S02.E11: The Fifth Wheel

[Dreamboat Annie]

Drinking and driving is so wrong, always.  But I don't think the "real" Kevin would do that.  He would not want to hurt anyone.  It was too easy to forget, with everything else going on in this episode, that Kevin is a drug addict.  He is in rehab because he is a drug addict.  Thank goodness no one was hurt by his actions, but what a wake up call.  I will never blame him that Tess was in the car, which is why I think, and I echo fellow posters here, Beth was so pissed.  I am increasingly disliking Beth. 

[tennisgurl]

I honestly wish we could watch an Alternate Universe episode where Jack was still alive sometime, just to see how the whole Saint Jack thing would play out with a parent who had been alive longer. Its easier to deify a parent who died when the family was still pretty young, but dealing with a parent who you knew as an adult as well, and who you can actually confront? I think the story would be pretty different. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Blakeston]

So while Rebecca was completely torn over what to do about Kate's weight - wanting to address her overeating, but not wanting to make her feel self-conscious - Jack was taking her out for daily ice cream trips? And trying to keep it secret from his wife?

Some freaking saint. If I were Rebecca, would have been absolutely furious with him.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Blakeston

[stonehaven]

I'll echo everyone's sentiments but Rebecca's statement about feeling abandoned will come back in some way...Intense and revealing episode...and I will say the Warner Wolf shout out had me cheering...

[Lady Calypso]

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I honestly wish we could watch an Alternate Universe episode where Jack was still alive sometimes, just to see how the whole Saint Jack thing would play out with a parent who had been alive longer. Its easier to deify a parent who died when the family was still pretty young, but dealing with a parent who you knew as an adult as well, and who you can actually confront? I think the story would be pretty different. 

Oh hey, I am 100% positive that that episode is going to come at some point for a Very Special Episode, probably some sort of dream sequence of Randall's.

7 minutes ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

Drinking and driving is so wrong, always.  But I don't think the "real" Kevin would do that.  He would not want to hurt anyone.  It was too easy to forget, with everything else going on in this episode, that Kevin is a drug addict.  He is in rehab because he is a drug addict.  Thank goodness no one was hurt by his actions, but what a wake up call.  I will never blame him that Tess was in the car, which is why I think, and I echo fellow posters here, Beth was so pissed.  I am increasingly disliking Beth. 

I think, when it comes to Beth, she's always going to find a way to blame Kevin, whether it's his fault or not. She has a good reason to not like him; he's not been kind to Randall. In fact, Kevin and Randall are still working on their relationship. And, Kevin's fault or not, Tess was in the car. She could have gotten hurt. And Beth has her blinders on when it comes to that. Which is fair of her to do, and she also mentioned that he could have hurt people out on the road (though I disagree partially with her line about Kevin consciously getting behind the wheel, because that was something that spirals into the complexities of addiction and how responsible the addict is once they get into a vicious cycle of addiction). It's really hard to draw a line there, I think 

I think I'm irritated with some of Beth's anger, but I completely understand it. It's really nice to see this type of family dynamic, because it does happen in families and TV shows don't often show the ugly side to siblings and their spouses. I do think Beth's main problem is that she has her own judgments on Kevin and she's so stubborn that it's going to take a lot for Beth to take a step back from her own subjective opinion of Kevin and see things in a wider perspective. That's where her flaws come in. 

I also think Beth and Randall have similar personalities, in that they can be judgmental and condescending. I don't think they realize how they judge others, but they really, really do. And I think it's just as important to recognize their flaws, which I've become increasingly aware of this season. As Kevin pointed out, Tess ran away because Randall brought William and Deja into the household, knowing that it wouldn't be permanent. They didn't sit and think about their kids, which hopefully is the thing that Randall takes away from the therapy session. 

[memememe76]

Loved the episode. I felt that everyone felt consistent with their selves. Good mix of intensity and humour.

Also, I am with Randall. I loved Boyhood too.

[BuckeyeLou]

26 minutes ago, Conotocarious said:

I think she meant it was easier to bond with the child who didn’t push her away and act all surly with her. Not that Randall was easy to raise with his many facets but that he was just easy for her to bond with.

Yes, and the scene where Rebecca & Randall are seated side by side at the cabin reading books, while Kevin plays with his football and Kate has ice cream with her father.  So Rebecca & Randall always had things in common, they enjoyed reading & books and more 'quiet" activities while Kevin was all about sports.  

[voiceover]

I was feeling very pissy and irritated with all of them tonight.  Maybe it was the long absence?

But then  Rebecca kind of got me with her rant at Kevin.  

Then Miguel kind of got me with his lightsaber speech.

Then -- ugh -- Randall broke the dam with the Warner Wolf reference.

 

It was not perfect, but I rejoiced in the Big Three giggle moment.  Sometimes we heal better from the inside, and I'm happy when the three of them recognize this.
Because -- man! Sometimes we need a break from Teh Dramaaaaaa. 
 

[Dreamboat Annie]

5 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

So while Rebecca was completely torn over what to do about Kate's weight - wanting to address her overeating, but not wanting to make her feel self-conscious - Jack was taking her out for ice cream daily? And trying to keep it secret from his wife?

Some freaking saint. If I were Rebecca, would have been absolutely furious with him.

So would I.  That seems to be an ongoing situation throughout.  She's right about being "the bad guy".  For example, she suggests to Kate that she slice up an apple for herself and Kate because they've both had enough cookies for the day, and Jack enters the house announcing they're going on vacation.  And, she really is undermined at every turn when it comes to her concern re Kate's eating, and I'm sure it would not be long before you would feel so alone in it.  But Jack loving his little girl so much and seeing her as the most perfect and beautiful human being would be, I am sure, very hard to fight.  It would have been nice if Rebecca and Jack had been on the same page with concern for Kate's weight and health. 

[MissL]

44 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think Beth really has that much reason to whine about the Pearson bond, because I don't feel like Randall leaves her out of stuff.  they have a healthy marriage.  Toby's another story.  This may have changed recently, but Kate has been known to confide in Kevin before Toby and put Kevin first.  I thought Miguel's excuse was flimsy.  My parents are still alive.  I will be devastated if they die.  Not when.  If.  But, they were 17. They weren't little little kids.  And it's been 20 years.  They shouldn't have lifelong trauma from this.  I'm not saying they shouldn't still miss him.  I'm just saying they shouldn't be paralyzed by it.

I lost my father when I was 27 and it wasn't a quick shocking death it was a slow painful one. It's been 14 years.  I definitely have unresolved issues and things I wished we'd cleared up before he died and moments of my life I can't believe he's missed and there are days I can't talk about what happened and I still have bad dreams from his illness around the anniversary of his death. I have a growing group of friends who have also lost their dad and it's the same for them. I imagine for a 17 year old to lose a parent in whatever horrific way they lost Jack it doesn't matter how long it's been.  God 10 years later was hard enough. I don't see them paralyzed. They obviously had issues before he died that continued after, but it does inform your life and changes you for real. 

 

And yikes i shared too much but just want to say this seems very realistic to me. He was a big presence. 

Such a good episode. 

[milner]

I agree with the writer earlier who said that losing a parent at 17 is awful but it shouldn't have paralyzed them for the rest of their lives.  My mother died when I was fourteen and as the only girl all the household chores--cooking, shopping, cleaning, laundry etc--fell to me.  In that regard, the lives of my father and brothers didn't change.  But I can't sit around whining about it.  I am a grown up.  And my brothers and I get on just fine.  I can't go back and relive my life, one can only go forward.   

[Runningwild]

Beth shouldn’t be throwing any stones at Kevin for Tess stowing away in his car. What if Tess decided to eat some of Beth’s brownies? Or took Mom’s “oregano” for show and tell? Maybe not as dangerous, but also illegal.

If Beth lived a squeaky clean life and maybe didn’t have such a beautiful home where until recently she was a stay at home mom and wonderful family, maybe I could get behind her. I think part of her problem is the girls (Deja included) love Kevin so much. And maybe she’s mad at Randall for the crap he’s been pulling (moving his dad in and quitting his job without discussing it with her first) and she’s going to take it out on the good looking white guy. Her comment to Randall earlier makes it seem like she really had a problem with white people.  

[BuckeyeLou]

12 minutes ago, MissL said:

I lost my father when I was 27 and it wasn't a quick shocking death it was a slow painful one. It's been 14 years.  I definitely have unresolved issues and things I wished we'd cleared up before he died and moments of my life I can't believe he's missed and there are days I can't talk about what happened and I still have bad dreams from his illness around the anniversary of his death. I have a growing group of friends who have also lost their dad and it's the same for them. I imagine for a 17 year old to lose a parent in whatever horrific way they lost Jack it doesn't matter how long it's been.  God 10 years later was hard enough. I don't see them paralyzed. They obviously had issues before he died that continued after, but it does inform your life and changes you for real. 

 

And yikes i shared too much but just want to say this seems very realistic to me. He was a big presence. 

Such a good episode. 

I understand how you feel....I lost my Father, who I adored, when I was 13 and my sisters were 6 & 8 years old....we are all now Seniors & it still affects our lives today, colors our memories & makes us so aad on the anniversary of his death...he was only 43...what a lose of a good person.

[Rowan]

This show isn't perfect, but I love how they all have their moments. I liked that Kevin finally said he felt less loved and I liked how Randall immediately jumped to his mother's defense. It's exactly what would happen. 

I'm cool with Beth not liking Kevin. It's ok if she doesn't care for him. She doesn't go out of her way to be a bitch to him. Her loyalty lies with Randall, and I'm sure hearing how young Kevin took out his frustrations on Randall didn't exactly endear him to her. And, while she's aloof with regard to him, she's admitted that he can be charming and that he's a good looking man. I like that she doesn't suffer fools. 

I may be the only one, but I hope we at least get a scene of Kevin apologizing to Sophie for being a douche who swept back into her life begging for that second chance only to get it and then cruelly flush it. 

[Dreamboat Annie]

6 minutes ago, Rowan said:

She doesn't go out of her way to be a bitch to him.

I felt she went out of her way to be a bitch to him tonight.  The last thing anyone needs when making an effort to be well is someone there just to show their contempt and non support.  She had the choice to stay home but instead went there just so she could give him her stinkface from the start and stink comments when she realized she was being asked to leave.  It's all about her.  She had no business being there.

10 minutes ago, Rowan said:

I may be the only one, but I hope we at least get a scene of Kevin apologizing to Sophie for being a douche who swept back into her life begging for that second chance only to get it and then cruelly flush it. 

You're not the only one.  He will have to make amends and answer to his behaviour.  I don't believe we've seen the last of Kevin and Sophie.  But he didn't "cruelly flush it".  At the risk of sounding like I'm excusing Kevin's behaviour, I'm really not.  I'm just saying that Kevin's actions are that of a drug addict, very different than if he were not a drug addict.  It's also possible he ended things with her (the way he did it was regretful and I think he knows that) because he knew he was in no shape at the time to continue any kind of a meaningful relationship. 

[Cardie]

I loved the emotional intensity of the therapy session. They needed to get those issues out in the open. At the same time, I felt like the scene had a dual purpose of articulating the family dynamics just in case audiences hadn't already figured them out. So many of those speeches sounded like verbatim copies of all the psychological analyses we post here.

The three young actors who play elementary school big three are shooting up fast. Pretty soon, snuggling with the folks is going to start looking creepy.

[Rowan]

30 minutes ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

I felt she went out of her way to be a bitch to him tonight.  The last thing anyone needs when making an effort to be well is someone there just to show their contempt and non support.  She had the choice to stay home but instead went there just so she could give him her stinkface from the start and stink comments when she realized she was being asked to leave.  It's all about her.  She had no business being there.

You're not the only one.  He will have to make amends and answer to his behaviour.  I don't believe we've seen the last of Kevin and Sophie.  But he didn't "cruelly flush it".  At the risk of sounding like I'm excusing Kevin's behaviour, I'm really not.  I'm just saying that Kevin's actions are that of a drug addict, very different than if he were not a drug addict.  It's also possible he ended things with her (the way he did it was regretful and I think he knows that) because he knew he was in no shape at the time to continue any kind of a meaningful relationship. 

In all fairness, Beth didn't want to go. Randall played his Kevin was there for me card, and it also seemed like all the significant "Others" mistakenly thought their presence was required. 

As for Sophie, I might be inclined to cut him some slack, it's just that he obviously broke her heart once before. She took that leap for him and he screwed it up again. 

I know my posts read like I don't like Kevin, and that's kinda funny because I actually prefer him to Kate and Randall. I find his story more intriguing. 

[biakbiak]

If only this show took place in a time where telephones exist, would it kill Jack to pass one decision by his wife instead of presenting it as a fait accompli. 

[catrox14]

Damn, this show is way too real at times.

That counseling scene was rough and really well done.

[moonorchid]

I haven’t been a loyal viewer this year, felt different and I found myself not really connecting like I did last season. This episode ensures I’ll watch next week.

 

Ive always appreciated how complex this show is with the family dynamics and characters. Jack and Rebecca were wonderful parents that came up short for Kevin. Randall will never remember things the same way cause he’s never had to watch his parents overlook him time and time again to tend to his brother. Kevin recognizes that while he has issues with his parents and how they treated him as an afterthought most of the time, he had a good childhood with parents that tried. Rebecca and jack do what most parents do...they fall back on the common tropes of their kids...Randall missing his glasses? His brother whose always picking on him obviously took it. Rebecca still thought Kevin did it even when he said he didn’t. Heck I thought he took them. Randall is insecure about his new glasses? Have to throw in a reminder to the brother that picks on him to be nice without realizing she’s dimming his joy at wanting to share his stories about football camp. Rebecca loves Kevin, it’s is obvious but she focused on Randall and Kate more. The fact that Rebecca couldn’t recall a story of them, thst all she could do was feel it in her bones. It’s  just so sad but she completely gets how bad that is and is heartbroken. I hope there are more Kevin and Rebecca scenes in the future. 

 

What amazes me is kevin is exactly the type of person you shouldn’t or wouldn’t feel bad for. He is a very privaleged, “all American”, straight, abled bodied, white male.   Beth’s observations about him were spot on and that kind of crap does bug me with it’s disingenuousness of it all. Everything Kevin is grates on Beth’s nerves and rightfully so and that doesn’t even cover the stuff I’m sure Randall has told her about their childhood.  Heck Randall was spot on with what he said and while I don’t agree that Kevin is not an addict, from Randall’s perspective I totally get it. But with all of that...I can’t help it, I cry for him. Kevin can’t even get too mad, cause jack and Rebecca were good people. 

 

I thought this episode also did a good job of showing how jack was a saint in one perspective but much more flawed in another. Kate only remembers the good times with her dad where he loved her for who she was and showered her with the things she loved. Rebecca remembers that guy too but also knew him as the guy who took a lot of the praise and didn’t have to deal with the lows of a kid saying they hate you. Kevin is the only one who accepts thst their father was an addict and he struggled. I can’t imagine losing a parent at any age is easy and while 17 is not little it’s just the beginning of the next phase of their life and when you have a parent like jack I can see how losing him is soemtnifn they all continue to struggle with in one way or another. 

 

This episode was uncomfortsble at times times but I was glad to see it go back to what I love about this show.

Edited January 11, 2018 by moonorchid

[UsernameFatigue]

I loved the scenes with the "Other Big Three". My husband has a big, close, extended family and those of us who have married into it call ourselves the Out Laws. I would love to see more scenes with OBT. I especially loved Toby asking questions of Miguel and Beth, and Miguel talking about being the guy who married his best friend's wife. I hope they explore that further down the road. 

I thought it was very telling when Rebecca talked to the therapist about how hard it was for the twins to lose their dad at 17. Jack wasn't there when Randall's kids were born. Jack won't be there when Kate gets married. Poor Kevin didn't even make the list, even though obviously Jack wasn't there when he got married, or when he became a successful actor. 

I thought the therapy scenes were well done, but was also glad that the three sibs had the conversation at the end. 

[SadieT]

Really enjoyed that episode. Kevin’s feelings about not being the favorite are so real to me that it’s actually painful. And I love that Randall finally admitted that it wasn’t necessarily about Kevin being mistreated as a child, but about Kevin’s perspective. Because to Kevin, it obviously hurt watching his mom bond with Randall and his dad with Kate, even if he did have good moments with his parents (like his mom getting out of bed to sleep with him on the floor), but it sucks when people try to gaslight you into believing your pain isn’t real. I’ve tried explaining that very same concept to my siblings in regards to the “your mom’s favorite” conversation, that it doesn’t mean "mom was mean to me", it’s so much more complex, but my siblings always get so defensive—just like we saw with the Pearsons in that therapy session. It can be so hard for people to accept that even though you all grow up together and share certain experiences, each individual sibling experiences those things differently and has different memories and feelings about them so I was really happy to hear Randall acknowledge Kevin's perspective in that Big 3 sceen.

And Rebecca admitting that Kevin didn’t seem to need her as much and that it was just easier with Randall couldn’t have been easy but I was happy to hear her actually acknowledge that Kevin’s feelings were valid as well. My mother used to always say the “squeaky wheel gets the oil” when we were growing up when one of us complained about not getting the same attention or treatment as another sibling. And in a way it makes sense, especially when you’re trying to manage and care for multiple children (and my mom had 4 of us to raise basically on her own), but man, sometimes it sucks being that non-squeaky wheel, as I often was, and I definitely remember feeling like things would be better if I squeaked a little more and acted out. So I feel Kevin, and we see Kevin act out to get that attention, so I’m really impressed with how the show explored the nuances of “favoritism” in the family, because we all know most parents love their children equally, but there are complexities involved that can make it seem like that’s not the case in a child’s eyes. 

On another note, Beth and Randall annoyed me this episode, with Beth acting like Kevin intentionally put their daughter at risk and Randall dismissing Kevin’s addiction, but Randall at least redeemed himself by the end. 

[dlyn]

The therapy scene was top-notch. I rewound the DVR multiple times to capture every line and look. Randall’s line about Kevin pulling “that lame-ass wool” over the therapist’s eyes was my favorite. Mandy Moore was fantastic. I wish Kate had gotten more to do, but I can understand they were probably crunched for time. This could have easily been a two-hour episode.

Kid Kevin is a brat. I’d find it hard to bond with him, too. 

Kate and Toby apparently use garbage bags made of tissue paper. I’m glad she came clean. 

Also, I don’t understand the comments about Beth hating Randall’s family. She doesn’t like Kevin (for several valid and some probably not-so-valid) reasons. She was upset with Rebecca for hiding William. But she had no problem with Rebecca initially, seems to be fine with Kate, and is one of the few to have embraced Miguel. It only makes sense that she’ll have issues with people who don’t treat her husband well. She’s not just some mean in-law. 

[moonorchid]

5 minutes ago, dlyn said:

 

Also, I don’t understand the comments about Beth hating Randall’s family. She doesn’t like Kevin (for several valid and some probably not-so-valid) reasons. She was upset with Rebecca for hiding William. But she had no problem with Rebecca initially, seems to be fine with Kate, and is one of the few to have embraced Miguel. It only makes sense that she’ll have issues with people who don’t treat her husband well. She’s not just some mean in-law. 

I def don’t think Beth hates the Pearsons, she’s just not willing to just let all of Kevin’s crap go with a big hug. And she does not have to. I almost get irritated by it, and honestly the only time I ever did was this episode and her passive aggressiveness about Kevin in rehab and that huge passive aggressive sigh...but she was upfront with that, girl gave no pretenses, just for the goal of what that trip was she shouldn’t have gone. But I have the benefit of knowing Kevin through his eyes and that make sure him sympathetic to me.

[WhosThatGirl]

I don’t find kid Kevin a brat now that they were literally having a vacation without him! I know that he was at camp and then they were staying a few more days but they were essentially having a vacation while he was away and no kid is going to see anything different when his dad picks him up and brings him to a cabin where his siblings have been roasting s’mores and etc. so I get him now. 

[moonorchid]

I definitely didn’t think he was super bratty even when he was acting out. 

He finds out his family is having a vacation without him with s’mores and hot dogs and all kinds of fun stuff, and they’ve been there for days. He wants to show off his trophies and he’s excited to share his experiences about camp but almost immediately his mom has to bring up how he has to be nice to Randall as to not make Randall feel insecure. He’s playing football with his dad, which Randall as an adult remembers as a fun Kevin\jack time but in reality it was more about tricking Kate into running and as soon as Kate was upset jack ran off with Kate without a word to Kevin whom he hasn’t seen for a long period of time. That ish is rough and it’s a running theme in the Pearson household. I get it, when said out loud it does sound like “woe is me no one loved me” but this is the kind of stuff thst stays with you and it sucks.

heck Rebecca even dismissed Kevin’s “I hate you” with a “you’re just tired”...I highly doubt if Randall said that it woikd be swept aside like that, and that’s Kevin’s problem.

Edited January 10, 2018 by moonorchid

[dlyn]

6 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I don’t find kid Kevin a brat now that they were literally having a vacation without him! I know that he was at camp and then they were staying a few more days but they were essentially having a vacation while he was away and no kid is going to see anything different when his dad picks him up and brings him to a cabin where his siblings have been roasting s’mores and etc. so I get him now. 

There’s no excuse for throwing the ball at the face of someone who is minding his own business. But I’m not just talking about this episode. There was the other camping episode earlier this season and I feel like there was something last year, but it’s not coming to mind. 

[movingtargetgal]

2 hours ago, Runningwild said:

If Beth lived a squeaky clean life and maybe didn’t have such a beautiful home where until recently she was a stay at home mom and wonderful family, maybe I could get behind her. I think part of her problem is the girls (Deja included) love Kevin so much. And maybe she’s mad at Randall for the crap he’s been pulling (moving his dad in and quitting his job without discussing it with her first) and she’s going to take it out on the good looking white guy. Her comment to Randall earlier makes it seem like she really had a problem with white people.  

I think Beth is taking her anger at Randall out on Kevin.  Randall is a good man but he is very selfish.  During the past year he has made so many life decisions while either not discussing it with or steamrolling over Beth.  Randall's obsessive nature has an effect on his family.  Between bringing William home for dinner, inviting the dying man to live with them, quitting his job, having Beth become the sole supporter of the family, becoming foster parents and having a foster daughter become a part of the family only to lose her, it is no wonder Tess ran away.  Beth must be furious with Randall but does not confront him because of her fear of him having another breakdown.  Right now it is easier for her to focus her anger at Kevin.  

[moonorchid]

3 minutes ago, dlyn said:

There’s no excuse for throwing the ball at the face of someone who is minding his own business. But I’m not just talking about this episode. There was the other camping episode earlier this season and I feel like there was something last year, but it’s not coming to mind. 

No there’s no excuse but this is a chicken or the egg scenario. He’s obviously acting like this cause he angry and he directs it at Randall cause he jealous, and we are being shown that his feelings and perspective have merit.

[WhosThatGirl]

12 minutes ago, moonorchid said:

No there’s no excuse but this is a chicken or the egg scenario. He’s obviously acting like this cause he angry and he directs it at Randall cause he jealous, and we are being shown that his feelings and perspective have merit.

This. No his behavior and actions weren’t great, but Kevin is constantly especially in the kid age we see them left out and in a sense forgotten about. Jack chases after Kate and forgets about the game, Rebecca doesn’t even look when Kevin tries to show her his throws(same as in the pool episode, when no one was watching his throws) and Rebecca’s first instinct when Randall loses his glasses is to blame Kevin for taking them. 

Also what bothered me is I wonder how Randall would feel if he heard the way Kate views her relationship with their mother. He got really mad that Kevin was  putting on this blame on Rebecca and taking a stand but as we’ve seen Kate has a ton of issues with Rebecca. Would Randall have been just as harsh to Kate? We heard Say that awful thing about how Rebecca existing was painful to her, how would Randall react to that I’m wondering? 

[Racj82]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

I don't think there was anything about this episode I didn't like.  The flashback was more Kevin being left out, but I like that it's subtle enough and doesn't make Jack and Rebecca look like jerks.  And, I loved that Rebecca got off the bed and slept on the floor with Kevin.  I wonder if he knew that happened?  If she woke up first he probably wouldn't.  

I loved the "others" in the bar.  They were a lot of fun.  

I'm of the opinion that every parent has a favorite.  That's why you should only have 2 kids:)  But, I don't know how much easier Randall could have been.  He had anxiety issues, he was pretty much total type A personality, he was practically a genius and he was a different race, and she was constantly worried about his "real" dad showing up and taking him away.

I liked the ending where Kate told Toby she'd been sneaking food.  I hope we get further into her addiction.

Randall was easier because he also open. About his feelings. He was also needed but accepted his parents being there. There was always a push and pull with Kevin and Kate seemed to always be super sensitive so it must have been exhausting trying not to hurt her feelings constantly.

[afrocorgi]

I always knew Mandy Moore and Sterling K Brown were great, but Justin Hartley is really stepping it up and surprising me. Who knew there was real pathos under that chiseled face. All three were excellent tonight. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

That Was Us:

[Racj82]

4 hours ago, milner said:

I agree with the writer earlier who said that losing a parent at 17 is awful but it shouldn't have paralyzed them for the rest of their lives.  My mother died when I was fourteen and as the only girl all the household chores--cooking, shopping, cleaning, laundry etc--fell to me.  In that regard, the lives of my father and brothers didn't change.  But I can't sit around whining about it.  I am a grown up.  And my brothers and I get on just fine.  I can't go back and relive my life, one can only go forward.   

There is no such thing as should when it comes to grief. How long or how little time you take to get over it. In fact, I think this is done a lot. Why is so and so still upset about this? It's easy to ask that question when you are not in the other person's shoes.

It's also rough for these particular adults because for Kate Jack was her whole world. The only person she ever felt loved her unconditionally. It's easy to never stop comparing someone up to that ideal. Also, never fully coping without that type of support.

Randall will always look at Jack as the man who saved his life. Also, the ideal man. He's never going to fully move past his feelings for the man he's always trying to live up to.

Kevin spent way too much time being bitter at his parents and he can never get that time back. Especially with Jack. That's a guilt he may never get over.

[Racj82]

1 hour ago, moonorchid said:

I definitely didn’t think he was super bratty even when he was acting out. 

He finds out his family is having a vacation without him with s’mores and hot dogs and all kinds of fun stuff, and they’ve been there for days. He wants to show off his trophies and he’s excited to share his experiences about camp but almost immediately his mom has to bring up how he has to be nice to Randall as to not make Randall feel insecure. He’s playing football with his dad, which Randall as an adult remembers as a fun Kevin\jack time but in reality it was more about tricking Kate into running and as soon as Kate was upset jack ran off with Kate without a word to Kevin whom he hasn’t seen for a long period of time. That ish is rough and it’s a running theme in the Pearson household. I get it, when said out loud it does sound like “woe is me no one loved me” but this is the kind of stuff thst stays with you and it sucks.

heck Rebecca even dismissed Kevin’s “I hate you” with a “you’re just tired”...I highly doubt if Randall said that it woikd be swept aside like that, and that’s Kevin’s problem.

I don't know why it's not being seen as two things. He was being super bratty BUT it wasn't for no reason. He had a very obvious reason.  I sympathize with him but I also think he was being a little shit. His acting out is exhausting even if it comes from a logical place.

[Drumpf1737]

In-laws not getting along is a trope as old as TV. Wasn't it the entire premise of Everybody loves Raymond? I wonder what the difference is in Kevin and Beth's relationship that it's not taken as a typical TV in-law relationship... hmmm.

The way Beth criticized Kevin was no different than most people criticizing rich celebrities who get away with things most of us would go to jail for. Wonder what makes Beth criticizing Kevin different?

Miguel intrigues me. It would be interesting to explore his and Rebecca's relationship later on .

Wasn't Beth a work from home Mom hence the office?

Kids like Kevin are why I decided to never have children. I would be in jail if a person I worked hard to feed and cloth screamed that he hated me. Exactly when did Kevin turn against Randall? In the camping episode, they're still little and Randall has a whole book on how to get along better with Kevin. Kevin manipulated the theme of the big three's birthday party in order to impress Sophie. I see that there were instances where the bond seemed stronger between the parents, Kate and Randall, but I also see a difficult little shit not making it easy.

I really liked Ka-Toby.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Drumpf1737

[debraran]

6 hours ago, Conotocarious said:

I think she meant it was easier to bond with the child who didn’t push her away and act all surly with her. Not that Randall was easy to raise with his many facets but that he was just easy for her to bond with.

That's funny because she was worried about bonding with Randall.  Yeah, the line about him leaving etc after Jack's death, it was a good line, a good blur, but that doesn't say why when they were 8 she was like that. It also doesn't show why he disliked Randall so much. Jack did more with him and Kate, but the flashbacks always show Randall alone doing something or being ignored or tortured by Kevin. It was a touching scene when adult Randall had breakdown and he came, missed his moment, but the ball throwing at his face last night, not talking to him, making sarcastic remarks as a teen,why so much animosity?  When did Rebecca start to favor, was it to make up for the fact he wasn't an accepted brother?

And why the anger toward Kevin and Tess...because if she ran away and he was sober, they could just think about that? Tess blew off her parents after a month of overkill but I still feel it wasn't talked out, she is just reassuring them it's over, she wont run away again, but has "why" really been discussed and any future children coming to house? And her sister, did she go through her own issues?

Edited January 10, 2018 by debraran

[debraran]

3 hours ago, moonorchid said:

No there’s no excuse but this is a chicken or the egg scenario. He’s obviously acting like this cause he angry and he directs it at Randall cause he jealous, and we are being shown that his feelings and perspective have merit.

Yes, poor Kevin is hated by some fans because when is there a flashback that has them getting along and not separated. My sisters fought a lot, a year apart, physical and yelling and were opposites but had many nice moments too and it was a roller coaster ride. Now as adults they are close again. Was it that Randall was "different" and he didn't like it or what his friends said (although young children usually are kinder) Was it that he knew about Kyle and didn't know how to process it? Randall always wanted his attention which is sad, my sisters wern't trying to impress each other, Randall never had the brother bond he wanted so much. Jack in some ways was closer to Kevin because he understood him, they both loved sports, etc. but I don't think he ever ignored him.

The Kate back story, I hope they explore more. Why was Kate supposedly heavy, did she really eat that much more than her siblings? Was it activity or just a slower metabolism? Why do all the episodes revolve around her weight? Rebecca mentioned all Kate talked about was the food, well I would be the same way at a cabin in the woods, lol, but what did she like to do? Did she like to dance, play an instrument, art? Do we know much about her except she likes sweets and eats when she is upset?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

This week I could really identify with Kevin. I have two sisters and my parents each had a favorite. I was not one of those favorites. My mom was like Rebecca, always telling us that she didn't have a favorite and that she loved all of us equally (her actions to the contrary). My dad didn't even try to hide that my other sister was his favorite.

As someone pointed out in a previous post, it's not even about my parents deliberately being mean to me. Sometimes it was big things like not being treated equally. Other times it was more subtle things.

For example, while I was home for Christmas a few weeks ago, I looked at all the photos my mom has covering the top of the piano and the tables in the living room, and out of the 20+ framed pictures, there are three of me. One is the typical Sears family portrait of my sisters and me when I was a kid. The second is a picture of my sisters and me with Santa when I was in college (which we gave to my parents as a Christmas present). The third is a picture from my wedding which I gave to them. The other photos are all of my sisters at various phases of their lives from childhood through college. Is this my mom's way of deliberately trying to hurt my feelings or make me feel out? Of course not. But when I was absentmindedly staring at the photos while waiting for my mom and I realized the unconscious decision she made in choosing these photos, it still made me feel a little bit left out. Not enough to say anything about it, but still.

And the thing is that there have been times when my mom and I were talking about when my sisters and I were younger and if I point out any way that we were treated differently, my mom denies it. Even when I give her a very obvious example, she refuses to acknowledge that she treated us differently at all. Easy example: even though I'm the oldest, my younger sister had a later curfew than I did. And I don't mean that my sister was much younger and my parents mellowed out between when I was in high school and when she was in high school . When I was a senior in high school, my sister was a sophomore and she was allowed to stay out later than I was during that exact same time period (not two years later when she was a senior - I had to come home earlier on Friday night as a senior than my younger sister did as a sophomore). My parents were never deliberately cruel in the way they treated me differently, so I have that same guilt that Kevin does because I know that my parents loved me and did their best but I still felt left out.

As for the squeaky wheel getting the oil (which I do understand, especially when you have multiple kids who are close in age - many days can feel like controlled chaos, constantly putting out fires), whenever my sisters were the squeaky wheels, they got attention. When I was the squeaky wheel, I got punished.

So yeah, I really related to how Kevin felt. I'm not excusing his behavior (as a child or as an adult) but I understand the root of it.

What I really loved about this episode was that as intense as it was, it was still very realistic. The way the characters reacted and interacted with each other was so realistic to me, from Randall immediately defending Rebecca to Kate attacking the therapist. And young Kevin yelling, "This cabin sucks!" was exactly the kind of thing a kid his age would say when he's mad.

I was with Miguel for the first part of his little speech. I get that he's been an outsider since he married Rebecca and that he accepts it. But then he had to make it all about Saint Jack and how the Pearsons get to be the ones with light sabers because Jack was "the best man any of us will ever know" (despite the fact that two thirds of the Other Big Three never met him). Seriously?

Don't get me wrong - the death of a parent is difficult to deal with, especially when you're younger (and there is no time table for grief - sometimes it takes years to deal with that kind of loss). But that isn't a reason to justify why you'll never be part of the inner circle. Miguel basically said that because Saint Jack was the saintiest saint to ever saint, Beth and Toby have to accept that they'll never be part of the inner circle. Speak for yourself, dude. I understand why the Pearsons who are not Rebecca aren't crazy about Miguel and haven't let him into their inner circle. They will always see him as their dad's best friend who then married their mom. But I hate that Miguel worshiping at the altar of Saint Jack resulted in him telling Beth and Toby that they just need to accept that they will never break through because they didn't live through losing Jack and bonding over that with the original Big Three.

My favorite visual in this episode was when Kate and Kevin scooted over to make room for Randall on the bench (and then later when Kate scooted him off the bench when he asked if they were all officially confirming that he's Rebecca's favorite).

Edited January 10, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Conotocarious]

47 minutes ago, debraran said:

That's funny because she was worried about bonding with Randall.  Yeah, the line about him leaving etc after Jack's death, it was a good line, a good blur, but that doesn't say why when they were 8 she was like that. 

She was worried about bonding when he was a baby and she couldn’t nurse him. 

Why is it people expect everything that these characters say to be perfectly in line with what they have seen/interpreted so far? Nothing in life is like that. Nothing. The stuff I remember from childhood is contradictory to how my parents or siblings remember it and we would all offer different explanations for things. And most of the time, things couldn’t be neatly explained away.

[debraran]

1 minute ago, Conotocarious said:

She was worried about bonding when he was a baby and she couldn’t nurse him. 

Why is it people expect everything that these characters say to be perfectly in line with what they have seen/interpreted so far? Nothing in life is like that. Nothing. The stuff I remember from childhood is contradictory to how my parents or siblings remember it and we would all offer different explanations for things. And most of the time, things couldn’t be neatly explained away.

That's true, my sisters and I will remember a Xmas or birthday or just a day from childhood much differently.  One sibling thought my dad was gone a lot, so not such a great father, I admired him working 2 1/2 jobs at times to feed us and keep us comfortable if not luxurious and always admired how he did it and only heard him complain maybe twice. All perception and personality. I learned not to argue with my kids about how they saw something, just accept they saw it that way and maybe as they mature and age, they will see it differently again. You are sometimes more centered on just you as a kid and can't see what your parents were going through.

I know she was worried about bonding when Randall came home and then it clicked, but I didn't think the "leaving after Jack died" was a fair comment. The earlier statements, yes.

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, Racj82 said:

There is no such thing as should when it comes to grief. How long or how little time you take to get over it. In fact, I think this is done a lot. Why is so and so still upset about this? It's easy to ask that question when you are not in the other person's shoes.

It's also rough for these particular adults because for Kate Jack was her whole world. The only person she ever felt loved her unconditionally. It's easy to never stop comparing someone up to that ideal. Also, never fully coping without that type of support.

Randall will always look at Jack as the man who saved his life. Also, the ideal man. He's never going to fully move past his feelings for the man he's always trying to live up to.

Kevin spent way too much time being bitter at his parents and he can never get that time back. Especially with Jack. That's a guilt he may never get over.

I agree with this.  With Kate, she is making some forward progress relationship-wise because she and Toby have a pretty healthy one where he accepts her and she feels loved.  She still has a lot of work to do with her eating but she is becoming more analytical about that, too.  Randall also has a healthy relationship with Beth and an ongoing closeness with his mom.  Kevin has none of the relationship advantages that Randall and Kate currently do, plus he had a more fraught relationship with Jack right before he died. 

One thing about the cabin scenes -- Randall and Kate just happened to be awakened by the thunderstorm earlier than Kevin did, and hence were in the bed with their parents, leaving no room for him.  That was happenstance, no one was leaving Kevin out, yet Rebecca went and slept on the hard floor next to him.  That says a lot about her; I don't know that I would have done it.  No, I know I wouldn't have.  When my kids were little and looking for storm comfort and the bed was full, I would make a little nest on the floor right next to the bed with blankets and pillows underneath to make it softer, but we had carpet, too.  That cabin floor looked like it didn't.  Yet she went down there despite the fact that he had been quite unlovable that day.  I give her an 'A' for parenting Kevin right there.  She recognized his need and responded to it. 

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, Runningwild said:

You think that would matter to a 10 yr. old?  Let’s not forget Rebecca didn’t look at his trophies, didn’t watch him throw the football, AND throwing the football (Kevin’s thing) was really about Kate. So when Kate quit, Jack quit. It wasn’t about spending time with Kevin. Again. And let’s not forget the pool where they weren’t watching the kid who can’t swim. Kevin was definitely neglected more than the other two. 

Everything else you mentioned is a separate matter.  Yes, I definitely noticed that the first thing Rebecca did when Kevin got there was talk to him about Randall and how football had to include Kate.  Although to be fair, Jack was supposed to be finding an activity Kate would like, not shoehorn her into Kevin's activity.  And, no Rebecca, you were not watching KEvin throw and he has eyes and he can see that.  But, life doesn't stop for the rest of the family when a kid goes to camp.  So, there was no reason not to start their two week vacation a few days earlier.

[Trillium]

I very much related to Beth. I have a BIL, coincidently named Kevin, who’s had 3 DUI’s and is a total dick to his parents and my husband. If I was asked to go to some rehab thing to support him, and he came out with the very phony show of sorrows that Kevin did when they first arrived, I’d have nope the fuck out too. That being said, I’d take TIU Kevin a million times over my real BIL. I’m very happy to start seeing the real him, not Actor Kevin Pearson.

I liked the therapist though. She didn’t let Kevin continue the fake politeness and made him get real with his family. And shutting down Kate, Rebecca and Randall when they tried to correct his feelings was also a good move. And Rebecca. Oh man as a mother of two boys, although they are young, I got it. My oldest is easy, he’s well behaved and no trouble at all. I don’t worry about him. My younger one is an emotional vampire. He’s three but he’s definitely more challenging then the other one was at that age. I struggle with the fact that I give way less attention to the older one. My normally robotic self lost it when Rebecca did. It hit a very real nerve. It was very real. 

[Haleth]

That whole episode was so powerful.  For once everyone (including the outsiders) spoke the truth.  Kudos to the writers for creating real dialog instead of speechifying.  No walking on eggshells or ignoring latent resentments, put it all out there and acknowledge that they all have problems.  Not one of the characters annoyed me since they all spoke their own truth (including the outsiders).  The Pearsons really need to continue the conversation though, one session and one group hug aren't going to fix things.  

Geez, for the perfect family the Big 3 are all pretty screwed up.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Haleth

[MyAimIsTrue]

While I'm sick of the canonization of Jack and really don't care how he died this episode was amazing for me on a personal level.  My sister and I have vastly different childhood memories when it comes to family trauma and it's been a sticking point for us as adults so I almost feel vindicated that a TV show of all things showed that it's not unusual for siblings to remember differently.  I hope she watched the episode and thought the same thing.

[Conotocarious]

Yup. In my family we have recently dealt with a horrible tragedy and it’s brought up all sorts of stuff from childhood that everyone seems to recall differently. This show really nailed a lot of stuff. Like I said best episode of this season for sure and one of the best in the series run.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Conotocarious

[Kohola3]

Quote

Rebecca even dismissed Kevin’s “I hate you” with a “you’re just tired”...

Good grief, if a mother took "I hate you" to heart every time they heard it, mothers across the world would be forever bedridden or have all gotten a degree in psychology to instantly counsel the kid and plumb the depths for the cause.  Kids say that all of the time;  a smart mother just ignores it because it's a fleeting reaction to not getting something they want.  Hardly earth shattering.

[Empress1]

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I'm of the - potentially unpopular - opinion that Rebecca was too lenient with kid Kevin. If I had thrown a ball at my brother and spoken that way to my mother, there would have been dire consequences. It almost seemed like Kevin was acting out deliberately to get Rebecca's attention, and then felt like Rebecca didn't even care enough to punish him properly.

We weren't even allowed to answer "What?" when an elder asked us something; we had to answer "Yes?" (If we hadn't heard them, we asked "What did you say?") And if I'd answered "What?" with an attitude like that, AND threw a ball at my mother, AND said "You suck, this sucks[ "sucks" was another word that wasn't allowed], I hate you," while on vacation (I can hear my mother now, "We work too hard for things!") it would have been a wrap. When Rebecca was just like "Oh, hey!" I was like "?" because a) again, that would never have gone down in my family, and b) Kevin was CLEARLY crying out for negative attention, and he wasn't even getting that. Negative attention is better than no attention. 

Also if my brother had thrown a ball at my face when I was wearing my new glasses, BOTH my parents would have been furious because glasses are expensive. I can remember a bunch of times when my brother and I were playing or roughhousing and the adults around told us to be careful of my glasses. 

Miguel's "the best man any of us will ever know" was a bit much to me, particularly since Toby and Beth never met him. As was the Star Wars metaphor (not into Star Wars, don't care). I did enjoy the Other Big Three in the bar though. I think I'd have been annoyed if I'd schlepped to the rehab thinking my presence was required, and it wasn't, whether or not I got along with my in-laws.

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Good grief, if a mother took "I hate you" to heart every time they heard it, mothers across the world would be forever bedridden or have all gotten a degree in psychology to instantly counsel the kid and plumb the depths for the cause.  Kids say that all of the time;  a smart mother just ignores it because it's a fleeting reaction to not getting something they want.  Hardly earth shattering.

See I took the statement of “I hate you” as evidence that kid Kevin was a HUGE brat with no boundaries. Had I ever DARED whisper such things to an adult, much less my MOTHER, well let’s just say I wouldn’t be alive right now typing this to you. You’d be visiting my metaphorical grave site, and I’m only a few years younger than the big 3 so not a big cultural difference.

IMO they did not give Kevin proper boundaries (or Kate either), Randall was easier because he didn’t push boundaries (I understood what Rebecca was talking about there). Now I’m not saying Kevin was wrong for what he was saying in therapy, Kevin is allowed to be a flawed person (especially as a kid), but as the parents Jack and Rebecca should’ve nipped that attitude in the bud. 

5 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Also if my brother had thrown a ball at my face when I was wearing my new glasses, BOTH my parents would have been furious because glasses are expensive. I can remember a bunch of times when my brother and I were playing or roughhousing and the adults around told us to be careful of my glasses. 

Yes! I was thinking that. Several hundred dollars a pop back then!