S01.E15: Will You Take My Hand?

[Charlesman]

12 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

That scene made me wonder : was Culber  the only casualty on the Discovery?
(The only other that I can recall is the security chief (replaced by Ash) who tried to shoot the Spore Creature and got trampled. And of course Lorca, but he became an evil villain, so ..)

If that is correct, then Discovery got through the MU 3-part adventure and the Klingon war with barely a scratch ... which is almost unprecedented. 
... Every adventure of the Abrams nuTrek  involves scores of crew members being sucked into space and the ship being destroyed. So, yay for minimum collateral damage ..? 

 

Well, 3 dead out of, what?... like twelve total people we ever see on the ship? That's a 25% casualty rate!

[MissLucas]

Saru 

29 minutes ago, Charlesman said:

 

Well, 3 dead out of, what?... like twelve total people we ever see on the ship? That's a 25% casualty rate!

He! Memory Alpha quotes Saru in "Choose your Pain" stating that he's responsible for 134 souls (Lorca and Tyler not counting and Landry already dead). 

[huahaha]

12 hours ago, AEMom said:

I'd love to see Culber back, but I honestly don't see how they can possibly bring him back from the dead without all our eyeballs rolling back in our heads.

 

12 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

If they were planning something long-term for Culber, wouldn’t it have been foreshadowed in the last episode?

What about the green spore that entered Tilly a few episodes back? It's already been established that Hugh's consciousness was in the neural network. If not him, then what was that?

[aemom]

1 hour ago, huahaha said:

 

What about the green spore that entered Tilly a few episodes back? It's already been established that Hugh's consciousness was in the neural network. If not him, then what was that?

You make an interesting point.

When I saw that spore enter Tilly, my thoughts were that maybe it would give her confidence - it would have a strengthening effect.

I had not considered your idea. If you're right, it could be like McCoy with Spock's katra.

[Zuleikha]

I don't see how the spore could be Culber's consciousness in Tilly without things going to real bad place in terms of representation. 

I'm still shocked that there were no time travel or Mirror Universe shenanigans to bring Culber back. Even if he gets resurrected in s2 somehow, the show still ended the season with the groundbreaking gay relationship turning into a Bury Your Gays trope. And it was so unnecessary! 

[LittleIggy]

Could we have a series about the exiled Emperor Philippa roaming the galaxies kicking butts, busting heads, and sampling the erotic pleasures of distant worlds? ?

[LittleIggy]

What did Ash/Voq say Tilly was eating that made her spit it out? 

[Ceindreadh]

2 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

What did Ash/Voq say Tilly was eating that made her spit it out? 

I think it was that space whale entity that showed up in the Groundhog Day episode. The member of a very rare species (although this one looked well done ? )

[MissLucas]

Yes, it was a piece of Gormagander. This show has a weird obsession with eating: the Emperor and L'Rell were almost swapping recipes and I did enjoy L'Rell telling the Emperor she'd require seasoning - great zinger.

[paigow]

3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Yes, it was a piece of Gormagander. This show has a weird obsession with eating: the Emperor and L'Rell were almost swapping recipes and I did enjoy L'Rell telling the Emperor she'd require seasoning - great zinger.

Season 2- Star Trek: Masterchef 

[MissLucas]

We could have a spin-off with the Emperor travelling the universe as chef for hire! 

[paigow]

Beat Bobby Flay... Or Die

Bobby: Phillipa, what is your signature dish?

Phillipa: Braised ganglia in a red wine reduction...

Bobby: WTF??!!! This is not in the script....

Edited February 14, 2018 by paigow

[Biggie B]

I very much enjoyed this episode. Everything got resolved in order to move on to the next phase of the show. That said, I totally get other people's disdain of this episode, with its many flaws, but for me, I was still able to be entertained. I found the foursome's time down on the Klingon home world very reminiscent of Blade Runner, visually - the dark, wet surroundings, the food stalls, the exotic, sexual creatures, etc. So that was sort of cool, if not necessarily original. And come on, who didn't laugh out loud when Tilly got stoned?

I was sad for both Ash/Voq and Michael that they parted. Oh well - but yeah, things could never be what they were between them. Perhaps they'll cross paths again somewhere.

Michael's speech at the end was definitely overdone - initially, I was OK with it, as I thought it was just a voice over in her head, but when I saw she was saying it out loud to a large assembly, there was definitely a bit of eye rolling on my behalf. But still, it was OK - it was emotional and she was allowing her humanity to guide her words. Seeing Stamets accept his husband/partner's medal was very sad. 

I don't pay much attention to the fine details, but is it true that the show won't be back until 2019? I miss it already. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Biggie B

[tennisgurl]

Between the Klingons talking about eating Georgiou Prime and Terran Georgiou talking about eating Saru, what IS it with this show and people eating each other? Yeah, it isn't technically cannibalism, because they're different species, but they're all sentient species that can talk and hang out, so...weird. 

A bit of an anti climax for the way, but if it leads to more of an exploration themed season next year, I can get over it. Really, the whole episode didn't feel like the season finale, it just felt like a wrap up of the various plots as quickly as possible. It wasn't awful or anything, just rather blah. Also, now that Ash is gone as well, we only have three actual character now. Why? Why kill off or remove the only people we know, and not spend more time on the rest of the crew? I feel like this show has re-done itself like three times already, now it does it all over again? 

I still wish they hadn't killed Culber. Even beyond the awkwardness of killing off one half of Star Treks fist TV gay couple in the first season for a shock death, what was the point for the story perspective? Even if he does get brought back, it better be for a really cool story, because otherwise, its all just pointless drama. Even Tyler ended up leaving. Thats an issue I have with the whole season. We keep setting up characters, then they just....bye. I would say Lora is the biggest waste, but its a problem throughout the whole show. 

That being said, I did like the season overall, and I am interested in seeing where it goes next. I like that, beyond the darker and edgier stuff, which is pretty hit and miss, the show isn't afraid of just making the show (and the Federation) less ridiculously squeaky clean than it was in much of the TOS era. It has bathrooms and house music and beer pong and they visit places with gambling and whore houses,*and it makes their world more real. Also, I appreciate that the brothel they visit has male and female hookers around. Its one of my weird, specific pet peeves that in any skeevy brothel/bar in any place, be in it the future or another planet or another universe or right now, its always all female skantely clad dancers and hookers, and male patrons. Gee, I wonder why that is...

*Of course, the most interesting part of that was Lorca, and the gang making morally questionable choices, and they do still go into that, but by making Lorca an evil Terran, it kills all the moral ambiguity that he built up, and the questions he raised. Imagine that speech Michael gave about holding onto their principles, after seeing Lorca fall apart due to his own compromises in the face of war? I think it would have meant a lot more. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by tennisgurl

[paigow]

Littlefinger had an ample supply of gender diverse hookers....

one of my weird, specific pet peeves that in any skeevy brothel/bar in any place, be in it the future or another planet or another universe or right now, its always all female skantely clad dancers and hookers, and male patrons.

Edited February 13, 2018 by paigow

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Littlefinger had an ample supply of gender diverse hookers....

 

I will say that for Littlefinger. The guy was many things, but discriminatory was not one of them.

[paigow]

These Orions are certainly more progressive / customer-centric than the ones Pike met... Also these Klingons understand outsourcing....an unexpected twist....

[SourK]

Straight up, I'm not a fan of the genre where characters just react to an emergency each week and forget whatever they said or did last week, and this show started to grate on me by the end of the season. In particular, they're all in a very dangerous situation where they should be sharing information with each other as a crew, so that they can make good decisions to protect themselves, but somehow everything is a secret conspiracy.

Last episode, I didn't understand why Starfleet wanted to lie to the Discovery crew about who Georgiou was -- the excuse was that no one could know the mirror universe existed, but obviously everybody on the ship already knew that. This episode, the idea of keeping it secret went right out the window, when it was apparently fine to tell Ash and Tilly. If you're just gonna tell everyone who has to interact with her personally, and she's not under any pressure to pretend to be someone else, why not just tell the truth from the beginning?

Other things that went right out the window: Tyler's PTSD. I guess nothing the Klingons did to him as Ash Tyler matters now that he also remembers being Voq?

I think what the show intended with L'Rell is that she always had the heart of leader and didn't believe in herself, so now that she does believe in herself, the Klingons will naturally follow her. I'm not sure they dramatized it very well, but that's what I took away from the speeches. The part that troubles me is that I don't see any reason why L'Rell should wish to end the war against the Federation, now that they've given her their bomb controls. She didn't like that the houses weren't united anymore, but I don't see any reason why she couldn't just unite them and keep the war going.

I don't know what to think about Stamets and Culber. It seems to me like nobody put much thought into how it would play to kill off half of a happy gay couple -- which, unfortunately happens all the damn time in TV and movies. The only way out I could see is the speech about how, if people knew their loved ones were alive in the mirror universe, they'd do anything possible to see them again. Stamets is the only person who both knows about the mirror universe and has the technical ability to go there, so that could happen. But, with the actors saying it won't... I think it was just an insensitive decision. They were so busy patting themselves on the back for having gay characters that they kind of didn't do their homework and repeated a bunch of cliches.

 

On 2/13/2018 at 8:02 AM, paigow said:

Season 2- Star Trek: Masterchef 

 

On 2/13/2018 at 10:17 AM, paigow said:

Beat Bobby Flay... Or Die

Bobby: Phillipa, what is your signature dish?

Phillipa: Braised ganglia in a red wine reduction...

Bobby: WTF??!!! This is not in the script....

Spoilers, but the ganglia came from another contestant.

[David T. Cole]

On 2/13/2018 at 7:20 AM, paigow said:

one of my weird, specific pet peeves that in any skeevy brothel/bar in any place, be in it the future or another planet or another universe or right now, its always all female skantely clad dancers and hookers, and male patrons.

Down with the patriarchy!

[MissLucas]

2 hours ago, SourK said:

Other things that went right out the window: Tyler's PTSD. I guess nothing the Klingons did to him as Ash Tyler matters now that he also remembers being Voq?

This! There was some immense story-telling potential about his torture/sexual abuse that was just never explored. He was really just there for Burnham to fall in love with the enemy and then to act as Google Qo'noS.

This show sacrificed three great characters with lots of potential within one season.

[Emily Thrace]

On 2/14/2018 at 5:35 PM, MissLucas said:

This! There was some immense story-telling potential about his torture/sexual abuse that was just never explored. He was really just there for Burnham to fall in love with the enemy and then to act as Google Qo'noS.

This show sacrificed three great characters with lots of potential within one season.

I  doubt Ash is gone for good actually. He was a very popular character who was part of a popular pairing and showrunners pay attention to that these days.  As has been noted the Klingon war entered quite differently in Canon.  I wouldn't be surprised if he comes back to warn Starfleet of an invasion after L'Rell is deposed. I suspect this is a reprieve in the war not its end. TPTB probably wanted to wrap things up in case they weren't renewed.

[MissLucas]

Yeah, it's possible they bring him back (he's still alive after all unlike Culber and Lorca) although I hope they don't - the character is conceptually too messed up. But he has been a fan favorite though who knows. 

[Starchild]

Guys I still don't understand what happened to Ash/Voq. Help me out?

The way Ash described the process, the Klingon body was transformed into a copy of the human body, and the human mind was grafted onto the Klingon one. Meaning the real Ash is probably dead, or anyway Ash's real body would have been disposed of after his consciousness was ripped out or copied. And then afterwards, on the Discovery, to save Voq's sanity, L'Rell did something that actually caused Voq's consciousness to be forever lost, leaving Ash's consciousness in a Klingon body mutilated to look like his own.

Is that right?

[Sesquipedalia]

Well, that was anticlimactic.

Tilly and Georgiou stole the show for sure, and I'm glad Georgiou lives so she can come back and cause trouble, although her departure was, again, anticlimactic.

On 2/13/2018 at 9:58 AM, Biggie B said:

initially, I was OK with it, as I thought it was just a voice over in her head, but when I saw she was saying it out loud to a large assembly, there was definitely a bit of eye rolling on my behalf

Same. It was a long, repetitive, and overwrought speech that made a lot more sense as something spoken to the viewing audience. Why would she be saying all that in front of the crew?

Question: Didn't L'Rell rape and torture Ash? I can't believe he would go off with her like that. And I don't see why Starfleet wouldn't accept him back into the fold. He would be extra valuable now that he has inside knowledge of a hostile species, like Seven of Nine on Voyager.

 

On 2/14/2018 at 2:59 PM, SourK said:

They were so busy patting themselves on the back for having gay characters that they kind of didn't do their homework and repeated a bunch of cliches.

Yep.

[ahisma]

3 hours ago, Starchild said:

The way Ash described the process, the Klingon body was transformed into a copy of the human body, and the human mind was grafted onto the Klingon one. Meaning the real Ash is probably dead, or anyway Ash's real body would have been disposed of after his consciousness was ripped out or copied. And then afterwards, on the Discovery, to save Voq's sanity, L'Rell did something that actually caused Voq's consciousness to be forever lost, leaving Ash's consciousness in a Klingon body mutilated to look like his own.

Is that right?

Yup, that is exactly the way I read it. (Honestly, I expect that is original!Ash's skin laid over the body, because Klingon skin ... just, no.)

1 hour ago, Sesquipedalia said:

Didn't L'Rell rape and torture Ash?

I think what that was: L'Rell and Voq had a love affair. Ash was getting flashbacks of Voq's memories. I am not sure whether it was visually L'Rell/Ash because the lovemaking happened after the surgery or because it was Ash having the memory and he imagined it as himself. The torture was Ash getting Voq's memories of L'Rell doing the surgeries to de-Klingonize his body. After Voq's personality was removed, Ash didn't have the overwhelming sensations of the lived experience, just a more academic knowledge of Voq's memories. 

[MissLucas]

5 hours ago, ahisma said:

Yup, that is exactly the way I read it. (Honestly, I expect that is original!Ash's skin laid over the body, because Klingon skin ... just, no.)

I think what that was: L'Rell and Voq had a love affair. Ash was getting flashbacks of Voq's memories. I am not sure whether it was visually L'Rell/Ash because the lovemaking happened after the surgery or because it was Ash having the memory and he imagined it as himself. The torture was Ash getting Voq's memories of L'Rell doing the surgeries to de-Klingonize his body. After Voq's personality was removed, Ash didn't have the overwhelming sensations of the lived experience, just a more academic knowledge of Voq's memories. 

It probably was like that though it does not quite match with what Ash told Lorca on the prison ship where it sounded as if the rape had been going on to the moment he was dropped into the cell with Lorca.  But since nothing about the timeline of Voq's transformation matches up with what we saw on screen that's hardly surprising.

[paigow]

13 hours ago, Starchild said:

Guys I still don't understand what happened to Ash/Voq. Help me out?

 

..and some of the writers too....

[Sesquipedalia]

Thanks for the explanation, ahisma. So all or most of the bad stuff happened to Voq, so now the memories don't feel personal to Ash anymore. I guess we'll have to buy that.

I just remembered a really trivial thing I liked from this episode: Michael's communication device looks almost just like my flip phone, which everyone makes fun of me for still using. I know they will make a comeback!

[ahisma]

I still have my flip phone, too. Because I've been a Trekkie for over 40 years—communicators forever! :-)

[Pippin]

On 2/13/2018 at 11:49 AM, tennisgurl said:

Yeah, it isn't technically cannibalism, because they're different species, but they're all sentient species that can talk and hang out, so...weird. 

Well, just to play Devil's Advocate, we eat dolphins, whales and monkeys and there's tons of evidence that they're self-aware and can communicate, and some people eat cats, and I don't know about you, my friend, but my cat is certainly sentient!

[LilJen]

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 6:38 PM, shrewd.buddha said:

That scene made me wonder : was Culber  the only casualty on the Discovery?
(The only other that I can recall is the security chief (replaced by Ash) who tried to shoot the Spore Creature and got trampled. And of course Lorca, but he became an evil villain, so ..)

If that is correct, then Discovery got through the MU 3-part adventure and the Klingon war with barely a scratch ... which is almost unprecedented. 
... Every adventure of the Abrams nuTrek  involves scores of crew members being sucked into space and the ship being destroyed. So, yay for minimum collateral damage ..? 

Well, you see, on this version of Star Trek, there is no collection of nameless red-shirted people to go on the away teams to meet an unfortunate demise. Good luck working THAT into the canon, writers!! :)

[DarkRaichu]

When Lorca gave MB tour of Discovery (ep2?), he boasted the many experiments on the ship with Spore drive being 1 of those.  Yet, when they were stranded in mirror universe or when they returned to original universe, NONE of the other experiments was used or even mentioned????  How incompetent is this version of Starfleet ?? I could understand if they were not experienced in war, but to be crappy scientists as well ????

Edited February 27, 2018 by DarkRaichu

[huahaha]

On 2/16/2018 at 8:11 PM, Starchild said:

Guys I still don't understand what happened to Ash/Voq. Help me out?

The way Ash described the process, the Klingon body was transformed into a copy of the human body, and the human mind was grafted onto the Klingon one. Meaning the real Ash is probably dead, or anyway Ash's real body would have been disposed of after his consciousness was ripped out or copied. And then afterwards, on the Discovery, to save Voq's sanity, L'Rell did something that actually caused Voq's consciousness to be forever lost, leaving Ash's consciousness in a Klingon body mutilated to look like his own.

Is that right?

When you put it that way, it sounds really stupid. Wait...

[shrewd.buddha]

On 2/26/2018 at 12:37 PM, DarkRaichu said:

When Lorca gave MB tour of Discovery (ep2?), he boasted the many experiments on the ship with Spore drive being 1 of those.  Yet, when they were stranded in mirror universe or when they returned to original universe, NONE of the other experiments was used or even mentioned???? 

The producers/writers really dropped the ball on the entire Lorca story line. With Lorca gone, and reduced to being crazy-evil villain, I highly doubt that Lorca's huge quarters and collection of artifacts and experiments will ever get mentioned again. Maybe there will be some throwaway reference to Lorca at some point the future. 

Also - since the Mirror Universe does not officially exist : Phillipa is considered to be alive and is an AWOL Starfleet officer.  And Lorca is believed to have been heroic, but killed in action during a space mission. 

Maybe someone will start a topic for a Season One retrospective. The producers really seemed to be swinging for the fences, in terms of big ideas - but they really didn't seem to think things through or nail the landings:

• The actions Michael attempted at the beginning of the season versus the actions she took to end the Klingon war - because of what she learned during the season.
• Michael's initial feelings toward Klingons because they killed her parents versus her falling in love with a Klingon (but, you know, not really a Klingon at all). 
• The whole Mirror Universe experience with the ideas how people might be completely different if born under different circumstances - - and if people are still the same at their core.
• The ideas of identity - and if you lose your identity if you abandon your principals in order to defeat your enemy by playing by their rules instead of sticking to your own.
• Etc.

I am curious as to how they will approach Season Two. It does not seem possible for the whole thing to be focused on  Michael Burnham again. Season One seems to have really told her story all the way from childhood. Could she possibly have some other childhood trauma to overcome over the course of a full season? 

Edited March 1, 2018 by shrewd.buddha

[legaleagle53]

8 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

since the Mirror Universe does not officially exist

That explains why when Kirk, Scotty, McCoy, and Uhura first encounter the Mirror Universe a mere ten years later, they've never heard of it. Apparently, the Federation was so embarrassed by the catastrophes that beset the Discovery's first encounter with it that they forbade it ever being taught or even discussed as a part of Federation history.

[Starchild]

On 2/28/2018 at 7:44 AM, huahaha said:

When you put it that way, it sounds really stupid. Wait...

Right? If the grafted consciousness is the stronger one, why not just graft Voq into Ash and be done with it? Way too convoluted the way they did it.

[Clanstarling]

On 2/12/2018 at 6:41 AM, marinw said:

One of the few things that got to me emotionally in this episode was the shot of Stamets holding Culber’s posthumous medal. Those two were the only shippable pairing on this show IMHO

 

Me too. The all too brief relationship between Stamets and Culber was the only one I had any emotional investment in. Ash/Burnam didn't give me the feels, because I never really bought their love - ever. But Culber and Stamets, they felt like a real couple to me from the get-go. I was so hoping that when they returned from the Mirror Universe, they'd come back earlier than his death (yeah, paradoxes and all that - but if they can handwave a galactic war, they can handwave paradoxes).

On 2/13/2018 at 8:49 AM, tennisgurl said:

Between the Klingons talking about eating Georgiou Prime and Terran Georgiou talking about eating Saru, what IS it with this show and people eating each other? Yeah, it isn't technically cannibalism, because they're different species, but they're all sentient species that can talk and hang out, so...weird.

 

A bit of a cheap shorthand for telling us how awful they are. Even if it isn't technically cannibalism, we know these characters as individual beings, so it is so much more disgusting.

On 2/14/2018 at 12:59 PM, SourK said:

I think what the show intended with L'Rell is that she always had the heart of leader and didn't believe in herself, so now that she does believe in herself, the Klingons will naturally follow her. I'm not sure they dramatized it very well, but that's what I took away from the speeches. The part that troubles me is that I don't see any reason why L'Rell should wish to end the war against the Federation, now that they've given her their bomb controls. She didn't like that the houses weren't united anymore, but I don't see any reason why she couldn't just unite them and keep the war going.

That was probably the intent, but I'm not sure why a self-actualized L'Rell wouldn't turn into an assassinated L'Rell pretty darn quickly, unless she had a dead man's switch on that bomb control.

 

On 2/16/2018 at 8:37 PM, ahisma said:

Yup, that is exactly the way I read it. (Honestly, I expect that is original!Ash's skin laid over the body, because Klingon skin ... just, no.)

I think what that was: L'Rell and Voq had a love affair. Ash was getting flashbacks of Voq's memories. I am not sure whether it was visually L'Rell/Ash because the lovemaking happened after the surgery or because it was Ash having the memory and he imagined it as himself. The torture was Ash getting Voq's memories of L'Rell doing the surgeries to de-Klingonize his body. After Voq's personality was removed, Ash didn't have the overwhelming sensations of the lived experience, just a more academic knowledge of Voq's memories. 

I think that's how they handwaved the story line. But if Ash's consciousness was there - then he was experiencing rape, whether or not the other mind in his body was. Voq's personality wasn't removed, IIRC, just detached .

On 2/22/2018 at 9:41 AM, Pippin said:

Well, just to play Devil's Advocate, we eat dolphins, whales and monkeys and there's tons of evidence that they're self-aware and can communicate, and some people eat cats, and I don't know about you, my friend, but my cat is certainly sentient!

We? Where do you go to dinner? ;) I am revolted by the thought of eating any of those, even though I'm not a vegan. (yeah, hypocrisy is a  moveable point on a scale).

I enjoyed seeing Clint Howard on the show. But for all the call backs to the Star Trek universe, this show hasn't felt like it had much in the way of Star Trek DNA. I've enjoyed it. And think, for all of its flaws, it's pretty good on its own merits, but it just isn't Star Trek at heart for me.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Pippin]

11 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

We? Where do you go to dinner? ;) I am revolted by the thought of eating any of those, even though I'm not a vegan. (yeah, hypocrisy is a  moveable point on a scale).

I see your smiley face, clanstarling, and return you one --  :) -- but seriously, they eat dolphins and whales in Japan, and IIRC, monkey meat is eaten in Africa and India.  Cats and dogs are eaten in the orient.  I'm not a vegan either, but I believe it's possible to be ethical and eat meat -- free range, cruelty free, etc.

Although if cloning technology continues to advance, we could get to the point where cuts of meat could be cloned without recourse to slaughtering an animal.  If it meant less suffering for our fellow critters in the world, I'd eat it.  One step closer to replicating (to keep this post somewhat on topic!)

[Clanstarling]

11 hours ago, Pippin said:

I see your smiley face, clanstarling, and return you one --  :) -- but seriously, they eat dolphins and whales in Japan, and IIRC, monkey meat is eaten in Africa and India.  Cats and dogs are eaten in the orient.  I'm not a vegan either, but I believe it's possible to be ethical and eat meat -- free range, cruelty free, etc.

Although if cloning technology continues to advance, we could get to the point where cuts of meat could be cloned without recourse to slaughtering an animal.  If it meant less suffering for our fellow critters in the world, I'd eat it.  One step closer to replicating (to keep this post somewhat on topic!)

I agree, and am aware of the other places - went for the joke. What can I say, I'm shallow. :) Nevertheless, (to keep it on topic) beings that actually speak to you should be off limits (and I know, there are places...).

I believe they're comparing these "early" Klingons with our own earlier warrior cultures where eating your defeated opponents was a means of both honoring and gathering strength from them. But this seems like a needless slur on the Klingons. I'm not an Trekker, but I have watched all of the shows, and don't recall this ever being attributed to them.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Pippin]

On 3/8/2018 at 9:10 AM, Clanstarling said:

But this seems like a needless slur on the Klingons. I'm not an Trekker, but I have watched all of the shows, and don't recall this ever being attributed to them.

ITA.  But when it comes to Klingons, canon is all over the place.  I'm still trying to figure out why these guys look more like the reptilian Xindi than anything else, when according to both TOS and ST: Enterprise, there should be some smooth fore headed guys out there.  Then again, Kor and Koloth both had smooth foreheads on TOS and the bumps on DS9, so who know?

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, Pippin said:

ITA.  But when it comes to Klingons, canon is all over the place.  I'm still trying to figure out why these guys look more like the reptilian Xindi than anything else, when according to both TOS and ST: Enterprise, there should be some smooth fore headed guys out there.  Then again, Kor and Koloth both had smooth foreheads on TOS and the bumps on DS9, so who know?

Well, in my favorite DS9 episode when they time traveled to the Tribble episode, Worf did say "we don't talk about it" - so I guess they can change up all they want. But yeah, I would like some consistency in their appearance, not just makeup artists rubbing their hands together and saying "what new and undiscovered faces can we come up with for the Klingons"

[paigow]

On 2/28/2018 at 10:12 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

I highly doubt that Lorca's huge quarters and collection of artifacts and experiments will ever get mentioned again. ... Tribbles were also deleted from the logs so Kirk could not have any idea what to do with Cyrano Jones....

[Ottis]

Finally finished this series. Loved the world building, and some of the characters. Didn't love the plot of the last 3-4 episodes. Too many examples of villains listening to good guys instead of outright shooting them, too many improbably successes.

More than that, though, there was both too much going on this season, and then, at the end, not enough. Starting with the rise of the Klingons, then jumping into another universe, then realizing the jump was on purpose due to Mirror!Lorca, then battling the emperor, then coming back to find the Federation losing to the Klingons, then the ending. The show would have worked better IMO with either only the Klingon war, or only the mirror universe. Either one could have been examined in more detail.

At the end, the final episode was a whimper. I was expecting some kind of tense space battle with a clever ruse that wins the day. Instead we end up at an inexplicable Farscape-like cantina, where humans aren't killed on sight during a war against them, and the winning move was a highly improbably threat of a bomb that no one can actually see or understand when the threat is made. This episode felt like it should have occurred 1-2 episodes ago. The ending was unsatisfying.

That said, I have to praise the show for making the ending about something. The recent Star Trek movies miss this again and again. Star Trek was always about higher ideals and moral lessons, and while it was admittedly heavy handed and cheesy at times (like Michael's speech - why was she talking, and who was she talking to? A council of some kind was in front of her, but way more people were behind her), the conclusion was indeed about something. Thank you for that. Just please use a lighter touch next time?

Finally, I recognized Clint Howard immediately - very nice, show. And I, a Star Trek fan for 50+ years who loves the franchise (well, except for Enterprise) and all it stands for, don't give a single shit that the Klingons look different. It makes no meaningful difference.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Ottis

[John Potts]

Well, that was anti-climatic. I suppose it was in keeping with the first Season of every Star Trek series that it had promise but was ultimately unsatisfactory as a Season. So yay?

OK, I know she's evil and all, but... I can't help thinking the Empress is right. Michael is acting stupidly. I mean, even if you agree that they had to do the moral thing rather than the sensible thing, the way she went about it was idiotic. If she wants to depose the Empress, don't just passive-aggressively snipe at her on the bridge, expose her as an impostor. Undermining the Captain on the bridge (but leaving her in place) is not a good idea when you're deep in enemy territory!

Was anyone else surprised Tilly threw up at eating space whale? It's meat, people eat whale meat even on Earth (though maybe not by 22-whatever). They could have said it was human meat and then I'd understand throwing up.

Errm, guys - the heart to heart in the brothel/drug den was very touching, but you're on the clock here. Never mind what the Empress might be up to!

Liked ending on the original theme.

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 2:11 AM, ottoDbusdriver said:

 The whole Klingon war wrapped up way too conveniently and easily -- the Klingons were basically on Earth's front porch, and they decided to go home.  Seriously ?

It's lucky they were all listening to their Subspace radios for "Tales from the Homeworld" and that none of the divided Klingon houses decided to forge on ahead to bomb Earth itself, given how close they were. They (apparently) didn't know what L'Rel was going to do, so they had no real reason to head back home.

Also, why would the Empress be pursued by the Federation for blowing up Chronos? It was what she was sent there to do (I think we can assume she had secret orders from Sarek and/or Adm. Cornwell, given their comments afterward)!

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 2:24 AM, marinw said:

Did anyone else roll their eyes at Michael’s speech at the end?

You're not alone. Maybe not quite "Gazelle Level", but it was just interminable. And why was it Michael giving the speech and not Captain Saru?

Having watched this on DVD, the episode included a deleted scene of Section 31 recruiting Empress Giorgiou, which I would have kept in and cut (or at least, cut down) the medal scene.

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 6:24 AM, thuganomics85 said:

But unless she figures out some kind of backup plan, I don't see how the other Klingons don't just kill her and take it from her, the first chance they get.,,

 At least they were equal opportunity in the "ass in G-strings" front!

Presumably, she can figure some way to set up a "dead man" (or rather, dead Klingon) switch.

And yes, I thought it was progressive to show as many bare-assed men as women (and was also reminded of Littlefinger's brothel in King's Landing).

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 6:04 AM, paigow said:

Gay or straight...dead is dead where humans are concerned.

Humans come back from the dead* all the time in Trek. Kirk "died" in Amok Time (TOS), Generations and Star Trek (2009) but came back each time (only briefly in the case of Generations), Picard "dies" in Lonely Among Us and Gambit, Tasha Yar dies in Skin of Evil but comes back in Yesterday's Enterprise. The record would probably be Scottie who came back 75 years after his supposed demise in Relics. Death is about as permanent in Trek as it is in comic books!

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:03 PM, cali1981 said:

Mia Kirshner looked beautiful

She did indeed. I also can't help being amused by the fact that the actress I will always think of as "Naked Mandy" (wow, 18 years ago) is again playing somebody called Amanda!

* For certain values of "dead" at any rate.

[azshadowwalker]

On 2/12/2018 at 4:38 PM, shrewd.buddha said:

If that is correct, then Discovery got through the MU 3-part adventure and the Klingon war with barely a scratch ... which is almost unprecedented. 

I finally watched this 2 years later, and this bothered me all season. The formidable Klingons weren't so formidable at all. This has been true in every Trek series. Other than Tasha, main members of the crew are never really in danger, but it bothered me more this time. Maybe I am just tired of Trek or maybe it's because this is a younger Federation. They just seemed to have too much overwhelming technology and tactics. 

 

[Affogato]

On 3/8/2018 at 9:10 AM, Clanstarling said:

I agree, and am aware of the other places - went for the joke. What can I say, I'm shallow. 🙂 Nevertheless, (to keep it on topic) beings that actually speak to you should be off limits (and I know, there are places...).

I believe they're comparing these "early" Klingons with our own earlier warrior cultures where eating your defeated opponents was a means of both honoring and gathering strength from them. But this seems like a needless slur on the Klingons. I'm not an Trekker, but I have watched all of the shows, and don't recall this ever being attributed to them.

Late to this message but I am just rewatching the first season of TNG. Two mentions, different episodes, where the Klingons say "just an empty shell, do whatever you want with the bodies", or words to that effect. So eating them to imbibe the strength of your ancestors is at odds with that. Then again, if there were periods of famine (and constant fighting would tend to lead to that) eating the empty shells for nutrition wouldn't be irrational. dumping them into the replicator compost bin (whatever it is called) would also make a certain amount of sense. 

[Tachi Rocinante]

Ron Howard's brother is always good for a laugh.

I fast-forwarded through the speech.

[rmontro]

I had heard bad things about this series, so I've been waiting for things to go south.  Because when I started watching, I was really enjoying it, and thought it was well done.  I thought the spore drive was a bit of stretch, but whatever.  Then they spent too long in the mirror universe, but okay, it was still good.  

This episode though, things come crashing down.  Fist off, the solution to the Klingon war, I'm not buying it.  Even if you believe the Klingons would respond to blackmail (with honor) and call off the war, sounds like humanity was on the brink of extinction.  But it was more important that the Federation didn't get their hands dirty?  I'm just not buying it.

Second, Michael Burnham has come off as the Mary Sue savior of the universe and all things clever and good just one too many times.  And third, that speech she gave was cringe inducing, and it seemed like it would never end.  So she saves everyone, she's the conscience of the universe, and to top it off, she won't shut up about it.

I did get a chill seeing the original Enterprise though.  It was kind of like, hey here's Lucy and Ricky Ricardo's apartment, wanna see it?  It's that iconic.

[Maverick]

 Yeah, the spore drive is beyond ridiculous.  It might have (barely) been plausible if it had been set in Trek's future but having something like that in the pre-Kirk era was just dumb.  Yeah, I know it was "classified" (yet nothing was dire in the future they decided to unclassify it and try it again).  The mirror universe was known before Kirk, but it was classified.   Apparently the Klingons being on Earth's doorstep was classified too, since it was never mentioned again (and even Martok said after the Breen attack that even his people had never been bold enough to attack Earth).   I don't get why they keep doing prequels if they want to do their own thing.   Just set it in the future.

 And I totally agree the way Michael is written is just not interesting.  Phillipa loves her.  Lorca loves her.   The Emperor loves her enough to not be the vapid, violent savage that the rulers of the Terran Empire are.  Hell, she even got Sarek to show more overt  emotion to her than he ever did to Spock.   Even in TOS where we're repeatedly told Kirk is the bestest hot shot Captain evah, he doesn't solve everything by himself.   Spock, McCoy and the others are experts at their jobs, he lets them do them and they all contribute (other than bedding the hot alien chick of the week--Captain's prerogative and all).   I don't understand the point of telling the story not from the captain's point of view (which really isn't what happened in the other shows) and what they're doing here.  

[ctlady]

Hub and I just finished binge watching the first season.  Well done and the end has me excited for S2

However, judging from some of the comments here I think I'm in the minority regarding Tillie.  I think she's a babbling, childish, immature and irresponsible - especially when she was charged with protecting the 'drone' and decided to take a hit of something she didn't know what it was and passed out.  And she gets a medal in the end.  Whatever