson]

10 hours ago, DearEvette said:

The Wire is a treasure trove of great quotes.  But this reminds me of on of my favorite speeches given by Rawls (who absolutely hates McNulty) to McNulty who is awash in guilt after a cop gets shot:

 

That speech was the only time I ever agreed with Rawls. I guess Jimmy McNulty gave me one thing - whenever my cats do something bad, we pretend that they say “what the fuck did I do?” to protest their innocence. It’s cuter from them than a grown-ass man baby.

[Danny Franks]

16 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

Dominic West excels at playing assholes.  His character on the Affair Noah Solloway was also an asshole.

He's incredibly good as the vapid, entitled arsehole in The Hour, a BBC drama about the birth of television news in the 1950s. 

West plays the philandering, charismatic rich boy who is picked as the news anchor, against Romola Garai's extremely competent producer (who he naturally sleeps with before she realises just what a tool he is) and Ben Whishaw's razor sharp journalist who wanted the job West's character trips into.

[proserpina65]

On 2/1/2021 at 6:21 PM, MargeGunderson said:

Jimmy McNulty on The Wire. Such an asshole who only thinks of himself. I watch The Wire in spite of him. 

I thought McNulty was a great character, but a lousy person.  Interesting to watch, but I wouldn't want to know him in real life.

[BlackberryJam]

Is there any space show character as loathsome as Marco Inaros or is it just that Marco’s smug guyliner and yapping cakehole are at the forefront of my brain?

[MargeGunderson]

57 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I thought McNulty was a great character, but a lousy person.  Interesting to watch, but I wouldn't want to know him in real life.

He is a character I love to hate! There wouldn’t be The Wire without him, but yeah, he would be a nightmare in real life.

[ifionlyknew]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

I thought McNulty was a great character, but a lousy person.  Interesting to watch, but I wouldn't want to know him in real life.

 

46 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

He is a character I love to hate! There wouldn’t be The Wire without him, but yeah, he would be a nightmare in real life.

The Wire was filled with characters that you could love to hate and hate to love.  The cops weren't all good guys and the bad guys weren't all bad guys.  That being said I hated Namond's mother. She was the worst.

[praeceptrix]

1 hour ago, ifionlyknew said:

 

The Wire was filled with characters that you could love to hate and hate to love.  The cops weren't all good guys and the bad guys weren't all bad guys.  That being said I hated Namond's mother. She was the worst.

De'Londa was awful, but I think the one I hated the most was Brianna Barksdale. Michael Hyatt did an amazing job with the role.

[ifionlyknew]

1 minute ago, praeceptrix said:

De'Londa was awful, but I think the one I hated the most was Brianna Barksdale. Michael Hyatt did an amazing job with the role.

I was going to edit my post to mention her as well.   Did she even care that her son was dead?

[praeceptrix]

4 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

I was going to edit my post to mention her as well.   Did she even care that her son was dead?

I doubt it. I suspect her feelings were more along the lines of what Avon and Stringer felt, a little sad about the other's betrayal/impending murder, but believing it inevitable.

Edited February 4, 2021 by praeceptrix

[ifionlyknew]

1 minute ago, praeceptrix said:

I doubt it. I suspect her feelings were more along the lines of what Avon and Stringer felt, a little sad but believing it inevitable.

She was more worried about her lifestyle staying the same.

[DearEvette]

19 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

I was going to edit my post to mention her as well.   Did she even care that her son was dead?

Brianna very much cared about D'Angelo.  But she was old skool.  Her thought was the health of the organization and family overall.  Also she was Avon's consigliere.  It wasn't just about the money, for her, the illegal business was as important an enterprise as any legitimate legal business where the people at the top are responsible for the livelihood of their workers.  And after all that it was the legacy from her father.  Take the drug dealing aspect out of it, she was like any CEO.  And part of their life was that if it was expedient then one person had to go to jail for the good of the operation.  And this time it just happened to be her son.

D'Angelo being murdered in prison would have been simply something that came with the territory.  They all knew the code.  But when McNulty let her know that D'angelo was murdered and it might have been at Avon and Springer's orders, she got real salty at Avon and Springer and smartly, McNulty knew his dropping the bomb that Avon and Stringer were responsible for D'Angelo's murder would sow dissension in the ranks because Brianna loved her son.

So I actually didn't hate Brianna.  I loved her steely-eyed pragmatism.  And @praeceptrix is correct, Michael Hyatt portrayed her so well.

Now, Delonda, tho, that bitch could die! I hated her so hard.  LOL.

Edited February 4, 2021 by DearEvette

[MargeGunderson]

I was so happy when Wee Bey put Delonda in her place, and made her let Namond go. She was, to put it politely, a real piece of work 

[ctlady]

Jason Hayes on SEALTeam.  It's all about HIM.  No one can run Bravo Team without HIM.  He comes off so smug and conceited as if he's the be all and end all of SEALTeam leaders.  He put off getting knee surgery because he wouldn't be able to deploy due to rehab.  Keeps saying "I'm fine, I'm fine after an explosion left him with PTSD, but rips a brother a new one for keeping his shoulder injury a secret.  Mr. Ctlady and I love the show and continue to watch, but must suffer bursts of me shouting at the tv for Jason to SHUT.UP!

[Spartan Girl]

Hayward on WandaVision is the worst. That is all.

[Avabelle]

On 2/11/2021 at 7:59 PM, ctlady said:

Jason Hayes on SEALTeam.  It's all about HIM.  No one can run Bravo Team without HIM.  He comes off so smug and conceited as if he's the be all and end all of SEALTeam leaders.  He put off getting knee surgery because he wouldn't be able to deploy due to rehab.  Keeps saying "I'm fine, I'm fine after an explosion left him with PTSD, but rips a brother a new one for keeping his shoulder injury a secret.  Mr. Ctlady and I love the show and continue to watch, but must suffer bursts of me shouting at the tv for Jason to SHUT.UP!

This x 10000! Surely a team leader who is that emotional and high strung is a bad idea. I start every episode with baited breath to see what kind of mood he’s in as it sets the tone for next 40 minutes. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Since the original One Day at a Time returned on Antenna TV, I've been watching it, as I haven't watched it since the first time it was on the air in syndication.

One, I never realized that this was also developed by Norman Lear!

Two, it really doesn't hold up for me. I remember looking forward to this every week as a kid, but I'm finding myself fast forwarding or just deleting. A lot. But the one character I never liked, and still don't, and it's so much more worse, watching as an adult, is Schneider.

I mean, the way he just lets himself into Ann's apartment with his passkey, gets into her business, and Julie and Barbara's, is just revolting. Not to mention his coming on to her in the first season. It's just gross. The worst part is, they all, Ann, Julie, Barbara--LET HIM. UGH.

[Blergh]

On 2/19/2021 at 3:04 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Since the original One Day at a Time returned on Antenna TV, I've been watching it, as I haven't watched it since the first time it was on the air in syndication.

One, I never realized that this was also developed by Norman Lear!

Two, it really doesn't hold up for me. I remember looking forward to this every week as a kid, but I'm finding myself fast forwarding or just deleting. A lot. But the one character I never liked, and still don't, and it's so much more worse, watching as an adult, is Schneider.

I mean, the way he just lets himself into Ann's apartment with his passkey, gets into her business, and Julie and Barbara's, is just revolting. Not to mention his coming on to her in the first season. It's just gross. The worst part is, they all, Ann, Julie, Barbara--LET HIM. UGH.

You're right! And here Ann was a newly single woman trying to provide for herself and her two teen daughters- the LAST thing she needed was to have anyone gawk at her (and them) as well as try to ingratiate himself to her. Even considering the 1970's, what was Norman Lear thinking having Schneider be a permanent fixture rather than a one-shot character whom Ann would have called his bosses on and gotten FIRED? Yes, I know that may not have been as plausible or realistic for that time, but surely it would have been cathartic for the viewers who liked and/or identified with Ann! And, if they had to have a gag-a-minute character in the mix, surely they could have had Schneider have been written as an in-law or cousin in the building who didn't have a passkey but just would ask to be let in- only to be thrown out by Ann,etc. when he got too annoying. The late Pat Harrington COULD have done a very good job with that kind of character (and it's too bad  his career post ODAAT was rather spotty thereafter- perhaps the casting folks also hated Schneider and couldn't see beyond that despite Mr. Harrington's talent and previous credentials). 

[katie9918]

Wanda Maximoff. And she keeps getting excuses for her horrifying behavior.

[Danny Franks]

Okay, Cameron Tucker from Modern Family. Back when the show started and I watched the first couple of seasons, he was a favourite of mine. He was funny, smart, played into gay stereotypes in knowing ways but had some decent complexity. Along the way he turned into a completely toxic, narcissistic monster who emotionally abuses everyone around him just to soothe his own incredibly over-sensitive and self-important manchild self.

I'm watching an episode now where a misunderstanding leads Cam and Mitchell's friends to think they've split up, and Mitchell is unhappy that all of them are worried about Cam but none ask him how he is. Well, it turns out that this is because once, years ago, Cam pretended he and Mitchell had split up and told all their friends, just so he could gauge the levels of sympathy that he'd get and which of their friends would take his side over Mitchell's. Of course, because Mitchell didn't know about that lie, he just carried on as normal, leading said friends to think he was cold and completely fine with the 'break up.'

This is not even the worst thing he's done. Probably not in the top ten of worst things he's done. No one can do anything that might show him up, no one can bruise his feelings, even by accident, without him freaking out and sending them into a huge guilt trip.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Danny Franks

[Blergh]

21 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Okay, Cameron Tucker from Modern Family. Back when the show started and I watched the first couple of seasons, he was a favourite of mine. He was funny, smart, played into gay stereotypes in knowing ways but had some decent complexity. Along the way he turned into a completely toxic, narcissistic monster who emotionally abuses everyone around him just to soothe his own incredibly over-sensitive and self-important manchild self.

I'm watching an episode now where a misunderstanding leads Cam and Mitchell's friends to think they've split up, and Mitchell is unhappy that all of them are worried about Cam but none ask him how he is. Well, it turns out that this is because once, years ago, Cam pretended he and Mitchell had split up and told all their friends, just so he could gauge the levels of sympathy that he'd get and which of their friends would take his side over Mitchell's. Of course, because Mitchell didn't know about that lie, he just carried on as normal, leading said friends to think he was cold and completely fine with the 'break up.'

This is not even the worst thing he's done. Probably not in the top ten of worst things he's done. No one can do anything that might show him up, no one can bruise his feelings, even by accident, without him freaking out and sending them into a huge guilt trip.

Agree- with you re all the above!

 

But let's not also overlook the fact that once Lily got too old for Cam to treat like his own personal Barbie doll, he joined Mitch in treating her like a houseplant! That I think was worse than his manipulations of the adults (and I also blame Mitch for that tude). It's things like that that got me to quit the show several years before it ended due to trashing all the characters. 

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, Blergh said:

Agree- with you re all the above!

 

But let's not also overlook the fact that once Lily got too old for Cam to treat like his own personal Barbie doll, he joined Mitch in treating her like a houseplant! That I think was worse than his manipulations of the adults (and I also blame Mitch for that tude). It's things like that that got me to quit the show several years before it ended due to trashing all the characters. 

The writing actually leans in to their garbage parenting and plays it as funny. In the later seasons there are bits where they're surprised that Lily is considered intelligent by her school, where they're stunned that she's popular with her classmates, that she somehow has a credit card her dads don't know about. There's even a 'joke' where she's heading to the front door in a cheerleading outfit and they tell her she can't go out wearing that revealing costume. She points out that she actually is a cheerleader and this is her official school cheerleading uniform. Cam and Mitch take a moment to reflect that they didn't know she was a cheerleader and probably should have, before carrying on with their self-absorbed selves.

I don't want to get too serious about a silly sitcom, but this is just the sort of stuff that bigots use to claim that gay couples shouldn't be allowed to have kids - That they're not "maternal" or caring enough, that they aren't equipped to be parents, that they're doing it just to have a nice accessory rather than raise a child. All that is exactly how Cam and Mitch turned out to be, as soon as Lily was no longer a cute little baby.

Mitchell at least has the saving grace of good scenes with Claire and Jay, where he gets to play a convincing younger brother and a son still striving for his dad's approval. Cam has nothing redeeming about him at all, and his family are even worse than he is, when they appear - his sister, Pam Tucker, is one of the worst characters to ever appear in a show I've watched.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Danny Franks

[SmithW6079]

On 11/4/2020 at 1:58 PM, topanga said:

I've started a rewatch of Schitt's Creek, and I'm reminded how much I love the show--and hate Roland Schitt. From the moment he appeared on my screen, I've found him unfunny, annoying, and a waste of TV time. During this rewatch, I fast-forward almost every scene he's in. I don't know if it's the actor or the writing. The fact that a hick mayor exists and interacts with the Roses is fine. But watching and listening to Roland is a painful experience for me.  Even some of the "sillier" side characters--Twyla, Jocelyn, Bob, or Ray, for example, are tolerable in small doses. But I want no doses of Roland. 

To be fair, "unfunny, annoying, and a waste of TV time" is every Chris Elliott character ever. He's a no-talent jackass who would have never had a career if not for his father.

On 11/21/2020 at 4:25 PM, DrSpaceman73 said:

I hate Gail on letterkenney. She's the only character on there I don't like.  Her choreiform movements and weird constant sexual advances.      Hate her

She's a disgusting sexual predator. If she were a man, she'd be in jail or "cancelled."

Speaking of asshole doctors, I grew to hate Dr. Cox on "Scrubs." He was such a dick to everyone and had almost no redeeming qualities (except the episode with Brendan Fraser, which is still a gut-wrenching tearjerker).

I'm also hating the sheriff on "Resident Alien." I don't think he's "quirky"; he's an asshole, especially to the deputy, who's far smarter than he is. The introduction of an ailing father did nothing to softer my view of him. 

[Mittengirl]

6 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

On 11/4/2020 at 1:58 PM, topanga said:

 

To be fair, "unfunny, annoying, and a waste of TV time" is every Chris Elliott character ever. He's a no-talent jackass who would have never had a career if not for his father.

This is so very true.  I can’t watch any episode of Everybody Loves Raymond that he is on.  I just can’t fathom how anyone could find him funny.  Who is his father?

[SmithW6079]

6 minutes ago, Mittengirl said:

This is so very true.  I can’t watch any episode of Everybody Loves Raymond that he is on.  I just can’t fathom how anyone could find him funny.  Who is his father?

Bob Elliott, one half of the  comedy duo Bob and Ray.

Bob and Ray

[Macbeth]

On 2/4/2021 at 12:43 PM, BlackberryJam said:

Is there any space show character as loathsome as Marco Inaros or is it just that Marco’s smug guyliner and yapping cakehole are at the forefront of my brain?

I love the Expase, but I haven't finished the latest season because of him.

I read the books, I know what's coming, but its's just hard to see on screen.

[Anduin]

45 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I love the Expase, but I haven't finished the latest season because of him.

I read the books, I know what's coming, but its's just hard to see on screen.

I gave up on the books with Cibola Burn. The villain was just too good. I hated him too much to continue.

IMO, there are three main strains of antagonists. "Oh, whatever, you're just a foil for the heroes." Thor the Dark World comes to mind. Then there's "I can't wait to see the heroes thwart your evil schemes." This is the sweet spot. Thanos is a recent example. Then "I need you to go away. Right now. Do not appear in my presence again." This is a strength of the Expanse books. Possibly also a weakness.

[Zella]

2 hours ago, Anduin said:

I gave up on the books with Cibola Burn. The villain was just too good. I hated him too much to continue.

IMO, there are three main strains of antagonists. "Oh, whatever, you're just a foil for the heroes." Thor the Dark World comes to mind. Then there's "I can't wait to see the heroes thwart your evil schemes." This is the sweet spot. Thanos is a recent example. Then "I need you to go away. Right now. Do not appear in my presence again." This is a strength of the Expanse books. Possibly also a weakness.

I might be kind of a weirdo (probably am), but I almost always root for the bad guy, so for me, there would be a fourth tier of "villain I wish had prevailed." I blame my childhood love of Skeletor and Curly Bill Brocius in Tombstone, but one of my criteria for grading movies and TV as excellent is if they actually succeed in making me like the hero more. For me to actively dislike bad guy, he either has to be a really bad guy or they have to be trying too hard to make him sympathetic and non-villainy. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Zella

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I might be kind of a weirdo (probably am), but I almost always root for the bad guy, so for me, there would be a fourth tier of "villain I wish had prevailed." I blame my childhood love of Skeletor and Curly Bill Brocius in Tombstone, but one of my criteria for grading movies and TV as excellent is if they actually succeed in making me like the hero more. For me to actively dislike bad guy, he either has to be a really bad guy or they have to be trying too hard to make him sympathetic and non-villainy. 

I don't think I've ever rooted for the villain, but it's fair enough that you and others do.

[Blergh]

20 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

 

I don't want to get too serious about a silly sitcom, but this is just the sort of stuff that bigots use to claim that gay couples shouldn't be allowed to have kids - That they're not "maternal" or caring enough, that they aren't equipped to be parents, that they're doing it just to have a nice accessory rather than raise a child. All that is exactly how Cam and Mitch turned out to be, as soon as Lily was no longer a cute little baby.

 

Yeah, and look how they transformed Gloria from a sympathetic single mother who'd struggled honestly to provide for her growing son then was gratefully wed to Jay to retrotrashing her to having been a conniving golddigger and unreformed criminal - just the sort of thing bigots like to claim about Hispanics. BOOO!!!!

 

Oh, sorry, but  them making Mitch and Cam be aware of their parental neglect  (but doing nothing to attempt to change for the better) didn't make it funny, IMO. It's one of those 'yeah, but YOU don't have to live with it' deals. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Blergh

[ifionlyknew]

20 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

The writing actually leans in to their garbage parenting and plays it as funny.

It wasn't just their parenting.  Claire and Phil loved their kids but there were plenty of times I side eyed their parenting.  Gloria smothered Manny.  Jay even when Mitchell was an adult sometimes failed him as a dad.  But I agree Cam and to a lesser degree Mitchell were the worst.  And yes the show played it for laughs.  When the show was ending there were rumors there would be a spin off for Mitch and Cam and I was OMG no absolutely no.

I did a rewatch of the entire series last year and watching it from start to finish I realized I didn't like any of the characters. There was not one character I would have liked to have known in real life.  I have noticed that shows now seem to have more unlikable characters than likable characters.  I know writers always say and actors always say flawed characters are more fun to write/play but can you at least give the flawed characters some good qualities too.

[DrSpaceman73]

I couldn't stand cam.  He was the worst. He was a child, jealous of everyone and everything.   So petty.   

The ironic part of modern family was the writers tried to portray it as progressive with a gay couple (which it was, not arguing that). But at the same time there are no better examples of white privilege than the dunphys.   Mitch constantly out of work or changing jobs but money was never a real problem.  Money as a problem was never more than a joke I guess you could say, not a serious problem.  Claire gets a job and takes over her dad's company.  Hailey, college drop out and unwed pregnancy, but again not the problem. Still manages to somehow at the end move into claire and Mitch's place.  And there is no way in hell cam is going from a high school coach, (and oh, let's recall as well who started out as a substitute it seems with no teaching license, ends up as a principal or vice principal) to a head coach at a college with nothing in between on terms of coaching.  

Everything just falls into the laps of these people.  

[Shannon L.]

13 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

I have noticed that shows now seem to have more unlikable characters than likable characters.  I know writers always say and actors always say flawed characters are more fun to write/play but can you at least give the flawed characters some good qualities too.

I think it depends on the writing.  I loved the network seasons (only) of Arrested Development and none of them, except maybe Michael, who, of course had his flaws, and George Michael, were especially good people, but the humor worked, imo.   Modern Family made me laugh until the end, although not as much as it definitely declined in quality over the years, but I understand the points made here.  As I've noted in one of the other threads, I don't know why it is, that 9 times out of 10, when a ridiculous character (rude, silly, dumb) is proven to be popular, the writers tend to take them to the extreme (cruel, ridiculous, downright stupid).  The only shows I can think of right now that didn't do that were Designing Women and Family Ties.  I'm sure there are more examples, but I bet there aren't a lot.

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, ifionlyknew said:

It wasn't just their parenting.  Claire and Phil loved their kids but there were plenty of times I side eyed their parenting.  Gloria smothered Manny.  Jay even when Mitchell was an adult sometimes failed him as a dad.  But I agree Cam and to a lesser degree Mitchell were the worst.  And yes the show played it for laughs.  When the show was ending there were rumors there would be a spin off for Mitch and Cam and I was OMG no absolutely no.

Yeah, you couldn't pay me to watch a Mitch and Cam spinoff, with the two of them just bickering and lying and manipulating one another, just generally being an awful representation of relationships. Especially if it was set in Missouri (and don't even get me started on the absurdity of Cam wanting to go back and live there, and somehow becoming a college football head coach).

1 hour ago, ifionlyknew said:

I did a rewatch of the entire series last year and watching it from start to finish I realized I didn't like any of the characters. There was not one character I would have liked to have known in real life.  I have noticed that shows now seem to have more unlikable characters than likable characters.  I know writers always say and actors always say flawed characters are more fun to write/play but can you at least give the flawed characters some good qualities too.

I've been doing a rewatch too - or, more accurately, a first watch of seasons 5 to 11 - and I don't know if I'd say I didn't like any of the characters, but I certainly disliked a lot of them.

Phil and Jay are mostly fine, throughout the series, but that's probably due to Ty Burrell and Ed O'Neill being so capable and so good at working even with bad material. Luke was inoffensive and the sort of kid I'd have been friends with as a teenager. Hayley was mostly okay as a comedic character who I didn't take seriously.

Manny was just... ugh. The absolute fucking worst (apart from Cam). He was so gross, constantly objectifying women and then somehow a ladies man who could get a string of gorgeous girlfriends. And look, I don't think it's impossible for beautiful women to like dumpy, Shrek lookalike guys because personality makes up for a lot. But Manny's personality was trash. And his final incarnation as a conceited, arrogant and oblivious film student was perfect, if unintentionally so.

I absolutely despise the Last Christmas episode, in season 11, when Gloria and Manny are attacking Luke for getting with the girl who dumped Manny when he prematurely tried to propose to her in front of an audience of his family members. They're both so disgustingly over the top, with Gloria demanding Luke leave his own house so Manny feels more comfortable, then telling Manny he should be planning revenge. Manny makes up with Luke and claims he wants his ex to be happy, so if she's happy with Luke he'll be fine with it. Then he "helps" Luke compose a text message telling the girl the depths of his feelings, but deliberately sabotages it so the girl dumps Luke. That's the kicker of the episode. That's the punchline that we end on. Manny fucking over his friend (and step-nephew, I guess) despite claiming he was going to be noble and think of other people's feelings and Gloria thinks it's great. 

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

The ironic part of modern family was the writers tried to portray it as progressive with a gay couple (which it was, not arguing that). But at the same time there are no better examples of white privilege than the dunphys.   Mitch constantly out of work or changing jobs but money was never a real problem.  Money as a problem was never more than a joke I guess you could say, not a serious problem.  Claire gets a job and takes over her dad's company.  Hailey, college drop out and unwed pregnancy, but again not the problem. Still manages to somehow at the end move into claire and Mitch's place.  And there is no way in hell cam is going from a high school coach, (and oh, let's recall as well who started out as a substitute it seems with no teaching license, ends up as a principal or vice principal) to a head coach at a college with nothing in between on terms of coaching.  

Everything just falls into the laps of these people.  

They do make a bit of a thing out of Cam and Mitchell's finances when Mitchell quits his job and doesn't immediately get a new one. But Cam doesn't take it seriously and when they get a financial windfall he spends it on fur coats for himself and Lily. Which really sums up Cameron Tucker.

The Dunphys are always very secure but they do establish that Phil is good at his job, and a good provider for his family (not sure about the dumb, magic shop thing that went nowhere). And he is the kind of dad who always wants to look after his kids, even though they're adults. I know there's a feeling of "oh god, how are they still living at home? Why aren't they living their own lives?" with the Dunphy kids and I understand it to an extent but, if my dad had his way all three of his kids would have lived at home for a lot longer because he liked having us around. I see Phil as the same. Claire? Not so much.

The overarching family dynamic of Jay Pritchett being a self-made man who started as a very working class guy but built a successful company that allowed him to raise his kids in privilege, which in turn made them spoiled, entitled brats, is another unwittingly accurate portrayal of life for that class of people. I would guarantee that Manny will still be mooching off Jay when he's in his thirties, because he has never been taught the value of hard work or humility, thanks to his mother spoiling him rotten, telling him he can do anything and flying off the handle whenever he's criticised. So now he's a talentless, wannabe writer and director who will never get hired.

[DrSpaceman73]

7 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Yeah, you couldn't pay me to watch a Mitch and Cam spinoff, with the two of them just bickering and lying and manipulating one another, just generally being an awful representation of relationships. Especially if it was set in Missouri (and don't even get me started on the absurdity of Cam wanting to go back and live there, and somehow becoming a college football head coach).

I've been doing a rewatch too - or, more accurately, a first watch of seasons 5 to 11 - and I don't know if I'd say I didn't like any of the characters, but I certainly disliked a lot of them.

Phil and Jay are mostly fine, throughout the series, but that's probably due to Ty Burrell and Ed O'Neill being so capable and so good at working even with bad material. Luke was inoffensive and the sort of kid I'd have been friends with as a teenager. Hayley was mostly okay as a comedic character who I didn't take seriously.

Manny was just... ugh. The absolute fucking worst (apart from Cam). He was so gross, constantly objectifying women and then somehow a ladies man who could get a string of gorgeous girlfriends. And look, I don't think it's impossible for beautiful women to like dumpy, Shrek lookalike guys because personality makes up for a lot. But Manny's personality was trash. And his final incarnation as a conceited, arrogant and oblivious film student was perfect, if unintentionally so.

I absolutely despise the Last Christmas episode, in season 11, when Gloria and Manny are attacking Luke for getting with the girl who dumped Manny when he prematurely tried to propose to her in front of an audience of his family members. They're both so disgustingly over the top, with Gloria demanding Luke leave his own house so Manny feels more comfortable, then telling Manny he should be planning revenge. Manny makes up with Luke and claims he wants his ex to be happy, so if she's happy with Luke he'll be fine with it. Then he "helps" Luke compose a text message telling the girl the depths of his feelings, but deliberately sabotages it so the girl dumps Luke. That's the kicker of the episode. That's the punchline that we end on. Manny fucking over his friend (and step-nephew, I guess) despite claiming he was going to be noble and think of other people's feelings and Gloria thinks it's great. 

They do make a bit of a thing out of Cam and Mitchell's finances when Mitchell quits his job and doesn't immediately get a new one. But Cam doesn't take it seriously and when they get a financial windfall he spends it on fur coats for himself and Lily. Which really sums up Cameron Tucker.

The Dunphys are always very secure but they do establish that Phil is good at his job, and a good provider for his family (not sure about the dumb, magic shop thing that went nowhere). And he is the kind of dad who always wants to look after his kids, even though they're adults. I know there's a feeling of "oh god, how are they still living at home? Why aren't they living their own lives?" with the Dunphy kids and I understand it to an extent but, if my dad had his way all three of his kids would have lived at home for a lot longer because he liked having us around. I see Phil as the same. Claire? Not so much.

The overarching family dynamic of Jay Pritchett being a self-made man who started as a very working class guy but built a successful company that allowed him to raise his kids in privilege, which in turn made them spoiled, entitled brats, is another unwittingly accurate portrayal of life for that class of people. I would guarantee that Manny will still be mooching off Jay when he's in his thirties, because he has never been taught the value of hard work or humility, thanks to his mother spoiling him rotten, telling him he can do anything and flying off the handle whenever he's criticised. So now he's a talentless, wannabe writer and director who will never get hired.

Have you ever looked up the actual value of the house the dunphys live in?  It looks very middle class in appearance but in california it's worth over $2 million.  I know they say jay gave them the down payment and at the time they bought it would have been cheaper but still hard to swallow.   I know phil was a good realtor but they bought that house it seems way on in their marriage, it takes time to build a realtor career. 

But even more than the house, Phil buys a sports car one episode and within a day is trying to get rid of it.  And the magic shop you mention.  They just go out and buy a failing business and it's rarely brought up again.  

And yes totally agree about manny.  He will end up as some career student or the actor/writer who never has a real job and mooches off his parents, always wondering why people dont appreciate his pretentious work.  

[Danny Franks]

15 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Have you ever looked up the actual value of the house the dunphys live in?  It looks very middle class in appearance but in california it's worth over $2 million.  I know they say jay gave them the down payment and at the time they bought it would have been cheaper but still hard to swallow.   I know phil was a good realtor but they bought that house it seems way on in their marriage, it takes time to build a realtor career. 

But even more than the house, Phil buys a sports car one episode and within a day is trying to get rid of it.  And the magic shop you mention.  They just go out and buy a failing business and it's rarely brought up again.  

And yes totally agree about manny.  He will end up as some career student or the actor/writer who never has a real job and mooches off his parents, always wondering why people dont appreciate his pretentious work.  

I guess I don't really have a problem with the house. They never say when they bought it but I'd assume it was in the late 90s, which is when Alex and Luke would have been born - there's one episode where Claire and Phil reminisce about their first apartment when Haley was little - and I have no clue about property prices in California back then, although I'm sure it was still expensive. But all the houses Phil is shown to be selling are as nice or much nicer than theirs, so even if he only sells two or three houses a month he's probably on a seven figure income.

The money they spend is a much bigger issue for me - the Porsche, the magic shop, the amount of expensive trips they go on, the materialism of Phil's technology obsession or Cam and Gloria's clothes, buying Haley a new car for her twenty-first birthday etc.

They're not middle class, they're wealthy and Jay is legitimately rich. I don't know how the show was originally marketed but I always just thought of them as very well off, living lives that most people could only hope to attain.

 

[ifionlyknew]

I don't like young Sheldon Cooper. I liked him as an adult on BBT but as a kid on Young Sheldon I cannot stand him.  I find him the least likable in his family.   And the way they portray that show it does not look like the late 80's/early 90s. They might reference things from that time period but it does not look like that time period.   And can we please burn Mary's wardrobe.  When she was on BBT she had much better taste in clothes.