S04.E01: The Six Thatchers

[seacliffsal]

I really enjoyed the character of Mary.  The wedding/best man's speech episode is my favorite outside of the pilot.  I loved that she was really non-judgmental.  Sherlock was Sherlock and she appreciated him for who he was; the colonel at the wedding was very unique, but she appreciated him for his relationship with John, etc.  I did not really buy her as a current assassin, but a retired one did work for me.  I was completely shocked that she died in this episode.  I will miss her character and her interactions with John and Sherlock.  

Like others, I noticed several plot holes in this episode.  I also feel like the characterizations of both Sherlock and John have changed a bit.

\

[Zahdii]

I came in late on the show.  What was the invisible driver prank?

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Sherlock: It's Your Density

Er, DESTINY. Either way, your favorite characters are suffering some pretty miserable fates. And this show is running out of ideas.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

4 minutes ago, Zahdii said:

I came in late on the show.  What was the invisible driver prank?

Can you watch it on PBS.com? It was the best part of the show, in my opinion.

[SVNBob]

11 hours ago, SimoneS said:

She should have been involved in solving the case, not babysitting.

What case?  The assassins were dead, and Vivian was in custody.  The case had been closed.

Unless you mean the posthumous case Mary gave Sherlock.  In which case, Molly was solving it.  She was actively giving comfort and assistance to a friend in grief, so that he could still be saved.

[Potanical Pardon]

Hmm. I just completed my first viewing and then rewatched all the John texting scenes.

I don't think he was cheating or had a sidepiece any more, which upon first viewing made me uncomfortable because it's kind-of OOC. I think the red-head lady on the bus scenes are all a flash-forward after Mary's death now. Where he stores her number is also in the future. The way its cut makes it seem like the night scene with Mary and crying Rosamund is him texting her, but the wording could also be Sherlock with insomnia and being contrarian with vampire vs night owl and the smiley face. We know he manic texts. I really think this is Sherlock actively trying to be a good friend and showing actual empathy to the point of being a pest. John blames him still, but as anyone lashing out of guilt or grief, there are times he's softening. Mary bringing crying Rosamund starts off similarly to another night time scene they had as if it was a continuation of that conversation. Mary's first words were the last words when the earlier scene happened. John could just be fantasizing that she's there and reliving that night and convo, and this is a scene in the future after her death where he's still distancing himself from Sherlock, but at least kind-of starting to respond to him again.

There's also that last bus scene where John's texting someone about how it's not a great idea whom we think is redhead lady, but then he gets off the bus and hits send, and she's right there, though we don't see any indication that she's receiving a text or John reacting a bit "Oh geez, I just..." John's text said: "This isn't a good idea. I'm not free. Things won't end well. It was nice to get to know you a little." That text could again be to Sherlock or Sherrinford or any one else. If it's Sherlock he's sending the message to, it could be related to why Mary's message came across more as saving John from an actual specific physical threat and a jab at Sherlock letting his guard down for a moment and reference to letting John know some revealing thing about him. Or it's to new guy, Sherrinford. Or it's to Mycroft who has him involved in something again. Or anyone else. Maybe John knows he's being followed or watched at that moment.

I think that we're meant to think that John is projecting his guilt of an affair onto Sherlock because of such emphasis on "You made a vow!" But maybe he's not a cheaty-cheat at all and it's a misdirect where he's simply just singling out Sherlock out of grief without baggage in the spirit of the source material if we're to believe that Mary's death is supposed to be Sherlock's fault.

(We also have the world's greatest detective who isn't Batman and one of the best spies ever, and that would really be sloppy and unbelievable if sneaky Watson was able to anything without either of these two noticing within this very episode.)

Edited January 4, 2017 by Potanical Pardon

[MisterGlass]

8 minutes ago, Potanical Pardon said:

I think the red-head lady on the bus scenes are all a flash-forward after Mary's death no. Where he stores her number is also in the future. The way its cut makes it seem like the night scene with Mary and crying Rosamund is him texting her, but the wording could also be Sherlock with insomnia and being contrarian with vampire vs night owl and the smiley face.

I don't see this as feasible, especially coupled with John's attempted confession to Mary just before her death.  And John doesn't have to ask if Sherlock is a night owl - he knows him too well for that question.

It would make more sense for John's character for him to have become interested in her after Mary's death, but sadly I don't think that is what happened here.

[Potanical Pardon]

11 minutes ago, MisterGlass said:

I don't see this as feasible, especially coupled with John's attempted confession to Mary just before her death.  And John doesn't have to ask if Sherlock is a night owl - he knows him too well for that question.

It would make more sense for John's character for him to have become interested in her after Mary's death, but sadly I don't think that is what happened here.

I still have the tab open and just checked the scene again. All he does is keep saying "Mary...Mary...Mary..." which the viewer is already conditioned to consider as an attempt at confession but it's inconclusive.

I thought about John already knowing that Sherlock is a night owl, but he could be texting it as just filler.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Potanical Pardon

[tessaforever]

13 minutes ago, Potanical Pardon said:

I still have the tab open and just checked the scene again. All he does is keep saying "Mary...Mary...Mary..." which the viewer is already conditioned to consider as an attempt at confession but it's inconclusive.

I thought about John already knowing that Sherlock is a night owl, but he could be texting it as just filler.

I think it's more about what he says right before the aquarium scene, when they're sitting on the couch and he guiltily says he has something to tell her...

I do agree that there's more to the bus lady than just a simple (or emotional) affair. Probably case-related. But I don't think it's in the future. 

[Potanical Pardon]

You're right; he does interrupt her to tell her something and they're cut off by Sherlock's text. I don't know. He does say "There's something I have to tell you," but that still reads within the context of reading the entire episode as him having an emotional affair or more as confessing, though could still be something else.

I checked the Sherlock Reddit, and am reminded that Watson has an estranged alcoholic sister, Harry, who could fit "long time no see", night owl vs vampire, "There's something I have to tell you," "It was nice to get to know you a little."

[Peace 47]

I agree with tessaforever, although I've been following discussion of the episode elsewhere, and plenty of people think something along the lines of what you do, Potanical Pardon, at least in terms of bus stop lady not being the person John was texting, so who knows. 

The weird thing about the texts is that John and bus stop lady never introduce themselves to each other (that we see).  She signs her note "E", and he says nothing.  Then later, at first (phone) contact, he apparently texts her one single word, "Hey."  He doesn't sign the text or ID himself.  I'm surprised she didn't respond "New phone.  Who dis?"

None of their subsequent texts to or from each other are signed, and so I guess it's not 100% clear that he is texting her, but no one else makes a lot of sense, given that John would not need to be asking Sherlock if he were a night owl.  Plus, John pulls out E's note and gives it a long stare before the first text.  I think he was texting her.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Peace 47

[Starscream]

3 hours ago, Potanical Pardon said:

Hmm. I just completed my first viewing and then rewatched all the John texting scenes.

I don't think he was cheating or had a sidepiece any more, which upon first viewing made me uncomfortable because it's kind-of OOC. I think the red-head lady on the bus scenes are all a flash-forward after Mary's death now. Where he stores her number is also in the future.

The only problem with this is that we were shown that he was thinking about her while they were all on the plane.

[Miles]

On 3.1.2017 at 4:26 AM, sjankis630 said:

I kept wondering after the first reveal in the car incident, "how skinny do you have to be in order to not be noticed in a car seat as not the seat?"

They must have not really paid much attention to the car that week. It is also interesting that noone noticed the empty car the next day - even though it was the son's car - and thought that the seat looked funny/different.

It was dark when the father looked in and afterwards nobody had any reason to examine the car. 

But this one still irks me. Sherlock just concludes, without any evidence, that the boy must have had a seizure and died and nobody even challenges it. That whole thing seems highly improbable. The guy was a healthy young man, healthy enough to travel around the globe. Why would he suddenly get seizures? Plus seizures usually present with convulsions, so he would have thrown the costume off.

They could have at least said that he had a history of a blood clotting disorder and that the long flight caused an embolism, which killed him. That would have made at least some sense.

I'm not sure if this is just bad writing or if it's another thing Sherlock overlooked in his fixation on Moriarty and the young man was actually murdered. I guess we'll see.

[festivus]

Man, I really don't want John to have been cheating. When I first watched I was thinking maybe this woman is involved with John's sister Harry who he seems to be estranged from. Then I was thinking that maybe she is someone from Mary's family, a sister or something. I'll have to see what I think when I watch it again.  Sorry if any of this sounds dumb but I don't go to any other board for discussion but this one and I don't read spoilers so this all comes from my own head.

[Kostgard]

5 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

I agree with tessaforever, although I've been following discussion of the episode elsewhere, and plenty of people think something along the lines of what you do, Potanical Pardon, at least in terms of bus stop lady not being the person John was texting, so who knows. 

The weird thing about the texts is that John and bus stop lady never introduce themselves to each other (that we see).  She signs her note "E", and he says nothing.  Then later, at first (phone) contact, he apparently texts her one single word, "Hey."  He doesn't sign the text or ID himself.  I'm surprised she didn't respond "New phone.  Who dis?"

None of their subsequent texts to or from each other are signed, and so I guess it's not 100% clear that he is texting her, but no one else makes a lot of sense, given that John would not need to be asking Sherlock if he were a night owl.  Plus, John pulls out E's note and gives it a long stare before the first text.  I think he was texting her.

That's what I believe as well. We see him take out the note she wrote, we see him enter the phone number from the note into his phone, and then he sends the "Hey" text. True, he didn't sign it, but unless she was handing out her number to every man she ran across that day, I think she could easily guess the text was from the man on the bus to whom she gave her number, and they just went on from there.

While I think it is certainly possible (or even probable) that there is more to this than it seems or it simply is not what it seems, I do think he was texting her, and regardless of the nature of their relationship, it appears he was keeping it from Mary (and that's what he was about to confess - probably prompted by Mary telling him that he had been so "perfect" in their relationship. He felt guilty because he was keeping secrets too. We just don't know for sure the nature of that secret). I don't think she is related to Mary or someone connected to Harry. The way she introduced herself was just too straight up flirtatious for that. It would be strange for her to act like that, then be all, "Oh, hey. I think I'm your sister-in-law" or "I'm Harry's girlfriend. I think you should call her." There's definitely something there we don't know about, but I don't think that is it.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Kostgard

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, I think she's more likely a "Moriarty proxy" or someone involved in perpetuating a new Moriarty "miss me" hoax  ... the whole "unreliable narrator" (or narration) is only amusing as long as it's a surprise or a worthwhile puzzle ... Gatiss and Moffatt are already very close (or well passed) the "nobody likes a smart-ass" mile marker. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[MisterGlass]

4 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

... the whole "unreliable narrator" (or narration) is only amusing as long as it's a surprise or a worthwhile puzzle ...

It would really be a double misdirect if John isn't contacting E.  The first misdirect was cutting the first version of the bus scene before she handed over her number, and cutting the scene between John and Mary before the texts.  I don't put Inception levels of unreliable narration past this show - really, the Abominable Bride was built around it - but it would weary me in this context.

I'd forgotten about Harry.  I wouldn't mind a Watson family reunion.  We've seen the full Holmes clan (unless there does turn out to be a surprise manor dwelling third brother).

[LennieBriscoe]

lordonia, Starchild, Eliza422, et al.:

Again, the series is a cheeky  riff on the original ("The Sign of Three" only, Sherlock?), this time "The Adventure of the Six Napoleons." 

First, Margaret Thatcher as the ill-fated "Little Emperor." Haha!

Second, Sherlock's scoffing at the case of the missing Borgia black pearl----exactly what was hidden in the original story.

Finally, if there is an example of this trope published before 1904, I'd like to read it!

(Did anybody else think the child-minder at the end looked like the bus ginger made plain? P.S. Poirot's sidekick Capt. Hastings had a "thing" for redheads; another allusion/homage?)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventure_of_the_Six_Napoleons

Edited January 5, 2017 by LennieBriscoe

[Pattycake2]

Could he have been texting Janine?  And looking at E's note was just making him think of odd relationships?  John did know her for just a little and

Spoiler

Janine is clearly seen in the upcoming preview.

[hjmugillecuty]

The child minder at the end was Molly, @LennieBriscoe.

[ohjoy]

16 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

It would really be a double misdirect if John isn't contacting E.  The first misdirect was cutting the first version of the bus scene before she handed over her number, and cutting the scene between John and Mary before the texts.  I don't put Inception levels of unreliable narration past this show - really, the Abominable Bride was built around it - but it would weary me in this context.

I'd forgotten about Harry.  I wouldn't mind a Watson family reunion.  We've seen the full Holmes clan (unless there does turn out to be a surprise manor dwelling third brother).

The more I think about it, a potential Watson family reunion might really make sense in a way that (sort of) absolves John of the cheating implications and provides a more permanent home for his child while he continues to go gallivanting around with Sherlock solving crimes and getting into dangerous situations. (At least, I can totally see Moffatt/Gatiss coming up with that idea as a solution to "there are too many people in the way of the Sherlock/Watson focus".)

[Starchild]

14 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

the bus ginger

Hm, I wonder if she will figure in a "red-headed league" in the next episode.

[darkestboy]

That was kind of shite to be honest.

Mary's death, fair enough it had to happen and her past was always going to catch up with her but it was so anticlimactic, minus that recorded message at the end. I'll miss the character tbh.

The main plot wasn't really that engaging and we've now got Sherlock and Watson at odds with each other, which ain't good.

I guess the other Holmes brother will be the real big bad this series, 6/10

[Chaos Theory]

The more I think about it and I know she is a minor character but the more I think about it, Mary's death makes me want to drop the show.

there I said it.

whether I will or not....

[Peace 47]

I don't really have any deep abiding love for the character of Mary, in that to me, her character has been all over the place in a way that is deeply frustrating and not reconcilable across episodes, no matter how charming Amanda Abbington can be in this role.  She was introduced in S3 as a spunky nurse, then revealed to be a secret assassin who was not a nice person.  She told John in "His Last Vow" that if he read the flash drive, she was sure that he would no longer love her, and so in that episode, we were made to believe she had done truly unforgivable things (because John Watson can forgive a lot, as we've seen).  

She shot and nearly killed Sherlock when all he did was say that he could help her (why shoot him and never go after Magnussen again for her blackmail material--seemed fishy at the time), then looked unhappy when John told her that Sherlock survived the shooting, then threatened Sherlock in the hospital while he was only semi-conscious, then started to draw a gun on him at the empty houses to keep him from talking, then threatened him one last time there, etc.

All of these things made me think she was "a bad guy" going into this season, even though both Sherlock and John forgave her.  (You're just always thinking long games with this show, you know?)  I was apparently completely wrong about Mary, and I'll cop to the fact that not believing the forgiveness was a mistake.  In this episode, none of those past bad actions meant anything, and she was essentially a very good person again, who helped out with cases cheerfully, who refused to drag her family into her messy past and tried to handle it herself, who saved John from getting sniper'd in Morocco, and who even took a bullet in the exact same place as where she shot Sherlock to cancel out quite nicely her prior shot.  (She was also this likable in the special last year, too, but there, she was mostly a mind palace creation.)  I'd feel like a bit of a jerk not liking this version of Mary, but insert Oprah gif here of "What is the truth?"  I have whiplash on this character.

It's kind of funny to me that they took the least possibly popular path with her, though:  there are those who have loved her through it all and wanted her to be a permanent fixture, and those who didn't trust her and wanted her to be an exciting villain like Moriarty, and so instead, they gave us a completely redeemed character who was promptly killed off--worst of all worlds.

I follow other discussions of people's show theories at other sites, and some are convinced that this episode is some kind of story that Sherlock is telling (because the episode starts with a Sherlock narration, which has never happened, and when the episode started with a John narration, it was a dream), or mind palace thing, or something is off.  I'm still worried that the audience is wanting the show to be more clever than it actually is.  I'd love to see some of these theories explain the wonkiness, but I don't trust the writers that much (yet).

[festivus]

So this episode seemed so weird to me that I actually branched out from here and went to Reddit. Which made me see how many things I did not pick up on when watching the episode the first time. So now I'm going to go watch it again and also I think I'm not going to post my dumb theories anymore because I am not clever, not at all. I'll just wait and see what unfolds as all the episodes air. (and hope that John didn't really cheat)

[festivus]

I just finished watching again and still so weird. I swear I think we're still in Sherlock's head for most of it, that church especially seemed like Sherlock's mind palace. I also now wonder if Sherrinford is a place and not a person based on Mycroft's phone call. That someone important to the past is there but the name is a place. Maybe not a brother but a sister. The "It's never twins" came up again in this episode. I still can't figure out the John and that lady on the bus texting thing. I'm still hoping that it's not John cheating. As Sherlock would say, boring. As I say, cheating is boring. So I said I wouldn't post my dumb theories anymore. Sorry.

[TaurusRose]

On 1/2/2017 at 1:18 AM, NorthstarATL said:

There is nothing cuter or more shippable than two men and a baby.

Just kill me now.  This is not why I watch Sherlock.

[SharonH58]

What I dislike most about this episode after reading articles other places was how 'clever' the writer thought he was throwing a lot of Holmes stuff in from the books.  How about writing a good episode and stop wasting time being clever?  I didn't like this episode any more after the second viewing.  How convenient that the place Sherlock goes to solve a suspicious death he would fixate on some dumb missing statue, and that would lead to Mary's backstory.  Then Sherlock acted weird the whole episode, unSherlock like.  I won't even go into cheating John.  Or that now he is mad at Sherlock.  And how stupid that a new mother is going to jump in front of a bullet.  I think the only part I liked was Sherlock lecturing the baby on throwing the rattle.  But I don't want to see them try to juggle cases and a baby, if they ever get there since right now John is pouting and we only have 2 more episodes.  More I think on it, and after reading how both Benedict and Martin have made statements of 'an end of a era, and liking things to end'  that I would be okay if this is the last season of Sherlock.   I stated somewhere else that I wouldn't mind them rebooting and recasting the two main leads.  The ones they have seem too busy now to want to move on to other things.  IMO

[jeansheridan]

I think my issue was the lack of Sherlock and John scenes.  They were hardly interacting in this episode. I missed their chemistry and warmth.  In The Bride it was there in spades.  Freeman seemed bored too during most of the ep.

That said, I loved his choice to groan when Mary died.  Fuck Twitter.  That's a real sound of profound grief.  Of the shock of it.  People who laughed have not been with someone experiencing grief.  Not all people react that way but it was a good choice for a middle aged soldier.   

[jeansheridan]

I don't mind Sherlock changing his behavior over four seasons. He killed for Mary.  He admired and loved her.  And he loves John. They have changed him and so his behavior changes.  Plus he was tweaking a bit at first.  He overdosed on the plane.  I assume we are meant to remember The Abominable' Bride.  At least the modern bits.

Did anyone think the redhead was a man in drag? Moriarty specifically. 

[Sharon]

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 10:10 AM, PaulaO said:

The red headed bus woman looked exactly like Mary, especially her mouth.  I figured it was Mary in disguise, trying to lure John into an affair, then pulling off her wig and saying "aha, I knew you could be seduced."  Or it was a "game" between John and Mary to put some spice back in their marriage after the baby.

I'm done with the AGRA story and hope Gattis has put it to rest, along with "miss me?"  Moriarty has grown stale.

I thought so too. Or maybe it's Mary who has the twin....

[lucindabelle]

"She seems... fully functional"

 

ok that made me laugh out loud. Though that any did

go from birth to sitting up and throwing things VERY fast.

glad to know boxing Sherlock is canon because it just feels wrong. Where does our Sherlock train? Go to the gym? He just seems way too cerebral. 

I found the show overall too long- and I HAPPILY sit through two hour shows. This felt long because it felt padded. And confusing. Somehow I missed three whole "Agra sticks in the bust" explanation. Just missed it. 

Mary going around the world was particularly bad. Anyone else think it looked like she was sitting next to John on the plane?

the red headed woman was smiling at John because he forgot he was wearing a daisy. Simple as that. I for one will be disappointed if it's anything else. Seems like the late night texting had happened before. I'm going to assume that's all it was but still it seemed not like him and unprompted.

REALLY disappointed Sherlock (and writers) went down the "cats so loser lady" route as a CLUE. So stereotyped and insulting. My 15 year old niece has 2 kittens. Is she a spinster now? Seriously. Yuck. More than a little sexist too with the divorcees find love again widows "fill the void." (Yes I know one could say it's Sherlock being sexist but it feels like a dumb trope to me)

i too hated the whole Mary is an assassin thing so much I'd  blocked it out.

i enjoyed a lot of this but felt weary by the end and didn't feel the need to rewatch. Ultimately rather disappointing.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Cast reactions to Mary's death:

Mark Gatiss/behind the scenes of shooting the baby christening:

[Fireball]

I just watched this episode last night. I thought about watching it the Sunday when it first aired, but I really didn't want to stay up until 11:00pm! After watching the episode I'm glad I choose sleep over staying up!

I found the episode all over the place and at times hard to fallow. We kept jumping from one case to the next and I never really got invested in any of them; half the time I didn't catch the solution.  I'm not a Mary fan (the whole super-spy assassin thing didn't work for me) so the fact that the episode was very Mary focused didn't appeal to me. I'm not sad that Mary was killed off, but I dislike how they killed her off. I wish they had killed her off in her fight scene with Ajay. I have no interest in watching another season of John being mad at Sherlock.

Speaking of John what the heck show? An affair? This is completely out of character. Actually I thought everyone was acting a bit odd. Sherlock now is addicted to texting? (Was I suppose to be catching what he was texting?) Mary likes Sherlock? I thought she disliked him?

Also there was so much filler when Sherlock was fighting Ajay it took forever, and while I love dogs the scenes with Toby really didn't add much.

The episode really didn't leave me excited for this season.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Fireball

[Fireball]

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 10:15 PM, Charlesman said:

Exactly! With two years to come up with three ideas, is it that hard to devise a clever mystery? There's no more of the smart playfulness that was A Study in Pink and the rest of the first season. 

I agree! Two years to write something and this is the best they could come up with? I'm disappointed. Maybe I should watch Elementary these days instead.

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 11:00 PM, Kostgard said:

Oh, his show confounds and disappoints me. The cast is still great, the look is still great, but they just don't know what to do with it. I would say they should bring in fresh blood to the writing team, but I suspect there is some truth to this being the last season, and they might as well just let it go. 

I've always been torn on Mary as a character. I enjoyed AA's performance. The idea of a secret agent/assassin trying (and failing) to have a normal life is an interesting one, but it never quite gelled for me, and I think adding a third character like this threw off the dynamic in a way I didn't enjoy. So I'm sad to see her go...yet I'm not. Not really. But I'm not rejoicing because her death won't fix what I feel the show has lost and dammit, her death was effing stupid..

I think that's why I never warmed to Mary. Like you said adding her threw off the dynamic in a way I didn't enjoy. Now I'm not saying I just want to watch John and Sherlock all the time, but I'm not exactly going to miss Mary.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Fireball
spelling

[John Potts]

On ‎07‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 6:27 PM, SharonH58 said:

What I dislike most about this episode after reading articles other places was how 'clever' the writer thought he was throwing a lot of Holmes stuff in from the books.  How about writing a good episode and stop wasting time being clever?

Ditto. I feel the same way I do about the Dr Who Christmas specials - going past the hour allows the writer to indulge himself without adding anything to the plot - for example, watching Mary running away for five minutes added nothing to the plot, though it certainly increased the running time.

As for the story, I immediately recognised The Six Napoleons storyline, but I did wonder WHY a group of mercenaries/assassins would be carrying around with them: if you have explosive information you don't want getting out a) DON'T make multiple copies and b) DON'T take it into a warzone. I'd make a better spy than them - well except for the fact that I have almost no skills in that line! Though I did feel killing her off was a bit unnecessary - if they didn't want her in future Seasons (possibly for real world awkwardness with her now ex-husband), they could just leave her at home to tend the baby and we only hear about her via texts. That said, I didn't mind John disowning Sherlock at the end of the episode - it wasn't fair, but it was pretty human to blame him for Mary's death.

[SharonH58]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4080726/CHRISTOPHER-STEVENS-Sherlock-s-clever-clever-s-stupid.html

 

my feelings

[Kel Varnsen]

On 04/01/2017 at 2:34 PM, Miles said:

They could have at least said that he had a history of a blood clotting disorder and that the long flight caused an embolism, which killed him. That would have made at least some sense.

The obvious cause of death was that the kid was poisoned from breathing in the fumes from all the explosive chemicals being stored in his car. Seriously what the hell was up with that explosion, the car just got rear ended?

[Miles]

On 4.1.2017 at 8:34 PM, Miles said:

I'm not sure if this is just bad writing or if it's another thing Sherlock overlooked in his fixation on Moriarty and the young man was actually murdered. I guess we'll see.

Now we know. It was bad writing!

[IWantCandy71]

Honestly, this show was always written badly. The actors (SOME of them-Mark, Benedict, Rupert) are worth watching for. But the plotting and writing has always been full of holes and basically sloppy. Starting with the very first episode, if I'm being blunt. I think most of us were so sucked in by the chemistry with the cast and their charm, that we overlooked it. I know I did, at least for the first series. I will say I noticed immediately with the second series, and their ridiculous resolution of the first series cliffhanger, that the show was indeed kind of slapped together and covered with a lot of glitter and gloss in an effort to distract from the weak writing. I pretty much FFWd through all of series three except for the Sherlock/Mycroft stuff. I never watched TAB, and I still have not even bothered to Netflix series four. That says it all for me. It really IS/WAS bad writing. And no amount of Gatiss smarting off with "go and read a children's book" is going to change that.

[Winter Rose]

Oddly I was never bothered by the resolution to the S1 cliffhanger. Yeah it was silly, and a bit anti-climatic, but it didn't rewrite history and technically that ringtone had a purpose, so I was alright to roll with it. I get the sense that these writers can excel in the short term but things will fall apart the longer they're asked to write. For me, it was with TEH that they gave up any semblance of a plot and were only about the flashy moments. But when there's no coherent story to follow, a plot twist isn't even a twist anymore, it's just another random moment.

Maybe it would've helped if the writer who wrote the cliffhanger was also the one to answer it. Mark should've answered the S1 cliffhanger because he wrote TGG, Steve Thompson should've answered how Sherlock survived the fall because he wrote TRF, and Moffat should've given us Mary's background because he wrote HLV. (Then again, TAB just seemed to be a competition of who could out plot twist the other.)

I never thought Mary was getting a villain reveal, or that even if she was, she wouldn't be Moran. They make a lot of ACD references at once, to single out when it's to Moran sounded like cherry picking to me. That said, I don't think the writers had a clear direction for Mary either. I think they got caught up in "wouldn't it be 'cool' if she was an assassin?!" but had no idea how to fill out her background. For what this episode gave us, I didn't think it matched the urgent need she'd had to kill Magnussen for knowing about her. An ex-assassin IMO was no worse a profession than the shady business that most of the other characters get up to. It also begs the question about Mycroft, since it happens that he knew about AGRA, why in S3 he took no measures to see that Sherlock was safe, or at least warn him that Mary had a past.

[IWantCandy71]

The biggest problem with the series one cliffhanger ? They wrote themselves into a corner because they weren't sure they'd get a second series. It's a lousy excuse-I think the inclination should be to both give some resolutions and open up other questions, if you're not sure you're getting renewed. But don't put the characters in an impossible situation and resolve by having the main villain just decide he didn't feel like killing them right then. Especially after strapping a bomb to one of them. It was just an ungood resolution, to put it mildly. I'm not sure having the same writer who wrote the cliffhanger, answer the cliffhanger, would have changed a thing. I don't think Gatiss had a clue how he was going to get them out of it, when he wrote that ending. And you just don't DO that, if you want to be taken seriously as a show runner. Once you film it, you better have at least ONE good, plausible way of getting your chaaracters out of their mess. And both Gatiss and Moffat stated in print that at the time they filmed TGG, they did not have that.

My frustrations with this show reminds me of Annie Wilkes in "Misery", talking about that old movie serial she watched-where the hero would go over a cliff at the end of the show. Then next week, they show him jumping out of the car before it careened over the cliff. To quote Annie "he didn't get out of the cockadoody CAR !!"

Edited November 10, 2017 by IWantCandy71

[rereader2]

Well, TGG ended with a stalemate--there were snipers with their guns aimed at our heroes' heads, and Sherlock with his gun aimed at a load of explosives that could take out the building (or at least Moriarty). Short of ending the series there and then in a blaze of glory, the only possible resolution was that they both stood down; the only question was how to get there. A snit into a cell phone is as good a way as any, and funnier than most.

Edited November 11, 2017 by rereader2

[Peace 47]

I saw the Sherlock forum pop to the top of my followed forums list, and that reminded me that it’s been a year since this stinker of an episode aired.  Happy New Year to all embittered Sherlock fans!  A year on, it still mildly irritates me that they broke so many “rules” of their universe in this episode.  Like painstakingly describing the effects of being shot in S3’s HLV (and how it’s “not like the movies”), then giving us in this episode everything that they said doesn’t happen, especially when Mary was shot in pretty much the same location, from the same distance (e.g., how much useful consciousness you have, how you lose blood, etc.).  Or just motifs that they dropped, like Mycroft telling John on the plane to look out for Sherlock, and then John doing nothing of the sort in this episode.

I never like Martin Freeman’s styling in S4, and I read a report a few months back from someone who attended one of these conventions.  The hair stylist on the show said that Martin Freeman had that look for another job, really liked it, and so insisted it be used for this season (even though the in-show time was essentially days since S3).  Then he had second thoughts about it during shooting, but they had to go with it.

His hair was the least of John Watson’s problems in S4, though.  I can’t believe they crafted this elaborate backstory for Mary in this episode and never explored anything about John’s past beyond the hints previously dropped. 

 

On 11/7/2017 at 2:03 PM, Winter Rose said:

Mark should've answered the S1 cliffhanger because he wrote TGG, Steve Thompson should've answered how Sherlock survived the fall because he wrote TRF, and Moffat should've given us Mary's background because he wrote HLV

Moffat actually wrote the scene at the pool as an audition piece for their Moriarty candidates, and then he decided that it was too good of an exchange not to work into an episode, so in a way, he did get to finish what he started.  But I don’t think that has ever been his particular strong suit. 

[Winter Rose]

Even so, I already said I hold the unpopular opinion of not minding the resolution to the S1 cliffhanger, in part because it was a stepping stone to TRF where Staying Alive did come up again, and I don't think it tried to invalidate what came before. But generally speaking, I think writers in the best position to resolve cliffhangers are the ones who wrote them. That doesn't mean they do, just that chances are better.

I've wondered if the absence of a third writer with TAB and S4 (even S3, while Thompson wrote part of TSoT, it was still minimal input) also allowed some of Moffat and Gatiss' poorer writing habits to come out. HLV, for example, is one I enjoy as an episode but it makes a mess of the overarching plot... with a further mess made here in TST.

Apparently at the US Sherlocked Con it was said that TST was intended to be structurally different. I think more elaborate transitions and told out of order but pretty late in the process of making this episode, they decided it wouldn't work, so it might've affected what became the final broadcast. A detailed account of it can be found here: http://fffinnagain.tumblr.com/post/174328502023/rachel-talalay-and-the-case-of-the-missing

It's hard to say if these transitions would've made TST a better episode, it sounds like they were always going for something needlessly complicated. But maybe it might've felt less... off if what aired was the episode they set out to make.

[Driad]

This episode is scheduled to air Sunday evening (August 5) on my PBS station and possibly others.

[voiceover]

After admitting I haven't watched since Season One...

I tuned in tonight and there was this...thing...I don't remember from before.

A woman was narrating the scene directions, as the story unfolded.

So, is this showy piece of meta-weirdness, just business as usual?  Or did I hit some secret button on my remote, like some kind of verbal close-caption?

 

eta: Soooo...apparently it's my remote's fault, or more precisely, my fault for doing...something...that activated a v.o. for the blind.

Wow.  What other series would make one suppose that a technical goof was a showrunner stunt???

Edited August 6, 2018 by voiceover
Because I am a techno-loser

[JudyObscure]

I'd go with "secret button on your remote,"  @Voiceover (name irony alert).  There's a type of closed caption for the visually impaired that does the "he's walking across the room" bit.  Now I'll feel foolish if someone says everyone heard it but me.  I only watched the first hour because I was just too tired to follow all the manic activity.  I much prefer the style of "Endeavor."

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I'd go with "secret button on your remote,"  @Voiceover (name irony alert).  There's a type of closed caption for the visually impaired that does the "he's walking across the room" bit.  Now I'll feel foolish if someone says everyone heard it but me.  I only watched the first hour because I was just too tired to follow all the manic activity.  I much prefer the style of "Endeavor."

I did this on another show that the critics were raving about, and I couldn't figure out why anyone liked it, it was so deadpan and intrusive. That was on Netflix, I think, so it was a setting in the captioning selection.