S34.E08: There's A New Sheriff In Town (Double Episode)

[NutMeg]

So, thoughts:

- Why would Cirie go for the second most wanted target instead of for either the head or the lieutenant of the opposite alliance? This right here makes me thing that she was never robbed before! Parvati for sure would have gone for the biggest thread, and would have secured close to eternal gratitude from Hali in the process.

- Still, the Cirie/Michela scene was very good. 

- Zeke wants to play big rather than play well. And so does Debbie.

- Sad to see Ozzy go on a sour note (losing his track record, etc.). Idiotic to vote him out when he obviously is a player loosely allied to all and really a singleton in the game (see Hali) and no strategic threat. Although, serves him right for not following Sandra's advice :)

- Hali is likely to start a very nice jury, so there's that.

- How sadistic is the show willing to go? forgo the merge feast, really? At least, there were no hidden II in the food the time.

- Andrea still has it, physically and strategically. You go girl, I'm rooting for you.

- Speaking of, I liked that Troyzan automatically reverted to his professional self when he saw her emerging from the water. And I like that she then stumbled and fell. Andrea might have the look of a model but for the most part she is a very down-to-earth person who react with self consciousness when being "photo-ed" when she's not expecting it. Otherwise, I cannot hate on him, he's like a big doofus who's quietly enjoying himself this season - and looking good at it too, better than many men much younger than him.

- And while we're on big doofuses, I really cannot see anything to hate about Brad. Maybe he's pushing his earnestness to the fore, but he wouldn't be able to do for so many days it if it didn't exist. And it's not as if his confessionals showed another persona that what we see in the game. I think he's playing a decent game so far, although it still remains to be seen how the people he's counting on now will deliver later. For my money, I would have kept likely loyal Ozzy rather than unpredictable Tai the idol whisperer. But hey, I have no dime in the game. And based on a secret scene a few episodes ago, Brad is far from underestimating Tai, he might actually be overestimating him: he sees him as a super intelligent dude who hides behind a humble demeanour, as opposed to people to claim to be all that but are not very clever. (That what I remember in a ballpark, not quoting verbatim, that was from when they were still on the same tribe.)

- Sierra is - not interesting me much. On paper, she's not playing a bad game, but there's just something off. I don't know what it is.

- I'm slowly warming up on Sarah because she has some hilarious confessionals and faces without even realising she does.

1 hour ago, fishcakes said:

The first episode is why I think the "Cirie is a mastermind" thing is a myth. I can't tell what the alliances are because everyone seems to be talking to everyone, but it looks like the cores are Brad/Sierra vs. Andrea/Cirie with everyone else at varying levels of being up for grabs. Cirie knew the plan was to split the vote between Hali and Michaela and she knows that Hali is on the outs with Brad/Sierra. If the vote is split, it seems like that gives her an opportunity to gather up a majority to vote off one of Brad or Sierra. At that point it looked like Cirie, Andrea, and Zeke were tight, Michaela and Hali were obviously looking to save themselves and get into an alliance, Ozzie and Sarah seemed to be more inclined to go with this group than with the other side, and Aubry looks open too (although I think she's wanting to work with Brad, she's pragmatic enough to go with the other group if she can't be in his inner circle). That's a potential eight on Cirie's side and only five who are likely to be committed to a split vote. I can't believe Cirie didn't try to work that harder. She kept saying that voting off Michaela solidifies the other side's majority, but so does voting off Hali. She saved Michaela, but didn't strengthen her overall game position.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say, but you explained it better! and with more details :)

1 hour ago, sadiegirl1999 said:

I loved how Debbie mentioned Exile.

Which brings me to...why was that a one-off? (As far as we know). I think someone posted that week that it was more for Debbie to not have a mental breakdown.

I have a feeling most twists will be one-offs this  season - like the idol at challenge, the idol(s) hidden at camp, the Exile experience. Probably to keep these so-called game changers on their toes. Although no idea what the next one could be.  

[Eolivet]

1 hour ago, Rachel RSL said:

A perfect example is when Michaela was referred to as intelligent last season and a lot of people here claimed it was casual racism, as if Jay or whoever couldn't believe a black female was actually intelligent. But, in reality, Michaela has just layed out (laid out?) a well-thought out strategy and showed Jay, step by step, how it was going to work. She is intelligent and the fact that she showed herself to be an intelligent strategist is why she was voted out.   Until I came here to the boards, I never would have guessed that calling someone intelligent was some sort of coded racist insult.

This is my fault, and if so, I apologize. I made the comment not that Jay called Michaela intelligent, but that he (and Will) kept saying it, like, over and over again (I'm guessing the transcript of the conversation would be vaguely hilarious: "And she's intelligent!" "Dude, she's so intelligent!" Hello, captains redundancy!) You say it once and it's a compliment. You say it like, seven times and it starts to feel like you're trying to cover for something. To be clear, I don't think Jay (or Will, but particularly Jay) is racist at all. This was more in the context of the millennials being very self-aware about perceived racism to the point that they had to keep complimenting her over and over, because they knew very well how it might look. I just thought they overdid it, and made themselves look worse. Say it once: "We have to get rid of her because she's intelligent and a threat." Nothing weird about that.

I do stand by the idea, however, that Sierra calling Michaela "blunt" and "shifty" -- behavior she seems to tolerate in other players, particularly white men -- is coded language. Not that she herself is racist, but her language was. Intentional or not. There's a reason it's called casual racism.

[Alapaki]

2 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

2 hours ago, Alapaki said:

 Varner shouldn't be precluded from making the argument because Zeke was closeted, unless he was specifically making the argument because Zeke was closeted.

That is exactly why he was specifically making that argument.

Right.  I was specifically contrasting Varner's statements with what I perceive to be Sierra's.  

1 hour ago, ShadowSixx said:

Zeke is like Cass, wants to make big moves just for the sake of making big

I also think Zeke is extremely cognizant of what will get him airtime/invited-back.  It's like the way some players automatically step into the "role" which casting assigns them, be it "blue/white/no collar", "gen-x/millennial", etc.  In this case, it seems like most of these folks are drinking the "game changer" Kool-Aid.  And, based on history, I'd say Zeke is particular inclined to play along with TPTB's script.

[ICantDoThatDave]

Quote

I do stand by the idea, however, that Sierra calling Michaela "blunt" and "shifty" -- behavior she seems to tolerate in other players, particularly white men -- is coded language. Not that she herself is racist, but her language was. Intentional or not. There's a reason it's called casual racism.

Didn't she say pretty much the exact same thing about Zeke, though?

[Ms Blue Jay]

15 hours ago, kikaha said:

Well,  for my money, Debbie was the star of the second hour.  She flipped the narrative on its ass, and got Ozzy booted out of nowhere.  As poorly as she played several episodes ago, she reversed that 180 degrees.  Even sucked up to Brad. 

I still can't imagine she wins, but this episode was a major leap forward for her. 

But why is that good?  What is the value of that?  

Debbie booted Ozzy -- so the fuck what?  I agree with @truthaboutluv on this, which should not be a surprise, as I think I spoke about something similar in the episode before last -- booting Ozzy does what, exactly?  Ozzy is a loyal number, a provider, and no strategic threat.  It's been proven three times before this one.  What more do you want?  Seriously - what more in a Survivor contestant could you literally want?  He's an ally, he's the strong, silent (read: Not Annoying type), the exact type you'd be able to spend hours of boredom with.  He is the perfect Survivor that you'd want around.  It's totally ridiculous.  This will sound insulting, but it's like getting rid of the rice.  Okay.  You got rid of the rice.  Except that this rice is great at reward challenges and can even win you more rice. What a huge move!  Not.  

Everyone talks about how Ozzy has a bad social game.  I don't even think it's bad.  It's fine.  It's his strategic game that needs work.  He got along with everyone, worked with anyone and he lasted past the merge despite being everyone's Survivor hero.  Socially I'd say not bad.  Not so bad.  

I wish Tai was a little more like me and would do something crazy to save Ozzy.  I honestly thought that would happen.  I would keep Ozzy around until the end, first of all yes because I love him, but also because I would think I'd be able to beat him at FTC.  Which is the point.   Yes, Debbie is likely less popular than Ozzy so maybe it wouldn't be in her interest to sit with him at the end.  But to boot him one challenge after the merge?  Uh.   

Edited April 20, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[simplyme]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

I am loving Cirie.  I like her demeanor and I thought it was great that she was giving Michaela some help.  Michaela is stubborn and hotheaded and I thought it was great that someone finally sat her down and told her how she comes across.  Cirie showing Michaela what the "Michaela face" looks like was priceless.  Michaela has probably always had a chip on her shoulder, and I'm glad that when an older "black American female" gave her advice, she actually seemed to listen.  Had anyone else said to her what Cirie did, I'm sure Michaela would have been all "ain't nobody gonna tell me what to do".  Let's see how long the enlightened Michaela lasts.

There's a book called Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria? that I read years ago. It did a good job of explaining that people spending time with others who have had some of the same experiences they have had is pretty much a normal psychological reaction in life. (Yes, I'm way oversimplifying.) I think Michaela's willingness to talk more freely with Cirie and take her advice is because Michaela knows that Cirie shares a lot of the same cultural characteristics.

It also isn't that Michaela doesn't know some of what her problem is. What she needed was the support of someone she identified with to tell her "I was like that. You can change." Hearing that she needs to not show her emotions (which she already knows) from someone she doesn't have a lot in common with can come off as condescending criticism, even if it's true and well-meant.

[KimberStormer]

1 minute ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

But why is that good?  What is the value of that?  I'm just speaking rhetorically here and I apologize in advance for that probably very annoying conversational device.

Debbie booted Ozzy -- so the fuck what?  I agree with @truthaboutluv on this, which should not be a surprise, as I think I spoke about something similar in the episode before last -- booting Ozzy does what, exactly?  Ozzy is a loyal number, a provider, and no strategic threat.  

He's a number on the other side that you might not get to vote out later because he could win all the immunities.  Ozzy's one of the few challenge threats who excels at both team and individual immunity.  In South Pacific he won a thousand challenges in a row.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Maybe I'd feel different if Debbie articulated any of that, instead of just spending the entire episode with a shit-eating grin on her face because she seemingly randomly wanted to boot Ozzy just because it was her decision.  I could see that reasoning more if Debbie was any challenge threat herself, but I think even she realizes she is not.  I still think Ozzy would be pretty weak at FTC, but then again who would be weaker between the two of them.  Probably Debbie.

I've also read a bunch of posts that say: Stop bringing Ozzy back, he can't win.  I don't think any producers are under any impression that he can win.  He's just popular.  He is obviously otherworldly awesome at one particular aspect of this game, and I know that there must be more than just a few of us out there who enjoy watching that.  

Edited April 20, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Alapaki]

6 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

He's a number on the other side that you might not get to vote out later because he could win all the immunities.  Ozzy's one of the few challenge threats who excels at both team and individual immunity.  In South Pacific he won a thousand challenges in a row.

I agree.  IMO, it would be very risky to have Ozzy at FTC.  Although he's never won, he's come damn close.  Closer than his strategic/social game warranted, IMO.  But, as with Boston Rob, at some point the "it's his turn" argument might work.  At this point, you don't know who's going to be on the jury.  So we don't know what sort of player they'll reward.  But you can't rule out the possibility of a plurality of jurors voting for Ozzy on that basis.  And you certainly can't rule out Ozzy making an IC run and getting to FTC.  Jurors cast the votes that make them feel the best.  Sometimes it's to reward someone.  Sometimes it's to punish someone.  But, IMO, keeping Ozzy around was a risk.  By contrast, being able to say that you "masterminded" the move to get this "super-Survivor" (according to Probst and Burnett, at least) out is a solid FTC argument for Debbie.

[Ms Blue Jay]

15 hours ago, Artsda said:

What has Cirie done this game? She's horrible at challenges and puzzles.  It's like they're dragging her to the end.

1.  Cirie is literally the best player in this cast at puzzles.  I thought that's been proven almost every challenge so far, except this last one where she cried.
2.  Cirie has never gone to tribal before the merge. She's never been in a tribe that's lost immunity.  Why?  Because she's amazing at puzzles and always designated to do them.  Cirie is practically the Ozzy of puzzles.  She's POzzles.  
3.  Cirie set out to save Michaela as her lieutenant, somebody that moronic Sierra hates for no reason, and lambs like Aubry will pile on against when the going gets incredibly easy, and both changed Michaela's supposed 'exterior' and saved her as promised.  In doing so, she got rid of one of Sierra's supposed potential lieutenants in Hali.

The only negative thing that Cirie did so far in the game was, stupefyingly enough, get outplayed by Debbie this episode.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[simplyme]

35 minutes ago, NutMeg said:

Why would Cirie go for the second most wanted target instead of for either the head or the lieutenant of the opposite alliance? This right here makes me thing that she was never robbed before! Parvati for sure would have gone for the biggest thread, and would have secured close to eternal gratitude from Hali in the process. 

Cirie appears to be practically leading one alliance and yet still working the other side just in case. She's very good socially and works her way in with people.

We saw Cirie talk to Sierra about changing the majority vote from Michaela to Hali with the argument that if Hali had the idol, it was important to flush it. She then made sure no one knew her real reasons for changing the vote were to save Michaela by voting for Michaela (as assigned or volunteered). She also made sure Michaela did not change her vote from Zeke, which would give away that she knew something.

Had Cirie banded together with Andrea, Zeke, Ozzy, Michaela, Hali, Aubry, and Sarah to take out Brad or Sierra, she might have tipped her hand and become a target. The scurrying to put that together definitely would have been noticed, and there are three unplayed idols out there. Most people think Tai has one.

Cirie is good at this game precisely because she goes for the subtle move to remove opponents instead of Zeke's Big MoveZ Rawr!

I'll also add that although Hali seems nice, no one really seemed connected to her. If you don't have a single ally, it may be better to take you out than worry about keeping you as one of my numbers.

[Eolivet]

4 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

1.  Cirie is literally the best player in this cast at puzzles.  I thought that's been proven almost every challenge so far, except this last one where she cried.

I love ya, @Ms Blue Jay, but I think Zeke is the puzzle master of this cast. The green tribe never lost an immunity when he did puzzles either, and he bested Cirie at this puzzle. When Cirie and Zeke were separated, I think Zeke often beat her at puzzles -- likely because he had a huge head start from Ozzy's initial dominance.

Cirie's social game is far superior to Zeke's, however.

[Ms Blue Jay]

No --- there was specifically a challenge where Cirie and Zeke - the Puzzle Dream Team - were finally split up, and then CIRIE won at the puzzle, besting Zeke.

And this episode, it was reversed.  I'm pretty confident about this and I commented on it when it happened.  

I don't think Zeke can be called the puzzle master yet.  He beat Cirie once so far that I can count.

If Cirie kept losing at puzzles versus Zeke, then how come she had never been to Tribal Council........ we all know that Zeke ended up there.

Thanks for the love, though ;)

Edited April 20, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Bryce Lynch]

19 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

I agree.  IMO, it would be very risky to have Ozzy at FTC.  Although he's never won, he's come damn close.  Closer than his strategic/social game warranted, IMO.  But, as with Boston Rob, at some point the "it's his turn" argument might work.  At this point, you don't know who's going to be on the jury.  So we don't know what sort of player they'll reward.  But you can't rule out the possibility of a plurality of jurors voting for Ozzy on that basis.  And you certainly can't rule out Ozzy making an IC run and getting to FTC.  Jurors cast the votes that make them feel the best.  Sometimes it's to reward someone.  Sometimes it's to punish someone.  But, IMO, keeping Ozzy around was a risk.  By contrast, being able to say that you "masterminded" the move to get this "super-Survivor" (according to Probst and Burnett, at least) out is a solid FTC argument for Debbie.

I agree that Ozzy could have been a threat at FTC.  He would have been the guy who kept them fed.  Plus, if he made it by going on a big immunity run, as opposed to by blindsiding a bunch of people, he could  stay above the fray and avoid making jurors bitter against him.  

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, fishcakes said:

I wish the objection to the coded racism from players extended to the language that's been used about Tai for two seasons and to a lesser extent about Sandra and Ozzy as well. Ignorance of what constitutes racism is itself a form of racism. If Sierra, JT, or anyone else doesn't understand that what they're saying is racist, then it's because they don't want to know. The language that's problematic when applied to some groups of people but not others is not a secret to people who genuinely care about not being racist. No one is keeping it a secret. For people who don't care, that's their choice, but to justify it with, "I didn't know," "I've never heard that," "how am I supposed to keep up with what offends you people?" doesn't fly.

I care very much about not being racist, but I disagree completely with your suggestion that not being racist requires memorizing a list of negative adjectives that have a history of being connected to certain races by prejudiced people.  I think that contributes to keeping racism alive.

  After I was criticized for calling Tai sneaky (the man who gets up before dawn to search for idols)  I asked my husband if he had ever heard of Asians as a group being called sneaky.  He is career military and has lived in Thailand, Korea and Vietnam.  At first he said no, but then, after thinking about it, he said that he thought maybe some  people called the Japanese sneaky during WWII because of Pearl Harbor.  So I'm thinking, 70 years later that old prejudice remains in a few people's minds so that we can't call an Asian man on a game show "sneaky," even if he is.  That's sad to me. 

I refuse to fill my head with that sort of crap and I definitely don't think it's helpful toward a world where all people are treated equally. For one thing, it requires  keeping a constant awareness in mind, that the person you're talking about is a certain race, rather than just thinking of them as an individual,  and then it means  calling up all the old stereotypes, originated by racists, that they thought go with that race, (ugh) and finally weighing each word you speak so as not to seem to use any of those words. 

You believe that "not wanting to know" is a form of racism, but I believe  just the opposite. I believe that constantly keeping a connection in your mind between, for example, "Asian and sneaky" or "black and lazy," is a form of unconscious racism.  It keeps all that alive. I think we should try hard to forget those negative stereotypes if we've heard them, and if we were lucky enough not to have ever heard them then we certainly shouldn't search them out.  I think it's particularly unfortunate to call attention to those old stereotypes on the internet because lots of young people who never heard something like, "It's well known that sneaky is an Asian stereotype," has now heard it.  I called Tai sneaky because of his actions on the show and no young person reading the post would have thought it had anything at all to do with his being Asian until someone jumped on it. 

[Wings]

@JudyObscure.  Your posts on racism are exceptional.  Thank you.  This has been an irritation of mine for a very long time.  

ETA.  Sneaky Asians is a new one for me.  Good god.  

Edited April 20, 2017 by wings707

[colorbars]

6 hours ago, NurseGiGi said:

I wouldn't mind seeing a Cirie, Michaela, Andrea final 3.

This is my ideal final 3 right now. I know it's a pipe dream, but I'll still hope Cirie can pull off a miracle and Michaela and Andrea can win lots of immunities.

15 hours ago, Artsda said:

What has Cirie done this game? She's horrible at challenges and puzzles.  It's like they're dragging her to the end.

We haven't seen Cirie get to do much because she has been on the winning tribe all throughout the game so far. She never had to go to tribal council so how would anyone be "dragging her to the end"? Now it's merge, and people that aren't great at physical things are the perfect people to keep around. However, her social and strategic game is still going to make her a target even though she definitely won't be winning any immunity idols anytime soon. Also, she's great at puzzles.

3 hours ago, Dominii said:

My significant other is still a Cirie fan, but I thought her strategic game last night was really lacking. She threw her vote away by voting against Sierra (or was it Aubrey)? Ozzy might still be here if it weren't for those stupid nowhere votes

No, Ozzy still would've gone home. Debbie still would've played her extra vote and Ozzy still would've had more votes than Zeke.

21 minutes ago, simplyme said:

Cirie appears to be practically leading one alliance and yet still working the other side just in case. She's very good socially and works her way in with people.

We saw Cirie talk to Sierra about changing the majority vote from Michaela to Hali with the argument that if Hali had the idol, it was important to flush it. She then made sure no one knew her real reasons for changing the vote were to save Michaela by voting for Michaela (as assigned or volunteered). She also made sure Michaela did not change her vote from Zeke, which would give away that she knew something.

Had Cirie banded together with Andrea, Zeke, Ozzy, Michaela, Hali, Aubry, and Sarah to take out Brad or Sierra, she might have tipped her hand and become a target. The scurrying to put that together definitely would have been noticed, and there are three unplayed idols out there. Most people think Tai has one.

Cirie is good at this game precisely because she goes for the subtle move to remove opponents instead of Zeke's Big MoveZ Rawr!

I'll also add that although Hali seems nice, no one really seemed connected to her. If you don't have a single ally, it may be better to take you out than worry about keeping you as one of my numbers.

This is what I was thinking as well. The big move people were hoping she'd make by pulling in both Hali and Michaela and taking a shot at either Brad or Sierra would've required a lot of scrambling and securing votes, and could've backfired and made her a big target. I just don't think there was enough time to pull it off, and Cirie has never been a player that goes for those big moves like Parvati was. Especially not when her reputation is already so big, she's not about to let herself be caught trying mastermind a huge thing and become a huge target. She has to stick to making smaller moves and lining things up as best she can for now.

[fishcakes]

This is the last thing I'll say on the topic since I think the discussion is ranging too far afield, but just in general, when people of color say that they find something offensive and try to explain why, I think a more useful response to that is try to understand what they're telling you rather than explain to them why you think they're wrong about how they feel.

[Tryangle]

5 hours ago, Alison said:

Even though Michaela alluded to it in the show, I thought this bears repeating: this is the first merge with 2 African-American women in 34 seasons.

Fascinating stat. I was tempted to argue Cook Islands, but then I looked it up and saw that Rebecca was voted out before the merge. With strong players like Cydney, Tasha, Cirie over the years, it's hard to believe we never got two to the merge before.

15 hours ago, absolutqt said:

Yeah, I don't mind the long sleeves or even long pants but I would need to have cotton cargo pants or something lighter than denim jeans!  I just think how damp and musty they must get and you just know they don't breathe at all.

Yeah, the long sleeves/pants would help in warding off the mosquitos and the like, but if they're heavy then good lord the sweat buildup would be intolerable.

4 hours ago, Alapaki said:

I agree re: Cirie.  I just don't understand why so many other players let her influence them.  I guess that's to her credit though.  I also noticed her catching herself before she remarked to Michaela about them both being black women.  And, as a pasty white guy my opinion shouldn't matter, but when Michaela made an explicitly racial argument for working the Cirie I thought it was a little borderline.

Because it's relatively rare for two black women to interact on this show, I think it's fair for it to have come up and shouldn't have been a problem for Cirie or Michaela to bring it up. Shared life experiences/attitudes, etc.

1 hour ago, meep.meep said:

Never went to tribal, that's what she's done this game.

Too bad we never got to see her and Sandra play together.

Michaela would have gotten a good treatment with Cirie and Sandra mentoring her, no doubt.

[piequinn35]

Sierra distracted Cirie in the puzzle that's why they lost hahaha, it should be Zeke vs Cirie one on one...

Why did Cirie vote Sierra? she said to stir up something, would Sierra ask everybody who voted her next episode and go after her next? What's the reason Zeke voted for Aubry?

[kikaha]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

But why is that good?  What is the value of that?  

Debbie booted Ozzy -- so the fuck what?  I agree with @truthaboutluv on this, which should not be a surprise, as I think I spoke about something similar in the episode before last -- booting Ozzy does what, exactly?  Ozzy is a loyal number, a provider, and no strategic threat.  It's been proven three times before this one.  What more do you want?  Seriously - what more in a Survivor contestant could you literally want?  He's an ally, he's the strong, silent (read: Not Annoying type), the exact type you'd be able to spend hours of boredom with.  He is the perfect Survivor that you'd want around.  It's totally ridiculous.  This will sound insulting, but it's like getting rid of the rice.  Okay.  You got rid of the rice.  Except that this rice is great at reward challenges and can even win you more rice. What a huge move!  Not.  

 

His first season, that 'rice' came one vote away from beating one of the most highly-thought of players ever (Yul) for the crown of sole survivor.  His second season, blindsiding him was a big key (maybe the biggest) towards Parv's victory.  The third time he played he came one immunity challenge away from winning the entire season. 

So even with all his social/strategic limitations, he's a major threat to go deep or win any season he takes part in.  And while he's out there, he's also a major threat to win ICs.  Everyone knows it.  Why do you think his name popped up at the last two tribals, as the default alternate boot?   

[cooksdelight]

If Debbie were smart (and we know there's no chance of that happening), she'd have said, "I found this special advantage gift when I was looking for an idol...." and have everyone scrambling as soon as they got back to camp.

Instead, she said it was found on Exile, which leaves everyone not caring a flip about her special treat.

[simplyme]

1 hour ago, fishcakes said:

This is the last thing I'll say on the topic since I think the discussion is ranging too far afield, but just in general, when people of color say that they find something offensive and try to explain why, I think a more useful response to that is try to understand what they're telling you rather than explain to them why you think they're wrong about how they feel.

This is my favorite essay that deals with essentially that:

http://therumpus.net/2012/05/peculiar-benefits/

And now I, too, will shut up on the topic. :) Thanks for a great discussion, though, folks.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Survivor Feels The Urge To Merge

The tribes converge, the gameplay ramps up, and there’s a surprising amount of nudity (and talk thereof).

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, fishcakes said:

This is the last thing I'll say on the topic since I think the discussion is ranging too far afield, but just in general, when people of color say that they find something offensive and try to explain why, I think a more useful response to that is try to understand what they're telling you rather than explain to them why you think they're wrong about how they feel.

Okay, with apologies to our tolerant moderator, I'll also say one last thing. (1) I rarely know the color of fellow posters on the internet, and (2) even if I did know that, say, " Fishcakes," was a person of color, I would not think that meant she spoke for everyone in the world with similar pigment. 

  I haven't told anyone how to feel.  I've talked about my own opinion as to the best strategy to end  racist stereotypes over the long term. 

[NodakFan]

3 hours ago, NutMeg said:

 

- Why would Cirie go for the second most wanted target instead of for either the head or the lieutenant of the opposite alliance? This right here makes me thing that she was never robbed before! Parvati for sure would have gone for the biggest thread, and would have secured close to eternal gratitude from Hali in the process.

I'm not 100% sure she had the trusted manpower to go after Sierra or Brad.

13 voters.  Ozzy / Andrea / Michaela / Cirie / Zeke (at that time) were locked.  In their eyes - Brad / Troyzan / Sierra / Tai / Debbie were locked.  That leaves 3 (Hali, Aubrey, and Sarah) unaccounted for.  Sarah was in their group,, but it appeared Aubrey was in Brads.  Cirie thought that they were getting rid of Michaela so that Hali would come to the other side, making it a 7 on 5 battle. So to Cirie, it seemed to be 6 v. 6 with Hali as the potential swing.

But - looking at the votes from the first tribal - Andrea, Cirie, Zeke, and Sarah were the 4 votes for Michaela.  Ozzy voted for Hali.  Even if the 6 had flipped - we would have a 6-6 tie between Hali and Brad/Sierra.  Now we have a tie, and Cirie's alliance is exposed.  Maybe she could have brought Hali in for a 7-6, but it was clear she didn't trust Hali, and thought Hali would go running to the other side.  

There's a lot of logic jumps out there, but I imagine being out there for 21 days, playing at the level you are in an all star season, can effect ones thoughts. 

[ItsJessMe]

4 hours ago, IgnoranceisBLISS said:

I have been trying to figure this out for the last three episodes!!!!!

(that was re this comment:

Quote

I don’t know how, but I didn’t notice Sierra’s eyebrows again until tonight. Now they’re bugging the hell out of me, & how is her manicure still perfect?

My guess is gel and acrylics.  Gel manicures basically don't chip, like, ever.  Mine are currently 3 weeks old and (except for being grown out) still look like I got them done yesterday, despite packing up and unpacking an entire kitchen in that time.  Yes, Sierra's will look a bit grown out but it's pretty hard to see that extra fraction of white space at the bottom of the nail unless the camera does a close-up of her hands.

Edited April 20, 2017 by ItsJessMe
forgot original quote

[Ms Blue Jay]

16 hours ago, princelina said:

In all fairness, Zeke's not a mindreader, and Culpepper's not a mastermind - that's pretty much why anyone would do that :)

Not why Tai did though in my opinion - we're talking about giving up the feast, right?

Everyone is asking "Why did Cirie vote for Sierra?"

Didn't Cirie simply say something during her vote like, "I'm just doing this to spice things up."

Cirie very deliberately wrote "Sierra" in BLOCK letters; I don't know why I'm capitalizing "block", it's just so funny how deliberately she did it.  She tried to make the S look straight, like this:  5 I E R R H  LOL!   

Cirie simply wanted to "throw a vote" at Sierra.  That's how I interpreted it.  To make Sierra kind of freak out after TC and say, "Who voted for me?"  "I'm the shit, I'm the Sheriff, I'm the motherfucking Deputy!"  Or what have you.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[simplyme]

Whoever made that Barney Fife comment... Thanks. Now all I can think is that Sierra needs to turn in her one bullet. :P

[peachmangosteen]

6 hours ago, Dominii said:

Wouldn't it be awesome, though, if a black woman actually won?

A black woman has won and she was pretty awesome. But I do agree that it would be awesome if more non-white women could win in general.

5 hours ago, blackwing said:

I agree with you that she was targeted because she and Michaela were the two on the outs... but if she knew that why didn't she try more to get in with one of the groups? 

According to her, she did try. She tried with Sierra/Brad and she tried with Cirie. None of them were biting.

5 hours ago, fishcakes said:

He (Troy) does make some hilarious faces, though; his look of panic at the pole challenge made me laugh out loud.

I am living for Troy's facial reactions to things in every ep. This was a good one, but what about his reaction to Debbie telling him they were voting out Ozzy? It was amazing! I could watch it over and over. In fact, I already have!

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

My theory is that Sierra's own paranoia and guilty conscience over knowing she was plotting to vote out Michaela made Michaela seem "shifty" to her. 

Bingo. I think this is often, if not practically always, the reason when people become so fixated on a target the way Sierra did with Michaela.

Edited April 20, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[fishcakes]

3 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Everyone talks about how Ozzy has a bad social game.  I don't even think it's bad.  It's fine.  It's his strategic game that needs work.  He got along with everyone, worked with anyone and he lasted past the merge despite being everyone's Survivor hero.  Socially I'd say not bad.  Not so bad.

I think Ozzy has a strange social game. He's just sort of cool with everyone, but not really friendly -- except with Amanda, with whom he was friendly to the point where I was kind of grossed out knowing how long it had been since either of them had brushed their teeth. People like him, but he doesn't inspire much loyalty from them. Maybe that could work to his advantage if he made FTC; if people don't feel like he was their friend for life or whatever, then they wouldn't be bitter if he had voted them out. 

5 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I am living for Troy's facial reactions to things in every ep. This was a good one, but what about his reaction to Debbie telling him they were voting out Ozzy? It was amazing! I could watch it over and over.

I'll have to watch that part over again. I missed Troy's reaction because I was too fixated on how Debbie seemed to be gnawing on everyone's ear during that sequence. It's hilarious the way she gets close enough to whisper but then talks at her normal louder-than-conversational volume.

[peachmangosteen]

Just now, fishcakes said:

I'll have to watch that part over again. I missed Troy's reaction because I was too fixated on how Debbie seemed to be gnawing on everyone's ear during that sequence. It's hilarious the way she gets close enough to whisper but then talks at her normal louder-than-conversational volume.

LMAO! Debbie is honestly a riot. That whole sequence had me rolling because of just what you said. But yes definitely go back and watch Troy's reaction because it's super funny.

[piequinn35]

Can someone make a giphy of Troy's reaction pls :xD

[Ms Blue Jay]

Dammit.  I totally missed this Troyzan thing.  I'll try to look online @piequinn35 but I can only do pics not gifs yet!!

I tried to take cute pics of Michaela and Cirie bonding.  It was a very heartwarming moment.  Such great television.   I watch a lot - A LOT of American television - and to see two black women bonding on such a popular TV show and speaking so openly about their upbringing and issues within the show really warms my heart.  It was kind of like a new school version of the Bechdel test.  Also, I loved the first tribal where Cirie's face was lit up by the torch flames and she was grinning so smugly.  That was some good Godfather editing (um, I've never seen the movie.)  Unfortunately the next episode kind of ruined it because she got outplayed.

One funny thing - there was a really funny moment where the women were sitting around bounding and the camera panned to Aubry and a massive amount of her hair was piled on top of her head like a huge fan or a cockatoo.  I tried SO HARD to capture that pic, but the moment was too fast.  

 

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[peachmangosteen]

4 minutes ago, piequinn35 said:

Can someone make a giphy of Troy's reaction pls :xD

If no one has by tomorrow I'll try to do it. I've never done it before, but there really needs to be a gif of it.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Searching around on Twitter I found the following pics, but no Troyzan

[peachmangosteen]

Aubry's hair is always a source of amusement. Also, in one of the earlier eps, she had an ensemble that I laughed at for honestly like a full minute.

It's nice that there's some things to still entertain me. 

[piequinn35]

Oh haha I laughed at Aubry's hair when I saw that on tv!

[jay741982]

20 hours ago, Wandering Snark said:

First of all I'd take Hali up on the strip search offer, ya know, just to take one for the team... oh and Andrea by the same token. They looked amazing tonight. I'm not one to go "Full Malcolm" on any Survivor females but yeah, that was my takeaway from tonight's episode.

I was drooling over how hot Andrea looked epically In the scene where Troy was pretending to take her photo. 

[mojoween]

As I was lamenting the ouster of Ozzy last night and my husband told me to stop because I was talking at dog whistle volume, it occurred to me that I treat this show like a sporting event.  I mean, these are just regular people, just like all of the rest of us except for a larger population of bartenders and pharmaceutical sales reps, so why I am rooting for one of them to win a million I will never have and loathing others is beyond me.

It's funny how we have these visceral reactions to people we have never met.

Sierra was on the Joe season with Hali?  What tribe was she on, white collar?  Why don't I remember this?

I've decided I like Troyzan and hope he goes far.  I am not liking Andrea, but that's for a reason I'll spill after the season in case I'm off-base.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Sierra = Blue Collar.  She aligned herself with the jerky guys like Dan and.............. I don't remember those tribes on the show either.  

[innocuouspuff]

6 hours ago, kikaha said:

Michaela's problem in Survivor is that her social game sucks.  She has no poker face.  She doesn't establish many close relations.  She often appears to be on patrol, trying to ferret out plots against her.  Black, white, or any color in between, that creates problems for you in this game.  People won't trust you.  They will want to boot you.  This has happened to Michaela two seasons in a row now. 

Cirie's basic message to her was the same thing many posters here at previously have been saying from the early part of last season.  Play it cool.  Don't wear your emotions on your face.  Calm down.  Instead of getting manipulated, start manipulating. 

Hali, btw, got voted out this episode.  So that behavior, to whatever extent she engaged in it, didn't work for her either. 

Not really up for trying to convince anyone that implicit bias is a thing. There are studies. It can be a thing even if it's not a good idea for anyone to ever be grumpy on Survivor. Even if it's not a thing, Cirie could still have intended that additional subtext because she personally believes it is a thing. Just saying how I read that scene based on knowing some similar experiences, and I think her advice was meant to extended to life in general. I named Hali because I found her frustrated face hilarious, but no one ever mentioned it. Her main social problem was that her original tribe got decimated (thanks, JT!)

Edited April 20, 2017 by innocuouspuff

[Ms Blue Jay]

There is a lot of talk about how difficult Michaela supposedly is, how blunt she supposedly is, her lack of poker face.  I don't recall any related scenes this season.  I recall her sort of freaking out a bit because her name was on the chopping block once.  Has there been anything else?

I agree, Hali's face-scrunching thing is a lot more extreme to me than Michaela's expressions.  Michaela always seems placid and laid back in scenes to me.  Either she does not speak much, or they do not show it.

My beloved Ozzy stomped around and kicked sand when Tai and Andrea screwed up on the challenge (that their team ended up winning) and I thought that was some poor sportsmanship.  I didn't mind all the big talk about the fish.  He still went fishing after he lost to Tai, too.  For all of the talk between Ozzy and Tai, Tai is the one who is always saying he'll vote out Ozzy (remember that crazy Tribal Council?) or that Ozzy is this huge threat.  Either Ozzy and Tai always had some secret understanding, or else Ozzy has only shown to be extremely tolerant towards Tai always targeting him and pointing him out as a kind of enemy number 1.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Rachel RSL]

That picture of the immunity necklace just reminded me of how disappointed I was when Jeff revealed it. I can't remember who it was but, earlier in the season, one of our hilarious posters said they hoped that the individual immunity was an old-time diver's helmet that they had to wear all through TC.  That image kept me laughing for days!

Edited April 21, 2017 by Rachel RSL

[peachmangosteen]

38 minutes ago, mojoween said:

I am not liking Andrea, but that's for a reason I'll spill after the season in case I'm off-base.

Boo! You can't say something like that and then be like 'oh I'll tell you about it later.' Unless it's spoiler related, then I'll accept it.

4 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

I can't remember who it was but, earlier in the season, one of our hilarious posters said they hoped that the individual immunity was an old-time diver's helmet that they to wear all through TC. 

I wanna say that was @fishcakes but don't quote me on it!

[Lamima]

52 minutes ago, mojoween said:

As I was lamenting the ouster of Ozzy last night and my husband told me to stop because I was talking at dog whistle volume, it occurred to me that I treat this show like a sporting event.  I mean, these are just regular people, just like all of the rest of us except for a larger population of bartenders and pharmaceutical sales reps, so why I am rooting for one of them to win a million I will never have and loathing others is beyond me.

It's funny how we have these visceral reactions to people we have never met.

Sierra was on the Joe season with Hali?  What tribe was she on, white collar?  Why don't I remember this?

I've decided I like Troyzan and hope he goes far.  I am not liking Andrea, but that's for a reason I'll spill after the season in case I'm off-base.

Sierra was on blue collar and didn't gel with her other blues. She was kind of the Hali of that season where they kept her around for the vote but she was not really a part of their alliance. That's what I remember of it...could be wrong.

[mojoween]

10 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Boo! You can't say something like that and then be like 'oh I'll tell you about it later.' Unless it's spoiler related, then I'll accept it.

That's the problem I have...I don't know if it is or isn't!  So I will be safe and keep my lips zipped until after the season, heh.

[Maggie Mae]

During the reward challenge the orange team lost a 'fish' out of their net while in the water and ONE team member, I can remember which female, was allowed to swim back alone to get it while her partner continued dragging the net towards the beach. Wasn't a big deal until Tai, on the blue team, missed one of his fish in the net on the beach. They had carried the pole/fish up the beach to the next stop only to have to BOTH go back to retrieve the wayward fish. It should have been allowed that one team member return for the fish. In the end it didn't matter since the blue team won but still!!!

[needschocolate]

37 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

During the reward challenge the orange team lost a 'fish' out of their net while in the water and ONE team member, I can remember which female, was allowed to swim back alone to get it while her partner continued dragging the net towards the beach. Wasn't a big deal until Tai, on the blue team, missed one of his fish in the net on the beach. They had carried the pole/fish up the beach to the next stop only to have to BOTH go back to retrieve the wayward fish. It should have been allowed that one team member return for the fish. In the end it didn't matter since the blue team won but still!!!

My hypothesis - The rules were that all the fish had to be on the pole before you could move the pole, and it took two people to move the pole.   The fish were supposed to be tied to the net in the water and, therefore, there wasn't a need for a rule about all the fish had to be in the net when you brought it to the beach, just that you had to have all the fish on the beach before they could start untying the fish from the net.    

My qualm is that they shouldn't have had the balance a block on your head challenge because Ozzy had won it both times that it had been played in the past.  I understand that they plan these challenges before the season starts, and that they can't know who would still be around by the time they get to the challenge, but they shouldn't pick a challenge that favors one player so much.  I am okay if they won once before, but twice and won it every time it has been played - which also means most (all?) of the other players never played it.  I was rooting for Tai, just because I thought it was unfair to have that challenge in the first place.  

[Kelda Feegle]

6 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

2.  Cirie has never gone to tribal before the merge. She's never been in a tribe that's lost immunity.  Why?  Because she's amazing at puzzles and always designated to do them.  Cirie is practically the Ozzy of puzzles.  She's POzzles.  

 

you could say she Cizzles?