S02.E11: The Fifth Wheel

[PRgal]

Kevin inherited Jack's alcohol addiction (and extended it to drugs), while Kate has a food addiction (and likely, losing her father led to it worsening).  If Kyle had survived, I wonder if HE'D have addiction issues as well.  As for Randall's glasses - FAR from ugly 80s/early 90s frames and DEFINITELY not Urkel glasses!  You want nasty?  Me around the same era:

 

[Trillium]

I forgot about my revelation about Miguel, who has grown on me tremendously since last season, St Jack stuff excluded. If Rebecca was to remarry, Miguel was the only one. Jack is the love of her life. If he showed up alive tomorrow, she’d run to him without a second thought. Miguel not only knows this, but he’s OK with it.  Not that they don’t love eachother, but he knows it’s different. He knows he’ll always be second.

[bonniejmac]

Erma Bombeck once made the point in one of her books, when writing about mothering and favorites, that a mother's favorite child is always the one who needs her the most at any given time. I think this definitely applies here. As far as Rebecca could tell, Randall (and sometimes Kate) needed her more.

[WoodyCee]

Rebecca, you really let your child say he hates you and that you suck and your response is to let him walk away while you sigh and look out the window into the distance? Cool parenting. ?

[Kohola3]

Quote

Rebecca, you really let your child say he hates you and that you suck and your response is to let him walk away while you sigh and look out the window into the distance? Cool parenting.

Kids pull that crap because they want you to react, they want you to beg for their love, they want you to feel badly.  The best reaction is to ignore it or laugh it off.  Don't validate it by making a big deal of it.

[bichonblitz]

Kevin nailed it in therapy when he called Randall out on his BS. Everything he said about Randall was true. He makes decisions without really caring about how Beth or his kids feel. Frankly, I don't see how Beth can stand him. 

[Lady Calypso]

I agree that Rebecca and Jack were lenient with Kevin's bratty behaviour as a kid. However, that seems to be precisely why he kept doing it; he wanted the attention, no matter what it was.

7 hours ago, SadieT said:

And Rebecca admitting that Kevin didn’t seem to need her as much and that it was just easier with Randall couldn’t have been easy but I was happy to hear her actually acknowledge that Kevin’s feelings were valid as well. My mother used to always say the “squeaky wheel gets the oil” when we were growing up when one of us complained about not getting the same attention or treatment as another sibling. And in a way it makes sense, especially when you’re trying to manage and care for multiple children (and my mom had 4 of us to raise basically on her own), but man, sometimes it sucks being that non-squeaky wheel, as I often was, and I definitely remember feeling like things would be better if I squeaked a little more and acted out. So I feel Kevin, and we see Kevin act out to get that attention, so I’m really impressed with how the show explored the nuances of “favoritism” in the family, because we all know most parents love their children equally, but there are complexities involved that can make it seem like that’s not the case in a child’s eyes. 

It's kind of funny because I'm thinking about my own parents and quite recently, that's what my mom said to me when talking about my sister and I. Things used to be different as kids, where my older sister was the one that "didn't need my parents" while I was coddled and probably favourited more (sadly, I even think it's still the case). But now, as an adult myself, my sister's the one that needs more help so my parents worry about her more and me less, but mostly because I seem to be more "put together" than she is. However, that might be why I relate to Kevin in a way. Just because he seems put together, it doesn't mean that he doesn't need help. 

4 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

In-laws not getting along is a trope as old as TV. Wasn't it the entire premise of Everybody loves Raymond? I wonder what the difference is in Kevin and Beth's relationship that it's not taken as a typical TV in-law relationship... hmmm.

I think because, when it's a premise like Everybody Loves Raymond, it's done more for humour. I think a lot of those tropes come from sitcoms, mostly. Not only that, but it's usually the in law not having a good reason to hate their partner's sibling or parent or whatever. Here, we know why Beth dislikes Kevin, and we also know that Kevin can be a jackass a lot of the time, especially to Randall. 

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Everything else you mentioned is a separate matter.  Yes, I definitely noticed that the first thing Rebecca did when Kevin got there was talk to him about Randall and how football had to include Kate.  Although to be fair, Jack was supposed to be finding an activity Kate would like, not shoehorn her into Kevin's activity.  And, no Rebecca, you were not watching KEvin throw and he has eyes and he can see that.  But, life doesn't stop for the rest of the family when a kid goes to camp.  So, there was no reason not to start their two week vacation a few days earlier.

True, but it also gives said kid a reason to feel left out. An adult might understand why this might happen. A kid just sees that his family decided to go on vacation early without them and that they missed out on a few days. Couple that with Rebecca and Jack not sacrificing their Randall/Kate time to spend with Kevin, who just arrived at the cabin, and I think it can bring up some negative feelings. It may not be the worst thing Jack or Rebecca have done and it may seem relatively minor, but even those minor moments can stick with someone. It still kind of goes to show that Rebecca and Jack weren't thinking of their whole family when Jack made the decision to take the family on a vacation to the cabin. Not entirely, anyway. 

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

One thing about the cabin scenes -- Randall and Kate just happened to be awakened by the thunderstorm earlier than Kevin did, and hence were in the bed with their parents, leaving no room for him.  That was happenstance, no one was leaving Kevin out, yet Rebecca went and slept on the hard floor next to him.  That says a lot about her; I don't know that I would have done it.  No, I know I wouldn't have.  When my kids were little and looking for storm comfort and the bed was full, I would make a little nest on the floor right next to the bed with blankets and pillows underneath to make it softer, but we had carpet, too.  That cabin floor looked like it didn't.  Yet she went down there despite the fact that he had been quite unlovable that day.  I give her an 'A' for parenting Kevin right there.  She recognized his need and responded to it. 

That was a really, really nice moment. It may have been a small thing, but it was a very poignant one. And I love that it was Rebecca who did it. Add that with the present day scene with Rebecca finally coming to the realisation that she may have treated Kevin unfairly by accident and her promise to do better now, and I'm pleased with how this has turned out with Rebecca/Kevin's relationship. 

[Eaglemama]

9 hours ago, Rowan said:

This show isn't perfect, but I love how they all have their moments. I liked that Kevin finally said he felt less loved and I liked how Randall immediately jumped to his mother's defense. It's exactly what would happen. 

I'm cool with Beth not liking Kevin. It's ok if she doesn't care for him. She doesn't go out of her way to be a bitch to him. Her loyalty lies with Randall, and I'm sure hearing how young Kevin took out his frustrations on Randall didn't exactly endear him to her. And, while she's aloof with regard to him, she's admitted that he can be charming and that he's a good looking man. I like that she doesn't suffer fools. 

I may be the only one, but I hope we at least get a scene of Kevin apologizing to Sophie for being a douche who swept back into her life begging for that second chance only to get it and then cruelly flush it. 

I was thinking the same thing about Sophie.   I know she is pregnant in real life and taking some time off.  Hope they bring her back like she seemed to think would happen.

[Biggie B]

It was interesting to me that Kevin felt he was overlooked by his parents. We have seen that Jack was Kevin's adoring fan and supporter - never missed a game, took videos, and was clearly very invested in Kevin playing college and hopefully pro football. I guess that didn't compare to the amount of time or quality of time that Kate spent with Jack, and Randall spent with Rebecca. Kevin isn't wrong - he was the odd kid out at times, and it has affected almost every aspect of his adult life to date. He has a long road ahead of him, if he wants to try to work on this. He will never have the chance to confront Jack about any of it, and that's a problem/challenge as well.

What I liked about this episode was that it showed how we viewers can be completely pissed off or annoyed by a character one moment, and then suddenly sympathize/empathize with them the next. I like that it's not completely cut and dry. Even when one of the characters says or does something completely idiotic/offensive/nonsensical, etc., there is another moment or line of dialogue that counters that off-putting moment. 

I had to laugh when the three siblings were sitting on the bench, and Randall said he wished that their life had been videoed so that they could go back and review it...well, it has been! That's what we're all watching! Ha!

[Lady Calypso]

6 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Kids pull that crap because they want you to react, they want you to beg for their love, they want you to feel badly.  The best reaction is to ignore it or laugh it off.  Don't validate it by making a big deal of it.

True, but I think it was a very blatant callback to earlier in the episode, with Jack and Kate, when Kate ran off because she was upset, and Jack immediately chased after her. Kevin was clearly upset, he ran off, but Rebecca didn't chase after him. I actually loved that they included this little moment. Yes, Kevin was being a brat and I don't blame Rebecca for not running after him and letting him cool off. But I think it was the show's way of showing that nobody runs after Kevin when he needs it, and it also ties into what Rebecca says later in the episode about it being easier to love and bond with Randall compared to Kevin.

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

So would I.  That seems to be an ongoing situation throughout.  She's right about being "the bad guy".  For example, she suggests to Kate that she slice up an apple for herself and Kate because they've both had enough cookies for the day, and Jack enters the house announcing they're going on vacation.  And, she really is undermined at every turn when it comes to her concern re Kate's eating, and I'm sure it would not be long before you would feel so alone in it.  But Jack loving his little girl so much and seeing her as the most perfect and beautiful human being would be, I am sure, very hard to fight.  It would have been nice if Rebecca and Jack had been on the same page with concern for Kate's weight and health. 

I was the bad guy/enforcer when I was the at home parent, and then when we switched places, I was still the bad guy/enforcer. It is exhausting and lonely to be the one to enforce the rules and make the kids do things they don't want to do. It particularly rankled when the mister would propose something in front of the kids, without discussing it with me first. Or would say "your mother wants you to..." whatever the chore was. But he was a great Dad (and husband) in many other ways, so I kept him. ;)

10 hours ago, milner said:

I agree with the writer earlier who said that losing a parent at 17 is awful but it shouldn't have paralyzed them for the rest of their lives.  My mother died when I was fourteen and as the only girl all the household chores--cooking, shopping, cleaning, laundry etc--fell to me.  In that regard, the lives of my father and brothers didn't change.  But I can't sit around whining about it.  I am a grown up.  And my brothers and I get on just fine.  I can't go back and relive my life, one can only go forward.   

I tend experience grief the way you do, but not everyone does. My parents and siblings are all gone, and for the most part I dealt with it and moved on. But this Christmas - years since I lost the last member of my family, for some reason I was brought to my knees by the fact I had no one from my childhood to call or have over. I was totally blindsided.

As for Beth, my take is that she hates Kevin primarily because he hurt Randall so much as a child. I probably see it that way, because that is the way I am with anyone who has hurt my husband or kids. They might forgive and forget, but I never do. I won't be rude, if they are back in their lives, but I'll always be wary of them.

All that being said, I loved this episode. And I can see that Kate's issues with food also have to do with associating food with the love of her favorite parent. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Clanstarling

[J0nas3]

1 hour ago, Trillium said:

 

I liked the therapist though. She didn’t let Kevin continue the fake politeness and made him get real with his family. And shutting down Kate, Rebecca and Randall when they tried to correct his feelings was also a good move. And Rebecca. Oh man as a mother of two boys, although they are young, I got it. My oldest is easy, he’s well behaved and no trouble at all. I don’t worry about him. My younger one is an emotional vampire. He’s three but he’s definitely more challenging then the other one was at that age. I struggle with the fact that I give way less attention to the older one. My normally robotic self lost it when Rebecca did. It hit a very real nerve. It was very real. 

I’ve already admitted that I didn’t care for the therapist so take this with a grain of salt, but one thing that struck me, when I just watched That Was Us, they showed the scene where Keven is essentially yelling at his mother to admit she loves Randall more, and my question was, the therapist did nothing there? The point of the meeting was to let his feelings out, fine, but he’s haranguing his mother about this, and she’s quiet? Does that mean she agrees with Kevin? It led to Rebecca’s breakdown, which was great for drama, but it just irritated me.

Edited January 10, 2018 by J0nas3
Typos will tear me apart

[PRgal]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I agree with this.  With Kate, she is making some forward progress relationship-wise because she and Toby have a pretty healthy one where he accepts her and she feels loved.  She still has a lot of work to do with her eating but she is becoming more analytical about that, too.  Randall also has a healthy relationship with Beth and an ongoing closeness with his mom.  Kevin has none of the relationship advantages that Randall and Kate currently do, plus he had a more fraught relationship with Jack right before he died. 

One thing about the cabin scenes -- Randall and Kate just happened to be awakened by the thunderstorm earlier than Kevin did, and hence were in the bed with their parents, leaving no room for him.  That was happenstance, no one was leaving Kevin out, yet Rebecca went and slept on the hard floor next to him.  That says a lot about her; I don't know that I would have done it.  No, I know I wouldn't have.  When my kids were little and looking for storm comfort and the bed was full, I would make a little nest on the floor right next to the bed with blankets and pillows underneath to make it softer, but we had carpet, too.  That cabin floor looked like it didn't.  Yet she went down there despite the fact that he had been quite unlovable that day.  I give her an 'A' for parenting Kevin right there.  She recognized his need and responded to it. 

But we don't know whether Rebecca was still with Kevin the next morning.  Kevin might not have known that his mom was with him.  However, if he did, it could have been the only moment in his life he REALLY felt loved, hence contributing to the issues he has now. :( 

[JudyObscure]

5 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

The way Beth criticized Kevin was no different than most people criticizing rich celebrities who get away with things most of us would go to jail for. Wonder what makes Beth criticizing Kevin different?

Kevin is a member of her extended family. Beth knows him, has seen his affection for her husband and his sweet side with her children.  If Beth thinks the only requirement for happiness is being white and middle class then she is a very materialistic, superficial person, and little children aren't making income comparisons with other people, they just want to feel loved and secure inside their own little world.

I loved the therapist sticking up for Kevin and the other one's shocked faces when she did it. They all thought they were just coming to support him in an "intervention" way and never expected  what they got. 

I love them all though and the natural, in character, moments as they learned a few things about themselves and Kevin.

That therapy session and this show have the same message -- that our childhood is always part of us and everything that happened to us while we were young effects the rest of our lives.  It's not at all odd to me that the Pearson kids are still getting over their father's death, in some since they're still getting over that day at the pool.  Looking at all that is what therapy is for.  I loved this episode!

[MissLucas]

That was a fantastic episode. I was about to drop the show because Randall never acknowledged what Kevin did for him last season. Glad it was finally addressed - as so many other things. Kevin put out some truth bombs about Randall that I think will come back later. Like others I agree about Beth and her anger - some of it is justified but it starts to look more and more like she's also using Kevin as lightning rod for her issues with Randall. Her snappy 'We all know' was funny but it also pointed at something less funny.

The therapy session was painful to watch. But it certainly was revealing too - interesting that the only person not losing it in there was Kate. I also loved 'the others' - especially their talk about the no-fly zone. That was some fantastic writing.

[Biggie B]

What did you all make of Kate saying to Kevin, "I took my eye off the ball. You are the ball."  And no one rebutted that. I know this was Kevin's session, and that they weren't there to help Kate work through her issues. And her miscarriage was acknowledged. But still - that is some grist for the mill for Kate. She clearly has guilt over not saving Kevin from himself, even though he's an adult; she no longer works for him and or has 24/7 access; and she had and still has her own problems and challenges going on. But saying that she took her eye off the ball/Kevin is something for another therapist to address with Kate! A part of me, though, wanted Kevin to say to Kate, in response, "Hey, no - it wasn't your responsibility to keep me on the straight and narrow," or something like that. I just found that moment a bit sad for Kate, even though I'm sure no one, Kevin included, blames her at all. It's interesting that that's how she saw Kevin's descent into drinking/drug use, though.

[Lady Calypso]

I think what is most interesting about the therapy scene is by the end of the episode, none of it actually gets resolved. What everyone said in therapy will come back at some point. Kate's realization about her addiction being food may help her to deal with that in the future (and it seems like it has started, with her being honest to Toby about binging). Rebecca's blurt about it being easier to love Randall started her process in mending her relationship with Kevin, as she's now going to start being there as a true support system, which is good. Both Rebecca and Kate will probably grow quicker with the therapy session in some ways (at least, I hope so). But as for Kevin and especially Randall? It might be a longer road for both of them. What Kevin told everyone in therapy was needed and he made some really strong points. He also didn't get rude or really lash out until Randall pushed him to that point. 

I do want to point out that Beth may hate Kevin, but she doesn't realize that Kevin actually stood up for her in therapy, when he brought up the point to Randall about him bringing in life changing people without consulting Beth or the kids. Actually, that's a character flaw we've seen in Jack, so it's very interesting to see Randall share that similarity with his father. But I don't think Randall is going to want to deal with Kevin's truth right away, though it'll be interesting on if those words sink into Randall's head. 

But I think what's going to come back to bite them in the back is what Randall said to Kevin. In the end, Randall never acknowledged that Kevin had an addiction; he may have apologized for not being supportive of Kevin in therapy, but he didn't change his mind about seeing Kevin's addiction as more about attention than a drug addiction. 

[Ohiopirate02]

That was a wonderful episode, and I am glad that nothing was resolved.  I really hope in future episodes we see more of Kevin's therapy sessions and that the include Rebecca.  I still remember from last season, where it was revealed that she had never made it out to California to see a taping of Kevin's show.  That still has to hurt Kevin and I hope Rebecca can see how much she inadvertently hurt him over the years. 

Another thing that I wish would be addressed is that Kevin lost more than Kate and Randall when they were 17.  Yes he lost his father, but Kevin also lost the only thing he was good at.  I cannot even contemplate being 17 and having to figure out his new life plan without a parent. 

[Empress1]

6 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think what is most interesting about the therapy scene is by the end of the episode, none of it actually gets resolved. What everyone said in therapy will come back at some point. Kate's realization about her addiction being food may help her to deal with that in the future (and it seems like it has started, with her being honest to Toby about binging). Rebecca's blurt about it being easier to love Randall started her process in mending her relationship with Kevin, as she's now going to start being there as a true support system, which is good. Both Rebecca and Kate will probably grow quicker with the therapy session in some ways (at least, I hope so). But as for Kevin and especially Randall? It might be a longer road for both of them. What Kevin told everyone in therapy was needed and he made some really strong points. He also didn't get rude or really lash out until Randall pushed him to that point. 

I was surprised that this appears to be the first time anyone has brought up this idea to Kate. I would think the idea might have come up during Overeaters Anonymous.

[Blakeston]

I don't buy for a second that Rebecca's only reason for giving Randall more attention than Kevin was because she felt that Randall needed it more. That was certainly part of it - but she also had a lot more affection for Randall than either of his siblings. With her over-the-top doting on Randall, she sent a crystal clear message that Randall was her favorite. Just like Jack made it clear that Kate was his favorite.

How many scenes and photos do we need to see where Rebecca is hugging Randall, Jack is hugging Kate, and Kevin is on his own? Both Rebecca and Jack were very good parents in other ways, but there was no excuse for how obvious they were with their favoritism.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Blakeston

[screenaddict]

I have two kids. I love them both deeply and passionately. I'd trade my life to save them.

But, one is so much easier to love. She doesn't put up walls. She's typically pretty nice to her parents. The other has been a bigger challenge, not only to us, but to a lot of people in her life. Paradoxically, I sometimes feel like I have to love her more, to make up for the fact that she's not as easy to love as the other one. I imagine these conflicts are multiplied when you have three kids who are the same age - you lose the excuse of "well, she's younger so she needs us more" or "he's older and can be more independent now."

Rebecca's obsession with Kate's weight is really grating on me. I knew many young women who grew up with parents who made comments about their daughters' weight - the freshman 15 was akin to going out and kicking puppies. Rebecca singled out Kate for her eating and exercise habits. Instead of ridding the house of sugary cereals, she fed them to the boys and gave Kate a grapefruit. Instead of forcing Kate to do something physical she despised, why didn't the parents look for opportunities for the whole family to enjoy some physical activity?

I know the answer. Because parents aren't perfect. They make mistakes, even when they're doing their best. This show does a phenomenal job of illustrating this. 

[Katy M]

I agree that they should have not been keeping sugary cereals and cookies in the house.  When one kid needs to be on a restricted diet, the whole house should be, for the most part.  But, there's also the possibility that Rebecca tried to do this and Jack kept buying junk food when he went out.  We've seen how he undermines her on this issue.

[Runningwild]

Thought of something else. What would Kevin go to jail for? Are the penalties that stiff wherever it happened? There was no personal injury and no damage. He wouldn’t even be charged with a felony in FL. Even then, here they hardly ever go to jail for DUI.  It’s usually probation. 

[AriAu]

Here is what I don't get-Jack was an alcoholic....no question, but how did that affect the family...how did it make the lives of the Big 3 any worse? Jack's dad was an abusive asshole, who tore his family apart, but Jack still seemed like a model father and family member other than punching out the band dude who was hitting on Rebecca. So why does this fact lower his saint like position? Are we going to get a later reveal?

I get that there appears to be some genetic connection with alcoholism and other forms of addiction, but was this all to point out that Jack's genes may have left them messed up.

Edited January 10, 2018 by AriAu

[ShadowFacts]

41 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

But I think what's going to come back to bite them in the back is what Randall said to Kevin. In the end, Randall never acknowledged that Kevin had an addiction; he may have apologized for not being supportive of Kevin in therapy, but he didn't change his mind about seeing Kevin's addiction as more about attention than a drug addiction. 

I think that his need for attention, which he didn't deny, is part and parcel of his drug addiction.  Trying to fill a need, a void, block out pain -- it's all tied up together. 

Just now, Runningwild said:

Thought of something else. What would Kevin go to jail for? Are the penalties that stiff wherever it happened? There was no personal injury and no damage. He wouldn’t even be charged with a felony in FL. Even then, here they hardly ever go to jail for DUI.  It’s usually probation. 

  I just googled New Jersey's DWI law and apparently having a minor in the car can result in jail time. 

[Lady Calypso]

Also, quick question: was Kevin still on the East Coast for rehab? I ask because only Toby and Kate seemed to pack luggage, and Rebecca/Miguel seemed to get there first before the others. Plus, I don't think Beth would have honestly flown cross country for Kevin's therapy session. 

[Runningwild]

Just now, ShadowFacts said:

  I just googled New Jersey's DWI law and apparently having a minor in the car can result in jail time. 

Can. They use scoresheets and if it’s his first offense and he has a good lawyer, he would probably get probation. Same with Randall or Beth or any of them. 

[ShadowFacts]

1 minute ago, Runningwild said:

Can. They use scoresheets and if it’s his first offense and he has a good lawyer, he would probably get probation. Same with Randall or Beth or any of them. 

Yes, that's sometimes the case, but laws are on the books for reasons, and in my state, though a first offense (leaving out the child part) isn't a felony, there will always be more than probation -- loss of license, alcohol assessment, a fine.  Otherwise there is no deterrence.  And it's a bit of an open question as to whether a celebrity will get the same treatment as joe blow off the street.  Maybe, maybe not. 

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, quick question: was Kevin still on the East Coast for rehab? I ask because only Toby and Kate seemed to pack luggage, and Rebecca/Miguel seemed to get there first before the others. Plus, I don't think Beth would have honestly flown cross country for Kevin's therapy session. 

Yes.  He's still on the East Coast.  He committed the crime in New Jersey, and was sentenced to rehab in that state, so I would think he would have to do it in that state.

 

6 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, that's sometimes the case, but laws are on the books for reasons, and in my state, though a first offense (leaving out the child part) isn't a felony, there will always be more than probation -- loss of license, alcohol assessment, a fine.  Otherwise there is no deterrence.  And it's a bit of an open question as to whether a celebrity will get the same treatment as joe blow off the street.  Maybe, maybe not. 

I've never known anyone to get more than a weekend of jail time until the third offense.  But, yes, he probably did lose his license (suspended anyway).  I've never known anyone to lose their license permanently.  And I know two people who have had 3 DUIs and one of those was driving on a suspended license at the time.  Actually, I know someone whose boyfriend had 3rd DUI on a suspended license and he ran from the cops and he still got his license back eventually.  This is why it's all just a bunch of BS in my opinion.  You have to actually kill someone before you get any real deterrence to not go out and kill someone.

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, that's sometimes the case, but laws are on the books for reasons, and in my state, though a first offense (leaving out the child part) isn't a felony, there will always be more than probation -- loss of license, alcohol assessment, a fine.  Otherwise there is no deterrence.  And it's a bit of an open question as to whether a celebrity will get the same treatment as joe blow off the street.  Maybe, maybe not. 

True. Which is why Kevin got court-ordered rehab. I think that was the "more than" part of his punishment. It probably did help that Tess likely advocated for Kevin by telling someone that she snuck into the car without Kevin knowing, which at least didn't get him thrown in jail for endangering her life. 

15 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think that his need for attention, which he didn't deny, is part and parcel of his drug addiction.  Trying to fill a need, a void, block out pain -- it's all tied up together. 

For sure. I think even Kevin himself admitted that he filled the void he felt through sports, acting, and fame, which is all part of his need for attention. But Randall didn't come out and say at the end of the episode that he acknowledged that Kevin also had a drug addiction, something he did deny in the therapy session, which means he may still hold that viewpoint. I think it was telling that Randall's speech to Kevin and Kate on the bench was about seeing things through different lenses. Again, not a bad thing for Randall to say, but it's why I think those words will come back up later this season or next season in some way. 

[ChicksDigScars]

17 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I was ticked when Randall told Kevin his addiction was attention, he can be too self righteous sometimes. But glad the 3 had the talk afterwards.

I was the opposite. I did a fist pump. Yes, Randall is self-righteous, but I'm sorry, Kevin, the "poor meeeeee" routine is getting old. You were a moody, disrespectful child who got away with treating your parents like crap.  But, oh, poor meeeee. I was a big football star that everyone adored. Poor meeeee, my parents sent me to football camps and my dad taped me during games and was cheering at every game....but they didn't love meeeee best.  Even though you were referred to as "Number ONE" your entire life.  You were first in your parents unintended, subliminal ranking system, but that still wasn't good enough. Randall was right about him.

The one thing that Kevin was right about, for me,  was his comments that addiction is passed on. Jack's dad passed it on to Jack, and Jack passed it on to Kate, except her addiction is food. Kevin, maybe. I tend to agree that he's not a long time addict. He's an attention whore.  And his comment about Randall "taking in strangers"  around his wife and kids, was a little bit of truth.  Cold, but still a bit truthful. 

And Ellis Grey is a terrible therapist!!

Edited January 10, 2018 by ChicksDigScars

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, ChicksDigScars said:

And Ellis Grey is a terrible therapist!!

To be fair, she's not just some typical therapist. She's an addiction therapist, which means the person in rehab is her number one priority. 

[chabelisaywow]

So.. I have a question about the glasses.
Did Kevin really take them?

He looks under his bed first and then finds them under Randall's (?) bed.

[Lady Calypso]

11 minutes ago, chabelisaywow said:

So.. I have a question about the glasses.
Did Kevin really take them?

He looks under his bed first and then finds them under Randall's (?) bed.

No, he did not take them. He saw them under Randall's bed next to, I think, a book. Randall likely set them down or accidentally dropped them. I think, if Kevin had taken them, he would have stashed them somewhere else, like under his pillow (which I admit that I thought about at first). It was lucky that Kevin caught a glimpse of the glasses when he woke up as well. 

[Ohiopirate02]

10 minutes ago, chabelisaywow said:

So.. I have a question about the glasses.
Did Kevin really take them?

He looks under his bed first and then finds them under Randall's (?) bed.

I don't think Kevin took the glasses.  I think Randall misplaced them and Rebecca jumped to the conclusion that Kevin was hiding them. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, quick question: was Kevin still on the East Coast for rehab? I ask because only Toby and Kate seemed to pack luggage, and Rebecca/Miguel seemed to get there first before the others. Plus, I don't think Beth would have honestly flown cross country for Kevin's therapy session. 

There was a big sign for Sequoia National Park on one of the walls. I can’t remember if it was at the rehab place or at the bar, but I assumed that meant the rehab place  was somewhere in California. 

[greekmom]

13 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think, when it comes to Beth, she's always going to find a way to blame Kevin, whether it's his fault or not. She has a good reason to not like him; he's not been kind to Randall. In fact, Kevin and Randall are still working on their relationship. And, Kevin's fault or not, Tess was in the car. She could have gotten hurt. And Beth has her blinders on when it comes to that. Which is fair of her to do, and she also mentioned that he could have hurt people out on the road (though I disagree partially with her line about Kevin consciously getting behind the wheel, because that was something that spirals into the complexities of addiction and how responsible the addict is once they get into a vicious cycle of addiction). It's really hard to draw a line there, I think 

 

 

Which I get in a way but I was under the assumption that Kevin and Randall have patched things up within the last, say 5-7 years.   It was Kevin who ran to Randall and helped him when he had a panic attack. It was Kevin who recognized the signs that something was going on.  Kevin for being antagonistic to Randall as kids and teens, really has been looking out for him.

 

6 hours ago, debraran said:

Yes, poor Kevin is hated by some fans because when is there a flashback that has them getting along and not separated. My sisters fought a lot, a year apart, physical and yelling and were opposites but had many nice moments too and it was a roller coaster ride. Now as adults they are close again. Was it that Randall was "different" and he didn't like it or what his friends said (although young children usually are kinder) Was it that he knew about Kyle and didn't know how to process it? Randall always wanted his attention which is sad, my sisters wern't trying to impress each other, Randall never had the brother bond he wanted so much. Jack in some ways was closer to Kevin because he understood him, they both loved sports, etc. but I don't think he ever ignored him.

 

They also had the model building thing in common which Kevin instigated that he loved to build models to spend more time with Jack.  So I can see him still being the 5th wheel. 

 

Kevin in therapy was bang on.  They are a family (including Randall) of addicts.  Kevin booze and drugs. Kate has food.  Randall is addicted to being a type A perfectionist.  Yet, they swept Jack's addiction under the rug and the fact that they maybe all carrying the addictive gene.

[moonorchid]

Kevin didn’t take the glasses. Randall lost them and Rebecca went to the natural conclusion that Kevin took them considering how he is with Randall and how he’d just been acting. This was a good example of what Kevin is talking about but why Rebecca isn’t a horrible parent, she’s just a parent. Rebecca had every reason to think Kevin took the glasses, I honestly thought he took the glasses. The way he treats Randall normally and the way he has been behaving would lead any parent to think this. I really don’t blame Rebecca for not really believing him (but I commend her for when she said she would believe him and he still said he didnt take them she dropped the subject). But from Kevin’s perspective it’s another instance of his mother constantly not taking his side. 

Whats interrsting about that last scene of Rebecca laying down on the floor with Kevin: she prob woke up before him and he doesn’t know she did that and she prob saw the glasses on the nightstand and will prob think kevin put them there as an apology for taking them. It’s all about perspective. 

[Jillybean]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, quick question: was Kevin still on the East Coast for rehab? I ask because only Toby and Kate seemed to pack luggage, and Rebecca/Miguel seemed to get there first before the others. Plus, I don't think Beth would have honestly flown cross country for Kevin's therapy session. 

Yes, still on the East Coast. Kate was packing the healthy snacks for the plane ride.  Then Toby somehow managed to break a garbage bag that seemed to have nothing but paper products in it.  Throwing away your junk food evidence in the kitchen trash can doesn't really seem like hiding it to me.  Why couldn't she take it out to the same Dumpster where they pitched the shower curtain (that they are now using again -- ick!)?

Edited January 10, 2018 by Jillybean

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, Jillybean said:

Yes, still on the East Coast. Kate was packing the healthy snacks for the plane ride.  Then Toby somehow managed to break a garbage bag that seemed to have nothing but paper products in it.  Throwing away your junk food evidence in the kitchen trash can doesn't really seem like hiding it to me.  Why couldn't she take it out to the same Dumpster where they pitched the shower curtain (that they are now using again -- ick!)?

Not to mention, one thing looked like a KFC container.  You're going to smell that.

[Lady Calypso]

10 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Which I get in a way but I was under the assumption that Kevin and Randall have patched things up within the last, say 5-7 years.   It was Kevin who ran to Randall and helped him when he had a panic attack. It was Kevin who recognized the signs that something was going on.  Kevin for being antagonistic to Randall as kids and teens, really has been looking out for him.

I don't know whether they completely patched things up. Last season, they still had a lot of unresolved tension which led to that fight outside. Randall may have allowed Kevin to come visit, but that was for Tess and Annie. I think Kevin's treated him better in recent years, but they never really resolved their childhood issues until the series started.

3 minutes ago, Jillybean said:

Yes, still on the East Coast. Kate was packing the healthy snacks for the plane ride.  Then Toby somehow managed to break a garbage bag that seemed to have nothing but paper products in it.  Throwing away your junk food evidence in the kitchen trash can doesn't really seem like hiding it to me.  Why couldn't she take it out to the same Dumpster where they pitched the shower curtain (that they are now using again -- ick!)?

I think it was more that she was burying the empty wrappers in the bottom of the trash. Though yeah, you'd think Toby would have figured it out sooner.

[Jodithgrace]

I don't know how many times in my 43-year marriage I have wanted to "go to the videotape," in arguments, which would undoubtedly have proven me correct. So I laughed when Randall mentioned it. It was especially amusing because we are, in fact, watching the videotape of their childhood. if only Keven could have shown the footage of him standing alone with his football, while Rebecca was reading with Randall and Jack was off comforting Kate. 

It's very difficult to assign blame here. Unless the parents are truly abusive, as Jack and Rebecca obviously aren't, all kids grow up with some sort of resentments against their parents and/or siblings which are hard to define or even to resolve. I still have issues with my mother, though she died in 2007. I know that my daughters have issues with me, though we all get along pretty well these days. (it helps that they are no longer in the house) We, as the audience, get a much clearer picture of the Pearson family dynamics then they ever could. That's what makes the show so fascinating to me. We can see that in some ways, everybody's right and everybody's wrong, while each family member just sees things through their own lense. 

I thought this was an excellent episode. 

[Runningwild]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, that's sometimes the case, but laws are on the books for reasons, and in my state, though a first offense (leaving out the child part) isn't a felony, there will always be more than probation -- loss of license, alcohol assessment, a fine.  Otherwise there is no deterrence.  And it's a bit of an open question as to whether a celebrity will get the same treatment as joe blow off the street.  Maybe, maybe not. 

Of course there is always more than just probation. But, Randall was incorrect and a real jerk to Kevin claiming he’s not an addict and anyone else would have gone to jail. 

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, Runningwild said:

Of course there is always more than just probation. But, Randall was incorrect and a real jerk to Kevin claiming he’s not an addict and anyone else would have gone to jail. 

I wish the therapist would have stopped Randall there to explain how easy it is to become addicted to opoids.  I used to work in pharmacy and I would see how doctors would write these like candy while treating the patient.  Then the prescriptions would suddenly stop and the doctors never discussed how to ease off them.  Randall is not much different than many parts of this country.  They see addiction as a moral failing and not the complex issue that it is.  These are not pills that everyone can suddenly stop taking with no adverse effects. 

[MaggieG]

I laughed at Randall falling to the floor when Tess said the babysitter's brownies were better than his.

[ForeverPluto]

5 hours ago, Trillium said:

I very much related to Beth. I have a BIL, coincidently named Kevin, who’s had 3 DUI’s and is a total dick to his parents and my husband. If I was asked to go to some rehab thing to support him, and he came out with the very phony show of sorrows that Kevin did when they first arrived, I’d have nope the fuck out too. That being said, I’d take TIU Kevin a million times over my real BIL. I’m very happy to start seeing the real him, not Actor Kevin Pearson.

I liked the therapist though. She didn’t let Kevin continue the fake politeness and made him get real with his family. And shutting down Kate, Rebecca and Randall when they tried to correct his feelings was also a good move. And Rebecca. Oh man as a mother of two boys, although they are young, I got it. My oldest is easy, he’s well behaved and no trouble at all. I don’t worry about him. My younger one is an emotional vampire. He’s three but he’s definitely more challenging then the other one was at that age. I struggle with the fact that I give way less attention to the older one. My normally robotic self lost it when Rebecca did. It hit a very real nerve. It was very real. 

I could relate to this as well. In my case, I'm like your oldest. I never got in trouble, always made good grades, etc. My youngest sister on the other hand was always getting into something. Because of it, my parents dealt with her and her problems more. Since I was the "good one", I never got the attention that my youngest sibling got. Because of that, I always resented my parents and my sister. That final scene last night with Rebecca and Kevin opened my eyes. My mother has since passed on but when Rebecca told Kevin the kindergarten story, it brought me to tears because it was as if Rebecca was speaking from my own mother's perspective. Last night's episode was amazing as were the actors as always!

[topanga]

1 hour ago, ChicksDigScars said:

I was the opposite. I did a fist pump. Yes, Randall is self-righteous with a lot of people, but I'm sorry, Kevin, the "poor meeeeee" routine is getting old. You were a moody, disrespectful child who got away with treating his parents like crap. .But, oh, poor meeeee. I was a big football star that everyone adored. Poor meeeee, My parents sent me to football camps and my dad taped me during games and was cheering at every game....but they didn't love meeeee best.  Even though you were referred to as "Number ONE" your entire life.  You were first in your parents unintended, subliminal ranking system, but that still wasn't good enough. Randall was right about him.

The only thing Kevin was right about, for me,  was his comments that addiction is passed on. Jack's dad passed it on to Jack, and Jack passed it on to Kate, except her addiction is food. Kevin, maybe. I tend to agree that he's not a long time addict. He's an attention whore.  And his comment about Randall "staking in strangers" around his kids was a little bit of truth.  Cold, but still a bit truthful. 

And Ellis Grey is a terrible therapist!!

 

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

To be fair, she's not just some typical therapist. She's an addiction therapist, which means the person in rehab is her number one priority. 

I’m usually not a huge Kevin supporter, but in this episode, I was on his side 100%. His memories of feeling left out by his parents are supported by evidence from the flashbacks: almost drowning at the pool, for example, his family going on vacation without him instead of waiting a few days till they could pick him up from camp,  and several examples of his parents interacting with him then abruptly interrupting their game or conversation to give their attention to Kate or Randall.  Because Kate and Randall needed them more, supposedly. 

I do think Kevin has numerous privileges by being a straight, white, male. That being said, he’s still an addict. And in his addiction, yes, e’s been an asshole to many people. But I don’t think he was exactly seeking attention during this time. In fact, he tried to avoid interacting with Sophie, with Kate, and even with Randall. And he never wanted to do public appearances.

BTW, you can become physically dependent on opioid medications after only 72 hours of use. Combine this with Kevin’s history of previous opioid addiction and his family history of alcoholism, and you have the perfect set up for addiction.  I agree with other posters who wish the therapy session would have also addressed his pill addiction, not just his alcohol use.

And the therapy session was about Kevin talking to his family about his addiction. I thought Ellis Grey did a great job.

 

3 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

Kevin nailed it in therapy when he called Randall out on his BS. Everything he said about Randall was true. He makes decisions without really caring about how Beth or his kids feel. Frankly, I don't see how Beth can stand him. 

Randall does the same thing Jack did. Makes decisions that affect his wife without discussing them with his wife ahead of time. Expecting his wife to be completely on board with whatever he decides to do, no matter what her opinions might be. Minimizing her wishes and desires, even when it comes to the health of their children. But Jack is still considered “the greatest man you’ll ever know.”

--And do we ever see Jack’s alcoholism affecting his roles as the “perfect” husband and father? Even Rebecca called him perfect during Kevin’s therapy session.

Edited January 10, 2018 by topanga

[movingtargetgal]

1 hour ago, screenaddict said:

Rebecca's obsession with Kate's weight is really grating on me. I knew many young women who grew up with parents who made comments about their daughters' weight - the freshman 15 was akin to going out and kicking puppies. Rebecca singled out Kate for her eating and exercise habits. Instead of ridding the house of sugary cereals, she fed them to the boys and gave Kate a grapefruit. Instead of forcing Kate to do something physical she despised, why didn't the parents look for opportunities for the whole family to enjoy some physical activity?

When I was 7 years old my pediatrician told my mother that I was getting fat and read her the riot act.  He told my mother she was a horrible parent because she allowed me to get fat.  My mother cried hysterically the whole drive home.  That doctor's appointment forever changed the relationship between my mother and me.  She obsessed about my weight and attempted to control EVERYTHING I ate.  She would weigh and measure my food at the dinner table in front of the rest of the family and would make me my own "special" low calorie meals.  For her my being fat was something for her to be ashamed.  For me food and my weight was the one thing I could control.  At the age of 13, my mother took me to a diet doctor who had an assembly line of a practice.  He put me and all of his patients on thyroid pills (no bloodwork), water pills and an "appetite suppressant" or as a later learned amphetamines.  I was going to jr, high with a bagged lunch that included a magic pill to take so I would not eat after school.  I did lose weight but was addicted to the "medicine" and my thyroid was damaged because you do not prescribe synthroid to someone who does not need it especially if she is going through puberty.  When I was thin my relationship with my mother was "healed" and for the first time since I was 7 I felt her love.  I was taken of the medication and I started to gain weight.  At that point she cut herself off from me emotionally, nothing I could ever do will be good enough because I am fat.   I was the first person in my family to go to college and grad school.  I have a good marriage to a wonderful man.  My sister barely finished high school and at the age of twenty was on to her second husband, who went to federal prison for drug dealing.  My sister is probably anorexic and has drug and alcohol issues.  My mother had to pay for boarding school for my niece and nephew because her addiction was so severe.  Yet in my mother's eyes I am the family embarrassment because you can hide addiction and other bad behavior but you can not hide that your daughter is fat, it stares at you in the face and can not be denied.  I still love my mother but she was so toxic to me that I cut her out of my life twelve years ago.  It was the best thing I could have done for myself.

This power struggle over food and weight goes on between so many mothers and daughters.  Rebecca is a loving mother and she does her best with Kate.  However, she is making things so much worse between her and Kate because of the way she is going about it.  She does not need to buy all the junk food, don't but fruit roll-ups just buy the fruit.  Why single Kate out?  It only damages their relationship.  I would love to see adult Kate in eating disorders therapy and have she and Rebecca in therapy together.  Rebecca has gone through the same type of mother/daughter food/weight battles with her own mother.  It would help them connect the dots on how/why food/weight became such an issue between them.....it is a generational issue and just maybe it can all stop with them. 

[Lady Calypso]

9 minutes ago, topanga said:

Randall does the same think Jack did. Makes decisions that affect his wife without discussing them with his wife ahead of time. Expecting his wife to be completely on board with whatever he decides to do, no matter what her opinions might be. Minimizing her wishes and desires, even when it comes to the health of their children. But Jack is still considered “the greatest man you’ll ever know.”

Yeah, pretty much. See this episode, with Rebecca mentioning that Jack's alcoholism was his only flaw, Kate being incredulous at the thought of their family having a history of addiction, Miguel's overcompensation with calling Jack the "best man he's ever known" while not allowing Beth and Toby to talk shit about him, and Randall not choosing to recognize Kevin's addiction. 

It is funny because if Kevin and Beth actually spent some time together, they'd realize they do have some things in common. 

9 minutes ago, topanga said:

--And do we ever see Jack’s alcoholism affecting his roles as the “perfect” husband and father? Even Rebecca called him perfect during Kevin’s therapy session.

Not really. I mean, look at how Jack quit drinking. According to him, he "stopped just like that". He just went to the boxing gym, hit things a few times, and bam! He was all good. He could stop for his family, just like that. Rebecca never seemed to have to worry about Jack struggling to stay sober, even the second time when it put a damper on their marriage. He got to come home, he went to AA, but Rebecca swept it under the rug. 

[moonorchid]

23 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I wish the therapist would have stopped Randall there to explain how easy it is to become addicted to opoids.  I used to work in pharmacy and I would see how doctors would write these like candy while treating the patient.  Then the prescriptions would suddenly stop and the doctors never discussed how to ease off them.  Randall is not much different than many parts of this country.  They see addiction as a moral failing and not the complex issue that it is.  These are not pills that everyone can suddenly stop taking with no adverse effects. 

It’s also been established that Randall is incredibly judgemental and makes no qualms about it. It didn’t surprise me that he thinks this way and said it because of his own preconceived notions of kevin. Its ironic that he calls Kevin an attention whore (so to speak) and Kevin claims that Randall took all their parents attention. 

 

I do hope that comment comes back and is dealt with in some way. Randall prob feels bad saying it and does genuinely want to be there for Kevin and he said as much at the end of the episode, but in the end he doesn’t believe Kevin is an addict cause it’ll give credence to what’s he said in that room about all of them and about jack.