S03.E05: Toby

[CarolMK]

Well, we finally know where Randall and his family live. Alpine, NJ is in Bergen County, close to New York City. I remember in season one where we were all trying to figure out where William lived and now that we know it's Philadelphia, no wonder it took 2 hours on the bus back and forth to their house. 

I liked seeing Toby's backstory and hope he stays on his medication  and continues his therapy. I was a little surprised to find out Kate did get pregnant. 

I have to admit, I like seeing the kids as teens even though every story line has some sadness to it. They do seem believeable by those actors as teens and it's kind of fascinating. 

[ThisIsMe]

Re the Zoe-Kevin storyline.  I think the writers want us all to be thinking about and discussing the subtle (and not subtle) issues of race.  I think they've integrated topics quite well into the script.  It certainly has been well-discussed on this board!

As for Vietnam and the mystery woman in the picture ... wild guess but maybe there was a relationship between her and Jack's brother?  And, maybe there are now Pearson cousin(s) in the states?  (As if we don't have enough Pearsons to worry about!)

[Maximona]

2 hours ago, Kirkydee said:

She went through a very hard time after that, and it took her a while to find another job because her self confidence was definitely shaken.

Well, you know, the other reason that people don't find jobs after they've been laid off from the one where they've been for many years is because they've reached the top of their salary bracket.  And the interviewing company is not in a position to match the salary that that person was making.

[jhummerbird]

1 hour ago, ThisIsMe said:

Re the Zoe-Kevin storyline.  I think the writers want us all to be thinking about and discussing the subtle (and not subtle) issues of race.  I think they've integrated topics quite well into the script.  It certainly has been well-discussed on this board!

I think the racial dynamics of the Zoe-Kevin storyline are quite true to life and well done. My issue with it is that it doesn't really fit what we know of the characters so far. Everything we've heard about Zoe so far is that she's career-driven, dislikes commitment, and is a man-eater (according to Beth). Also, she hasn't dated any white men. Now it sounds like she is wondering whether or not to commit to Kevin *because* of the race issues. So...what was at the root of her dislike of commitment with all the Black/POC men she dated?? Why was "doesn't want a serious relationship" her main characteristic for the whole season and we're just now seeing that specifically she's not sure she wants to put in the effort to commit to a white guy? 
And then with Kevin...whether or not he and Beth ever talked directly about hair care, he did LIVE in a Black woman's house for several months last year, right? Wasn't Beth annoyed at how long he was staying with them? Didn't he ever tuck his nieces into bed and see their nighttime hair routine or hear them talking about their hair? I get that Kevin can be blissfully unaware of his privilege but he should have more awareness than a lot of white dudes his age. In fact, it could have been kind of fun to explore Kevin being "woke" in a way that was superficial or annoyed Zoe.  

[Blakeston]

On 10/24/2018 at 5:47 PM, GodsBeloved said:

I give Kevin a pass on the cashier because his attention was diverted. He wasn’t looking at the cashier when the exchange happened with Zoe. Had he been looking at her he may have picked up on from the body language. 

Even without looking, Kevin still should have picked up on the cashier assuming they weren't a couple, because they needed to point out to her that they were together.

Admittedly, a cashier might not recognize two white people as a couple if they approached the counter separately. But interracial couples are a lot more likely to face that kind of thing.

On 10/25/2018 at 12:35 PM, Kirkydee said:

I have to agree with the 'her'.  We all want to know who 'her' is in the future we are grasping at anything that might be a clue.  But if Beth is 'her' I seriously doubt early onset dementia at this age.  As others have said we've seen the confident got-it-together Beth.  So it threw us collectively when we see Beth not bring her A game.  

Beth was too emotional to talk in the interview scene is certainly the most obvious possibility. But I could easily see it being a Big Important Twist that she was actually experiencing some sort of cognitive difficulty (whether it was dementia, a brain tumor, or something else).

It was played rather ambiguously, so that her inability to talk could have been about emotion, or it could have been a physical problem forming words. And I have some difficulty believing that they would do simultaneous plotlines where Toby and Beth both reveal that they've been secretly struggling with depression and anxiety.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Blakeston

[CountryGirl]

So after the Jack/Nicky-centric episode last week, this week's episode was jam-packed with different storylines and it was little daunting to keep up, so my thoughts are kind of jumbled here.

I loved seeing Night Court's Charles Robinson as, natch, the present-day Donnie Robinson.

Of the Big Three, Kevin's storyline is the one I'm most intrigued by and Charles added such gravitas to those scenes where he informed Kevin that Jack was not a mechanic like he had been led to believe.

And then we see the picture of Jack with the woman whose necklace Kevin would someday own.

Randall, who is in way over his head, had a cute moment with Beth re Randall's propensity to cry at the drop of a hat.

I'm with you, Beth.

Also, how cute were they when Beth sashayed away and Randall told her to "take no prisoners, baby?"

But how my heart broke for teenage Randall...

And present-day Beth who couldn't possibly keep being the strong one after all she's been through:

And young Toby...

*I did smile at his Rodney Dangerfield impression.

We saw present-day Toby, visibly crushed under the weight of being Kate's "rock."

Kate/Toby waiting for the phone calls was spot-on and I could totally relate to willing the phone to ring while simultaneously being afraid to answer. But I thought it was a little too trite that she would get pregnant on the first try. Or maybe that's my envy talking.

We see the first hint of Miguel/Rebecca with Jack telling his BFF to look after his family if something happened to him. Also, Jack taking care of the life insurance policy is not being a "saint." It's what I would call...normal. Miguel, with his piano-bringing, refrigerator-fixing, Ricky Ricardo-imitating, is growing on me a little bit and I like how they are showing his eventual marriage to Rebecca was years of little moments like these in the making.

That little moment when Kate, feeling guilty, starts to close the cover of the piano and Rebecca stops her, sitting beside her. The quick flash to the photograph of happier days.

It isn't often we see these two seeing each other and I don't know what it is about them, but it chokes me up every time.

[DFWGina]

On 10/23/2018 at 9:03 PM, notcreative enough said:

And am I the only one that wants a Vietnamese Jack Jr with like 5 look a like mini Jacks. Just so Katie girl isn't the only one to pass a bit of daddy on.

This....

On 10/24/2018 at 4:02 AM, Drumpf1737 said:

Everybody eats fried chicken too but somehow it became uniquely associated with Black people.

I am white and from the south and I've never associated fried chicken with anything other than being southern.  It was a staple on both sides of my family (maternal and paternal grandparents) and also with my parents. Even I can cook a mean fried chicken even today.... Fried chicken was at every church (also very white) pot luck or picnic I ever attended and being southern - that is many!   I also associate it with Colonel Sanders (Kentucky Fried Chicken) who is pretty white by all accounts.... 

Please know that I have heard that reference and am still shocked by it each time it comes up...    I just do not "get it" due to my background of being a white fried chicken lover :-)

On 10/24/2018 at 11:38 AM, Mrs.Monkey said:

What surprised me about the convenience store scene was that no one recognized Kevin. He was the Manny. Now he's starring in a big movie. But no one in the store noticed that. Same thing with the conversation with the soldier's wife. Yes Zoe is dating a white man, but she's also dating a celebrity. How was that not part of the conversation?

I thought it was odd that they didn't recognize him as the Manny too.  No one ever seems to even mention that to Kevin.  And he has that movie that just premiered where is one of the stars...  That part rang false to me.  

Also, my husband and I are not an unusual couple - similar age, similar race, nothing unusual about our looks that would seem to "separate" us but many times we are asked one check or two at restaurants.  I think it is that people do not want to assume a man/woman are a couple.

I do not dispute that the look she gave Zoe was racist at all.  But everything up to the point where he said "we're together" didn't seem racist at all.

On 10/24/2018 at 2:22 PM, Dowel Jones said:

If Randall was just a bit more astute, he would have realized that it would be far more effective to find out what people in that area wanted for their families, friends, and neighborhood.  Then maybe support them and get them pointed in a direction to work on those goals as a community, so they have some ownership.  By running for election he makes the problems and solutions all about him, and the residents are secondary (not that this doesn't happen in real life elections).  As it is, the councilman, instead of dealing with local citizens, has Randall as a lightning rod without any support.

I can't imagine ANY outsider winning an election especially against a long-time incumbent.  PLUS - why in the world would they still be paying rent (albeit to themselves) on that apartment since William passed many months ago?

23 hours ago, voiceover said:

In bars, on a 5-hour flight, etc etc.

I hope I never sit by you on a plane trip.  No offense but I hate when strangers try to talk to me on planes other than basic pleasantries.

20 hours ago, Driad said:

I don't know much about IVF or depression, but why couldn't Toby start taking his meds again as soon as he gave his sample?  The time from then to a confirmed pregnancy must have been weeks at least.

My guess is that he would need to wait to see if the eggs fertilized and if they did, then to see if they were successfully implanted... He might have to go back to for another sample....

[Jax7917]

Someone posted this above but I was also thinking early onset Alzheimer's for Beth . 

[Kirkydee]

I have to disagree on the opinion that people are surprised they dont recognize Kevin as a celebrity.  There are a lot of stars I wouldn't recognize.  Especially if I dont watch their shows or movies.  It seems that Kevin's only claim to fame is the manny and his new film.  So if these people haven't seen Kevin in those 2 roles he would be anonymous.

A couple of other examples for me.

I never watched the wonder years so I had no idea about the actor.  I'm sure I could look him up and see if I watched him before. But right now I dont recognize him

A coworker friend of mine was telling me she was going to the Luke Bryan concert.  So, my country music knowledge is right next to my wonder years knowledge so I had to google Luke... and suprising to me this guy is uber popular

And last, since I'm a HUGE sports fan I remember in 91 when my supervisor told me that Magic Johnson was just diagnosed with HIV.  Another co worker asked me "who's Magic Johnson"

[CrystalBlue]

I was fully expecting Toby to be late for the 4:00 phone call because he would be, for the drama.  I was fully expecting Kate to have gotten the results of the IVF attempt over the phone alone, and jumping (not literally) all over Toby for being late, and having her bear the bad news that none of the eggs got fertilized, and as almost everyone likes to point out that Kate is selfish, only about herself.

Surprise!  I was really happy for Kate and Toby, and liked how Kate didn't care that Toby was late, and then immediately took over caring for him when he started the breakdown.

[babs j.]

The dad in Dirty Dancing was played by the late, great Jerry Ohrbach (sp?).  He was in the original cast of The Fantasticks -played off Broadway for many years - and iwas Lenny Briscoe in Law & Order until he got too sick.    

[ThisIsMe]

4 hours ago, jhummerbird said:

I think the racial dynamics of the Zoe-Kevin storyline are quite true to life and well done. My issue with it is that it doesn't really fit what we know of the characters so far. 

Good point.  But I don't think the writers have been consistent with the peripheral characters in general.  Like when they started out making Madison seem like a dippy, skinny blonde chick but then gave her more depth.  I think Zoe's character is changing on us too.  I'm ambivalent about the relationship.  To me, they don't have the greatest chemistry on screen.

[ThisIsMe]

Thinking about who the "her" could be really has me baffled.

It has to be someone that Randall, Tess, and Toby all have in common.  If it's Beth - as has been speculated  this week - why the call from Randall to Toby to "come downstairs?"  If it's Kate - why is Tess a key participant in the visit?

I'm thinking it could be one of the peripheral characters whose storyline and connection to those three has not yet been developed.

Thoughts?

[Drumpf1737]

I think the difference between this season and the last two is even though we cried we were smiling through our tears because we loved the Pearsons.  

This episode is named "Toby" and he's barely mentioned on the boards. Young Toby is straight out of my Child Development texts. Children of depressed or bi-polar parents entertain to lift spirits and garner attention 

Quote

 I just do not "get it" due to my background 

Quote

But everything up to the point where he said "we're together" didn't seem racist at all.

When Zoe came back to the counter the clerk admonished her for interrupting she and Kevin's chat. It was quick, but it was there and it was mean. In the old South, she would've called her gal and labeled her uppity for even walking up to the counter next to Kevin.  I'm not surprised you didn't "get it" it's not a big deal if you didn't, but now that the show demonstrated it in pretty elementary terms I hope everyone gets it and doesn't let someone get treated this way when they see it.

[voiceover]

4 hours ago, DFWGina said:

I hope I never sit by you on a plane trip.  No offense

My previous comment ("a 5-hour plane trip") was meant to add to the list of places where one might reveal personal info to a stranger.  (IIRC, might've been @Neurochick who said "a bar")

It was not intended to reference how I behave, in bars or on the LA redeye.  With that in mind --

*I* hope you never sit by me on a plane trip.  No offense.

[Soup333]

On 10/24/2018 at 2:54 PM, Katy M said:

By the way, I know that that exchange was supposed to be racist, but I did the same thing to a couple and they were both white.  Man was putting some snacks on the counter and a woman came up and slapped some stuff down in front of his.  They didn't even look at each other or anything. So, I said "He was here first. "  She snapped back "we're together."  And I said "OK."  I don't know if they were in the middle of a fight or what, but it was really weird.

And this is one of the things that make minorities question their experiences. Is this person a racist or just an asshole? The show makes it obvious how we’re supposed to interpret that scene but in real life we only have her disapproving look and that could have been for a number of reasons. Is she in the last hour of her shift? Issues at home? Some other customer pissed her off? Does she not approve of interracial relationships? Hard to tell. Throughout my life I’ve always erred on the side of asshole but as I’ve gotten older it’s harder not to say something. 

On 10/24/2018 at 4:29 PM, CleoCaesar said:

Yeah, she really seemed to be struggling for words. It looked like cognitive fog. I too really don't buy that the Beth we've seen for 2 seasons - cool, snarky, with-it Beth - would just start blubbering in the middle of a job interview because she was overcome with mourning her old job.

Count me in as one who is NOT seeing a cognitive issue with Beth at all. I’m really surprised that others are. 

What happened with Beth made me think of the Red Table Talk episode from this week. If you’re unfamiliar, Jada Pinkett Smith, along with her mother and daughter, have a Facebook show that airs every week  this week her husband was on for the first of a two-part episode about their marriage. They revealed some of their issues and how unhappy Jada was for a long time, even though their family was very successful. She’d felt that she had to support Will’s idea of the image of their family at detriment to herself. Throughout, her body language was very stiff which is completely different from how she’s normally been in other episodes.

I feel as if Beth is experiencing something similar within her marriage. She's supportive. That’s what she does. But Randall isn’t picking up that she needs some support herself. She might even think she’s really okay but she’s not. Randall doesn’t see it because he’s too busy saving the world.

Speaking of, I have no interest in the political storyline and I really wish they’d drop it. I would forgive them completely if they never mentioned it again.

[marymon]

7 hours ago, Kirkydee said:

I have to disagree on the opinion that people are surprised they dont recognize Kevin as a celebrity.  There are a lot of stars I wouldn't recognize.  Especially if I dont watch their shows or movies.  It seems that Kevin's only claim to fame is the manny and his new film.  So if these people haven't seen Kevin in those 2 roles he would be anonymous.

A couple of other examples for me.

I never watched the wonder years so I had no idea about the actor.  I'm sure I could look him up and see if I watched him before. But right now I dont recognize him

A coworker friend of mine was telling me she was going to the Luke Bryan concert.  So, my country music knowledge is right next to my wonder years knowledge so I had to google Luke... and suprising to me this guy is uber popular

And last, since I'm a HUGE sports fan I remember in 91 when my supervisor told me that Magic Johnson was just diagnosed with HIV.  Another co worker asked me "who's Magic Johnson"

Also I do not think people  always recognize someone out of the place you are use to seeing them   Like the cashier could have been hey he looks like Kevin Peirce but it can't be why would he be in my little 7-11 out here in nowhereville.

[bros402]

On 10/24/2018 at 12:13 PM, Kirkydee said:

Thanks for the reply.  I figured it was probably more than just a benzo that he was on.  I work in an ED and I can get a little jaded when people are on a lot of opioids and benzos.  As you know people will say any and everything to get what they want (not what they need- not saying Toby is that way).  I didn't know about giving a 3 day supply temporarily.  Is that state by state or per policy by individual pharmacy? 

I imagine the 3 day thing is done for a lot of non-addictive medications - I have epilepsy, sometimes I need a 3 day supply because I had a seizure and needed to take an extra pill, or I drop one and it manages to somehow land in the garbage can.

With things like antibiotics, or a controlled substance, they aren't gonna just throw you one, but I imagine for things to manage chronic ailments, they will give a few pills to tide you over - especially if it is a long standing prescription

[Conotocarious]

For some reason, people seem to really want someone in this show to have Alzheimer’s. Ive seen it in several places around the Internet. I remember it being a theory for Jack. I’ve seen Rebecca’s name mentioned. Jack also would have been pretty young. Now Beth, a woman who clearly suffering from stress and lack of meaningful support, is having symptoms of early onset Alzheimer’s? In her late thirties?

I also remember the “Randall has Parkinson’s” theory from back when he had shaking hands during a clearly acute episode of panic attack. 

I love theories but I guess I’m not one for jumping to heinous diseases  as the first option.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Conotocarious

[ShadowFacts]

31 minutes ago, Conotocarious said:

For some reason, people seem to really want someone in this show to have Alzheimer’s. Ive seen it in several places around the Internet. I remember it being a theory for Jack. I’ve seen Rebecca’s name mentioned. Jack also would have been pretty young. Now Beth, a woman who clearly suffering from stress and lack of meaningful support, is having symptoms of early onset Alzheimer’s? In her late thirties?

I also remember the “Randall has Parkinson’s” theory from back when he had shaking hands during a clearly acute episode of panic attack. 

I love theories but I guess I’m not one for jumping to heinous diseases  as the first option.

Yes, plus these people have had cancer, addictions, mental health problems and they are all relatable but how about some good old fashioned stress of living and working and being in a caretaking/caregiving role with too little support?  That's relatable too, especially to what I imagine is the core audience. 

[Maximona]

12 hours ago, ThisIsMe said:

I'm thinking it could be one of the peripheral characters whose storyline and connection to those three has not yet been developed.

Thoughts?

Maybe it's the Vietnamese woman.  Whom the Pearsons have imported so they can light up her life.  :-)

[PRgal]

17 hours ago, jhummerbird said:

I think the racial dynamics of the Zoe-Kevin storyline are quite true to life and well done. My issue with it is that it doesn't really fit what we know of the characters so far. Everything we've heard about Zoe so far is that she's career-driven, dislikes commitment, and is a man-eater (according to Beth). Also, she hasn't dated any white men. Now it sounds like she is wondering whether or not to commit to Kevin *because* of the race issues. So...what was at the root of her dislike of commitment with all the Black/POC men she dated?? Why was "doesn't want a serious relationship" her main characteristic for the whole season and we're just now seeing that specifically she's not sure she wants to put in the effort to commit to a white guy? 
And then with Kevin...whether or not he and Beth ever talked directly about hair care, he did LIVE in a Black woman's house for several months last year, right? Wasn't Beth annoyed at how long he was staying with them? Didn't he ever tuck his nieces into bed and see their nighttime hair routine or hear them talking about their hair? I get that Kevin can be blissfully unaware of his privilege but he should have more awareness than a lot of white dudes his age. In fact, it could have been kind of fun to explore Kevin being "woke" in a way that was superficial or annoyed Zoe.  

Zoe's a spoiled, entitled Millennial (she's younger than Beth and the Big 3, which makes her more Millennial than Xennial)?  She could find something wrong with how a guy orders his coffee (because it wasn't half almond milk, half coconut and with half foam)?  Because the avocado toast wasn't done the right way or with the RIGHT KIND of gluten-free keto bread?  I'm just thinking up all the millennial stereotypes I can come up with.  

[TVForever]

On 10/23/2018 at 10:42 PM, ams1001 said:

He said something about putting his name on William's lease when William came to live with them.

 

I knew it had something to do with her hair, but not the specific reason (white girl with fine mousy hair, here). Randall presumably didn't sleep on a silk pillowcase and I wouldn't assume Kevin would necessarily know Beth's nighttime hair habits just because she's married to his brother.

Exactly this. And let's face it, most guys just don't know (or care much) about how women get to their beautiful-only that they do, somehow. And women tend to keep those things from them, until they're REALLY intimate as a couple. Not necessarily a racial thing, more of a gender thing.

[Jeddah]

32 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Zoe's a spoiled, entitled Millennial (she's younger than Beth and the Big 3, which makes her more Millennial than Xennial)?  She could find something wrong with how a guy orders his coffee (because it wasn't half almond milk, half coconut and with half foam)?  Because the avocado toast wasn't done the right way or with the RIGHT KIND of gluten-free keto bread?  I'm just thinking up all the millennial stereotypes I can come up with.  

I really don’t understand the Millennial bashing on these boards. You don’t like Zoe as a character. Why use that as a reason to perpetuate stereotypes and trash an entire generation?

[Lady Calypso]

Hey everyone! Just a quick reminder that preview talk is NOT allowed in the episode threads. If you want to talk about things that happened in the previews for the next episode, that belongs in the Previews and Sneak Peeks thread. 

[PRgal]

16 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I really don’t understand the Millennial bashing on these boards. You don’t like Zoe as a character. Why use that as a reason to perpetuate stereotypes and trash an entire generation?

Blame the writers.  She comes out that way to me. 

BTW, I like avocado toast myself - though sometimes on keto bread and sometimes on regular (or regular, gluten-free).  

[Soup333]

I don’t even get the Zoe bashing. We’ve not seen her do anything incredibly - or even mildly offensive. We know what Beth has said but don’t yet know how that’s going to play out. She’s cautious with Kevin but I think that’s normal. Some people aren’t worth the effort. She wasn’t sure if he was or not. Perhaps I just don’t remember what she’s done that have made people call her psychotic (or maybe it was a psychopath). I don’t get spoiled and entitled from her character. 

[Jeddah]

20 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Blame the writers.  She comes out that way to me. 

BTW, I like avocado toast myself - though sometimes on keto bread and sometimes on regular (or regular, gluten-free).  

She doesn’t come across that way to me. But even if she is like that, that doesn’t say anything about an entire generation.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Jeddah

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

We’ve not seen her do anything incredibly - or even mildly offensive.

The only thing that has bother me about her so far was that she seemed really perturbed about Kevin not knowing why she needed a silk pillow.  Tell him or don't tell him, but don't be irked that he doesn't know what he doesn't know.  But, other than that, I neither like her or dislike her. She hasn't really done that much on screen for me to judge.

And as far as the entitled charge, I think Randall and Kate win King and Queen of Entitlement. No other character need apply.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Katy M

[Pallas]

Quote

And women tend to keep those things from them, until they're REALLY intimate as a couple. Not necessarily a racial thing, more of a gender thing.

But virtually every Black man has grown up with Black women (just not Randall, as it happens). They're going to be familiar with their mother's and sisters' head scarves and satin/silk pillowcase, and with racism. Talking with her hostess, Zoe was just trying to grouse out what was unsettling her.

 

Quote

Everything we've heard about Zoe so far is that she's career-driven, dislikes commitment, and is a man-eater (according to Beth). Also, she hasn't dated any white men. Now it sounds like she is wondering whether or not to commit to Kevin *because* of the race issues. So...what was at the root of her dislike of commitment with all the Black/POC men she dated??

Beth also said that she loved Zoe, and that Zoe was burdened by baggage, like many of us. And like most everyone who leaves everyone, Zoe could have a new reason every time. Something that may be the issue but isn't the point. 

[MissL]

15 hours ago, ThisIsMe said:

Good point.  But I don't think the writers have been consistent with the peripheral characters in general.  Like when they started out making Madison seem like a dippy, skinny blonde chick but then gave her more depth.  I think Zoe's character is changing on us too.  I'm ambivalent about the relationship.  To me, they don't have the greatest chemistry on screen.

Agreed. I personally think they messed up with Sophie. Especially after seeing her in the prom scene. She should have been a character we became invested in in the PAST before she became part of the present. She's been in Kevin's life since they were kids and she was Kate's friend too I thought, she actually knew Jack and has been there for all the Pearson big moments. Kevin married her for goodness sake. The writers wrote her into their lives but she's barely a presence in the scenes like prom. She was just THERE and had nothing to add to the scene, even when she dropped off Kevin. Why would she think to take him to Miguel's and not home? The Pearson life outside each other isn't explored very well. Maybe that's on purpose since it's such a large cast already? 

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

But virtually every Black man has grown up with Black women (just not Randall, as it happens). They are therefore apt to be familiar with their mother's and sisters' head scarves and satin/silk pillowcase. Just as they are familiar with racism. Through her hostess, Zoe was talking to herself (she's a Pearson in-law, if not yet by commitment!), trying to grouse out what was unsettling her.

 

Beth also said that she loved Zoe, and that Zoe was burdened by baggage, like many of us. And like most everyone who leaves everyone, Zoe could have a new reason every time. Something that may be the issue but isn't the point. 

My big takeaway from the great pillowcase caper is that even though he had no idea why she needed her pillowcase, and she didn't volunteer a reason, Kevin cared enough to be willing to go back for it and took the trouble to have one delivered to her.  That, and him going on this trip to find out more about his father's past, show pretty much character development.  He could barely talk about his father up until now.   Though we don't know much about Zoe, she is apparently not so averse to investing herself in a relationship as she might have been in the past, so that's some evidence of growth as well.    I'm critical of the writing sometimes, but these snippets are pretty good, I hope we see more in this vein. 

[Soup333]

52 minutes ago, MissL said:

Agreed. I personally think they messed up with Sophie. Especially after seeing her in the prom scene. She should have been a character we became invested in in the PAST before she became part of the present. She's been in Kevin's life since they were kids and she was Kate's friend too I thought, she actually knew Jack and has been there for all the Pearson big moments. Kevin married her for goodness sake. The writers wrote her into their lives but she's barely a presence in the scenes like prom. She was just THERE and had nothing to add to the scene, even when she dropped off Kevin. Why would she think to take him to Miguel's and not home? The Pearson life outside each other isn't explored very well. Maybe that's on purpose since it's such a large cast already? 

This is the story I want to see. I don't agree that they introduced Sophie at the wrong time but I do think they need to flesh out that prom scene and what her reaction was to his drinking, but they might be bookmarking it to come back to later. I'd actually rather they went into this history with Kevin dealing with his past drinking and the damage it caused and how it might relate to him now in regards to a relationship with Zoe. They could have nixed the political story and let Randall run after Jack's Vietnam history.

*I'm almost willing to watch anything other than this political story with Randall. I HATE it. All aspects. And Chi Chi is still a bitch.

[Amethyst]

I was looking forward to meeting the famous Sophie, and you could tell this was supposed to be a major plot for Kevin.  The problem was that the actors had no chemistry and it showed.  It was bad when Kevin had a better rapport with Sloane, (someone he knew for five minutes) rather than Sophie, the love of his life who knew him better than anybody else.  But as a couple, they were blah, viewers weren’t into her, so there was no point in keeping Sophie around.  So the writers quietly shuffled her off and ended their reconciliation.

Unfortunately, the writers painted themselves into a corner.  Sophie was a huge part of Kevin’s life, including his teenage years.  Now they have to scramble and deliberately not mention her, even though there’s a well-established history.  Maybe they should have recast the character.

[BoogieBurns]

5 hours ago, PRgal said:

coffee (because it wasn't half almond milk, half coconut and with half foam)?

Is half-foam a thing? As a millennial, I plan to order it from now on. 

Re: Beth, I quoted several posters and all of my quotes disappeared, so I will just make my point. Beth has been holding it together for a long time and can't anymore. When my always-happy-smiley-rainbows-and-unicorns mom got divorced from my dad, I saw this EXACT scenario. She had three tweens to raise half of the time, she wasn't even 40 years old, and she couldn't keep the smile on her face. It was too much. She literally had ulcers growing because of how much stress she was trying to keep from bubbling up. She screamed at us one time, even said "damn it" which may have shocked me the most. My mother had never raised her voice in the decade I had been alive, nor said a curse word. 

I see a lot of my mother in Beth, which sucks because Beth is the best character and I want her to be "me" than my mom.  However, nothing cognitive was wrong with my mother, she was (and remains) a textbook people-pleaser who diffuses stressful situations with humor. It's very realistic to struggle after a job loss. I see no reason to think she is "sick".

Re: Zoe airing it all out to a complete stranger - I think as black women we have a short hand that allows us to skip several steps between "total strangers" and "old friends." I have opened up to older black ladies for advice a lot (but never on an airplane flight, haha), as I just assume they did when they were younger. There are a lot of black people in this country, but there is still a shared connection many of us have. It's just like how black dudes do "the nod." 

[PRgal]

4 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

Is half-foam a thing? As a millennial, I plan to order it from now on. 

Re: Beth, I quoted several posters and all of my quotes disappeared, so I will just make my point. Beth has been holding it together for a long time and can't anymore. When my always-happy-smiley-rainbows-and-unicorns mom got divorced from my dad, I saw this EXACT scenario. She had three tweens to raise half of the time, she wasn't even 40 years old, and she couldn't keep the smile on her face. It was too much. She literally had ulcers growing because of how much stress she was trying to keep from bubbling up. She screamed at us one time, even said "damn it" which may have shocked me the most. My mother had never raised her voice in the decade I had been alive, nor said a curse word. 

I see a lot of my mother in Beth, which sucks because Beth is the best character and I want her to be "me" than my mom.  However, nothing cognitive was wrong with my mother, she was (and remains) a textbook people-pleaser who diffuses stressful situations with humor. It's very realistic to struggle after a job loss. I see no reason to think she is "sick".

Re: Zoe airing it all out to a complete stranger - I think as black women we have a short hand that allows us to skip several steps between "total strangers" and "old friends." I have opened up to older black ladies for advice a lot (but never on an airplane flight, haha), as I just assume they did when they were younger. There are a lot of black people in this country, but there is still a shared connection many of us have. It's just like how black dudes do "the nod." 

Half foam isn't a thing for me, but I'm sometimes really picky about what goes in my coffee.  I'm known to order my PSL without the whip and only one pump of syrup.  It's still PSL, right?

[Violetgoblin6]

On 10/25/2018 at 6:38 PM, babs j. said:

The dad in Dirty Dancing was played by the late, great Jerry Ohrbach (sp?).  He was in the original cast of The Fantasticks -played off Broadway for many years - and iwas Lenny Briscoe in Law & Order until he got too sick.    

And I remember him as the candles in Beauty and the Beast (1990). 

[love2lovebadtv]

On 10/24/2018 at 7:32 AM, notcreative enough said:

First when I said I hate people like Zoey it’s more the cover sensitive highly offended youth of American. I also think there is a huge different between ignorant and racist. But my perspective is very different because  its not something that i ever have to face. There is a lot of racism in this world and it is getting worse because it seems to be more ok because of the people/person leading the charge. I’m sure it does get exhausting having to explain things to people. Maybe it’s my whiteness but if you don’t tell me something that means something or is important to you how an I supposed know.  
I spotted the cashier being racist but I also wouldn’t say anything to her. I would have waited until after we went to the car. Every time they What Would You Do show is on I’m answer is always nothing because you don’t know how people will react anymore. People can turn violent at the drip of a hat and while what’s happening might be terrible the most I will do is alert the proper authorities. I’m not surprised Kevin don’t notice because he’s the type of guy who is 75% Kevin 25% rest of the world. And in that moment it was all about what candy Kevin wants
As I said it would be different if she had this conversation with Beth someone who knows them both. But she had it with someone she doesn't know. She has the power to alter this woman option of Kevin because she doesn't have one yet. Sometime what people say about you has more impact then the first impression you have of someone. And if they want to explore Zoeys issues with an interracial relationship that great. It's a story that needs to be told. She just wasn't exactly getting advice fro someone in an interracial relationship.

 

On 10/24/2018 at 6:52 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I was surprised that Zoe wasn't documenting the entire visit with Jack's war buddy (Mac!) so that she could turn it into a documentary. I like that Kevin is delving into Jack's past and trying to understand his experience. I felt for Zoe because it sucks when you experience one of those moments and it feels like you're all alone (which she was since Kevin was too busy looking at snacks to notice).

As for the pillow thing, I get where she's coming from. Constantly explaining your otherness can be exhausting and that's a lot of effort for something that's just a fun friends with benefits kind of situation. For people who don't understand what it's like, imagine having to explain how and why you do something that is part of your basic daily routine. Why do you take a shower in the morning? Why not at night? Why do you use that specific soap? Why do you use a shower gel instead of bar soap? I've never heard of that brand before. Where did you get it? Who told you about it? How long have you been using it? Have you tried other brands? What about other scents? Why do you like desert rose better than fresh lilac? Do you use a loofah? Why don't you use one of those mesh shower poufs instead? Now imagine having to explain all of that several times a week or every time you meet a new person. That's kind of like what explaining your otherness is like. To you, it's just what you do. But you end up having to explain the same things over and over constantly. It's not that what you do is super complicated or anything to be embarrassed about. It's just tiresome having to share this information repeatedly and after the hundredth time, you're just kind of over it even though you know you're going to have to do it again pretty soon.

1

I'm sorry (not sorry) but I don't feel for Zoe. If the show wants to explore interracial couples through Zoe and Kevin, that's cool. But if these two incidents - the pillowcase and the cashier - are her reasons for doubting a relationship with Kevin, then I call BS. The pillowcase is NOT a defining factor for black women and there's no reason he should know why she wanted it. As I mentioned in another thread, I'm more annoyed by people who have dated/married/been friends with one or two black women and think we're all the same.  I asked three of my black male cousins about this and only one recalled an ex who slept on a satin pillowcase and he said he assumed it was because of her sensitive skin. It would be different if, when Zoe explained why she likes satin pillowcases (I say likes because it is certainly not a requirement), Kevin asked a bunch of stupid questions. He got it, no big deal. A woman of any ethnicity, especially with curly hair, could have said the same thing and he would have likely had the same response. Kevin could have dated black women exclusively without ever having laid eyes on a satin pillowcase. And I can't fault Kevin for not associating the pillowcase with haircare. It's not like she wanted a hair scarf. Still, Kevin got Zoe a pillowcase not because she's black but because he likes her and it's what she wanted. It's a pillowcase.

I cannot imagine having to explain my bathing and other daily routines to anyone. I remember the first time I spent the night at a non-family member's house and saw many routines that were different from those in my own family. But even as a child, I did not ask why do you do this and not that. And I also think that if we're going to talk about otherness, we need to acknowledge that black people don't all have the same culture. We don't all come from the same countries or eat the same foods or speak the same languages and dialects. So if Zoe were dating a black man whose family is from the US, would she have an issue with that? Beth's family is not from the US, which means Zoe's family isn't either unless it's only one of Beth's parents and Zoe is on the other side of her family. Even Randall likely had to explain a lot in the beginning since he was, as Beth said, raised by white people. And let's also not forget that among black women of the same nationality - and even in the same family - generational differences contribute to differences, too.  

And as for the cashier incident, I'm not mad that Kevin didn't see because he was looking at snacks - which is what people do in a store. If the cashier had something that he heard, that would be different. He did not see and Zoe was too taken aback at that moment to say anything. I feel like Zoe is just trying to find something wrong with Kevin to justify not committing to him. This isn't the first time she has seemed uncomfortable and the reason for her discomfort in prior episodes had nothing to do with race. Beth said that Zoe eats men up and spits them out. Kevin can be oblivious but Zoe is really reaching with this pillowcase and cashier whose nastiness Kevin didn't even see. I'd love to see Kevin and Zoe open each other's eyes more. 

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

Beth's family is not from the US, which means Zoe's family isn't either unless it's only one of Beth's parents and Zoe is on the other side of her family.

Wait, what?  where is Beth from?  I totally missed that she wasn't born in this country.  Or was it her parents?  Either way, I missed it.

[love2lovebadtv]

39 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Wait, what?  where is Beth from?  I totally missed that she wasn't born in this country.  Or was it her parents?  Either way, I missed it.

Her parents are from the Caribbean. 

[Driad]

People do have different expectations. Zoe might feel insulted if she stayed with a black family who didn't have a satin pillow case for her. Once I was on a bus and two men sat behind me. One complained about a house guest who "took a shower and didn't even have the decency to wipe the water off the shower walls with a towel." The other man said something noncommittal. If I ever stay with someone who expects that, I hope they tell me.

[AllThatJazz91]

I'll admit I wasn't looking forward to this episode because of Toby. I've warmed up to him some. But that's only because the writers toned him down. After watching it I was pleasantly surprised. I did enjoy it. Also kudos to the casting director because little Toby was a perfect match. I'm glad we're getting to see Kate and eventually Randall be their spouses' rocks. After seeing that Beth is going to be going thru something. I have a even stronger feeling she is the mystery in the flash forward. 

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, Driad said:

People do have different expectations. Zoe might feel insulted if she stayed with a black family who didn't have a satin pillow case for her. Once I was on a bus and two men sat behind me. One complained about a house guest who "took a shower and didn't even have the decency to wipe the water off the shower walls with a towel." The other man said something noncommittal. If I ever stay with someone who expects that, I hope they tell me.

It's like people expecting, say, Chinese or Japanese families to have chopsticks or a (working) rice cooker, I suppose.  They'll be upset if they came to visit me.  I have the former, but the latter?  Ummm...mine died in 2014 and I've given up and have been cooking stovetop since.  It's fine.  And if people have issues, TOO f-ing bad (my parents don't care, so why should outsiders, right?).  I mostly eat quinoa anyway - much to my family's dismay.

 

However, I think Zoe can be a little too sensitive regarding the pillowcase.  The cashier, I get, though.  

[Soup333]

I don’t think the true issue was the pillowcase. That’s surface level conversation. What Zoe was concerned about was the totality of their relationship. She was thinking longer-term. Can I do this? Is he worth the trouble?

The Veteran’s wife understood this immediately, which is why she said it sounds exhausting. 

[PRgal]

30 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

I don’t think the true issue was the pillowcase. That’s surface level conversation. What Zoe was concerned about was the totality of their relationship. She was thinking longer-term. Can I do this? Is he worth the trouble?

The Veteran’s wife understood this immediately, which is why she said it sounds exhausting. 

But is Zoe's issue related to Kevin being white or Kevin being a celebrity?  Or Kevin being her cousin's brother-in-law?  

[debraran]

8 hours ago, Driad said:

People do have different expectations. Zoe might feel insulted if she stayed with a black family who didn't have a satin pillow case for her. Once I was on a bus and two men sat behind me. One complained about a house guest who "took a shower and didn't even have the decency to wipe the water off the shower walls with a towel." The other man said something noncommittal. If I ever stay with someone who expects that, I hope they tell me.

I never heard of doing that, re the shower, but my aunt I found out later expected you too if you slept over. Some things are just unique to you and shouldn't be expected by others.

[Dowel Jones]

5 hours ago, PRgal said:

I have the former, but the latter?  Ummm...mine died in 2014 and I've given up and have been cooking stovetop since. 

Don't get everybody started on defective slow cookers, now.

[Drumpf1737]

On 10/26/2018 at 6:51 AM, Jeddah said:

Blame the writers.  She comes out that way to me. 

Nah I don't think it's the writers.  It seems to me that the objection to Zoe is that she introduced something that many aren't familiar with and for some reason instead of chalking it up to lack of proximity you're angry. I'm so confused. 

Quote

Why is it racist if you don't know what another race (some people of another race) do in the privacy of their bedroom?

No one said it was. The projection is real! I know about my non-black girlfriends' routines because all the TV shows and commercials for all of my 40+ years have shown them to me. That's the reason I noted in my post it's a product of racism that others don't have a genuine understanding of our culture.  It's only in the last 10 or 15 years there's been enough black women on TV or in movies to even get an inkling of our mindsets let alone our beauty regime--that's why Viola Davis' willingness to strip bare on How to Get Away with Murder is so groundbreaking. When Olivia Pope got her hair wet in the shower on Scandal some of us squealed because it was chipping away at our being locked out of basic norms on television.

Interracial dating and marriage have been legal since the 70s so I'm not sure what was political in this episodes.

I once froze in an interview--had a really uncomfortable flashback watching Beth. It's going to be really great to get a Beth episode. I look forward to getting better acquainted with her. I can't wait to see how Randall won her over. Did Kevin feed him all his lines?

[bros402]

4 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Don't get everybody started on defective slow cookers, now.

My dad's 1st cousin 1x removed (or 2x removed, I forget) invented the slow cooker!

:P

[JudyObscure]

6 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

Nah I don't think it's the writers.  It seems to me that the objection to Zoe is that she introduced something that many aren't familiar with and for some reason instead of chalking it up to lack of proximity you're angry. I'm so confused. 

No one said it was. The projection is real! I know about my non-black girlfriends' routines because all the TV shows and commercials for all of my 40+ years have shown them to me. That's the reason I noted in my post it's a product of racism that others don't have a genuine understanding of our culture.  It's only in the last 10 or 15 years there's been enough black women on TV or in movies to even get an inkling of our mindsets let alone our beauty regime--that's why Viola Davis' willingness to strip bare on How to Get Away with Murder is so groundbreaking. When Olivia Pope got her hair wet in the shower on Scandal some of us squealed because it was chipping away at our being locked out of basic norms on television.

Interracial dating and marriage have been legal since the 70s so I'm not sure what was political in this episodes.

I once froze in an interview--had a really uncomfortable flashback watching Beth. It's going to be really great to get a Beth episode. I look forward to getting better acquainted with her. I can't wait to see how Randall won her over. Did Kevin feed him all his lines?

I'm enjoying the writing for Zoe that shows the audience incidents from her point of view, whether or not she ends up thinking that Kevin is worth those teaching moments, we at home are learning things.  However, I do still think we need to remember that Zoe doesn't represent every black woman, anymore than the white women TV has shown us over the years are truly representative of white culture.  How many times has a comedy shown a white woman with pink curlers all over her head and a white or green mask on her face?  How many real women have we ever seen that way? I'm reminded of a line on, "Seinfeld,"  when Elaine was going off to spend some "girl time" with a new friend.  Jerry asked her if she was going to shop for ribbons and then have a pillow fight.  TV often portrays women doing housework in their expensive work clothes when I always change as soon as I get home. I guess they never get bleach spots since they only ever vacuum, nor any grease splatters since  cooking seems to consist of nothing more than endless celery chopping at the island.

 

I once froze in an interview, too. We'd talked for a half hour and everything was going great. I was pretty sure I had the job since I was being shown which desk would be mine, etc.  Then I needed to sign and date something and I totally blanked on the date.  The interviewer noticed my hesitation and told me the day but I couldn't even remember the month.  I watched her face and new the job was gone.