S01.E06: Hagsploitation

[Drogo]

Quote

Hungry for another hit, Warner pressures Aldrich to bring the original team back together for a follow-up hag horror pic. Someone from Joan’s past poses a threat.

 

 

[Nancypants]

OMG JOHN WATERS! 

Enjoy a refreshing Pepsi- Cola

[Spartan Girl]

FUCK YOU, JACK WARNER. Cannot be said enough.

While it was fun watching Aldrich screw him over, I still don't feel a lot of empathy for him. If working with Joan and Bette was such a nightmare, he shouldn't have teamed up with Hedda to play them against each other. I was smiling like a motherfucker when his wife said she wanted a divorce.

Joan's own brother tried to blackmail her with a dirty movie she did? Yikes. What a family.

Joan and Bette reunited was passive-aggressive bitchery gone wild. Love how Mamacita was having none of it. It's interesting how she manages to both enable and manage Joan at the same time.

[voiceover]

Meh.

But I did love Bette's bracing "Buck up!" speech to Bob, when she found him weeping on the set.  Pure New England, and as fine & precise a "Bette" as Sarandon has given all series.  

And great stunt casting with John Waters as William Castle.  Because there's a straight line, if ever was.

Edited April 10, 2017 by voiceover

[Primetimer]

With Hollywood denying Bette and Joan anything but the trashiest roles, they decide to re-team with Bob Aldrich for a Southern gothic Baby Jane retread. What could go wrong?

View the full article

[Growsonwalls]

Wow another strong, if very Joan-centric episode. 

High points: Jack Warner is an asshole but dammit he made me laugh with the "If it's twilight for us it's midnight for them" episode. Aldrich telling Warner off was amazing though. "I came here to get my balls back."

The scenes between Joan and her brother were just sad. He was a total asshole but you can just tell that was one fucked up family and it's not a surprise Joan has that many insecurities.

Could have called the divorce.

Very little of Bette, and I'm sort of disconnecting from her again. It seems as if she's just there to act like the Boss Lady and come up with some witty one-liners. The writing for Joan is so much more sensitive. I hope they show us some of Bette's inner life as well. 

[formerlyfreedom]

I was thrilled to see John Waters! Such a fun cameo.

[TheOtherOne]

Fact-Checking Feud: Joan Crawford’s Rumored “Stag Film” and Her Sellout Brother

[benteen]

Quote

High points: Jack Warner is an asshole but dammit he made me laugh with the "If it's twilight for us it's midnight for them" episode. Aldrich telling Warner off was amazing though. "I came here to get my balls back."

That line made me laugh too.  Definitely glad when Bob smacked him down.

Another really good episode.  Been a fan of Raymond J. Barry since Justified so very cool seeing him pop up.  I just watched Sweet Charlotte today and very much enjoyed it.

[enoughcats]

A couple of scenes from the original Straight-Jacket

Recognize the wallpaper?

And recognize the dress?

Edited April 10, 2017 by enoughcats

[Mumbles]

I am a huge John Waters fan and squealed when I saw him but he has such a persona it's hard to imagine him play someone else.

The Warner scenes just make me realize what a great actor Tucci is. I think of his warm supportive husband in "Julie and Julia", and his loyal (and kind) second banana in "The Devil Wears Prada" and it's hard to remember it's the same actor.

I winced a little during the Hagsploitaton stuff because honestly, I harbored a little concern when I started watching this series that it might be exactly that. I watched the first season of American Horror Story and was really turned off by the exploitative sleaze and creepy misogyny. But I gave this a chance because I didn't think the caliber of these actors would go for something cruel or mocking of older women. There are some parts that do make me wince but all in all I am glad to took a chance.

I did love Bette's "buck up" speech to Aldrich. When the shit hit the fan, it seems like Bette was a good friend (like bailing out Victor Buono and nonjudgmentally giving him advice.)

From my quick googling, if there was a bigger bastard in Hollywood at that time than Warner, it was Zanuck. 

[GreekGeek]

I didn't realize at first that the blackmailer was Joan's brother. I wondered who that was in the hospital and didn't put it all together until Mamacita announced that he had died. I wonder whether the revelation of those stag films, if indeed they were Crawford's, would have been that big a deal at that late stage of her career. Or why she couldn't have blown them off with the old "I was young and stupid" defense, as Hopper suggested?

It's not that much fun to watch a boozy and weepy Crawford, and I gather there's more of the same and worse in the next episode. I did feel for  the shabby treatment of her,.  first by Castle (hey there, John Waters!), then by her brother, and finally by the folks in Louisiana. Was she really almost denied a hotel room until Bette intervened? Wow. I want to see more of what Bette has been doing since Oscar night.

I continue to find Bob the most sympathetic character, despite his pity sex with Davis a few episodes back. No surprise that his marriage ended, but seeing him in tears was heartbreaking. I did not catch that it was Davis whooping it up in his room; I thought it was just some random tootsie.

One thing I have not seen discussed is the wonderful use of 1960's music. Love that "The Great Pretender" was playing in the background in the "It's midnight for them!" scene.

[merylinkid]

That was the first episode that didn't have me totally engaged.   It was just blah.   Mostly because it was about the men arguing with each other.   Not nearly enough feud.   

But the best part was Joan calling Aldrich to say she arrived only to hear Bette in the background.  Woops.

The brother being an asshole cannot be noted enough.

[Valny]

52 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Meh.

But I did love Bette's bracing "Buck up!" speech to Bob, when she found him weeping on the set.  Pure New England, and as fine & precise a "Bette" as Sarandon has given all series.  

And great stunt casting with John Waters as William Castle.  Because there's a straight line, if ever was.

I didn't love this one and was pretty much meh on it too. Highpoint was the black and white simulation of the StraightJacket scenes. I found them hilarious and also awesome at the same time. Hilarious because I am thinking of Jessica Lange actually filming all these micro scenes, especially the ones where's she's yelling the dialogue. I saw that film, woo boy, not a good one.

[voiceover]

Ugh.  I was just remembering Joan's Sorry/Not sorry speech to Bette before the table read.

If La Belle Crawford ever did apologize to Davis, I call bullshit on her uttering that kind of 21st century non-apology that I loathe ("If I offended you...I'm sorry!").

[DasFlavorPup]

Speaking of "Strait-Jacket", here's a brief scene, which I REALLY hope was ad-libbed just for what Joan does at the end -  the "VWOOP" sound never fails to make me laugh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX2CfU9iD0A

[ThatsDarling]

3 hours ago, voiceover said:

If La Belle Crawford ever did apologize to Davis, I call bullshit on her uttering that kind of 21st century non-apology that I loathe ("If I offended you...I'm sorry!").

This is the same apology our current Leading Lady of Cinema, Jennifer Lawrence, gave after she boasted about rubbing her butt on sacred rocks in Hawaii. Famous people don't like admitting it when they're wrong.  

Was very impressed by Jessica Lange's acting opposite Mamacita at the top of the episode. Anger, sadness, and shame are what she tends to do best as a performer, and here she fused the three brilliantly. I wouldn't be surprised to see her add another Emmy to her award collection.

[chillenout]

I'm really enjoying Feud, but DAMN! Why so many commercial breaks? 

[HoboClayton]

I'm hearing some meh's.. But episode kept me hooked. At the end, I thought it had went by way too fast. This series has made me bounce like a lunatic back and forth about my feelings about Crawford. Craziest eyes ever though. 

[vb68]

Even with everything we see about her brother and whatnot, I have no idea how anybody put up with Joan. She's exhausting. I can't imagine dealing with her. Mamacita had the patience of a saint.  I would have bolted after the flowers thrown.  Those little presents really do make her seem so fake as well.

The first scene did make me think about how a lot of actors probably feel about being forced to play along at Comic Con and the like for PR.

Bette seems like she probably would had been fun to hang with, especially if you weren't competition.

Edited April 10, 2017 by vb68

[bmoore4026]

John Waters was a bit thin to be William Castle.

There she is, though.  There's the camp Joan Crawford all the drag queens are dressing up as.  Also, we got to see the Mommie Dearest Joan Christina wrote about.  However, Mamacita is a grown woman, not a scared little girl, and will not put up with that throwing shit bullshit.

Hedda Hopper sees herself as the Anthony Comstock of Hollywood and is not going to lose a wink of sleep over the harm she's done.  Nor does she have any scruples of ruining her "dear friend" Joan Crawford for a juicy story.  Bitch.

Well, here's the real Hedda Hopper doing the voice of the Mad Hatter in Hanna-Barbera's version of Alice In Wonderland:

Never knew Joan had a brother.

Loved the two guys with Jack Warner.  The silly part of me wished the one in the dark sports coat was named Ralph, if only for the obscure Animaniacs reference. 

Also loved Aldrich essentially telling Jack Warner to go fuck himself.  Aldrich has a backbone!  Yay!!!  But his wife is divorcing him.  Awww :(

Bette is not having anymore crap either.  She will be respected and is not going to put up with anymore of Joan or Aldrich's bullshit.  She was sympathetic toward Aldrich about the divorce, though, which is why she will always be the light to Joan's darkness.

[txhorns79]

Quote

If La Belle Crawford ever did apologize to Davis, I call bullshit on her uttering that kind of 21st century non-apology that I loathe ("If I offended you...I'm sorry!").

I think that kind of "non-apology, apology" existed in one form or another well before the 21st century.

[hoodooznoodooz]

8 hours ago, enoughcats said:

A couple of scenes from the original Straight-Jacket

Recognize the wallpaper?

And recognize the dress?

Geez, I think she's still incredibly stunning! They considered her a hag at this point?!?

[qtpye]

I finally have sympathy for Joan, after she seemed like a crazed jealous monster in previous episodes.  I knew to understand her, we had to see some of her horrible childhood and her good for nothing brother was a clever way to bring that in. 

He was so right about him not having a thing, except to black mail his much more successful sister, and going in for surgery like a pauper, but she still felt inferior and needed to impress him.  I have no idea if it is true to life, but Lange's Joan is nothing a heap of insecurities, who seems to have a talent for driving everyone away.

Was Joan really so strapped for cash, that she now had to take part in these horribly offensive exploitive movies?  I have no idea why the hell she would put herself through that if she was not desperate for money.  The misogyny was horrible and Warner was right about their appeal.  It was everyone laughing at the former beauty who thought she was too good for them brought low.  I hate that this genre was actually a thing.

Tucci's Warner is an amazing snake bastard and he should be nominated for an Emmy.

Why the heck would the hotel not recognize Joan Crawford, until Bette stepped in? 

[JohnnyGilda]

7 hours ago, DasFlavorPup said:

Speaking of "Strait-Jacket", here's a brief scene, which I REALLY hope was ad-libbed just for what Joan does at the end -  the "VWOOP" sound never fails to make me laugh.

That sound effect always gets me, too. Just the sight of Joan in that wig gets me. Strait-Jacket might not have been as good a movie as Psycho, but it's campy fun, while at the same time being almost as disturbing -- especially the climax. I'd definitely recommend it before Hush, Hush, Sweet Charlotte, which is great for seeing Bette and Olivia together, but still not as enjoyable.

[sugarbaker design]

2 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

John Waters was a bit thin to be William Castle.

He looked nothing like William Castle, JW was representing him in spirit only.  Ironically the severed head that rolled out from behind the curtain did look like William Castle, complete with shock of gray hair.

The New York Times coined 'hagsploitation'?  Gosh, these women never caught a break, they got it from all sides.

Favorite line:  "I've never been lucky."

Edited April 10, 2017 by sugarbaker design

[Blakeston]

43 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Was Joan really so strapped for cash, that she now had to take part in these horribly offensive exploitive movies?  I have no idea why the hell she would put herself through that if she was not desperate for money.

If she really owed Pepsi two million dollars (which would be about $16 million in today's money), she was lucky she was able to keep that house without doing more stag films.

[Florinaldo]

An enjoyable episode for me since it focused on how a movie comes together, even if some of the historical details may not be quite accurate, I wonder for example if JC truly readily accepted a deal that put her in an inferior position as compared to BD. It was very pleasant to see Warner getting up-ended, although Aldrich still comes across as a smaller caliber asshole (apparently hooking up with BD as JC is scheduled to arrive). I noticed a few problems with the chronology, the most glaring one being My Fair Lady and the mention of Lady in a Cage which both came out later, and I see other mistakes have been mentioned. They probably wanted to cram in as many examples as possible to buttress their theme for this episode, the waning years of a few careers and lives as they are nearing their sad end, compressing time to the detriment of factual accuracy.

I watched Strait-Jacket last week. JC rises miles above the so-so quality of the material; she reminds the viewer that she was a much better actor than she is usually credited with. Her performance is also much better than the lifeless caricature Lange provides in the opening montage for this episode. The extras on the DVD show she was not as dismissive towards this project as her comments in this episode let on; they might be more suited to Trog which she did a few years later. She goes through the wardrobe tests with professionalism and relaxes between poses, even smiling and cracking jokes with the crew (although there is no audio). She also was enough of a good sport to feature in a promotional featurette with Castle and Bloch, being escorted out at the end by each of the two guys sporting a very appropriate accessory. Milburn Stone wrote about the previous episode "They had faces then"; JC uses hers very efficiently in that flick, while in contrast Lange's portrayal over the whole series shows a face that seems baked into a single expression. JC even manages to overcome a number of overwrought scenes WC wrote and directed for her.

After watching WHTBJ you might think Aldrich is not the most subtle of directors, but in comparison to Castle he is as delicately sensitive as a Renoir or even an Ozu. WC often had to rely on his gimmicks to ensure box office success; the little plastic hatchets shown in last night's episode are quite a step down from fake skeletons floating over the audience or seats equipped with vibrating buzzers. The film is enjoyable, but still mainly shlock except for JC's and to a lesser extent Diane Baker's performance (you can also play "spot the actors who went on to greater things").

Skinny waif John Waters as burly William Castle? Stunt casting at its most absurd just for the sake of some commentary on a supposed parallel between the two directors. And JW did not even bother to shave his mustache.

They are spending a lot of time on Charlotte, probably as much as they did on Baby Jane, even though this production did not turn out quite the same way as the previous one. Which makes for a more crusty plot for the next episode(s) of course. Perhaps next time we'll get to actually hear the actress playing Agnes Moorehead instead of her just sitting at the table read.

 

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

Why the heck would the hotel not recognize Joan Crawford, until Bette stepped in? 

That did not feel right for me either; JC would be at least as well-known as BD and would have been expected by the hotel staff anyway. It seemed like an invented event to show once again one of the two women humiliating the other. Unless BD did indeed engineer the incident.

I liked the scene where BD stepped up to cheer up Aldrich's spirit. It partly made up for the two female stars being portrayed as unable to control their impulses to bitch on each other.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Florinaldo

[iMonrey]

The whole series is turning out to be surprisingly Crawford-centric - this episode in particular was very light on Susan Sarandon. Which is strange, considering that (from what I've read) Ryan Murphy is much more obsessed with Bette Davis than Joan Crawford, and even Jessica Lange apparently didn't bother to study much of Crawford's work. Yet more and more it feels like the story centers around Crawford while Davis is a supporting character. 

I think some of the timeline inconsistencies are unnecessary - the point they're trying to get across can be accomplished without mashing history. But I love the attention they pay to Crawford's wardrobe, always dressed to the nines wherever she goes. And I love how they keep reminding us that she makes a point of personalizing every conversation she has - calling everyone by name and asking about their spouses and children, even calling her accountant (or whoever she wanted to cancel that check for her) and telling him to give her regards to his wife whose name she knows. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

The whole series is turning out to be surprisingly Crawford-centric - this episode in particular was very light on Susan Sarandon. Which is strange, considering that (from what I've read) Ryan Murphy is much more obsessed with Bette Davis than Joan Crawford, and even Jessica Lange apparently didn't bother to study much of Crawford's work. Yet more and more it feels like the story centers around Crawford while Davis is a supporting character. 

I'm wondering if the focus on Crawford is because there's just more material from her life to mine for the purposes of the television show.  Maybe mid-60s Bette Davis just isn't all that interesting whereas mid-60s Joan has a terrible reputation (being drunk on the set of her film and television work, Pepsi-worship, child abuse) to live down? 

[AuntiePam]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

Why the heck would the hotel not recognize Joan Crawford, until Bette stepped in? 

If she hadn't seen Baby Jane or Strait-Jacket, she might not recognize someone who was a movie star before she was born.  1964 was before movies were routinely shown on TV, before VHS, before Turner Classic Movies. 

But yeah, it was a bit unlikely. 

[enoughcats]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

  I hate that this genre was actually a thing.

And I really hate that Hagsploitation was the name given to this episode rather than psycho-biddy, Grande Dame Guignol or even hag horror.  OK, so nobody can pronounce Grande Dame Guignol, but somehow it seems kinder.

48 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

WC often had to rely on his gimmicks to ensure box office success; the little plastic hatchets shown in last night's episode

I wish he had handed out printed cardboard hatchets, which would have implied both cheapness and would have been funnier (to me, at least).

24 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

The whole series is turning out to be surprisingly Crawford-centric -

I agree with Crawford being at the center, but it seems like Crawford in a Noh mask, so that we see only a fraction of what might have been.

[Blakeston]

I thought they'd already begun showing old movies on television regularly at that point. Pauline said that young people would come out to see Baby Jane because they'd watched Crawford and Davis's old movies on TV.

I can buy that someone wouldn't recognize Crawford, though. Celebrities often look quite different in person than one would expect. And some people just aren't focused on Hollywood. 

I, too, was expecting to see a lot more of Bette Davis than we've seen. I think Ryan Murphy's Davis-worship might actually be the reason we're not seeing more of her. With Crawford, he's willing to give us a warts-and-all depiction, which gives them so much material - like throwing things at Mamacita, haggling with family members who are blackmailing her over porn, and making a drunken fool of herself over and over again.

Whereas with Davis, he seems to want to depict her as a sassy old dame who had a prickly, competitive streak, but ultimately had a heart of gold. Which seems pretty kind. She was capable of being a lot more vicious than we've seen here. He left out the moment on Oscar night, after she'd returned home with her entourage, when someone said that Crawford looked good, and Davis literally held a knife to his chest.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Blakeston

[Joimiaroxeu]

"Hag movies." Ugh. Were they really called that by the general public or was that just a behind-the-scenes thing?

I know from checking IMDb that

Spoiler

Joan wasn't in Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte. So did Bette deliberately try to get Joan to quit the movie or was she just really rubbing in her status as Aldrich's new BFF?

Quote

Why the heck would the hotel not recognize Joan Crawford, until Bette stepped in?  

I think she was recognized but they just didn’t give a crap. At least not enough to treat her like visiting royalty.

ETA: not sure why an historical fact from over 50 years ago is a spoiler but okay then.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Joimiaroxeu
Spoiler tag added

[sugarbaker design]

8 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

So did Bette deliberately try to get Joan to quit the movie or was she just really rubbing in her status as Aldrich's new BFF?

There's way more to the story, I'm hoping they dive into it next episode.

[Inquisitionist]

43 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I know from checking IMDb

Spoiler

that Joan wasn't in Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte. So did Bette deliberately try to get Joan to quit the movie or was she just really rubbing in her status as Aldrich's new BFF?

 

Check the "real life" threads for more info... or wait until next week!  ;-)

[Growsonwalls]

I think that the reason the show focuses on Joan is because Bette didn't give much to work with. She was a vital woman who kept her sense of humor and chin up her whole life. Doesn't mean she didn't have issues but she did have a confidence and sense of self-worth. Her ungrateful daughter's book notwithstanding, Davis was apparently a loving mother, and Davis also supported her sister Barbara and her mother for their entire lives. 

Joan however with her abusive childhood, her passive-aggressive personality, and her alcoholism is simply a richer field to mine. We saw that in this episode. I did like the small touch of Joan ordering sheer stockings for the twins because bobbysox looked too childish. It's a small moment but it did show that Joan attempted to be a loving mother. 

[AuntiePam]

33 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I thought they'd already begun showing old movies on television regularly at that point. Pauline said that young people would come out to see Baby Jane because they'd watched Crawford and Davis's old movies on TV.

 

You might be right.  But I remember "Saturday Night at the Movies" being a big deal, and that the movies were fairly recent -- out of theaters, but not really old. 

Now I gotta go check my memory.  More frequent lately, since I'm in the hag stage myself.

ETA:  You're right, according to this link -- http://www.museum.tv/eotv/moviesontel.htm

Edited April 10, 2017 by AuntiePam
did some research!

[txhorns79]

Quote

I thought they'd already begun showing old movies on television regularly at that point. Pauline said that young people would come out to see Baby Jane because they'd watched Crawford and Davis's old movies on TV.

It's actually a plot point in Baby Jane, where Blanche watches an old movie of herself on television, and the neighbor brings her flowers after having seen the same movie on television. 

[BingeyKohan]

I think of that great scene in The Apartment where Jack Lemmon is trying to watch Grand Hotel on TV and between the announcer's reeling off the movie-star names (including our Joan's!) and sponsors they never get to the movie. I agree a small-town girl like the hotel clerk would have known Joan Crawford was coming to town, if nothing else because her mother loved JC back in the day. 

I'm not sure I'm 100% behind the myth we're perpetuating that Jessica Lange did not prepare for the role or properly respect JC. It's very easy to Google 'jessica lange joan crawford entertainment weekly' and find a story where she is very respectful (and seemingly knowledgable) about JC's upbringing. I give her best line of the night for "I'm perfectly happy to read both parts." 

I agree a more balanced portrayal in this episode (between JC and BD) would have shown BD insisting on playing the Charlotte character at a much younger age, so that later we understood when we see her regretting it and feeling foolish at the filming. A lot of her stuff happened off-screen, perhaps for time. Ryan Murphy must have resigned himself to the fact that the post-Oscars episode was fated to be a let-down.

I also agree it's fun to eavesdrop on JC's sycophantic phone calls. One night I went down a rabbit hole of Google-image searching her letters, usually in response to fans, or to interview requests, or declining invitations. An interesting glimpse of her ruling sense of decorum. (And there are also a few others confused in there, too, like Katherine Hepburn offering not much help to a book proposal aiming to set the record straight after Mommie Dearest, but expressing her sympathies with Joan.)

[sugarbaker design]

4 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

I'm not sure I'm 100% behind the myth we're perpetuating that Jessica Lange did not prepare for the role or properly respect JC.

I'm not buying it either.  I saw JL on Live With Kelly, and all JL talked about was Joan's sad history, from her sick relationship with her stepfather, through her boarding school days, right up to her mistreatment by Hollywood big wigs.

[peacheslatour]

10 hours ago, DasFlavorPup said:

Speaking of "Strait-Jacket", here's a brief scene, which I REALLY hope was ad-libbed just for what Joan does at the end -  the "VWOOP" sound never fails to make me laugh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX2CfU9iD0A

Have you ever seen I Saw What You Did? The movie about two teenage girls making crank phone calls? They end up pranking a serial killer and his lady friend is none other than Joan Crawford. Crazy, campy movie directed by William Castle.

[psychoticstate]

This episode made me feel very, very sad.  Sad for Joan and Bette, being deemed only fit to star in "hagsploitation" films and deemed "hags."  

Jack Warner was a massive douchebag and it was so rewarding to see him handed douchiness back via Bob Aldrich.  Aldrich may not have wanted to admit that he was a good "women's picture" director but there it is.  I rewatched Autumn Leaves yesterday and he really did an amazing job with Joan and Cliff Robertson, dealing not only with an older woman-younger man storyline but mental illness as well.  If you haven't seen it, I really suggest watching it.  You'll see a much softer side of Joan, with vulnerability but also a backbone under there.

Being a Crawford fan for years, I knew about her troubled relationship with Hal. It was reported that as soon as she had made it in Hollywood, Hal and their mother showed up with their bags and moved in with Joan.  Anna LaSeuer supposedly ran up bills all over town and Joan paid them. She did indeed get Hal extra work and small roles at MGM - - he was a nice looking man in his youth - - but he was lazy and did not have Joan's ambition or drive.

I had heard of the stag film rumors but not that Hal might have been behind them.  If so, what a horrible thing to do to your sister.  I'm torn on whether the films existed or starred Joan. I've seen stills from the films in question and the woman reported to be Joan doesn't really look like her.  Joan herself was pretty upfront in her interviews later in life (when asked about the casting couch and whether she took part in it, she responded that it was a lot more comfortable than the floor) so it seems that if she had participated in one or several, she would have admitted it. She always claimed she never shot one.   But Douglas Fairbanks, Jr. appeared to have been a fairly stand up guy and I can't see why he would lie about "Billie" telling him about one.  So I really don't know.  It does seem like if one existed, someone would sell it or release it.

I'm still thoroughly enjoying the series although I believe that Joan herself would be horrified at how she's being portrayed. It's been said here by others and I've said it but the real Crawford was not as weak as she's being shown here and yet also had more of a caring side than is being shown.  

I get that Murphy is a huge fan of Bette Davis.  I'm a fan of Davis and admire her work.  She was a terrific actress.  But Davis too could be a massive pain in the ass - - demanding, controlling, biting.  She was no saint, just as Joan was no saint.  

11 hours ago, qtpye said:

Was Joan really so strapped for cash, that she now had to take part in these horribly offensive exploitive movies?  I have no idea why the hell she would put herself through that if she was not desperate for money.  The misogyny was horrible and Warner was right about their appeal.  It was everyone laughing at the former beauty who thought she was too good for them brought low.  I hate that this genre was actually a thing.

Tucci's Warner is an amazing snake bastard and he should be nominated for an Emmy.

Why the heck would the hotel not recognize Joan Crawford, until Bette stepped in?

The show hasn't really addressed this (which is very surprising to me) but when Joan and Bette signed for Baby Jane, Bette needed more cash up front and so took a larger salary with a smaller percentage of returns.  Joan took a smaller salary with a larger percentage.  It most definitely worked out in Joan's favor as she ended up making a lot more money than Bette did on the film and this was a source of huge irritation for Bette.   I think after Baby Jane, Joan would have been fine financially, as she no longer had the Brentwood house and after Al Steele's death, moved into a smaller apartment in New York than the one they were living in and renovating. 

So while I don't think Joan had to work for financial reasons, I think she had to work for her own personal and emotional reasons.  She enjoyed working and she wanted to remain relevant.  She knew some of these films were trash but maybe she hoped to rise above that or that they would lead to something better.

I can't believe that Crawford wouldn't be recognized and a room wouldn't be set aside for her.  It's more likely that her room wasn't ready.  Between that and a car not waiting for her at the airport, that started Charlotte off on a bad note for Crawford. 

Tucci is absolutely amazing.

[annzeepark914]

Major meh for me, this episode, just because it was waaaay too much of a drunken Crawford, forever staggering around, forever heading to the drinks table.  If she was so worried about money, why not sell that big ol' house and move into a deluxe condo?  Now I have a question: was Hedda faking the illness just to worm her way into once again getting the info' out of JC? or, did she really have a heart attack the previous week?  Such a subhuman, that HH.  I sure hope there will be more BD next week cause I'm sick of Joan & her  maudlin scenes.

Almost forgot to mention: Tucci is, once again, magnificent.  As someone mentioned here, he was wonderful in The Devil Loves Prada and Julie & Julia, playing good guys.  Now he gets to be the king of meanies, Jack Warner, and he's doing a marvelous job. Sooooo nasty!

Edited April 10, 2017 by annzeepark914

[J-Man]

Quote

If she really owed Pepsi two million dollars (which would be about $16 million in today's money), she was lucky she was able to keep that house without doing more stag films.

Well, in real life, she sold that Brentwood house in 1955 and moved to New York permanently (after having married Al Steele.) So there was no house to "keep" at that point. (She did rent an apartment to  in West Hollywood to use when she needed to be in California from 1960 until 1972.)

[Florinaldo]

2 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

I agree a more balanced portrayal in this episode (between JC and BD) would have shown BD insisting on playing the Charlotte character at a much younger age, so that later we understood when we see her regretting it and feeling foolish at the filming.

Playing younger certainly was a common reflex at the time. When Castle came to offer Strait-Jacket to JC, he started his pitch with "The character is in her 50s":, she stopped him and said "No, she is in her 40s". The clapper board for the wardrobe test indicates the character is... 49. She also plays her at 29 in the opening sequence.

Perhaps they are being very JC-centric at this point and keeping some screen time in reserve for BD if they plan to have an extended epilogue showing how her career endeed much better than JC's after the latter's death, with fewer clunkers and more quality movies, up to her penultimate one, Lindsay Anderson's lovely elegy The Whales of August with Lillian Gish, Vincent Price and Ann Sheirdan. Perhaps unsurprisingly since people tend to be consistent in their interactions with others, she and Gish were openly hostile with each other on the set. There could be material for a sequel in there, Feud: Bette and Lillian.

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

But I love the attention they pay to Crawford's wardrobe, always dressed to the nines wherever she goes. And I love how they keep reminding us that she makes a point of personalizing every conversation she has - calling everyone by name and asking about their spouses and children, even calling her accountant (or whoever she wanted to cancel that check for her) and telling him to give her regards to his wife whose name she knows. 

They show her as always in character when in public, playing "Joan Crawford". Which makes it even more difficult to believe she would not be recognized by the hotel clerk. That persona means she must always be cordial with fans and make people feel like she really cares about them, their family and their lives. The behaviour expected from the Hollywood aristocrat she saw herself as.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Florinaldo

[Chaos Theory]

I am not going to debate American Horror Story because there is no point to it except to say I think it's the exact opposite of Hagsploitation but it's also Horror so unless you want to include only white men in it; someone is going to get hurt and someone is usually going to do the hurting.   That is the difference all of these films were incredibly exploitive and not in any way that helped Joan and Bette's careers at all.  They were just....exploited.  

Edited April 10, 2017 by Chaos Theory
My iPhone hates me

[iMonrey]

Quote

I can't believe that Crawford wouldn't be recognized and a room wouldn't be set aside for her.  It's more likely that her room wasn't ready.

I wasn't sure what to make of that scene. It was actually Mamacita who was told there were no rooms available while Joan stood in the background. And Mamacita did not specify "we have a reservation," she just said "we're checking in." Maybe the same thing, but it's possible the clerk did not notice Joan at first and was simply responding to Mamacita. On the other hand, as soon as Bette flounced up to the front desk and pointed out that Joan was a big part of the movie, it seemed as though this was some kind of stunt Bette had pulled off to embarrass and/or annoy Joan. The latter seems more likely but the whole situation was kind of ambiguous.

[Dev F]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

It's actually a plot point in Baby Jane, where Blanche watches an old movie of herself on television, and the neighbor brings her flowers after having seen the same movie on television. 

Yep, which is why that bit of exposition from Pauline was a little kludgy, informing Bob of something he just got done directing a movie about. And it's not like Feud is pretending that plot point didn't exist; it's mentioned in the song Bette sings in that very episode. ("I see her old movies on TV / And they are always a thrill to me . . .")

5 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

Skinny waif John Waters as burly William Castle? Stunt casting at its most absurd just for the sake of some commentary on a supposed parallel between the two directors.

I dunno, I think it was more about evoking the feeling of what it was like to watch Castle do his thing. If a viewer has any idea who John Waters is, just seeing him conveys the point pretty brilliantly. And the point could've been blunted if they went to a bunch of trouble to make Waters look like Castle and he was no longer immediately recognizable as himself.

[qtpye]

As much as I felt for Joan this episode, throwing flowers at Mamcita's head and calling her "just a servant" annoyed the shit out of me.  Particularly, as we have that awful video of that poor maid falling from a balcony, as her employer videoed the whole thing.

What if Mamacita had not ducked fast enough?  It seems like Ryan is saying that drunk Joan is physically and verbally abusive, which is not far off from Mommy Dearest.