S02.E03: Dance Dance Resolution

[CooperTV]

For a show about Hell and torturing of sinners The Good Place has surprisingly low stakes. The last episode's memory wipe-out was completely predictable. This episode's over 800 of the wipe-outs were even more predictable, as Michael's finale decision to (probably pretend) to work together with the main characters.

I don't care enough for The Bad Place's BHS drama to be that invested in the demons' strike or Michael's depression, and the writers aren't giving me enough of the characters I like to still be invested in their struggles. We barely had Tahani last week, we barely had Chidi this time and practically no Tahani at all. But sure, we're supposed to root for Chidi/Eleanor, even though the show made them into stick figures.

Meh.

PS: Mind-wipes creeps me out and I don't find it funny at all.

[Fukui San]

To toot my own horn, I kind of got close in the Speculation Thread. Just sayin'

On 9/22/2017 at 11:28 AM, Fukui San said:

I was thinking of doing a wild speculation post on the episode thread of the Season 2 opener, but thought it'd be better on a Speculation thread. And lo and behold, one exists!

With the setup we have at current, the writers have a wide range of things they could do. They also have set a pace that is very fast and hard to keep up with, with V2.0 crashing and burning in a day. The whole of season 1 had one status quo. Eleanor didn't belong, and it threatened The Good Place. I kind of think they need to settle on a status quo to last through season 2.

My speculation: We see Eleanor and the gang ruin the illusion again. Michael is despondent, and says he'll have to wipe their memories again. One of them says "We've done this before?"  Michael says "We've done this 173 times and you keep screwing it up! I can't hide this from Sean anymore!" Michael explains "retirement", and the four + Janet hatch a scheme. They have to work with Michael and pretend to be tortured by The Good Place in order to prevent an eternity of "old fashioned" torture in The Bad Place. This will last until the end of Season 2. Then something will blow up the status quo again.

Megan Amram needs to name my restaurant.

This job would be terribly boring for most of the demons even if it worked. Day after day of being a background player, maybe occasionally having an interaction with one of the humans. Constantly stressing about keeping the secret. I'd long for the relative simplicity of impaling as well. If Michael had pitched it so that the resets are part of the design, so that the demons would have variety and it wasn't necessary to fool them for 1,000 years, it'd have gone over a lot better. They figure it out, you get to do a bwah hah hah speech, and we get to change up the scenario so that they demons get to do different things. This could be pitched as a change of pace vacation for the demons.

The furthest we are shown in the intended scenario is when they must make a decision for someone to go to the bad place. I have no idea how he intended to go from there.

I'd guess that Michael would have had to write Shawn and the Bad Place demons out of the ongoing script, or else the jig would have been up a long time ago

Let's do some math. If this is attempt #802, and let's assume the attempts average one week before failure, and that they spend 3 days resetting, so 10 days per attempt to get 8010 days total, or 21.98 years at this point.

Chidi is great with facial reactions in the background. Two examples: When his teaching session is cut short by Eleanor going to the poetry reading, he has a pained expression when Eleanor says she's been into Sebastian recently, and when Mindy says that sometimes she walks in on them while she's masturbating.

I now wish Stone Cold Steve Austin made a cameo as one of Eleanor's Soulmates. And I'd love to see an Elseworlds' episode of a) Eleanor and Tahani as Soulmates and b) them trying to seduce Michael.

So now we have a new status quo of the four having to work with Michael to fool the demons while the demons think things are going OK, with Vicky likely prying for the truth.

[clack]

Love this show. That said, I have a nitpick.

Michael's plan makes no sense. He has to situate 4 young, attractive people in a setting that could plausibly pass as heaven, and then subject them to mildly stressful situations and relationships. Make the relationships too stressful, and they will figure out that they are in the Bad Place.

And this is supposed to be an improvement in torture over subjecting them to unending screaming agony?

The Good Place isn't actually the Bad Place. At worst, it's the O.K. Place. I would actually prefer it to Mindy's Purgatory. At least you have variety of experience, and the possibility of friendship and even love.

Edited September 29, 2017 by clack

[marny]

11 hours ago, Zmanda said:

The show is just so hilarious!

 

I love Vicki!  She was wearing the best sweater. Orange with a little turtle on it... does anyone know how I can find out what brand it is?

It's from J.Crew apparently: http://www.shopyourtv.com/2017/09/season-2-episode-3-vickys-yellow-turtle-sweater/

[Amarsir]

11 minutes ago, Fukui San said:

So now we have a new status quo of the four having to work with Michael to fool the demons while the demons think things are going OK, with Vicky likely prying for the truth.

That seems hard to keep up for long though. Chidi and Jason both seem incapable of maintaining a complex lie in all their interactions. (For different reasons.) Vicky and others are going to want roles with significant interactions, and the humans would have to convincingly play along with a pretense that's supposed to be torturing them. Hard to pull off.

Also narratively it's a problem. This show is already difficult for someone to jump into midstream, but between flashbacks and retellings it does a good job of summarizing. However, if half the things the characters say are lies, and the audience is supposed to know that, it would be very confusing. 

So certainly that's where we'll be for an episode, but I don't see it being long-term enough to become the status quo. But then I don't even know what passes for status quo anymore. 

[steff13]

Oh my goodness!  So many things I loved about this episode. 

-Michael still wearing a bowtie with his sweats when he got "fat." 

-All the various bad place scenarios, especially the bees, the giant pig, and the clam chowder fountain (I'm with Eleanor on this)

-Chidi immediately telling Eleanor he loved her too.  I loved that. 

[Tetraneutron]

12 hours ago, Linny said:

Eleanor and Chidi falling into bed and in love wasn't what I was expecting, but I liked it. There's enough chemistry between them to justify a romantic pairing, so I would like to see that fleshed out. I also liked Mindy tiredly flipping through her outdated copy of People magazine while Eleanor freaked out. Mindy is fucking strange but somehow she works for me.

The restaurants changing names in the background throughout the various attempts was so incredibly well done. Knish From A Rose, Cake Canaveral, Biscotti Pippen, Beignet and the Jet, The Pestos Yet To Come, You Do the Hokey Gnocchi and You Get Yourself Some Food, and Hot Dog on a Stick on a Stick were inspired and hilarious. It's these thoughtful layers of comedy that really make this show shine.

Why wasn't it what you expected? This is a pretty original TV show but it's still a TV show and the main character needs a love interest and the love interest is going to be the good-looking person of the appropriate gender, who is good and decent. If they DIDN'T get together it would shock me. I like Mindy and I like the idea of the medium place. 

11 hours ago, DrScottie said:

This show is forking amazing. 

I'm surprised the more higher up demons like Glenn (who was at the conference table) or Todd (the lava monster) haven't reported to Shawn about the multiple reboots. Vicki is blackmailing him so I get why she isn't. 

It was fun to see Eleanor act the jerk she was in real life again. Redemption arcs can get a little dull to see. 

I feel bad for Mindy knowing these people will keep showing up not remembering anything. You know, I am hoping they can bring some stuff back from their neighborhood to Mindy's place. She should have more than warm beer, an outdated People magazine, and old VHS tapes. She needs her fix. 

 

The Medium place is weird to me. I get the warm beer and outdated videos. But the loneliness must be torture. I wonder if she gets a lot of visitors. As for the other demons not saying anything, I think we still don't have a read on the way hell bureaucracy works. Honestly, most of us probably wouldn't complain to our boss's boss about stuff above out pay grade no matter how annoying we found it. And we don't even work for a company that can send us to the eternal shriek. 

11 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

I will NEVER FORGIVE this show for not giving me more of the Tahani is your soulmate scenario!

Except for that one soul crushing error in judgment, that was perfect. Watching Eleanor (and Jason that one time) figure it out every single time would have gotten  really dull if they played it out more. But at the same time why wouldn't she figure it out every time? It's not like she had a note first season. The way they did it was just perfect. Michael would never just give up after three tries.

My favorites of the Groundhog Afterlife were Eleanor just walking in on him talking into his recorder, his going off about it while Eleanor was sitting right there, and the revolving clown figures (?). Oh and Chidi being chased in the background.

The interesting thing to me is that it seems like Janet was the cause behind Chidi and Eleanor being reunited each time. And Chidi and Eleanor being together will always lead to growth (for both) and recognition.

I read speculation on another forum that Janet was actually God. Or like a fragment of God's consciousness. Like she's the Holy Ghost. This episode made me think it was true. Michael has no idea what/who he stole. And she's just forking with him and having a blast.

The one thing about this show is they really only have 4 main characters and one collection of Florida dirtbag cliches. That makes it hard for a show like this to create new plot. And the demons - that's just an unconventional workplace sitcom. I don't know if there's a lot we can do with them as characters rather than plot devices. Vicki is a good example. She's not a character for its own sake, she's just a way to move the plot forward. To get Michael to team up with the humans. Unless they really do something different with Mindy, or some more humans die and go to the fake Good Place, it seems like it's going to run out of plot real fast. 

[CofCinci]

11 hours ago, Zmanda said:

The show is just so hilarious!

 

I love Vicki!  She was wearing the best sweater. Orange with a little turtle on it... does anyone know how I can find out what brand it is?

That's J. Crew from last spring. I've noticed Eleanor wears a lot of J. Crew (do they have a placement contract?), so I was surprised to see Vicki wearing it. 

[Fukui San]

Just now, CofCinci said:

That's J. Crew from last spring. I've noticed Eleanor wears a lot of J. Crew (do they have a placement contract?), so I was surprised to see Vicki wearing it. 

J. Crew. The official clothier for fake heaven.

[Milburn Stone]

19 minutes ago, clack said:

Love this show. That said, I have a nitpick.

Michael's plan makes no sense. He has to situate 4 young, attractive people in a setting that could plausible pass as heaven, and then subject them to mildly stressful situations and relationships. Make the relationships too stressful, and they will figure out that they are in the Bad Place.

And this is supposed to be an improvement in torture over subjecting them to unending screaming agony?

I love the argument you make, but at the end of the day don't agree with it. I feel like Michael Schur is saying a truth, from deep in himself: "There's nothing worse--nothing--not hot pokers in your eyes, not being stretched on the rack, nothing--than the hell that individual human consciousness creates for itself."

That's the human tragedy, which Schur adeptly turns into comedy. (He's far from the first, but has found a uniquely ingenious new way to do it.)

Michael (Danson)'s theory is sound, if only he could get the execution right. The devil is in the details.

[Zmanda]

37 minutes ago, marny said:

It's from J.Crew apparently: http://www.shopyourtv.com/2017/09/season-2-episode-3-vickys-yellow-turtle-sweater/

Thank you, thank you!!!  I hate that it's from last spring, because I'll probably never find it. At least I know what it is now!

[Chaos Theory]

28 minutes ago, Amarsir said:

That seems hard to keep up for long though. Chidi and Jason both seem incapable of maintaining a complex lie in all their interactions. (For different reasons.) Vicky and others are going to want roles with significant interactions, and the humans would have to convincingly play along with a pretense that's supposed to be torturing them. Hard to pull off.

Which is going to be Hell for everyone 

[RainbowBrite]

I'm starting to wonder how Michael's plan could ever work long-term either...I mean if they're told they're in the Good Place, why would there be a fountain of clam chowder? Why would they be unhappy? They will obviously begin to question it every time. I guess that issue has been resolved now as they start to work with Michael, but it really hit me in this episode just how flawed Michael's original plan was. The concept is great, but I can't imagine how he would execute it. The simple fact is that the Good Place would have to be good for it to be believable.

[Chaos Theory]

48 minutes ago, Amarsir said:

That seems hard to keep up for long though. Chidi and Jason both seem incapable of maintaining a complex lie in all their interactions. (For different reasons.) Vicky and others are going to want roles with significant interactions, and the humans would have to convincingly play along with a pretense that's supposed to be torturing them. Hard to pull off.

Which is going to be Hell for everyone. Humans and demons alike.  Michael may have succeeded in creating a perfect hell....for everyone.  Himself included.

It will be fun to watch though.  Chidi rectify lying (because we know how much he loves lying).  Tahani and Jason keeping up with appearances.   I think the only one who might enjoy herself is Eleanor pitting her against Vicky.   Real Eleanor and Fake Eleanor take....whatever round they are on.

Although I don't really ship them I would love to see flashbacks of Eleanor and Tahani as soulmates.  I could see them fighting for weeks (making all Michael's shaningans happen)   and then one day their fight leads into angry sex only for Tahani to suddenly go into cuddly girlfriend mode and where Eleanor suddenly realizes "this is the bad place".

Edited September 29, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Lugal]

So awesome.  Michael's reel to reel, Eleanor just walking in on attempt #109 and Jason figuring it out.  And then there was Jason's plan: "Find the magic panda, steal her powers."

I wish we could have seen Eleanor and Tahani as soulmates.  Because when you think about it, there is no way Eleanor would admit to Tahani that she wasn't supposed to be in the Good Place so it could last much longer.  And I wonder if seeing Eleanor as her soulmate, Tahani would have anymore freudian shorts.

I loved the three hour spoken jazz riff opera was enough to tip Eleanor off.  "There is no version of anyone's heaven with this!" plus we saw Janet on drums, Michael on bass and Vicki on the triangle, which she never got to play.  Eleanor seems to ruin Vicki's moments.

[shantown]

10 hours ago, DrScottie said:

It was Michael's first attempt and the bad events were because of Eleanor's actions and Jason's love for Ariana Grande was why "Break Free" was playing in the background during the original cataclysm
 

Actually, Eleanor mispronouncing Chidi's last name as "Ariana Grande" is what caused "Break Free" to be playing.

[Fukui San]

37 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Which is going to be Hell for everyone. Humans and demons alike.  Michael may have succeeded in creating a perfect hell....for everyone.  Himself included.

It will be fun to watch though.  Chidi rectify lying (because we know how much he loves lying).  Tahani and Jason keeping up with appearances.   I think the only one who might enjoy herself is Eleanor pitting her against Vicky.   Real Eleanor and Fake Eleanor take....whatever round they are on.

Although I don't really ship them I would love to see flashbacks of Eleanor and Tahani as soulmates.  I could see them fighting for weeks (making all Michael's shaningans happen)   and then one day their fight leads into angry sex only for Tahani to suddenly go into cuddly girlfriend mode and where Eleanor suddenly realizes "this is the bad place".

Lol. Tahani cuddles with Eleanor in bed, says "I love you". Eleanor's eyes pop open. "THIS is the Bad Place!"

[jumper sage]

While I love the actors and loved season 1, I am totally bored with season 2.  I want to like the show since it was the highlight of my week last year.  I loved comparing themes with great literature/ethics etc.

It just falls flat for me.

[CherithCutestory]

57 minutes ago, RainbowBrite said:

I'm starting to wonder how Michael's plan could ever work long-term either...I mean if they're told they're in the Good Place, why would there be a fountain of clam chowder? Why would they be unhappy? They will obviously begin to question it every time. I guess that issue has been resolved now as they start to work with Michael, but it really hit me in this episode just how flawed Michael's original plan was. The concept is great, but I can't imagine how he would execute it. The simple fact is that the Good Place would have to be good for it to be believable.

Well, Michael could just simply fail to understand humanity. Or there is more to it.

But I think his plan is perfect for Chidi and Tahani. Because they genuinely believe they are good people who deserve to be in the Good Place. Even the almond milk joke, which is hilarious, just brings home how much Chidi doesn't really understand his flaws or the mistakes he made in life. His mind goes to one random action. Not a series of life choices that hurt people and helped no one, including himself.

So, it would take a lot of torture for them to really come to terms with the truth without Eleanor prompting them. Because it means completely restructuring the way they view themselves. This has to be the Good Place. Or they aren't good people (not necessarily true but how they see it.) Any flaws in the place are just learning curves or someone else's fault because the alternative is just too terrible to contemplate. Or it's because Michael is well meaning but this is his first time and he got a few things a little off.

Basically the plan will work on them because denial is powerful.

And it's mostly perfect for Jason because he's too dumb to figure it out except 1 out of 800 times.

But the problem is none of that would ever work on Eleanor long term. Even if they didn't have the bit about her explicitly being in the wrong place, Eleanor knows she's sort of a dirtbag. When she woke up the very first time she asked with trepidation which place she was in. She knew it wasn't definite that she'd go to heaven. Mostly she even agrees she doesn't belong in the Good Place she just thinks she should be in a Medium Place.

It's not some total re-imagining of how she views herself to picture herself in the Bad Place. It doesn't shake her entire world to suddenly realize that she ended up in hell. She has nothing to be in denial about. This is obviously true because the premise is that she is a mistake. But even if that wasn't the premise it would be true.

So, of course, Eleanor is always going to figure it out. Every single time. Why the heck wouldn't she? She has no reason to pretend there isn't something off about heaven being so miserable. It doesn't invalidate every choice she ever made in life to admit that. Because she never thought her life choice were valid in the first place.

Edited September 29, 2017 by CherithCutestory

[clack]

56 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I love the argument you make, but at the end of the day don't agree with it. I feel like Michael Schur is saying a truth, from deep in himself: "There's nothing worse--nothing--not hot pokers in your eyes, not being stretched on the rack, nothing--than the hell that individual human consciousness creates for itself."

That's the human tragedy, which Schur adeptly turns into comedy. (He's far from the first, but has found a uniquely ingenious new way to do it.)

Michael (Danson)'s theory is sound, if only he could get the execution right. The devil is in the details.

But why does Michael need to reboot things every time that the 4 discover that they are really in the Bad Place? Wouldn't that knowledge add to their misery?

[Danny Franks]

3 minutes ago, Fukui San said:

Lol. Tahani cuddles with Eleanor in bed, says "I love you". Eleanor's eyes pop open. "THIS is the Bad Place!"

I don't think that would be Eleanor's reaction... just sayin'.

But I agree with those who say that this Bad Place doesn't really seem that bad. Perhaps we'll find out that Michael's secret motivation is that he actually does like humans, and wants to make things less crappy and torture-filled for them. That if he can sell his bosses on the Bad Place being the Place of Mild Inconvenience and Frustration That Is Otherwise Pretty Great, he can improve the lot of all humans who die.

[DrScottie]

53 minutes ago, shantown said:

Actually, Eleanor mispronouncing Chidi's last name as "Ariana Grande" is what caused "Break Free" to be playing.

I had gotten confused because of how Jason feels about her, but you're right. He was wearing the shirt that everyone else was wearing during that moment.  It was Eleanor's fault.

Edited September 29, 2017 by DrScottie

[arc]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

Maybe it is a few years, but you have to remember - it's a few years within a span of eternity.  So Shawn showing up to check in on things would be like your boss checking in with you on the first day of a project at, say 9:17am.

Given that Attempt #1 collapsed on Michael right in front of Shawn within a few months though, Shawn would have every reason to think Attempt #2 was similarly fragile.

2 hours ago, Amarsir said:

Since Mindy is both real and external, that does present a couple questions. As @arc wondered, what happens if they try escaping to a real Good Place? But also, what was the deal with Trevor and the Bad Place that he represented? How many times has he been involved, and is he cool with resets too? 

Mindy and the Medium Place being real means Trevor is a real Bad Place representative. He was probably not lying about his own Bad Place neighborhood. But yes, I doubt he could have been involved in any of attempts 2-802 for the reason you mention.

Y’know, the first season finale laid out Michael’s elegant dream of a Bad Place where the damned torture each other: a perpetual motion hell. But from the second season premiere to now, it seems like he didn’t factor in that Bad Place demons like being hands-on. Architects like Michael might just care about how the damned suffer, but demons like Chuck actually want to bite and twist.

[Milburn Stone]

11 minutes ago, clack said:

But why does Michael need to reboot things every time that the 4 discover that they are really in the Bad Place? Wouldn't that knowledge add to their misery?

Another good point, but maybe (this is getting deep now) man's awareness of the true source of his misery is a step toward relieving it (or, at the very least, accepting it), and that would defeat Michael's purpose.

[Chaos Theory]

18 minutes ago, clack said:

But why does Michael need to reboot things every time that the 4 discover that they are really in the Bad Place? Wouldn't that knowledge add to their misery?

Because both Chidi and Tahani BELIEVE they belong in the Good Place and therefore will torture themselves wondering why nothing feels right.  The experiment loses effectiveness if they realize they are in The Bad Place and why they are there.  Might as well just put them in a twisting machine and be done with it.    Knowledge wouldn't really add to the misery long term especially once either/both accept the truth they could just do what Eleanor does and attempt to be better or fight Michael.

[NJRadioGuy]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

I feel like Michael Schur is saying a truth, from deep in himself: "There's nothing worse--nothing--not hot pokers in your eyes, not being stretched on the rack, nothing--than the hell that individual human consciousness creates for itself."

I dunno, man. The ol' penis flattener would probably do it for me.

13 minutes ago, clack said:

But why does Michael need to reboot things every time that the 4 discover that they are really in the Bad Place? Wouldn't that knowledge add to their misery?

Maybe, maybe not. But rebooting randomly without a full memory wipe, for eternity, would be real torture. Leave fragments out here and there. Constantly forgetting vital crucial events from previous reboots that would be critical in the current timeline. Would make for crappy TV, of course, but that would be just awful.

What I don't get is why a special focus for just these four? None of them (well, maybe Elanor), were particularly deserving of the Bad Place, either new- or old-school.

The Twisting Department doesn't make a lot of sense. ReallyBadPerson gets twisted until he breaks in two. That's what, an hour or two? Ten? Then what? Reset without a mind wipe and off to the vat of acid?

[Danny Franks]

2 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Because both Chidi and Tahani BELIEVE they belong in the Good Place and therefore will torture themselves wondering why nothing feels right.  The experiment loses effectiveness if they realize they are in The Bad Place and why they are there.  Might as well just put them in a twisting machine and be done with it.    Knowledge wouldn't really add to the misery long term especially once either/both accept the truth they could just do what Eleanor does and attempt to be better or fight Michael.

That seems like something else Michael could change, though. Just drop things into the conversation like, 'throwing big charity events for your own personal enjoyment is a surefire way of getting into the Bad Place. It's good that you're so selfless, Tahani.' Sow the seeds.

Or even just go the whole hog, and give them the same story he does Eleanor, complete with the fake history of the 'real' Chidi or Tahani. It would be enough to cause some doubts, I think. I'd love to see a reset where either Chidi or Tahani end up thinking they're in the Good Place by mistake.

[clack]

21 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

Another good point, but maybe (this is getting deep now) man's awareness of the true source of his misery is a step toward relieving it (or, at the very least, accepting it), and that would defeat Michael's purpose.

Ok, I can buy this theory. Sometimes it is the hope of something better that is the more acute misery. Hopelessness we can get used to.

[Dowel Jones]

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

"Three hour spoken word jazz opera"?

A background cameo from Duke Silver would have the candle on the cake.

[DrScottie]

55 minutes ago, arc said:

Y’know, the first season finale laid out Michael’s elegant dream of a Bad Place where the damned torture each other: a perpetual motion hell. But from the second season premiere to now, it seems like he didn’t factor in that Bad Place demons like being hands-on. Architects like Michael might just care about how the damned suffer, but demons like Chuck actually want to bite and twist.

Also, for demons like Chris, he had no idea how to deal with Eleanor trying to confess to him. They know physical torture, not psychological. It's a tough role being the fake soulmate of one of the main humans, particularly the most perceptive one. 

2 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

A background cameo from Duke Silver would have been the candle on the cake.

Duke Silver is great, but wouldn't that imply Ron Swanson is dead? 

[mammaM]

1 hour ago, arc said:

 

Y’know, the first season finale laid out Michael’s elegant dream of a Bad Place where the damned torture each other: a perpetual motion hell. But from the second season premiere to now, it seems like he didn’t factor in that Bad Place demons like being hands-on. Architects like Michael might just care about how the damned suffer, but demons like Chuck actually want to bite and twist.

Or at least nibble on them when they're asleep.

[Lugal]

16 minutes ago, clack said:

Ok, I can buy this theory. Sometimes it is the hope of something better that is the more acute misery. Hopelessness we can get used to.

There was a reason hope was in Pandora's box with all the other evils.

I can see how Michael's idea would be a more effective torture.  For Tahani, they could twist her until she snaps in half, but to really make her miserable is to surround her with people saying how awesome her sister was.  She was a drunken mess within a few hours in attempt #2.

[NJRadioGuy]

6 minutes ago, mammaM said:

Or at least nibble on them when they're asleep.

I'd happily nibble on Elanor when she's asleep. Or Tahani. Just sayin'.

[Bruinsfan]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

But I agree with those who say that this Bad Place doesn't really seem that bad. Perhaps we'll find out that Michael's secret motivation is that he actually does like humans, and wants to make things less crappy and torture-filled for them. That if he can sell his bosses on the Bad Place being the Place of Mild Inconvenience and Frustration That Is Otherwise Pretty Great, he can improve the lot of all humans who die.

The point isn't to make a Bad Place that's worse for the humans, it's to make one that's more entertaining for the demons. In that Michael appears to have failed spectacularly, though I could see Fukui San's idea of an alternate pitch to them turning it into an endlessly varied theme park. Maybe in Hell stuff goes wrong for everyone, and the place tortures the demons as much as, if not more than, human beings?

I do think that in theory a subtle, psychological Hell could turn out to be more tormenting than one based on physical suffering in the long run. People can learn to cope with any amount of physical agony given enough time to get used to it, but we still angst over stupid things we said and did as kids that no one else even remembers.

[ashleylm]

Can someone explain "Biscotti Pippen" to me?  I get the joke/reference for all the other restaurant names, but this one is sailing past me.  (So, it's probably a sports reference, like if there were a Scott Pippen who plays baseball ... I don't know sports.)  Thx in advance!

[NJRadioGuy]

2 minutes ago, ashleylm said:

Can someone explain "Biscotti Pippen" to me?  I get the joke/reference for all the other restaurant names, but this one is sailing past me.  (So, it's probably a sports reference, like if there were a Scott Pippen who plays baseball ... I don't know sports.)  Thx in advance!

Basketball.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottie_Pippen

[Danny Franks]

Just now, Bruinsfan said:

The point isn't to make a Bad Place that's worse for the humans, it's to make one that's more entertaining for the demons. In that Michael appears to have failed spectacularly, though I could see Fukui San's idea of an alternate pitch to them turning it into an endlessly varied theme park. Maybe in Hell stuff goes wrong for everyone, and the place tortures the demons as much as, if not more than, human beings?

I do think that in theory a subtle, psychological Hell could turn out to be more tormenting than one based on physical suffering in the long run. People can learn to cope with any amount of physical agony given enough time to get used to it, but we still angst over stupid things we said and did as kids that no one else even remembers.

I know it's not to make it worse for the humans, but the point is, Michael is making it much, much better for them. Because... no four headed flying bears, no pokers or fire or food that turns into spiders in your mouth. So his rationale of making things more interesting for the demons would actually be a good pretext for a true desire to help humans. I'm not saying that's what he's doing, but it could work if the writers chose.

To be honest, I simply don't buy that 'hell is other people' or 'hell is your own subconscious' are worse than being tortured. Because getting used to constant, agonising torture by demons is one thing, but being more comfortable with that than you are remembering an embarrassing thing you did as a kid just doesn't make sense to me.

[tennisgurl]

Oh my God, Tahani was totally Eleanor's soulmate one time! Can we try that again, please?!?!

This is so much fun, I am truly amazed at how much is going on, and how many crazy turns the plot is giving us already. We go through 100s of attempts at making the gang suffer, only for it to end with Michael teaming up with the gang to stop the rest of the demons from striking! 

I think Michael's rational is that this is a more creative way to torture people, and can use peoples own flaws to hurt them, which would make their suffering last longer. Its more fun for the demons, and its more awful for the humans. He has all knowledge of the humans, so it seems like a waste to just torture them. Or, maybe Michael wants to turn The Bad Place into a more ironic hell type, like in Greek mythology, where evil people are tortured in specially created hells based on what they did to deserve hell in the first place. 

Oh my God, when Jason was the one to figure it out, I died. "Oh, this one hurts. This hurts a lot." 

[Tetraneutron]

10 hours ago, Miles said:

That's a good point. The last time they didn't try because they thought they were already in the good place, but now. I'm just going to assume that they did try at some point and the good place wouldn't let them in.

That would be a cool idea for the future. So far we've heard a ton about how the bad place tortures people but we don't know much about the real good place. It would be fun to see but I bet really hard to write and make funny. It does make sense that Eleanor wouldn't try to escape there. She wants to escape hell, and Michael. Escaping hell AND breaking into heaven? Way harder. Not the kind of thing you think to do when you're in a hurry and just need to get out. I don't think they want to draw attention to themselves. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

The interesting thing to me is that it seems like Janet was the cause behind Chidi and Eleanor being reunited each time. And Chidi and Eleanor being together will always lead to growth (for both) and recognition.

That's a good point. The thing I started wondering is why Michael even has a Janet in the first place. She isn't "in on" the gag - she thinks it's the Good Place too, apparently. If the point is to torture these four people, why provide them with someone who can give them things they really want? 

It's also weird that Eleanor and Jason both think (initially, until they figure it out) they've been accidentally sent to the Good Place, whereas Tahani and Chidi both think they belong in the Good Place. I'm not sure why two think one thing and two think another but they've all been thrown together in the same scenario.

Assuming they're all dead and can't come back to life, it seems like their best bet is to stay in the Medium Place (or whatever it's called - Middle Place?) Have we established whether or not Michael can come for them there?

And yeah . . . should we just assume Trevor and Bad Janet back in Season 1 were other demons and part of Michael's plot?

[DEM]

20 hours ago, arc said:

I couldn’t read all the plans they came up with at Mindy’s

• Physically Attack Michael
• Stab with Small Knife
• Find Michael's Boss, Blackmail, Drug Him
• Seduce Michael
• Throw Tahani Under the Bus
• Stab with Large Knife
• Make Michael Think He's the One in TBP
• Indecent Proposal Him
• Shawshank Our Way Out
• Try to Stuff Michael Back in His Magic Lamp
• Find Ray Donovan But an Angel
• Catch That Magic Panda, Use Her Powers
• Eleanor Turn Self In
• Find Doug Forcett

Edited September 29, 2017 by DEM

[Dots And Stripes]

20 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

That's a good point. The thing I started wondering is why Michael even has a Janet in the first place. She isn't "in on" the gag - she thinks it's the Good Place too, apparently. If the point is to torture these four people, why provide them with someone who can give them things they really want? 

It's also weird that Eleanor and Jason both think (initially, until they figure it out) they've been accidentally sent to the Good Place, whereas Tahani and Chidi both think they belong in the Good Place. I'm not sure why two think one thing and two think another but they've all been thrown together in the same scenario.

Assuming they're all dead and can't come back to life, it seems like their best bet is to stay in the Medium Place (or whatever it's called - Middle Place?) Have we established whether or not Michael can come for them there?

And yeah . . . should we just assume Trevor and Bad Janet back in Season 1 were other demons and part of Michael's plot?

Eleanor and Jason think they don’t belong because Michael pretends to not know who they really are. He pretends Eleanor is a lawyer who loves clowns and Jason is a Buddhist monk. They both know those personas are wrong. Michael does play identity games like that with Chidi and Tahani.

Mindy basically tells them to stay in the Medium place the first time we meet her. Eleanor keeps going back anyway, usually because some of her friends are still there.

Trevor is a real architect. We know that from Mindy’s video. I’m pretty sure he’s in on the plot, trying to help Michael after Eleanor confessed in the first scenario.

[possibilities]

4 hours ago, Fukui San said:

The furthest we are shown in the intended scenario is when they must make a decision for someone to go to the bad place. I have no idea how he intended to go from there.
 

I think they were supposed to feel guilty for betraying one of their own, and the guilt was supposed to torture them. But I also think he didn't plan for them to figure it out in the first place. Really, Michael's plan in not very good, which is why it keeps failing. There has to be more to his story than what we know, because clearly he's incompetent, and Shawn hates him.

 

2 hours ago, arc said:

Y’know, the first season finale laid out Michael’s elegant dream of a Bad Place where the damned torture each other: a perpetual motion hell. But from the second season premiere to now, it seems like he didn’t factor in that Bad Place demons like being hands-on. Architects like Michael might just care about how the damned suffer, but demons like Chuck actually want to bite and twist.

Maybe Michael sold the idea for his own reasons, but Shawn bought it because if it worked it would be an effective way to downsize the demon workforce. Or maybe Shawn thought it might be a good way to torture the demons by making them do jobs they hate forever?

Edited September 29, 2017 by possibilities

[AlleC17]

14 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

So how many tries was "The 2nd Attempt."  

I was rather surprised at how quickly things unraveled for Michael but then again not really.  Each attempt showed no matter how he changed things certain trends still happened.  Eleanor still searched out Chidi and despite themselves the group became friends and ultimately Eleanor (and in the ultimate low point for Michael Jason) figured out that they were in the Bad Place.  

One day Mindy will get her cocaine.  I just know it.   I am not sure I ship Eleanor and Chidi but watching them in bed together and watching Eleanor reaction and Mindy telling her that they have known each other for a long time makes for an interesting pairing.  How long have they known each other?  

It was quick for us to see, but Mindy did tell Eleanor that they all have been in the Bad Place a long time.  This show is a delight so far this season.  I loved season 1, but this has been even better.  I really love the idea of the 4 humans working with Michael rather than against him.   Should be fun! 

[Panopticon]

Lasagne Come Out Tomorrow.

I don't know whether to send a fan letter to the writing staff or drown myself in a clam chowder fountain so I can forget ever reading that.

[The Companion]

9 hours ago, arc said:

They'd need a new trick because (as per the end of the season premiere) Michael now knows that one and checks for it. Except when he's being sloppy, like forgetting to close the door before Eleanor's orientation starts.

If you like the food puns, check out Megan Amran's abridged list of what she handed in with her first draft.

I now want to open a restaurant just to use one of those names. 

 

This episode was hilarious. The writing on this show remains so tight and the visual gags really work. The clam chowder fountain was hilarious (and so gross). I hope nothing bad happened to the Golden Retriever (like being kicked into the sun).

[Mabinogia]

I need to rewatch because I can't remember all the thing Eleanor called the clam chowder fountain. There was one, something about ocean water with fish croutons that had me rolling.

I just adore everything about this show. The cast is perfect, the writing is on pointe, the sets are beautiful. I love it all.

I really hope my eternal soul mate is a corgi.  

[Chaos Theory]

What other show has you hoping a character finally gets their  cocaine?  

[LoneHaranguer]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

The thing I started wondering is why Michael even has a Janet in the first place. She isn't "in on" the gag - she thinks it's the Good Place too, apparently. If the point is to torture these four people, why provide them with someone who can give them things they really want? 

I think the answer is in the saying "be careful what you wish for". Michael's expectation is that they won't, so he stole a Janet from the Good Place to add to the illusion and the torture. Not sure if I know why a good Janet would have her powers in the Bad Place if she doesn't in the Medium Place.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, DrScottie said:

Duke Silver is great, but wouldn't that imply Ron Swanson is dead? 

At least 800+ versions, some of which went on for more than a hundred days... the LOW end of how long they've been there now is a decade; it could just as easily be a century or more and everyone alive when they were would also be dead. For all we know, there could have been a backlog of damned souls and they all sat in timeless Limbo for a quadrillion quadrillion years and the Heat Death of the Universe is but a distant echo in eternity.

Time is utterly irrelevant in the context of this show.

But in the lines of Ron Swanson, once you've established its been a hundred years or more on Earth then EVERYONE our main characters have ever met is somewhere in the afterlife and are all available to show up in the series at some point. Would it really shock Eleanor if she traveled to another Bad Place at some point and found her parents being forced to live in the same house with no exit for all eternity?