S07.E05: Eastwatch

[Ottis]

57 minutes ago, Dobian said:

The whole capture a white walker plan makes no sense.  Just fly a dragon up there, snatch a handful of them in it's big claws and roast a few hundred in a flaming swath for good measure before flying home.  Duh. 

Bronn and Jamie surface a half a mile from where they fell in the water.  Aquaman must have helped them.

You were hung up on the same two points I was. I don't think the dragon even has to roast any walkers. Go to the back of the walker army, grab a few and take off, avoiding conflict. It's recon, not a battle.

 

53 minutes ago, Traveller519 said:

What I loved about the Sam and Gilly scene is that it wasn't a Whammy "A-ha" scene like many other shows would have done. Sam didn't perk-up with a "Wait, what did you say? Who's Marriage?" It was more true to how people normally act when they're frustrated and angry with something (work) and trying to placate their partner who is innocent of all those feelings with some "active listening." I'm sure we'll get back to the legitimized talk soon enough.

YMMV, I found it extremely annoying that Sam, the guy with the brains, didn't notice. Now we have to wait who knows how long for someone to put it together. Ugh.

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

She's not turning to the dark side and she's not a tyrant.  She gave the Tarlys a choice and they made it.  This is the middle ages in Westeros, and Varys and Tyrion's 21st century politically correct counsel doesn't cut it when a show of force is necessary.  This display of power was for the benefit of captured soldiers to get them in line, it's not like she's doing this to civilians and she doesn't want to do this to civilians.

I think she very much is turning to the dark side. She has already been shown as impetuous and emotional. Now that she is settling into her ruler mode, there is less of that but more of the certainty that she is always right. Her bloodline contains madness. I think it is her downfall later, in favor of Jon, whose bloodline was more genetically varied.

All that said, I'm really digging this season. So many parts coming together.

[meep.meep]

37 minutes ago, paigow said:

Jon can only trust Tormund & Gendry. Jorah is jealous of Jon...Tormund wants to kill Jorah...Gendry wants to kill Thoros & Beric...Jon is wary of The Hound....Now this happy group is going off to Skull Island searching for King Kong to display in Times Square, Kings Landing...

And all I can think is:  Hats, gentlemen!  Hats!

They'll be dead in an hour.

Cercei better not screw with Bronn.

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 hours ago, maydaymayday said:

Cercei cannot be pregnant.  It is not in the  prophecy. Either she is wrong/lying or she dies before its born.

The prophecy can be incorrect or correct from a certain point of view. It said that she would have 3 children. If we are to believe Cersei, she and Robert had a child that was either stillborn or died shortly after birth. And of course, Cercei could be pregnant now and either have an abortion equivalent, a miscarriage or be killed in the future.

8 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

I don't remember anyone saying that Dany is sterile now. I'm not saying it didn't happen; I just don't remember it. And Jon died and was brought back to life, how does he still have active swimmers now?

Of course, I'm asking a show with ice zombies and dragons to make sense...

When Dani tried to revive Drogo back in S1, as part of the price for the blood magic, Dani miscarried her baby as some sort of monstrous scaly thing.  Dani asked the witch about whether she could have children. The witch said something along the lines of "when the sun rises in the west and the mountains crumble to dust." So if we are to take the witch at her word, Dani is barren. Of course, it could be the witch was lying or wrong, or something other magic will make Dani fertile again. 

 

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

The whole capture a white walker plan makes no sense.  Just fly a dragon up there, snatch a handful of them in it's big claws and roast a few hundred in a flaming swath for good measure before flying home.  Duh. 

...

She's not turning to the dark side and she's not a tyrant.  She gave the Tarlys a choice and they made it.  This is the middle ages in Westeros, and Varys and Tyrion's 21st century politically correct counsel doesn't cut it when a show of force is necessary.  This display of power was for the benefit of captured soldiers to get them in line, it's not like she's doing this to civilians and she doesn't want to do this to civilians.

Dani doesn't yet believe the White Walkers/Army of the Dead are real. So she's not willing to go north herself, and it does not seem at this point that she can have the dragons reliably act independent of her. 

As far as we've seen in Westeros, the norm is to keep highborn people alive as hostages and prisoners when feasible, and to afford them some measure of treatment befitting their status. For instance, the Starks held Jaimie for whatever length of time. So departing from that norm should seem shocking. 

[Dobian]

So Sam can lay claim now as the lord of House Tarly?  And declare war on Dany for barbecuing his dad and his brother.  Well, no, he didn't particularly get along with them and he'd much rather play house with Gilly in a nice big castle.

[DrSpaceman73]

we have seen numerous characters summarily executed for being outspoken against a ruler or not following their command, so I didn't find it shocking she killed the Tarly's.  Jon Snow killed a man of the night's watch for refusing a command from him as the head of the watch. 

The manner she did it was the shocking part. 

Is this a 7 episode season?  If so then next episode should be the most exciting, typically how it has been, episode 8/9 is full of action and calms down in the finally. 

I also don't understand how they plan to catch a white walker and bring it back either.  Seems convoluted and difficult. 

Gendy is back!! Love him and the hammer, like Thor of Westeros.  I kept thinking with those two guards the Onion knight was arguing with, just use the hammer!! 

Also rewatching episode 9 season 5, this was the second time one of the dragons was hit with arrows.  The people that prompted the civil war in Mereen after Dany arrived attacked her in the arena and the dragon saved her, got hit with some arrows then too, though just by hand, not with the dragon killing thing.  I think it was Drogon both times.

3 minutes ago, Dobian said:

So Sam can lay claim now as the lord of House Tarly?  And declare war on Dany for barbecuing his dad and his brother.  Well, no, he didn't particularly get along with them and he'd much rather play house with Gilly in a nice big castle.

Yes I kept thinking this as well.  For what its worth, Sam is now the head of House Tarly and can declare its allegiance with whoever.  I assume he would align with Dany. 

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Chinspinner said:

 

The intention of the writer's is clear. 

Not clear to you because in an interview with EW, the writer of the episode stated:

“At least Dany offers them a choice. Every conqueror offers the choice of ‘bend the knee or die.’ These lords disobeyed her and disrespected her in rebellion against the rightful queen. Then she gives them a way out and they don’t take it. Her deal wasn’t even ‘I’ll let you live.’ They could have kept all their titles and land. So, yes, in one way, it’s a horrible death. On the other hand, they kind of asked for it. It’s a win-win situation and they somehow managed to find the ‘lose’ in that.”

http://ew.com/tv/2017/08/13/game-of-thrones-eastwatch/

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, Giselle said:

If she ever sees one I think Cersei is BSC enough to briefly entertain the idea of being able to use the White Walkers to secure her throne. Sir Gregor's remains remain useful to her.

Yeah, Cersei is a level of crazy that would try to use the WW to kill her enemies. The WW aren't her enemies. They aren't after her thrown. lol

 

Dany has tried listening to Tyrion's "don't kill my family" strategy and it didn't work. Now she's heeding Oleana's "be a dragon" strategy. I'd say it's working a bit better. She gave the soldiers a choice. Two of them chose death. The rest realized she's serious and bent the knee. A good portion of them didn't until she roasted the Tarlys. Killed two to save however many more there were. Sounds reasonable. This is war. People are going to die. At least Dany is killing her actual enemies, the people who are at war with her. Cercei is pretty much killing anyone she finds "in her way". She's seconds away from stabbing children in the street if they dare walk across her path. Team Dany on this one.

I am curious to see how she reacts if Jon is declared the rightful Targ heir. I'm not sure how she will yet because I think a huge part of her "I must take the throne" is because she thinks she's the last of her kind and she kind of feels like she has to avenge the family name. But she would loose her sense of purpose. Hopefully someone *cough*Jorah*cough* could point out that she can do far more good and is far more needed in Essos and that that is her home now. Hell, she might see how fucked in the head the people of Westros are and decide this place isn't worth conquering. lol

[Absurda]

Wow, so much to unpack this episode.

I don't blame Sam for not pinging on the annulment. At this point it's irrelevant to him and he was stewing on his frustration more than listening

I do sort of enjoy the possibility that Lyanna went with Rhegar willingly. The whole reason behind the rebellion against the Targaryns was due to the kidnapping and rape of Robert's intended. It would be ironic if she never wanted to marry Robert and left of her own will. I wonder if that's what she whispered to Ned before she died.

I love seeing the group going after the whitewalkers, it should be fun. Of course, every time I see someone go NOTW it bugs the crap out of me that they leave their heads, faces and, often, hands exposed. I understand, from a cinematic POV why they need to do that, but it's annoying. Bran and Meera always had their heads and faces exposed and it annoyed me no end.

I don't see hypocrisy in Tyrion not caring about the gold cloaks. As others have pointed out, there's a difference between an unarmed, captured enemy and armed guards. If I recall Davos did tell them to just walk away, so they had that choice. Additionally, Tyrion didn't want anyone to know he was there (he couldn't know that Cersei knew anyway). Two dead gold cloaks say something happened. Two live gold cloaks can say it was Tryion specifically. This wasn't a friendly visit but spy-type stuff. Sometimes witnesses need to be killed in spy-type stuff.

Shout out to Davos for coming prepared with the fermented crab. Also loved his comment about thinking Gendry was still out there rowing somewhere

I don't think the Varys/Tyrion hand wringing had to do with the death of Tarly so much as the optics of having the current and future house leaders flambeed by dragon fire (someone else up thread, sorry can't remember who, talked about the optics as well). It's like Dany is living up to (or down to) Westeros's worst expectations of her. The whole kneel or die thing was tone deaf in comparison to what she'd said before that. It think she's behaving (mostly) in line with othe Westerosi rulers, but the whole selling point that Tyrion and others have pushed is that she's different, a better choice, not more of the same.

[BitterApple]

15 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

 

Gendy is back!! Love him and the hammer, like Thor of Westeros.  I kept thinking with those two guards the Onion knight was arguing with, just use the hammer!! 

 

My favorite part was when Davos was creating this convoluted back story for Gendry, and Gendry's all like "Whatev, hey Jon, nice to meet you, I'm a Baratheon."

Regarding the Lannister guards, I don't think there was any way they could've spared them. Gendry is a strong guy, but Davos is old and Tyrion's a dwarf. I don't think they could've overpowered, bound and gagged two armed soldiers. They were in a time crunch and couldn't waste precious minutes screwing around. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by BitterApple

[Tyro49]

Did you see the look on Jamie's face when Cirsei mentioned "punishing" Bronn?

Jamie is pretty shaken up by the battle: dragons and Dothraki, we can't fight them! Did the mercenaries of Essos ever actually fight the Dothraki, or just each other and city guards?

Jon is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, the one he doesn't want.

I am so sick of LF!

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I'm not sure if the show is trying to portray Dany as a tyrant or not but given the polarizing view fans are taking I guess they could be?

I'll start worrying about Danny becoming her father when I see glee in her face at burning people alive. I don't see joy, I don't see her doing it for sport. She clearly still has a heart, but this is war, and she made an example of two disrespectful captors. If she were really evil, mad, and over the edge, she just would have burned the rest of the men for sport and not even stand up there giving them a speech on their choices. Dear Lady Oleanna told her to cut the shit and start acting like what she is, a dragon. So on this leg of the war, that is what she did, she acted like a dragon and sent a message that she's not playing around.

Tyrion is starting to bug me, his loyalty is questionable because he still feels tied to his family in particular his brother. I don't blame him for that, but I certainly don't blame Danny for side eyeing him either. 

On another note, good lord does Danny want Jon or what...the girl got a lump in her throat when Jon said he was leaving to go over the wall.  She was trying to make him stay, by saying something to the effect of she hasn't released him. 

Littlefinger's days are numbered and Sansa will be the one to call him on his shit and Arya will then take that same knife that LF gave to Bran and kill him  with it. He's taught Sansa a lot about fighting wars and fighting them from all sides and I think we'll see very soon how good of student she is. And I don't think Arya will be in on it, she'll actually think that Sansa has turned against her, that she and her sister are on opposing sides. LF will think that his plan has worked, up until that moment that all is revealed. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Jersey Guy 87]

3 hours ago, doram said:

Well isn't that the same thing with Dany? How long is she going to live if she lets her enemies live in open defiance of her? You can also argue that Tyrion or Gendry could have given those Gold cloaks a choice - "your lives or your silence". At least Dany did that much.

Also - kneecaps. 

I'm totally okay with Dany's choice to use her dragon.  I'm just surprised Tyrion was surprised and thought it the wrong course of action.  He didn't offer any alternatives (keep them as hostages, for example).

As for the gold cloaks, there really wasn't time to communicate between Tyrion, Gendry and Davos.  You see a potential problem (gold cloaks alert others), you solve it (Gendry caves their skulls in with his hammer).  Breaking their kneecaps would have undoubtedly resulted in far too much noise.

[MrWhyt]

36 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

we have seen numerous characters summarily executed for being outspoken against a ruler or not following their command, so I didn't find it shocking she killed the Tarly's.  Jon Snow killed a man of the night's watch for refusing a command from him as the head of the watch. 

The manner she did it was the shocking part. 

Is this a 7 episode season?  If so then next episode should be the most exciting, typically how it has been, episode 8/9 is full of action and calms down in the finally. 

I also don't understand how they plan to catch a white walker and bring it back either.  Seems convoluted and difficult. 

Gendy is back!! Love him and the hammer, like Thor of Westeros.  I kept thinking with those two guards the Onion knight was arguing with, just use the hammer!! 

Also rewatching episode 9 season 5, this was the second time one of the dragons was hit with arrows.  The people that prompted the civil war in Mereen after Dany arrived attacked her in the arena and the dragon saved her, got hit with some arrows then too, though just by hand, not with the dragon killing thing.  I think it was Drogon both times.

Yes I kept thinking this as well.  For what its worth, Sam is now the head of House Tarly and can declare its allegiance with whoever.  I assume he would align with Dany. 

No, Sam is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch. He shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children, among other things, until his death.

[enoughcats]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

Now we have to wait who knows how long

Who knows?  the writers and show runners and bean counters and they're keeping Westeros time a deep, dark secret.

[izabella]

30 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

No, Sam is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch. He shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children, among other things, until his death.

What are Gilly and Sam at this point?  Living in sin?  Married?  Dating?  Are they living like brother and sister?  I'm so confused.

Edited August 14, 2017 by izabella

[taanja]

OMG! I knew it! We've had "Jon Snow is a bastard" told to us in every ep so far this season but he isn't! Haha! And Sam was too busy talking over Gilly to hear what she was saying. I sure hope that is one of the books they stole. Oh and Jon petting the dragon was awesome! Big fat love.

I was afraid for Arya. Or I am afraid. Cuz Littlefinger is a sneaky bastard. I like his character-- all snide looks and twirling mustache but...umm.. NO! No killing Arya! I want her to be the death of him.

What was up with that Sansa and Arya exchange? Does Sansa want to be THE QUEEN? Hm? She never came across as smart enough to survive the game but hey! maybe I've underestimated her? 

The Hound! I love you puppy! I am looking forward to a Hound and Arya reunion. And Haha! Gendry has stopped rowing and was in King's Landing all the time. I look forward to his reunion with Arya too. <<< *** Disclaimer>>>*** that is , of course, unless they all die! die! die! Then no reunions for me.

[herbaltease]

I think we may find out why Jon was resurrected with this second NOTW storyline.  It'd be an interesting twist if he were unaffected by nightwalkers.

Meanwhile, where's Theon and the rest of the Ironborn?  Are they getting Yara back this season?  Hope they can rescue Ellaria along with her.

[SoothingDave]

2 minutes ago, izabella said:

What are Gilly and Sam at this point?  Living in sin?  Married?  Dating?  Are they living like brother and sister?  I'm so confused.

And what income are they living on?  Maesters aren't supposed to have wives or children either.  

[DrSpaceman73]

38 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

No, Sam is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch. He shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children, among other things, until his death.

Is he still considered part of the Night's Watch when he was released to train to be a Maester? 

[SoothingDave]

1 minute ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Is he still considered part of the Night's Watch when he was released to train to be a Maester? 

Yes.  He was sent to be trained so he could return and be the maester at Castle Black.

[izabella]

1 minute ago, SoothingDave said:

Yes.  He was sent to be trained so he could return and be the maester at Castle Black.

So what was his problem now that he at least was allowed to spend his days reading?  He was bored? 

[ptuscadero]

Quote

At the same time, it's hard for me to feel much sympathy for Tyrion and Varys clutching their pearls about Dany killing people.

8 hours ago, doram said:

Tyrion wasn't clutching his pearls over Gendry bashing in the heads of those two gold cloaks. I guess their lives weren't as important as the Tarlys.

I don't think the pearl-clutching was so much about people being killed (in general) as it was about the impression that Dany was leaving her potential subjects by appearing to be just another tyrant. Remember, that's why she took the dragon into the battlefield, rather than incinerating innocent citizens, after consulting with her advisers. I think they were hoping for a more conciliatory overture by Dany, such as the approach she took with the Unsullied. Those soldiers love her because she not only freed them, she gave them the choice to follow her. 

[SoothingDave]

1 minute ago, izabella said:

So what was his problem now that he at least was allowed to spend his days reading?  He was bored? 

He wanted the fast track "hurry up and train me so I can go re-join Jon and fight the dead" program.  But they don't have that.  Only the "wax on, wax off, spend your time doing menial chores for several years before serious study begins" program.  

[Clanstarling]

25 minutes ago, izabella said:

What are Gilly and Sam at this point?  Living in sin?  Married?  Dating?  Are they living like brother and sister?  I'm so confused.

They are essentially living as man and wife from what I can tell - which, if I recall correctly, received a fairly severe penalty back before the war. But things are changing, and if the White Walker army is defeated, who knows, maybe formerly sworn men can opt out. Or perhaps just sworn men who are now the only living heirs of their houses, and who've discovered key information to help that defeat.

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Is he still considered part of the Night's Watch when he was released to train to be a Maester? 

He wasn't released, he was sent to be trained and then to return to the Wall. Yoren was a sworn brother who travelled the 7 kingdoms picking up recruits, he wasn't released from his vows, he was doing his duty somewhere other than the wall.

Edited August 14, 2017 by MrWhyt

[CeeBeeGee]

24 minutes ago, doram said:

There were so many more brutal ways Dany could have gone about things - she could have instigated a massacre, and "taken no prisoners" in that battle. She could have had each survivor rounded up and slaughtered. Instead, she gave them several chances to bend the knee.

Really, the Lannister army should be relieved Dany isn't following the Dark Ages template for surviving POWs, which was to slaughter all of them. They played for keeps back in those days.

[DrSpaceman73]

58 minutes ago, izabella said:

So what was his problem now that he at least was allowed to spend his days reading?  He was bored? 

Sam's problem and reason for leaving wasn't so much his lengthy training but the fact the Maesters were ignoring any and all calls for help in fighting the White Walkers and he knows its a threat that must be dealt with.  So he took the books that would help him the most and left. 

2 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Really, the Lannister army should be relieved Dany isn't following the Dark Ages template for surviving POWs, which was to slaughter all of them. They played for keeps back in those days.

Also what the Dothraki did, it seems, when they won battles under their prior leaders.

[Cyranetta]

Quote

I really wish Jon had brought Ghost with him.  He'd be very useful hunting the dead beyond the Wall, but mostly so we could have seen a "I let you pet mine - can I pet yours?" scene.

Of course that scenario would be cut short quickly, since Drogon would likely just make a quick snack of Ghost.

I loved Jon Snow's sense of tremulous wonder at the contact, and I wonder if his experience with Ghost was an additional factor to his supposed Targ bloodline. The dragon's eye action was a lovely bit of CGI, combining both approval and catlike reaction to stroking.

[AttackTurtle]

I don't think Sansa is doing anything wrong.  Jon left her in charge.  He didn't tell her to do things the way he would do them.  Furthermore, if all the northern houses had named Sansa Queen as opposed to Jon as King, I think Jon would've been happy to have that particular weight off his shoulders.  Arya just hasn't witnessed the crap that Sansa and Jon went thru to reclaim Winterfell and the North.....and all the other hell Sansa went thru.  I like Arya, but she doesn't really know Sansa.   

Further, I'm pretty confident Sansa will see right thru Little Finger.  She immediately questioned his motives for givingBran the dagger.   And I think at first she was thrown by the changes in Bran & Arya, but I bet she figures out a way to put their new talents to use for House Stark.

[Bec]

2 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

we have seen numerous characters summarily executed for being outspoken against a ruler or not following their command, so I didn't find it shocking she killed the Tarly's.  Jon Snow killed a man of the night's watch for refusing a command from him as the head of the watch. 

Right? And to expand on that with more details: 

when Jon first got the position as Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, he chopped Janos Slynt’s head off to make an example after he said “stick your order up your bastard arse”. Jon didn’t issue any warnings first, just went from zero to “bring me my sword”. Janos Slynt was begging for mercy, crying "I was wrong! You're the Lord Commander! We all serve you! I'm sorry!” - Jon chopped his head off anyway.

Dany might have let the Tarlys live if they cried “We were wrong! You’re our queen! We’re bending all the knees! Please don’t kill us!”
 

[Star Aristille]

19 hours ago, CatWarmer said:

Jon finally knows that Arya and Bran are alive.

That one surprised me.  I knew that Jon had no way of knowing about Arya, but I find it odd that Sansa didn't tell him about Bran, whom she'd been told by Theon that he was alive.

[Chicago Redshirt]

18 hours ago, maydaymayday said:

Cercei cannot be pregnant.  It is not in the  prophecy. Either she is wrong/lying or she dies before its born.

The prophecy can be incorrect or correct from a certain point of view. It said that she would have 3 children. If we are to believe Cersei, she and Robert had a child that was either stillborn or died shortly after birth. And of course, Cercei could be pregnant now and either have an abortion equivalent, a miscarriage or be killed in the future.

11 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

I don't remember anyone saying that Dany is sterile now. I'm not saying it didn't happen; I just don't remember it. And Jon died and was brought back to life, how does he still have active swimmers now?

Of course, I'm asking a show with ice zombies and dragons to make sense...

When Dani tried to revive Drogo back in S1, as part of the price for the blood magic, Dani miscarried her baby as some sort of monstrous scaly thing.  Dani asked the witch about whether she could have children. The witch said something along the lines of "when the sun rises in the west and the mountains crumble to dust." So if we are to take the witch at her word, Dani is barren. Of course, it could be the witch was lying or wrong, or something other magic will make Dani fertile again. 

 

4 hours ago, Dobian said:

The whole capture a white walker plan makes no sense.  Just fly a dragon up there, snatch a handful of them in it's big claws and roast a few hundred in a flaming swath for good measure before flying home.  Duh. 

...

She's not turning to the dark side and she's not a tyrant.  She gave the Tarlys a choice and they made it.  This is the middle ages in Westeros, and Varys and Tyrion's 21st century politically correct counsel doesn't cut it when a show of force is necessary.  This display of power was for the benefit of captured soldiers to get them in line, it's not like she's doing this to civilians and she doesn't want to do this to civilians.

Dani doesn't yet believe the White Walkers/Army of the Dead are real. So she's not willing to go north herself, and it does not seem at this point that she can have the dragons reliably act independent of her. 

As far as we've seen in Westeros, the norm is to keep highborn people alive as hostages and prisoners when feasible, and to afford them some measure of treatment befitting their status. For instance, the Starks held Jaimie for whatever length of time. So departing from that norm should seem shocking. 

On another front, I'm not sure what it means to have rando member of the Tarly or Lannister army bend the knee.  Like if Randyll Tarly or Kevan Lannister does, they are pledging their men, lands, etc. to the ruler, and if they ever break that oath, they (or their heirs) can be tracked down and punished. But if Gyorge Smallfolke pledges loyalty, a) what extra does it get Dany, b) how far can that knee-bending be trusted and c) what can Dany do to punish them if they desert or rebel?

[Star Aristille]

19 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Props to the Tarlys for going out like champs

How, exactly, was that going out like champs?  Turning down your one chance at living isn't going out like a champ at all.

[SimoneS]

34 minutes ago, Bec said:

Right? And to expand on that with more details: 

when Jon first got the position as Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, he chopped Janos Slynt’s head off to make an example after he said “stick your order up your bastard arse”. Jon didn’t issue any warnings first, just went from zero to “bring me my sword”. Janos Slynt was begging for mercy, crying "I was wrong! You're the Lord Commander! We all serve you! I'm sorry!” - Jon chopped his head off anyway.

Dany might have let the Tarlys live if they cried “We were wrong! You’re our queen! We’re bending all the knees! Please don’t kill us!”
 

I don't even remember any posters here crying or wringing their hands over Janos Slynt's execution, not that there are many crying over the Tarlys. However, for some folks there is selective memory when it comes to condemning Dany for the same acts that men do.

Edited August 14, 2017 by SimoneS

[Absurda]

Sansa knew that Bran hadn't been killed by Theon, but neither she nor Jon knew (for sure) that he was still alive. I think for the Stark kids it's "assume they are dead unless proven otherwise."

[Mabinogia]

35 minutes ago, Star Aristille said:

19 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Props to the Tarlys for going out like champs

How, exactly, was that going out like champs?  Turning down your one chance at living isn't going out like a champ at all.

Oleanna went out like a champ. The Tarlys went out like morons. If they were champs, one they wouldn't have been captured, and two they would have bent the knee, found out what was going on over at Dragonstone then tried to escape to give intel to their beloved sadist Queen Cercei. Instead they stood there like idiots and said, yes, please kill us, we are pretty useless.

If Dany hadn't fried them she might as well have packed up her dragons and headed back to Essos because she won't win this war if she doesn't crisp a lot of Lannister soldiers. Or just torch the fucking Keep with Cersei and her pathetic lapdog Jaime and tell Tyrion that if he doesn't like it he can go stand in front of Drogon for just a sec, while she says the magic word. (yes, I've about had it with all the Lannisters)

[markx]

20 hours ago, Couver said:

Dany gave those men present a choice.

"Work for me or die" isn't a choice, we call that slavery. I'm sure the other masters justified their enslavement of captured prisoners in the same way.

Arguing that there are worse people doesn't make someone good - and it's the hypocrisy that stands out. If anything, they didn't question her enough - they worried that burning prisoners alive doesn't make a good impression, but didn't call her out on her new slave army.

[markx]

She required at least bending of the knee, so it was more then that. A fair point that that doesn't necessarily require any action, so I may have misinterpreted that. But if they're losers she doesn't need, she shouldn't need bending of knees.

"She wasn't even stripping them of their lands and titles or holdfasts"

We can put this in the arguing that other people are worse category.

I think you're arguing something different to what people are talking about - sure, it might be tactically good to do what she was doing, it might be that being good doesn't work well for people in this world. But that doesn't mean that someone can also claim to be the saviour, breaker of chains, or redefine words like "choice". Do it or die isn't a choice. The lannisters aren't doing great now either - though if they were, no one would be justifying them because it made them better off.

I'd say Jon Snow wins the prize for "good" right now.

(Also I got the impression Tyrion was more concerned with it from a tactical point of view - the impression it would make - than her hypocrisy; this is why he wasn't concerned about guards - not that that was hypocrisy either.)

Edited August 15, 2017 by mdwh

[Kelda Feegle]

My sense of the Jorah/Jon thing was that Jorah recognised the developing feels between Jon and Dany and knows that Jon is the better match for her. Resigned to his friend zone status but wanting what's best for her which is an age appropriate, rank appropriate, man who he can respect. 

[Timetoread]

18 hours ago, FrancesL said:

Arya's comment to Sansa was unfair but I don't think that Arya realizes how much Sansa has changed over the years.

True.  And Arya wasn't there when Sansa insisted that Jon take the master bedroom but he gave it to her.  It wasn't a power grab on her part or a need to be grandiose.  Unlike Jon, she feels a true connection to the parents who once laid there and as far as both siblings knew, they were the last of the Starks.  Arya strolled in and was like "Of course you'd take the big bedroom, you brat."  Sansa has changed in many good ways.  Arya's changes aren't all good.

[Timetoread]

21 hours ago, Sentient Meat said:

Perhaps Arya was overly judgmental but why would the writers raise this point, if it meant nothing?

I'm hoping they are raising it as a red herring.  That the sisters, though inclined to touch on old dynamics, HAVE fundamentally changed.  Sansa disagrees with Jon on some issues and is vocal about it.  But she's never said one hard word against him.  Never sided or schemed against him either.    Old Sansa was both bratty and uppity and considered Jon at once a brother and a lesser - because he was a bastard, mirroring her mothers's abhorrent treatment of him.  New Sansa is loving, keeps him close, gives him props.  When she argues with him, it is out of concern.  She didn't want him to leave and go south - that's how she lost the rest of the men in her family.   Old Sansa may have lorded over little brother Bran, upon his return or resented him for his position.  New Sansa welcomed him warmly and immediately offered him the place of honor.  Point is, Sansa is not at all the same.  I think what we are about to see is Arya figuring this out and going after Baelish, not for the role he played in Ned's death, but for the role he played in the harm that came to Sansa.  She'll kill for the sister she always hated.  Interestingly enough, I have wondered if the reason the memory Bran zeroed in on was her wedding night rape was because what little is left of Bran is also reacting to what Baelish did to her.  I don't know, it might be wishful thinking, but I feel that this is leading up to the Stark children joining forces and being incredibly formidable.

[kieyra]

I've gotten so used to internet Sansa hate that I was dreading coming to the threads because I expected people to feel vindicated by Arya's accusations. Glad to see that's not the case. That said, not sure what to make of Arya's hostility. Are we supposed to assume they're acting out a bit of regressive sibling rivalry, or is this just to make it feel believable when Arya falls for Littlefinger's ploy? (Which I'm sure will involve Arya thinking Sansa is playing her own power game.)

Edited August 15, 2017 by kieyra

[BitterApple]

On a completely random note I saw a woman in Starbucks today with platinum, waist-length hair braided up in a Dany-do. It was crazy because usually that silvery-blonde hair looks like shit on most people, but she was killing it. I wish I could've taken a picture without looking like a crazed stalker.

Also, not sure if you guys participate in other forums, but avoid the GOT FB page. Assholes are posting spoilers about next week's episode left and right.

Edited August 15, 2017 by BitterApple

[Timetoread]

2 hours ago, mdwh said:

Arguing that there are worse people doesn't make someone good - and it's the hypocrisy that stands out. If anything, they didn't question her enough - they worried that burning prisoners alive doesn't make a good impression, but didn't call her out on her new slave army.

I don't find Dany to be a hypocrite at all.  Dany is not there to free the 7 Kingdoms, she is there to RULE them.  This was a plan she came up with when she was married to her gorgeous Dothraki husband.  On the way she freed the enslaved people who she came across - usually showing her disdain for the ruling classes.  As she freed them, she gave them the option to go be free or come with her.  They chose to come with her.  Now that she is back in Westeros, she is not on a slave freeing mission, she is fighting for the throne.  Dany has ALWAYS been royalty.  She was born a princess.  As Khaleesi she was a Dothraki queen - and Khal Drogo, who was more ambitious than most khals, wanted to seize on what she brought to the table  - to cross the sea.  The men who fight against her now and lose are not slaves, they are POW's and are frankly hers to kill.  She's being nice to allow them a choice of being part of the solution rather than the problem, nor is she interested in wasting her time and resources keeping live prisoners.  Turn them or burn them.  It's the choice I'd give.

Also, everybody is mad that she insisted Jon to bend the knee, but look at it from her perspective: there was no King in the North.  That is a made up title from a region that is rebelling against the Lannister rule.  Now that she is coming to overthrow the Lannisters and take ALL the kingdoms (not just the North), her idea was that she join the people who are already anti-Lannister (less people to fight/kill, more to fight/kill for her team).  But do not get it twisted, she isn't there to SHARE power with some unknown, democratically elected upstart.  She is there to CLAIM her throne based on her birthright and considerable resources.  Truth is that if she were the tyrant everyone is accusing her of being, she would have killed Jon where he stood.  Jon's lucky he's cute.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Timetoread

[Macbeth]

22 hours ago, CatWarmer said:

Sam is now the head of House Tarly (if you ignore that he took the Night's Watch oath) so is now the lord of at least some of those soldiers who just bent the knee to Daenerys.

 

Well as Sam is traveling through the kingdom with his girlfriend Gilly and her baby named after him, he himself has basically forgotten the Night's Watch oath.

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, doram said:

I think declaring Jon Snow - Murderer of 10-Year Old Boys - as "good" definitely falls under the "arguing that other people are worse" category.

If Jon's a murderer, what does that make Ollie?  Ollie was executed for a crime. He  participated in the murder of his LC because he disagreed with the LC's decision. Boo hoo. (Side bar: First, I doubt Ollie was 10. Second, being a child doesn't excuse his actions.) Ollie got what he deserved along with his fellow murderers. Actions. Consequences. End of story.

[MrsR]

Yeah he killed Ollie, but to be fair. Ollie did kill him. So that's a wash for me.

[Kelda Feegle]

I saw a couple of posters suggest that one of the dragons go and collect a white walker and it got me to thinking...  Would they actually be any use in the freezing wasteland?  Surely their metabolism is similar to reptiles which would slow down in the cold? Any show lore to contradict this?

[Couver]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

If Jon's a murderer, what does that make Ollie?  Ollie was executed for a crime. He  participated in the murder of his LC because he disagreed with the LC's decision. Boo hoo. (Side bar: First, I doubt Ollie was 10. Second, being a child doesn't excuse his actions.) Ollie got what he deserved along with his fellow murderers. Actions. Consequences. End of story.

Ollie was no different than Arya in the end. He wanted to avenge his parents who Egret and the wildlings she was with brutally slaughtered. He clearly blamed Jon for what he saw as siding with the murderers of his parents. Obviously Jon wasn't doing that but the show did a good job showing where Ollie was coming from. He was destroyed by witnessing something a kid probably shouldn't ever have to. Arya's entire character arc has been driven by vengeance and she's usually cheered. Ollie's mistake was obviously hating a fan favorite character.

I think what people raising this point are saying or at least I am is that if Dany is a tyrant for what she did to the Tarly's then Jon is no defacto better leader. He has a fair amount of blood on his hands and killed Ollie and the other traitorous NW members for the same reasons that Dany killed the Tarlys. If Randall and Dickon deserved some sort of pardon then certainly a young boy shaped by violence should have been given the same benefit?

[paigow]

25 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Well as Sam is traveling through the kingdom with his girlfriend Gilly and her baby named after him, he himself has basically forgotten the Night's Watch oath.

Technically, Sam has not fathered any children. The toddler is a genetic trainwreck that seems to be extremely lucky [healthy] so far....There is no House Of Tarly to take over anyway...the army and bannermen are dead / captured.