S04.E19: Fury Rogue

[Trini]

Quote

When Barry needs help transporting a dangerous meta, he calls on a new friend for help - Leo Snart AKA Citizen Cold (guest star Wentworth Miller). Meanwhile, Cisco becomes suspicious of Harry.

Rachel Talalay directed the episode written by Jeff Hersh & Joshua V. Gilbert

 

[BeautifulFlower]

I really don't know why they hid the fact Katie Cassidy was guest starring. 

[Primal Slayer]

Fairly enjoyable episode!

Yeah it was weird that they went all the way to Earth-X to recruit help.....and needed Snarts cold gun when Cisco is the one who built the E1 Cold Gun...but I LOVED seeing Leo again. He is so enjoyable, I just love him. Shame we can't see more of him.

Siren-X is one bad bird! I was impressed with all the ways they allowed her to use her powers, it was very creative to distinguish her from Black Siren. Though we had to rely on Leo to get the back story and of course she had to be infatuated with Oliver-X lol. They couldn't just make her pissed over Tommy-X dying? The subtle shade over the confusion over all the Black Canary's was funny though. Though this will probably bring more headache inducing fights between  with the whole "Sara was Black Canary, Laurel was 2nd Black Canary",

if it happens lol.

I feel so bad for DeVoe's wife. He treats her like shit. I can't wait till she betrays him and leads to his downfall. 

Good thing Black Siren is over this phase over on Arrow because she'd probably bond with Siren-X. Though maybe she wouldn't be into her doppelganger wanting to blow up the Earth. And all that just to be knocked out lol. So what happened to Siren-X? Did Snart take her back to his Earth? Is she still knocked out at CCPD? Did they lock her up in Star Labs like they did with Black Siren?

I'm both surprised and happy that they are having Barry deal with his guilt over letting Ralph "die".

Poor Caitlin missing Killer Frost. I'm ready for her to frost up again but Im betting that when/if it happens they will become 1 officially. Though they treated Killer Frost more like she is a cold version of Firestorm. Just without needing another living body. Oh! Forst is still there....

 I wonder why they are pronouncing Ralph as being officially dead....is it just to the therapist? Because DeVoe could easily turn up as him.

[scarynikki12]

It’s nice of Flash to acknowledge that Sara was the first Black Canary. These days Arrow forgets she exists. 

I’m going to miss Wentworth so much and I hope he changes his mind about the occasional guest appearance. Preferably on LOT but I’ll take what I can get. Leo’s got the breacher tech now so pleeeeease!

It makes sense for Barry to grieve for Ralph but I don’t care. I’m happy Ralph’s gone and I hope he doesn’t return. 

There needs to be a moratorium on pep talks. 

[mtlchick]

"I figured if you two could make it so could we."  "What?"  "I tease."

I am so going to miss Wentworth chewing the scenery like filet mignon and enjoying every second. 

Meanwhile DeVoe is becoming a major dick and NOW his wife realizes that.  

[SnoGirl]

Gah. Any version of Snart is my favorite. I hope that Wentworth decides to comes back someday, Captain Cold has become my favorite DC character. I actually had to stop watching Legends, it just wasnt the same without him. 

I did love him as Barry’s equal. He never seemed like a team member, under Barry so to speak. It made me wish even more that he was permanentely on Team Flash....his goodbyes to Team Flash were sweet. The puns, oh I think I’ll miss them the most.

 

I actually like Frost/Caitlyn’s split personality. I hope Caitlyn powers back up. I hate that all the males have special abilities and the ladies dont. Let’s spread the wealth, shall we?

[tennisgurl]

Oh my God I am going to miss Wentworth Miller. Any Snart is an awesome Snart, and its good to hear things are going better on his Earth, and with The Ray! He has yet to find a piece of scenery he doesn't want to devour and I love it. Heres hoping he comes back for at least an episode or two somewhere. 

I thought Barry's reactions in the episode worked pretty well. He feels guilty, but was trying to write it off like "people I care about die all the freaking time, I`ll get over it" when thats clearly not whats going on, and I bought it pretty much. I didnt particularly miss Ralph (even if I liked him more than most here did) but I did feel for everyone else. and even Caitlin missing Killer Frost and having mixed feelings about her. Of course, I dont think KF is gone for good. I`m not even totally sure Ralph and the other bus metas are totally gone. 

Hey, team Flash managed to actually save one bus meta! So thats 1 out of 12 lives saved! You know, even when they do beat DeVoe, if theres no way to save the dead metas, it will be something of a hallow victory. And I am still kind of bitter about all the metas dying. Unlike the last batch, most of them actually had interesting powers and personalities, and could have been good as either reoccurring villains, or occasional allies of the team. Not all of them were evil at all, which was a nice change of pace, but also makes Team Flashes inability to save them even more depressing. Of course, now it looks like poor Fallout is on DeVoes all seeing screen, so his days are probably numbered as well. 

Pretty enjoyable episode. Better than the last few certainly. 

"That was a pun. Sorry".

[shantown]

Oh come ON. Devoe really “knew” that they’d go get Leo and “knew” that Black Siren would sneak through a breach? That’s not even like “oooh he really did have a strategic plan” it’s straight up bad writing. It’s out of the realm of even comic book “believability” now. It’s just annoying to watch. If it turns out he’s taken down because Marlize turns on him this whole season will go down as my least favorite because he could predict Black Siren but not his own wife getting mad? It’s not even FUN to watch anymore. 

[SevenStars]

This episode just makes me want Raph to stay dead more than ever. 

[Lantern7]

"Hey, Joe. I've been a bit busy here at Star Cit- . . . no, I didn't hear about Laurel in Central City. Wait . . . .another Laurel?!? And she's from that Earth where everyone's a Nazi? And that version of my daughter is also a Nazi? And she came to our world? Wow. No, Joe, you did the right thing. What am I gonna do? I'm gonna drink until I die. If I'm going to Heaven, I wanna go really happy. Seriously, I got enough shit with the Laurel I got now."

Dunno who sucks harder: Diaz from Arrow or DeVoe. I like the idea of Barry having to deal with somebody without speed and with more brains. But the Thinker basically can't be beat. He's wicked smart and he can absorb powers. How many sets of abilities does he have now? It gets exhausting. Basically, it's a guarantee that the missus is gonna betray him, but he reads minds. He would see that coming. We'll end up with a Deus ex Macchina to save Barry in the very end, and that's also tiring. DeVoe has more characterization than Diaz, but it get boring to see him pants Barry over and over.

Found this on the Earth-X thread:

Quote

While we are in commercials . . .Laurel-X is totally doing her dad's work, right?

Ha! Called it! All versions of Laurel Lance suck!! And of course this one has sonic powers, because originality is hard to find sometimes. I'll give the show points for Laurel-X's echolocation abilities. I doubt Dinah or Laurel-2 will think of that. I forget . . . .did Quentin-X live past his brief appearance?

Snart is still Snart,and that's always fun. I am a bit tired of doppelgangers being the same throughout. How about a Snart without Wentworth's sarcastic delivery? Maybe from Earth-2? As much as Snart was fun, he felt too "magical" here. He comes in, gives advice and life lessons, and goes away into a magic portal.

While I'm at it . . . Tom & Jerry is a thing on Earth-X? So . . . random. If the Nazis ran that Earth, that must have been a really dark cartoon. Tom probably ate Jerry every time.

Watching Cisco and Harry, I remember an old short on the dangers of driving ragged on by Mystery Science Theatre 3000. Harry makes another cap for Cisco, all I could think was, "Hey, [nobody] never said anything about doing intensely stupid things!" Aside from Cisco putting on the mental equivalent of the Everlasting Gobstopper, what was the point? Yeah, boo hoo for Harry because somebody is smarter than him. He can't deal. He's probably the smartest guy on Earth-2. He's probably smarter than all of the Wellses out there. Well, except for Harrison-1, but he's been dead for about a decade. And now, he's gonna shed IQ points.

[Lady Calypso]

This is the first episode since the midseason finale that I've watched the entire episode.

I think Leo's appearance was wonderful, but with him having Cisco's breacher and his final line, he could actually come back for another appearance, and I hope he does. Wentworth Miller is great, and Leo is such a fantastic character. Though, yeah, his only purpose here seemed to be giving Caitlin and Barry pep talks and be their grief counselor. 

20 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Dunno who sucks harder: Diaz from Arrow or DeVoe

I'd say Diaz sucks harder because he's boring and awful. DeVoe's awful and his all knowing stuff makes no sense, but at least he can act and doesn't mumble his lines. I do feel bad for Marlize. Her husband has changed and she's pretty much lost him. Now, she sees what he is and now it'll be easier for her to do what is necessary. 

I liked the Cisco/Harry scenes a lot more than I thought I would. I feel bad for Harry, but I also know that they'll likely figure it out by early next season anyway, if not at the end of this one. 

So, I guess I can understand the Caitlin/Killer Frost stuff, but, like Ralph, I'd still rather KF stayed gone. I don't mind Caitlin having powers, but I do mind the KF stuff rearing its ugly head again.

I feel for Barry, I do, but Ralph can stay gone.

[BeautifulFlower]

Watching Iris encourage Caitlin to bring back the woman who tried to kill her was hard to watch. Killer Frost tried to MURDER Iris writers. Why did they write her to be so forgiving of things? Why can't they let iris feel things? Iris should not be acting this way. 

Is it because of 1x21 with Iris getting mad at Joe and Barry and the fandom said she shouldn't have?

[Primal Slayer]

Because Frost ended up being on their side and helped saving them numerous times?

[ottoDbusdriver]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

There needs to be a moratorium on pep talks. 

I know.  So. Many. Pep Talks.

I think Ralph had more screen time in flashbacks and Barry talking about than he ever did in any episode.  And that is not a good thing.

1 hour ago, shantown said:

Oh come ON. Devoe really “knew” that they’d go get Leo and “knew” that Black Siren would sneak through a breach? That’s not even like “oooh he really did have a strategic plan” it’s straight up bad writing. It’s out of the realm of even comic book “believability” now. It’s just annoying to watch.

How was Devoe caught up on developments on Earth-X to calculate that Siren-X was coming ?  Sure he can create pocket dimensions, but can he breach between universes yet ?  So far that answer is still a big fat no.  It really was terrible writing.

[SevenStars]

4 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I think Ralph had more screen time in flashbacks and Barry talking about than he ever did in any episode.  And that is not a good thing.

Really?? Because outside of Barry I think Raph have had the most screen time than all the other characters. Also more episodes about his struggles/issues. It sometimes even felt like Barry was playing supporting character to Raph. 

[catrice2]

So now that he is super smart and all powerful, what does Devoe want with his wife?  He doesn't want her to think, he doesn't want romance, so what purpose is she serving?  If he is drugging her, how useful is she? 

I'm glad some people enjoyed it, all of the episodes just drag to me and I don't even care about Joe or Iris.   Why can't Harry go away?  

[RedVitC]

Back with some quick commentary!

This was a fairly enjoyable episode. They went a little over the top with Barry's feelings of guilt and grief, but I appreciate when we get to explore them.

I liked Barry and Iris' scene at he end with the therapist (I always want more WestAllen, so there's that) but it would have worked just as well if it was just the two of them. I just don't get why they're constantly going to a therapist (not just Barry and Iris, the other characters as well). I would have liked if Barry had apologized to Iris.

An interesting arc for Harry. Curious how it will connect to Devoe.

From this it's pretty clear Killer Frost (they aren't calling her frost?) will be back. Just a matter of how.  

[opus]

Dumb question. Or on this show, maybe not. Does the therapist know he's the Flash?

[SevenStars]

3 minutes ago, opus said:

Dumb question. Or on this show, maybe not. Does the therapist know he's the Flash?

No

[Lantern7]

13 minutes ago, opus said:

Dumb question. Or on this show, maybe not. Does the therapist know he's the Flash?

I'd like to think so. After the Allens leave, she probably grabs a cushion and laughs hard into it, because who doesn't know Barry is the Flash at this point?

What's worse: Oliver Queen being emotional most of the time, or Barry trying to push it down deep?

ETA: For anybody who doesn't watch Legends of Tomorrow (no judgement) and didn't see Leo in the two episodes after CoEX . . . here's a picture of his way of getting that team to cope with the death of Prof. Stein. Creepily funny, right?

Edited April 25, 2018 by Lantern7

[tennisgurl]

37 minutes ago, opus said:

Dumb question. Or on this show, maybe not. Does the therapist know he's the Flash?

I am honestly somewhat convinced everyone knows Barry is the Flash, and they're all just pretending not to know as part of an elaborate prank. 

[thuganomics85]

Always great seeing Snart, no matter what version it is, which in this case is easygoing and helpful Leo from Earth X!  A little bummed that he mainly ended up being here to give Barry another pep talk, but he is admittedly good at it.  Although it look like he decided to forgo any puppets this go around unlike on Legends!  I know Wentworth Miller is more or less prepared to hang it up for good, but I hope he changes his mind, and Snart pops in from time to time in the D.C. Universe.

Oh, and we also got Earth X version of Laurel as well.  Basically, she seemed to be more powerful then almost all of the others combined and knocking down folks left and right without breaking a sweat, but then one punch from Barry seemed to put her down for good.  A bit of a glass jaw there, huh?

Ah, so the only thing DeVoe didn't account for was Barry's manpain!  Actually, it seems like the more powerful he's become, the more inhuman he is and is forgetting to take emotions into account.  He still managed to find out where they are hiding Fallout, but this could be a troubling development for him.  Especially since he really doesn't see how much harm he's causing towards Marlize, who really seems to be getting closer to her breaking point.  I'm glad that Kim Engelbrecht is getting a lot more to do now: been a fan of her since I saw her on Dominion, and I hope her career continues to get bigger.

So, the accident with the Thinking Cap is actually making Harry lose his smarts now.  Uh oh!  I guess Cisco and the rest will eventually find a way to reverse it, but if not, that would keep up the tradition of a new variation of Harry: a dumb one!

Makes sense that everyone is still shaken over Ralph, even if he's not exactly beloved by everyone in the audience.  And as trite as it can be to see angsty Barry, there is no denying that Grant Gustin is good at it.

Not a great episode exactly, but certainly a step above the rest of the "post-break" episodes, which I guess is good for now.

[KirkB]

7 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Oh, and we also got Earth X version of Laurel as well.  Basically, she seemed to be more powerful then almost all of the others combined and knocking down folks left and right without breaking a sweat, but then one punch from Barry seemed to put her down for good.  A bit of a glass jaw there, huh?

To be fair, he did hit her so hard she bent the metal railing on the second floor and then crashed back down.

I was more surprised by the fact she was able to react fast enough to know when he was starting to move and to turn and hit him with her cry. Last time I checked Barry is supposed to be able to move faster than the speed of sound.

Edited April 25, 2018 by KirkB

[Misslindsey]

Quote

Oh come ON. Devoe really “knew” that they’d go get Leo and “knew” that Black Siren would sneak through a breach? That’s not even like “oooh he really did have a strategic plan” it’s straight up bad writing. It’s out of the realm of even comic book “believability” now. It’s just annoying to watch. If it turns out he’s taken down because Marlize turns on him this whole season will go down as my least favorite because he could predict Black Siren but not his own wife getting mad? It’s not even FUN to watch anymore. 

This! So much of this. I really enjoyed the start of this season, but now I am just so tired of it. I am really tired of DeVoe. Sigh, DeVoe knows exactly how Team Flash will think outside of the box. Of course he does. If the only reason DeVoe is taken down is because Marlize turns on him I am going to be so irritated. Since it will irritate me, that means it will go down that way.

The only bright spot of the episode for me was Snart. 

[Katsullivan]

"That was  ... unbelievable timing."

I can't get over Miller's delivery of this line, and the (to me) fourth-wall-breaking look on his face when Flash & Vibe showed up. 

[Jack Kerouac]

Terrible episode. Snart was great but the writing was idiotic. Davoe apparently knows EVERYTHING now, including information about Earth-666 or Nazi Earth or whatever. But he doesn't recognize his own wife is turning against him.

Also, Bad Lipstick Siren forces Radiation Dude to take off his helmet, causing all the cops apparently lethal radiation poisoning, but Bad Lipstick Siren is totally unaffected!? How does that work?

Edited April 25, 2018 by Jack Kerouac

[BeautifulFlower]

2 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Because Frost ended up being on their side and helped saving them numerous times?

You didn't understand my comment. Like in 4x05, Iris really should not be comfortable around Caitlin or want Killer Frost. I don't care if you helped save the day plenty of times, if you actively tried to kill me for no reason at all, I'm not going to be friendly with you. The writers need stop having Iris be so forgiving and give her a POV.

[Kate45]

24 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

You didn't understand my comment. Like in 4x05, Iris really should not be comfortable around Caitlin or want Killer Frost. I don't care if you helped save the day plenty of times, if you actively tried to kill me for no reason at all, I'm not going to be friendly with you. The writers need stop having Iris be so forgiving and give her a POV.

Right. I feel like people who spent time with KF should be talking to Caitlin about her. Someone like Cisco or Harry. But, they had other storylines and Iris was available. 

[Trini]

I'm glad anytime Wentworth is around, but it was weird for me that Leo was mainly here to be ... Barry's personal grief counselor? - even during an action scene!

I get that they want Ralph's death to count, but they spent so much time being inconsistent with his story, having him unlikeable half the time, while taking up way to much of this season's story and other's screentime that I'm not sad that he's gone.

Nice to see Dr. Finkel again!

So yet another version of Laurel comes to Earth-1, and they leave her fate ambiguous - again. Not even a line about dropping her off back to Earth-X? But anyway, I liked seeing different set of sonic powers.

And they didn't even bother to give an excuse for Cisco to absent from the final fight. I hate how much he's been benched this season. But he did have a subplot with Harry. Speaking of; I hope Harry goes back to Earth-2 and stays there, because I feel he's been superfluous this season.

::sniff:: Marlize was so happy to see her husband's face again, but being 'all-knowing' apparently makes you an emotionless jerk. I'm glad Neil Sandilands is back, but I feel the writing/dialogue for him is weaker in this back end of the season. And yeah, DeVoe being all-knowing has bothered me from the start, because you can be very intelligent and a master of calculations, but you can't actually know everything.
 

21 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I know.  So. Many. Pep Talks.

Aww, it's The Flash's thing!

Edited April 25, 2018 by Trini

[cambridgeguy]

Ralph's "death" (come on, we all know he's coming back in the finale) would have more weight if he didn't spend so many episodes acting like a complete dick. 

I like seeing Snart but this show cannot have it both ways when it comes to recruiting friends from alternate Earths.  If you're going to get Snart in this episode then you should at least try to get Supergirl, J'onn, Jesse, and Jay (among others) when confronting a powerful foe like Devoe. 

Lastly, the big thing about most Flash rogues in the comics is that they aren't a bunch of murderous thugs.  Whatever happened to having villains who just like to steal things, not wipe out the city and everyone in it?

[Primal Slayer]

5 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

You didn't understand my comment. Like in 4x05, Iris really should not be comfortable around Caitlin or want Killer Frost. I don't care if you helped save the day plenty of times, if you actively tried to kill me for no reason at all, I'm not going to be friendly with you. The writers need stop having Iris be so forgiving and give her a POV.

Except this isn't reality, it's TV. Its what characters do. Barry's future self tried to kill Iris  if that isn't a relationship killer I don't know what is.

[Katsullivan]

Iris isn't in love with / getting presumably great sex from Barry --- so yeah, there is a difference. People take crap from their loved ones that they'd never take from acquaintances and strangers.

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

I like seeing Snart but this show cannot have it both ways when it comes to recruiting friends from alternate Earths.  If you're going to get Snart in this episode then you should at least try to get Supergirl, J'onn, Jesse, and Jay (among others) when confronting a powerful foe like Devoe. 

DeVoe's advantage is his mind, not his meta powers or skills so this makes sense for this season. Team Flash is already super-powered and they're constantly losing to him. 

[kirinan]

As I expected, Leo made this episode for me. I'm crossing everything crossable that this won't be Wentworth Miller's last appearance, because he and Grant Gustin have more chemistry than any other duo on this show, IMO. Plus I just freakin' love Wentworth Miller.

Otherwise, I might not even have watched this episode, and feel like I have nothing to look forward to now for the rest of this season (and this is from someone who has been an unabashed Flash fan). I hate, hate, HATE DeVoe and his arc--I have from his first episode--and I want this story to go away so I can enjoy my show again. I know this is a minority opinion, but I would rather have Ralph back. And I'd rather see time spent on the other characters' stories, like Harry and Caitlin. Please go back to having fun villains of the week, showrunners, and stop with the overarching-big-bad-who-can't-be-defeated storyline. Give me a reason to come back next season. Please?

[mxc90]

The Thinker is so smart but dumb enough to piss off a woman. It's going to bite him in the a$$!

What was the point of Barry running ahead of the truck? The Thinker can breach at any place on that route.

[benteen]

Leo was a lot of fun and he'll be missed on the show.  I'm glad Sandilands is back but I found it hilarious that UNSTOPPABLE/KNOWS EVERYTHING villain Devoe went running from any version of Laurel.  Let's make Team Flash look even weaker, guys!

This wasn't a bad episode.

[GHScorpiosRule]

LEO was EVERYTHING last night. And I also did a fist pump when Sara got the kudows she deserves about being the FIRST BLACK CANARY.

Everything else was stupid. I got Original 90210 vibes watching Barry suffer and grieve over that asshat Ralph's "death." Like when Brandon was grieving as if that asshole journalist person douche who chose Brandon as his running mate was splatted to the pavement in a car accident. Brandon was acting as if he had been his best friend, which NO. That would be Steve and Dylan. Same here with Barry. I don't CARE that he knew Ralph for years; he wasn't his friend.

I'll take as much of Wentworth Miller as I can--even if it's to shake Barry out of guilt. Because I ADORE Miller. And even if I don't see him back again soon in this 'verse, Prison Break is coming back, BABY! So YUMMILICIOUS Michael Scofield will be back, along with Linc!

And this latest thing with Devoe is the BIGGEST BUNCH of BULLSHIT. Being VERY SMART is NOT the same thing as being psychic, and that's what it's coming across as now. That he KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING. That's not how intelligence works. Unless you're also a time traveler like Marty McFly.

So Barry and Iris who are "The Flash" is just something Barry says to sound speshial? Because the way he's been acting, it seems to be Iris is just there. He should be confiding in Iris, talking to Iris; sharing his emotions with Iris. Where is the Barry that was so in love with Iris in Seasons one and two? And that INSULT of a peck on her cheek? I know this show thinks only children watch and will be TRAUMATIZED if Barry and Iris actually share an adult kiss, but the least he could have done was kiss her on the lips.

Everyone here knows that I'm a Barry apologist, but I call him out on his shit when he acts shitty, and he was acting shitty last night.

[Starry]

2 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Except this isn't reality, it's TV. Its what characters do. Barry's future self tried to kill Iris  if that isn't a relationship killer I don't know what is.

Barry's time remnant tried to kill Iris. He died. He's not coming back. Iris got to kill him. Savitar even got the decency to look ashamed when he came face to face with Iris in 3x23.

Iris is a forgiving person so it's no surprise that she let bygones be bygones with Killer Frost. The problem is that neither Killer Frost nor her host Caitlin Snow felt any shame or regret for what they did to Iris. The narrative swept that under the rug. The writers didn't forget to acknowledge Savitar's bad deeds. That's a big difference and the reason why Iris fans (at least I) are upset. It comes back to the "Caitlin Snow is a victim who can do no wrong" BS these writers are trying to push.

I am always happy to get Leo back. He's the only reason I'd even bother to watch this episode.

[shantown]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

I get that they want Ralph's death to count, but they spent so much time being inconsistent with his story, having him unlikeable half the time, while taking up way to much of this season's story and other's screentime that I'm not sad that he's gone.

The only reason I'm sad about Ralph's death is that I'm fairly sure he's "survived" inside Devoe and he'll be back at the end of the season. I can't even enjoy his death properly with his return looming over it. I don't want him to come back. That's probably not the sadness the writers were going for here.

[Kate45]

1 hour ago, shantown said:

The only reason I'm sad about Ralph's death is that I'm fairly sure he's "survived" inside Devoe and he'll be back at the end of the season. I can't even enjoy his death properly with his return looming over it. I don't want him to come back. That's probably not the sadness the writers were going for here.

I feel very confident that he's really not coming back. Plus, if they find a way to bring Ralp back and leave the other bus metas dead that would be extremely problematic for me.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Kate45

[BeautifulFlower]

2 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Except this isn't reality, it's TV. Its what characters do. Barry's future self tried to kill Iris  if that isn't a relationship killer I don't know what is.

How  are those situations the same except wanting to kill Iris part? Yes Savitar was a future time remnant of Barry, but he wasn't present day Barry. Iris and the others knew Savitar wasn't their Barry. So....why would he cause Iris and Barry's relationship to be tainted? If present day Barry tried to kill her, that would be a whole other story.

 

1 hour ago, Starry said:

Barry's time remnant tried to kill Iris. He died. He's not coming back. Iris got to kill him. Savitar even got the decency to look ashamed when he came face to face with Iris in 3x23.

Iris is a forgiving person so it's no surprise that she let bygones be bygones with Killer Frost. The problem is that neither Killer Frost nor her host Caitlin Snow felt any shame or regret for what they did to Iris. The narrative swept that under the rug. The writers didn't forget to acknowledge Savitar's bad deeds. That's a big difference and the reason why Iris fans (at least I) are upset. It comes back to the "Caitlin Snow is a victim who can do no wrong" BS these writers are trying to push.

 

Thank you. If they could write in a scene of Caitlin apologizing to Joe, then they could've done the same for Iris. Iris was the one who was affected the most as KF literally tried to murder her. I'm tired of the writers sweeping everything she did under the rug. Look at this season, they found out Caitlin worked with a villain who was a trafficker; and nothing from the team. There's no excuse for that at all. They need to have Caitlin face some consequences.

[Gregg247]

I think Iris doesn't mind if Killer Frost returns because KF proved to be completely incompetent at everything she tried, so Iris was in no danger at all. 

I love Caitlyn on the show; she's my favorite character.  But KF just shows up, dressed all cool and everything, struts around, and then gets walloped immediately.  Every single time!  She fails faster than the Washington Generals!  Either make KF a super effective villain/anti-hero, or don't bother with her at all.  We don't more super-powered cannon fodder on this show; Barry's first attempt to deal with every villain who shows up each episode gives us plenty of that.

Also, I wish Joe and the CCPD could solve more cases, or come up with the clues Team Flash needs more often.  The idea that Cisco/Harry can immediately whip up some high-tech gadget that solves the mystery of whatever's going on is getting tired.  How about some good old-fashioned police work?

[Writing Wrongs]

12 hours ago, catrice2 said:

So now that he is super smart and all powerful, what does Devoe want with his wife?  He doesn't want her to think, he doesn't want romance, so what purpose is she serving?  If he is drugging her, how useful is she? 

To fetch his coffee, maybe? I don't know either. To gloat to, I guess.

[Commando Cody]

Don't the writers ever get tired of finding ways to, randomly, insert Katie Cassidy into an episode? I know I'm tired of seeing her. I don't believe she was really necessary as a character on the show last night. 

 

An alternative theory, DeVoe has already figured on his wife turning on him and he's making his plans accordingly. Or his wife pretends to turn on him to get back on his good side. I'm leaning on the side of the obvious, woman scorned, story, or the pretend turn but he screws her over at the last second and that finally settles it for her and she finishes him. 

[Twilight Man]

15 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

"Hey, Joe. I've been a bit busy here at Star Cit- . . . no, I didn't hear about Laurel in Central City. Wait . . . .another Laurel?!? And she's from that Earth where everyone's a Nazi? And that version of my daughter is also a Nazi? And she came to our world? Wow. No, Joe, you did the right thing. What am I gonna do? I'm gonna drink until I die. If I'm going to Heaven, I wanna go really happy. Seriously, I got enough shit with the Laurel I got now."

It's been a while since I've mentioned this, but I just love when you do stuff like this, Lantern7.

15 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

While I'm at it . . . Tom & Jerry is a thing on Earth-X? So . . . random. If the Nazis ran that Earth, that must have been a really dark cartoon. Tom probably ate Jerry every time.

A long while back, when Image was actually considered a threat, and Superman was doing his electro-blue thing, The JLA teamed up with the Wildcats,

and halfway thru the team-up, Zealot mentioned Tom and Jerry, which confounded Wonder Woman.

Apparently, Tom and Jerry are the glue that unites all of the universes.

[sarthaz]

I don't get how this is supposed to play out. They've now clearly set it up that DeVoe's weakness is an inability to predict emotional response, which perfectly plays into DeWife turning on him. But that would be the most obvious result possible, so there's zero believability that he would miss that.

Anyway, the pep talks. Dear God, the pep talks.  The last three episodes have been:

- Ralph teaches Barry to improvise (even though he's improvised in every episode of the entire show)

- Barry teaches Ralph to be a pussy and gets him killed (probably)

- Snart teaches Barry to cry

So much pep-talking.

[tennisgurl]

I was kind of hoping that Leo would pull out a Ralph puppet at some point and have Barry talk to it :) 

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, Kate45 said:

I feel very confident that he's really not coming back. Plus, if they find a way to bring Ralp back and leave the other bus metas dead that would be extremely problematic for me.

It seems fairly easy to bring back Ralph if they want to and not the other bus metas. Devoe is in Ralph's body and as of last episode he made it sound like that's where he was going to stay because Ralph's body can handle his mind. 

At some point Team Flash (or Mrs. Devoe) comes up with a device to "exorcise" Devoe from Ralph's body, and welcome back Ralph.

[phoenics]

I love Snart - but this episode bored me to death.  And I found all of the manpain over Ralph to be overwrought and forced.  Ralph was such a drain on the show that seeing Barry torn up about it and having Snart spend half of his last episode with us focused on Barry's manpain was too much to stomach.

I don't even care about Harry and his intelligence drain.

I don't care about KF/Caitlin except that they finally made that storyline interesting, but Caitlin needs to apologize to Iris for trying to kill her for half a season (the ONLY reason the writers didn't have her apologize to Iris like she did to Joe is misogynoir.  PERIOD.  They don't believe Iris deserves an apology from Caitlin.)

DeVoe basically knew Barry would go and get Earth X Snart?  Really?!  How?  Does DeVoe even know about all of these other Earths?  And the people there?  Please.  He knows all of that and predicted ALL of this stuff?  Hmmm okay.  NOT.  It's unrealistic and stupid.

Especially since they are going for the angle that basically he's going to be defeated due to him not understanding that his wife is gonna betray him because he's being an ass to her.

Whatever.

What an unsatisfying season.  Season 3 was better than this.

Ralph Dibny sucked up all of the screentime and development all year - even Barry was left with little to no development - no nothing in terms of growing his powers - nothing in terms of growth as a person (feels like he's regressing) and this got so depressing and dull!  So now we've got 4 episodes (or 3) to cram all of this stuff into the end.  Waaaahhhhh!

We've barely seen Flash powers all season - Flashtime was the best episode ALL season to me just because we finally got to see some powers and cool stuff.  The episode had tension, etc..

This episode was a bust for me - even with Snart.

[BeautifulFlower]

7 minutes ago, phoenics said:

 

I don't care about KF/Caitlin except that they finally made that storyline interesting, but Caitlin needs to apologize to Iris for trying to kill her for half a season (the ONLY reason the writers didn't have her apologize to Iris like she did to Joe is misogynoir.  PERIOD.  They don't believe

Well they seem to think Iris doesn't deserve an apology from anybody who disrespects her. Just look at this episode with Barry.

[mtlchick]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Devoe is in Ralph's body and as of last episode he made it sound like that's where he was going to stay because Ralph's body can handle his mind. 

That's my rationale on this: Devoe would not mention several times now that the new host can handle everything inside of him if there wasn't some sort of end game for the writers to bring Ralph back.  Maybe it's me, but Ralph saying to Barry "You already did" (save me) is a lot more than "Well, I'm about to die, it's been real!"  Now that Devoe is inside in and knows how he operates, maybe he's going to start fighting back internally.

 

Of course, watch me be totally wrong.