Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[ursula]

TV Tropes defines it clearly:

Quote

A MacGuffin (a.k.a. McGuffin or maguffin) is a term for a motivating element in a story that is used to drive the plot. It serves no further purpose. It won't pop up again later, it won't explain the ending, it won't do anything except possibly distract you while you try to figure out its significance. In some cases, it won't even be shown. It is usually a mysterious package/artifact/superweapon that everyone in the story is chasing.

To determine if a thing is a MacGuffin:

Is the nature of the item interchangeable?

Is the nature of the item irrelevant to the plot?

The Iron Throne is obviously not a McGuffin because it is not interchangeable with a Magical Artifact or Secret Plans and of course, the seat of government of Westeros is important to the plot of Game of Thrones.

[Raachel2008]

9 hours ago, dreamcatcher said:

So yeah, maybe Isaac truly feels this is deserved, but I’m glad people are lashing out on D&D. Their job was to make the end satisfying and they destroyed it by making all the wrong storytelling choices. They deserve the criticism.

The end would never ever be satisfying for everyone.

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

backlash to the finale will absolutely kill the spinoff. (And “Bloodmoon” is a terrible name; it sounds like a YA vampire/werewolf romance.) The same thing happened with How I Met Your Mothe

It will not, and it is naive to think so, or to compare GoT to HIMYM. The prequel is already  in production and HBO won’t give up on a (possibly) new hit.

7 hours ago, Stallion12 said:

think a sequel could be marketed as the true ending and having it end better written could take some of the sting out.  It won't fix everything of course, but a good spinoff sequel or sequel movie can have people say that's the real ending, even if they have to slight recon things. I can't see HBO letting the franchise fall.

That will never happen. This is the end of Game of Thrones, and, I believe, as GRRM intended. Yeah, it was rushed, poorly done, but that is the ending. Why would HBO invest money in a “true ending” since they already showed the ending? Recon things, how? Make a movie where Dany doesn’t burn children? That was the ending and there is no way HBO will ever redo season 8.

7 hours ago, Stallion12 said:

Or edits being made to tomorrow's episode to change the ending.

And change George/D&D ending? And what ending do you mean? Bran? Jon? Dany? Won’t happen either.

7 hours ago, Stallion12 said:

I don't know, I just heard there were at least two, and one is sands getting the throne instead of bran. It's bad either way, but at least sands is more built up.

Nope, all the (f)leaks says Bran ends in the throne. And there’s really not a build up for Sansa getting the throne. For he it has been for two seasons about ruling the North.

[Stallion12]

2 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

The end would never ever be satisfying for everyone.

It will not, and it is naive to think so, or to compare GoT to HIMYM. The prequel is already  in production and HBO won’t give up on a (possibly) new hit.

That will never happen. This is the end of Game of Thrones, and, I believe, as GRRM intended. Yeah, it was rushed, poorly done, but that is the ending. Why would HBO invest money in a “true ending” since they already showed the ending? Recon things, how? Make a movie where Dany doesn’t burn children? That was the ending and there is no way HBO will ever redo season 8.

And change George/D&D ending? And what ending do you mean? Bran? Jon? Dany? Won’t happen either.

Nope, all the (f)leaks says Bran ends in the throne. And there’s really not a build up for Sansa getting the throne. For he it has been for two seasons about ruling the North.

Because a terrible ending will hurt the franchise, HBO clearly already sees the reaction to their money maker. Himym is a great comparison because it's ending was so bad, the prequel didn't happen. HBO will not tolerate losing money and risk it's investment flopping. A bad ending would do that. Grrms biggest fear is the ending being hated and him avoiding the pitch forks, well this ending will be hated and have the pitch forks.  Hopefully towards d@d and not him. HBO would make a continuation as the real ending to save the franchise. By light recon I meant undoing the ending. The ending would still happen,  just not be the end. Grrm has talked about an 8th book, so he's not completely sold on not continuing the story, and Sansa is far more decoupled then bran. There would still be outrage, but less of it. And multiple endings were filmed, the actors said it themselves. HBO aren't going to let such a money maker die, tgey will do damage control. Tgey can't redo season 8 due to the contract, if tgey had that control there would have been new showrunners, tgey can expand the franchise however they want though.  And the signs are there they will do something to migrate the rage, making a spinoff a sequel or making a sequel movie arevtge most likely two options.

[Solace247]

9 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

The writing was terrible for a while now, but no one protested it. Its only when a woman does something bad on TV? Is the petition calling for a more convincing build up for a "dark turn" for Dany, or is it calling for a complete rewrite? Those are two very different things.

For me in S8 the "bad writing" starts with everything centering around Dany, writing her as if she's the only POV that matters. We get her reaction to Jon's parentage, but not Arya's or Sansa's. Jon's POV is completely blocked. Then Jon had to be an "extra" because thats what Dany will only allow him to be. If he exerts his opinions, sides with his family, thinks about his parentage at all, questions Dany's orders, Dany is threatened. We get hints that he'd rather be staying in the North but of course he can't tell Dany that. He's such a loyal, perfect supplicant - exactly what Dany wants. People were happy Jon bent the knee without realizing there's really not a lot for Jon to do when he's a glorified servant. So at least killing her would be something like a step towards getting a personality.

One thing I did like though is that we didn't see Dany's reaction on Drogon as she slaughtered them. The POV was from the people on the ground, which is as it should be. 

That’s precisely the problem but I’m coming at it from a slight angle. They had to hit MAD DANY by ep. 5 of a 6 episode season (I like to think that this was either lack of planning or wanting to save the reveal to the last minute—which is cheap). Every character had to service that narrative because Dany was nowhere near that person at the end of season 7. So now, everyone apparently has foreknowledge that Dany’s losing it by ep. 5 and they are written as hollow versions of themselves or else practically omniscient because there’s apparently no time to build it up organically. It’s all MECHANICAL.

[Colorful Mess]

45 minutes ago, Solace247 said:

That’s precisely the problem but I’m coming at it from a slight angle. They had to hit MAD DANY by ep. 5 of a 6 episode season (I like to think that this was either lack of planning or wanting to save the reveal to the last minute—which is cheap). Every character had to service that narrative because Dany was nowhere near that person at the end of season 7. So now, everyone apparently has foreknowledge that Dany’s losing it by ep. 5 and they are written as hollow versions of themselves or else practically omniscient because there’s apparently no time to build it up organically. It’s all MECHANICAL.

I can agree with that. They made them robots for the twist. If Jon was critical of Dany at any point, more people would have maybe seen it coming. They clearly wanted to shock people so Jon and Tyrion had to be dummies. But mechanical writing aside, I still think that Joe Dempsie is right - it makes sense upon reflection. I hated Dany for a long time because I knew she'd do something like this. I just thought she'd do it to Winterfell instead of King's Landing.

[MrsR]

So The Australian Red Cross did a war crime analysis of GOT before Season 8 began.

It's rather enlightening in regards to the current conversations.

https://www.redcross.org.au/news-and-media/news/game-of-thrones

[ParadoxLost]

2 hours ago, Stallion12 said:

It's out of nowhere because the 3er hasn't really been devolped or done much.

But what I'm saying. Its the only option outside of Jon or Dany taking the Throne pretty much because he an empty and undeveloped character.  Its the why aren't there better politicians to vote for scenario.  That's why Bran and Tyrion chatted about what Bran's life is like now that he's the 3ER.  Its to set up Tyrion putting a figurehead on the Throne while he and the council rules. 

This seems to be shaping up to be a nihilist finale.  Or perhaps one that is attempting (badly) to subvert hero tropes.

Cersei was the irredeemable villain. She was supposed to get her comeuppance. Die alone. Or better at the hands of her victim or Jamie.  Instead Jamie came back for her and she died in his arms in a way that was almost romantic.

Jamie was supposed to see the error of his ways and redeem himself.  He chose Cersei instead.

Dany was supposed to be smarter than Viserys and not believe that Westeros would welcome back the Targ dynasty.  She was supposed to use the time she spent under the yoke of her brother and husband to empower herself and be a good leader for the people of Westeros. Instead she burned them alive because they weren't going to love her so they were going to fear her.

Jon gets a happy ending. He gets to go beyond the Wall and reunite with the Wildings and Ghost.  That is closer to what he's wanted than anything else.  Except, he was supposed to realize that he needed to lead and be content with it because he's the hero and he's supposed to save the people of Westeros and lead them to a bright future.  He even had a secret lineage that made him the rightful ruler after he proved himself of capable of uniting the North and standing against the Army of the Dead.

A lot of this wouldn't have been as WTF if we were still in the seasons where they were beheading Ned and having Red Weddings.  There were no happy endings expected.

The Purple Wedding and the tide turning to more triumphs to the "good" characters changed expectations.  Now it feels like a bait and switch.

This type of ending is one that has a slim chance of going over well if executed perfectly and execution has been far from that.

[Stallion12]

34 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

But what I'm saying. Its the only option outside of Jon or Dany taking the Throne pretty much because he an empty and undeveloped character.  Its the why aren't there better politicians to vote for scenario.  That's why Bran and Tyrion chatted about what Bran's life is like now that he's the 3ER.  Its to set up Tyrion putting a figurehead on the Throne while he and the council rules. 

This seems to be shaping up to be a nihilist finale.  Or perhaps one that is attempting (badly) to subvert hero tropes.

Cersei was the irredeemable villain. She was supposed to get her comeuppance. Die alone. Or better at the hands of her victim or Jamie.  Instead Jamie came back for her and she died in his arms in a way that was almost romantic.

Jamie was supposed to see the error of his ways and redeem himself.  He chose Cersei instead.

Dany was supposed to be smarter than Viserys and not believe that Westeros would welcome back the Targ dynasty.  She was supposed to use the time she spent under the yoke of her brother and husband to empower herself and be a good leader for the people of Westeros. Instead she burned them alive because they weren't going to love her so they were going to fear her.

Jon gets a happy ending. He gets to go beyond the Wall and reunite with the Wildings and Ghost.  That is closer to what he's wanted than anything else.  Except, he was supposed to realize that he needed to lead and be content with it because he's the hero and he's supposed to save the people of Westeros and lead them to a bright future.  He even had a secret lineage that made him the rightful ruler after he proved himself of capable of uniting the North and standing against the Army of the Dead.

A lot of this wouldn't have been as WTF if we were still in the seasons where they were beheading Ned and having Red Weddings.  There were no happy endings expected.

The Purple Wedding and the tide turning to more triumphs to the "good" characters changed expectations.  Now it feels like a bait and switch.

This type of ending is one that has a slim chance of going over well if executed perfectly and execution has been far from that.

Honestly, this type of ending could have worked fine if they wrote the story in it's direction. THey even had the previous 3er basicly say the postition avoids politics, yet here's the current one, an underdevolped character who skipped a whole season, the king. Cersi not getting hers could have worked if it didn't undo all the character devolpment of Jamie. Johns' ending alone is fine, the problem many have with it was he didn't do anything with his herritage, it honestly would have been better if they avoided it. The Danny situtation isnt' that she turned bad, just as another poster said it wasn't built up to make her that way, it's a sudden turn and characters act out of character to get her there. Part of it is the rushing, but part of it is their middle they made up took the characters in a whole other direction.

[seacliffsal]

On 5/16/2019 at 1:36 AM, MrsR said:

 

They have specifically bred a pack of dogs for the sole purpose of having them play the direwolves in the prequel. Is that clear enough you, my little dove?

I'm not a little dove, but why couldn't they have done this for this show?  They knew the importance of direwolves when writing the pilot, so there's been about 10-11 years throughout the life of this show to come up with this solution (if it is one).

[MrsR]

11 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

I'm not a little dove, but why couldn't they have done this for this show?  They knew the importance of direwolves when writing the pilot, so there's been about 10-11 years throughout the life of this show to come up with this solution (if it is one).

I can't speak for them but I would imagine that they had no idea it was possible. They're producers, not dog breeders.

Then there's money, they weren't rolling in it the first year.

I do know that they had regrets about the popularization of huskies. A year or two after the show's premiere there was a major influx of abandoned huskies at animal shelters. Not surprisingly the dogs were named Ice, Sansa, Nymeria, Ghost etc. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by MrsR

[magdalene]

The only finale spoilers I like are Davos surviving and ending in position of power,  and Drogon and one of the dire wolfs hopefully also surviving.

At this point I want the show to be over and I want to move on.  I am burned out on both the books and the TV series.  I have no plans to re-watch or to re-read the series. Or to watch the spin-offs. 

I wonder how many people are like me and subscribed to HBO just for Game of Thrones?  I would subscribe when Game Of Thrones was on and drop HBO the rest of the year.  It was an expensive treat to have HBO for one program. 

I am not going to say I am never going to subscribe to HBO again - heck, I would be back in a New York minute if HBO got  The Lymond Chronicles which was optioned for TV a while ago. But for now my HBO subscription days are over.

[yowsah1]

On 5/18/2019 at 8:23 AM, Eyes High said:

A backlash to the finale will absolutely kill the spinoff. (And “Bloodmoon” is a terrible name; it sounds like a YA vampire/werewolf romance.) The same thing happened with How I Met Your Mother.

Then there was the recent BATTLESTAR GALACTICA, which had an ending that fans also hated.  It launched a fairly expensive prequel series called CAPRICA, the prequel lasted about two exceptionally low rated seasons and then was cancelled.  

On 5/18/2019 at 10:09 AM, Soup333 said:

Since GoT was the only HBO show I watched, I already ended my sub. I can’t have been the only one. I’d argue that the reaction to this season is already having an impact on their bottom line and that’s why we have the damage control PR leak. 

I think one of the real tells of whether or not fan dissatisfaction with the final season hurts HBO is going to be how many people cancel their subscriptions after the last episode.  A petition can be dismissed as no big deal, but cancelled subscriptions are a direct hit to HBOs bottom line.

On 5/18/2019 at 11:35 AM, Francie said:

My subscription will expire in the middle of next week.  If this season had been great, I would have kept it going for at least another couple months, until the season or series DVDs came out, so that I could re-watch the episodes. I have the other seasons on DVD, so I would only get the series if the bells -- sorry, don't mean to trigger any one --and whistles  were shiny and loud enough. But, this season has been disappointing, and the scenes I enjoyed so short and too far between, that I don't anticipate having any urge to re-watch.

This is another place where fan anger could hit HBO's bottom line.  Networks like HBO nowadays get the a lot of their money from TV series from the "long tail" of sales after the series is over - DVD sales and the like.  Very likely HBO built all this revnue into their budget estimates for the show, the rising fan anger has probably put a lot of question marks over that revenue.

Edited May 19, 2019 by yowsah1

[dargosmydaddy]

17 minutes ago, yowsah1 said:

It launched a fairly expensive prequel series called GALACTICA,

It was called Caprica.

[Advance35]

I didn't think subscriptions mattered.  Isn't this show pirated by the majority anyway?

I also know quite a few people who subscribed for GoT months and then dropped the subscription when Game of Thrones had concluded for the year.   

HBO has been looking for it's next big hit for sometime and I don't think it anticipated it being any of the Prequels.   I think they are more relying on Westworld (is that still a thing), The Watchmen, Big Little Lies and a few others.

Other then the lighting debacle Episodes 1 - 4 seemed to be well thought of.  It's 5 that's caused the outcry and it's hard for me not to dismiss that as the sour grapes of one corner of the fandom.   Especially since for all the think pieces, the comments  that respond to the articles seem to be a mix of those that agree and those that say they are enjoying the season despite "issues."

[ulkis]

13 hours ago, HighwayFlower said:

They had the option to make a longer season and chose not too, so they get no A for effort from me. Their choice led to a rushed and unsatisfying ending. Critic and fan response is part of TV. The hit to their writing reputation is deserved. 

Definitely, but I don't blame actors for thinking a petition to change the finale is silly.

[WearyTraveler]

From reading the books, I have always thought, as many others did, that Jaime will end up killing Cersei and fulfilling the Valonquar prophesy.  And that they would die together.  And I think I know why D&D decided to go with the die together part but not with the Jaime killing her part.

I'm an avid reader, have been so since I learned to read, and there are some patterns and story arcs that you just know before the author reveals them.  While reading the books, I guessed many of the developments that came to pass (R+L=J, for example), some developments I didn't guess until the characters did (Joffrey engineered Bran's assassination attempt), and I thought some developments could go in several different directions (i.e. the information provided was not enough to guess).

In the matter of Cersei's death in the books, I'm still convinced it will be Jaime who kills her.  But it will happen a lot sooner than in the show, probably in the next book (if Martin ever finishes it).  Since D&D loved Lena (and Cersei) and wanted to keep her character around until the end, they could not have Jaime kill her in the penultimate episode.  Why? Because Jon will kill Dany in the finale, and we can't have two guys killing the queens they love because they have become monsters in back to back episodes.  Jaime killing Cersei would diminish the impact of Jon killing Dany.

If I am correct, then this is one more character development moment sacrificed at the altar of their weird Cersei adoration (and I'm not even a Jaime fan!).  Sigh!

I think it's sad that the show will not stick the landing. But, oh, well. life goes on!

Edited May 19, 2019 by WearyTraveler

[ulkis]

13 hours ago, Stallion12 said:

Seceral mainstream articles have been blasting the season, ive never seen that for a show before.

The posts you responded to were specifically talking about the press not mentioning the immaturity of the Kit/Jon short jokes.

[yowsah1]

55 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

It was called Caprica.

Oooops, my bad.  Fixed now.  :)

[Solace247]

3 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I can agree with that. They made them robots for the twist. If Jon was critical of Dany at any point, more people would have maybe seen it coming. They clearly wanted to shock people so Jon and Tyrion had to be dummies. But mechanical writing aside, I still think that Joe Dempsie is right - it makes sense upon reflection. I hated Dany for a long time because I knew she'd do something like this. I just thought she'd do it to Winterfell instead of King's Landing.

That’s fine if you think it makes sense—it’s there’s in bullet point form, but then, so was Jonerys baby. To me, bullet points aren’t television they’re PowerPoint presentations. 

The contrivances of season 7 & 8: practically ever Tyrion shitfest that deprived Danaerys of her forces; miracle fleets and nerfed Highgarden soldiers to keep Cersei around; Dany respawning major forces an episode later; easily dispatching Cersei’s forces—it’s all so ridiculous that it only lends incredulity to the Danaerys heel turn. I’m going in to this finale feeling absolutely nothing for any of the characters. In fact, I actively despise practically all of them (thanks to their stupidity, heavy suspicion, or omniscience as the plot requires) ,save for Davos, who I’m merely indifferent to. That’s the power of television, I guess.

[hypnotoad]

A lot of people hated the ending of Lost - I wasn't one. I loved that show from beginning to end. But then I was someone who cared more about the characters than 'the answers.' Plus after having gone through The X Files, I knew we'd never get all the answers! I cried and cried and cried during that final episode.

I doubt very much I'll be crying over anything that happens on GoT's last episode. I fully expected to when this season started but man things have taken a turn. I actually liked the first 3 episodes but the last 2? Yikes. Disappointed barely covers it.

These spoilers sound absolutely awful. Every single bit of them.

Lost may have not provided me with all the answers to the mysteries of the island but I felt something for the characters. I cared what happened to them. Each reunion was great.

I don't feel anything for Dany, Jon, Sansa, Bran ... or even Arya and Tyrion (who have long been my favorites). I'll watch the episode tomorrow night but I think I'm going to be walking away from it feeling far more like I did at the conclusion of Battlestar Galactica. That means I'll just be glad it's finally over which makes me sad.

If I do a rewatch sometime down the line, I think I'll stop at Arya killing the NK.

On the topic of McGuffin:

Quote

I take my lead from Hitchcock and classic film theory.

Agreed. Hitchcock really popularized that term and his view the McGuffin is the object that sets the plot going and the characters are all running around looking for said object, but the movie or show or whatever really isn't about that object. Other directors might take a different view, but I've always gone with Hitchcock's explanation.

Edited May 19, 2019 by hypnotoad

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, ulkis said:

Definitely, but I don't blame actors for thinking a petition to change the finale is silly.

It is silly, there's no way the final season will be remade.  But the fact that they got a million people to sign it shows how disappointed people are in the ending.

2 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

If I am correct, then this is one more character development moment sacrificed at the altar of their weird Cersei adoration (and I'm not even a Jaime fan!).  Sigh!

D&D probably have the actress confused with the character.  They probably are fond of working with Lena Headey, and some of that transfers over to Cersei.  But yeah, it's horrible.

[lucindabelle]

8 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

This is my thing.  What is the one that makes sense with what they've built?  And how much of the last few seasons have to be ignored to make that work.

A lot of the problem here is that they were good at adapting books and suck at fleshing out outlines.  So there isn't anything that would be a really satisfying ending because all the foundations are shaky.

Maybe everyone would have been happier with a fan service ending but that wouldn't have been a "good" ending any more than this is shaping up to be.

I think it was clearly leading to a dany on iron throne ending. Not because fan service but because of how it’s been plotted.

but there could be complications: she could have destroyed red keep and had collateral damage. Sansa could refuse to champion anyone but Jon. Etc.

but clearly they wanted to subvert a “fan service lending with a twist and to do that ended up with something as stupid as how I met your mother which should have gone with “fan service” and just had the mother live and the story end.

[lucindabelle]

3 hours ago, magdalene said:

The only finale spoilers I like are Davos surviving and ending in position of power,  and Drogon and one of the dire wolfs hopefully also surviving.

At this point I want the show to be over and I want to move on.  I am burned out on both the books and the TV series.  I have no plans to re-watch or to re-read the series. Or to watch the spin-offs. 

I wonder how many people are like me and subscribed to HBO just for Game of Thrones?  I would subscribe when Game Of Thrones was on and drop HBO the rest of the year.  It was an expensive treat to have HBO for one program. 

I am not going to say I am never going to subscribe to HBO again - heck, I would be back in a New York minute if HBO got  The Lymond Chronicles which was optioned for TV a while ago. But for now my HBO subscription days are over.

OMG who has optioned Lymond? Long ago the late Johnny Cunningham, a Scottish fiddler extraordinaire, said he’d love to do it. I wonder if his brother Phil, now a knight, has been tapped. (Founding members of Trad Scottish supergroup silly Wizard).

Edited May 19, 2019 by lucindabelle

[Callista]

5 hours ago, magdalene said:

I wonder how many people are like me and subscribed to HBO just for Game of Thrones?  I would subscribe when Game Of Thrones was on and drop HBO the rest of the year.  It was an expensive treat to have HBO for one program. 

I am not going to say I am never going to subscribe to HBO again - heck, I would be back in a New York minute if HBO got  The Lymond Chronicles which was optioned for TV a while ago. But for now my HBO subscription days are over.

Won't you consider watching His Dark Materials before unsubscribing? 🙂

[Nashville]

11 hours ago, Dame sans merci said:

I definitely think this is the big WTF moment of the finale: I met some unspoiled family members earlier, and asked them for their predictions. Everybody expects Dany to get killed, but nobody mentioned Bran as a possible king (even when I asked them for some left field guesses). 

I don’t see why the notion of King Bram should be so far out of left field.  Bram sits on his ass all day, can’t do anything for himself, regularly presents himself as a fount of knowledge and secret information far beyond that of normal ken, and speaks in obscure sound bites.  What part of this doesn’t sound like a career politician?  ;>

[dreamcatcher]

9 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

The end would never ever be satisfying for everyone.

Nope, all the (f)leaks says Bran ends in the throne. And there’s really not a build up for Sansa getting the throne. For he it has been for two seasons about ruling the North.

There’s no build up for Sansa on the throne as opposed to King Bran?

Satisfying doesn’t mean we get what we wanted. Robb was always my favorite, I can’t rewatch the red wedding because it kills me everytime BUT it was “satisfying” in the sense that it made sense and I loved seeing the aftermath. This mess?

Bronn the amoral sellsword who became somewhat tolerable through his friendship with the Lannister boys turned on them to get a castle. He did get Highgarden aka the most prosperous castle and sits on the council while we never saw him give a crap for anyone but himself. Yet Danny had to be neutralized and Jon sent to the north. And with Jon, I never cared about him but we had all these prophesies and spent so much time on his parentage reveal for what? Him taking the black because he technically killed the Queen who usurped him? Greyworm wouldn’t be checking up on westeros to make sure Jon is in exile. And why is Tyrion who was a bigger traitor still alive and on the council? And don’t forget that book!Tyrion isn’t that good so no, having another Lannister on the throne (technically speaking) isn’t satisfying. Danny saying one season “i’m not here to burn your cities” and do just that because people don’t love her when she never tried to get people on her side, isn’t satisfying. The Iron Throne somehow survived? And Drogon sees his dead mother and just nopes out? The dothraki can be reasoned with and they just nope out to go liberate slaves? A dragon getting killed in such a stupid manner, all battle tactics being ridiculous, a robot who doesn’t care about being a lord of whatever and doesn’t use his knowledge to help anyone on the throne isn’t satisfying. I’d rather have NK winning and wiping out westeros at this point. 

All these points may work for the books (which I doubt at this point but anyway), but not for the series. They needed more time to tell this story and actually, because of their decision to rush the final season it’s like we’ve been watching a different show. GOT never was all about the big battles. We had one or two per season and then spent the rest of the episodes getting to know the characters and their motivations. This season feels like a cheap action movie version of GOT.

[magdalene]

3 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

OMG who has optioned Lymond? Long ago the late Johnny Cunningham, a Scottish fiddler extraordinaire, said he’d love to do it. I wonder if his brother Phil, now a knight, has been tapped. (Founding members of Trad Scottish supergroup silly Wizard).

The Poldark producers did. Now option of course doesn't mean it will come to anything. But wouldn't it be lovely? 

[WindyNights]

4 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

I think it was clearly leading to a dany on iron throne ending. Not because fan service but because of how it’s been plotted.

but there could be complications: she could have destroyed red keep and had collateral damage. Sansa could refuse to champion anyone but Jon. Etc.

but clearly they wanted to subvert a “fan service lending with a twist and to do that ended up with something as stupid as how I met your mother which should have gone with “fan service” and just had the mother live and the story end.

I think they wanted you to think that at the beginning or you'd feel like following Daenerys was a waste of time. 

They knew from the beginning that Daenerys wasn't getting the throne. That wasn't their idea. It was GRRM's. Benioff and Weiss just didn't do the legwork for it just like they didn't do the legwork for Stannis to burn Shireen but even that was less abrupt than Daenerys torching everyone after she had won.

[sunnyface]

Quote

weird Cersei adoration

Lena has been knocking it out of the park for the past decade.  She has been my favorite part of this TV series.  Where the TV series let this viewer down was the casting of Jon Snow.  The lack of effort/special effects spent on Bran's 'visions' vs. the emphasis on the dragons (which might have been great on a big screen - but not so much on the idiot box) would have left a tidier version of the TV series should Bran take the throne this pm. 

I do agree with the wank that because GRRM has Dany killed in the book, W&B had to have her killed.  W&B failed in pacing her transformation from being a poor war commander to a 'mad' targ.    

As someone who started reading this in '96/'97, I am grateful that HBO decided to attempt to put this on the screen and transformed this series based on the strengths of the actors.  Unlike most folks, I have a much more negative and visceral reaction to GRRM's inability to continue his series.  He has set in motion a horrible practice of sci-fi fantasy authors/publishers not finishing series (see. Patrick Rothfuss) or delaying the release.   GRRM should have hired/worked with another writer (e.g., brad stephenson) to get his ideas shaped into a way to continue/finish his story.  W&B's ending is 'just' more fall-out from GRRM's decision to invest his time and energy into other projects that do not involve Westeros.  Overall, W&B did a spectacular job of covering an unfinished science fiction fantasy series.   YMMV.

Edited May 19, 2019 by sunnyface
W&B

[Azi]

If only we all had listened to Jojen several seasons back. He told us it was all about Bran. Only true prophet etc etc. 

[dreamcatcher]

1 hour ago, sunnyface said:

Lena has been knocking it out of the park for the past decade.  She has been my favorite part of this TV series.  Where the TV series let this viewer down was the casting of Jon Snow.  The lack of effort/special effects spent on Bran's 'visions' vs. the emphasis on the dragons (which might have been great on a big screen - but not so much on the idiot box) would have left a tidier version of the TV series should Bran take the throne this pm. 

I do agree with the wank that because GRRM has Dany killed in the book, D&B had to have her killed.  D&B failed in pacing her transformation from being a poor war commander to a 'mad' targ.    

As someone who started reading this in '96/'97, I am grateful that HBO decided to attempt to put this on the screen and transformed this series based on the strengths of the actors.  Unlike most folks, I have a much more negative and visceral reaction to GRRM's inability to continue his series.  He has set in motion a horrible practice of sci-fi fantasy authors/publishers not finishing series (see. Patrick Rothfuss) or delaying the release.   GRRM should have hired/worked with another writer (e.g., brad stephenson) to get his ideas shaped into a way to continue/finish his story.  D&B's ending is 'just' more fall-out from GRRM's decision to invest his time and energy into other projects that do not involve Westeros.  Overall, D&B did a spectacular job of covering an unfinished science fiction fantasy series.   YMMV.

The thing is, if you change things for the show and prop up certain characters because their actors are better, then you need to change how your story ends. I doubt Cersei survives that long in the books or that Martin will ignore the prophecy and have her die this way. Why change that to serve Lena but not other things that would make the story you built make sense?

And also, one important difference with the rest of inadequate Kings and Queens was that they had strong and loyal advisors next to them, they chose to ignore them and paid for their mistakes-especially Rob and Ned. Dany has awful advisors who have betrayed her but she is paranoid for no reason? Cersei has loyal advisors even though she is a despicable human being with no right to the throne whatsoever. If they had portrayed Dany’s camp as capable and loyal and her being paranoid for no reason, I could buy the whole turning mad storyline. She has every right to be paranoid in her situation though and according to the spoilers, she lets her guard down for Jon and that’s what gets her killed. While the other monster of the series at least died with her lover next to her.

[Azi]

Especially since I always took Dany listening to her advisers as a sure sign that she wasn't crazy or at all like her father. They could always tell her that her initial impulse was wrong without fearing for their lives. She never even started to ignore them before going coocoo puffs ... the advice just got shittier. 

[Stallion12]

9 hours ago, ulkis said:

The posts you responded to were specifically talking about the press not mentioning the immaturity of the Kit/Jon short jokes.

Ah, misread.

[Stallion12]

10 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I didn't think subscriptions mattered.  Isn't this show pirated by the majority anyway?

I also know quite a few people who subscribed for GoT months and then dropped the subscription when Game of Thrones had concluded for the year.   

HBO has been looking for it's next big hit for sometime and I don't think it anticipated it being any of the Prequels.   I think they are more relying on Westworld (is that still a thing), The Watchmen, Big Little Lies and a few others.

Other then the lighting debacle Episodes 1 - 4 seemed to be well thought of.  It's 5 that's caused the outcry and it's hard for me not to dismiss that as the sour grapes of one corner of the fandom.   Especially since for all the think pieces, the comments  that respond to the articles seem to be a mix of those that agree and those that say they are enjoying the season despite "issues."

The outcry started in episoide 3, the petition in 4. And this whole business model is subscriptions, if enough cancel that will hurt tgeir bottom line.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, sunnyface said:

Lena has been knocking it out of the park for the past decade.  She has been my favorite part of this TV series.  Where the TV series let this viewer down was the casting of Jon Snow.  The lack of effort/special effects spent on Bran's 'visions' vs. the emphasis on the dragons (which might have been great on a big screen - but not so much on the idiot box) would have left a tidier version of the TV series should Bran take the throne this pm. 

I do agree with the wank that because GRRM has Dany killed in the book, D&B had to have her killed.  D&B failed in pacing her transformation from being a poor war commander to a 'mad' targ.    

As someone who started reading this in '96/'97, I am grateful that HBO decided to attempt to put this on the screen and transformed this series based on the strengths of the actors.  Unlike most folks, I have a much more negative and visceral reaction to GRRM's inability to continue his series.  He has set in motion a horrible practice of sci-fi fantasy authors/publishers not finishing series (see. Patrick Rothfuss) or delaying the release.   GRRM should have hired/worked with another writer (e.g., brad stephenson) to get his ideas shaped into a way to continue/finish his story.  D&B's ending is 'just' more fall-out from GRRM's decision to invest his time and energy into other projects that do not involve Westeros.  Overall, D&B did a spectacular job of covering an unfinished science fiction fantasy series.   YMMV.

I don’t blame D&D for playing to the actors’ strengths. They knew that Kit was gold in action scenes but not much else. They knew that Richard Madden was hot and charismatic and that people wanted to see more of him. They knew that Peter and Lena were great friends and had fantastic chemistry. They knew that Alfie could pull off pretty much everything they threw at him. They knew that Charles Dance improved every scene he was in. Playing to all that was smart.

I do think the actors did start to influence how the TV characters were written in some cases. TV Tormund is basically Kristofer Hivju according to the cast, down to the bonecrunching hugs and sense of humour. Rory McCann is a loner of few words. And of course Pod’s prowess with the ladies started out as a nod to Daniel Portman being a bit of a Casanova in real life. So over time, the writers were influenced by the actors and what they brought to the roles as much as anything else. Maybe with another actress who played Cersei as more of a straight-up villainess, the writers wouldn’t have been as interested in Cersei.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Eyes High

[Stallion12]

4 hours ago, dreamcatcher said:

There’s no build up for Sansa on the throne as opposed to King Bran?

Satisfying doesn’t mean we get what we wanted. Robb was always my favorite, I can’t rewatch the red wedding because it kills me everytime BUT it was “satisfying” in the sense that it made sense and I loved seeing the aftermath. This mess?

Bronn the amoral sellsword who became somewhat tolerable through his friendship with the Lannister boys turned on them to get a castle. He did get Highgarden aka the most prosperous castle and sits on the council while we never saw him give a crap for anyone but himself. Yet Danny had to be neutralized and Jon sent to the north. And with Jon, I never cared about him but we had all these prophesies and spent so much time on his parentage reveal for what? Him taking the black because he technically killed the Queen who usurped him? Greyworm wouldn’t be checking up on westeros to make sure Jon is in exile. And why is Tyrion who was a bigger traitor still alive and on the council? And don’t forget that book!Tyrion isn’t that good so no, having another Lannister on the throne (technically speaking) isn’t satisfying. Danny saying one season “i’m not here to burn your cities” and do just that because people don’t love her when she never tried to get people on her side, isn’t satisfying. The Iron Throne somehow survived? And Drogon sees his dead mother and just nopes out? The dothraki can be reasoned with and they just nope out to go liberate slaves? A dragon getting killed in such a stupid manner, all battle tactics being ridiculous, a robot who doesn’t care about being a lord of whatever and doesn’t use his knowledge to help anyone on the throne isn’t satisfying. I’d rather have NK winning and wiping out westeros at this point. 

All these points may work for the books (which I doubt at this point but anyway), but not for the series. They needed more time to tell this story and actually, because of their decision to rush the final season it’s like we’ve been watching a different show. GOT never was all about the big battles. We had one or two per season and then spent the rest of the episodes getting to know the characters and their motivations. This season feels like a cheap action movie version of GOT.

Thats how i feel about this season.

[loki567]

32 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I don’t blame D&D for playing to the actors’ strengths. They knew that Kit was gold in action scenes but not much else

I think you can blame them for casting him though. And maybe, just maybe, his character wouldn't have been so horrible if literally every one of his scenes wasn't him making a mess that other characters have to clean up. 

I reject the idea that they were doing the right thing in so obviously playing favorites. Lena Headey's good, sure. But there are plenty of good actors in this series. She wasn't so good that it was justified in Cersei completely consuming other parts of the story, including Jaime's entire character arc. 

But that's not really a Cersei-only problem either. There are plenty of instances of writers playing favorites and giving their favs screen-time that wasn't needed or storylines that should have gone to somebody else. 

Jon definitely got it worst, as everything was stripped from him until only a dufus remained. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by loki567

[QuinnM]

34 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

They knew that Kit was gold in action scenes but not much else.

I got a first hand review of Kit on stage and turns out that it was only D&D that thought he was good for not much else.  My friend has seen this particular play about a million times, True West, and declared Harrington one of the best she’s seen.  So not sure why we never got that depth on GoT but apparently its there.

Edited May 19, 2019 by QuinnM

[Umbelina]

I wish I could remember which panel it was (Comic Con maybe?) but something really stood out to me on one of them, and then something the actor playing Samwell complimented that as well.

Kit Harrington said something that implied he would be or was (?) happy to be also doing another work (play/something) where he was actually encouraged to talk and emote.  He basically said that mute/confused Jon was following the direction they gave him, and though he said all of that in a humorous way?  It was a funny/not funny response that (to me) clearly said, "Hey, I can act, but was consistently asked to be vague."  He also talked about wearing clothing that weighed over 40 pounds, along with the cold of Iceland wilderness shoots being difficult, so his director telling him to act that way wasn't difficult.

Then the Samwell guy, I think this was in a televised interview, was talking about shooting in 40 degree below freezing weather.  He said he, and others, couldn't even feel their faces, let alone control lips to speak much if at all.  He goes on to say that all the things actors need to control, voice, breath, facial expressions were severely limited by the shooting conditions. 

I think Kit did fine at being Jon, but perhaps by the time he was away from those limiting/difficult conditions?  The directors were used to numb Jon, and didn't give him meaty dialogue. 

I also wonder if they were playing the whole "he's dead" thing, ala Beric.  Beric saying each death left him "less than" he had been before.  Who knows?

The writers should have given us that scene with Arya/Sansa/Jon/Bran REALLY talking about this massive reveal.  They should have given him a love story beyond "Jon's in love with her." over and over again being said by other characters, or CGI "love" or waterfall "love" and one lovely shot with his butt featured more that emotion/words.

I'll have to see him in something else to buy into "dude can't act."

[WearyTraveler]

27 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

I got a first hand review of Kit on stage and turns out that it was only D&D that thought he was good for not much else.  My friend has seen this particular play about a million times, True West, and declared Harrington one of the best she’s seen.  So not sure why we never got that depth on GoT but apparently its there.

I live in London and saw Kit performing Faustus, he was good in it. 

[Advance35]

Quote

I got a first hand review of Kit on stage and turns out that it was only D&D that thought he was good for not much else.  My friend has seen this particular play about a million times, True West, and declared Harrington one of the best she’s seen.  So not sure why we never got that depth on GoT but apparently its there.

I think it's more the portion of the story.

You've got the Night Watch, with Samwell, Wildlings and Wrights, against Kings Landing with Cersei, Tywin, Tyrion, Joffrey, Sansa, Varys, Littlefinger, Margaery, Olenna, Loras, Bronn, Shae, Oberyn, Ellaria and Jamie.

I think the latter and the characters that spent considerable time in that location, became their favorite portion of the show to write about and it's hard to blame them.  If you look back through the season's, that's the portion the show that garnered the most conversation online.

Even the bottle episode, where Jon had to fight the wildlings at the Wall and we didn't see any other location, everyone wanted to get. back to the other storylines (the one's centered on intrigue and political maneuvering).  This is something very prominent in book forums as well.  I'm not surprised the writing skewed in that direction.

[catrice2]

 I have to disagree. I think that the mark of a true Actor is someone who transcends the  Material and the conditions that are  given to them. The biggest mistake that they can make however is letting their personal feelings about that material influence how they communicate it on the screen.  I think some of his was also not loving the material but that is an opinion not based on anything.I will however amend my previous statements to say that kit harington was not a strong Actor in this series but to be fair to him I don't think he was the only one. I do keep in mind that for  many of these people this was their 1st real job and others the first  big scale successful one so considering that I think they did a respectable job.  Am I anxiously waiting to see them in something else? No..well maybe Nicholas because I am shallow and he is cute..but he probably will not do much that will be seen stateside.

[milizard]

All the actors have to work with is what the directors are willing to put on the screen.

[Soup333]

Martin’s in a bit of a pickle now. It’s assumed this is his ending, though we don’t know that for certain and he said things might change. So if he never finishes, that assumption won’t be challenged and this is how it ends. If he finishes and it ends differently folks might say he changed it because D&D’s version went over like a lead balloon. 

If I were him I would have let them craft their own ending and kept mine under wraps. 

[BitterApple]

6 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

If I were him I would have let them craft their own ending and kept mine under wraps. 

I would've too. I think D&D would've done a better job creating the ending from scratch rather than try to shoehorn GRRM's outline into six episodes. 

[Chiny11]

Hi all, 

Any new leaks?

After Dany is stabbed to death, are we to expect a  "I did not see that coming" twist? 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Chiny11

[stagmania]

11 hours ago, Solace247 said:

That’s fine if you think it makes sense—it’s there’s in bullet point form, but then, so was Jonerys baby. To me, bullet points aren’t television they’re PowerPoint presentations. 

Yes! The foreshadowing conversation around Dany has been driving me nuts, because guess what? They foreshadowed all kinds of stuff that ultimately didn't happen. To name just a handful things the show set up for the final season and then dropped:

• Dany would get pregnant
• Jon being Aegon Targaryen would be hugely consequential to the plot
• Arya would take out a big villain using a Face
• Bran would use his powers to guide the fight
• Tyrion would be in love with Dany/envious of Jon
• The Golden Company would be a fierce obstacle
• Cersei would attack/double cross the northern army while they fought the NK
• The Army of the Dead would be the ultimate existential threat to humanity 

And this is just the stuff they set up in season 7, let alone the years of loose ends from before that. This story is a big old mess.

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

They knew from the beginning that Daenerys wasn't getting the throne. That wasn't their idea. It was GRRM's. 

Well, no - they knew from before season 5 began. At which point, they should have said either 1) oh shit we've been writing her as a feminist hero, we better start building to her losing it over the next few seasons , or 2) oh well we prefer her the way we've written her, so we're not going to use her book ending. Instead they kept writing her the same way and then tacked the book ending on anyway. Appalling writing choice.

3 hours ago, Azi said:

If only we all had listened to Jojen several seasons back. He told us it was all about Bran. Only true prophet etc etc. 

The funniest thing to me is that they were told GRRM's ending between seasons 4 and 5. So right after they were told that Bran would be King in the end, they wrote an entire season in which he doesn't even appear.

2 hours ago, dreamcatcher said:

Dany has awful advisors who have betrayed her but she is paranoid for no reason? Cersei has loyal advisors even though she is a despicable human being with no right to the throne whatsoever. If they had portrayed Dany’s camp as capable and loyal and her being paranoid for no reason, I could buy the whole turning mad storyline. She has every right to be paranoid in her situation though and according to the spoilers, she lets her guard down for Jon and that’s what gets her killed. While the other monster of the series at least died with her lover next to her.

Exactly this. If they wanted to truly lay the groundwork for her losing it, the choice to have Dany be consistently right and her advisors be consistently wrong was a baffling one.

44 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I also wonder if they were playing the whole "he's dead" thing, ala Beric.  Beric saying each death left him "less than" he had been before.  Who knows?

I thought for awhile that this is what they were going for with Jon, but it never came to anything. Add Jon's resurrection to the list of plot points that never got any kind of satisfying resolution or follow through or even appeared to matter to the story. 

I was out with a big group of friends last night who were discussing the show and predictions for the finale. Everyone in the group thought this season has been awful and expects the finale to suck. The main prediction was that Arya would kill Dany using a Face and that Jon would end up ruling, because "they have to use that, right!"

[chrisvee]

4 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I was out with a big group of friends last night who were discussing the show and predictions for the finale. Everyone in the group thought this season has been awful and expects the finale to suck. The main prediction was that Arya would kill Dany using a Face and that Jon would end up ruling, because "they have to use that, right!"

Gonna be a lot of surprised people.

[BooBear]

2 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

Gonna be a lot of surprised people.

I cannot wait for the reaction. What kept me going for way too long was the idea that the next episode would fix things... once I got to the finale spoilers I was furious and realized this was it. So I feel like 1/2 the fan base will explode. 

[Umbelina]

I'm going to put this here because they do discuss leaks and spoilers.

(the ones we already have, not new ones)

Basically, a rant about this episode, and the whole season bombing from episode 3 on.  They lack of things paid off for the series, etc.