S04.E01: The Six Thatchers

[Eliza422]

11 minutes ago, Starchild said:

Nope, any fan of the Doyle stories would know there was something hidden in one. They even referenced Napoleon (which is who the busts were of in the story).

You don't even have to be a fan of the Doyle stories. It's a common trope in mystery / crime shows. My very first thought was there was something in it.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Eliza422

[Starchild]

It's common now. ;)

[VCRTracking]

Damn. RIP Mary. Also very disappointed in John too. Both for straying and being angry at Sherlock.

[zxy556575]

1 hour ago, Mom x 3 said:

John being angry was stupid as well, because she jumped in front of the damned bullet, which honestly makes her stupid too. If she had time to lunge four feet over, he could have moved his ass.  

Not only is Mary the most ingenious spy of all time, she's also faster than a speeding bullet.

[VCRTracking]

I did like Mary's Jewish New Yorker accent on the plane.

I know that they were going for inhuman animal noises that some people do get when they feel immense grief but John just came off as unintentionally funny making those sounds and pretty much all Twitter agrees.

Edited January 2, 2017 by VCRTracking

[The Bullpen]

I can only assume/hope that John's "affair" will be revealed to be something of a different nature.  I can't imagine what, though.  

[bmoore4026]

Apparently, Mary's decided to go on an airplane trip as that one lady from Grey Gardens.

Edited January 2, 2017 by bmoore4026

[Peace 47]

Moffat spoke with EW about this episode, although please watch out for spoilers in that article if you care about that kind of thing, because he does make one definitive pronouncement about what some may view as an open question from this episode.

What's interesting to me is that the author and Moffat both seem to agree that Sherlock was responsible for Mary's death.  Even though Moffat does say below that it's not Sherlock's "fault," there's another point in the interview where he says that "it’s his [Sherlock's] lifestyle that killed her in the end"

Quote

Q:  It was interesting because very clearly that whole situation could have been wrapped up without bloodshed had Sherlock not kept egging her on in that moment.

A:  We spent a long time trying to work out what his culpability was. Obviously, it wasn’t his fault. Mary tried to save his life. But having Sherlock unable to stop himself from showing off and that’s what riles her up to take the shot, I think it adds another layer. We were determined to make it as difficult for us as possible [as writers] to take on the following things: We will do grief in a big way, we will have the rift between them, and it will be real and will never completely go away — because you’ll always think about that, however imperishable that friendship is. At the same time, we’ve got to be a proper detective show with proper action, proper villains, proper mystery solving. We really went for it. There was a big debate about whether to kill her in episode 1, instead of more traditionally in episode 3 at the end of the [season]. But let’s not give ourselves that two years to forget how mad they are at each other. Let’s do it in a circumstance where we have to come back in a week and make this show work again. [snip rest of answer]

This kind of goes to my point that they are stripping agency from the women in this episode.  Is it really clear that there would have been no bloodshed without Sherlock?  Vivian shot Mary:  her decision to pull the trigger, and since she's facing treason charges, I assume she had nothing to lose as far as taking a last pound of flesh was concerned.  Mary saved Sherlock.  Her decision to throw herself in front of him (although one wonders why she couldn't have yanked him down to the ground and safety like she did John in the prior scene).  But no, Sherlock's lifestyle is responsible for all of this, even though he already killed Magnussen for Mary and took her bullet.  Can't the women be responsible for their own actions?

[cko]

I'm amazed by this show--there's nothing else like it and that's what I like about it. Sure, it's kind of all over the place, even irritating at times. I felt that even with Series 1. But overall, the fantastic acting, funny lines, bold and sometimes silly plot angles, and gorgeous look...well, it's not a straight-ahead solve-the-mystery show, and thank heavens for that.

I loved Amanda and the character of Mary but am fine that they will have two more episodes to see what it's like with her having been in their lives, and now gone.

I'm so curious what the deal is with that other woman, and maybe red herrings with the midnight texting.

[Ceindreadh]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I did like Mary's Jewish New Yorker accent on the plane.

I know that they were going for inhuman animal noises that some people do get when they feel immense grief but John just came off as unintentionally funny making those sounds and pretty much all Twitter agrees.

Yeah, sounded to me more like he was constipated or something rather than grieving. I figured that they were going to kill Mary sooner rather than later, but in all honesty I think they've killed the wrong Watson. (I'm not really a Martin Freeman fan. He always comes across to me as very bland)

 

Loved the scene where Sherlock shows up at Mary's hideout and gives her this long spiel about how he tracked her only to then reveal he'd tracked the USB key. 

[zxy556575]

5 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I know that they were going for inhuman animal noises that some people do get when they feel immense grief but John just came off as unintentionally funny making those sounds and pretty much all Twitter agrees.

The closed captioning determined that it was "anguished guttural sobbing."

[revbfc]

So your wife is an ex-Assassin, and your best friend can deduce an accurate biography of a stranger by just looking at the person.  What do you do?

"I'm gonna have an affair with a lady I met on the bus."

Great move, Watson.

[TexasGal]

2 shallow observations first:

1.  BC has the best voice.  I will probably listen to him (Sherlock) telling the Samara story a few hundred times.

2.  What was with John's hair?  Perhaps it was his newly acquired swoop that caused him to become a cheating asshole?

Because seriously, and it can't be said enough, how is John suddenly a cheater?  Nope.  And she was introduced with such typical Moffatt subtlety that I'm sure she's totally legit and not at all nefarious.  Maybe she'll end up being Moriarty's twin sister.  As I typed that as a joke I realised it could actually happen in Moffatt-land.

I'm so looking forward to more episodes of John being mad at Sherlock.  We really didn't have enough of those last season.

Edited January 2, 2017 by TexasGal

[Writing Wrongs]

2 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

Loved the scene where Sherlock shows up at Mary's hideout and gives her this long spiel about how he tracked her only to then reveal he'd tracked the USB key. 

I knew he would be there when she finally got to her destination and it cracked me up.

Is there a big distinction between saying "ass" and "asshole"? Because I swear PBS muted the "hole" part.

[benteen]

4 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

But no, Sherlock's lifestyle is responsible for all of this, even though he already killed Magnussen for Mary and took her bullet.  Can't the women be responsible for their own actions?

This is a Steven Moffat we're talking about here, though this was written by Mark Gatiss tonight.

[Primetimer]

Er, DESTINY. Either way, your favorite characters are suffering some pretty miserable fates. And this show is running out of ideas.

View the full article

[SharonH58]

9 hours ago, alphacat said:

 

My concern is more about what they will do with the baby - while Sherlock the babysitter was fun, I'm not sure I'm excited about a baby in the mix.

I agree.  How is a baby going to fit in?  You can't run off on a case or even go to work.  John needs a full time nanny, but then maybe his new girlfriend who is obviously some kind of plant can move in and take care of the baby.  That whole thing with him texting her was SO NOT JOHN.  And I think something happened between them when he got off the bus and there she was waiting for him.   I agree with everyone that part of John's anger is that he fills guilty for that but it wasn't Sherlock's job to protect her for the rest of her life.  As Mycroft said.  I hope this whole season isn't wasted on John and Sherlock's guilt.  And adventures in babysitting.  :(

[Driad]

Vivian was played by Marcia Warren, who also played Penelope on “Vicious.” Penelope’s main characteristic is her memory problem, which I do not find amusing, so if I watch “Vicious” in the future I may pretend that Penelope has Vivian’s backstory.

In ACD canon, John Watson married Mary Morstan; they met on a case and she later died.  Later stories refer to John being married. Some readers speculate that he was married two or three times.  Others figure that ACD just didn’t bother to keep his status consistent.  None of the stories mentioned his having a child.

[MissLucas]

I agree with the too much Mary-sentiment. There was already too much of her last season and I hated her assassin background - there was more than a whiff of River Song in Mary. I like River Song, I like Amanda Abbington, I even could have liked Mary outside the Sherlock universe. But as it is I was impatiently waiting for her demise (not being spoiled but plot logic and canon made it pretty inevitable).

I wish we could move away from all the spook business and deal with a simple (not simple) case like the ones briefly touched upon during the manic montage of Sherlock waiting for Moriarty to strike.

Canon Watson was always a bit of a womanizer when he was single/widower (i.e. Doyle having forgotten about his marital status). I'm not sure why they added the red-head flirt to Watson's plot except of course to have him fall into a massive guilt trap. It wasn't really necessary as there's already enough drama with him blaming Sherlock for Mary's death. Maybe she's a set-up for something else but I don't see why that could not have happened after Mary's death.

'The other one' and 'Sherrinford' are the two things that keep me hooked, well that and Cumberbatch's voice plus the beautiful cinematography. Other than that I still wait for the season 1 and 2 spark to return.

[festivus]

Well I expected Mary's death but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I really enjoyed the actress and the character. I'm also really disappointed in John and what he was doing was something I did not expect.

I think his anger at Sherlock is misplaced anger at himself.

[PaulaO]

The red headed bus woman looked exactly like Mary, especially her mouth.  I figured it was Mary in disguise, trying to lure John into an affair, then pulling off her wig and saying "aha, I knew you could be seduced."  Or it was a "game" between John and Mary to put some spice back in their marriage after the baby.

I'm done with the AGRA story and hope Gattis has put it to rest, along with "miss me?"  Moriarty has grown stale.

[MisterGlass]

The only contribution that having a baby present made to this episode was having Sherlock berate 'Watson' on the poor logic of both wanting the rattle and throwing away the rattle.

From the review:

Quote

She does a comically-broad-bordering-on-offensive impression of an elderly Jewish lady.

Quote

Q: Huh. You could almost get the impression that the people in charge of this show don't think much of women.

A: You almost could.

I was also uncomfortable with the impression.

The incidents of women being undercut on this show are building up.  Also, the idea that Sherlock is more responsible for Mary's death than Mary is ridiculous.  Like the slow motion bullet.

[Charlesman]

Didn't like this one. Very much running out of steam, and no actual mystery. Sherlock drawing the woman's attention to save Mary, then her jumping in front of the bullet anyway, seemed off. John was totally off. The whole episode was off. 

I assume the baby will go to TV's magic disappearing baby land, perhaps to be cared for by the oldest Cunningham son and the other kid from Family Matters. A few more mentions this season, then shipped away. 

And totally agree with the up thread point that this series feels the need to stuff in filler to make the run time, while CBS's Elementary can barely fit its complicated mysteries into 44 minutes. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

John is many things, but a guy who cheats on his beloved wife with some random chick who looked at him while he was on the bus? Nope. There are men out there who would do that without blinking an eye, but John is not one of those people. He is loyal almost to a fault so to see him getting sucked into this was ludicrous. Similarly, I can't see him blaming the onus of Mary's death on Sherlock, and certainly not to the point where he would tell Sherlock to GTFO.

I agree that the episode felt padded. I'd rather they make each episode shorter (45-60 minutes) and have four or five episodes per season instead of three.

[Amarsir]

Setting aside other issues, not least of which is "what the hell did they do to John's character?"...

Am I to understand that the elite team of super-spies each had a thumb drive of compromising information ... which they would then carry on missions? That's why AJ hid it in the bust, because he was about to be captured, right? Did the 2 dead teammates also hid this information in random objects from that room?

[7thton]

John is many things, but a guy who cheats on his beloved wife with some random chick who looked at him while he was on the bus? Nope. There are men out there who would do that without blinking an eye, but John is not one of those people. He is loyal almost to a fault so to see him getting sucked into this was ludicrous. Similarly, I can't see him blaming the onus of Mary's death on Sherlock, and certainly not to the point where he would tell Sherlock to GTFO.

I agree that the episode felt padded. I'd rather they make each episode shorter (45-60 minutes) and have four or five episodes per season instead of three.

"John is many things, but a guy who cheats on his beloved wife with some random chick who looked at him while he was on the bus? Nope."

Agreed. Why are the writers on this show trying to destroy Watson with this sloppy plot line?

[7thton]

"The good news is that the cops found blood on one of them!"

It was Holmes who found the blood.

3 hours ago, lordonia said:

The closed captioning determined that it was "anguished guttural sobbing."

I chuckled at that too...

[7thton]

30 minutes ago, Charlesman said:

Very much running out of steam, and no actual mystery.

This is my biggest gripe with the show. What would be wrong with Sherlock/Watson just, you know...investigating a mystery and then solving it in a stand-alone episode?

The biggest issue with this show is that they are intent on having an over-arching, continuing plot-line (Mary and Moriarty, for example). There are too few episodes that are released too infrequently for this to be effective, IMHO. The plots also seem forced (Moriarty...Moriarty again!...Moriarty strikes back!).

[Winter Rose]

Aww I liked Mary. I figured she would die but I didn't expect it this soon. Although in hindsight I suppose I should've suspected that the amount of Mary/Sherlock scenes was too good to be true. I realize in dying moments there's that want to atone but I actually didn't think she needed to apologize for shooting Sherlock when he never held it against her. He understood and was only made more protective of her. That said, there was something admittedly poetic that Mary shot Sherlock once and then she dies taking a bullet that was meant for him.

John Watson is the worst. His behavior wasn't even OOC for me, I always saw him as flirting with everything that moved. I'm trying to be understanding though about blaming Sherlock for Mary's death because, much as I hope he comes to terms with his anger at himself, misplaced blame in times of grief isn't unheard of.

I'll otherwise refrain from saying anything about Moriarty since they always save things pertaining to him for the finales but I do love that Sherlock clearly misses him. (I miss him too.)

Edited January 2, 2017 by Winter Rose

[Peace 47]

1 hour ago, 7thton said:

This is my biggest gripe with the show. What would be wrong with Sherlock/Watson just, you know...investigating a mystery and then solving it in a stand-alone episode?

The biggest issue with this show is that they are intent on having an over-arching, continuing plot-line (Mary and Moriarty, for example). There are too few episodes that are released too infrequently for this to be effective, IMHO. The plots also seem forced (Moriarty...Moriarty again!...Moriarty strikes back!).

Good point that it's hard to have a continuing plot when there's 3 years between seasons, but then, even worse, is that when they come back, they don't even wrap up the hanging plot strings!  Moriarty's video message was the big cliffhanger 3 years ago.  They spend an entire special last year keeping that tease in the back of our minds (or on the tips of our tongues, like Moriarty's gun) while they played at Victoriana inside Sherlock's head.  But now we have to wait through 2 more placeholder episodes until this year's finale to get answers on what game Moriarty set up before his death (or who is doing it on Moriarty's behalf posthumously).

There's not even emotional continuity between episodes, either.  A moral that I took from Abominable Bride is that Sherlock respected John and realized that if he brought John in on his plans, it would go easier on Sherlock ("there's always two of us").  It was kind of the capper to the emotional upheaval of S3.  But John's too busy and tired to be of any help.

Seriously, did John contribute anything--thought, physical protection, emotional support--to any case this week?  And he is easily replaced for long stretches with a balloon, a dog or in cases where Sherlock actually needs to talk something out, an international assassin.  Mycroft told John to take care of Sherlock last year on the plane, and John looked like he took that to heart.  But  that's all sidetracked for baby jokes.  I've always been a huge cheerleader of the Sherlock and John relationship and what they do for one another, but at this point, I finally just want poor Sherlock to get away from John, as Sherlock has been shot, exiled and emotionally abused, all in the service of protecting John's family.  This show won't be happy until Sherlock is dead for his efforts.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Peace 47

[tankgirl73]

1 hour ago, 7thton said:

The plots also seem forced (Moriarty...Moriarty again!...Moriarty strikes back!).

To be fair, though... Moriarty didn't actually DO anything in this episode at all. Sherlock kept expecting Moriarty's game... and enjoyed making up stories about it... and thought that he discovered the game at least once... but in every case, he was wrong. The only existence of Moriarty was Sherlock basically wanting Moriarty to have left a game so that he could play it.

If it's coming up in a later episode, we can complain about it then. But right now, there's no *actual* Moriarty Strikes Back... it's just Sherlock dealing with the loss of his arch-enemy.

[Gardencrown]

3 hours ago, TexasGal said:

What was with John's hair?  Perhaps it was his newly acquired swoop that caused him to become a cheating asshole?

THANK you! I was shocked -- not exactly by Mary's death -- but by reading so many responses that didn't address THIS glaring issue. WTF is John doing with Douche Hair? How could Sherlock refrain from making fun of it? Talk about being OOC!!

That aside, I will need to rewatch because I always feel like I miss certain things. But I completely agree that John's behavior was so weird. As someone said earlier, if Mary being a super-spy assassin who lied to you didn't destroy your loyalty, then I hardly think having a baby would do it. And I HATE that they destroyed the funny moment of John and Mary in bed discussing whether the baby was Satan or merely an omen (which is exactly how you feel when trying to sleep and the baby cries) by having John text bus girl. Dumb.

And one more thing: I am clearly lacking in any kind of good lair. Sherlock had at least a couple of good lairs. I don't even have one.

[catrox14]

What a weird episode. There was both too much and too little of Mary. . But mostly there was no warmth and heart IMO  to sell the emotional blow for John and far too little John

I had no emotional connection to Mary and John and I don't care that she died.i can't relate to John's grief over Mary like  his grief for Sherlock because there was so little time building their relationship. I KNOW Mary was played by Martin's wife but they have no onscreen chemistry IMO.

The time they spent on Johns Not Affair was too little and too much.. I'm not even sure it was a physical relationship but more emotional. Was John supposed to be the stereo typical lonely parent whose spouse was always gone and he felt ignored. Like I just didn't care other because it  was so unexplained.

Did Sherlock fall in love with Mary in some way? Or was he so bent on protecting her because of his love for John? IMO Johns anger towards Sherlock was IMO his guilt for the "affair".

Maybe I'll enjoy it more upon rewatch but I was ultimately disappointed.

[mcjen]

Most of my reactions have been covered by others.  In general, I enjoyed the episode, but here were a few of my thoughts;

1.   The Red-Haired Other Bus Woman - Given the ambiguity of the text messages, I kept expecting some surprise to be revealed about her relationship to John.  At one point, I thought she was going to be someone set up to do this by Mary somehow, perhaps keeping John distracted so she (Mary) could take off for that sudden trip abroad.  Except, it didn't make any sense, since Mary wrote him a letter basically admitting hey, I have to take off to take care of something.  So why would she need to set up a decoy?  Also, I'd have to rewatch to see if Red-Haired Girl appeared before or after Mary found out AJ of AGRA had re-emerged.
2.   The whole AGRA thing - as mentioned in the Previously article:

   Quote

   The point of the flash drives was -- bear with me here, because this is all kinds of stupid -- for all four members to have dirt on the other three, so nobody could sell anybody else out. (Like I said.) That's why Ajay was so keen on finding the drive, so he could track down Mary and kill her.

   This seemed beyond stupid to me.  Yeah, super-secret mercenaries are going to carry around flash drives on their persons with all the identity info on everyone in the group.  Seriously, I would think even possessing such a thing - under lock and key, in the safetyest of safety deposit boxes - would be sufficient grounds to get you drummed out of Super Secret Mercenary Clubs for all time.

3.  Much as I've enjoyed this whole Sherlock remake, I don't think I'm going to be sorry if they wind it up this season.  They are, indeed, running out of ideas.

4.  As 7thton wrote: 

   Quote

   The biggest issue with this show is that they are intent on having an over-arching, continuing plot-line (Mary and Moriarty, for example). There are too few episodes that are released too infrequently for this to be effective, IMHO. The plots also seem forced (Moriarty...Moriarty again!...Moriarty strikes back!).

   Yep.  The over-arching concept to me has always seemed to be "Is Sherlock actually nuts, or will he go nuts?", with corollaries of "Can Sherlock accept how much he needs human contact (John)?  Can John continue to be a friend to someone who is so demanding?"  The same latter two issues were always underlying in the original Conan Doyle stories, but they were very much subtext and they only bubbled to the surface infrequently.  When you turn the burner on high on these things right from the beginning as "Sherlock" does, you wind up having to ramp events/emotions up to 11 all the time.  And then to 12, and then to 13.  Until, eventually, the manipulation simply stops being effective.   

So, much as I've enjoyed it all, I think I'll be just fine if this series is the last.

[LiveenLetLive]

Quote

2.  What was with John's hair?  Perhaps it was his newly acquired swoop that caused him to become a cheating asshole?

I think that Freeman has been hitting the gym and has let his hair go stylishly gray--he did look good I thought. That a younger woman would give him the eye on a bus is not implausible.

As for shoe horning women onto the series (Gatiss is not a natural writer for women, and judging by his work on Doctor Who, Moffat can be grossly sentimental about female characters) I hope that they will quit trying, I am always focused on the relationship of Holmes and Watson--and no, I don't need constant assures that Watson is "straight" (nor am I a "fan fic" type about them either, their orientation is unimportant IMO.) All that said I did love the "Belgravia" episode which has just the right touch of erotiscism for a character as devoid of the impulse naturally as Holmes, and the Irene character was well written--but happily a one-off.

Hopefully, with Mary out of the way (and the baby off to live with an "Auntie" or whoever) the series will get back to what made it so good in the first place, the relationship between the men.

[Chaos Theory]

As much as I agree that this is a show about the relationship between two men.  That just bores me after awhile when it just become about that.  Shows where there are no major female characters are just so boring no matter how well written.  I guess two men take on the world is just not a trope I enjoy.  

Edited January 2, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[tennisgurl]

So, it looks like they are going with the whole "it was Sherlock's lifestyle and showboating that killed Mary" thing, according to that interview that Peace 47 posted, to which I say...nope. Sorry show, I am not buying it. Mary choose to jump in front of Sherlock, that was her choice, not his. Yeah, maybe he did rile up traitor secretary, but thats pretty much just how he is. John and Mary both know that, and have never really told him to stop riling up the bad guys, so this is hardly some big hubris thing. Besides, maybe I was seeing something that wasn't intended, but it looked like Sherlock was trying to keep her pointing the gun at him, and not at Mary, so he was TRYING to protect her, she just made a choice that he never could have seen coming. And his lifestyle? Did they forget Mary was a freaking assassin before all this? And she willingly joined up on Sherlock's cases? She hardly lived a safe little life before this episode, now did she?

As for John being angry at Sherlock now, because its "his fault"? Bullshit! Sherlock is his best friend and has driven himself nuts trying to be there for John and Mary, and he knows that. Now that his wife is dead, your telling me he wouldn't want to be with his best friend, who he has said is one of the people that he loves most in the world? Nope. I could buy him projecting his guilt onto Sherlock at first, but this is now apparently supposed to last all season! Dude, get over it! Its so clearly not his fault its hilarious. We only have three episodes a season, we dont have time for this crap! 

Who is this asshole, and what has he done with John Watson?

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Maybe Moriarty's final "game" was to do nothing at all, which he knew would leave Sherlock paranoid and eternally on edge.

Edited January 2, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[SusanSunflower]

Mary being secret ninja ultra assassin was my personal jump-the-shark moment, fwiw, and I have never (ever) been sure if she really really "loved" Watson or just his proximity to fun&games Sherlock (as much as any ninja super assassin "loves" anyone) ... so for her to throw herself in front of Sherlock and sacrifice her life (and being the mother of her baby) again cast doubt on her character ... Watson should be FURIOUS with Mary for sacrificing herself to save Sherlock ... who -- he had already warned -- was deliberately winding up Norbury and thus really didn't deserve such a sacrifice from Mary or anyone ... recklessly run with scissors / play with matches, get hurt.  Mary's sacrifice did not save civilization as we know it ... it left Watson a widow and Rosamund motherless. 

I wondered if Molly would "grow into" being a Norbury, being treated as a prop/go-fer.  She, yet another character, drawn in female-fashion to Sherlock's orbit because .... 

The red-headed bus lady was something of a manic pixie type that someone as gray as John Watson would be stunned to get the attention of (aside from being 15 or so years younger). The cliche is that fathers of young babies often feel like props themselves, losing any competition for their wive's attention and are thus "easy prey" (yes because they are men with hormones) to the attentions of attractive young women. 

Mary's half-way-round-the-world evasion marathon was utterly implausible and indulgent and ended ridiculously ... that's what happens when writers are declared "genius" -- it was fun to watch but it would have been time better spent watching John with baby after Mary's death, processing his anger and grief. Agree that -- since it was already done-to-death -- John "blaming" Sherlock for Mary's death is so misplaced I think even John would quickly realize -- one of those "if Sherlock had never come back" that has no place given the Mary-Ninja-Assassin other-half of that pairing.  

I expected to be more entertained and/or amused than I was ... like a child doing magic tricks or demonstrating skateboard moves, my saturation point has been reached, my curiosity wrt "what will they do next" dulled. 

eta:  Yes, the changes to John and Mary's appearance were abrupt and unexplained -- how did Mary shed her pregnancy weight gain? Also as someone mentioned elsewhere, the fact that Watson is a doctor and even has battlefield experience really didn't demonstrate itself during Mary's death scene (even if he had simply forced everyone away because he "knew it was hopeless" it would have resonated) ... When Mycroft and Lastrade showed up, I wondered why Mary and John were there ... etc. etc. ad nauseum) 

Edited January 2, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[halopub]

15 hours ago, peridot said:

The red head had to be stalking John, right?

A redditor was able to screencap one of the bus stop encounters that got my attention.

So E's got suspect, fake-looking hair and quite the timing to John's long text.  Then there is the shelter advertising with Toby Jones. The lines include both "he's back" and "it's murder."

Edited January 2, 2017 by halopub
punctuation

[cko]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I had no emotional connection to Mary and John and I don't care that she died.i can't relate to John's grief over Mary like  his grief for Sherlock because there was so little time building their relationship. I KNOW Mary was played by Martin's wife but they have no onscreen chemistry IMO.

This is an interesting point, because I DO feel they had chemistry in Series 3, but now of course we know they were filming this episode after having split up, so perhaps that had an effect on their ease, or lack thereof, together. My sister said this episode had melancholy, I wonder if this was part of it.

Not that they aren't great enough actors to act through it, but chemistry and ease are hard to fake, I'd think.

[Starscream]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

So, it looks like they are going with the whole "it was Sherlock's lifestyle and showboating that killed Mary" thing, according to that interview that Peace 47 posted, to which I say...nope. Sorry show, I am not buying it. Mary choose to jump in front of Sherlock, that was her choice, not his.

Well, I think that's why Moffat said it's not Sherlock's fault.  He does bear some responsibility though because he did agitate Norbury enough for her to pull the trigger even after Mary warned him to stop.  John wasn't there at the time, of course, so that's not necessarily why he was angry, but I think the point is that Sherlock deserves to feel guilty enough for him to ask that favor of Mrs. Hudson while still being innocent enough for things to pick back up with Watson fairly quickly.

[PaulaO]

Clarifying question.  Did AJ want to kill Mary because he thought she betrayed AGRA?

And where were the owners of the house, let alone the police, when Sherlock and AJ were brawling?  (which was total filler and should have been cut)

[ElleryAnne]

I'm glad the show is back, but I didn't think much of this episode.  

I agree with everyone upthread who thought John's affair was OOC.  Yes, he flirts when he's single, but I don't see him as a guy who'd engage in an emotional affair while married.  No bus wife for John, please.  

I love Sherlock and BC, but at the risk of being one who says that the emperor's not wearing any clothes, does anyone but me ever think he needs to shut up sometimes?  I don't want him to stop being him, but sometimes it's as if they're trying to make him a parody of himself.  

I like Mary, but I don't mind her being gone now.  I'm sure there's potential for a good version of Sherlock in which Mary is a clever super-assassin spy trying against all odds to live a normal life, and Watson actually stays home and takes care of the baby.  But this wasn't going to be that show.  Anyway, it was Mary's choice (or instinct) to save Sherlock's life.  I don't blame him for her doing that ridiculous Hope Solo action dive to block a bullet, though it does feel like a poor plot device to have her die that way just to up the guilt and angst.  (Personally, I'd rather have had her die in the showdown scene with AJ.  It would have suited the story better.  Or she could have just gone away to keep John and Rosie safe, and not die at all.)

Did Sherlock show Mycroft a picture of Rosie and then talk like an almost normal person about human relationships, or did I hallucinate that? (btw, I realize Rosie was actually a doll in at least some of those scenes she was in, but it always looked like people were holding her wrong.  I kept telling them through my TV to lift her up a bit.)  Poor Mycroft.  He usually seems content in his calm superiority.  This ep, he just seemed vacant and middle-management-y somehow.

This episode made me feel sad for Mycroft, but not for John.  That's probably not what they were going for.

[festivus]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I KNOW Mary was played by Martin's wife but they have no onscreen chemistry IMO.

You know it's funny but I think when it's the three of them together (Sherlock, John, Mary)  they have great chemistry and that's what I'm going to miss. Just John and Mary not so much.

[catrox14]

50 minutes ago, cko said:

This is an interesting point, because I DO feel they had chemistry in Series 3, but now of course we know they were filming this episode after having split up, so perhaps that had an effect on their ease, or lack thereof, together. My sister said this episode had melancholy, I wonder if this was part of it.

I had no idea they had split up until now. That's kind of sad :(.  For me, on screen I never thought they had any on screen chemistry. YMMV

[buttersister]

13 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Damn. RIP Mary. Also very disappointed in John too. Both for straying and being angry at Sherlock.

Sadly, this showed up in my Twitter feed at the very beginning of the ep. So thanks for that, Amanda. It made it easier to root for the ending. Again, Watson married, sure. To a super spy who sacrifices her life for a pal instead of pushing him aside so they could both enjoy raising her daughter? Oh, Moffat.

36 minutes ago, PaulaO said:

 (which was total filler and should have been cut)

This. All I could think of was the director working out the choreography of the fight (and the dry one earlier) instead of thinking about wet Sherlock (which, clue right there).

Edited January 2, 2017 by buttersister
I complain, therefore I am, but have always loved this show. This ep had great stuff, but having watched most of the others in the marathon, suffered by comparison.

[SimoneS]

I didn't enjoy this at all. I always felt like there was no investment in Mary except giving her that ridiculous spy background. Now she is gone just like that. 

I thought the woman holding the baby was the medical examiner who was in love with Sherlock? How does she have time to baby sit?

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, Molly babysitting Rosamond and widower-sitting John Watson "bothered" me ...  was she there in hope of "being there" exactly for that moment of talking to Sherlock?  did she have a preexisting personal relationship with Mr. and Mrs. Watson outside of Sherlock and various "cases" that they shared?  Making her (a qualified professional scientist/medical examiner) again a pathetic Sherlock-hanger-on/crush/shipper? 

The idea of Molly as a "second Mrs. Watson" -- or perhaps a romantic rival of the red-head -- pining for Sherlock ... too awful to contemplate.  Yes, imho, the redhead was/is a stalker and Watson should have been immediately been very suspicious 

Edited January 2, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[MisterGlass]

3 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

And he is easily replaced for long stretches with a balloon, a dog or in cases where Sherlock actually needs to talk something out, an international assassin.  Mycroft told John to take care of Sherlock last year on the plane, and John looked like he took that to heart.  But  that's all sidetracked for baby jokes

Which is incredibly sad.  I thought one of the great achievements of this series was making John Watson a real, valuable character - loyal, brave, irritable, adrenaline junkie.  And now they are resetting him to just another person in Sherlock's orbit.

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I wondered if Molly would "grow into" being a Norbury, being treated as a prop/go-fer.

Molly is in the same boat as Lestrade with the mediocre consolation that Sherlock remembers her name.  I would honestly like to see a non-Sherlock episode with these two characters to demonstrate that they are actually their own professionals when they are away from him.  Other shows have done Zeppo-style storylines and it worked out well.