The Chefs/Cheftestants of Top Chef

[Ellee]

Re Gabe. I read an article where a press person was coming on a Saturday night.  Gabe had plans to be home with his family that night.  The person doing the review on the restaurant was offended that Gabe didn’t stay and wine and dine him.  It sounded like there was a big stink about it. Other restaurants mentioned that they had problems too.   It was about the time of the firing if I remember correctly  

Sorry about not being clearer.  I’ll try and find the articles.  I’m not having one of my better days. 
 

https://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city-life/03-02-20-chef-gabe-erales-peter-barlow-taylor-adams-instagram/

Edited June 26, 2021 by Ellee

[emmawoodhouse]

Saw Dawn on Beat Bobby Flay. Surprising no one, she had time issue problems. She failed to get the "star of the dish," in this case rabbit loin, on the grill in a timely fashion. She was sent packing without the opportunity to beat Bobby.

[JenMcSnark]

On 6/25/2021 at 3:47 PM, Rai said:

Whoa! Major Gabe update! If it's true, then he totally has my support to win, and I'm also so relieved. I hope it is true!

According to the guys on Watch What Crappens, they were approached by someone who actually knows the owners of the restaurant where Gabe was fired. And the skinny is a customer came in and ordered a huge amount of food -- like $400 worth -- and left a five-dollar tip. So Gabe posted the receipt on social media and read this customer for filth. I don't know if he shared the name of the customer -- which is tricky legal territory -- but that's where the clash of "values and culture" came into play. He was fired for customer shaming.

...And if this is true, then honestly, I am now totally team Gabe. Because treating the service staff like that during a pandemic is disgraceful, and it shows to me he cares about his FOH as much as he does the people in his kitchen. Which...is what you want. I hope someone else will verify this to be true. Because I want to believe.

Here's the episode:

https://play.acast.com/s/watchwhatcrappens/0d71b7fd-d26b-4ebb-b3bd-ad520055d67f

 

On 6/25/2021 at 4:30 PM, Irlandesa said:

Here's the Austin Chronicle's report on the firing.

https://www.austinchronicle.com/food/2020-12-25/shakeup-at-comedor-after-high-profile-chef-out/

In the report, the owner of the restaurant mentioned involving a third party HR company, a hotline and repeated violations.  They're not going to do that over Gabe posting a receipt online. 

In addition, a year ago, this was published about an Instagram account collecting reports of abusive and unethical behavior towards people in the service industry in Austin.

https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/welp-512-instagram-austin-restaurants-alamo/

Comedore, and its chefs, was the subject of at least one of the reports.  It aligns far better with the eventual firing statement, IMO.

 

On 6/25/2021 at 5:04 PM, Ellee said:

Re Gabe. I read an article where a press person was coming on a Saturday night.  Gabe had plans to be home with his family that night.  The person doing the review on the restaurant was offended that Gabe didn’t stay and wine and dine him.  It sounded like there was a big stink about it. Other restaurants mentioned that they had problems too.   It was about the time of the firing if I remember correctly  

Sorry about not being clearer.  I’ll try and find the articles.  I’m not having one of my better days. 
 

https://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city-life/03-02-20-chef-gabe-erales-peter-barlow-taylor-adams-instagram/

I saw this stuff on Reddit.  Personally, I think Gabe was in the right in this incident.  However, note that this incident happened in March 2020 and he was fired how many months later?  So this may have been a small part of his "continuous" problems, but this is definitely not what resulted in him being fired. 

I like Gabe on the show for the most part and also think he is a good chef.  But there is something just a little "off" for me. But it could just be because I've heard of the firing. 

[Rai]

I yield to the fact that anecdotal third-hand information may not be accurate. Alas! If there wasn't the speculation about Gabe and why he got fired, I'd so be rooting for him as much as I am the other two. On camera, he's been great, and his food has looked amazing. It's too bad he has this cloud. But on the other hand, if he really did enable a toxic atmosphere and also participate in it, then...losing the support of a TV watcher seems like a pretty teeny consequence.

[Leeds]

On 6/25/2021 at 3:47 PM, Rai said:

 

According to the guys on Watch What Crappens, they were approached by someone who actually knows the owners of the restaurant where Gabe was fired. And the skinny is a customer came in and ordered a huge amount of food -- like $400 worth -- and left a five-dollar tip. So Gabe posted the receipt on social media and read this customer for filth. I don't know if he shared the name of the customer -- which is tricky legal territory -- but that's where the clash of "values and culture" came into play. He was fired for customer shaming.

 

Sorry, I'm not inclined to give much respect to people who have a blog (?) called Watch What Crappens."

[Rai]

They're actually pretty well connected in the Bravo-sphere, but I'm not here to convert anyone. Just naming my source.

[JenMcSnark]

9 hours ago, Rai said:

I yield to the fact that anecdotal third-hand information may not be accurate. Alas! If there wasn't the speculation about Gabe and why he got fired, I'd so be rooting for him as much as I am the other two. On camera, he's been great, and his food has looked amazing. It's too bad he has this cloud. But on the other hand, if he really did enable a toxic atmosphere and also participate in it, then...losing the support of a TV watcher seems like a pretty teeny consequence.

I think almost everyone (myself included) really wants whatever caused Gabe to get fired to be something not...ugly.  Because he cooks amazingly and seems pretty nice!  Maybe he repeatedly gave away free drinks and food.  That would wear on an owner because it's technically stealing.  Who knows?

P.S. Not saying it's okay to skim money off your employer!

[Ellee]

When I read the article about the reviewer and the fallout with Gabe going home instead of promoting the restaurant and doing everything he could to keep him happy I pretty much thought ‘the values’ of putting the business first was what he went against.  No proof. No real facts.  Just what hit me when I read about it. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

Congratulations to the three finalists, Gabe, Top Chef, and Shota, and Dawn.    However, I think that this should now be the season without a winner, and nothing go to Gabe.   

Maybe a one time special meal with Shota and Dawn, and one of them would be come Top Chef?      It's wrong that someone will have the TC title, and is such a disgusting human being, with so little regard for others.      The producers had to have heard about some of the stories long before the show started airing.   They certainly chopped John Besh, and Johnny Inuzzi (or however it's spelled) right out of their episodes when they were judges, so I don't think they should have played the last episode.   Just have a one time Shota, and Dawn cook off, and one of them wins the prizes for the season, even if they don't bestow the TC title.   However, I'm wondering if the producers still went ahead with all of the prizes to the winner?  

 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[Irlandesa]

I still think the simplest explanation is probably the right explanation.  He harassed his subordinates and got fired.

I can't see why they'd need to bring in an outside HR firm and set up a hotline if this was about being afraid he'd leave them.  Or about posting a receipt.  Or not meeting with a critic.  (And perhaps the reason he didn't meet with the critic was because he was on leave while the investigation was wrapping up if it took place around the time of his firing.)

[buttersister]

6 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

why they'd need to bring in an outside HR firm and set up a hotline if this was about being afraid he'd leave them.  Or about posting a receipt.  Or not meeting with a critic

Ugh.

[The Solution]

Feh. Gabe is better off now anyway!

 

[LennieBriscoe]

Wrong thread.

Congratulations, Gabe! 

Edited July 2, 2021 by LennieBriscoe

[blixie]

You sometimes if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's duck.   

I don't know how insular this all was, but it seems like it was fairly well known and discussed within the Austin food community at the very least during casting, and I just think reality shows still to this day aren't vetting for this kind of thing if they are vetting at all. Even after they went through this with Paul Qui, though that wasn't in real time. 

[Macbeth]

1 hour ago, blixie said:

You sometimes if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's duck.   

I don't know how insular this all was, but it seems like it was fairly well known and discussed within the Austin food community at the very least during casting, and I just think reality shows still to this day aren't vetting for this kind of thing if they are vetting at all. Even after they went through this with Paul Qui, though that wasn't in real time. 

TC must have known.  That is a small world we are talking about.  Tom could have found out all the details.  This was happening in real time for them.  So I have no respect for TC. This is the bs I can't stand from TC.

[biakbiak]

40 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

That is a small world we are talking about. 

It was in Austin and during a pandemic it’s not like people were sitting around swapping gossip at industry events. I don’t believe for one second that they knew, this is literally the last thing they wanted and there are many chefs out there who could have taken his slot. However, I do think they should have known and it indicates that something went wrong in the vetting process. 

[Rai]

All I will say is that I work in a very small industry, and a powerful dude in that industry was known to be inappropriate and cheat on his wife and yet so many male buddies of his were still SHOCKED -- SHOCKED I SAY -- to find out not all of his flirting was reciprocal. They were happy to think it was all consensual and just none of their business. I suspect Gabe has enjoyed that same privilege for a long time. So yeah, this kind of stuff can go unnoticed in a small industry or brushed under the rug or whatever, but a hundred percent, the vetting process still should've caught the affairs issue and taken that into consideration.

(It took years and years to oust that powerful dude from his position, and all the male buddies who told me how SHOCKED they were about the truth are still friends with him on Facebook, so. Again. I'm not surprised TC may have turned a blind eye, I'd have been more surprised if Gabe had NOT made it on to the show.)

[Macbeth]

12 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

It was in Austin and during a pandemic it’s not like people were sitting around swapping gossip at industry events. I don’t believe for one second that they knew, this is literally the last thing they wanted and there are many chefs out there who could have taken his slot. However, I do think they should have known and it indicates that something went wrong in the vetting process. 

It's Covid - there are no industry events - but there is plenty of social media, and a lot of chefs with down time.  Those producers have to have their ears to the ground to pick up this shit.  And they didn't

And they certainly knew about it when it aired last night.  They should never have aired it.  

They aired a show - when they knew full well- that they named a sexual predator Top Chef.  FUCK THEM.  

I am not mad at you.  I am grateful that you gave a link to the reddit post.

 I am just so furious over this happening.  It happens again and again and again.  I just want to scream this from the mountaintops.

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Macbeth

[blixie]

Quote

TC must have known

I am not as familiar with production and it's timeline, so I'm not sure. Also I think the kind of people who might have known? Might also be the kind of people who are committed to protecting the status quo and intentionally wouldn't have said something, and we all know Tom was sort of less involved this season as he was putting everything he had into fighting for the industry in Congress. I can believe that the local gossip about one even quite well known chef never made it all the way to Magical Elves.  But it does show how they have to do better when they are casting and it does seem as if they haven't really reckoned with that part of the industries issues. I do have some empathy for people who are friends with people who are predators because those predators make sure, like Gabe did on this season, to not show it to most of the world. They pick their spots, exploit the vulnerable, and it makes it even harder for everyone else to believe, when the targets speak out.

Like I really hate that I was harder on Gabriel, for his more overt if slight sexism, than Gabe who appears to be the bigger menace. 

[dleighg]

More info is coming out.

https://austin.eater.com/2021/7/2/22559953/top-chef-winner-gabe-erales-comedor-fired-harassment-controversy

Then on the Friday morning after the episode aired, Statesman reported that Erales “admitted to having a consensual sexual relationship” with a female staffer during the summer of 2020. When he returned to the restaurant after filming the series in the fall, he cut down her work hours “based on her performance,” but “continued to communicat[e] with her in an unprofessional manner.” He likened his actions to reprimand the employee as “bad decisions” that were “discriminatory.”

 

[blixie]

Accountability or stop talking dude.

Someone on that Reddit speculates that Magical Elves did find out post production/pre editing and maybe that's why they spent what seemed like more narrative time on almost everyone else but Gabe, and only every gave him a "good dad/husband" edit which now looks especially ridiculous. And obviously they haven't given him the same post win showcase/press access that a winner would typically get. I can still believe it was one giant miss on their part in at the very least not knowing how to correct for it between his post production firing and the premiere of the season. I choose to remember the ending being no one won this season and it all ended with the "family" dinner. 

[Irlandesa]

58 minutes ago, blixie said:

Someone on that Reddit speculates that Magical Elves did find out post production/pre editing and maybe that's why they spent what seemed like more narrative time on almost everyone else but Gabe, and only every gave him a "good dad/husband" edit which now looks especially ridiculous.

I think he got a pretty good edit overall.  Not just the family stuff but the "first Mexican-American" winner talk was really amplified the closer we got to the finale. 

[shok]

12 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I think he got a pretty good edit overall.

I thought so too. In fact, I thought on the finale they really went overboard with their gushing praise of him. I got angry watching the show and their rapture at all his dishes that looked pretty ordinary to me and I was yelling 'ENOUGH ALREADY' at my tv screen. There was absolutely no doubt who the winner was going to be because the judging was so biased.

I don't know how much production knew about Gabe's misdeeds but I thought the editing of the final was way out of wack from how they usually do it. I don't imagine Dawn and Shota were too impressed with how their cooking was portrayed either.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 6/25/2021 at 8:28 PM, emmawoodhouse said:

Saw Dawn on Beat Bobby Flay. Surprising no one, she had time issue problems. She failed to get the "star of the dish," in this case rabbit loin, on the grill in a timely fashion. She was sent packing without the opportunity to beat Bobby.

This is actually extraordinary because I've watched so many of these episodes in the past year and it almost never happens that you don't plate on BBF.  So much so that I thought it was rigged to allow for everyone to plate, until I finally saw someone who didn't.

(Unlike Chopped, where it is a frequent occurrence - more ingredients to worry about.)

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 7/3/2021 at 3:40 AM, shok said:

I thought so too. In fact, I thought on the finale they really went overboard with their gushing praise of him. I got angry watching the show and their rapture at all his dishes that looked pretty ordinary to me and I was yelling 'ENOUGH ALREADY' at my tv screen. There was absolutely no doubt who the winner was going to be because the judging was so biased.

I don't know how much production knew about Gabe's misdeeds but I thought the editing of the final was way out of wack from how they usually do it. I don't imagine Dawn and Shota were too impressed with how their cooking was portrayed either.

Like I said in an episode thread, it was almost like Dale Talde in particular was paid or tasked to praise Gabe every episode.  He would always be the first to bring up his dishes, and he would always be GUSHING with praise.

[emmawoodhouse]

3 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

This is actually extraordinary because I've watched so many of these episodes in the past year and it almost never happens that you don't plate on BBF.  So much so that I thought it was rigged to allow for everyone to plate, until I finally saw someone who didn't.

(Unlike Chopped, where it is a frequent occurrence - more ingredients to worry about.)

She got the rabbit on the plate, but it was barely cooked. Like, still bloody.

[Vermicious Knid]

Tom wants to help hospital employees and visitors eat healthier, opens the first fast casual concept Root & Twig inside the Children’s National Research and Innovation Campus in Washington, D.C.

Quote

Root & Sprig, Colicchio said, won’t act as the food service provider for hospitals. It won’t, in other words, provide in-room meals for patients, although friends and family members can bring a Root & Sprig meal to a patient’s room. The fast-casual will, however, serve as a more nutritious option for hospital workers who have historically turned to junk food during busy shifts that frequently leave little time for full meal breaks.

“We really want to hit a sweet price so people who work in the hospital can use it as well,” Colicchio said. “You have health-care workers who just don’t have healthy options in the hospital.”

...

How far and wide could Root & Sprig go? Two other locations, one in Philadelphia and another in Denver, are scheduled to open this fall in hospitals yet to be named.

“I believe there is probably 19 more in the pipeline,” Colicchio said.

 

[hula-la]

Dawn just posted that she cooked at Jamie’s restaurant in Vegas. https://www.instagram.com/reel/CRQBfY2pyDl/?utm_medium=copy_link

[RealityCheck]

Shoto has posted videos for several of the dishes he prepared during the Top Chef competition on his Youtube channel.

[seacliffsal]

I, too, saw Dawn on Beat Bobby Flay and am flabbergasted that she continues to compete in timed competitions.  Oh well.

[HyeChaps]

And there was Avishar on Guy's Grocery Games.  Did very well in first round.  Lost when his next dish was deemed bitter.

[Vermicious Knid]

Did anyone know the Voltaggio brothers have their own competition show on Discovery+? The winner will get to be the chef at one of their restaurants. Other TC cheftestants seem to pop up as judges.

[Rai]

I have discovered a soothing Canadian show on Hulu called Wall of Chefs, where home cooks compete for $10,000 in front of a panel of 12 highly acclaimed Canadian chefs -- plus Hugh Acheson. It's a rotating cast, but Lynn Crawford from Top Chef Masters is always there. And then Hugh and Susar Lee make regular appearances. They're all very nice and encouraging to the home cooks, and the home cooks take their critiques and eliminations in very good graces. I haven't actually watched GBBC yet, but I'm imagine it's the same energy.

That said, Hugh disagreed with the panel on one episode, and everyone looked at him like he'd tracked mud all over their rugs, and that made me laugh a lot.

[mlp]

5 hours ago, Rai said:

I have discovered a soothing Canadian show on Hulu called Wall of Chefs..................

Thanks, Rai.  I've been considering subscribing to Hulu and that decided me.  I've been a big fan of Susur Lee ever since he was on TC Masters and haven't seen him since Chopped Canada.  I'm now looking forward to seeing him again.

[Rai]

Susur Lee is way more laidback on Wall of Chefs than he was on TC Masters! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on it.

[hula-la]

9 hours ago, Rai said:

I have discovered a soothing Canadian show on Hulu called Wall of Chefs, where home cooks compete for $10,000 in front of a panel of 12 highly acclaimed Canadian chefs -- plus Hugh Acheson. It's a rotating cast, but Lynn Crawford from Top Chef Masters is always there. And then Hugh and Susar Lee make regular appearances. They're all very nice and encouraging to the home cooks, and the home cooks take their critiques and eliminations in very good graces. I haven't actually watched GBBC yet, but I'm imagine it's the same energy.

That said, Hugh disagreed with the panel on one episode, and everyone looked at him like he'd tracked mud all over their rugs, and that made me laugh a lot.

A friend of mine was on Wall of Chefs! I never watched the show until his episode, as I don’t like Lynn Crawford. But, I was pleasantly surprised that I like the show. 

[stewedsquash]

On 7/16/2021 at 2:15 AM, Vermicious Knid said:

Did anyone know the Voltaggio brothers have their own competition show on Discovery+? The winner will get to be the chef at one of their restaurants. Other TC cheftestants seem to pop up as judges.

I came across an ad for this maybe last week and one of the Voltaggio's looked...I want to be kind and say interesting but nah, he looked creepy as hell.

[Rai]

On 7/16/2021 at 8:20 PM, hula-la said:

A friend of mine was on Wall of Chefs! I never watched the show until his episode, as I don’t like Lynn Crawford. But, I was pleasantly surprised that I like the show. 

Ooh! Which episode?

[hula-la]

7 hours ago, Rai said:

Ooh! Which episode?

Season 2, episode 1. He’s the Home Ec teacher. 

[Iseut]

I just came across a preview of the Globe, a cooking show on Discovery+ hosted by Robert Irvine. The gimmick is that each round takes the chef to a different city, where they have to cook in the style of that city's cuisine. I admit that it didn't hold my interest a whole lot, which is disappointing for a show about food and travel, two of my favorite things. But anyway, they had a guest judge for each round with expertise in that round's cuisine, and two of them were former cheftestants: Shirley for Beijing, China, and Eric for Accra, Ghana. I'm glad that Eric is still finding ways to promote African cuisine. 

[pally]

Top Chef Alumnus Caitlin Steininger and Brian Young married.  He is the executive chef at Dear Restaurant & Butchery in Cincinnati.  Caitlin has joined him as pastry chef after closing her restaurants during the pandemic

Edited July 21, 2021 by pally

[biakbiak]

15 minutes ago, pally said:

Top Chef Alumnus Caitlin Steininger and Brian Young married.  He is the executive chef at Dear Restaurant & Butchery in Cincinnati.  Caitlin has joined him as pastry chef after closing her restaurants during the pandemic

I had to google who they were but I did recognize them. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

https://variety.com/2021/tv/news/top-chef-winner-gabe-erales-apology-1235026493/

So Gabe is now sorry.   My guess is for getting caught, and it becoming public, not for anything else. 

[ilovebeaarthur]

1 hour ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

https://variety.com/2021/tv/news/top-chef-winner-gabe-erales-apology-1235026493/

So Gabe is now sorry.   My guess is for getting caught, and it becoming public, not for anything else. 

That’s what it sounds like to me. 

[akr]

I can't assess sincerity from the statement; I don't think there's anything he could say that would make people trust him on it at this point. Time will tell. 

[Yeah No]

54 minutes ago, akr said:

I can't assess sincerity from the statement; I don't think there's anything he could say that would make people trust him on it at this point. Time will tell. 

It's not even about how sincere he is.  I still don't get why all he needs to do is issue an apology and make statements about how he is learning, growing and seeking forgiveness meanwhile other chefs and celebs. in similar situations are completely cancelled and no apology, however sincere is ever enough. 

[tv echo]

I wonder how much of Gabe's July 23 Instagram post was written or reviewed by his lawyer ("co-worker" sounds like an equal peer, rather than a subordinate who reported to him). Also, the fact that he is supposed to open a new restaurant in downtown Austin next year, I'm sure, had nothing to do with this latest post.  No comment from Bravo, Tom Colicchio or any of the other Top Chef producers.

FYI, here's his entire post:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CRr1PNyl5NJ/ 

Quote

The last three weeks have been a trying time of reflection and personal growth. I have been silent not because I thought it would go away, but because I needed time with my family to start the healing process before making a public statement. To say I am sorry that I let my family, friends, staff, supporters, and my Top Chef family down may feel like an understatement at this moment, but it's the first step and a genuine start on my road to making amends. Most importantly, I let the one person down who has always been by my side supporting my career and our family, my wife.

I am eternally grateful for the opportunity to be a part Top Chef; however, I must continue to acknowledge my mistakes including the termination from my former job. To clarify, unbeknownst to my wife, I had a consensual relationship with a co-worker and later reduced her work hours, which in combination was a poor judgment call and led to my termination after I filmed Top Chef. I was suddenly at the lowest point in my life - potentially losing my family while I had already lost my job. I am deeply and sincerely sorry for the impact that my poor decisions had on those involved. My personal growth will be a perpetual apology in seeking forgiveness.

I've spent a lot of time reflecting on these mistakes and taking the necessary steps to be a better husband, father, chef and leader, with the help of therapy and spirituality. I recognize that part of an executive chef role is to set the culture and uphold the values of the restaurant. I am committed to doing the personal and professional work every day to create a positive and safe work environment in whatever follows for me professionally. I look forward to creating food that represent my heritage and culture as the chef I know I can be, but my main focus now is my family and those that continue to support me during this difficult time.

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by tv echo

[BlackberryJam]

No apology to the woman he harassed. That says it all.

[Vermicious Knid]

Well, if he harasses women while he's an owner he's going to pay in hard money. Mario Batali and Joe Bastianich had to cough up $600,000 in a settlement.

Quote

The attorney general’s investigation found that Batali, Bastianich, and the restaurant group — which includes Babbo, Lupa, and shuttered fine dining spot Del Posto — had engaged in sex discrimination and retaliation that violated city and state human rights laws, according to the office’s announcement. As previously reported, restaurant employees alleged in the state’s investigation that the restaurants were rife with sexual harassment by managers and coworkers, including “unwanted touching, sexual advances, and explicit comments.”

 

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, Vermicious Knid said:

Well, if he harasses women while he's an owner he's going to pay in hard money. Mario Batali and Joe Bastianich had to cough up $600,000 in a settlement.

Divided up per victim, it's nothing.  It's not a deterrent to these assholes.

14 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

No apology to the woman he harassed. That says it all.

And calling her a "co-worker" when she - like everyone other than his bosses - was a subordinate.  And what about the rest, since these guys are hardly ever reprimanded, let alone fired, yet he got canned - as a local cooking star whose TC win would be a boon for the restaurant once it became public - for "repeated" violations of the restaurant's ethics policy against harassment of women?  You have to pretty much try to get fired for that; whatever the extent of what he did was known, that alone was egregious.  And it means there's still more, given how under-reported these actions are.

He's on about mistakes, reflection, spirituality, and personal growth.  Miss me, Gabe.

But he'll be just fine.  He makes great food, and not enough people - investors and customers - will care enough to give their money to those who also make great food but aren't widely known to harass the women in their employ.  This will blow over, like it always does.  On the off chance it doesn't, he can whine about "cancel culture" (code for the actions of the relatively powerful actually having consequences sometimes) and come back a little later when even more have forgotten.