S01.E14: I Call Marriage

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

2 hours ago, Mrs. DuRona said:

Jack, sure, maybe.  Although I did notice his eyes are more crinkly.  But Rebecca, I'll buy it.  I turned 38 in June, and had co-workers who thought it was my 30th birthday.  Unless I tell people my age, they assume I'm in my mid-late 20s, not approaching 40.  So, yeah, I take no issue with Rebecca looking so young.

You sound like me!  While I look old enough NOT to be carded, most seem to believe I'm around 30 rather than going on 38 this year. 

I believe both of you, but do you look any older than you did 15 or so years ago (and before having triplets)?   I believe the objection is not that Rebecca looks much younger than her age, but that she doesn't seem to have aged at all.

[Hanahope]

I thought Kate was a bit rude to Toby about the stick class.  I mean, she didn't take it seriously the first day either.  and he is right that it is a bit hard of him, after a very life threatening medical issue, to have her not be there to help him.  She easily could have waited a bit before doing the 'fat camp.'  BTW, how long is this camp?  And isn't it a great job that Kate has that not only could she take off weeks after Thanksgiving, but now even longer for her camp?  

I'm finding the time frame between kevin and sophie's divorce and now getting back together, 12 years, to be a bit incredulous.  12 years is a long time to be apart, you can become a completely different person, especially between 23 and 35.  That's major growing up time.  I think its a bit disengenuous for kevin to think he can just waltz back into sophies life like that.

I think that Beth was not only 'calling marriage' for the daughter's chess tournament, but for Randall to spend more time with his dad before he dies.  Remember, no one ever dies wishing they'd spent more time at work.

[ClareWalks]

Neither of them ages even a tiny bit. They could easily age them up a decade with makeup and it would look natural. I also find it interesting how Jack has kept the exact same hairdo and facial hair for his entire life basically ;)

[Hanahope]

Oh, I also didn't really understand Duke's conversation with Kate.  Is she really just supposed to 'give up' and accept her weight because 'that's who she is?'  That might be ok if she was, say 160 pounds, but she's clearly over 300 and that kind of weight leads to all sorts of problems, especially as she gets older.  Its not a matter of 'being accepted', obviously Toby accepts her as she is, and she was able to get a job based on her abilities.  Its a matter of health.    Sure, maybe she has to accept she'll never be 120 pounds and thin, but she could get down to a better liveable weight if she works at it now.  Believe me, it only gets harder as she gets older.  Duke, go back to taking care of horses and maybe leave the psych-therapy to someone who knows something.

[Granny58]

On 2/9/2017 at 4:22 PM, kili said:

He may prey on her biggest fears or appeal to her in some strange way.

I can totally get that he could appeal to her in a way.  All her life she's been the "fat girl."  Not a lot of male attention coming her way.  And now she gets a "bad boy" showing physical interest in her.  She may never ever go with him, she may report him, but there is a part of her that is excited by it.  You betcha.  

On 2/10/2017 at 7:44 AM, Mrs. DuRona said:

Jack, sure, maybe.  Although I did notice his eyes are more crinkly.  But Rebecca, I'll buy it.  I turned 38 in June, and had co-workers who thought it was my 30th birthday.  Unless I tell people my age, they assume I'm in my mid-late 20s, not approaching 40.  So, yeah, I take no issue with Rebecca looking so young.

me too.  Until I ran out of estrogen people often assumed I was 10 to 12 years younger.  Ah, estrogen...the fountain of youth.  

Edited February 10, 2017 by Granny58

[Phoebe70]

This was not my favorite episode.  Everything in it just seemed so contrived:  Kevin being in love with Sophie since 4th grade.  He hasn't talked to her in, what 12 years?, and now all of a sudden he can't live without her?  And just how does Jack manage to get into their old apartment and decorate it with strings of lights throughout to surprise Rebecca?

I personally thought it was crappy of Beth to pull the "marriage card."  It was an important dinner for Randall, especially with Sanjay being there.  Plus, Beth, WIlliam and the little sister would be at the chess tournament.  My husband has a job like Randall's and there are some times when he has to miss some of our children's school events, but that's life.  As long as at least one parent attends, I'm not sure why she had to pull the marriage card.  I sided with Randall on that issue.

Lastly, can Toby please just go away, permanently?  I can't stand the guy, and hated him even more so the way he acted at the fat camp.  

[Jax7917]

I feel like the camp arc would be better if they focused on it being hard for kate to keep up with other people or exercise in general because of how obese she is. Usually I like romantic story lines but i think for this specific story, they didn't need to go a romantic route. I don't think kate ever looks like shes into toby, so I don't see them lasting . But I don't think she'll cheat with the horse guy.

 

I know I'm in the minority but beth doesn't do anything for me. I hate that bossy wife attitude who always needs to be right.

[3 is enough]

What's up with Chris Sullivan's glasses in that photo? One round lens, one square?  Bizarre... And probably distracting as hell to look through all day long.

[roughing it]

I know it shouldn't be about "the ring", but maybe seeing the ring that Toby gave her was the catalyst Kate needed to realize that she really does have doubts about her relationship with Toby...which may intrigue her to see what's up with Duke.

[Cowgirl]

15 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

  Kate is a smart, independent, adult woman who happens to be fat.  I think it's insulting to her to compare anyone who comes on to her  to a pedophile.

Crikey!  I wasn't comparing anyone who came onto her with a pedophile.  I prosecute pedophiles and adult protective services cases, by the way.  My point was that DUKE's behavior may be seen as akin to some of these behaviors, not that ANYONE attracted to Kate is a predator.  Duke's conversation with Toby evinces my argument.  He admitted to looking for women while they are there, albeit he seems to like the ones who feel a bit better about themselves "after losing a few stones." He views the camp as some sort of feeding ground for his pursuits.  

You're right -- Kate's basically a strong confident woman. My point was that this guy seems to go for the vulnerable women, and his behavior is a way to test the waters. While Kate may not be the most vulnerable, he always approaches her when she is troubled about something -- flailing a bit, even if it's just for a few moments. It seems to me as though he's sounding her out, and testing her for vulnerabilities. He seems to have that radar for such things that so many predators possess.

[ethalfrida]

I don't know why I contnue to watch this show. The only people I like are Randall and Jack but even they are depressing.

[qtpye]

53 minutes ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I know I'm in the minority but beth doesn't do anything for me. I hate that bossy wife attitude who always needs to be right.

I know that this old show has been marred by scandal, but sometimes Beth reminds of old school Claire Huxtable from the Cosby Show.  I hated it when Claire would talk to Cliff like he was a small child.  There was one episode where she would not him take a tax exemption for raising their step grand child, that really annoyed me (the child's father wanted the exemption even though, the Huxtables were doing all the hard work).

I like Beth a lot more then I liked Claire, but I hate it when wives are shown as mothering their own husbands.  It's like someone who does not understand equal partnership relationships in the modern age, would think (the wife just orders the husband around and he says "Yes, dear.").

Beth calls marriage and instead of explaining why the heck the dinner is so important, he is goaded into the stupid chess game.  Of course, I still love Randall's family.

[Granny58]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I know that this old show has been marred by scandal, but sometimes Beth reminds of old school Claire Huxtable from the Cosby Show.  I hated it when Claire would talk to Cliff like he was a small child.  There was one episode where she would not him take a tax exemption for raising their step grand child, that really annoyed me (the child's father wanted the exemption even though, the Huxtables were doing all the hard work).

OT, so hope it is allowed.  In addition to your Claire hate, I HATED the Huxtables as parents.  They were always presented as "the best!" parents but to me it seemed they were condescending to their kids.   The Connor parents (Roseanne) always struck me as the better and more realistic example (and the family was a lot warmer toward each other).  HA!  I carried that around with me for 30 years.  LOL.  I feel better now.  

[Cardie]

On 2/10/2017 at 10:20 AM, ClareWalks said:

I also find it interesting how Jack has kept the exact same hairdo and facial hair for his entire life basically ;)

That's a necessity because he's going to be required to be Jack over most of his adult life, in random order, from week to week. I'm sure they have to choreograph beard regrowth times very carefully. I know you're probably kidding but once they decided on this type of narrative, hair flexibility got very curtailed.

22 hours ago, Phoebe70 said:

And just how does Jack manage to get into their old apartment and decorate it with strings of lights throughout to surprise Rebecca?

He said that it was vacant and he rented it for the day (didn't know you could do that, but it's the in-show explanation.)

[ShadowFacts]

5 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I thought Kate was a bit rude to Toby about the stick class.  I mean, she didn't take it seriously the first day either.  and he is right that it is a bit hard of him, after a very life threatening medical issue, to have her not be there to help him.  She easily could have waited a bit before doing the 'fat camp.'  BTW, how long is this camp?  And isn't it a great job that Kate has that not only could she take off weeks after Thanksgiving, but now even longer for her camp?  

When Kate was talking to her surgeon about scheduling surgery and she was having doubts, the doctor recommended the camp which I think she said was a month long.  I bet the doctor would like to know that there is an employee soliciting sex at the place she's referring patients to. 

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, Cardie said:

He said that it was vacant and he rented it for the day (didn't know you could do that, but it's the in-show explanation.)

I'm sure we'll find out soon that, in addition to being the perfect husband and father, Jack was also a genius way ahead of his time, and if it hadn't been for his tragically untimely death, he would have invented AirBnB.

Edited February 11, 2017 by chocolatine

[possibilities]

How To Get Away With Murder deals with hair changes using wigs. They use this device a lot in flashbacks on that show, and they also have Viola Davis's character change her hairstyle/wig in the present time. Beards are also easily faked. A clean shaven guy can have a false beard applied.

I personally don't care that much about the aging or non-aging of flashback Jack and Rebecca, but it's not all that hard to change their look if the show wanted to do it.

[mansonlamps]

On 2/8/2017 at 10:11 AM, JudyObscure said:

I probably should go straight to Unpopular Opinions, but it's about this episode so here goes:

Beth is controlling and bossy.  If they have an, "I call marriage," clause, surely it was intended for things like, "My mother just died, stay home from work with me."  Not a chess match.  It's great to attend your kids' events, but when they're in a whole lot of activities and you have a demanding job, you might just have to miss a few things. The kids should learn that having a cheering section isn't a guaranteed thing for every moment of life.

I thought she was controlling and bossy when she said "you can't cancer your way out of this" to William, but I was clearly in the minority after that episode when everyone thought that was Beth being awesome.  Maybe for those who haven't had cancer, it seems appropriate for those who haven't to decide when you get to play the card.  She's rubbed me the wrong way ever since.

On 2/8/2017 at 10:33 AM, bichonblitz said:

Oh, and Toby doesn't disappoint talking to Kate about how much he wants to do her. We need that at least once an episode, right? 

Right?  Eeew.

On 2/8/2017 at 11:50 AM, qtpye said:

This was a chess tournament everyone forgot about until saintly William turned the oldest daughter into Bobby Fischer. 

Thanks for making me LOL.

On 2/8/2017 at 11:09 PM, DesertCyclist said:

I'm torn between applauding the show for focusing on issues like obesity and hating that it makes Kate so one-dimensional. I'd find her character much more compelling if she were more than just her waistline.

I can only imagine that if you are the size of Kate, the weight issue is mostly all encompassing.  I know a 20 lb weight swing for me changes me from not thinking about my weight in the least to being bothered every day that my clothes don't fit right and I don't feel comfortable in my own skin.  I can't imagine what someone like Kate goes through on a daily basis.

On 2/9/2017 at 0:25 AM, Dowel Jones said:

In an odd way, Beth's "marriage call" may have saved Randall some serious grief.  If he had gone to the dinner with the client and Sanjay, I'll lay odds that Sanjay would have needled him relentlessly in order to make himself look better to the client.  Randall might then overreact, as he is primed to do already, which of course would get back to the boss.  Bad news on the doorstep.

OMG, if Randall needed his wife to save him from a potentially uncomfortable dinner, it would be astounding that he achieved the success in his career that has been portrayed so far.

On 2/9/2017 at 9:32 AM, tennisgurl said:

 

 

On 2/9/2017 at 3:38 PM, spaceghostess said:

I also think that the fact that we're debating the character of Duke at all indicates serious tone deafness on the writers' part. Someone (or "someones") up in there seems to have missed the myriad cultural memos through the last couple of decades re: what women appreciate and what we don't.

In other words they are portraying realistic people who don't always act 100% to the satisfaction of the increasingly sensitive world around them and do exist.

[Kira53]

45 minutes ago, possibilities said:

How To Get Away With Murder deals with hair changes using wigs. They use this device a lot in flashbacks on that show, and they also have Viola Davis's character change her hairstyle/wig in the present time. Beards are also easily faked. A clean shaven guy can have a false beard applied.

I personally don't care that much about the aging or non-aging of flashback Jack and Rebecca, but it's not all that hard to change their look if the show wanted to do it.

Annalise, like many black women enjoy a variety of hairstyles, braids, wigs, weaves, and straightening so making those choices to vary her look for different times and eras is an easy choice.   Personally I don't like to see men wearing a wig. When AnnaLise wears a wig we know she's wearing a wig and that's not a problem because she's a woman who does like to wear wigs. We're not supposed to believe that the hair is growing out of Annalise's head. It's not supposed to be believable.  Jack wearing different wigs would be very strange. I think he does vary his long hair look somewhat depending on the year.

  Lots of men who favor facial hair favor it most of their life. The men I know that had mustaches rarely if ever shaved them off. Obamas guy that had the really big walrus mustache still looks strange to me without his facial hair.  Axelrod.   I'm not sure about the current hipsters that wear a lot of facial hair. I'm  not sure whether they will make it a lifelong look because they're doing it maybe because of the trend. 

[spaceghostess]

32 minutes ago, mansonlamps said:

On 2/9/2017 at 4:38 PM, spaceghostess said:

I also think that the fact that we're debating the character of Duke at all indicates serious tone deafness on the writers' part. Someone (or "someones") up in there seems to have missed the myriad cultural memos through the last couple of decades re: what women appreciate and what we don't.

In other words they are portraying realistic people who don't always act 100% to the satisfaction of the increasingly sensitive world around them and do exist.

I don't think it's being overly "sensitive" to not appreciate this prick of a character and to hope he isn't the catalyst for Kate figuring out stuff about herself. Clearly the writers see some value in Duke for story purposes, but the fact that Kate has already confided in him not once, but twice, isn't believable when there are obviously plenty of women at the camp in whom she could confide. This would have been an opportunity to allow the character to make an actual female friend; she seemed to be making inroads with the woman she was walking with, and it would be cool to see more of that. Prior to this, last time we saw her talking to a woman other than her mom or Beth was when she worked for Jamie Gertz. As far as the portrayal of "realistic" people, I'm all for it. Are there dick guys like Duke out here in the real world? Sure; but I'm not giving This Is Us a gold star for reminding me of that fact. There are any number of "realistic" characters they could be presenting, and I wish they hadn't wasted this much creative energy on this guy.

Edited February 11, 2017 by spaceghostess

[Randomosity]

I just caught up on the episode. It really it telling - I couldn't be bothered with it until Friday, and I can't be bothered to read all the posts here. I'm just not really feeling it, especially now that I've seen this episode.

Duke is a jerk; Toby also is. But Kate's still awful if she's actually going to hook up with Duke. Kevin's a jerk as well. And, go figure, so is Randall. And Beth, even though everyone here seems to love her. I get supporting the kids and the marriage, but to make him miss a work dinner to sit through chess? While also berating a shirt he likes? Nah. And Jack is still too perfect. The heavy death foreshadowing is too much as well. I think Tess was my favorite today by default.

Probably just me, but it's not doing it for me anymore. Oh well.

[Guest]

The more feathers he ruffles the more I'm enjoying Duke.  And the writers have made it clear in the media that's part of what they wrote him for.  

I'm not sure what to make of the last bit of this interview but Fogelman seems to think a lot of people will like it if she hooks up with him and a lot will hate it.  Though he doesn't really suggest which way it'll go.  But I don't really know how to interpret that last sentence.  If he's being literal and you're spoiler averse, you might want to not read the interview.  

http://people.com/tv/this-is-us-creator-dan-fogelman-i-call-marriage-postmortem/

I think a lot of us don't love Beth.  She lost me when she asked Kevin "when are you leaving", told William he was overstaying his welcome and this ep did her no favors for me, either.  There are nicer ways to say these things.  To me, it's only cute when a kid or befuddled senior blurts out blunt, rude remarks, if that.  

[Dowel Jones]

55 minutes ago, mansonlamps said:

OMG, if Randall needed his wife to save him from a potentially uncomfortable dinner, it would be astounding that he achieved the success in his career that has been portrayed so far.

Any other time in his career, that would be correct.  However, he is shown being pressured more and more from outside the job, plus increasing pressure inside the workplace.  My point was that the dinner could have been the breaking point for him, with some consequences from his boss.  It may still happen.

I tend to go with the simplest explanation for the front door scenes.  In tvland, pretty much all interior doors look the same to the audience.  If he were shown going through a house to garage door, it might not be so obvious that he was leaving, despite a real life scenario.  An easily identifiable front door is a good plot device to show the audience that he is leaving the house.

[prican58]

On 2/8/2017 at 11:33 PM, Cardie said:

An Affair to Remember (1957), starring Deborah Kerr and Cary Grant. Sleepless in Seattle referenced it most directly.

But the granddaddy of them all is  "Love Affair" 1939 with Charles Boyer & Irene Dunne. 

No comments on the show as you are all giving great insight that I can't really add to. I did enjoy this ep as I have all the previous ones. 

The actor playing Duke (I haven't clicked the link yet)....He looked so familiar. At first I thought he was Jeremy Ratchford from "Cold Case" but JR is a bigger (taller) guy. I finally figured he played Ferg on "Longmire". I am impressed as the Ferg and Duke couldn't be more different.

[HeyThere83]

11 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 I never did buy that he painted that paining he showed the girls with all this in depth perspective.  Still don't.  

Same.....SAME.

[breezy424]

Given the nature of his job, I don't doubt that Randall spends many nights working late or wooing a client.  I also have no doubt that Randall has missed a lot of 'family' stuff because of his job.  And, we know that Randall is fiercely competitive which causes him to be a workaholic.  You could see the 'pain' he was going through when William stopped by his workplace and wanted to go to lunch, then shopping, then for a ride.

I'm not a die hard Beth fan.  I think she can be a bit domineering.  However, I do understand but not necessarily agree with why she called 'marriage'.  It wasn't just about their daughter.  It was about William.  I'm sure she and Randall have had many a fight about Randall's devotion to his job. This was the compromise - I call marriage - when she really feels strongly about something or else our marriage is in serious trouble.  Now Randall could have explained to her what was really going on with work but he didn't.  He also hasn't said anything about the tremor in his hand.  As far as I could tell, it was one hand (correct me if I'm wrong).  That's why I stated seven pages ago that it could be MS or most obviously, anxiety.  Wasn't it mentioned in one episode that Randall was temporarily blind?  Randall, because of his personality, puts himself into a pressure cooker and I see a possible break down coming.

I like Kate when she's with her brothers.  The rest of her life, she bugs.  She seems to stand up to other women but doesn't stand up to men. 

Edited February 11, 2017 by breezy424

[DebbieM4]

10 hours ago, roughing it said:

I know it shouldn't be about "the ring", but maybe seeing the ring that Toby gave her was the catalyst Kate needed to realize that she really does have doubts about her relationship with Toby...which may intrigue her to see what's up with Duke.

I think she's had doubts all along.  She's never seemed 100% onboard with this relationship, and I think she's always held him pretty much at arms' length (with just a very few exceptions).  I do agree that the ring may now give her the wake-up call she needs.  She's certainly not acting like a recently-engaged young woman who is in love with her fiance' and excited about a future together.

[Cardie]

3 hours ago, prican58 said:

But the granddaddy of them all is  "Love Affair" 1939 with Charles Boyer & Irene Dunne. 

Indeed it is, remade by the same director. I just didn't figure lots of folks here would have seen it; glad to meet another fan. I got to see a restored version of Love Affair at the LA FilmEx in the 70s, with the great Irene Dunne herself giving an interview afterwards.

[Kira53]

On 2/9/2017 at 8:13 AM, ShadowFacts said:

That's what I hope, too.  I'm not sure she and Toby are on very solid ground.  She didn't want to initially get involved, and once she opened up he started trampling boundaries right off the bat.  She broke it up, he came back with the grand Christmas Eve proclamations.  He has a brush with death, she accepts proposal.  This is all in the space of about four months.  They could work out, but maybe she is getting a wake up call via this horrible stable guy. 

I don't think that she's in love with Toby, I think she's in love with how Toby loves her and treats her.   Toby chose her, she didn't choose Toby. Kate said in the beginning she would have a problem dating somebody that was heavy but she has accepted Toby because he was great at courting her.   When you've been lonely a long time and someone really chases you and has grand gestures, you can fall in love with how they make you feel not how you feel about them. In the beginning it's not always clear to you which type of love it is.  

I do think she has more natural sexual chemistry with this new guy then with Toby. But Toby is pretty sexually aggressive or assertive about his sexual desires.   I just don't get the heat from Toby and Kate. I think she is intrigued with Dukes approach although a bit douchy than Toby's goofy approach to life.  Duke also has all his hair and his cuter (shallow) but then I didn't take all his bravado so seriously as many other people.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Kira53
spelling

[MsJamieDornan]

20 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

What you don't see much of is multiple guys going hard after a woman shaped like Kate.  If someone like her has a husband, it's most likely because they got married and had kids together when she was only moderately overweight

Thank you for pointing that out ! It's the truth.

[SlackerInc]

16 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I can't really agree with that.  First, there are nuances.  There are many degrees of sexual assault, not just violent rape.  As to consent, that is such a thorny issue and there is not just one legal definition that applies across the board.  I definitely don't think a court declaration of incompetence is the only threshold.  And it's really not all about seduction.  If a person cares at all about consent from a partner, which is required to make it not sexual assault, it's probably best to steer clear of the vulnerable, drunk or weak.  Just to be sure one is not forcing oneself while thinking what they are doing is practicing their seduction skills. 

"Assault" is, by definition, violent.  Or at least it used to be.

Again, there are ways men treat women, particularly involving dishonesty, that many or even most people would find appalling.  But a guy can use sleazy techniques to get a woman in bed with him that would lead almost everyone to denounce him as a total douchebag, but that still don't make him a criminal.  In the United States, the only (very rare) cases of conviction of "rape by fraud" involved someone slipping into a dark bedroom (a crime in and of itself) and pretending to be the woman's husband.  No one has ever been convicted for pretending to be a celebrity, a rich businessman, etc.

In a case like Duke's, it's even more clearly not anything remotely resembling a crime.  He's not even lying to anyone as far as I can tell.  He is simply practicing a form of seduction based on understanding certain psychological vulnerabilities.  Again, unless his "victims" actually have the legal status of "vulnerable adults" (a very stringent standard), it's not a crime to manipulate them into having sex with him.  It's unethical, but there are many unethical acts that are not crimes (and this is the point I think so many people miss: they think when it comes to sex acts, it's either ethical or some type of sex crime, which is just so far from the truth).

14 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

Neither of them ages even a tiny bit. They could easily age them up a decade with makeup and it would look natural.

Right.  I mean, it would be different if they were doing a sort of experimental theatre type thing where people are doing things like obviously playing different genders and races than their own, and no one was ever aged up no matter how far into their lives they go.  But Rebecca and Miguel have been clearly aged up with makeup (however badly) in scenes showing Rebecca at about age 66.  But this week, within the same episode, Rebecca is shown as a blushing bride in her twenties, and also nearly twenty years later after having and raising triplets, and she looks the same except for a little different hairstyle.  Therefore we're supposed to imagine that all the aging in the nearly forty year span we've been shown occurs in the last twenty years?  That's just not how it works.

14 hours ago, Granny58 said:

me too.  Until I ran out of estrogen people often assumed I was 10 to 12 years younger.  Ah, estrogen...the fountain of youth.  

And this is why I wouldn't call BS on it so much if the period of time when she looks absurdly young was when the character was in her late thirties.  From a woman's late thirties to mid-forties is when the estrogen and fertility fades out, and you can see it more clearly than any other similar-sized time jump in her life.  Some people will take that as a mean thing to say, but I think it's a lot meaner to essentially tell the 45 year old mothers of three watching the show "this is a reasonable expectation for how you should look right now".

9 hours ago, Cardie said:

He said that it was vacant and he rented it for the day (didn't know you could do that, but it's the in-show explanation.)

I have a studio apartment in my house that I rent out, mostly to college students.  If it were vacant, and someone (who had references and didn't seem like they were just going to party and trash it) wanted to rent it for a night, I'd be all for making a little extra money off it.  It would just depend on the landlord and whether they wanted to mess with it.  You'd almost certainly have to offer significantly more than 1/30th of the monthly rent; I think I'd not bother with it for less than 20% of a month's rent.  And I'd insist on a full-sized deposit, to be immediately refunded if they left it as they found it.

4 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

The more feathers he ruffles the more I'm enjoying Duke.  And the writers have made it clear in the media that's part of what they wrote him for.  

I'm not sure what to make of the last bit of this interview but Fogelman seems to think a lot of people will like it if she hooks up with him and a lot will hate it.

I interpret that differently than you do.  I think he's saying that either she will go into that cabin and make out (or more) with Duke, in which case most of the audience will hate it; or she'll go in and tell him off, in which case most of the audience will be happy.

[Guest]

Oh!  That must be right!   

[JudyObscure]

16 hours ago, Granny58 said:

OT, so hope it is allowed.  In addition to your Claire hate, I HATED the Huxtables as parents.  They were always presented as "the best!" parents but to me it seemed they were condescending to their kids.   The Connor parents (Roseanne) always struck me as the better and more realistic example (and the family was a lot warmer toward each other).  HA!  I carried that around with me for 30 years.  LOL.  I feel better now.  

I feel better, too, Granny58, I thought I was the only one. The Connor-love for their children, and even sad-haired David, was beautiful to see, but my heart actually hurt for little Rudy a few times when Claire would be raking her over the coals without a trace of reassuring warmth. 

A few have mentioned Kate's relationships with other women, and particular to this episode, her confiding in Duke and not one of the women. If this is intentional from the writers I think it's a good character trait to add to her. Like Kate,  I have two brothers, no sisters, and when I was younger, felt safer and less judged around men.  Kate has the additional baggage of her girlfriends betraying her at the pool while she was still very young.  It makes good narrative sense that she would confide in Duke while giving some of the women the side eye.

[ShadowFacts]

7 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Assault" is, by definition, violent.  Or at least it used to be.

Again, there are ways men treat women, particularly involving dishonesty, that many or even most people would find appalling.  But a guy can use sleazy techniques to get a woman in bed with him that would lead almost everyone to denounce him as a total douchebag, but that still don't make him a criminal.  In the United States, the only (very rare) cases of conviction of "rape by fraud" involved someone slipping into a dark bedroom (a crime in and of itself) and pretending to be the woman's husband.  No one has ever been convicted for pretending to be a celebrity, a rich businessman, etc.

In a case like Duke's, it's even more clearly not anything remotely resembling a crime.  He's not even lying to anyone as far as I can tell.  He is simply practicing a form of seduction based on understanding certain psychological vulnerabilities.  Again, unless his "victims" actually have the legal status of "vulnerable adults" (a very stringent standard), it's not a crime to manipulate them into having sex with him.  It's unethical, but there are many unethical acts that are not crimes (and this is the point I think so many people miss: they think when it comes to sex acts, it's either ethical or some type of sex crime, which is just so far from the truth).

No, assault in a legal sense is not always violent.  There are gradations, starting with unwanted touching.  The material you quoted which I wrote was referring to your response to a previous post (getting convoluted) that if Duke takes it all the way, it may be not harassment but assault.  Not what he has done up to this point.  If it goes physical, then notions of consent come into play.  I had remarked that being adjudicated incompetent is not the only line not to be crossed, and that it's wise to tread lightly, consent-wise, around the drunk, weak and vulnerable.  This may belong in the Social Issues or Speculation thread, so I'll take further discussion elsewhere, if any. 

[SunnyBeBe]

9 hours ago, Kira53 said:

I don't think that she's in love with Toby, I think she's in love with how Toby loves her and treats her.   Toby chose her, she didn't choose Toby. Kate said in the beginning she would have a problem dating somebody that was heavy but she has accepted Toby because he was great at courting her.   When you've been lonely a long time and someone really chases you and has grand gestures, you can fall in love with how they make you feel not how you feel about them. In the beginning it's not always clear to you which type of love it is.  

I do think she has more natural sexual chemistry with this new guy then with Toby. But Toby is pretty sexually aggressive or assertive about his sexual desires.   I just don't get the heat from Toby and Kate. I think she is intrigued with Dukes approach although a bit douchy than Toby's goofy approach to life.  Duke also has all his hair and his cuter (shallow) but then I didn't take all his bravado so seriously as many other people.

Hmmm.....maybe, I need to watch it again.  Maybe, I'm projecting.  This guy at the resort.....To me, if a guy came on to me like that....I would immediately suspect mental health issues or maybe, some kind of irreversible personality disorder that hopefully wouldn't result  in a retraining order.  Maybe, I'm too wary of strangers who try to push me around.   I have my boundaries and I am suspicious of others around me who don't seem to know much about that.  But, Toby, seems to struggle with that at times too.  

[MsJamieDornan]

22 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I feel like the camp arc would be better if they focused on it being hard for kate to keep up with other people or exercise in general because of how obese she is

Yes, when they chose someone that large for the part, that's really the only option they should go with. Her weight is an everyday  struggle.

[DrSpaceman73]

Horsedick/Dick is telling Kate the exact same thing that Toby told her several weeks back, which is some people are just happy being overweight and don't see a need to change.  Why is she listening to him and not Toby?  Plus I still think that guy would be fired pretty quickly for basically preying on these women at a vulnerable time and telling them the program is a waste.  It is not illegal, but I am betting it is against the rules of his employment there at the camp. 

Randall really did not need to be at his daughter's chess tournament.  She had 3 other family members there.  His wife making him go was ridiculous. 

And they are taking away HALF of Randall's accounts?  That's huge.  I didn't think he was struggling that much at work since his dad had been around. 

[sasha206]

On 2/7/2017 at 10:25 PM, ShadowFacts said:

The best part of the episode was where it dealt with Randall.  It is stark to see him so subdued where he is usually intense.  He's coming apart.

Up until now I haven't been bothered by Jack's near-perfection, but this was a little too much.  I liked his wedding vows, I liked the fact that he wanted to make the effort to keep things going 16 or whatever years later, but it felt overdone, with the getaway to the conveniently vacant apartment highly bedecked with lights and champagne, etc.  I have to say that even though I thought it felt overwrought, I am still appreciating Milo's acting. 

And of course, the perfect Jack yells at his friends for divorce!  Cause it's supposed to be FOREVER!  If you're friends were divorcing, sure that's upsetting.  But come on.   

And please, for the love of God.  Cut his hair.  Becca's hairstyle has changed.  Can't he get a fucking haircut?

Kate.  She's so damn hot that Duke is making problems with the fiance.  "Well, that just got awkward."  What?  

Edited February 12, 2017 by sasha206

[DrSpaceman73]

I just realized that Jack must have died more than 12 years ago based on this episode.  Kevin's ex, who he has not talked to in 12 years, knew about his mom being remarried.  And his dislike for the stepdad as well. 

Though she is friends with Kate, so could have heard from her, but just the way she stated it matter of factly made me think it wasn't knew since they had last talked or since they divorced.  No "sorry about the death of your dad" or "I heard your mom remarried"

Edited February 12, 2017 by DrSpaceman73

[prican58]

On 2/11/2017 at 0:40 AM, Cardie said:

Indeed it is, remade by the same director. I just didn't figure lots of folks here would have seen it; glad to meet another fan. I got to see a restored version of Love Affair at the LA FilmEx in the 70s, with the great Irene Dunne herself giving an interview afterwards.

Would love to have seen that interview. Love the old classics.

[breezy424]

Yikes.  Assault?  I didn't see any verbal or physical 'assault'.  I saw some harassment.  I can get Kate not reporting him the first time.  The second time, not so much.  Unless....Kate is hearing something that is getting to her or she's enjoying the attention.  We'll find out which it is next week when we see what she does...going to the cabin for whatever reason or her backing out before knocking on the door.  Duke is a jerk for sure but Kate is enabling him. 

[OtterMommy]

13 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

Yikes.  Assault?  I didn't see any verbal or physical 'assault'.  I saw some harassment.  I can get Kate not reporting him the first time.  The second time, not so much.  Unless....Kate is hearing something that is getting to her or she's enjoying the attention.  We'll find out which it is next week when we see what she does...going to the cabin for whatever reason or her backing out before knocking on the door.  Duke is a jerk for sure but Kate is enabling him. 

I was the one who first brought it up and I think that my original sentiment has been lost (not through anyone's fault..just through the drawbacks of commenting).

No, Horse Dick has not assaulted Kate...or anyone (as far as we know).  

The comment was made upthread that, given that the clients of this camp are in a therapeutic environment and are possibly in a place, emotionally, where they aren't thinking or seeing as clearly as they would be outside of the camp.  It appears that Horse Dick, as an employee of the camp, is probably aware of this and it seems that it is sort of his MO to try to exploit that for his own purposes.

My original comment was that IF it was true that Horse Dick was trying to exploit a patient's mental state for his own whatever and IF that patient was in such an emotional/mental state that their decision making was impacted, questions of consent come into play.  If Horse Dick is consciously (or even unconsciously) using the situation to his advantage and it gets to a point where it is physical, it could be considered assault.  

[breezy424]

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

I was the one who first brought it up and I think that my original sentiment has been lost (not through anyone's fault..just through the drawbacks of commenting).

No, Horse Dick has not assaulted Kate...or anyone (as far as we know).  

The comment was made upthread that, given that the clients of this camp are in a therapeutic environment and are possibly in a place, emotionally, where they aren't thinking or seeing as clearly as they would be outside of the camp.  It appears that Horse Dick, as an employee of the camp, is probably aware of this and it seems that it is sort of his MO to try to exploit that for his own purposes.

My original comment was that IF it was true that Horse Dick was trying to exploit a patient's mental state for his own whatever and IF that patient was in such an emotional/mental state that their decision making was impacted, questions of consent come into play.  If Horse Dick is consciously (or even unconsciously) using the situation to his advantage and it gets to a point where it is physical, it could be considered assault.  

But that did not happen and I think that is completely 'stretching' the situation.  JMHO.

[SlackerInc]

1 hour ago, breezy424 said:

But that did not happen and I think that is completely 'stretching' the situation.  JMHO.

He does clearly use the psychological/emotional dynamic at the camp, and his greater familiarity with it, to his sexual advantage.

He told Toby (before he realized who he was): "Bro, chin up: as long as you don't need a crane to get up off the sofa, you'll clean up around here.  This camp is crawlin' with women who just dropped a few stones and are feelin' frisky.  Especially on Thursdays.  That's when everybody gets their five ounces of white wine."

The question is whether this is (a) just a wily and opportunistic form of seduction, that is ultimately harmless to, or even a net positive for, the women he seduces; (b) a really douchey and sleazy lothario move that likely leaves hurt feelings in its wake; or (c) crossing a line into assault.  I think the real argument is between (a) and (b), and that any suggestion of (c) is absurd.

[possibilities]

I think there is something to the idea that Kate is not that into Toby.

When you are newly engaged, and haven't seen your fiance for a while, and he's newly recovering from a life threatening cardiac event and dangerous surgery, and he shows up to surprise you with gifts and sex, the usual response would be joy. Even if you couldn't leave your class or whatever, you'd probably be happy to see them, and would give them a kiss and tell them in a nice way, not feel like instantly angry. You also might be excited to show them around the place and introduce them to the other folks there, and consider it a nice gesture that they got a day pass and were taking an interest in what you were doing. It might seem like a way to get closer and share the experience. That's annoying if it's some random stalker, but it could be considered a form of respect and an attempt at bonding for people who are planning to get married.

Kate thinks Toby isn't taking her seriously, but it seemed to me that he was taking her seriously. She's never happy to see him. She's always annoyed by him.

I didn't think him showing up here was at all like when he crashed xmas or tried to get her to watch football with him or ditch work for a little nursing home singing. And the other people in the class seemed amused, not offended, by his hamming it up. Kate was the only one who was annoyed.

Toby can be a lot, but most people who are getting married are fairly enthusiastic about it, and I don't think it's necessarily so out of line for him to miss her and imagine she might miss him, given where they supposedly are in their relationship. Whether they should have gotten engaged in the first place is where I think there's a question.

Yes, he could have called and asked her before showing up, and told her how hard of a time he was having in general. But a lot of people would have missed their fiance in their circumstances, and been able to take for granted that it was a mutual feeling, and Kate never seems to miss Toby at all.

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

When you are newly engaged, and haven't seen your fiance for a while, and he's newly recovering from a life threatening cardiac event and dangerous surgery, and he shows up to surprise you with gifts and sex, the usual response would be joy.

I think you make excellent points, and I do more or less agree with your post, but to play devil's advocate maybe she's been exhausted and overwhelmed by the experience of dealing with Toby's illness and is in desperate need to recuperate and restore herself, and deal with her own issues. So the fun visit is not as much fun as it is an invasion. There are reasons when people are in rehab that they don't allow drop-in visits (so I've heard). What Kate's doing isn't technically rehab, but it is pretty close.

It did seem to me that she was pleased to see him until he expected her to drop everything to be with him. I'm one of the few who like Toby, but I was kind of on Kate's side in this particular case.

[MaryPatShelby]

On 2/8/2017 at 6:03 PM, SueB said:

Screw You Miguel:  Not because he gave bad advice to Jack -- no, that was helpful and he was a good friend there.  Screw you to Miguel for just letting his marriage go without any counseling or real effort.  So many people at this mid-life time start to think "is this all there is?" and they panic as they stare at the backside of 40+.  They put their families' through hell.  Marriage is not a "feeling", it is a commitment.  Now if they were truly having serious arguments and were incompatible with misaligned expectations -- then no issue from me.  But Miguel just "meh'd" his way out of a family.  That sucks IMO. 

Please please please someone explain to me the Miguel hatred, but nothing for the women in his life.  Rebecca married him, right?  Unless he held a gun to her head and forced her, why is their relationship all Miguel's fault?  And Shelly seemed completely in agreement and at ease with the divorce, so maybe she "meh'd" her way out of it too, yet I haven't read any anger toward her. 

Not that I'm saying we have to hate women, but Miguel is not operating in a vacuum here.

[ClareWalks]

11 minutes ago, MaryPatShelby said:

Please please please someone explain to me the Miguel hatred

I don't get it, either. 

[Clanstarling]

I don't understand it either @MaryPatShelby. I can't say I love the guy, but the anger about the divorce is pretty surprising to me. A huge percentage (50 or more, isn't it?)  of all marriages end in divorce, and counseling isn't going to help (imo) when the feeling's gone. It might help when there are problems with communications and other issues. And from what Miguel said, and the way his wife talked at the dinner, it was gone on both sides.

And as you said, it's not like he was the only one in either of his marriages. Making it all about him is ignoring the agency of the women he married.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Clanstarling
improve wording

[Kohola3]

13 minutes ago, MaryPatShelby said:

...someone explain to me the Miguel hatred...

I expect it's mostly someone replacing the Perfect Dad Husband Hero figure that is our Jack.