S02.E11: The Fifth Wheel

[PRgal]

@Clanstarling: I don't think Kevin's faking.  He DOES feel that he's ignored (which probably goes back to the pool incident, if not further) and after football (where he was talented and getting attention from coaches/scouts) ended, he turned to acting because that's a way he COULD get attention.  Who knows whether he would turn out the same way if the pool incident did not occur.  As many have brought up, Kevin's feeling of not being loved/getting the same kind of care and attention as the other two was VERY, VERY clear in therapy and we can't discount that.  Just because he has privileges that the other two siblings don't doesn't mean he can't have issues.  And dismissing the fact that he may have issues only hurts him (and others like him) more.  It only continues the stigmatization of mental health.  :( 

[nexxie]

I thought the therapist did her job very well - she knew what she was doing, basically cutting through the defensive bullshit asap.

[tennisgurl]

I generally find the whole "stop complaining because your *insert level of privilege here*" thing to be a pretty counterproductive at best, and showing a certain lack of empathy at worst. Yes, Kevin is a rich white guy, and he is very much aware of the fact that he has privileges that his siblings dont have. That doesn't mean his problems dont count, or that they shouldn't be addressed. He doesn't have to deal with the same things that Randall and Kate do, he still pretty clearly is dealing with depression, drug addiction, and almost crippling self loathing that leads to him lashing at out the people around him. Saying that he shouldn't talk about it or that he should just say "well, I just noticed that I`m a white guy, so my problems have now disappeared" seems to be a very shallow reading of a person. Yeah some people are just rather whiny or like to play the victim, but I dont think its right to treat all people with such broad strokes. People are more than just what their background is, even if that does affect their lives. Saying that some people arnt allowed to express negative feelings because of something they cant really control just leads repression or resentment, in my experience. Besides, life isn't about a never ending contest of whos life sucks the most. There is pretty much always going to be someone out there who has a worse life than you, but that doesn't mean you dont deserve to be happy too. You should be aware that some people have it worse, for reasons they have no control over, and be understanding of that, but it still doesn't mean you shouldn't acknowledge and deal with your own stuff. 

An aspect of Kevin s problems that hasn't been talked about as much is that he has a serious case of self hatred. It was most evident in his spotlight episode, but its always been there, and to me, its as big of a part of his problems then him feeling ignored by his family, or feeling weird about his privilege levels. He truly seems to think that he is an awful, terrible person, and he is horrified that no one seems to "see" how awful he is. I think that could possibly tie into the whole privilege in this discussion. He has gotten to the point where he feels like he doesn't deserve all the breaks he has gotten because, again, he thinks he is a bad, awful human being.

I dont think Kevin has really bottomed out yet. He seems to be in a better place now (of course, before now he was basically the walking dead), but I dont think its over yet. I still see a relapse in his future, especially as he still hasn't really dealt with the biggest problems he has. 

[Driad]

Guessing that someone said the whole family should go there for the session, and it was not clear that the in-laws were not included.

Randall's biological father was an addict, and maybe his birth mother too.  So if addictive tendencies can be inherited, he gets them that way as well as from having Jack aw an adoptive father.

[Guest]

All three children have immense privilege, but it doesn’t make them immune from problems and I’m glad the show somewhat explores that. 

Kevin has the most outwardly visible privilege. Good looking, former football star, actor, white male yet struggles with addiction to painkillers and feeling unnoticed.

Randall is extremely intelligent which opened a ton of doors for him and is his mom’s golden child, yet suffers from crippling anxiety and seems to have some abandonment issues from his birth.

Kate had a loving, stable home growing up, was able to work as her brother’s assistant when she needed a job and didn’t finish school, but she struggles with her weight and food addiction. 

[nexxie]

Rebecca seems to have a heart-to-heart connection with Randall that isn’t there with One and Two.

[memememe76]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

 

An aspect of Kevin s problems that hasn't been talked about as much is that he has a serious case of self hatred. It was most evident in his spotlight episode, but its always been there, and to me, its as big of a part of his problems then him feeling ignored by his family, or feeling weird about his privilege levels. He truly seems to think that he is an awful, terrible person, and he is horrified that no one seems to "see" how awful he is. I think that could possibly tie into the whole privilege in this discussion. He has gotten to the point where he feels like he doesn't deserve all the breaks he has gotten because, again, he thinks he is a bad, awful human being.

I dont think Kevin has really bottomed out yet. He seems to be in a better place now (of course, before now he was basically the walking dead), but I dont think its over yet. I still see a relapse in his future, especially as he still hasn't really dealt with the biggest problems he has. 

Interesting point here. Kevin may not be able to articulate his privilege, but he feels it. He knows how Kate has suffered, and while not for him enough, he has seen enough of Randall's struggles.

While a what if Jack scenario could be played out, I wonder what would have happened if Kyle survived the birth but became severely disabled. The same scenario would probably play out, where Kevin feels left out. 

[mommalib]

41 minutes ago, nexxie said:

Rebecca seems to have a heart-to-heart connection with Randall that isn’t there with One and Two.

Like she said he was and is the easiest to love. He never pushed her away or abandoned her or blamed her for any of his problems. And unlike Kevin and Kate, Randall was always respectful to her and I think they share common interest. With Kevin it was always a push and pull not mention he was kind of ass even as a kid. And Kate always made her the villain and Jack the hero.

[DebbieM4]

22 hours ago, Kira53 said:

 In my opinion going to camp is a vacation. The other two siblings were not on a vacation at camp which is a special privilege so I don’t see that Randall and Kate should’ve been deprived a few extra days at the cabin because Kevin was at a special camp developing his athletic skills. Kids aren’t the same, they can’t all be treated the same at every point in time. Just like Randall got the opportunity to go to an elite school because that was his talent.   I can see that Kevin might have felt they had gotten something that he hadn’t because often people don’t see what they do get that somebody else doesn’t get. 

 

For me it's not about being on vacation.  It's about being excluded from something that the rest of the family was enjoying together.  It's about being considered unimportant enough to not even be told that this was the plan.  It's about arriving for a "family vacation" only to discover that a lot of it had already happened without him.  It's about the completely understandable feeling that a "family vacation" should have been planned for a time when all of them could be there together.  And it's yet another example of the focus being on Kate and Randall with Kevin once again being treated as an after-thought.

Camp is different.  An elite school is different.  Children that age should not be deliberately excluded from any part of a family vacation by their parents.  I don't think it was so much that Kevin thought the others were getting something he hadn't.  I think it was more that they all happily headed off on what was supposed to be a "family" vacation - without him.    Which completely fed into the way he had already been made to feel time and time again.

Edited January 12, 2018 by DebbieM4
corrected word

[mommalib]

4 minutes ago, DebbieM4 said:

For me it's not about being on vacation.  It's about being excluded from something that the rest of the family was enjoying together.  It's about being considered unimportant enough to not even be told that this was the plan.  It's about arriving for a "family vacation" only to discover that a lot of it had already happened without him.  It's about the completely understandable feeling that a "family vacation" should have been planned for a time when all of them could be there together.  And it's yet another example of the focus being on Kate and Randall with Kevin once again being treated as an after-thought.

Camp is different.  An elite school is different.  Children that age should not be deliberately excluded from any part of a family vacation by their parents.  I don't think it was so much that Kevin thought the others were getting something he wasn't.  I think it was more that they all happily headed off on what was supposed to be a "family" vacation - without him.    Which completely fed into the way he had already been made to feel time and time again.

It's not like Jack and Rebecca took Randall and Kate on vacation and just left Kevin at home he was at camp for god's sake. Kevin doesn't know what it's like to be abandoned or discarded but yet i'm supposed to sympathize with him like he does. It seems like the issue Kevin has along with the with the fans of the character is that he's not always the center of the universe.

[Runningwild]

4 minutes ago, mommalib said:

It's not like Jack and Rebecca took Randall and Kate on vacation and just left Kevin at home he was at camp for god's sake. Kevin doesn't know what it's like to be abandoned or discarded but yet i'm supposed to sympathize with him like he does. It seems like the issue Kevin has along with the with the fans of the character is that he's not always the center of the universe.

White and good looking doesn’t make your life perfect. Kevin is hardly ever the center of attention in his own family. Just look how they all walked out on the taping. 

 

He wasn’t left at home just left out. No one likes that. Rebecca couldn’t even be bothered to look at his trophies or listen to him or watch him at all. I can assure you he does know what it’s like to be discarded. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by Runningwild

[DebbieM4]

3 minutes ago, mommalib said:

It's not like Jack and Rebecca took Randall and Kate on vacation and just left Kevin at home he was at camp for god's sake. Kevin doesn't know what it's like to be abandoned or discarded but yet i'm supposed to sympathize with him like he does. It seems like the issue Kevin has along with the with the fans of the character is that he's not always the center of the universe.

Yes, he was at camp.  So a family vacation should have been planned for a time when all of them could go.   That's pretty much the point of a family vacation, especially when kids are that age.  I don't think he initially ever wanted to be the center of the universe.  He just wanted to be noticed and acknowledged the way the other two were.  His need for attention came from not receiving enough from his parents.  It became "Look at me" because no one was doing that.

(At the very least, his parents should have clued him in.  "We'll go to the cabin on Monday, and then you'll join us on Thursday.  We'll all have a great time together!".  But they didn't do that.  Instead, he was blindsided by being made to feel that he was arriving at a party that had already started days before without his knowledge - and without him.  This is his family - the people he's supposed to be able to rely on to not make him feel that way.)

[mommalib]

6 minutes ago, DebbieM4 said:

Yes, he was at camp.  So a family vacation should have been planned for a time when all of them could go.   That's pretty much the point of a family vacation, especially when kids are that age.  I don't think he initially ever wanted to be the center of the universe.  He just wanted to be noticed and acknowledged the way the other two were.  His need for attention came from not receiving enough from his parents.  It became "Look at me" because no one was doing that.

(At the very least, his parents should have clued him in.  "We'll go to the cabin on Monday, and then you'll join us on Thursday.  We'll all have a great time together!".  But they didn't do that.  Instead, he was blindsided by being made to feel that he was arriving at a party that had already started days before without his knowledge - and without him.  This is his family - the people he's supposed to be able to rely on to not make him feel that way.)

Like I said Kevin has know what it feels like to be abandoned, discarded or neglected. He was loved by his parents and he got attention he just didn't get all of it and he didn't require as much of it as his more troubled siblings. If he wasn't so selfish and attention seeking he would see that. Kevin needs to grow up.

18 minutes ago, Runningwild said:

White and good looking doesn’t make your life perfect. Kevin is hardly ever the center of attention in his own family. Just look how they all walked out on the taping. 

 

He wasn’t left at home just left out. No one likes that. Rebecca couldn’t even be bothered to look at his trophies or listen to him or watch him at all. I can assure you he does know what it’s like to be discarded. 

Trust me he doesn't.

[DebbieM4]

18 minutes ago, Runningwild said:

White and good looking doesn’t make your life perfect. Kevin is hardly ever the center of attention in his own family. Just look how they all walked out on the taping. 

 

He wasn’t left at home just left out. No one likes that. Rebecca couldn’t even be bothered to look at his trophies or listen to him or watch him at all. I can assure you he does know what it’s like to be discarded. 

Exactly.

I had forgotten about the taping.  There are many other examples, too.  So yes, he does know what it feels like to be discarded.  And unimportant.  And invisible.

[mommalib]

10 minutes ago, DebbieM4 said:

Exactly.

I had forgotten about the taping.  There are many other examples, too.  So yes, he does know what it feels like to be discarded.  And unimportant.  And invisible.

Kevin was loved and not mistreated. He was nicknamed number one and considered the strongest and most well adjusted. His parents told Kate and Randall to look at Kevin as an example. His parent came to all of his games and rooted and cheered him on. Did he get ALL of the attention? No, but it's doesn't sound like he was invisible either.

[izabella]

22 minutes ago, mommalib said:

Like I said Kevin has know what it feels like to be abandoned, discarded or neglected. He was loved by his parents and he got attention he just didn't get all of it and he didn't require as much of it as his more troubled siblings. If he wasn't so selfish and attention seeking he would see that. Kevin needs to grow up.

I think Kevin very much did require just as much attention as Kate and Randall.  That's why he's having issues now; he didn't get the attention he needed.

[mommalib]

It was just brought to mt attention that Kevin had a line to Randall in season 1 about having to compete with another black guy after he was replaced in the Manny. I hope that gets addressed so people can stop acting like it isn't a factor in Kevin's hostility to Randall.

1 minute ago, izabella said:

I think Kevin very much did require just as much attention as Kate and Randall.  That's why he's having issues now; he didn't get the attention he needed.

How did he require as much attention? He did not have the issues that Kate and Especially Randal did.

[izabella]

6 minutes ago, mommalib said:

How did he require as much attention? He did not have the issues that Kate and Especially Randal did.

He needed it, not because he was a problem child, but because he was a child.  Jack took Kate out for ice cream daily.  Did Jack do anything with Kevin daily?   Rebecca didn't look at Kevin's trophies, but sat and read a book next to Randall.  That's the kind of attention Kevin needed and didn't get and left him feeling ignored.

[mommalib]

4 minutes ago, izabella said:

He needed it, not because he was a problem child, but because he was a child.  Jack took Kate out for ice cream daily.  Did Jack do anything with Kevin daily?   Rebecca didn't look at Kevin's trophies, but sat and read a book next to Randall.  That's the kind of attention Kevin needed and didn't get and left him feeling ignored.

Again Kevin was not ignored he just didn't require the attention that the other two needed and if he wasn't so spoiled and selfish he would see that.

[izabella]

15 minutes ago, mommalib said:

Again Kevin was not ignored he just didn't require the attention that the other two needed and if he wasn't so spoiled and selfish he would see that.

I didn't say he was ignored.  I said he felt ignored when he saw Rebecca giving Randall so much of her attention and Jack giving Kate so much of his attention.  Just because he didn't appear to have problems, doesn't mean he didn't want a parent to give him one on one time like that.

However, I'll add that he was sometimes ignored even when he did need the attention, like the day at the pool when he couldn't swim and almost drowned.

Edited January 12, 2018 by izabella

[moonorchid]

Outside of the pool incident that could have turned very serious and prob sticks with a person, everything is so minor that on its own I’d be like, “cmon dude it’s not a big deal, it happens get over it” and go down the list of his blessings. But when those minor incidences happen over and over and they pile up and now they are being exemplified cause they keep happening, and it’s becomes a real thing. 

I don’t even really blame jack or Rebecca for the most part...maybe like 80% don’t blame them because the Love was there and they really did try their best.

Edited January 12, 2018 by moonorchid

[DebbieM4]

35 minutes ago, izabella said:

I think Kevin very much did require just as much attention as Kate and Randall.  That's why he's having issues now; he didn't get the attention he needed.

Yes.  ALL children need attention from their parents.  It's very clear that Randall and Kate got the bulk of it.  Good parents never assume that one is okay flying solo no matter how things might appear on the surface.  I'm not a Kevin fan at all, but I totally understand this aspect of his point of view.

[mommalib]

4 minutes ago, moonorchid said:

Outside of the pool incident that could have turned very serious and prob sticks with a person, everything is so minor that on its own I’d be like, “cmon dude it’s not a big deal, it happens get over it” and go down the list of his blessings. But when those minor incidences happen over and over and they pile up and now they are being exemplified cause they keep happening, and it’s becomes a real thing. 

I don’t even really blame jack or Rebecca for the most part...maybe like 80% don’t blame them because the Love was there and they really did try their best.

I understand  things piling up  after a while but I still think that Kevin really needs to grow and look outside of himself. Because like I said I doubt Kevin would have wanted to switch places with his siblings to get that attention.

[moonorchid]

2 minutes ago, mommalib said:

I understand  things piling up  after a while but I still think that Kevin really needs to grow and look outside of himself. Because like I said I doubt Kevin would have wanted to switch places with his siblings to get that attention.

I think he does too and I hope that therapy session is the start of it. It’s been festering in him and has hindered his own growth and happiness. Now that it’s out there and his mother acknowledges his pain and her part in it I hope growth is next,

[debraran]

4 hours ago, moonorchid said:

I think he does too and I hope that therapy session is the start of it. It’s been festering in him and has hindered his own growth and happiness. Now that it’s out there and his mother acknowledges his pain and her part in it I hope growth is next,

I thought it was sad when she was saying goodbye to Kevin that she had trouble thinking of things too, she hoped they had moments, she knew they did, and Kevin thought so too but how sad that it wasn't right up top like her memories of the other two.

I also liked that he said "My childhood wasn't so bad, I had a good childhood" and Rebecca said, "Not as good as I thought"  I've heard that so many times by parents, they thought they did a good job but perceptions from their kids was different. Other times, kids grow up poor, have great memories and parents say how they wish they could have done this or that, and the kids are like "we were fine".

Some is all personality, but in this case, it is odd that without illness taking up a lot of attention, they didn't do more individually with the kids.

[Scarlett45]

7 hours ago, memememe76 said:

Interesting point here. Kevin may not be able to articulate his privilege, but he feels it. He knows how Kate has suffered, and while not for him enough, he has seen enough of Randall's struggles.

While a what if Jack scenario could be played out, I wonder what would have happened if Kyle survived the birth but became severely disabled. The same scenario would probably play out, where Kevin feels left out.

Interesting you mention this- I belong to a Sib Group (adult sibling of someone with a disability) and HOLY MOLEY Kevin sounds just like some of my group members (Not all of course but many). I’d SWEAR Kevin was a Sib with his constant complaints of not getting enough attention growing up etc etc.  Of course the group is self selecting- many people that would get support from such a group have a need for a voice, recognition etc.  Others like me enjoy it for sharing resources and lifestyle issues only Sibs get. 

This tells me that 1. Human behavior tends to be the same and 2. Sib issues are family issues just amplified due to the extreme nature of the care the disabled member requires. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by Scarlett45

[justmythoughts]

What I see is a great show that hits so many nerves. 

I relate to Kevin, as the oldest in my family, I have never struggled with my weight. I was even too thin, in my italian grandmom eyes. At some point they even gave me homemade syrup to "eat more". So as far as Kate's weight problems, to me, Rebecca was the right position. But I will listen to all the people here that have been in Kate's shoes and I will really say: I can't fully understand. 

The same goes for Randall, as a white middle class (female in my case, but still more priviledged than him). Sure I can understand to a certain level, but I will never fully understand.  I feel for Kate and Randall, but only people in similar situation can really relate more.

So, as the oldest, thin, always a good student, I was never the primary source of concern for my parents. Maybe for the 3 years when I was the only child, but I don't remember those years... my middle sister was chubby her entire life, always the center of the attention, the most needed (out loud, she was always the one who cried and asked for attention). The youngest sister was a premature baby, always allowed to do whatever she wanted because she had to take medicine and shots for years, so the family thought that was pain enough in her life. 

I have great parents. I have a wonderful life, personal and professional... but I know the pride my oarents carry for me is the fact that I am independent, strong, that I don't need them financially ... and if I dare to complain that sometimes I wish I could be like my sisters and instead of stop buying something to balance the finances or to save money, I wish I could just ask them... it will seem petty and small in comparison to all I have. My parents were much more present and made my sisters' lives easier... but they love me and I know. 

But our neighbour's grass is always greener. The same goes for Kevin. He is a white, handsome, famous and rich priviledged man. Sure he has the phisycal tools to be happy. But he also has deep issues (and now we know - sorry Ellis, but you did a crappy job asking Rebecca about genetics because it is something far more modern than these kids teenage years, when their mother and father were facing addiction problems, that time it was a weakness only), genetic issues... and sometimes even with all the privileges what you need is family support. 

Someone has explained very well: privileges don't garantee happiness. They just mean an easy route. But it depends on you to make your own choices. For psychological reasons (and genetics as well) Kevin deals with problems resorting to addiction. Aa well as Kate with food and Randall with anxiety... but most people can't relate with Kevin because they only see the exterior privileged man and don't allow him to have weaknesses. Or think he should ve able to deal with his minor problems when compared to many others...

Well, I digress... anyways, great show! 

[GodsBeloved]

6 hours ago, moonorchid said:

Outside of the pool incident that could have turned very serious and prob sticks with a person, everything is so minor that on its own I’d be like, “cmon dude it’s not a big deal, it happens get over it” and go down the list of his blessings. But when those minor incidences happen over and over and they pile up and now they are being exemplified cause they keep happening, and it’s becomes a real thing. 

I don’t even really blame jack or Rebecca for the most part...maybe like 80% don’t blame them because the Love was there and they really did try their best.

I agree. And while it may be minor, even in the session Rebecca left out Kevin when talking about the kids not having their dad at important events.

[ShadowFacts]

8 hours ago, mommalib said:

It was just brought to mt attention that Kevin had a line to Randall in season 1 about having to compete with another black guy after he was replaced in the Manny. I hope that gets addressed so people can stop acting like it isn't a factor in Kevin's hostility to Randall.

Wasn't this the same episode where Kevin says he should have been the star in this family?  He had lots of rivalry with Randall that comes out as hostility when they were kids.  I think it has to be addressed (if I were a writer) since at the heart of the premise of the show is a black child adopted by a white family.

8 hours ago, DebbieM4 said:

(At the very least, his parents should have clued him in.  "We'll go to the cabin on Monday, and then you'll join us on Thursday.  We'll all have a great time together!".  But they didn't do that.  Instead, he was blindsided by being made to feel that he was arriving at a party that had already started days before without his knowledge - and without him.  This is his family - the people he's supposed to be able to rely on to not make him feel that way.)

I wasn't paying close attention, but wasn't it all very spur-of-the-moment when Jack sprung it on Rebecca, when a friend's cabin was offered?  It seemed to me it was another example of Jack's impulsivity.

Anyone else get a 'Home Alone' vibe when Kevin (another Kevin) said "this family sucks"? 

[Jax7917]

On 1/10/2018 at 1:55 PM, ChicksDigScars said:

nning. Selfish, immature, self-absorbed, given everything while growing up, yet it's still never enough. Out of the Big Three, who has had the most privilege in his life? The white male super jock who grew up to be a beef cake actor? The obese, self-conscious, bullied by kids in school, white female? Or is it the adopted black male, who is different from everyone in the family, and was sent to a different school than his siblings, albeit for a GOOD reason, but was just another thing that amplified how different he was than the rest of his family.  Yes, his parents seemed to worry less about Kevin,  which he uses as a way to play victim, but who had the easier time growing up? My guess is the white male jock turned pampered actor.  None of the Big Three are portrayed as growing up in a perfect situation. And their parents (especially Rebecca) are not portrayed as being perfect parents. Jack's faults are mentioned, but they're hidden behind the fact that he died tragically young, so, he's been canonized.

 

Just because he was a cute jock he can't have problems or feel upset about things? Not all  people fit into just one category. Sometimes the people you think have the least problems really have the most.

[Clanstarling]

14 hours ago, PRgal said:

@Clanstarling: I don't think Kevin's faking.  He DOES feel that he's ignored (which probably goes back to the pool incident, if not further) and after football (where he was talented and getting attention from coaches/scouts) ended, he turned to acting because that's a way he COULD get attention.  Who knows whether he would turn out the same way if the pool incident did not occur.  As many have brought up, Kevin's feeling of not being loved/getting the same kind of care and attention as the other two was VERY, VERY clear in therapy and we can't discount that.  Just because he has privileges that the other two siblings don't doesn't mean he can't have issues.  And dismissing the fact that he may have issues only hurts him (and others like him) more.  It only continues the stigmatization of mental health.  :( 

I wasn't clear about what I meant, sorry  - I don't think he's faking about his issues at all. It was in that initial scene, when he was all "namaste" that I thought he was faking.

[PRgal]

In some ways, I can relate to Kevin.  In 21st century speak, I have invisible "special needs" (epilepsy - controlled by medication) and was not that academically gifted compared to the rest of my family (every single one of my cousins was on the honour roll in middle and high school.  Me?  I was just "average").  Yet, I've been called an "overprivileged brat."  Not by family, but by observers (including people who don't know me well).  I think my family - especially older people - have IMPLIED that (my parents' generation grew up fairly modestly, but through education, because successful and was able to give their children a very comfortable upbringing), however).  It's hard when you really feel that you're not as good as other people, yet people dismiss your feelings and always tell you to look on the "bright side."  It's hard to see that bright side when you don't feel it.  And Kevin doesn't feel it.  We know it.  And I think anyone who thinks otherwise is watching another show, not This is Us. 

ETA:  To be more specific about the "overprivileged brat" thing:  Older people in my family (and others from my culture) constantly ask why people here suffer from depression.  They think it's a middle class invention because we have "too much time on our hands."  They didn't have anything to be "depressed" about back in the old days because, well, there were other worries (like putting food on the table).  So they say.  I somehow doubt that.  It's just that it's not something the culture openly recognizes.  

Edited January 12, 2018 by PRgal

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, izabella said:

He needed it, not because he was a problem child, but because he was a child.  Jack took Kate out for ice cream daily.  Did Jack do anything with Kevin daily?   Rebecca didn't look at Kevin's trophies, but sat and read a book next to Randall.  That's the kind of attention Kevin needed and didn't get and left him feeling ignored.

Though I think for the most part, the dynamics are mostly due to the difficulties of raising three kids of the same age at once, and though I related to Rebecca being a reader (books kept me sane when my kids were young), I did want her to raise her face up from that damn book to watch Kevin when he asked her to watch him. Reading time was never when my kids actually needed my attention.

3 hours ago, justmythoughts said:

What I see is a great show that hits so many nerves. 

Amen. We all see these through so many different perspectives (and many of us from both sides of the aisle, as it were). If we weren't relating to it, we wouldn't be discussing the issues so deeply.

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Though I think for the most part, the dynamics are mostly due to the difficulties of raising three kids of the same age at once, and though I related to Rebecca being a reader (books kept me sane when my kids were young), I did want her to raise her face up from that damn book to watch Kevin when he asked her to watch him. Reading time was never when my kids actually needed my attention.

 

That scene really bugged me.  I wanted to scream at Rebecca to put the book down and pay attention to Kevin.  She hasn't seen him in at least a week if not longer, has spent the last few days with Randall, and she cannot tear her eyes away from her book.  Now, I love reading, but pay attention to your kid.  Kevin was so proud of himself and what he learned at camp, give him some attention.  Jack is no better either.  He is only playing football with Kevin to get Kate to exercise. 

[Pallas]

17 hours ago, izabella said:

A few people in previous posts have mentioned what Rebecca said about Randall being easier because he didn't recoil at her touch and wasn't surly for no reason.  I think both of those points have been assumed here to refer to Kevin, but I think the "surly for no reason" child she was referring to was Kate.

I think you're right and I think it's both: both the children Rebecca bore recoiled at her touch and were surly for no reason. Because they are less like Rebecca than Randall is, and, because they are more like Rebecca than Randall is. And because they are more like each other than they will ever be like anyone else.

[ShadowFacts]

22 minutes ago, PRgal said:

It's hard when you really feel that you're not as good as other people, yet people dismiss your feelings and always tell you to look on the "bright side."  It's hard to see that bright side when you don't feel it.  And Kevin doesn't feel it.  We know it.  And I think anyone who thinks otherwise is watching another show, not This is Us. 

I haven't espoused the view that Kevin doesn't feel the bright side.  His insecurities were on display from the beginning.  The first episode introduced us to the siblings on the occasion of their 37th (?) birthday, when all were wrestling with their inner struggles.  Randall trying to find his birth father, Kate taking small steps toward dealing with her health, and Kevin publicly blowing up his career (sort of) because he could no longer be 'The Manny'.  They've all taken steps forward and backward since then, with Randall meeting, connecting with, and losing William, and Kate meeting Toby who loves her unconditionally the way Jack did.  Now we get to see Kevin articulate his fifth-wheel feelings, and perhaps he goes forward more positively with this recognition spoken to his family.  I think his situation is pinging heavily with lots of people here because we can all remember feelings of being dismissed in some way, it's pretty universal.  He has to decide what to do from now on, because jumping in the time machine and getting more parental attention is not an option. 

1 minute ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

That scene really bugged me.  I wanted to scream at Rebecca to put the book down and pay attention to Kevin.  She hasn't seen him in at least a week if not longer, has spent the last few days with Randall, and she cannot tear her eyes away from her book.  Now, I love reading, but pay attention to your kid.  Kevin was so proud of himself and what he learned at camp, give him some attention.  Jack is no better either.  He is only playing football with Kevin to get Kate to exercise. 

Don't get me started on how often I see parents staring into their phone with their baby/toddler/young child right in front of them.  What a waste.

[Clanstarling]

7 minutes ago, Pallas said:

I think you're right and I think it's both: both the children Rebecca bore recoiled at her touch and were surly for no reason. Because they are less like Rebecca than Randall is, and, because they are more like Rebecca than Randall is. And because they are more like each other than they will ever be like anyone else.

The twins were born prematurely, right? I read a long time ago that premature children often don't like being touched as they grow older. My oldest was premature and she has never liked being held, as soon as she could move on her own, she was all "don't touch me" (non verbally, of course). She'll endure a hug, but she does not care for it. I, too, was premature and have some of the same problem - only it's more with people outside my inner circle. I don't get mani pedis or massages for that reason. So maybe this is the issue with the twins (though frankly, that's going a little deeper than I think the writers are going)

Edited January 12, 2018 by Clanstarling

[nexxie]

12 hours ago, mommalib said:

Like she said he was and is the easiest to love. He never pushed her away or abandoned her or blamed her for any of his problems. And unlike Kevin and Kate, Randall was always respectful to her and I think they share common interest. With Kevin it was always a push and pull not mention he was kind of ass even as a kid. And Kate always made her the villain and Jack the hero.

A mother-child heart relationship usually develops much earlier than the years Kevin and Kate were prickly - likely that prickliness grew out of their unmet needs. Makes me wonder what all goes on when a mother raises three babies at once - hard enough to meet all the needs of one tiny human.

[Blakeston]

At the end of the day, I don't think Kevin's biggest issue was that his siblings got more attention than him. It was that Rebecca made zero effort to hide that she was at her happiest when she was with Randall, and that Jack made zero effort to hide that he was at his happiest when he was with Kate.

They wore their preferences on their sleeves.  There's no excuse for Rebecca not bothering to look up from her book when Kevin was showing his parents what he learned at football camp. That can't be explained away with, "Randall had bigger problems than you."

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

The twins were born prematurely, right? I read a long time ago that premature children often don't like being touched as they grow older. My oldest was premature and she has never liked being held, as soon as she could move on her own, she was all "don't touch me" (non verbally, of course). She'll endure a hug, but she does not care for it. I, too, was premature and have some of the same problem - only it's more with people outside my inner circle. I don't get mani pedis or massages for that reason. So maybe this is the issue with the twins (though frankly, that's going a little deeper than I think the writers are going)

Were they?  They weren't shown to be premature - no incubators, for example (and they existed.  I know a set of multiples born around the same time and they were in the hospital for at a couple of months).  I assumed that they JUST made the full term mark - 37 weeks. 

[Blakeston]

50 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Were they?  They weren't shown to be premature - no incubators, for example (and they existed.  I know a set of multiples born around the same time and they were in the hospital for at a couple of months).  I assumed that they JUST made the full term mark - 37 weeks. 

They were conceived on January 20, 1980 (Super Bowl Sunday), and born on August 30, a little over 7 months later.

[moonorchid]

57 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

At the end of the day, I don't think Kevin's biggest issue was that his siblings got more attention than him. It was that Rebecca made zero effort to hide that she was at her happiest when she was with Randall, and that Jack made zero effort to hide that he was at his happiest when he was with Kate.

They wore their preferences on their sleeves.  There's no excuse for Rebecca not bothering to look up from her book when Kevin was showing his parents what he learned at football camp. That can't be explained away with, "Randall had bigger problems than you."

That’s a really good point. I don’t think there’s any contempt or mailice from there in their actions, but they definitely gravitated towards specific kids and nurtured those relationships and Kevin was the outsider.

[Clanstarling]

58 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Were they?  They weren't shown to be premature - no incubators, for example (and they existed.  I know a set of multiples born around the same time and they were in the hospital for at a couple of months).  I assumed that they JUST made the full term mark - 37 weeks. 

I recall them being quite distressed about the timing of the labor. Incubators are not always used, depending on just how premature. My kids were both premature (six to four weeks respectively), but were not in incubators. 

[Runningwild]

Aren’t most multiples premature?

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Runningwild said:

Aren’t most multiples premature?

Yes, average for triplets is 34 weeks.  Many doctors won't let triplets go past 36 weeks.

[JudyObscure]

I keep seeing the therapist blamed for expecting Rebecca to have known about addiction running in families.  This isn't new knowledge. Two widely seen movies, which were best selling books first, "The Lost Weekend," in 1945, and "Days of Wine and Roses," in 1962, explain  and illustrate most aspects of alcoholism.  They make clear that addiction is not just a weakness but a disease and that certain people are more likely to become addicted based on genetics and personality types.  I remember the doctor in, "Days of Wine and Roses," telling the woman that her obsession with chocolate had been a warning sign.  Fetal Alcohol Syndrome was first described  in the United States in 1973 and widely discussed in all the women's magazines.  Rebecca, the reader, would have known and Jack would have heard  it discussed at his AA meetings.  The kids should have been warned.

[ShadowFacts]

34 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I keep seeing the therapist blamed for expecting Rebecca to have known about addiction running in families.  This isn't new knowledge. Two widely seen movies, which were best selling books first, "The Lost Weekend," in 1945, and "Days of Wine and Roses," in 1962, explain  and illustrate most aspects of alcoholism.  They make clear that addiction is not just a weakness but a disease and that certain people are more likely to become addicted based on genetics and personality types.  I remember the doctor in, "Days of Wine and Roses," telling the woman that her obsession with chocolate had been a warning sign.  Fetal Alcohol Syndrome was first described  in the United States in 1973 and widely discussed in all the women's magazines.  Rebecca, the reader, would have known and Jack would have heard  it discussed at his AA meetings.  The kids should have been warned.

I think the therapist was on solid ground bringing it up, and I think Rebecca's not wanting it discussed is part of her generalized painting of Jack as nearly perfect. That, and not wanting to cause more pain to her kids who suffered a terrible loss.

Randall, having two biological parents who were addicts, needs to be more open about it with his kids than Rebecca was with hers.  It's not going to necessarily prevent anything, but knowledge is power. 

[mommalib]

3 hours ago, moonorchid said:

That’s a really good point. I don’t think there’s any contempt or mailice from there in their actions, but they definitely gravitated towards specific kids and nurtured those relationships and Kevin was the outsider.

Kevin was the outsider form his own perspective because of the extra attention that he felt he didn't get. The real fish out of water was Randall for obvious reasons, and the way Kevin treated him didn't make things any better.

[Ohiopirate02]

35 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think the therapist was on solid ground bringing it up, and I think Rebecca's not wanting it discussed is part of her generalized painting of Jack as nearly perfect. That, and not wanting to cause more pain to her kids who suffered a terrible loss.

Randall, having two biological parents who were addicts, needs to be more open about it with his kids than Rebecca was with hers.  It's not going to necessarily prevent anything, but knowledge is power. 

I'm actually surprised that Randall never picked up on Jack's drinking.  I could see Kate blocking it out because she placed Jack on such a high pedestal, but teenage Randall should have seen something.  With the separation of Jack and Rebecca, I would think that Randall would notice that something was wrong with the marriage and Jack would have some responsibility in it. 

[moonorchid]

6 minutes ago, mommalib said:

Kevin was the outsider form his own perspective because of the extra attention that he felt he didn't get. The real fish out of water was Randall for obvious reasons, and the way Kevin treated him didn't make things any better.

But Kevin was an outsider not just from his own perspective but from what the show is telling us and even Rebecca is acknowledging it. No one is disputing that Randall was a fish out of water in his environment but in his house he was deeply included and overly worried about by Rebecca for the exact reasons you state.