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S09.E01: 11 Years Later


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As several here have stated, it's a bit confusing what's supposed to have happened and what was Karen's 'dream'. Since there are no kids, that means all those episodes where Grace was pregnant aren't canon; however, it seems that recent little election video they did is. It's also kind of depressing that both their relationships failed.

Those are relatively minor quibbles, though. I must admit, I'm this show's bitch. So great to have it back. I love these characters to death, faults and all. I've been watching since the first episode nearly 20 years ago, and though the quality wavered in the later seasons, the show is still the visual equivalent of comfort food for me. I'm all in.

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12 hours ago, ButterQueen said:

Yay!  

So weird that anyone would want it cancelled after just one episode.

I find it bizarre it would be renewed for a second season after 0 episodes had aired.  And yet Last Man Standing was canceled despite their high ratings. 

Edited by Runningwild
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On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 8:50 AM, bichonblitz said:

Did they really have Grace spit out her drink twice? Once all over the kitchen table and again in the oval office on the window? Come on, writers, you can do better than that cause either time it wasn't funny at all. It was lazy. 

I agree.

Apparently the writers think its hysterical. In the W&G special last week, they were laughing uncontrollably at that scene.

 

On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Phoebe70 said:

Big letdown. Wayyyy too political. I don’t recall any shows bashing Obama or Clinton the way this show bashes Trump. Stale jokes and loud, canned laughter. Won’t waste another minute watching this crap. 

In Last Man Standing, Tim Allen threw in his jabs at Obama every now and then. It was very funny, though.

 

I may be the only person who actually watched Sean Saves the World, enjoyed it, and was sad to see it cancelled. I am bitter that this season there is a new show called Kevin (Probably) Saves the World. Originality, people! 

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Ugh.   The laugh track.

The show is filmed in front of a live studio audience. It's possible the audience reaction is augmented in post, because when they have to do multiple retakes the audience has already heard the joke several times. But the show isn't using a laugh track in the traditional sense. Shows don't really do that anymore. The audience may have sounded overly enthused but I can understand how pumped it must have felt to be sitting in that audience welcoming back a show like this. I would have felt pretty lucky to be there.

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As several here have stated, it's a bit confusing what's supposed to have happened and what was Karen's 'dream'. Since there are no kids, that means all those episodes where Grace was pregnant aren't canon; however, it seems that recent little election video they did is. It's also kind of depressing that both their relationships failed.

I'm also not clear on how much of Karen's story has been retconned. I can't remember what ultimately happened to Stanley. I know he "died" and then came back to life (faked his death) but then in the last season, didn't he die again? Or did he and Karen just get a divorce? She was left without any money by the end of the series and had to live off the fortune Jack inherited from Beverly Leslie.

(I also wonder if Beverly Leslie will be back, if he didn't really die either.)

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I may be the only person who actually watched Sean Saves the World, enjoyed it, and was sad to see it cancelled.

I liked it too - Linda Lavin was great in that.

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I stopped watching Will & Grace toward the end because there was too much Jack and Karen. I liked it better when they were more in the background. I watched the first episode, but don't think I'll watch any others. It seemed forced. I hated the laugh track, it was too loud. I felt like they simply plopped the sitcom down in 2017 and tried to be relevant. What was interesting and fun and groundbreaking when it first aired seems old and tired now. The actors who play Will, Grace and Karen look great. Eric McCormack has aged really well and Debra Messing does look good a little heavier. Sean Hayes' face looked a tad overdone. 

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14 hours ago, Runningwild said:

I find it bizarre it would be renewed for a second season after 0 episodes had aired.  And yet Last Man Standing was canceled despite their high ratings. 

They had decent ratings for a Friday night (when people don't watch) but even allowing for those lowered expectations,  the show was # 48 in viewership of broadcast shows (per Nielsen) with an average of 5.89 million viewers, and a 1.7 share in the 18-49 demo.

In comparison, Will & Grace debuted this week with over ten million viewers, a 3.0 share of 18-49 and the W & G reboot helped drive NBC's licensing of the original episodes to Hulu  -- imo, the insta-renewal was about cash+ the expectation that coveted demos would be watching (and -- early days yet -- but between the ratings and Twitter, looks like that expectation paid off).

Edited by film noire
brevity - not wearing my woke jeans today
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4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm also not clear on how much of Karen's story has been retconned. I can't remember what ultimately happened to Stanley. I know he "died" and then came back to life (faked his death) but then in the last season, didn't he die again? Or did he and Karen just get a divorce? She was left without any money by the end of the series and had to live off the fortune Jack inherited from Beverly Leslie.

(I also wonder if Beverly Leslie will be back, if he didn't really die either.)

I'm hoping he's back, especially since we already know Rosario won't be. :( You writing this out made me realize that those scenes with Beverly Leslie being blown off the balcony by a strong gust of wind and K&J singing "Unforgettable" keep Karen's drug-induced retcon of season 8 from being too unbelievable.

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3 hours ago, film noire said:

They had decent ratings for a Friday night (when people don't watch) but even allowing for those lowered expectations,  the show was # 48 in viewership of broadcast shows (per Nielsen) with an average of 5.89 million viewers, and a 1.7 share in the 18-49 demo.

In comparison, Will & Grace debuted this week with over ten million viewers, a 3.0 share of 18-49 and the W & G reboot helped drive NBC's licensing of the original episodes to Hulu  -- imo, the insta-renewal was about cash+ the expectation that coveted demos would be watching (and -- early days yet -- but between the ratings and Twitter, looks like that expectation paid off).

 It sounded like one of the main reasons LMS was cancelled was because their contracts were up, not only for the actors, but also with the production company- they weren't produced by whatever channel the were on, but by a different company, so to continue the show ABC? Or whoever would have had to take over all of the production costs in addition to renegotiating cost with the actors, which means the show was about to get a lot more expensive to make- hence being cancelled.

 

This reboot is going to rake it in, even if the ratings fall off a little bit, they will easily be able to get 2  ten episodes seasons out for minimal cost and great returns. It's always about the money.

Edited by roctavia
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18 hours ago, Runningwild said:

I find it bizarre it would be renewed for a second season after 0 episodes had aired.  And yet Last Man Standing was canceled despite their high ratings. 

Will and Grace was/is a far superior sitcom than Last Man Standing, imo.  I just don't find Tim Allen funny.  

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5 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

especially since we already know Rosario won't be. :( 

She won't?!?! I must have missed this info before. Did anyone say why she's not coming back? Now I'm bummed. Karen and Rosario's scenes together were always some of my favorites.....:(

 

2 hours ago, ButterQueen said:

Will and Grace was/is a far superior sitcom than Last Man Standing, imo.  I just don't find Tim Allen funny.  

Agreed! 

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14 hours ago, Blissfool said:

I may be the only person who actually watched Sean Saves the World, enjoyed it, and was sad to see it cancelled.

I enjoyed it too.  I think it stumbled a bit in the beginning but was starting to find its groove.  Such a great cast.

8 hours ago, roctavia said:

 It sounded like one of the main reasons LMS was cancelled was because their contracts were up, not only for the actors, but also with the production company- they weren't produced by whatever channel the were on, but by a different company, so to continue the show ABC? Or whoever would have had to take over all of the production costs in addition to renegotiating cost with the actors, which means the show was about to get a lot more expensive to make- hence being cancelled.

Yeah, long before it got the axe, I had read insiders talking about how its cost was going to be an issue.  Even CMT took a look at producing it but couldn't make the numbers work.  This after they managed to bring back the huge Nashville cast. 

Now sometimes a production company will agree to bear more of the costs, which may have been the case with W&G if they're getting a Hulu deal out of it, if they see other revenue streams. 

Edited by Irlandesa
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6 hours ago, SparklesBitch said:

She won't?!?! I must have missed this info before. Did anyone say why she's not coming back? Now I'm bummed. Karen and Rosario's scenes together were always some of my favorites.....:(

My Will & Grace & Kevin & Tara podcast co-host Kevin O'Keeffe tells me Shelley Morrison, who played Rosario, has retired from acting.

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7 hours ago, Tara Ariano said:

My Will & Grace & Kevin & Tara podcast co-host Kevin O'Keeffe tells me Shelley Morrison, who played Rosario, has retired from acting.

Ah, I see....I can't fault her for that even though I'll miss Rosario. May she have a long, enjoyable retirement! =) 

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She won't?!?! I must have missed this info before. Did anyone say why she's not coming back? Now I'm bummed. Karen and Rosario's scenes together were always some of my favorites.....:(

She was apparently asked back but she declined the offer - she's 80 years old now, and she's been through several bouts with cancer. Don't know what kind of shape she's in these days. I'll miss seeing her too. 

Come to think of it, that's probably the purpose of this new assistant we saw working in Grace's office. The banter between Karen and Rosie usually centered around Karen calling her all kinds of ethnic slurs. The new assistant is most likely a replacement character for that same dynamic.

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2 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

She was apparently asked back but she declined the offer - she's 80 years old now, and she's been through several bouts with cancer.

Oh, that's a shame :(. Totally understandable reasons, though-I wish her well. 

Still, yeah, I'll miss seeing her around, too. Rosario was fun, and had such a great back and forth with Karen. 

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I thought the premiere episode was amusing enough. I laughed  chuckled  smiled at least a few times. I didn't necessarily mind the political humor, but it was sooo heavy-handed as to not be funny (although I did like the sight gag of the Cheetos bag). I could see Karen being friends with Melania, but finding DJT a boor, if she even thinks about politics.

Mostly, though, I felt sad. Sad that in his late 40s, Jack is still an aimless stereotype; Will is still dull; Karen's voice has moved into the range where only dogs can hear it; and Grace is a ditz. Sad that these characters have had no growth in 10 years. (I did laugh at Jack's joke at the end, about the "middle-aged lady ... and Grace," and I liked seeing Debra Messing crack up.)

 I enjoyed the scene with the secret service agent, mostly because I think Kyle Bornheimer is adorable. Still, hearing Jack described in terms one might use for a 20-year-old twink, not a middle-aged gay man, was off-putting.

I'll probably watch for at least a few more episodes.

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I enjoyed it for what it was. I only watched sporadically during the first run and missed all of the last season so I actually didn't understand Karen's dream bit until reading here. It's something I can put on and not have to make an effort to keep the backstory straight. I wish that Karen had gone back to the lower-pitched character voice of the earlier seasons, but her Laura Bush vs. Pat Nixon pour line was hysterical. And Jack's recounting of all his failed businesses was pretty enjoyable too.

With all the detours of the first run I hope they stick to what was promised at the end of this episode: we're here for Will & Grace's co-dependent and slightly unhealthy relationship, with a dash of Jack and Karen.

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My wife (a huge W&G 1.0 fan) and I watched episode one. We will not be back for another. If wilted Donald Trump jokes are the best that the shlwrunners can offer, it may be time to pull the plug. That being said, I was impressed by Debra Messing having gone from being attractive to ravishingly beautiful. She's aged better than the rest of the cast -- or the writing.

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On 9/28/2017 at 8:49 PM, Valny said:

The Oval Office stuff was a bit much though, especially the Secret Service guy. I don't remember, did this show stretch believability/jokes that far?(like the SS guy)  

The original show had that Hydro-Bra episode, Will dancing to Footloose with Kevin Bacon after being mistaken for his stalker, and Elton John revealing himself as the godfather of the literal Gay Mafia.

 

On 9/28/2017 at 9:29 PM, SparklesBitch said:

Also, they've barely aged, especially Megan Mullally.

Wasn't there a flash-forward with everyone in old age makeup except Karen? Real life is mimicking fiction! (Though I confess feeling malicious glee that Sean Hayes is beginning to resemble F. Murray Abraham's character from Star Trek: Insurrection; Jocelyn Wildenstein should be a cautionary tale, not a role model!)

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7 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

The original show had that Hydro-Bra episode, Will dancing to Footloose with Kevin Bacon after being mistaken for his stalker, and Elton John revealing himself as the godfather of the literal Gay Mafia.

 

Wasn't there a flash-forward with everyone in old age makeup except Karen? Real life is mimicking fiction! (Though I confess feeling malicious glee that Sean Hayes is beginning to resemble F. Murray Abraham's character from Star Trek: Insurrection; Jocelyn Wildenstein should be a cautionary tale, not a role model!)

That "flash-forward" was actually a dream of Grace's, and it was the opening scene in the now no-longer-canon series finale (don't EVEN get me started on the jump-the-shark decision to call THAT and half of Season 8 a dream 11 years later, by the way!).  We've NEVER seen any of them age normally, and thanks to the retcon that nobody asked for, we've never even seen them grow up.

Edited by legaleagle53
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The original show had that Hydro-Bra episode, Will dancing to Footloose with Kevin Bacon after being mistaken for his stalker, and Elton John revealing himself as the godfather of the literal Gay Mafia.

That's kind of the point, though: the longer the show ran, the more absurd the stories became. If you go back to the first couple of seasons, the stories were more or less centered around reality. By the time the show ended I did feel like it was time (or perhaps even a little past time) because they were really running out of ideas. Nothing about this new episode really convinced me they've come up with a great crop of new ideas that justify reviving the show.

That said, it's only been one episode, so it's way too early to judge, and I will happily give them at least a few more before I decide whether or not it was worthwhile to bring this show back.

(I think the Hydro-Bra episode was in Season 2 but that wasn't altogether absurd because those things to exist. The Elton John and Kevin Bacon cameos are more along the lines of what I'd consider absurdism - even though I did enjoy those episodes.)

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Wasn't there a flash-forward with everyone in old age makeup except Karen? 

Yes - in the "future" she looked the same, presumably because her face is filled with botox and plastics. Jack looked pretty much the same too but had some gray at the temples and reading glasses.

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I am very glad that this is back.  As with all the "new" or I guess "rebooted" shows I watch, I always give them about 3 episodes before deciding whether or not I'm in for the run.  I loved the opening shot and piano riff, and was comforted by game night.  I was wondering how they would netcon the series finale and am glad they got that out of the way even though it felt a bit forced.

Several laughs throughout the episode-loved the idea of Karen and Melania for some reason.  However, I didn't like the pillow fight in the Oval Office because it felt too forced and juvenile.  I do hope that the writers address issues that these characters would face at their television ages, and not keep them in some kind of weird time warp that would keep them much more juvenile than they are (the pillow fight made me think that the writers might not age the characters much from the original run even though in the original run there were times that the characters acted far too juvenile/young for their professions and ages).

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On 10/2/2017 at 10:24 AM, iMonrey said:

She was apparently asked back but she declined the offer - she's 80 years old now, and she's been through several bouts with cancer. Don't know what kind of shape she's in these days. I'll miss seeing her too. 

Come to think of it, that's probably the purpose of this new assistant we saw working in Grace's office. The banter between Karen and Rosie usually centered around Karen calling her all kinds of ethnic slurs. The new assistant is most likely a replacement character for that same dynamic.

That may be the intention, but I doubt they'll be able to replicate the dynamic.  Rosario wasn't putting up with most of Karen's nonsense, and from the way the assistant was responding to Grace's questions, I didn't get the impression he'd call Karen names to her face.

 

On 10/2/2017 at 1:19 PM, phantom said:

I wish that Karen had gone back to the lower-pitched character voice of the earlier seasons, but her Laura Bush vs. Pat Nixon pour line was hysterical.

Some channel has been airing reruns of Will & Grace starting about a week ago, and I was surprised at how normal Karen's voice started out as (even though I know it still wasn't Meagan Mullally's real voice).  I hadn't realized how much it had changed.  I also hadn't remembered that she'd started out as a fairly normal person.

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I was so grateful to have read a few advance reviews before the show premiere, otherwise I would have been so unexpectedly disappointed I might have cried.  I have tremendous affection for the original W&G show, and I still want it back.  This wasn't it.  It was good to see the characters again, in spite of all of the cast acting as though they still had some rust to shake off.  Other than that, I hated almost everything about it.  No novel complaints beyond what many of you have already written.

Having read multiple advance reviews for the next two episodes, all agreeing it gets better, I'm willing to give it one more chance.  Maybe two.  If it doesn't do a 180 degree turnaround, I'll be out in spite of my undying love for the characters.

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Anyone remember if that clip they kept promoting of Karen rocking out to Fox News on her headphones actually aired on this episode.  I don't remember seeing it. 

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On 10/4/2017 at 0:54 PM, TheGreenKnight said:

Personally, I never felt they needed to "grow up." They were 30-somethings going on 40 when the first series started.

I don't think people -- no matter what their ages -- should ever stop growing.

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21 hours ago, A.J. said:

Anyone remember if that clip they kept promoting of Karen rocking out to Fox News on her headphones actually aired on this episode.  I don't remember seeing it. 

It didn't air. Either it was cut or could be from an upcoming episode.

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On 9/28/2017 at 9:13 PM, NeenerNeener said:

Before the opening credits were done I remembered why I stopped watching this show 12 years ago. This is just so forced it's painful to watch.

It's true, you can't go home again.

This was pathetic.  Makes me wonder if it ever was funny.   Debra Messing is just terrible, IMO. 

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Kyle Bornheimer, who played the Secret Service Agent, was also on the season premiere of Modern Family, the night before. 

I really liked him. In contrast to wild and crazy Jack, he played his part very low-key, like he was content to sit back comfortably and watch Sean go to town with the silliness. I appreciated it, because the main cast seemed a bit too over-the-top with their acting in this episode, so it was good to see someone pull back and talk normally. I hope as the season goes on, the actors will settle down into their roles and only bring out the over-the-top for key moments. 

I loved the original series, and I think I remember it being like that - they'd fluctuate between subtle and over-the-top. Sometimes you'd get a lovely scene between Will & Grace (like the one in season 1 where she took him, Karen and Jack to Karen's cabin to get Will's mind off of his break-up with his long-term boyfriend) -- I expect we'll see some of those gentler moments again. At least I hope so. It can't all be over-the-top all the time or it will get exhausting.

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On 9/28/2017 at 10:18 PM, bichonblitz said:

Except Eric McCormick, he is as handsome as ever. That's all I have to say about this first ep. 

THIS for days!!! He is so damn handsome!! I actually think he looks better with the teensy bit of salt & pepper hair.

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Can't believe they retconned out the kids, all you'd need to say is that Leo and Vince got full custody and moved out of town, they could visit them off camera between seasons. Do hope we have Beverley Lester back. Everyone still looks great, especially Eric McCormack. Watching this in the UK is interesting because they make the joke about Trump not lasting a year as president and he just about has. 

On ‎02‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 2:15 AM, SparklesBitch said:

She won't?!?! I must have missed this info before. Did anyone say why she's not coming back? Now I'm bummed. Karen and Rosario's scenes together were always some of my favorites.....:(

 

Agreed! 

Tim Allen was never that funny, what made it funny was watching this rapidly fading Alpha (Beta?) male having to interact with the diverse female cast of characters, especially Eve who was a somewhat unique character on TV. 

 Hope we have Rosie back, even if she just phones Karen from her hospital bed/retirement home or whatever. 

Edited by Joe Hellandback
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