S01.E12: Mindy St. Clair / S01.E13: Michael's Gambit

[DrScottie]

On 1/20/2017 at 7:34 PM, Dowel Jones said:

In the final episode, Eleanor, Chidi, Jason, and Tahani will all team up on a group project, fix a swing in the playground, and earn enough points to move on up.

I love that whole final season of Parks and Recreation and that finale in particular. It's the way a comedy show should end. 

[bros402]

7 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

I think the whole "soul mate" thing was just part of the torture set-up. The idea that there is a single perfect partner for you out of the entire world population is actually rather insidious. If there is such a thing as a "soul mate" it is something which you become rather than merely are. For some it may happen more quickly than others but it still takes work to achieve and maintain.

Didn't Michael say that their Janet was built on the foundation upon which all the Janet's were based? I don't think they had to steal a Good Janet but they built their own (having to put up with Bad Janet's who can blame them?). Probably turn out to have done too good a job of it.

Michael said he stole a good Janet.

[pennben]

1 hour ago, DrScottie said:

I love that whole final season of Parks and Recreation and that finale in particular. It's the way a comedy show should end. 

All of Parks and Recreation is why I have faith in Mike Schur and I believe that a Season 2 of this show will work.  I say this despite hating resets as a general rule and even though I'm not sure right now what Season 2 could look like to equal or be better than this season.

Edited January 22, 2017 by pennben

[Spencer Hastings]

This twist blew my mind!  Very rarely does a show surprise me...this one did.  I legitimately thought Eleanor was kidding when she said it was really The Bad Place.  Well done, show. 

This definitely calls for a rewatch.  In the pilot alone Michael expresses his joy that the four of them will spend eternity next to each other, and Eleanor thinks her parents are torturing each other in The Bad Place.  Holy forking shirt.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Spencer Hastings

[CofCinci]

6 hours ago, Spencer Hastings said:

This twist blew my mind!  Very rarely does a show surprise me...this one did.  I legitimately thought Eleanor was kidding when she said it was really The Bad Place.  Well done, show. 

This definitely calls for a rewatch.  In the pilot alone Michael expresses his joy that the four of them will spend eternity next to each other, and Eleanor thinks her parents are torturing each other in The Bad Place.  Holy forking shirt.

I just rewatched the Pilot in the gym. Oh my! It was there all along.  Keyser Soze. 

[Big Mother]

I'm gonna write this in the season 2 speculation thread, but I have a feeling that janet will be instreumental in blowing Michael's cover. Even when she was rebooted the first time she remembered quite a bit about the characters. Unless her 'mind' was wiped too, she will probably end up blurting out something.

 

It's so funny, I totally see her as a robot. I forget that she is an actual human actress sometimes.

[sjankis630]

Quote

But when Michael tells Eleanor he is going to wipe their memories and tweak a few things, he says "I just have to run it by the big boss. Cross your fingers." He then does that by running it past Shawn. Plus, Shawn is sitting in the power position in the pitch meeting. It's pretty clear Shawn is Michael's boss.

I concur on this one. I actually remember Shawn saying that he didn't appreciate looking like a "weenie" in that judge's outfit. It makes me believe that after the pitch by Michael, Shawn was on board but owing to the 4 acting better than expected then Michael - and his crew - had to keep running interference in order to keep them in the dark. Shawn looked to me like he never signed on to be so involved "for only 4 people" like this.

[arc]

21 hours ago, possibilities said:

RE the comment upthread about "Mindy" possibly being a reference to Kaling, I suppose that means Micahel Schur considers himself an evil genius... or a bureaucrat from hell.

I'd known all along this was a Mike Schur show and yet it wasn't until Michael was revealed as a Bad Place architect rather than a Good Place one that I suddenly thought that he's deliberately named after Schur.

[jumper sage]

15 hours ago, Spencer Hastings said:

This twist blew my mind!  Very rarely does a show surprise me...this one did.  I legitimately thought Eleanor was kidding when she said it was really The Bad Place.  Well done, show. 

OMG!  Did not see it coming!  I had on the closed captioning, because I like to catch what Jason says, and it read "evil laugh" and I said, "Shut the fork up".

9 hours ago, CofCinci said:

I just rewatched the Pilot in the gym. Oh my! It was there all along.  Keyser Soze. 

Damn you!  Now I have to go back on Hulu and watch.  [walks away screaming, "I still have the 3rd season of The 100 to get through".]

[DrScottie]

I was going through the bulletin board that Michael put up as part of his plan for the neighborhood. I think I got most of them from a zoomed in DVR feed.  Eleanor got just about all of them when she figured it out.  

Elearnor: An only child, Arizona born and bred, Petty and selfish, Lacks Empathy.
Elearnor will cause Chidi to live an eternal ethical dilemma
Elearnor will get the attention Tahani craves from Jason / Chidi and the public
Eleanor will frustrate Jason by trying to hold him back and control his behavior

Tahani: International Socialite, Major fundraiser, major family issues
Tahani will appear perfect and flawless to Eleanor, causing her to feel inadequate
Tahani will provide Chidi with the nightmare of a third option on top of the other two Eleanors
Tahani will heighten Jason's paranoia by throwing extravagant parties and parading him around

Jason: Drug dealing DJ from Florida, Below average intelligence, Zero impulse control
Jason will cause Eleanor to live in fear that his public admission will send her to the Bad Place. 
Jason will torture Chidi by being his exact opposite: Stupid, impulsive and inconsiderate. 
Jason will make Tahani miserable by never talking or giving her the attention she craves

Chidi: Professor of Ethics. Wrecked by indecision, paralyzed by choices, writes endless, confusing manuscript he believes is brilliant
Chidi will cause feelings of unrequited love in Tahani
Chidi represents all the things Jason despises, intelligent words and the educational process at large. 
Chidi will point all of Eleanor's mistakes and *something something* how much she needs to improve (which will never happen)
They never did see Eleanor improving...or Jason marrying Janet. 
 

[Court]

That's amazing. Thanks for sharing!

[Kromm]

On 1/21/2017 at 1:18 AM, rue721 said:

They weren't bad people. They just didn't score enough Good People Points to make it into a real Good Place.

I think I want to say more about this, but am going to move it over to the Good Season 2 Anticipation, Predictions, Speculations & Wishes, because I had an interesting thought about how reliable (or unreliable) we are supposed to find anything Michael told our four heroes.

[Johnny Dollar]

I don't know how much I'm going to like this twist. I like bumbling, good-hearted Ted Danson much more than evil, conniving Ted Danson. 

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

I don't know how much I'm going to like this twist. I like bumbling, good-hearted Ted Danson much more than evil, conniving Ted Danson. 

I think we're going to see a lot of bumbling, good-hearted Michael, but we will know that he is evil, conniving....adding another layer.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

So "fake Eleanor" is real Eleanor, and "real Eleanor" is fake Eleanor!

And Janet is not the only one who gets re-booted.

A clue: since Good Janet told us she had no abilities in the "Medium Place"  as it was not her neighborhood, I was wondering how Bad Janet could function in the "Good Place." Well, it wasn't the Good Place, but it also wasn't her neighborhood. Or was it?

[rho]

3 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

A clue: since Good Janet told us she had no abilities in the "Medium Place"  as it was not her neighborhood, I was wondering how Bad Janet could function in the "Good Place." Well, it wasn't the Good Place, but it also wasn't her neighborhood. Or was it?

But then how can the stolen Good Janet function in what we now know is the Bad Place? Or can nothing function in the Medium Place?

[Affogato]

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 7:32 PM, Nailbiter said:

None of them are truly bad people. Maybe the point the show will end up making is that no one is purely good OR purely bad, and our heroes will eventually tear the whole motherforking' system down.

If that happens, and it sounds like a theme, they'd have to have access to the whole system, which seems to be mostly lava monster inhabited physical torture based hell. Maybe Janet?

[Mabinogia]

9 minutes ago, rho said:

But then how can the stolen Good Janet function in what we now know is the Bad Place? Or can nothing function in the Medium Place?

I'm thinking, after being stolen Janet was programmed for her "fake" neighborhood. Bad Janet functioning could have been because she was the original Janet assigned to that neighborhood or she got a special pass/permission since she was actually invited to the hood rather than having stolen a train and gone there.

[Affogato]

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 0:54 AM, Mockingbird said:

 

And I'm trying to figure out what philosopher would allow for both Tahani and Chidi to be bad people. Either only the end result matters and motivation is irrelevant or the fact that Chidi was trying so hard to be ethical and had the best intensions meant that he was good and the fact he irritated people (who still seemed to like him regardless?) doesn't really matter.

I'm not sure we have the whole picture yet, but I think one can make a case for Chidi's motivations being self seeking, he was seeking always to not make a mistake (or to not feel guilt) and not considering the feelings or needs of others. Self centeredness seems to be a bad place qualification, Mindy certainly has it, too.

[snarktini]

If Good Janet's abilities were out of range in the Medium Place, why did her walkie-talkie function work?

[ItCouldBeWorse]

25 minutes ago, snarktini said:

If Good Janet's abilities were out of range in the Medium Place, why did her walkie-talkie function work?

I can accept that that is a default ability that works anywhere, but how could she activate the train back to the Good Place?  Is it only her ability to interact with the afterlife internet that was impeded?

[MrSmith]

On 1/19/2017 at 8:14 PM, Mockingbird said:

I loved Michael, and the show's rewatch value just diminished for me with his whole endearing optimism and obsession with human things just being an act . 

Well, his obsession with (and enjoyment of) human things might not be just an act. It might be sincere. After all, this was a new model for them and none of that has been done before.

[truebluesmoky]

I like the idea of "Find Chidi" being a consistent thing Eleanor needs to do if their memories get reset again and again. I like the idea of her knowing that Chidi is the one that can help her. Even though Mike Schur made the concept of soulmates in the Good Place part of the evil plan and not a real thing, he DOES believe in the concept (The Office - Jim and Pam, Michael and Holly, Parks & Rec - Leslie and Ben). So I think another running theme will be that, ironically, Eleanor and Chidi are soulmates and the key to each other's survival in the Bad Place and possible eventual move to a Good or Medium Place.

[Traveller519]

58 minutes ago, MrSmith said:

Well, his obsession with (and enjoyment of) human things might not be just an act. It might be sincere. After all, this was a new model for them and none of that has been done before.

I agree, I think his interest in the human condition was genuine, hence his social experiment. I don't think he's a total Bad Place guy. However, it's still going to be tough to watch him without a side-eye as he acts joyful assuming the memory wipe has fixed everything.

[arc]

NBC put up the extended cut for "Michael's Gambit" just recently. I've been checking every day. =) Don't think I'll be able to watch it till late tonight though.

[Captain Carrot]

Does anyone remember what Janet said she added after she married Jason? I think it was some sort of rider. I'm asking because it sounded like she added something to her programming, and maybe being rebooted wouldn't delete it.

[Sansophia]

She said she initiated a Ride or Die protocol. Ride or Die definitely being a concept Jason told her about. It means to be with someone through whatever comes your way. 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Sansophia

[marketdoctor]

Quote

It's really fun when the writers have better ideas than I do, and I don't wind up wishing I could re-write the show myself.

YES.  

Also, I wonder where they'll go.  One possibility is that some of them figure it out, but then try to make the most of it, to avoid more conventional torture--or to reinforce that Michael is actually in a Worse Place, being tortured by the other demons with an idea that alllllllmost works.

If the third trial isn't a fake-out, the first one could be the trial of Adam and Eve, though that has bad Sunday School theater potential.  (Not all Sunday School theater is bad, but I'm open to the possibility.)

[arc]

Michael fro-yo'ed his hell! In the original version, the four handpicked victims are set up by personality to mutually torture each other, and to do it a lot due to constant proximity. In the new version, it's "made a little worse" so it will last longer (so he can have more of it). But if the four aren't set up as pairs of soulmates, Chidi won't feel the ethical dilemma of being paired with someone who he both thinks he should protect and yet doesn't want to lie for. Eleanor won't have the specific feelings of inadequacy without being next door neighbors (?) with the habitually name-dropping Tahani. And so on.

[jumper sage]

[Munching popcorn, reading new posts]

I like all theories.  Still have none of my own.  Maybe researching existentialism and various religious texts?

I will say this, all the actors are playing their parts superbly.

[Boilergal]

I thought it was a great season!!!  From the first episode I never believed Tahani was as good as she wanted people to believe she is - I kept waiting for her to admit she did something truly horrible that she was guilt ridden over, but Pride is a sin too.

I was thinking it's the whole reincarnation with your main group until you learn your lesson, and the earth is really Hell beliefs mushed together.    They will keeping getting their memories wiped until they figure out their respective lesson.

I hope it gets another season - I really enjoyed it.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Boilergal

[CurlyATX]

Count me in the "mind blown" group.  I loved this so much.  As much as I love Kristen Bell, I'd be ok if this show were only one season- it's just so perfect.

A few things:

1. Why does Tahani's British accent come through? Is it just to annoy Eleanor?

2. I wish Jason weren't so one-dimensionally selfish/stupid. 

3. I wonder why they didn't bring the fake Jianyu?

4. Who are all the other fake inhabitants? Are they other folks who work in hell?

[theatremouse]

2 hours ago, CurlyATX said:

3. I wonder why they didn't bring the fake Jianyu?

4. Who are all the other fake inhabitants? Are they other folks who work in hell?

3. Because their explanation of his "mix-up" was that Jianyu wasn't ever dead, just in a super meditative state. So they didn't need a fake Jianyu like they needed a fake-real-Eleanor (ie Vicki). I wouldn't be surprise if there isn't actually a Jianyu at all, live or dead.

4. I assume so, when Michael said they were with him. So he's an architect and they're whatever this universe chooses to call the torturers. I'mago "demon" for now for lack of better term and since it was sort of implied-ish that he, Sean, Trevor, etc anyone with them who's not a Janet is a celestial being of some sort. So until they give us a show-universe term, I'm running with that.

[iMonrey]

Quote

So they didn't need a fake Jianyu like they needed a fake-real-Eleanor (ie Vicki). I wouldn't be surprise if there isn't actually a Jianyu at all, live or dead.

Given that the whole reason "fake Eleanor" made it into the "Good Place" was a total lie, just as "real Eleanor" was fake, I think we can safely assume there was never a real Jianyu. 

[Rockstar99435]

On 1/22/2017 at 8:43 AM, Big Mother said:

I'm gonna write this in the season 2 speculation thread, but I have a feeling that janet will be instreumental in blowing Michael's cover. Even when she was rebooted the first time she remembered quite a bit about the characters. Unless her 'mind' was wiped too, she will probably end up blurting out something.

Yep. I think Janet's Ride-Or-Die protocol for Jason is going to carry over when she reboots and either she's going to start doing nice things for him without knowing why or refuse to do something that would hurt him or something like that and that's going to be one of the reasons Eleanor and the others realize something is wrong with the Good Place.

[CofCinci]

33 minutes ago, Rockstar99435 said:

Yep. I think Janet's Ride-Or-Die protocol for Jason is going to carry over when she reboots and either she's going to start doing nice things for him without knowing why or refuse to do something that would hurt him or something like that and that's going to be one of the reasons Eleanor and the others realize something is wrong with the Good Place.

Yes, I think so too.  Technically she hasn't died again -- just rebooted.  Ride-Or-Die Protocol is still in effect.

[hogwash]

Just here to say I feel dumb for not seeing this coming. What an amazing twist. I want to do a rewatch soon just to see it again with fresh eyes. But I knew it was forking weird that Michael punted that dog into the sun! I KNEW IT! 

[arc]

1 hour ago, CofCinci said:

Yes, I think so too.  Technically she hasn't died again -- just rebooted.  Ride-Or-Die Protocol is still in effect.

Ye-ess, but on the other hand they refer to the process as murdering Janet...

[Mabinogia]

I rewatched the series over the past two days and I must say, the twist does not ruin the rewatch. It was fun seeing these tiny little signs that seemed a little weird but didn't quite stick out the first time around are like "well, of course!" once you know where they really are.

The best part is, it didn't feel like a twist ending for the shock value but actually, when you look at the whole season, makes perfect sense. I hate when there is a twist at the end that is so obviously just to make us all gasp in shock and then everything is reset next season. Ironically, everything has been reset, and yet, I am loving the idea. I don't think the reset is because they don't have fresh ideas but is crucial to the story. No matter how many times Michael tries to use these people to punish each other, they will come together and help each other because, in the immortal words of Cory Matthews, "People change people."

[iMonrey]

What was the music Mindy had to listen to in the neutral zone? I remember it was only one band, and only the live version, but I can't remember what band. Anyone remember? To me, that would be hell, not neutral. I can't stand live versions.

[mahree]

4 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

What was the music Mindy had to listen to in the neutral zone? I remember it was only one band, and only the live version, but I can't remember what band. Anyone remember? To me, that would be hell, not neutral. I can't stand live versions.

 

The Eagles.  And I'm surprised it wasn't an endless loop of the live version of Hotel California only.  That would be HELLLLLL

[cpcathy]

Such a hilarious detail.

[HawaiiTVGuy]

On 1/20/2017 at 5:24 AM, Big Mother said:

 

The question is: Is Chris Baker real? Where are the others? Chidi wn't remember anything anyway. So what's the point? Should be fun watching them next season struggle to figure out what the fork is happening.

My take is Chris Baker is a plant that is supposed to be Eleanor's new torture device.  The hunk that is so self-absorbed, so not someone that can provide Eleanor with a meaningful connection that she has been missing all her life (horrible parental units) but is supposed to be a "soul mate", not just a random lay.

[theatremouse]

But since they knew about her thing about getting a mailman to take his shirt off, it's a better misdirect on the "new soul mate" because upon initially meeting him, she'd find him appealing so she won't catch on as fast that it's clearly wrong. Or something.

[HawaiiTVGuy]

On 1/20/2017 at 2:34 PM, Dowel Jones said:

One question:  Sean the Judge announces that this hearing was "Case #00003".  I wonder who the first two were.

In the final episode, Eleanor, Chidi, Jason, and Tahani will all team up on a group project, fix a swing in the playground, and earn enough points to move on up.

First thing I thought, and thought it would be significant, but now we know this whole thing is a sham...so I am guessing it has no meaning?  If it is significant, one of the  cases would have to be Mindy right?

[HawaiiTVGuy]

On 1/24/2017 at 5:28 AM, Boilergal said:

I thought it was a great season!!!  From the first episode I never believed Tahani was as good as she wanted people to believe she is - I kept waiting for her to admit she did something truly horrible that she was guilt ridden over, but Pride is a sin too.

I was thinking it's the whole reincarnation with your main group until you learn your lesson, and the earth is really Hell beliefs mushed together.    They will keeping getting their memories wiped until they figure out their respective lesson.

I hope it gets another season - I really enjoyed it.

I thought her issue was actually jealousy of her sister?

 

1 hour ago, theatremouse said:

But since they knew about her thing about getting a mailman to take his shirt off, it's a better misdirect on the "new soul mate" because upon initially meeting him, she'd find him appealing so she won't catch on as fast that it's clearly wrong. Or something.

Oh yeah...I think part of the "delaying" her finding things out is initially making it seem so great for her, but then his dim-witted self-centeredness would grate on her.  You know she doesn't suffer fools lightly.

[arc]

4 hours ago, mahree said:

The Eagles.  And I'm surprised it wasn't an endless loop of the live version of Hotel California only.  That would be HELLLLLL

But the Medium Place isn't supposed to be hell!

[possibilities]

3 hours ago, theatremouse said:

But since they knew about her thing about getting a mailman to take his shirt off, it's a better misdirect on the "new soul mate" because upon initially meeting him, she'd find him appealing so she won't catch on as fast that it's clearly wrong. Or something

It strikes me that it's very similar to giving Tahani "Jianyu"-- sounds like something Tahani would think she'd like... a "highly evolved" person with wisdom and spiritual depths... who nevertheless leaves her frustrated and lonely, won't speak to her, turns out to be immoral and frankly stupid, is totally indifferent to her, and she can't even complain! Likewise, Eleanor getting her mailman fantasy sounds good on paper, but if he's ignoring her in favor of working out, she won't be happy and she will think she can't let on because she doesn't want to get found out for not being happy in "the Good Place" and wind up being sent to an even worse Hell. Maybe not being able to complain is the torture!

On the other hand, giving Eleanor someone who sounds like her dream come true but makes her realize she actually wants more depth is a way to promote growth. Likewise, Tahani being unhappy with "the monk" could help her realize she's not as spiritually evolved as she think she is. Either stay unhappy or start self-reflection and personal development.

[mahree]

12 hours ago, arc said:

But the Medium Place isn't supposed to be hell!

Good point.  But that version is so bad it would definitely balance out the awesomeness that is the Eagles (like the great beer that's always served warm).

[HawaiiTVGuy]

17 hours ago, possibilities said:

It strikes me that it's very similar to giving Tahani "Jianyu"-- sounds like something Tahani would think she'd like... a "highly evolved" person with wisdom and spiritual depths... who nevertheless leaves her frustrated and lonely, won't speak to her, turns out to be immoral and frankly stupid, is totally indifferent to her, and she can't even complain! Likewise, Eleanor getting her mailman fantasy sounds good on paper, but if he's ignoring her in favor of working out, she won't be happy and she will think she can't let on because she doesn't want to get found out for not being happy in "the Good Place" and wind up being sent to an even worse Hell. Maybe not being able to complain is the torture!

On the other hand, giving Eleanor someone who sounds like her dream come true but makes her realize she actually wants more depth is a way to promote growth. Likewise, Tahani being unhappy with "the monk" could help her realize she's not as spiritually evolved as she think she is. Either stay unhappy or start self-reflection and personal development.

Makes sense...I guess Michael is working on the premise that the four will not be able to "grow" without each other, and thus will remain in their personal Hells.  Although, Jason is going to be tough to torture...he is such a spaz.