The Duggars and Their World: Fashion, Food, Finance, Schoolin’ and Child Rearin'

[BrianJ62]

Don't ask me how I know this, but I believe they wear sports bras, and yes, they do share them.

Ewwwwwww. I bet they share used underwear.

[Sew Sumi]

I feel for whoever gets stuck wearing the bra that Joy wore before the last wash.

[Micks Picks]

I guess we all have our things we are skeevy about.  When I have known those in hospital or convalescent or care homes, I come get their clothes and launder them and bring them back.  It's bad enough they have institutional food, industrial wash really creeps me out.  Maybe if I was from a big family and used to everything going in the same wash, it wouldn't bother me.  But my family always did their own personal wear.  And care homes, come on, who knows what is on all that personal laundry.  Bigger places use industrial machines, and things don't last long.  And the residents com pain about not getting their own stuff back.  So I do it for those I know.  No one will do it for me, which is why I really hope to be able to stay at home with a caretaker if needed.  And I feel like I need a carer half the time now!   Big families must share everything, but we all wear things differently which changes the fit.  So all the garments must be influenced by whomever wore it before.  And notice I am not referring to the 3 letter undergarment that I have heard too much about in the last few pages!

[BrianJ62]

I love all this over-the-shoulder boulder holder talk.

Jill's are sagging to a level even Michelle haven't sunk to

He looks like Ted Kaczynski or maybe Charlie Manson. Maybe saggy boobs are a badge of honor in her family. Edited March 12, 2016 by BrianJ62

[EAG46]

*Used* Sports bras?  Why, are underwires or good support an offence against Jesus or something?  And why *hand me down* bras?  Surely they can afford new bras for everyone.  Even WalMart must have nice durable bras for everyone at reasonable prices.  

[NewDigs]

*Used* Sports bras?  Why, are underwires or good support an offence against Jesus or something?  And why *hand me down* bras?  Surely they can afford new bras for everyone.  Even WalMart must have nice durable bras for everyone at reasonable prices.

3-packs available at Walmart for about ten bucks.

Of course one of them would have to give up a Starkbucks that day.

Oh! The humanity!

[GeeGolly]

I'm sure sports bras are fine pre-pregnancy and pre-nursing. Maybe Michelle never told them about support for the boobies. And when I imagined them sharing clothes I never imagined them picking up a bra someone just wore - just ew. I figured they just continued to do what they always did and pick a garment that fit - from the clean clothes.

 

Edited to add that I doubt Joy can share bras with anyone - she is built very differently from her sisters.

Edited March 12, 2016 by GeeGolly

[SometimesBites]

I come out of the "Jesus Freak" tradition. The Dilly-Dorks remind me of 100s of people I knew back in the day. So this, for fun.

 

[3girlsforus]

I think most kids in families, large or small, share clothes from time to time and definitely have hand-me-downs. The problem I have with the Duggar situation is that clothes are just another way JB/Michele remind the kids that they are non-entities. They aren't individuals who are allowed to own their own clothes. No closet of their own. No individual style, even within the guidelines of their dress code. I wonder if they are even allowed to own their own underwear. 

[louannems]

I think most kids in families, large or small, share clothes from time to time and definitely have hand-me-downs. The problem I have with the Duggar situation is that clothes are just another way JB/Michele remind the kids that they are non-entities. They aren't individuals who are allowed to own their own clothes. No closet of their own. No individual style, even within the guidelines of their dress code. I wonder if they are even allowed to own their own underwear.

They have bins for common sized socks, and underwear, too. The kids just grab and wear. I don't know about common bra wearing, though.

[Tabbygirl521]

The notion of sharing underpants makes me want to heave.

[becca3891]

I guess I'm in the minority but I find using a public bathroom wayyy more gross than sharing clean clothes with my sister. I mean, it's someone you know and trust, but more importantly, it's clean! I've always shared clothes with my sister and while we never shared underwear, if I needed a pair and she offered a clean one from her drawer, I wouldn't think anything of it. Most people don't think anything of trying on clothes in changing rooms, having no clue if ten filthy people going commando tried on the same item already!

 

The blurring of identities is another matter entirely, and I hope none of them feels required to share clothes if she doesn't want to.

[BitterApple]

The blurring of identities is another matter entirely, and I hope none of them feels required to share clothes if she doesn't want to.

I think that's what gets me more than family members sharing clothes. The Duggar kids can't even have their own basics (socks, underwear, bras). They sleep in a huge prison-style dorm and never have any privacy. It's institutional living, not a home.

[flyingdi]

I think some of them must have some of their own clothes. For instance Joy is clearly built different than her sisters. I don't mean she is fat but clearly what say Jinger wears would not fit Joy. Unless they truly don't care about modesty like they claim.

I think some of them must have some of their own clothes. For instance Joy is clearly built different than her sisters. I don't mean she is fat but clearly what say Jinger wears would not fit Joy. Unless they truly don't care about modesty like they claim.

[LilyoftheValley]

It seems that Jinger has at least been attempting to have her own personal style lately. Derrick looks like a homeless junkie. Does Jill not feed him or something?  Bad wife Jill, bad wife. 

[sometimesy]

It seems that Jinger has at least been attempting to have her own personal style lately. Derrick looks like a homeless junkie. Does Jill not feed him or something?  Bad wife Jill, bad wife. 

How can you blame Jill? If there aren't any restaurants nearby, or J-slaves (I-slaves?), how can she be a good wife? She has seen no modelling to follow. When is the last time a family flew down to work, err visit. Times are tough y'all. :)

Edited March 15, 2016 by sometimesy

[JoanArc]

 

If there aren't any restaurants nearby

They can't throw a rock without hitting an American chain. I doubt they've every been in the 'real' Guatemala alone, without a tour group and armed guards.

[LilyoftheValley]

Maybe Derrick is just going for that Christ on a Cross look.  I mean seriously, I am convinced he grew out the beard to look slightly less emaciated.  He looks about ten years older than he did at their wedding.  

[NewDigs]

Could he still be experiencing dental distress?

Doesn't excuse the Geico caveman look but could explain the weight loss. I can't imagine the pain involved with that surgery.

[GeeGolly]

So the girls did not look adoringly at John-David when he said he sometimes washes his clothes, but the girls enjoy doing it.

 

Did shit hit fan when JB & M saw that?

[Joe Jitsu913]

I think that's what gets me more than family members sharing clothes. The Duggar kids can't even have their own basics (socks, underwear, bras). They sleep in a huge prison-style dorm and never have any privacy. It's institutional living, not a home.

The Duggar home looks like a fancy orphanage.

[queenanne]

So the girls did not look adoringly at John-David when he said he sometimes washes his clothes, but the girls enjoy doing it.

 

Did shit hit fan when JB & M saw that?

 

*applauds him*  Maybe he'll qualify for marriage to an adult woman soon.

[Darknight]

*Used* Sports bras? Why, are underwires or good support an offence against Jesus or something? And why *hand me down* bras? Surely they can afford new bras for everyone. Even WalMart must have nice durable bras for everyone at reasonable prices.

I bet Michelle doesn't wear used bras

[Fuzzysox]

If your looking for the little ballet flats that Jessa is wearing in her latest picture, I saw them in a Kohl's catalog that I received this week. I kid you not the name of the shoe is JANA.

[Minivanessa]

For what it's worth. Who knows if this is still true.

 

http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/19-kids-and-counting/michelle-duggars-blog/homeschooling-milestones/

 

Part of the statement:

 

"Later when they're finished with their high school education, I'll have them take the GED test. It's not required in our state, but I like them to do it because it's good for them to have that certificate. That's their equivalent of finishing their high school education. Some of them will finish it at 16 years old, but everyone is different. We'll always celebrate that achievement with our own special graduation ceremony."

 

ETA; just noticed this was already posted. Oops.

 

^^^This is from the Ben/Jessa topic. Brought my reply over here.

 

It's not true that a GED is the same thing as a high school diploma. I don't think that's a fine point or a picky distinction. A GED is earned by passing a test that shows mastery of high school level subject matter. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a person getting a GED if they don't have another avenue to get a high school diploma. But as this article from 2012 - just one of many I found pretty quickly when I googled - explains: 

 

The GED was created in 1942 for the U.S. military to test World War II veterans in reading, writing, math, science and social studies. It was in lieu of a high school diploma so that returning soldiers could apply for a job or enroll in college.

... 

[Russell] Rumberger, a professor of education at the University of California, Santa Barbara, says a high school diploma means you went to school for four years, did the work, passed the classes and didn't quit. A GED, on the other hand, is a shortcut.

"The GED is better than no credential for a dropout," he says, "but it's not as good as a diploma. It doesn't replace a diploma, in terms of labor market outcomes."

 

OTOH, the GED isn't a cakewalk to pass, and does test academic subjects at a high school level. 

 

Made up of four subject area tests, the GED tests include the following subjects:

• Reasoning Through Language Arts (RLA)
• Mathematical Reasoning
• Science
• Social Studies

In addition to multiple choice and short-form answers, the test also includes extended response question and answer formats. Individuals considering taking the GED test need to study. Adult education centers across the country offer test-prep courses, and students may also purchase study books or find free practice exams and questions online.

 

 

I haven't followed the subject enough to know if it's true that "all the adult [Duggar] children" have GEDs. The only source cited for that claim - in the discussion on the Jessa/Ben forum - is an anonymous internet forum post. 

 

If they all have GEDs, that's better than nothing. But those are not high school diplomas. This isn't a rant against homeschooling in general. Just a small attempt to keep it real about the Duggars.

 

ETA: As the 2012 article notes, the GED was changed dramatically in 2014. It seems to be harder to pass the test now. I wonder if the Duggars hurried up and got some of their kids to take it before the end of 2013 before the changeover, and I wonder how many Duggar kids have taken and passed the new, harder, version.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Jeeves

[Mollie]

@Jeeves - Everything you posted is correct.  Only believe a Duggar kid passed the GED if you read it on Michelle's blog.  Jessa never passed the test!  In fact, most of the eligible Duggar kids (those 17 years or older) have NOT passed the GED : Jana, Jessa, Joseph, Josiah, Joy-Anna, Jedidiah and Jeremiah.

 

Their opportunities for gainful employment in the future are slim.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Mollie

[Minivanessa]

Their opportunities for gainful employment in the future are slim.

 

But, they have the TLC paychecks, and the boys have Daddy's businesses work at, and the girls will have Daddy find them a wonderful upstanding Christian man who will care for them. 

 

Oh, wait. About that marriage thing. The Duggars have five adult (18 or older) daughters now - and three are still waiting for Daddy to come up with a fine spouse for them. Like, you know, Bin and Derick. 

[Barb23]

Seeing Jinger's over the top Smokey Eyes last night had me thinking. In the Gothard manual, is there a section on how ladies should wear makeup? Along the lines of less is more or is it left up to the discretion of how the headship likes it? Ewww....just typing "headship" makes me skivvy.

[louannems]

http://www.duggarfamily.com/2015/2/grandpa-duggar-s-favorite-banana-cake

We know the Duggar's cannot cook from scratch, but they actually have the nerve to copyright a banana cake recipe that uses box cake mix and box pudding mix!!!

[Churchhoney]

@Jeeves - Everything you posted is correct.  Only believe a Duggar kid passed the GED if you read it on Michelle's blog.  Jessa never passed the test!  In fact, most of the eligible Duggar kids (those 17 years or older) have NOT passed the GED : Jana, Jessa, Joseph, Josiah, Joy-Anna, Jedidiah and Jeremiah.

 

Their opportunities for gainful employment in the future are slim.

 

Well, let's just hope that one day some of them get a clue and study for the test and pass it on their own. There's no time limit, so the test will still be there if anybody's eyes actually open. And there are prep classes and so on.

 

I know that the female Duggs expect to be supported by someone else (although it turns out that, after marriage, they seem to do their damnedest to prevent their husbands from holding down jobs). But I don't know how Joseph, Josiah, etc., could expect to support their future families without some credential for employment. I'm hoping this thought's at least in the back of some of their minds. ...

 

Well, honestly, I'm really hoping that some of them have secret plans in this regard. Only secret plans that have turned up so far are Josh's though, so they'll probably disappoint me.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Churchhoney

[StaceyNotStacie]

I've been following the Duggars for way too long. I was watching the news this morning and they were talking about Adam LaRoche, the baseball player who retired because he couldn't bring his son to the clubhouse every day. When I read that he was homeschooled, I started to wonder if he was his father's accountability partner.

[BitterApple]

I've been following the Duggars for way too long. I was watching the news this morning and they were talking about Adam LaRoche, the baseball player who retired because he couldn't bring his son to the clubhouse every day. When I read that he was homeschooled, I started to wonder if he was his father's accountability partner.

Lol, seriously. Who quits their job because they can't take their kid to work every day? It definitely has a Fundie ring to it, doesn't it? I could see Derick doing the same if he was still at WalMart. Jill would probably have an adjoining cubicle where she and Izzy could camp out all day.

[RedDelicious]

http://www.duggarfamily.com/2015/2/grandpa-duggar-s-favorite-banana-cake

We know the Duggar's cannot cook from scratch, but they actually have the nerve to copyright a banana cake recipe that uses box cake mix and box pudding mix!!!

 

This cracks me the hell up.  If any of us wanted to use the recipe for commercial purposes, there wouldn't be a damn thing that Boob could do about it.  But I'd love to see Boob and his LAWYR try. 

 

I'll be eating commercially prepared Grampy Duggar Cake in the prayer closet if anyone wants to join me.

 

ETA: I guess we couldn't call it Duggar cake (ew, why would anyone want to), but recipes are fair game Boob.

Edited March 17, 2016 by RedDelicious

[allonsyalice]

This cracks me the hell up.  If any of us wanted to use the recipe for commercial purposes, there wouldn't be a damn thing that Boob could do about it.  But I'd love to see Boob and his LAWYR try. 

 

I'll be eating commercially prepared Grampy Duggar Cake in the prayer closet if anyone wants to join me.

 

ETA: I guess we couldn't call it Duggar cake (ew, why would anyone want to), but recipes are fair game Boob.

 

I love the fact the felt the need to tell us how to "Duggar Size" it. Like we all have 21 people in the family. Also, I think I would put a lot of money on this not being Grandpa Duggar's favourite. 

[riverblue22]

I've been thinking for a while that Adam LaRoche had similar ideas to the Duggars.  When the kid was 11 and Adam was on the Nats he was bringing him every single day to the stadium.  When asked about school Adam said something about the kid is homeschooled, but he didn't think school was all that important anyway.  Since their very favorite thing to do is hunt, I guess they will have a lot of time for it now.

[StaceyNotStacie]

I've been thinking for a while that Adam LaRoche had similar ideas to the Duggars. When the kid was 11 and Adam was on the Nats he was bringing him every single day to the stadium. When asked about school Adam said something about the kid is homeschooled, but he didn't think school was all that important anyway. Since their very favorite thing to do is hunt, I guess they will have a lot of time for it now.

I remember his son always being at the Nationals games. I guess a winning record and good numbers also make a difference in the team allowing his son to hang around so much.

[louannems]

Lol, seriously. Who quits their job because they can't take their kid to work every day? It definitely has a Fundie ring to it, doesn't it? I could see Derick doing the same if he was still at WalMart. Jill would probably have an adjoining cubicle where she and Izzy could camp out all day.

On NPR, they said he gave up a 13 million dollar, yearly, salary!

[BitterApple]

On NPR, they said he gave up a 13 million dollar, yearly, salary!

In 2013, he was quoted as saying that he and his wife "aren't big on school." Sounds like Boob and Michelle 2.0.

In many ways I wish the Duggars would just come clean and admit they could care less about education, instead of perpetuating this homeschooling charade.

[becca3891]

I love the fact the felt the need to tell us how to "Duggar Size" it. Like we all have 21 people in the family. Also, I think I would put a lot of money on this not being Grandpa Duggar's favourite. 

Copyrighting a cake mix recipe is hilarious! And someone apparently doesn't know how to multiply 5 by 2. The original recipe calls for 5 bananas, and the double recipe calls for 8. Also, why does only the double recipe talk about poking holes all over the cake and filling them with pudding, but not the single recipe? Apparently no one proofread at all.

 

In 2013, he was quoted as saying that he and his wife "aren't big on school." Sounds like Boob and Michelle 2.0.

In many ways I wish the Duggars would just come clean and admit they could care less about education, instead of perpetuating this homeschooling charade.

At least this baseball player is being honest about it. "Not big on school" is absolutely the Gothard/Quiverfull mindset, but the Duggars know they can't' say that on national TV and keep their show. But I find it pretty ignorant for a famous major league baseball player to hold such views. He has to know how rare and lucky it is to make it big like he did.

Edited March 19, 2016 by becca3891

[Churchhoney]

In many ways I wish the Duggars would just come clean and admit they could care less about education, instead of perpetuating this homeschooling charade.

 

This is one case where they're constrained by the law, I guess. The only real requirement for homeschooling parents in Arkansas is that you pretend to care about school until the kids are 17.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Churchhoney

[riverblue22]

One more thing about Adam LaRoche.  A guy called in to talk radio yesterday and said he had been Drake LaRoche's little league coach.  He said the family was very nice but Drake often didn't show up for games--he was skipping little league to be with his dad.  I don't know what Adam plans for his son to do as a career.  If he thinks he will be a professional ball player like him, his brother, and his Dad it won't be easy without little league, high school, or college baseball.  These fundy educational choices seem so shortsighted.

 

ETA:  Just like the gothard believers, Adam LaRoche got to go to high school and play high school ball.  He went to community college and played ball.  But his own son may not get that opportunity.  It makes no sense.  Why wouldn't Dr. Paine want one of his children to have a chance to be a doctor as well?  But no, all the gothard children seem to be funneled into lawn maintenance, home repair, or small-time businesses.

Edited March 18, 2016 by riverblue22

[Barb23]

Lol, seriously. Who quits their job because they can't take their kid to work every day? It definitely has a Fundie ring to it, doesn't it? I could see Derick doing the same if he was still at WalMart. Jill would probably have an adjoining cubicle where she and Izzy could camp out all day.

  

On NPR, they said he gave up a 13 million dollar, yearly, salary!

Lou- I had to re-read your post. I thought at first you meant Derick made 13million, not LaRoche. Lol.

[StaceyNotStacie]

I was curious about LaRoche and checked out his Wikipedia page. It said he and his wife were devout Christians and that he helped organize a Faith Day at Nats Park. He also has a daughter; no age was given, but I highly doubt that she has been to the park as much as the son.

Jill was practically with Derick 24/7 when he was at Walmart. She drove him to work, went back for lunch, and then drove him home.

[NewDigs]

I have to wonder just how appropriate a major league dugout and locker room are for a child. I'm thinkin' language, spittin', horsin' around etc. that might be carried on at a more adult level.

I had no idea it was a fundie thing.

[bigskygirl]

A little reminder: This thread is about the Duggars. It is not about a baseball player homeschooling his son or taking his son to work with him on a daily basis. Keep it on the Duggars and their world. In other words, by going off topic, your posts can be edited, hidden, or deleted by the mods.

[Churchhoney]

Just for background, here are a few new Homeschoolers Anonymous posts related to the usual question -- "Why don't they just leave?" They're heartbreaking, although both these women finally did get out. Sheds light on the toxic interweaving of the sick-family dynamic mixed with the sick-cult dynamic, something that's clearly at play in the Duggars-of-Gothard empire:

 

http://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/03/14/fighting-for-hope-elliott-grace-harveys-story-part-one/

 

Something I find amusing about the three groups I was in is each of them had their own, “Here’s why we’re not a cult” speech.

Reminds me of a proverb in the christian bible, “The wicked flee when none pursue.”

Here are a few of the signs of a cult shared among all three groups:
● The leaders are always right; hierarchical and authoritarian power structure.
● Use of guilt, shame, and excommunication to manipulate and silence group members.
● Suppression of dissent, you must change your beliefs to conform to the group’s beliefs.
● Newcomers need fixing, the leaders believe they are entitled to know everything about you personally.
● Black and white thinking, contradictory messages, group specific language.
● Insistence that this group holds the source of truth; unquestionable dogma.
● Elitist and isolationist; denigrating other religious groups, and personal attacks on critics.

 

http://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/03/15/fighting-for-hope-elliott-grace-harveys-story-part-two/

 

– I’m so tired. Confused. Lonely. Lost. Down. I feel like the truth I’m looking for is somewhere staring me in the nose and I just can’t see it. I wish… I even just knew what I was looking for.
– So supposedly dad is bringing a complaint against me to the church. This is going to be a big ugly mess.
– I’ve never felt like I really could be myself or belonged anywhere but my family. Now I don’t even have that.
– I didn’t know I wanted someone who would stick with me even if I wasn’t good enough. Wasn’t perfect. Maybe there’s a person out there who could love me for me, but why not a christian? Is there such a person? Someone I could trust that much? I’m just so tired. Tired of this place.

 

http://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/03/16/fighting-for-hope-elliott-grace-harveys-story-conclusion/

 

Mars Hill Church, though a cult, was my gateway drug to separating myself from IBLP and OPC. The act of attending a church with different beliefs was radical in and of itself....

I say my past doesn’t matter that much, that I love my family and that’s all that matters. I want it to be true, but it has directed my whole life. I never want to feel like that again. I suppose that leaves me here, believing that no one on this earth will love me more than my daddy does. Desperately holding onto it. And so so lost in the reality of the life that we had.
But. As long as nothing else is better. As long every other relationship I have is worse, as long as no one measures up, I can keep believing it. I don’t have to let go. I don’t have to acknowledge, truly to myself, that it’s not all in my head. That I’m not just misinformed, that it’s not my skewed perspective. This is where the lines become so clouded that I have no idea what’s even close to true. One is so ingrained that I think (I know) I’m lying to myself to say anything else....

On the Homeschoolers Anonymous website, I poured over dozens of stories from other homeschooled kids that were carbon copies of my family, I could have written them myself. Recovering Grace detailed the dangers of IBLP, and shared stories from others that were involved in the cult. I consumed everything I could find.

“I’m not the only one. I’m not crazy.”

Over and over those words played in my mind. I started realizing the truth of what my family and these groups were, and calling it for what it was.

 

http://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/03/17/leaving-before-you-are-ready-ajs-story/

 

How easy is it to leave a cult? For me personally, the answer is “not very.”

I pay close attention to the stories of those who have left a religious cult. I admit I am a little envious of the females who made their escape from their family’s cult by marrying a man who whisked them away from it all. I wish I had that ticket available back then. It wasn’t available to me because I was terrified of men. I was especially afraid of Christian men because of the religious Christian monster my father was. And I was also scared of the so called secular, worldly men because linking up with them meant my life would be cursed with demons attacking me, and my family would cut me off. Also, there was that unspoken threat circulating in the underground Christin dating advice columns and pastor’s sermons where the non Christian man is guaranteed to cheat on you and leave you. If he doesn’t first rob a bank, then become a mass murderer. Because, gasp, that’s what people do who don’t fear God....

So I knew from  a young age that my escape was not going to be through a man. There would be no prince on a stallion. My sisters didn’t escape with the help of a man or marriage, either. They were about as gun shy of men as I was.

So how did we get out? Well, we couldn’t just leave. It seems so easy, right? Just walk out of the door.

But if we moved out of the house, God would allow Satan to attack us, destroying our physical health, mental health, finances, future career, and future relationships and marriage....

I can’t even begin to explore what would have happened if I had stayed in my parents’ house instead of leaving with my siblings during the intervention. I think it would have been an incredibly dark experience. I do know that once I started living on my own, I began to experience happiness. I did forget the horrors of the cult. I think I can honestly say that I was happy on my own. Especially when I was geographically far away from my family....

And then it hit. I was 33 and a half. The PTSD knocked me blindside, and everything fell apart. My health fell apart, even though I struggled for a year to keep myself together. I had to eventually give up my teaching career. Well, I put in for a year’s leave of absence, but my health wouldn’t allow me to go back after that year was up. I had to give up my apartment, my boyfriend left me, acquaintances disappeared, and I didn’t really have friends… the only thing I had left was my family. I had literally forgotten how strange and cruel they were....

I went back into the cult.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Churchhoney

[queenanne]

Well, honestly, I'm really hoping that some of them have secret plans in this regard. Only secret plans that have turned up so far are Josh's though, so they'll probably disappoint me.

 

"Disappointing"?  I do agree, but at least it's "not boring", lol.  He was a dark-horse surprise.

 

From your homeschooling people:

 

Also, if we left unwed to an approved man, our father said he wouldn’t be able to pray a hedge of protection around us. He said his prayer alone wouldn’t be enough to keep Satan from destroying us while we were out in the world.

 

Amazing how a batch of theoretically sentient adults, aren't smart enough to see how much this has in common with the loathed and decried "witchcraft", are they? AFAIK people who push this theory appear to be using Job 1:8, but that's so clearly poetic language/hyperbole it's shocking to me how seriously fundies have taken this as a codified principle.

[becca3891]

Ugh! I totally messed up when I said the double recipe didn't match the single. I meant to say, the single banana cake recipe called for 5 bananas and the double called for 8. I was making fun of them for their mistake and I made one of my own! Oops.

 

Just for background, here are a few new Homeschoolers Anonymous posts related to the usual question -- "Why don't they just leave?" They're heartbreaking, although both these women finally did get out. Sheds light on the toxic interweaving of the sick-family dynamic mixed with the sick-cult dynamic, something that's clearly at play in the Duggars-of-Gothard empire:

 

http://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/03/14/fighting-for-hope-elliott-grace-harveys-story-part-one/

 

Something I find amusing about the three groups I was in is each of them had their own, “Here’s why we’re not a cult” speech.

Reminds me of a proverb in the christian bible, “The wicked flee when none pursue.”

Here are a few of the signs of a cult shared among all three groups:
● The leaders are always right; hierarchical and authoritarian power structure.
● Use of guilt, shame, and excommunication to manipulate and silence group members.
● Suppression of dissent, you must change your beliefs to conform to the group’s beliefs.
● Newcomers need fixing, the leaders believe they are entitled to know everything about you personally.
● Black and white thinking, contradictory messages, group specific language.
● Insistence that this group holds the source of truth; unquestionable dogma.
● Elitist and isolationist; denigrating other religious groups, and personal attacks on critics.

 

http://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/03/15/fighting-for-hope-elliott-grace-harveys-story-part-two/

 

– I’m so tired. Confused. Lonely. Lost. Down. I feel like the truth I’m looking for is somewhere staring me in the nose and I just can’t see it. I wish… I even just knew what I was looking for.
– So supposedly dad is bringing a complaint against me to the church. This is going to be a big ugly mess.
– I’ve never felt like I really could be myself or belonged anywhere but my family. Now I don’t even have that.
– I didn’t know I wanted someone who would stick with me even if I wasn’t good enough. Wasn’t perfect. Maybe there’s a person out there who could love me for me, but why not a christian? Is there such a person? Someone I could trust that much? I’m just so tired. Tired of this place.

 

http://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/03/16/fighting-for-hope-elliott-grace-harveys-story-conclusion/

 

Mars Hill Church, though a cult, was my gateway drug to separating myself from IBLP and OPC. The act of attending a church with different beliefs was radical in and of itself....

I say my past doesn’t matter that much, that I love my family and that’s all that matters. I want it to be true, but it has directed my whole life. I never want to feel like that again. I suppose that leaves me here, believing that no one on this earth will love me more than my daddy does. Desperately holding onto it. And so so lost in the reality of the life that we had.
But. As long as nothing else is better. As long every other relationship I have is worse, as long as no one measures up, I can keep believing it. I don’t have to let go. I don’t have to acknowledge, truly to myself, that it’s not all in my head. That I’m not just misinformed, that it’s not my skewed perspective. This is where the lines become so clouded that I have no idea what’s even close to true. One is so ingrained that I think (I know) I’m lying to myself to say anything else....

On the Homeschoolers Anonymous website, I poured over dozens of stories from other homeschooled kids that were carbon copies of my family, I could have written them myself. Recovering Grace detailed the dangers of IBLP, and shared stories from others that were involved in the cult. I consumed everything I could find.

“I’m not the only one. I’m not crazy.”

Over and over those words played in my mind. I started realizing the truth of what my family and these groups were, and calling it for what it was.

 

http://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/03/17/leaving-before-you-are-ready-ajs-story/

 

How easy is it to leave a cult? For me personally, the answer is “not very.”

I pay close attention to the stories of those who have left a religious cult. I admit I am a little envious of the females who made their escape from their family’s cult by marrying a man who whisked them away from it all. I wish I had that ticket available back then. It wasn’t available to me because I was terrified of men. I was especially afraid of Christian men because of the religious Christian monster my father was. And I was also scared of the so called secular, worldly men because linking up with them meant my life would be cursed with demons attacking me, and my family would cut me off. Also, there was that unspoken threat circulating in the underground Christin dating advice columns and pastor’s sermons where the non Christian man is guaranteed to cheat on you and leave you. If he doesn’t first rob a bank, then become a mass murderer. Because, gasp, that’s what people do who don’t fear God....

So I knew from  a young age that my escape was not going to be through a man. There would be no prince on a stallion. My sisters didn’t escape with the help of a man or marriage, either. They were about as gun shy of men as I was.

So how did we get out? Well, we couldn’t just leave. It seems so easy, right? Just walk out of the door.

But if we moved out of the house, God would allow Satan to attack us, destroying our physical health, mental health, finances, future career, and future relationships and marriage....

I can’t even begin to explore what would have happened if I had stayed in my parents’ house instead of leaving with my siblings during the intervention. I think it would have been an incredibly dark experience. I do know that once I started living on my own, I began to experience happiness. I did forget the horrors of the cult. I think I can honestly say that I was happy on my own. Especially when I was geographically far away from my family....

And then it hit. I was 33 and a half. The PTSD knocked me blindside, and everything fell apart. My health fell apart, even though I struggled for a year to keep myself together. I had to eventually give up my teaching career. Well, I put in for a year’s leave of absence, but my health wouldn’t allow me to go back after that year was up. I had to give up my apartment, my boyfriend left me, acquaintances disappeared, and I didn’t really have friends… the only thing I had left was my family. I had literally forgotten how strange and cruel they were....

I went back into the cult.

That is beyond heartbreaking. It was interesting the way she said she was gun shy of men -- I have wondered for quite some time now if that's the way Jana feels. Who could blame her?

Edited March 19, 2016 by becca3891

[Marigny]

I'm a little more than halfway through I Fired God, the book several posters here have recommended, and I strongly second the recommendation for anyone struggling to understand these people, and particularly Anna. It is downright horrifying and casts disturbingly bright light on the whole "no big deal, it happens in a lot of families." At the time, I remember a lot of us thinking (and posting)  "man, what kind of f'ed up families do you know?" Well, as it turns out...Quiverfull families.

It will also totally extinguish any faint ember of hope you may have had that Anna will get herself out of this mess. She won't. At least not this time.

ETA: Some of our speculation has been eerily accurate. Like gee, it seems like they want seven year-olds to feel like irredeemable sinners. 

Yes they do.

Gee, it seems like this cult attracts sociopathic and narcissistic men. 

Yes it does.

Gee, it seems a little weird that they're so obsessed with modesty and purity and yet dry hump each other in front of their kids.

This, too, is a Quiverfull "thing". And the author does a disturbingly good job of explaining where it all comes from.

I'm on chapter 3 of this book and I spend half the time with my mouth  wide open and the other half fighting tears. Thank y'all for recommending it. 

[becca3891]

Seeing Jinger's over the top Smokey Eyes last night had me thinking. In the Gothard manual, is there a section on how ladies should wear makeup? Along the lines of less is more or is it left up to the discretion of how the headship likes it? Ewww....just typing "headship" makes me skivvy.

There absolutely IS a section on how ladies should wear makeup in a Gothard manual. I wish I could link to it but although I know I saw it a couple years ago, I can't find it. It was some nonsense about keeping the focus on your countenance, with bright eyes, and enhancing your natural, god-given beauty. And yes, I would be very surprised if it didn't also say to consult with your headship for the final word on what to wear or not wear. Honestly, the Duggar and Rodrigues girls wear far more than I was allowed to as a minor, not that I'm judging. But in the majority of Quiverfull circles, that much makeup would be frowned upon.