S02.E10: Number Three

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I don't know about this.  His issues are his -- the addiction won't be addressed until he himself admits it and seeks treatment.  He can't be rescued.  Kate's long-standing food addiction hasn't been helped by concern.  There's no swooping in and making people better.  Family support, yes.  I don't think Randall is/has been uncaring.  He let his brother live in his house for an extended period of time when he was floundering after quitting his sitcom. 

Very true. I think Kevin needs to be getting treatment for himself because he wants it, first and farmost. The person that needs to be on board is Kevin himself. But I also believe that he truly cannot do it just by himself. He definitely needs his family's support, so in that sense, I don't think he can truly get clean and sober for very long without his family by his side. He's already admitted that he needs help, even if he hasn't outright told anyone yet. He's actually pretty self aware of his issue but can't seem to climb out of the hole he dug himself in. He really seems to hate himself, which is the biggest issue. They can get him clean and sober all they want, but that won't deal with the underlying problem that he does have. Randall hasn't been uncaring at all; he's been nice with Kevin, even when Kevin treated him horribly most of his life. But I also think that he hasn't seen that Kevin has his own problems that he's been burying, which isn't his fault, but it just adds to Kevin's depression. 

And with Tess being in the car when Kevin was arrested, it might keep their already fragile relationship fractured more. Kevin's been the one at fault for this fractured relationship, but it'll be interesting to see if Randall can find a way to forgive his brother for what happened and help him heal. I think Randall will be rightfully pissed at Kevin's involvement in almost endangering his daughter, but I hope he can also recognize that this wasn't Kevin's fault for once and he would never intentionally harm Tess. What Kevin does need is help and support, so he can get better and be able to start mending those fractured relationships that Kevin damaged himself. 

[kili]

Quote

 His issues are his -- the addiction won't be addressed until he himself admits it and seeks treatment. 

During his episode, Kevin did admit he had a problem (during his breakdown on the lawn). He was coming to ask Randall to help him, but saw that Randall had his own issues so he left. He left not because he doesn't want help, but he doesn't feels less deserving of help than his siblings and their issues.

The problem Kate and Kevin have is that they both hate themselves. Their behaviour is self-destructive. Until Kate learns to forgive herself for killing her Dad, her weight is going to be a struggle. She needs to move on from being 17.

Kevin hates himself. We saw it in the dream sequence of his future. He broke up with Sophie because he thinks he will ruin the life of Sophie and their potential children. We saw it in the way he slagged himself at the awards ceremony. Until he feels he is worth saving, he's probably going to keep falling back into self-destructive behaviour. 

Kevin wants help, he's just not sure who to ask for help. After this last incidence, his family will probably be yelling at him and he'll feel even less deserving. That's why suicide or an overdose are likely his next step. Maybe Miguel will reach out.

[Thog]

I really hope that the whole "watching the wrong kid" was a reference to Randall focusing on Deja while Tess was struggling. Tess and Annie have been used as the perfect cute girls to give Randall a family, but they haven't been fleshed out and I really want to know more about them. As others have mentioned, Tess has been through a LOT and nobody is paying attention to her. It would be nice for the storyline to start focusing on the next generation, rather than rehashing storylines as they seem in danger of doing. I really felt for her.

Also, though I'm not Kate's biggest fan I have to say that it would have seriously sucked to go through life being known as "number 2." Number 3 may feel like the lowest priority, but at least it doesn't have toilet humor potential.

YES to whoever said maybe Kate and Toby adopt that kid. Was it made clear what state he's in? They really don't need to be trying for another biological child given her health issues, and Randall and Beth really don't need to be fostering another child given their family situation. It would be just like the writers to throw in a twist like that. 

[Amethyst]

3 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

The Randall/Beth foster parent storyline bugs me because they clearly seem more excited to adopt than to foster. So why not just do that? When they mentioned getting a lawyer involved to block the parental reunion I just shook my head.

I’ve been wondering the same thing.  Especially if their main goal is to keep the child with them permanently.  Why aren’t they looking at adoption?  

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, Amethyst said:

I’ve been wondering the same thing.  Especially if their main goal is to keep the child with them permanently.  Why aren’t they looking at adoption?  

Actually, they're not really on the same page. Randall wanted to adopt and his plan was never to foster. It was Beth who was insistent that they foster, because of her belief of helping kids who needed it. Either way, I actually don't think Randall's plan to adopt was completely thought out, because I still believe it's his way of dealing with William's death, of holding on to something that he had lost; basically, his initial reason for even adopting was to adopt a boy to complete this next generation of what happened to him as a baby. However, what neither accounted for was truly seeing how their actual kids would feel. It was a different story with Kate and Kevin, because they were newborns when Randall was adopted. But even then, we've seen that Kevin had some issues with having an adopted brother (I think partly because of how other kids most likely gossiped and judged his family, but also because Randall was treated differently by Jack and Rebecca). But Tess and Annie are old enough to be able to have a say. I know that they eventually told Tess/Annie and they seemed fine with it, but what Randall hasn't figured out is that he IS repeating the cycle that Rebecca, in particular, started, where the treatment of the biological kids is different from the adopted/foster kid. The new kid coming into their home needs the help, no doubt about it, but so do the biological kids, especially ones who are older and have problems of their own. 

Which is why I'm kind of hoping that this season ends with Randall realizing that he didn't go into the adoption/foster route with the purest of intentions and that it may not be the right move unless he deals with Tess and Annie's feelings first. I think Randall got too overly excited and it blinded him to his own children. They may say the words "It's fine" but he hasn't seen what they're saying silently. And with Tess jumping in her uncle's car just to get away from her family and how she "hates" it at home (she obviously doesn't truly hate it, but she's going through a lot which makes her feel like she hates it), who knows when Randall and Beth will really see that issue. They're going to be too pissed at Kevin to really hear what Tess is saying, and I'm not sure she'll tell them right off the bat how she feels. Which...is actually interesting, because we're now seeing a little taste of Kevin in Tess. I totally see why she jumped in his car and what they were going for there. 

[Baltimore Betty]

I have questions about the foster situation, Randall and family live in Pennsylvania, the foster child's mother said she lived in Newark, that's Delaware, do they place children in different states?  My other question is with Randall's history of mental breakdowns how did they get ok'd for being foster parents?

[Neurochick]

18 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

A throwaway "you look horrible" or whatever by Randall to Kevin isn't the same as recognizing that something is really wrong and expressing concern. Nobody has really asked Kevin what's wrong or even "are you okay?" Looks like that pool near-drowning nobody noticed has been a theme.

I think this has been a theme.

I don't understand the confusion about Kevin and which car he was driving.  He drove to Randall's home and I assume he drove that same car when Tess was in the car.

Tess was unhappy because she liked Deja and Deja was gone.

Back to Kevin.  Everybody always assumed Kevin was okay.  He was the oldest, he didn't have a weight issue, he was the same race as his parents, he didn't act out at home, didn't get involved in drugs or gangs or anything like that.  There was always something more "important" going on for anybody to be concerned about Kevin's issues.

When Kevin arrived at Randall's home, Deja had just been taken away and Rebecca had just called Randall to tell him about Kate losing the baby.  I liked how the show framed these three episodes, seeing each from a different person's POV.  Randall, Rebecca and Kate aren't mean to Kevin; it's just that their issues are more dramatic that Kevin's, EXCEPT when Kevin had the knee injury.  I wonder how teen Kevin reacted to being the center of attention.  Maybe he didn't like it.

I don't get "smug" Randall at all.  I mean he just didn't want Deja to be a statistic, and I don't care hoe many "exceptions" to the rule there are, she has a better chance of becoming a statistic living with her mother, than she does living with Randall and Beth.  I know this is an unpopular opinion but...just saying.

I think Deja lived in Newark, NJ, not Delaware.  As for Randall's breakdowns, has he ever been hospitalized for them?  If not, then, no history.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Neurochick

[Lady Calypso]

Just now, Baltimore Betty said:

I have questions about the foster situation, Randall and family live in Pennsylvania, the foster child's mother said she lived in Newark, that's Delaware, do they place children in different states?  My other question is with Randall's history of mental breakdowns how did they get ok'd for being foster parents?

Randall and his family live in New Jersey. The Pearson family used to live in Pennsylvania, and Rebecca/Miguel have been said to still live in Pittsburgh. Deja's mom said they live in Newark, but I believe it's Newark, New Jersey, not Newark, Delaware. I noted the New Jersey license plate that her mom was driving in. 

Since Randall has technically only had two official mental breakdowns, I assume they had to go through some psych evals to determine that he's in the right state of mind to adopt. But the show basically fast forwarded through this entire process to get to the fostering storyline. I'd imagine it would take longer than a couple of weeks to get accepted as a foster parent.

[Baltimore Betty]

2 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Randall and his family live in New Jersey. The Pearson family used to live in Pennsylvania, and Rebecca/Miguel have been said to still live in Pittsburgh. Deja's mom said they live in Newark, but I believe it's Newark, New Jersey, not Newark, Delaware. I noted the New Jersey license plate that her mom was driving in. 

Since Randall has technically only had two official mental breakdowns, I assume they had to go through some psych evals to determine that he's in the right state of mind to adopt. But the show basically fast forwarded through this entire process to get to the fostering storyline. I'd imagine it would take longer than a couple of weeks to get accepted as a foster parent.

Head slap...Newark NJ! 

[ShadowFacts]

3 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Randall and his family live in New Jersey. The Pearson family used to live in Pennsylvania, and Rebecca/Miguel have been said to still live in Pittsburgh. Deja's mom said they live in Newark, but I believe it's Newark, New Jersey, not Newark, Delaware. I noted the New Jersey license plate that her mom was driving in. 

I think Rebecca and Miguel live nearer to Randall than Pittsburgh, based on the Christmas scenes last year where she and Kate were going from Kate's medical appointment back to Rebecca and Miguel's before heading to Randall's Christmas Eve gathering.  

[Lady Calypso]

7 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I don't understand the confusion about Kevin and which car he was driving.  He drove to Randall's home and I assume he drove that same car when Tess was in the car.

I think it was because the information shown in Number One doesn't match up with what we've been shown here. In Kevin's episode, he was taking an Uber to get to his alumni event. He clearly was not driving, and the last scene of him before getting to Randall's was sometime in the middle of the night. I think the confusion lies in what time Kevin actually got to Randall's place, coupled with the fact that he was still drunk enough to get arrested and the drive being between five and six hours. If it was sometime in the morning that Kevin got to New Jersey, then Kevin's excuse about being exhausted because he was driving all night would be mostly true, but then rental car companies are usually closed, so when would he have been able to rent the car? The better explanation would be that it was actually the afternoon when Kevin arrived in New Jersey and he ended up staying at a hotel that he presumably paid for before arriving in Pittsburgh and then leaving early in the morning to get to New Jersey. However, it also doesn't match up because Randall, I believe, even stated that it was the morning.

However, this information isn't made known at all, so that's where the confusion and questions are coming from. I do assume the exhaustion from driving all night excuse is bullshit, but also, did he really stay drunk for seven+ hours, long enough to be arrested for a DUI? He only had one drink before he left, which wouldn't have been enough to get pulled over for a DUI, even when speeding. Or is it because he was arrested regardless of his blood alcohol level because he had a minor in the car?

The more I think about it, the more questions I have.

[laurakaye]

19 hours ago, kili said:

I recall a scene where we are shown Kevin driving a car as he approaches Randall's house. He calls to say that he is coming, but that is when Dejja is leaving so Randall doesn't have much time to talk. It must be Kevin's rental car. It's unrealistic for him to have snuck up to Randall's house, stolen his car, phone Randall and then drove back to the house, had a drink and then drove off with his car again.

Exactly this.  I respect that many viewers don't have an issue with the car thing, but for those of us that do, it's just another inconsistency in a show full of them.  It gets old trying to figure out how these people move around, get from place to place, and for me it takes me right out of the story.  I know he had a driver while in Pittsburgh, but I can't remember if we saw him get dropped off in front of Randall's house or if we just saw him show up at the door.

The writers really like to play fast and loose with logistics in favor of making sure we feel the feels.

EDIT: Lady Calypso right above my post stated it much better.

 

11 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Nice spare bedroom there.  Why was William taking the girl's bedroom?  Or did they cover that already by saying Beth gave up her office for Deja?  

I really need to know how many bedrooms are in this big fancy house.

 

3 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

I really hope this was the last time we have to hear the blown fuse (Good job, Babe!), but that house fire isn't going to start itself.

*smacks self upside the head*...I can't believe I missed this anvil.

Edited November 30, 2017 by laurakaye

[Neurochick]

8 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

It gets old trying to figure out how these people move around, get from place to place, and for me it takes me right out of the story.

For me, I don't try to figure it out, I'm paying attention to the story, but yes, there are inconsistencies with time lines.  I assumed in this case, the stories are told form the POV of each of the "big three."   I guess it depends on what a person focuses on.  What I didn't like about Deja's mom was when she complained that Deja's hair was short, I rolled my eyes, because too many black women think that having long hair is better than short (especially natural) hair, but see, that's what I focused on.

Kevin got to Randall's home after he couldn't get the keychain from the lady he slept with and then left?

I thought Kevin was drinking when he was in Randall's house.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Neurochick

[Lady Calypso]

8 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

I really need to know how many bedrooms are in this big fancy house.

I think it's a four bedroom house. Tess and Annie have their own rooms, then the spare bedroom, and then Randall/Beth's master bedroom. Kevin had to sleep in the basement when he stayed over, and I think they had an additional room that could have been another bedroom, but it was converted into an office. Which, I guess for someone like Randall, who worked in a high paid job, a four/five bedroom house is probably common. 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think it's a four bedroom house. Tess and Annie have their own rooms, then the spare bedroom, and then Randall/Beth's master bedroom. Kevin had to sleep in the basement when he stayed over, and I think they had an additional room that could have been another bedroom, but it was converted into an office. Which, I guess for someone like Randall, who worked in a high paid job, a four/five bedroom house is probably common. 

When William stayed there, he displaced one of the girls and slept in her room.  So it suggested they had three bedrooms total.  Which we all balked at.  Though I guess Beth's office was the fourth.  

37 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think it was because the information shown in Number One doesn't match up with what we've been shown here. In Kevin's episode, he was taking an Uber to get to his alumni event. He clearly was not driving, and the last scene of him before getting to Randall's was sometime in the middle of the night. I think the confusion lies in what time Kevin actually got to Randall's place, coupled with the fact that he was still drunk enough to get arrested and the drive being between five and six hours. If it was sometime in the morning that Kevin got to New Jersey, then Kevin's excuse about being exhausted because he was driving all night would be mostly true, but then rental car companies are usually closed, so when would he have been able to rent the car? The better explanation would be that it was actually the afternoon when Kevin arrived in New Jersey and he ended up staying at a hotel that he presumably paid for before arriving in Pittsburgh and then leaving early in the morning to get to New Jersey. However, it also doesn't match up because Randall, I believe, even stated that it was the morning.

However, this information isn't made known at all, so that's where the confusion and questions are coming from. I do assume the exhaustion from driving all night excuse is bullshit, but also, did he really stay drunk for seven+ hours, long enough to be arrested for a DUI? He only had one drink before he left, which wouldn't have been enough to get pulled over for a DUI, even when speeding. Or is it because he was arrested regardless of his blood alcohol level because he had a minor in the car?

The more I think about it, the more questions I have.

I think it's reasonable he Ubered around Pitt then rented a car at any hour of the night to go to Randall's.  He could've drank on the drive, or his "DUI" might be pill-influenced.  The fact that he poured vodka into OJ at Randall's and Randall commented on the earliness made me think it was morning and he'd driven through the night.  

Edited November 30, 2017 by Guest

[Runningwild]

Does Kevin really owe Randall an apology? Is it his fault Tess snuck into his car? Obviously drinking and driving is horrible and endangers lives, but Kevin didn’t know Tess was with him.

 

Where I live, having a child in the car makes the charges enhanced and the penalties stiffer. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Runningwild

[topanga]

43 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Head slap...Newark NJ! 

Hee. Don’t feel bad. I movedto Delaware a few years ago, and ‘Newark’ is now always pronounced New-ARK in my head. 

 

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Very true. I think Kevin needs to be getting treatment for himself because he wants it, first and farmost. The person that needs to be on board is Kevin himself. But I also believe that he truly cannot do it just by himself. He definitely needs his family's support, so in that sense, I don't think he can truly get clean and sober for very long without his family by his side. He's already admitted that he needs help, even if he hasn't outright told anyone yet. He's actually pretty self aware of his issue but can't seem to climb out of the hole he dug himself in. He really seems to hate himself, which is the biggest issue. They can get him clean and sober all they want, but that won't deal with the underlying problem that he does have. Randall hasn't been uncaring at all; he's been nice with Kevin, even when Kevin treated him horribly most of his life. But I also think that he hasn't seen that Kevin has his own problems that he's been burying, which isn't his fault, but it just adds to Kevin's depression. 

I agree that Kevin needs to know that someone sees him cares. Yes, he’s a grown man, but he’s a grown man with a serious addiction. I think he know he has a problem, but it isn’t quite real to him yet because he hasn’t been able talk to anyone about it.

And I wish Randall took the time to wonder why Kevin was drinking vodka in the morning. And had a scruffy (though sexy as hell) beard. I know Randall had a lot going on with Deja and learning about Kate’s miscarriage. But Kevin lived with him for a year and never drank like this. And Jack was an alcoholic—Randall has to know that there’s a genetic component to the disease. 

Or I wish there would have been a scene with Beth being snarky with Kevin then realizing there was something really wrong with him. 

[kili]

Quote

He could've drank on the drive, or his "DUI" might be pill-influenced.

They better not go there because then I'm going to have to wonder how Kevin got the pills. Just a few hours ago he was forging prescriptions. Drunk and strung out he rented a car and found out where to get drugs in a strange city before driving to his brothers for help.

I suppose that there is a slim chance that he managed to mine Randall's bathroom for drugs. But Beth doesn't seem the sort to keep William's pain killers in the house after he died. There were 2 small kids and a foster kid in the house. Even if you completely trust all three, you have to worry about friends coming over.

Kevin was drunk. I think that's simple enough. He's in a heap of trouble now. Tess should be in her own trouble for running off and sneaking into people's cars. The law won't see it that way (he'll be blamed for having a minor in the car), but Randall and Beth should. Randall probably won't (he's judgmental). Beth might (she's less black-and-white).

My hopes are pinned on Miguel. The producers keep telling us we will like him and here is a place for him to shine.

[Blakeston]

23 minutes ago, Runningwild said:

Does Kevin really owe Randall an apology? Is it his fault Tess snuck into his car? Obviously drinking and driving is horrible and endangers lives, but Kevin didn’t know Tess was with him.

 

Where I live, having a child in the car makes the charges enhanced and the penalties stiffer. 

If I were Kevin, I'd definitely apologize for doing something stupid and reckless that endangered their daughter's life, regardless of whether I had reason to know whether she was in the car. That's the thing with impaired driving - you never know whose life you might end up affecting.

Randall and Beth owe him an apology, too, though. Their daughter shouldn't have stowed away with him. And what she did - popping up out of the back seat and startling a driver who thought they were alone - is incredibly dangerous.

I can imagine a storyline where Kevin initially doesn't tell Randall and Beth about Tess stowing away, because he doesn't want to get her in trouble with her parents (and because, as a Pearson man, he has a martyr complex.) Or maybe because Tess makes him promise not to tell. Or because he doesn't want her to have to deal with any public scrutiny that would result from him revealing to the authorities what she did. I don't think the writers will actually go there, though. Or at least I hope they don't. That would probably be truly awful writing.

Re: the house - I seem to recall William sharing a bedroom with at least one of the girls. Maybe that was just a one-time thing, or at least just an occasional thing, because someone had trouble sleeping? I don't remember.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Blakeston

[Phoebe70]

After a boring season, finally this episode redeems the show (in my eyes, at least). 

I could see how Randall and Beth thought it best to give up Deja, but just because he drives by the mom's apartment and sees clothes that she bought, and she has food in the fridge....how does that make her a fit mother?  She has a bad history and was only let out of jail because she cooperated.  And how the heck does Deja's mom know where Randall lives?  Isn't all of that supposed to be confidential info?  Plus, normally the bio parents wouldn't drive to the foster parents' house to pick up the child, it would take place at the social worker's office.  Seemed like a huge breach, but I suppose I am over-analyzing it.

I loved the scenes with Jack and teenage Randall.  And always William.  I could actually do without Kevin, period.   

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I don't get "smug" Randall at all.  I mean he just didn't want Deja to be a statistic, and I don't care hoe many "exceptions" to the rule there are, she has a better chance of becoming a statistic living with her mother, than she does living with Randall and Beth.  I know this is an unpopular opinion but...just saying.

I don’t think it’s an unpopular opinion to think Randall and Beth could have given Deja more advantages than her mother could. I agree with that completely. But parents shouldn’t have their parental rights terminated because a well-off family wants their kid. That’s not how the system works, nor should it be. 

I don’t think Randall was smug for thinking they could provide more opportunities for Deja. They could! For me what was smug was his belief that he was entitled to someone else’s child. It was also smug to act like he knows more about the child welfare system than social workers and courts. Randall wanted to keep Deja by having her mother arrested for trespassing. Really? He thinks the state should terminate parental rights...for trespassing?

It’s healthier for kids to be raised by parents who aren’t alcoholics. Does that mean Jack should have lost his kids? Does Randall think he and his siblings should have been taken out of their home and sent to foster care?

Edited November 30, 2017 by Jeddah

[Neurochick]

1 minute ago, Jeddah said:

It’s healthier for kids to be raised by parents who aren’t alcoholics. Does that mean Jack and Rebecca should have lost their kids? Does Randall think he and his siblings should have been taken out of their home and sent to foster care?

True, but only Jack was the alcoholic.  Deja seemed more like the mother, than her mother.  Also, just because someone gives birth, doesn't make them an automatic mother, biologically, yes but I've seen plenty of adults fucked up by their bio parents for me to feel that "well, biology" trumps everything.  

[possibilities]

13 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Nice spare bedroom there.  Why was William taking the girl's bedroom?  Or did they cover that already by saying Beth gave up her office for Deja?  

My understanding is that before William, each girl had her own room. When he moved in, the girls started sharing a room. So now that William is gone, they are using that room for the foster child, whoever that may be at any given time.

There is also known to be an office, which was Beth's office in the past and I don't think we know what it's being used for right now. And there is a basement, which is where Kevin stayed when he was living with them for a while.

So we know for sure they have the bedroom the parents share, the bedroom Tess and Annie share, the bedroom that William used which Deja then used after William was gone, and another room which at least in the past was Beth's office (and still might be). Plus the basement, which looked pretty nice when we saw it before.

It just occurs to me that Kevin slept in the basement as a teenager, too. So him using Beth's and Randall's basement when he stays with them is probably helping him to feel triggered about his childhood issues, as well.

[NUguy514]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I don't know about this.  His issues are his -- the addiction won't be addressed until he himself admits it and seeks treatment.  He can't be rescued.  Kate's long-standing food addiction hasn't been helped by concern.  There's no swooping in and making people better.  Family support, yes.  I don't think Randall is/has been uncaring.  He let his brother live in his house for an extended period of time when he was floundering after quitting his sitcom.  As for diagnosing and forcing him into treatment, that is not on him.

Well, Kevin was about to tell him and likely ask for help when Randall made a gigantic assumption and interrupted his brother.  There is a big difference between "I need to tell you something." and "Did you hear?"  The former is logically followed by a confession about yourself that the person to whom you're speaking doesn't know, while the latter is logically followed by news of some third party.  Kevin said the former to Randall, and Randall (and by "Randall," I mean "the writers") responded as if Kevin had asked the latter; as I've said, it's a TV writers' convention I just loathe because it's a such an unrealistic way for characters not to communicate with each other.

Also, his issues actually aren't just his; the addiction specifically is his issue, although it affects others, but the underlying issues that drove the addiction are not just his (I could say the same about Kate and her food addiction).  All of the Pearsons have been affected by growing up/living in an alcoholic household.  Something that could actually help them all would be Al-Anon; I'm mildly surprised Rebecca didn't go herself when Jack initially started AA since that seems like something she'd be open to.  Maybe she did, though, and we just haven't seen it yet.  It's a huge misconception about addiction that the addict is the only one who has issues; those closest to him/her almost always also have issues that need attention, too, but those issues are often ignored or suppressed in trying to manage and control the actively using addict.

I think Deja's mom wouldn't have been quite so bellicose with Beth and Randall if Randall hadn't been such a gigantic, threatening asshole to her when he visited her in jail.

[ShadowFacts]

5 minutes ago, NUguy514 said:

Well, Kevin was about to tell him and likely ask for help when Randall made a gigantic assumption and interrupted his brother.  There is a big difference between "I need to tell you something." and "Did you hear?"  The former is logically followed by a confession about yourself that the person to whom you're speaking doesn't know, while the latter is logically followed by news of some third party.  Kevin said the former to Randall, and Randall (and by "Randall," I mean "the writers") responded as if Kevin had asked the latter; as I've said, it's a TV writers' convention I just loathe because it's a such an unrealistic way for characters not to communicate with each other.

Also, his issues actually aren't just his; the addiction specifically is his issue, although it affects others, but the underlying issues that drove the addiction are not just his (I could say the same about Kate and her food addiction).  All of the Pearsons have been affected by growing up/living in an alcoholic household.  Something that could actually help them all would be Al-Anon; I'm mildly surprised Rebecca didn't go herself when Jack initially started AA since that seems like something she'd be open to.  Maybe she did, though, and we just haven't seen it yet.  It's a huge misconception about addiction that the addict is the only one who has issues; those closest to him/her almost always also have issues that need attention, too, but those issues are often ignored or suppressed in trying to manage and control the actively using addict.

I think Deja's mom wouldn't have been quite so bellicose with Beth and Randall if Randall hadn't been such a gigantic, threatening asshole to her when he visited her in jail.

I agree that of course his issues are deep-rooted, long-standing and involve the family.  But my point is/was that only Kevin is going to be able to help Kevin.  Yes, professionals, family support, etc. are all good and important, but he is in charge of his problems and progress or lack thereof.  I think that is one of the tenets of Al-Anon -- work on yourself, you don't control anyone else.   Allow the addict to face the natural consequences of their behavior. That's why I don't see Miguel or anybody else 'saving' him, it just doesn't work that way. 

In real life when a celebrity gets busted like this, the usual next step is 'mea culpa, I'm entering treatment'.  We don't see Kevin interacting with an agent anymore; maybe Ron Howard will step in and release a statement since Kevin has been shooting scenes for his movie.  Half kidding.  Anyway, I think some treatment is in Kevin's near future if there's to be any realism.  Big if. 

41 minutes ago, Phoebe70 said:

And how the heck does Deja's mom know where Randall lives? 

Deja is old enough to communicate that.  Also, the internet. 

[Jeddah]

4 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

True, but only Jack was the alcoholic.  Deja seemed more like the mother, than her mother.  Also, just because someone gives birth, doesn't make them an automatic mother, biologically, yes but I've seen plenty of adults fucked up by their bio parents for me to feel that "well, biology" trumps everything.  

I don’t think biology trumps everything. I never said that. I think she should get Deja back because she is her mother, not because she’s her biological mother.

[Lady Calypso]

5 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I agree that of course his issues are deep-rooted, long-standing and involve the family.  But my point is/was that only Kevin is going to be able to help Kevin.  Yes, professionals, family support, etc. are all good and important, but he is in charge of his problems and progress or lack thereof.  I think that is one of the tenets of Al-Anon -- work on yourself, you don't control anyone else.   Allow the addict to face the natural consequences of their behavior. That's why I don't see Miguel or anybody else 'saving' him, it just doesn't work that way. 

I don't think it's been about someone like Miguel saving Kevin, not at all. I think it's just more about someone noticing what he's going through and helping him recover. Kevin already recognizes, to an extent, that he's not doing the right thing, and that needs help. He just doesn't know how to help himself, which is where other parties should be coming in. Because right now, Kevin has nobody; he's basically pushed everyone he's closest to away. He's been hiding out, interacting with few people, and that's been his problem. The first step to helping himself is talking to his friends and family about what's been going on. He's already been facing some of the consequences of his actions, and that will clearly continue with his DUI and his niece being with him, watching him get arrested. He's not going to get off easy, not by a long shot. This show is clearly not afraid to give Kevin the rightful consequences of his behaviour. He is being arrested for a DUI, and it will most likely stay on his record. His brother will be pissed at him for driving while drunk with Tess in the car. He has lost his dad's necklace and can't get it back. He has hurt Sophie to the point of breaking up with her. He has hurt countless number of people around him. Those are all consequences he keeps facing over the season, and there's still probably more to come. 

I do think Kevin will eventually be put into rehab for treatment. However, I don't know if it'll be in the premiere, or if they'll continue to spiral Kevin to a true rock bottom with an overdose. Now THAT is the million dollar question on whether they want to continue shitting on Kevin and basically throw every bad choice he's made into the rest of the season, or if they'll finally say "that's enough" and start him on the road to heal. His brother is definitely not going to forgive him for endangering Tess, intentional or not. However, in order for Kevin to heal, he will need everyone's support. And I think Randall's support is going to be important for Kevin. Despite Randall's possible feelings toward Kevin in the premiere being justified, Kevin's success at getting clean has more to do than just his will to get better. His will does rely on the people he loves and them being there. We know Kevin's depression somewhat stems off of how worthless he feels and how ignored he feels from the people around him. I think what Kevin needs is for people to show him that he does matter. Kevin's problems are going to be become his family's problems for a while, like it or not. Clearly, it's up to Kevin to make better choices, but he clearly has been unable to accomplish that on his own. 

So, it's definitely not about saving Kevin, but about helping and supporting Kevin. It's going to be a long road for Kevin, but also for his family. I'm just ready for someone to finally acknowledge that Kevin needs help and not continue to give excuses for his behaviour (his beard's for a movie, he's just tired, etc). 

So basically, I agree with you and I think we really are on the same page! 

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, possibilities said:

the bedroom that William used which Deja then used after William was gone,

It'd make sense but the room William used and the one Deja used aren't the same, I'm pretty sure.  Or at the very least they remodeled it after William died.  It was decorated like a young girl's room before.  I actually think it was a different room, with a different window orientation, but I can't swear to it.  The bed was in a different spot in relation to the door, I think.  

I would expect Tess and Annie would want their own rooms back between the two house guests.  I'm not sure how long it's been.  William was there last Thanksgiving and it's close to Thanksgiving again so it's been a while, right?   Not that's it's beyond belief, but not one of my sisters nor I would've willingly shared a bedroom a minute longer than necessary.  

[DFWGina]

I definitely think the fuse box was a foreshadow to the housefire.  Or a red herring.  Definitely one of those!  haha

Hopefully this is Kevin's rock bottom and he can recover...

Good episode -- loved the William flashbacks within the flashback.  

[saber5055]

Why don't Randall and Beth consider adoption if they are so stressed about foster kids being taken away, which happens. There are older kids who could be adopted, especially kids of color. Why foster? For the pay check? A family with Big House, Nice Car, Full Fridge shouldn't need that foster income check, a reason some people do foster.

Is there a reason they chose foster?

[Clanstarling]

As I recall, Randall wanted to adopt, and Beth didn't. I think she offered fostering as a compromise.

[Aileen]

6 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

It's a nit picky detail, which matters if you're into those details. Basically, how did Kevin get to Randall's house in the first place (Uber or rental car?) and if it was an Uber, did he steal Randall's car?

I suppose it would matter to the story line if he stole the car, because Randall's reaction to that would be somewhat different than if it was Kevin's rental.  I'd think the danger to his daughter would be his foremost thought, not the car. Though Kevin stealing the car would be second, and Kevin and his addiction problems would, I think, be once again the last thing he would be concerned about. 

I'm so confused here...they showed Kevin driving to Randall's house. Why do people not think Kevin was in possession of a car?

[GodsBeloved]

5 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Very true. I think Kevin needs to be getting treatment for himself because he wants it, first and farmost. The person that needs to be on board is Kevin himself. But I also believe that he truly cannot do it just by himself. He definitely needs his family's support, so in that sense, I don't think he can truly get clean and sober for very long without his family by his side. He's already admitted that he needs help, even if he hasn't outright told anyone yet. He's actually pretty self aware of his issue but can't seem to climb out of the hole he dug himself in. He really seems to hate himself, which is the biggest issue. They can get him clean and sober all they want, but that won't deal with the underlying problem that he does have. Randall hasn't been uncaring at all; he's been nice with Kevin, even when Kevin treated him horribly most of his life. But I also think that he hasn't seen that Kevin has his own problems that he's been burying, which isn't his fault, but it just adds to Kevin's depression.

Someone upthread mentioned when Kevin dropped his play and literally ran to Randall when sensed something was wrong. We see Rebecca "running" to Kate after she lost her baby. But with Kevin, we are still waiting for his family to run to his side.

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

So basically, I agree with you and I think we really are on the same page! 

Yeah, I think so.  He has to do the heavy lifting of his recovery, but right now he needs a lifeline.  That could be Rebecca, maybe Miguel, probably not Kate, but most likely, imo, Randall.  We saw them earlier this season in their kid camp out where Kevin let down his hostility toward Randall, and I think that same episode introduced little Nicky, so I think the brothers theme is going to play out some more.  I think Randall will move past the Tess in danger thing, he forgave Rebecca pretty fast for keeping William from him.  He also just exhibited compassion for Deja's mom, so he has it in him. 

 

26 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Someone upthread mentioned when Kevin dropped his play and literally ran to Randall when sensed something was wrong. We see Rebecca "running" to Kate after she lost her baby. But with Kevin, we are still waiting for his family to run to his side.

I think they will once they understand.  Randall saw him flaking at the charity auction but was focused on Deja, naturally enough.  New foster kid, running off to bathroom and locking herself in.  Now he sees Kevin drunk and notices it, says he looks like hell, but knows nothing of his drug use after the knee injury, so really has no other red flags yet.  The DUI, and not noticing a kid in the car, should do it. 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Aileen said:

I'm so confused here...they showed Kevin driving to Randall's house. Why do people not think Kevin was in possession of a car?

I don't know, exactly. I was just explaining what I thought the interest was, based on what I read here. 

I don't recall seeing him driving to Randall's, just arriving at the doorstep, but I'm sure I didn't pay enough attention to know one way or the other. 

[After7Only]

5 hours ago, Jeddah said:

I don’t think it’s an unpopular opinion to think Randall and Beth could have given Deja more advantages than her mother could. I agree with that completely. But parents shouldn’t have their parental rights terminated because a well-off family wants their kid. That’s not how the system works, nor should it be. 

 

I agree that rights shouldn't be terminated just because a well-off family wants the kid.  I can definitely see this argument if this was Deja's first stint in foster care.  But she's repeatedly been in foster care.  So much so that Deja can explain the process of how the social worker should properly reunite them to her mother.  In Randall's and Beth's shoes, I wouldn't want Deja to go back to her mother either.    Deja's mother didn't really give the impression that was going to change her bad decision making this go round.  Just that she was innocent of "this" crime and that she loves her daughter.    It's a tricky situation.  Maybe her mother will step and stay out of trouble, or maybe Deja ends back up in foster care.  This time older, and even less likely to find an adoptive family and definitely not one as cool as the Pearson's.   

 

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

As I recall, Randall wanted to adopt, and Beth didn't. I think she offered fostering as a compromise.

Randall wanted to adopt a newborn.  Beth did not and suggested they adopt an older child.  Fostering was part of the process.

 

Interesting that Tess was the only one who saw Kevin was in trouble.  She's a very empathetic child.  

The whole big house/ big car/work hard  thing felt as if it was a callback to an earlier conversation between Randall/Deja (that may have been cut).  Like Deja asked Randall how did he get the big house, big car.  And he told her by working hard.  Felt like an inside thing between the two, rather than him telling her that's the key to happiness and success.  

[Cardie]

3 hours ago, Aileen said:

Why do people not think Kevin was in possession of a car?

Because people expect TV life to be like real life, when writers in fact ignore real world procedures for dramatic effect as a matter of course. We do see Kevin calling Randall from the road to say he's on his way, so there's no ambiguity about the fact that he at some point between Pittsburgh and NJ obtained a car and drove there. What's bothering people is that he would have had to rent that car in the middle of the night, while intoxicated. But in TV world, that's completely possible, because plot demands. Fictional dramas are not documentaries. I don't know any one of them that would pass the real world test in every episode. If you want to rationalize, he's a famous actor and a call to his agent or manager would probably result in a car being delivered to his hotel at 3 a.m. They would have offered him a driver, but if he said he wanted to drive himself, they probably would have acquiesced.

[theatremouse]

On 11/28/2017 at 10:09 PM, camom said:

Do we know how long Deja was with Randall and Beth? 

September to November-before-Thanksgiving.

On 11/29/2017 at 0:13 PM, saber5055 said:

I question Randall's stressing "Big house, nice car" to Deja when IMO the important things in life are not material.

I don't think the point was to emphasize the importance of material things. He brought it up in response to her saying the other kids would give her a hard time if she seemed to care about her schoolwork. The point was half to give her a goalpost, that doing well in school leads to a stable (okay schmancy) lifestyle, and half to give her her a retort to any taunting.

 

I fully expected Kevin to crash that car, and be happy about about, until the kid popped up.

[MsChicklet]

9 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Everybody always assumed Kevin was okay.  He was the oldest, he didn't have a weight issue, he was the same race as his parents, he didn't act out at home, didn't get involved in drugs or gangs or anything like that.  There was always something more "important" going on for anybody to be concerned about Kevin's issues.

This. Jack mentioned to Randall how, with three kids, there's always one in the blind spot. It seems that one was usually Kevin. He was able to hide because he was a good-looking, talented, charming white boy. What more could he possibly need? Kate and Randall -- and, towards the end, Jack -- had more obvious needs.

The whole family now gets to wonder how they missed this for months. It's not fair, but as someone who has had to deal with addiction in the family and has talked with others in similar situations, there can be a lot of looking back and self-recrimination over not seeing certain signs. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by MsChicklet

[BoogieBurns]

13 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I wasn’t suggesting Beth couldn’t have gone to Harvard.  Just that I thought it had been said they met at Howard.  

I know. Only my friend said that. You're good, sorry if I phrased it in an unintended unkind way toward you.

[JasminePhyllisia]

On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 2:56 AM, Drumpf1737 said:

Beth continues to be amazing and my favorite part of the show.

Beth's wardrobe continues to be amazing and my favorite part of the show.

[Rae Spellman]

6 hours ago, saber5055 said:

Why don't Randall and Beth consider adoption if they are so stressed about foster kids being taken away, which happens. There are older kids who could be adopted, especially kids of color. Why foster? For the pay check? A family with Big House, Nice Car, Full Fridge shouldn't need that foster income check, a reason some people do foster.

Is there a reason they chose foster?

One reason to foster might be to figure out if Randall and family are really up for the long-term commitment/challenge/legal responsibility of adding someone to their family who has experienced years of trauma, neglect, and/or abuse. 

[Katekate]

The social worker with the little boy looked a lot like an older Tess. I don’t think they’d jump that far in the future...but, weird, no?

[Superpole2000]

13 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Actually, they're not really on the same page. Randall wanted to adopt and his plan was never to foster. It was Beth who was insistent that they foster, because of her belief of helping kids who needed it. Either way, I actually don't think Randall's plan to adopt was completely thought out, because I still believe it's his way of dealing with William's death, of holding on to something that he had lost; basically, his initial reason for even adopting was to adopt a boy to complete this next generation of what happened to him as a baby. However, what neither accounted for was truly seeing how their actual kids would feel. It was a different story with Kate and Kevin, because they were newborns when Randall was adopted. But even then, we've seen that Kevin had some issues with having an adopted brother (I think partly because of how other kids most likely gossiped and judged his family, but also because Randall was treated differently by Jack and Rebecca). But Tess and Annie are old enough to be able to have a say. I know that they eventually told Tess/Annie and they seemed fine with it, but what Randall hasn't figured out is that he IS repeating the cycle that Rebecca, in particular, started, where the treatment of the biological kids is different from the adopted/foster kid. The new kid coming into their home needs the help, no doubt about it, but so do the biological kids, especially ones who are older and have problems of their own. 

Which is why I'm kind of hoping that this season ends with Randall realizing that he didn't go into the adoption/foster route with the purest of intentions and that it may not be the right move unless he deals with Tess and Annie's feelings first. I think Randall got too overly excited and it blinded him to his own children. They may say the words "It's fine" but he hasn't seen what they're saying silently. And with Tess jumping in her uncle's car just to get away from her family and how she "hates" it at home (she obviously doesn't truly hate it, but she's going through a lot which makes her feel like she hates it), who knows when Randall and Beth will really see that issue. They're going to be too pissed at Kevin to really hear what Tess is saying, and I'm not sure she'll tell them right off the bat how she feels. Which...is actually interesting, because we're now seeing a little taste of Kevin in Tess. I totally see why she jumped in his car and what they were going for there. 

I have seen little evidence that the writers carefully consider Randall/Beth's kids when writing episodes. They are just kind of there as background. That's not even a complaint, though, because I can't imagine too many storylines involving those kids that would interest me, nor can I see either actor carrying a scene. I still believe the writers tossed that kid in the car to get Randall/Beth more involved in Kevin's plot rather than to get the kid more involved.

I think it is odd that the writers gave Randall/Beth such young kids. I think an older son, someone who could parallel Randall and maybe even be the modern counterpart to the fascinating Cliff/Theo relationship from The Cosby Show, would have been more interesting. These two kids are just dullsville to me.

[pennben]

I completely misread an earlier comment.  Whoops, carry on:)

ETA:  Here's the quote I misread as talking about the current social looking much older (and I thought perhaps comments about her having work done were missing a point):

Quote

The social worker with the little boy looked a lot like an older Tess. I don’t think they’d jump that far in the future...but, weird, no?

Although my initial thinking on this was wrong (same current social worker years from now), one thing I've always thought is they are going to slip in a flash-forward sooner or later (and compliment themselves on it being groundbreaking, sigh).  So, maybe this could still be the first flash-forward and we aren't going to realize it for awhile?

It's gonna happen someday......

Edited December 1, 2017 by pennben

[Dowel Jones]

15 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

He could've drank on the drive, or his "DUI" might be pill-influenced. 

I thought that he poured more than one drink's worth of vodka in that OJ glass.  More like 2-2 1/2, which would certainly give him enough instability to fail a field sobriety test.  Maybe the BAL test would come up short at the hospital.

[debraran]

8 hours ago, theatremouse said:

September to November-before-Thanksgiving.

I don't think the point was to emphasize the importance of material things. He brought it up in response to her saying the other kids would give her a hard time if she seemed to care about her schoolwork. The point was half to give her a goalpost, that doing well in school leads to a stable (okay schmancy) lifestyle, and half to give her her a retort to any taunting.

 

I fully expected Kevin to crash that car, and be happy about about, until the kid popped up.

I agree re the car, I thought he just didn't care at the time. It's was an eerie moment because a coworker, who's 65 now, told me that when she was young, very depressed and feeling trapped, she wanted to drive her car into a tree and then maybe the pain would stop or someone would see her. They blamed it all on being young with a kid, didn't want to see it.

I felt taken back by Randall's big house comment, like that was the be all and end all. My daughter, who is mixed and works with high risk kids said, "I work with very poor children and sometimes things are so bad, you need a desire or goal to get out. To have a lot of money or be house poor isn't a great goal, but to someone living with a lot of depression, it might just keep them in school and working hard. It would have been better to say something about following her dream, she can have what he has (maybe) or achieve her own goal, which is more important, but it's TV and it was taken by Deja I feel the way he wanted her too.

4 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

I have seen little evidence that the writers carefully consider Randall/Beth's kids when writing episodes. They are just kind of there as background. That's not even a complaint, though, because I can't imagine too many storylines involving those kids that would interest me, nor can I see either actor carrying a scene. I still believe the writers tossed that kid in the car to get Randall/Beth more involved in Kevin's plot rather than to get the kid more involved.

I think it is odd that the writers gave Randall/Beth such young kids. I think an older son, someone who could parallel Randall and maybe even be the modern counterpart to the fascinating Cliff/Theo relationship from The Cosby Show, would have been more interesting. These two kids are just dullsville to me.

This was Beth's quote about fostering.

"This was his favorite spot. I've been coming here almost every day, trying to figure out how I can give you what you want. Trying to wrap my head around it. And I know you have this notion in your mind, this notion of a perfect little newborn that we could shape and mold from scratch like Play-Doh, but Randall, we're really gonna do this, I think this is the way. Your parents did something wonderful for you. And because of that, you had a wonderful like. But things could have been very different for you. That could have been you. If you really want to do this, if you really want to risk our perfectly imperfect life for something, let's go all the way. Let's take in an older kid who no one else in the whole damn world is gonna help."

— Beth Pearson (A Manny-Splendored Thing

[theatremouse]

Which still confuses me why they signed up to foster, to foster. At the time I absolutely thought she meant "let's adopt an older kid" from the foster system, which still seems like a thing they should consider doing. It made the whole plot with Deja nonsensical. Just looking at her words again reaffirm that this whole plot made no sense. So, yay it ended in this episode? But the angst was unearned (by the show, not the characters) because there was no reason for them to have been in that position anyway.

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, theatremouse said:

Which still confuses me why they signed up to foster, to foster. At the time I absolutely thought she meant "let's adopt an older kid" from the foster system, which still seems like a thing they should consider doing. It made the whole plot with Deja nonsensical. Just looking at her words again reaffirm that this whole plot made no sense. So, yay it ended in this episode? But the angst was unearned (by the show, not the characters) because there was no reason for them to have been in that position anyway.

This was a real irritation with me regarding this story line.  It seemed to me that Randall and Beth had no intention of "fostering," but rather adopting.  Then, when they had to face the reality of what they were doing, they seemed very entitled about the whole thing (until the end).  I would think that someone would have let them know exactly what they were signing up for earlier in the fostering process.

[ShadowFacts]

53 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

This was a real irritation with me regarding this story line.  It seemed to me that Randall and Beth had no intention of "fostering," but rather adopting.  Then, when they had to face the reality of what they were doing, they seemed very entitled about the whole thing (until the end).  I would think that someone would have let them know exactly what they were signing up for earlier in the fostering process.

I think somebody did.  Just recently Linda the social worker said something like "I need to remind you that this is exactly what you signed up for."  When she first dropped off Deja, she told him to take it slow, don't have expectations.  He didn't respond and she looked at him and said "that's not you, is it?" or "you don't do that, do you?"  He just steamrolled over whatever anyone advised him.  Randall knows best.