S01.E18: Moonshadow

[ElectricBoogaloo]

That Was Us:

[CofCinci]

19 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Vietnam veterans did have education benefits available.  I wondered why he wasn't doing something like at least part-time college.  I was a little annoyed by the way they showed him counting his meager earnings in the attic, overdoing the point of how he was getting desperate to realize his dream of an auto shop.  A decent, motivated guy like him would probably be in school, unless he had been a really poor high school student, I suppose.  He was 28, not a kid, and I found it a little hard to swallow that he was willing to pull off a robbery of a mafia-connected business. 

Vietnam-era GI Bill did not fully cover tuition or provide a housing allowance - like the GI Bill of WWII and Post-9/11.  The GI Bill failed Vietnam Veterans. 

https://books.google.com/books?id=C-QRBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

I have a Masters degree today because of the Post-9/11 GI Bill. If I served during Vietnam, I wouldn't have crap.  Hell, there are men and women in their 70s now still fighting for benefits. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by CofCinci

[ElectricBoogaloo]

20 hours ago, luna1122 said:

I think the fight was just a lot of low blows and half truths, said in the heat of the moment. Like most fights. I don't believe Rebecca feels her life is nothing or pointless. I don't believe Jack thinks her singing is pathetic; it's what made him fall for her in the first place. I think they were just both being ugly.

I also don't think Rebecca is a bad person for wanting to sing. I don't think she's expecting to get famous or rich, I think it's just that singing is the thing that is hers, and it makes her feel, you know, most alive. We all have that thing. Most of us don't get to live it or make it our career, but it doesn't mean we give it up altogether. I am absolutely not on board with the idea that wanting to pursue it every now and then, even, heavens forfend, taking a couple weeks to travel to do it, makes her a bad wife or a bad mom or a bad person. She wasn't doing it for money or fame, or to get laid by the ex, who she shut down immediately. She just wants a little something that's only hers. I get Jack not being happy about it, feeling threatened by it, but his reaction, and his drinking, were over the top, and his attitude that she should just be happy being home while he provides was a little misogynistic. Jack is not a saint, just because he makes long winded pretty speeches (which I really get tired of before they're done, no matter how pretty Milo is).

That said, I also hate the 'throw the guy out of the house' thing after a fight. Separations are rarely, in my experience, a good thing, and very often lead to divorce. Stick it out, fight it out, stay together, or don't, but there's no 'we were on a break' from a real relationship, imo.

I read that Rebecca's toying with the moon necklace at the end was actually not scripted, that when a tear fell down Mandy's face, it fell onto the moon and she instinctively reached for it. I don't know if I believe that, it sure appeared to be planned, and it really seems like a touch these writers would have gone for, but who knows. If it really was just serendipitous, it's kind of nice.

ITA - I know people who paint or write or do other things on the side and they're not horrible spouses/parents just because there is something that gives them fulfillment in a way that making breakfast, doing laundry, and packing lunches doesn't. Yes, your relationships can be incredibly fulfilling, but that doesn't mean you aren't allowed to want other outlets. What if instead of singing, Rebecca wanted to go away for two weeks for something like a yoga retreat or an immersive painting course? Would people still think she's a terrible mother who's abandoning her marriage?

16 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Heck, in this thread alone there are many comments about how Randall is unfit to be an adoptive father because he is unemployed.  Even though A) His wife is employed B) As an attorney! and C) They have a lot of money.  Being a stay at home parent is not valued.  If you are a woman, it's supposed to be good enough for you and if it's not you should just get some hobbies.  No complaining allowed.  If you are a man, you are wasting your time if you stay at home.  It's as if you are too good to do that type of unpaid labor.

Yes, I love how being a mom and wife is supposed to be enough for Rebecca (and she's a selfish monster for wanting to sing) but people are questioning Randall being a stay at home dad.

14 hours ago, luna1122 said:

It didn't occur to me she'd bail on the performance just cuz that guy hit on her, or that she should. Women get hit on all the time, we don't just quit our responsibilities or jobs or gigs, and her ex (I can't remember his name) wasn't harassing or pressuring her after the initial move--I assume he would have let if drop after she made it clear it was a no go.  I don't know, had it been me, I'd have still stayed, even after Jack acted a drunken fool. I'd have taken away his keys so he couldn't drive, finished the gig and then worried about all the rest of it.  I assume the band still went on without her, I hope.

Yeah, watching card games is endlessly dull to me too.  and it doesn't help when they show me the hand they got dealt, I have no idea what it means cuz I'm poker-illiterate. But even I know you don't win and then bolt.

It's depressing that women get the blame for being hit on instead of blaming the guy who was out of line. Look, even if Rebecca was skipping around her dressing room naked, that doesn't give Ben the right to kiss his married bandmate. That's still on him for the choice he made, just like abusers and rapists are the ones we need to blame for their behavior instead of asking what the woman was wearing or if she was drunk.

As for expecting Rebecca to immediately quit the band, @luna1122 hit the nail on the head - women are hit on ALL THE TIME. If we quit every time it happened, we'd be SOL. How about Ben quitting the band since he's the one who was being inappropriate? As for Jack being jealous, eh. You need to trust that your significant other is going to be faithful. You can't spend all your time worried about who else thinks your wife is hot. I had a boyfriend who got jealous every time another guy looked at me. I was like dude, listen, you need to chill the fuck out. I can't help if it people look at me and you can't help it if people look at me. You just have to know that I am not going to let anything happen and know that I choose to be with you. If you can't, then we can't be together because I'm not going to put up with that kind of jealousy or spend all my time coming up with scenarios where you will be more comfortable i.e. avoiding beaches or anywhere with warm weather because I might wear a bathing suit or shorts and then someone might look at me.

I found the card game scene went on way too long, especially because we all knew what was going to happen - Jack wins, Jack tries to leave, Jack gets beat up, Jack gets his winnings taken away.

[dwarmed]

13 hours ago, Trooper York said:

No wonder her kids hate her.

Beat a dead horse much?

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Vietnam-era GI Bill did not fully cover tuition or provide a housing allowance - like the GI Bill of WWII and Post-9/11.  The GI Bill failed Vietnam Veterans. 

I agree.  Benefits not at all adequate.  I have Vietnam veterans in my family circle who were screwed in multiple ways, and exposed to Agent Orange in the bargain.  My only point was that with a couple hundred dollars a month in the 70s, Jack could have been enrolled in something, part-time maybe, and supplemented that with part-time work with his auto skills he already had.  Tuition was not out of reach yet in the 70s and he didn't need to be going the route of poker winnings and robbery. 

[Johnny Dollar]

I've been bugging Mrs Dollar with Jack and Rebecca's ages in the various timelines. The wedding invitation that Rebecca received showed the year that they met as 1972. Jack's father mentioned his worthless son was 28, meaning he was born in 1944. Later, when Jack and Rebecca had the big blow up, Jack mentioned that she was a forty year old mother. Since the kids were born in 1980 and seem to be about 15 at the time, the year of the fight was around 1995, meaning Rebecca was born circa 1955. So, Jack was a very hot looking 51 and Rebecca was a very hot looking 40 when they had the fight. However, it also means that when they first met Jack was 28, and Rebecca had to be 17 or 18, despite her friends being already married. Sorry, Mandy Moore, but you can't pass for a teenager.

Yes, that is how I watch tv and it's as annoying as it seems. Don't even get me started on the unrealistic travel and time logistics inherent in Game of Thrones. 

[llewis823]

15 hours ago, Trooper York said:

No wonder her kids hate her.

Trooper York, you're killing me...but in a good way! Love this - you should just make it part of your signature or your avatar! LOL

[Granny58]

15 hours ago, Literata said:

Was she not being paid at all for the two weeks? I really never got the impression they were in dire financial straits. If I missed that, my apologies, as that would certainly skew my response. 

And if her paycheck isn't sorely needed, I don't see a thing wrong with her doing something that feeds her soul.  Everyone views marriage and his or her responsibilities to it differently, and I don't mean to criticize your perspective, but I think maintaining one's individuality in any partnership is critical. 

I am not sure if they specifically said that they needed more money.  It was simply the impression I got, that he was all work, work, work.  But hey, you're right.  If it works for them, it works.  Everybody's marriage is their own deal. 

14 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

Regarding Randall and Beth possibly adopting, I am not interested in that story line either. I think that shows get ruined by bringing in too many kids. Blackish was spoiled for me when they made the mom preggers at this late stage in her life. Four kids are plenty and the show will be than much thinner with another one added.

I like Black-ish, LOVE Bow, and am enjoying her pregnancy.  But I think the new baby will be a dull storyline.  

[JudyObscure]

7 hours ago, bitchin camaro said:

And if she did, the same exact people (not you) would be giving her a hard time for that too.

As one of those same exact people I'm getting a little tired of this.  Just like being told  by others that I'm "judging," poor Rebecca.  We can say anything we like about Toby and his sex talk or Jack and his drunk driving and it's just our opinion, but if it's a critical opinion of Rebecca it's judging. and giving her a hard time.  Is she supposed to be exempt from all criticism just because she's a woman?  Just as she's not to be held to any responsibility at all in the awkward situation with her band mate?

That awful Jack is supposed to come home from ten hour days of back breaking construction work and spend the evening cooking meals, cleaning the bathrooms, and doing laundry till midnight, and he's supposed to love that because Rebecca's not fulfilled and can only get her singing groove on by lounge singing at night with her ex.  Not through the local orchestra choir or subjecting her church to weekly solos like all the frustrated singing stars I know.  If her daily  housework has been so awfully hard, how is it that when Jack's supposed to add it to his day, it's now nothing at all?  If she never got an award for what she does then when did Jack get an award for his work?   I've been both a SAHM and a working mom off and on for years at a time, depending on my husband's jobs.  I always liked the years as SAHM best because, with just a tiny bit of efficiency, most days I was able to keep a spotless house and put good meals on the table and still have the afternoons free for ballet classes, piano lessons, cut throat card games with the neighbor women, reading, politics and many other things.  At no point would I have expected my husband to lift a finger in the house work area at night, because I knew full well I was working four or five hours to his eight or nine.    I  agree that SAHM moms are not given enough credit, because they do have some really hard days when all the kids are sick and they sacrifice the perks of having other adults to talk to, money, promotions, and, for the lucky few, actually interesting work.  I still think it's best for the children to stay home if the family can afford it.    So I think what Rebecca has been doing is a good thing.  I just don't agree with her that Jack has ruined her life and he owes her this singing tour.

[luna1122]

20 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

  I always liked the years as SAHM best because, with just a tiny bit of efficiency, most days I was able to keep a spotless house and put good meals on the table and still have the afternoons free for ballet classes, piano lessons, cut throat card games with the neighbor women, reading, politics and many other things. 

I don't have kids and I can't manage any of that. Efficiency and tidiness have never been my strong suit. I'm impressed by anyone who can manage this stuff, let alone someone with kids, whether they have an outside job or not.

I don't think everyone who hates/dislikes/disapproves of Rebecca is a he man woman hating misogynist. She can be judged just like any other character on the show. I do think there's a lot of piling on against her, here and otherwise, and I do think some misogyny is at work in some of it. No need, I think, to take offense when you know that's not your thing or your reason. I don't think anyone is painting the Rebecca haters with THAT broad a brush, but I do think there are elements of something deeply ugly within the hate, in some cases. I imagine that's what's being reacted to. Me: I don't really care that much about her. Or Jack. I don't hate them, I don't love them, I don't...believe them. The actors do their best (with varying levels of success) but I'm not sold on them that much one way or another. They're both sure pretty, tho.

Edited March 16, 2017 by luna1122

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, breezy424 said:

Yeah, sorry, Rebecca did not look like a woman in her mid forties from any 'era'.  And even the style choices don't fit in any era that the show is trying to sell.  The show itself overall is presenting things from eras that just don't fit 'too' often.

I spent a fair bit of time trying to figure out "when" the flashback scenes were. None of the clothes matched anything in my memory (especially that heinous bow on Rebecca's friend's head) - and 1972 was during my salad days, as they say.

8 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I don't like Moore.   I think she's hammy.  But I'm on her side of this argument all the way.

I don't know that I think she's hammy, but I've never really thought she was doing a great job of acting. For some reason, for me, she fades into the background even when she's speaking. But I, too, am mostly on her side, at least when it comes to wanting something more.

8 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I just rewatched to see if I imagined it that Rebecca was flirty-ish.  Moore even puckered up when he leaned in.

Doesn't she kind of have a permanent pucker (or is that her slightly upset expression). I didn't get any feeling that she was being flirty, myself. She's been very clear with Ben where she stands.

3 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Vietnam-era GI Bill did not fully cover tuition or provide a housing allowance - like the GI Bill of WWII and Post-9/11.  The GI Bill failed Vietnam Veterans. 

https://books.google.com/books?id=C-QRBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

I have a Masters degree today because of the Post-9/11 GI Bill. If I served during Vietnam, I wouldn't have crap.  Hell, there are men and women in their 70s now still fighting for benefits. 

I didn't know that about the Post-9/11 GI Bill. That's terrific. The Korean War veterans didn't get much either. Congress doesn't pony up for vets unless it's a popular war. My father was both a Korean and Vietnam war vet. He did get enough to pay for the basics in college, but he was retired military, so he had an income. He got $50 extra a month in his GI Bill payments when I was still his dependent.

[MV713]

1 hour ago, Johnny Dollar said:

I've been bugging Mrs Dollar with Jack and Rebecca's ages in the various timelines. The wedding invitation that Rebecca received showed the year that they met as 1972. Jack's father mentioned his worthless son was 28, meaning he was born in 1944. Later, when Jack and Rebecca had the big blow up, Jack mentioned that she was a forty year old mother. Since the kids were born in 1980 and seem to be about 15 at the time, the year of the fight was around 1995, meaning Rebecca was born circa 1955. So, Jack was a very hot looking 51 and Rebecca was a very hot looking 40 when they had the fight. However, it also means that when they first met Jack was 28, and Rebecca had to be 17 or 18, despite her friends being already married. Sorry, Mandy Moore, but you can't pass for a teenager.

Yes, that is how I watch tv and it's as annoying as it seems. Don't even get me started on the unrealistic travel and time logistics inherent in Game of Thrones. 

Good thing you don't watch 24 Legacy!

I have also been bothered how quickly they get around from NJ to Manhattan and back again.  Like I live here and it takes 2 hours on a good day!

[Phoebe70]

On 3/14/2017 at 9:57 PM, Trooper York said:

If she was so set on singing why didn't she pursue that career after Jack conveniently croaked on her?

Instead of trading down to mendacious Miguel.

I'm not sure how she could pursue a singing career when she would be a single mother to 3 teenagers.

So we finally see a clean-shaven Jack.  Me likey!

[BoogieBurns]

1 hour ago, Johnny Dollar said:

The wedding invitation that Rebecca received showed the year that they met as 1972. Jack's father mentioned his worthless son was 28, meaning he was born in 1944. Later, when Jack and Rebecca had the big blow up, Jack mentioned that she was a forty year old mother. Since the kids were born in 1980 and seem to be about 15 at the time, the year of the fight was around 1995, meaning Rebecca was born circa 1955. So, Jack was a very hot looking 51 and Rebecca was a very hot looking 40 when they had the fight. However, it also means that when they first met Jack was 28, and Rebecca had to be 17 or 18, despite her friends being already married. Sorry, Mandy Moore, but you can't pass for a teenager.

Just to help you out here, Rebecca and Jack are 6 years apart. She had the kids when she was 30. She was 45/46 when he called her a 40 year old singer. It was meant as a 40something singer. All the other math checks out. They met when Becks was 21/22 and Jack was 28. But yes, Jack is a very hot 51/52 and Rebecca an even hotter 46. 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Doesn't she kind of have a permanent pucker (or is that her slightly upset expression). I didn't get any feeling that she was being flirty, myself. She's been very clear with Ben where she stands.

Her lips made a puckering motion just before he leaned in, not that I think she 'was asking for it'.  Just that I think she was directed to physically act like they were having a really intimate moment there, and then act offended.  Flirty wasn't a great word for me to use, I don't think she led him on. I just think she could've probably kept some physical distance and not acted like they were super close buds who could get that physically hands-y without him misreading things.  I think it was miscommunication and probably 80% his fault.  

I've worked with a dude who's held a torch for me for decades and I just wouldn't do any of those physical behaviors she did, if we were on business travel together.  Not that it would make an unwanted pass 'my fault' but it'd make it more likely to occur.  I think a lot of men would take those physical signals to mean maybe the door's open a crack for more at this moment, despite any spousal professions of love.

[SueB]

She had her eyes closed, she didn't see Ben coming.  As soon as she did, she (rightly) freaked.

ETA: Many married working women have had a situation close to (or exactly like) the one Rebecca has had.  One where they are blind to a man falling for them (despite being married) and then having to take actions to be sure there's no encouragement.  I got surprised a couple of times myself.  I certainly wasn't going to leave my job, I just kept my distance and kept them at arms' length.  Rebecca thought Jack was being jealous, she was wrong.  She realized she was wrong when Ben went in for the kiss.  But there's no reason, IMO, why she couldn't have not only told him off (again) but threatened to enlist the band's help if she felt slightly pushed.  And honestly, I would have had no problem with her finishing the tour.  But here's the insidious part --- Jack's words made her feel like the ONLY reason she was there was because Ben wanted in her pants.  The objective data (the band got this tour opportunity) is that she was good and improved the band.  

Now, getting Jack back home WAS the priority as she had no one else to rely on at that moment.  And I can see that she felt she couldn't prevent Jack from driving unless she took action. Further, Ben's violation of her trust/person, relieves ANY obligation she had to the rest of the band IMO.  Finally, once it was the next day, her marriage is in crisis and she needed to dump the tour pronto.  

Edited March 16, 2017 by SueB

[Katy M]

27 minutes ago, Phoebe70 said:

I'm not sure how she could pursue a singing career when she would be a single mother to 3 teenagers.

2 years later she would be a single mother to adults.

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

That awful Jack is supposed to come home from ten hour days of back breaking construction work and spend the evening cooking meals, cleaning the bathrooms, and doing laundry till midnight, and he's supposed to love that because Rebecca's not fulfilled and can only get her singing groove on by lounge singing at night with her ex

Now I am confused.  He worked in an office.  How is that back-breaking work?  When was he doing laundry and cleaning bathrooms?  Three nights a week (and I am betting that at least one was a weekend night) he needed to plan to come home earlier than 8 pm to be with the kids.  Maybe pick someone up from practice.  How did that turn into he has to do everything?

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, SueB said:

She had her eyes closed, she didn't see Ben coming.  As soon as she did, she (rightly) freaked.

I agree that was how the scene was meant to be seen.  I just feel like they probably did multiple takes and in some their lips did meet and due to that Moore physically puckered in anticipation this take, though she recoiled before they met.  I feel like she was probably directed to act very physically and emotionally open and connected to the man, and then to shut it off.  

Though that's part of what I mean by 'hammy'.  I'm not sure if she's over-acting so much as I just see her acting.  I feel like I'm watching Mandy at work more than a separate character sometimes.  

Actually, on re-watch I think Rebecca took a deep breath like to calm her nerves and pursed her lips to blow it out and he read it wrong.  So no mis-pucker.  LOL.  But still kind of heavy direction on the 'appear like you're a bit open to this', I think.  I'm not closing my eyes and pursing my lips for any reason with an ex so close to me our foreheads were touching the moment before, unless I'm wanting that kiss.  

I guess we're supposed to see her a little naive and trusting and unaware of her beauty.  But I think in real life when you look like that you learn early on to be aware of what signals you send to men or else you can expect a lot of awkward moments like that one.  

Edited March 16, 2017 by Guest

[laurakaye]

16 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Now I am confused.  He worked in an office.  How is that back-breaking work?  When was he doing laundry and cleaning bathrooms?  Three nights a week (and I am betting that at least one was a weekend night) he needed to plan to come home earlier than 8 pm to be with the kids.  Maybe pick someone up from practice.  How did that turn into he has to do everything?

And again, wasn't this for a duration of only two weeks?  It seems like a lot of manufactured drama for such a relatively short time frame.

[Crs97]

And with her dedication to the lists that he told her were unnecessary, you just know she has fully cooked meals that he just needs to reheat.  I bet specific detailed instructions are written on each Tupperware.

[JudyObscure]

Sorry, I forgot he was no longer in construction work.  I was talking about during the tour and in answer to someone up thread who said it was about time he had to do some of the work she had been doing for years and never got an award for.  Of course, it isn't going to kill him to do the house work for two weeks.  It was all the attitude that it was nothing much at all that seemed to me to be contradictory to the "poor unappreciated Rebecca."

[laurakaye]

Not to mention there are three teenagers living there, too.  He wasn't being left alone with three toddlers.  No reason they couldn't all pitch in and get things done around the house...unless Rebecca was supposed to be one of those women who freak out if the kitchen floor isn't scrubbed every day and the bathrooms have to be cleaned every night.  That's not how she's been portrayed, though.

[xtwheeler]

On 3/15/2017 at 6:51 AM, Clanstarling said:

My guess is Kate feels she's to blame because her urging Jack to make things right with Rebecca did the opposite, leading to a breakup which likely was still in place when he died. I'm still thinking that line about "dying when no one was looking" was meant to foreshadow Jack's death.

This is the essence of my problem with Kate: she is a self-centered faux martyr. Her dad died 20 years ago. Long enough for her to have plenty of adult perspective and rationale. Unless she was literally the mechanism of his death - - killing him directly--she is too damn old to be hung up on "it's my fault my dad's dead." Immediately after the fact, in a swirl of adolescent, irrational grief, OK. An elementary age child, ok. But 20 years after the fact she knows damn well she didn't get him killed. But claiming so certainly brings all the attention and pity right back on her where she likes it. She just seems to love being observed being miserable. 

20 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I'm not really excited about watching Kate pursue singing. What does EVERYONE on TV have to do something "cool" and "artsy" for a living? I mean, I'm all for going for your dreams, but being a singer is a hard field to break into, and while Kate is good, she didn't sound super incredible enough to sustain a career. Someone has to love mergers and acquisitions too, even if it isn't as sexy.

My general observation is if the stay at home parent (which in my area is pretty 50/50 m/f stays home) returns to the work force after such an extended absence, like Rebecca, and where it is obviously not motivated by financial concerns, more people are free to choose "careers" they "gave up" in the arts because there's no need to make money at it. Often the reason that person stayed home in the first place was because they were the lower wage earner. If you're earning $20 in tips at open mic night while your corporate lawyer spouse makes $250k out of law school, the singer is not the one "going back to work after family leave." 

I mean, if you got to "go back to work" and "pay" wasn't a factor, would you choose to return to your career as a singer or a ditch digger? Rebecca pretending this is her "career" is patently absurd. This is a hobby. An interest. When your career is as a coffee shop singer busking for tips, you also could have been keeping your love tank* topped up singing at the HoJo's 6 months after the triplets were born. Nobody stopped you, sister. 

*TM Vicky Gunvalson 

[Mldh598]

On 3/14/2017 at 9:49 PM, betweenthebanter said:

 

Right now the Kate becoming a singer plotline is not something that I'm really interested in. I guess it can be an interesting storyline in regards to her and Rebecca's relationship. I'm sad that Kate' previous job storyline wasn't something that the writers wanted to explore more.

This surprised me too, mostly because she was working for Toby's ex wife, and I had wondered if the daughter was Toby's. I was waiting for the time Kate would talk to Toby more about her job, and the dots would start connecting. Would have been interesting, but it looks like the writers didn't agree with me. LOL

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, xtwheeler said:

This is the essence of my problem with Kate: she is a self-centered faux martyr. Her dad died 20 years ago. Long enough for her to have plenty of adult perspective and rationale. Unless she was literally the mechanism of his death - - killing him directly--she is too damn old to be hung up on "it's my fault my dad's dead."

When I was 10, I was responsible for the death of another 10 year old girl.  Because I turned down plans to go to a pizza place which put someone at the wrong place at the wrong time.  I rationally know that I did not kill her, but I feel guilty.  I'm not going to say I think about it every day, because I don't.  But, she was just a random girl, an acquaintance, a friend of a friend.  I have also never talked about it with anyone because her death is not about me.  Even at 10 I knew that.  But, I don't think you get to say she is "too damn old" to be hung up on guilt.

[luna1122]

2 minutes ago, Mldh598 said:

This surprised me too, mostly because she was working for Toby's ex wife, and I had wondered if the daughter was Toby's. I was waiting for the time Kate would talk to Toby more about her job, and the dots would start connecting. Would have been interesting, but it looks like the writers didn't agree with me. LOL

She wasn't working for Toby's ex wife. His ex owned a shop, she stalked her there, interviewed with her, didn't take the job. Her job was with the Jamie Gertz character. She's not Toby's ex, that's not Toby's daughter.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Mldh598 said:

This surprised me too, mostly because she was working for Toby's ex wife, and I had wondered if the daughter was Toby's. I was waiting for the time Kate would talk to Toby more about her job, and the dots would start connecting. Would have been interesting, but it looks like the writers didn't agree with me. LOL

That was two different bosses.  Toby's ex was the store owner.  The mother of the daughter was someone completely different.  I don't even think she even worked for Toby's ex.  She just accepted the job, told Toby about it and they were both like, "NO, that's not going to work."

[ChromaKelly]

19 hours ago, laurakaye said:

I agree with this post, and I'm probably beating a detail to death here, but this is kind of indicative of why I struggle with this show so much.

Rebecca got hit on; she was enraged and immediately called Jack, and I absolutely thought that if he'd answered the phone, she would've said, "you were right, get me out of here."  He didn't answer, so to me that indicates that she was going to stay and perform.  Then Jack came in drunk and beat up the guy that made a pass at her, and that's when Rebecca decided to leave.  It confused me, because she seemed to be directing her anger at having to leave towards Jack's drunken brawl, not at the attempted kiss.  If she was that pissed at getting hit on, she could've grabbed her stuff and called a cab to get her out of there.  But she didn't.  Her actions and her anger don't make sense to me.  It's almost like Jack showing up gave her an excuse to not perform, and a reason to blame him for her misery.  Or something?  I don't know.  The show seems to be hell-bent on portraying Rebecca as a shrew, but it only leaves me really confused as to her motivations.  Her character doesn't seem to be fully sketched out, and 18 episodes in, I feel like we should know what makes these people tick.  And I honestly don't have a clue.

Well, I would have been mad about the drunken brawl because I hate making a scene and the fight means playing with the band is totally over. Which, she might have ended it anyway after the pass being made, but that should be her decision. 
I don't think Rebecca should have "had" to leave after the attempted kiss. Go on with the gig and then talk later. I just don't see why she has to go running out of the place to show she's not interested and her marriage comes first.

[Mldh598]

3 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

She wasn't working for Toby's ex wife. His ex owned a shop, she stalked her there, interviewed with her, didn't take the job. Her job was with the Jamie Gertz character. She's not Toby's ex, that's not Toby's daughter.

Oh dear God....how did I completely miss that? Thank you for clarifying - not sure how I got that out of what I watched. =0 

 

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That was two different bosses.  Toby's ex was the store owner.  The mother of the daughter was someone completely different.  I don't even think she even worked for Toby's ex.  She just accepted the job, told Toby about it and they were both like, "NO, that's not going to work."

[MamaBird]

Quote

Was it hard to get a contractor's license then, not enough of a market for them?   Was there no garages hiring mechanics?  I think it was big fail on the part of the writers to have Jack act so desperately in almost robbing the bar without laying the groundwork to show that he had no other options.

This is what I'm wondering about.  It took me out of the show a little bit, because I was 19 in 1972 and I remember how easy it was to get a job back then.  All the factories were hiring like crazy, and guys were graduating from high school one day and starting at Caterpillar or Pabst or Standard Brands the next.  I knew several Vietnam vets, and they were all working.  It was true for women as well; if you wanted a clerical job you could get one - whether an under-20 like me, or an empty-nester going to work for the first time after her children were raised.  I literally did not know anyone, male or female, who was having a problem getting a job!  

I can understand it if Jack didn't want to be a factory worker for the rest of his life.  But if he was so desperate to get out of his father's house that he'd consider committing a crime, then he could certainly do factory work for a couple of years.  He could live in a cheap apartment and easily save enough money to give him a "cushion" to rely on while he looked for the kind of work  he really wanted.

[ryebread]

I think Jack's douchiness, dad issues and alcohol abuse - from the time he and Rebecca meet until the time they part - needs to be fleshed out more next season.  He went from stellar husband and dad, to pissy drunk at warp speed.  And anyone who chooses to rob a bar for what? under a thousand dollars? obviously is lacking something in the character department.  I need to know more.

That's the beauty of this type of format - the writers can go back and forth in time and space, at their will, to keep us interested.

I wasn't watching this show at all until I binged watched the first 16 episodes a couple weekends ago.  I got hooked but agree with those that found the finale lackluster.

[laurakaye]

12 minutes ago, Mldh598 said:

Oh dear God....how did I completely miss that? Thank you for clarifying - not sure how I got that out of what I watched. =0 

 

Don't think you're the only one.  That storyline was dropped in a hot second and now I think (?) she is still working for Jamie Gertz?  Or did she quit that job too?

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I  agree that SAHM moms are not given enough credit, because they do have some really hard days when all the kids are sick and they sacrifice the perks of having other adults to talk to, money, promotions, and, for the lucky few, actually interesting work.  I still think it's best for the children to stay home if the family can afford it.    So I think what Rebecca has been doing is a good thing.  I just don't agree with her that Jack has ruined her life and he owes her this singing tour.

I have stayed at home and loved it, but not every minute of course.  If you are doing nurturing of young children (and maybe helping elder parents), it is easy to feel like the well is running dry sometimes, but my general feeling has been that if you are in charge of your own time and you are bored, it's your own fault and you have the means to cure it.  With Rebecca and Jack I just think both feel unappreciated, haven't talked much about it over the years, resentments got buried.  They need to talk.  Their kids will all be out of the nest in a couple years, at the same time, and Rebecca can then be totally free to pursue whatever, and Jack might be able to think about some kind of self-employment.  Randall is probably on track for scholarships, and we don't know if Kate or Kevin are college-bound, and if they are, there is financial aid, work-study, etc.  Jack and Rebecca are close to a new phase in their lives (well, Rebecca is) and they need to get back on the same page by talking, not drinking, yelling, having simmering negativity.  Also, wasn't it only a few weeks ago in the timeline that Jack was arranging the grand surprise at the first apartment?  They seemed to have a good foundation after something like 20 years.  This finale manufactured a bunch of drama and it kind of fizzled for me, because it's just not that fascinating to watch the Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf style scenes, just so we can be shown that Jack is imperfect and Rebecca saved him from himself all those years ago.  

[ChromaKelly]

I also feel like the show needs to flesh out how Jack used to be someone who thinks running out on a shady poker game and robbing a bar were good ways to solve one's financial woes. WTF? I've been in bad places financially and never once turned to crime. So, he's someone about to rob a bar, hears the angelic singing of Rebecca, and then becomes the most sainted husband and father ever, except for when he drinks because his wife is out singing. OK then.

[Crs97]

Quote

Sorry, I forgot he was no longer in construction work.  I was talking about during the tour and in answer to someone up thread who said it was about time he had to do some of the work she had been doing for years and never got an award for.  Of course, it isn't going to kill him to do the house work for two weeks.  It was all the attitude that it was nothing much at all that seemed to me to be contradictory to the "poor unappreciated Rebecca."

Now I understand.  Our oldest was born with significant special needs.  Both Mr.CRS and I took family leave act, bur I needed to go back earlier to finish up so that I could stay home with him permanently.  It turned out to be a blessing because those few weeks he totally understood what stay-at-home parenting entails.  He can still remember counting down the minutes of the last hour before I got home and the disappointment when I would call that I had to stay later.  I know what it is like to work all day and come home to a husband who hasn't had much adult attention and needs a break from laundry and cleaning.  Sixteen years later I think we still get each other's perspectives.  He is working from home today, and we just laughed because he needed to talk to me, then got a work email he needed to deal with, and I asked if I had time to scrub the toilet while I waited for him.  He chuckled, "Don't say I don't let you do things!"  Hee.

Jack lost me when he belittled the thing that makes Rebecca feel most like Rebecca, not mom of triplets or Jack's wife.  It doesn't matter that it wasn't going to be a high-paying career.  Rebecca, like many women, poured herself into her children and home and just now realized it's a temporary position.  I belong to a MOMS Group with women of all ages, and the common comment the older women have is how painful the realization is that if you have done it correctly, you have essentially worked yourself out of a job.  All of them talked about struggling to discover who they were as individuals again.  Studies also say that many times a divorce happens because the children have left and the parents forgot to invest in themselves as a couple and now have nothing in common.  I am not saying everyone has an issue with it;  my oldest sister did just fine when her youngest left.  I do think it happens enough that the show is right to explore it, and I do think it is probably somewhat typical that the working parent doesn't quite understand why the SAH parent is suddenly struggling.

Does Rebecca even know that Jack sacrificed starting up a company in order to pay for Randall's private school?  Didn't she say the school was too expensive and Jack told her not to worry about it?  He never told her about borrowing the down payment; maybe this was yet another sacrifice he didn't share?  If Jack had said they needed money, maybe we would have seen her back in the workforce.  Maybe that would have been more interesting than hearing her try to revive her dream of singing.  

[kili]

Rebecca is delusional about the success of her pre-children musical career. Singing at an open mic is not a career. It's an open mic. Even that Froggies singing wasn't bringing in sufficient money to constitute success. She thinks that her family kept her from being a musical star, but 7 years of trying between "Moonshadow" and Froggies does not seem to have made much progress.

Breaking into the music business is a lot about luck and being in the right place at the right time. The best singer doesn't always win the career. A singer has to have the right sound for the era and has to connect with the right songs (being able to write those songs is a big bonus because if you depend on others to write your songs, they may want offer their best songs to proven singers first). 

Rebecca would get more sympathy from me if she had a valid Plan B. If taking care of three teens is a job that she feels can be done by Jack  after he completes his 10 hour shift, then she should have a day job that helps to finance the family. Then, maybe she won't feel like a ghost and her life has no meaning. Plus, with her working a day job, maybe there will be enough room in the family finances for both her and Jack to be able to do a bit of dream following.

Rebecca only sees her sacrifices.  We have seen her frequently complain that Jack works late, but we never see her offer to get a day job so that he can scale back his hours (she's the one saying that taking care of teens is not a full-time job). They both make sacrifices, but at least Jack is willing to sacrifice a little bit more so that she can follow her dreams a little. She doesn't even seem to wonder if he has dreams.

[Guest]

Well, one of his dreams was having kids.

[kili]

Quote

Well, one of his dreams was having kids.

Yes, he dreamed of the house and kids. Yet she keeps both and send him to live with Miguel. Oh, wait. It ends up she likes the kids and  house dream too. 

She can't keep throwing the kids in his face if they've actually become her dream too.  

Can she not imagine how hard it would be for the kids to hear what she is saying - she never wanted them, she sacrificed her successful career and is left feeling like a ghost with nothing? She needs to phrase things better because it is actually quite hurtful. We all have moments of being down, but our lives are genuinely pretty great. Our dreams sometimes obscure all that we really have.

[tennisgurl]

48 minutes ago, kili said:

If taking care of three teens is a job that she feels can be done by Jack  after he completes his 10 hour shift, then she should have a day job that helps to finance the family.

I think this would make a lot of sense for her to do, and I'm not sure she hasn't brought it up. She can get a day job, since, as she said, the kids are old enough to not need her all the time, and sing with the band on the weekends, or just go to open mike nights. Singing is her passion, and she should do it if it makes her happy, but calling it a career is pretty ridiculous. How much can she be making, even touring with that band in random bars on the east coast? If she had a day job, then Jack wouldn't have to take so many hours, he could be home more often, and he could take on more parenting responsibility. It might not be a super exciting jobs, but lots of people take on boring or crappy jobs for their family, or to fund their passions in their off time. Jack has never said he's against her working (that I remember anyway), he just said he thinks her becoming a professional singer is a pipe dream. Which it is. Why hasn't this come up? Wouldn't it solve most of her problems? Her job could give her more purpose and a life outside the house, and she can still sing in her spare time, and see more of Jack, who would be less tired and stressed. I mean, this is the 90s, not the 50s. Rebecca going to work now that the kids are older shouldn't be such a huge deal. That's what my mom did, and it worked out really well.  

[MaiSoCalled]

There seems to be this running theme in the show that the best choice is always to sacrifice your career/professional passions for your family. This week, Rebecca abandons the band for Jack, and I feel we're meant to see this as the correct choice.  Also this week, the voice over implied that Kevin was making a bad decision by choosing Ron Howard over Sophie. (Is that her name? I always forget...)

Almost every character this season has had the opportunity to choose their family over their career/passions, and each time they make the "right" choice, they are celebrated. Jack gave up his professional dreams to work a job that would support his family. Randall chose William over work, eventually quitting. Kevin left opening night of his show for Randall. Rebecca, ultimately, chose her marriage over singing. I often feel for the other people impacted by these choices - particularly the cast of Kevin's play and Rebecca's innocent bandmates - but I understand the message that the show is trying to make. 

I'm also really excited for Kate's storyline next season. I like her voice, but more importantly, I think this will be a great opportunity for new and different weight loss stories. I love Kate's struggle with her weight. It's a story that I don't see often on TV and is very personal to me. As a performer, your body is suddenly a part of your profession. How will Kate deal with this? How many gigs will she lose as a result of her weight? Will this help her relationship with Rebecca, the former singer, or will it only enhance the weight based animosity between the two? 

If Jack does die soon, I wonder if Rebecca stops singing out of guilt. If so, I bet even money that we get a scene where Kate encourages Rebecca to start singing again. 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, kili said:

Yes, he dreamed of the house and kids. Yet she keeps both and send him to live with Miguel. Oh, wait. It ends up she likes the kids and  house dream too. 

She can't keep throwing the kids in his face if they've actually become her dream too.  

Can she not imagine how hard it would be for the kids to hear what she is saying - she never wanted them, she sacrificed her successful career and is left feeling like a ghost with nothing? She needs to phrase things better because it is actually quite hurtful. We all have moments of being down, but our lives are genuinely pretty great. Our dreams sometimes obscure all that we really have.

I might need to rewatch.  I haven't heard her saying those things, much less in front of the kids?  I think I heard the ghost thing but that seemed to me like it was in relation to the emptying nest, which is a really common feeling.  It's a testament to how much the family has meant to her, not the opposite.  

[kirkola]

23 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

Hated this episode. OK, not hated the whole thing - the part that I didn't hate bored me to tears. I found so much of Jack's backstory hard to believe. At what age did he go to Vietnam and what age did he return? Has that ever been established? I find it hard to believe that at 28 he is living at home. These days it isn't unusual for a 28 year old to live at home since many have been raised and coddled as special snowflakes. However Jack was born in 1944 - a very different era. If he couldn't find steady work he would more likely be sharing a place with several buddies or at the very least couch surfing until he landed a place/job. The only people of my era (and I am 13 years younger than Jack) who lived at home at that age - certainly guys -  were socially backward and lived at home their whole lives. Even less unlikely that his father, who he doesn't get along with in the first place, would let him live at home. Not at all common in that era, and certainly for a son nearing 30. And most adults at that age would do anything to not live at home. (Other than rob a pub, of course).

My father came home from Vietnam and moved right back into his parents house.  The way he told it, the Army just said "thanks for your service, here's a bus ticket home".  He didn't get any other cash.  He might have been able to get money for college, but he was solidly blue collar and it never occurred to him to return to school (he hated high school).  He found something he enjoyed (fixing electronics) and started doing that for people.  It led to his employment with a local movie theater which gave him the financial independence to get out on his own (roommate situation) until he married Mom.  Also as Dad told it, coming home from Vietnam, his friends from before had moved on with their lives...marriages, careers, whatnot.  His friends from the service were scattered throughout the country.  Vietnam was one of those hard wars where the vets weren't honored like we do today. 

So Jack's situation wasn't unreasonable to me.  Of course, Jack and Rebecca's fight wasn't entirely unreasonable either.  My parents had a similar fight when Mom wanted to go back to school.  Dad couldn't fathom why she wasn't content to be a SAHM and raising my siblings and me.  They compromised by Mom working at the school and Dad believing she was a student for the last 30+ years. 

[Trooper York]

Rebecca will never support Kate in her singing career. Not in a million years. Look at how she treats Kevin. How she could never be there for him. Look at how she lied to Randall when she kept him from his birth father when it would really have been vital for him when Jack died.  She is too self involved and selfish. Do you really think she would be happy if her daughter succeeded where she failed? Not a chance.

She is just horrible.

30 minutes ago, kili said:

Yes, he dreamed of the house and kids. Yet she keeps both and send him to live with Miguel. Oh, wait. It ends up she likes the kids and  house dream too. 

She can't keep throwing the kids in his face if they've actually become her dream too.  

Can she not imagine how hard it would be for the kids to hear what she is saying - she never wanted them, she sacrificed her successful career and is left feeling like a ghost with nothing? She needs to phrase things better because it is actually quite hurtful. We all have moments of being down, but our lives are genuinely pretty great. Our dreams sometimes obscure all that we really have.

This is spot on. The idea behind the fight scene was that they were telling their "truth." Her truth: the house the kids and the marriage just stopped her from realizing her dream of singing Tony Orlando songs at the open mike at the Blarney Stone  to toothless alcoholics who just want to sleep in their own puke.

No wonder her audience hates her.

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

I don't think Rebecca should have "had" to leave after the attempted kiss. Go on with the gig and then talk later. I just don't see why she has to go running out of the place to show she's not interested and her marriage comes first.

Plus, Ben drove her to Cleveland; it's not like she had a ready-to-go car to leave in that moment. Add in that seemed to be at least 10:30 at night, I can see why Rebecca might have stayed to figure out what to do, maybe play the gig, and then leave in the morning. She could have been planning to go back to the hotel, but we don't know. 

15 minutes ago, Trooper York said:

No wonder her audience hates her.

I don't hate her. I can be annoyed with her and she has made several bad choices, but I don't hate her. I haven't hated many people on this show. Ok, except for Olivia. Oh, and Horse Dick. He's ten times worse than Rebecca could ever be.

[Trooper York]

The actress and her performance and role are all geared toward moving her to Gabby Dawson levels of infamy.

I don't think that happens by accident. The writers are obviously loading the dice. 

[CleoCaesar]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

That awful Jack is supposed to come home from ten hour days of back breaking construction work and spend the evening cooking meals, cleaning the bathrooms, and doing laundry till midnight

Firstly, Jack works in an office. Secondly, the kids are at least 15. They're not handicapped in any way, and more than capable of preparing dinner, cleaning a bathroom, and throwing in a load of laundry when necessary. Being a SAHM to 3 infants sounds like one of the most brutal circles of hell. Being a SAHM to 3 healthy, well-adjusted teens (while living in a comfortable house with every modern appliance, with a breadwinner spouse) does not. Rebecca's presence 24/7 does not seem that necessary.

Neither Jack nor Rebecca are martyrs.

[Aloeonatable]

I was a SAHM for 15 years while my husband worked two jobs (his choice.) I was happy in that role, and though we may not have gone on Hawaiian vacations, or bought new cars every few years, we both felt it was the right decision. It was a mutual decision. I went to work when my youngest was 12, and continued until I retired 3 years ago. Of course I had no artistic passion that I was giving up. I may not remember correctly, but did Rebecca say, in the argument with Jack, that she resented giving up on her singing to raise her children? If she did, then I pity her.

[Sake614]

Did I mishear or did Jack say that Rebecca was a 40-year-old woman singing cover songs in bars? Because FORTY in 1996?? That means she was 24 when the kids were born and there's no way she was that young.

[ProudMary]

19 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

I also am not thrilled with Kate now wanting to sing. How many 36 year olds start their career at that age? Unless she goes on the Voice or some such show I see her repeating her mother's career. And Toby supporting them. Yawn. 

Noooo!  Now I'm thinking that is exactly what will happen.  I can totally see NBC doing this with The Voice being the Tuesday night lead-in for This Is Us.  Be sure to tune in to Season 2 of This is Us:  Featuring fictionalized segments of The Voice!  Blech.

19 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Jack's jealously came from his belief that Rebecca "saved" him.  He was going to steal money out of the cash register, but when he saw Rebecca, he forgot all about that.  So Jack has always had this feeling about Rebecca, she's not just a woman, she's the woman who saved him from a life of crime.  Someone was right here when they said Jack has a Madonna complex when it comes to Rebecca; and no woman can be the Madonna...except Madonna.

First, let me just say that I really like your posts.  I always seem to agree with much that you say--not just in this forum but in several, I think we like the same programming--and you say it better than I do!
I'm glad you brought up the Rebecca "saved" Jack thing.  This is a major pet peeve of mine that appears way too much lately in pop culture, not just in television and film but also in music.  So many songs sung by men have lines about "I'd been lost and then she saved me" or "I'm looking for a woman to save me."  It just pisses me off to no end.  Hey men:  Save yourselves or better yet, don't screw yourselves up in the first place.  We women already have enough on our plates!