S01.E10: The Capture of Benedict Arnold

[Cranberry]

A stunning turn during the American Revolution prompts Lucy, Wyatt, and Rufus to question whether they've been fighting on the wrong side this whole time. While Agent Christopher prepares for the worst back in present day, the team encounters the Father of the Country, makes a dubious pact, and confronts the possibility they may not be a trio for long.

[Driad]

By 1700s standards, doesn't Lucy's short unkempt hair make her look like a slattern? There is more to fitting in than wearing the right clothing.

[ketose]

8 hours ago, Driad said:

By 1700s standards, doesn't Lucy's short unkempt hair make her look like a slattern? There is more to fitting in than wearing the right clothing.

She probably should have been wearing one of those gross powdered wigs.

[legaleagle53]

1 minute ago, ketose said:

She probably should have been wearing one of those gross powdered wigs.

Those were really only worn on special occasions when full dress was required.  And women never wore them -- instead, they powdered their natural hair and added extensions.

[The Wild Sow]

Oh, what a pity they didn't get Christopher Knight to play Arnold! ;-)

[Shanna Marie]

I do think that while Lucy looks amazing in retro attire (earlier in the 20th century), she doesn't work nearly as well in historical attire. Possibly because they go all-out with the 20th century stuff, with clothes, hair, and makeup according to period, but when it comes to the earlier settings, they just stick her in a costume and don't finish out the look.

It's kind of a pity that they killed Rittenhouse, since I'd have loved to have Armin Shimerman as an ongoing Big Bad, though I guess there's a chance that the kid could grow up to be exactly like his dad. What do you bet that they find out that the real Rittenhouse who caused all the problems was the kid, not the father? Though it does seem like the organization already existed.

[legaleagle53]

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I do think that while Lucy looks amazing in retro attire (earlier in the 20th century), she doesn't work nearly as well in historical attire. Possibly because they go all-out with the 20th century stuff, with clothes, hair, and makeup according to period, but when it comes to the earlier settings, they just stick her in a costume and don't finish out the look.

It's kind of a pity that they killed Rittenhouse, since I'd have loved to have Armin Shimerman as an ongoing Big Bad, though I guess there's a chance that the kid could grow up to be exactly like his dad. What do you bet that they find out that the real Rittenhouse who caused all the problems was the kid, not the father? Though it does seem like the organization already existed.

It did.  They went to 1780 tonight, right?  Yet Rittenhouse had actually been founded in 1778, so it had already existed for two years.

[The Wild Sow]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

What do you bet that they find out that the real Rittenhouse who caused all the problems was the kid, not the father?

Pretty much guessing that's the way it's going to go.

David Rittenhouse (clockmaker, astronomer, philosopher, etc....) was a real guy.  He left 2 daughters; no surviving sons.

ETA:  Oh, OK.....now I get it.....the BAD Rittenhouse is John, not David.  And he managed to erase his own very existence from the all historical records, the better to hide his nefarious fingers in the pie from future historians......like Lucy.  And, you know....us!

Yeah, that's the ticket!

Edited December 13, 2016 by The Wild Sow

[benteen]

Excellent episode.  Well-done and tense.

It's too bad Rittenhouse was killed off so soon but ARmin Shimerman made the most of his role.  The guy playing Arnold was really good too. 

Lucy, Wyatt and Rufus again prove they are the worst time travelers.  I get that destroying Rittenhouse in the past might be the best way but that would likely unravel history in unforeseen and possibly catastrophic ways.  Killing Cornwallis alone should cause some serious ramifications.  Arnold didn't really do anything of note after he went to England so that won't have much affect on the timeline.

Strong episode for GV.  Flynn is completely out of control.

They did state earlier that Rittenhouse was formed in 1778 but this was 1780.

[DearEvette]

For the first time all season, I think this one felt like it has the real possibility to cause serious consequences.  They really effed up the past.  They killed (or caused to be killed) two major historical figures and of course Rittenhouse.  It really felt like the stakes were high in this one and I got a sense of urgency and tension that I hadn't felt in any of the previous eps. Also this is the first epi where they haven;t come back to the present so we haven't yet seen what the effects of what they have done are.

I loved the open with Agent Christopher and Lucy at her house and her finally, finally, realizing that her present life with could be impacted by their past actions.  Great scene.  Also an interesting follow up scene between Rufus and Mason.  It has been a bit unrealistic of those two (Mason and Agent Christopher) to be so unaffected by what they know they are doing.

[Driad]

Long ago I read a story with a title something like "The assassination of General Washington." I won't spoil whether it was successful in the story but the method was quite clever.  I have not been able to find this story again. Does it ring any bells?

[Maverick]

 I was expecting them to go back to the present and discover they royally fucked up and made things ten times worse....and that none of them ever existed.  I was disappointed we didn't get a glimpse of the altered present and thought Flynn kidnapping Lucy was a lackluster cliffhanger.

[KaveDweller]

24 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

For the first time all season, I think this one felt like it has the real possibility to cause serious consequences.  They really effed up the past.  They killed (or caused to be killed) two major historical figures and of course Rittenhouse.  It really felt like the stakes were high in this one and I got a sense of urgency and tension that I hadn't felt in any of the previous eps. Also this is the first epi where they haven;t come back to the present so we haven't yet seen what the effects of what they have done are.

I loved the open with Agent Christopher and Lucy at her house and her finally, finally, realizing that her present life with could be impacted by their past actions.  Great scene.  Also an interesting follow up scene between Rufus and Mason.  It has been a bit unrealistic of those two (Mason and Agent Christopher) to be so unaffected by what they know they are doing.

Yeah, Conrwallis is going to have a big impact. So is Arnold, even though he died after his original betrayal. But the earlier in history they go, the bigger an impact things have. And the Revolutionary War was obviously a defining moment for the country.

I liked the opening too.

27 minutes ago, benteen said:

Lucy, Wyatt and Rufus again prove they are the worst time travelers.  I get that destroying Rittenhouse in the past might be the best way but that would likely unravel history in unforeseen and possibly catastrophic ways.  Killing Cornwallis alone should cause some serious ramifications.  Arnold didn't really do anything of note after he went to England so that won't have much affect on the timeline.

Well they are supposed to be stopping Flynn, and killing Rittenhouse may have been the right way to do it. They obviously are not capable of actually killing him or capturing him. 

3 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 I was expecting them to go back to the present and discover they royally fucked up and made things ten times worse....and that none of them ever existed.  I was disappointed we didn't get a glimpse of the altered present and thought Flynn kidnapping Lucy was a lackluster cliffhanger.

I was expecting them to get back to the present and land in an empty warehouse because if Rittenhouse never existed they couldn't have funded Mason and he couldn't have built the time machine.

[memememe76]

I have such affection for these characters. I like how they totally failed at preserving the history. I am looking forward to seeing the aftereffects. I Suspects that USB will come in handy. Pass me the tissues.

[MzLiz]

Holy Crap!! That's was some episode. My goodness. An alliance with Flynn? a real bad idea...I could have told them that would not end well. And why did Flynn take Lucy? I was scared for her. 

For a minute I thought David Rittenhouse was Ben Franklin..

34 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

For the first time all season, I think this one felt like it has the real possibility to cause serious consequences.  They really effed up the past.  They killed (or caused to be killed) two major historical figures and of course Rittenhouse.  It really felt like the stakes were high in this one and I got a sense of urgency and tension that I hadn't felt in any of the previous eps

No Kidding!! Corwallis...Benedict Arnold...That some major changes to history. 

What if today's "Rittenhouse" is formed by the little boy simply because Flynn came in killed his father and tried to kill him? What if Flynn created exactly what he was trying to eradicate. And really, I think Flynn's being terribly naive (or flat out insane). His sledgehammer approach makes me think it's impossible to make the pin point change that will simply make his wife alive again (married to him/with the same child, etc). More likely erase out of existance or completely unaware of who he is. I mean, I honestly don't see how they'd really ever get Lucy's sister back. I don't see how they can go back and create the exact dots that need to connect for that to happen.

11 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 I was expecting them to go back to the present and discover they royally fucked up and made things ten times worse....and that none of them ever existed.

What if the lifeboat goes back and it's no longer Mason industries but a corn field or inside the Macy's at the mall or whatever. As far as none ever existed, I think that's a real possibility next episode if only for Lucy. Her Dad is a big Rittenhouse guy and if Rittenhouse potentially doesn't exist anymore (or exists in a different fashion) will (all) her ancestors follow the exact same path?

3 minutes ago, memememe76 said:

I have such affection for these characters. I like how they totally failed at preserving the history. I am looking forward to seeing the aftereffects. I Suspects that USB will come in handy. Pass me the tissues.

Ditto!! Seriously I love this show. I especially love Wyatt/Lucy/Rufus and their partnership/connection/friendship.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

So how many weeks are we waiting for the next episode?

There needs to be some major consequences to what happened during this episode, and Flynn kidnapping Lucy, or the 'cliffhanger' will have been woefully misused.

Part of me wonders if Rittenhouse won't be even worse now, after the events/history/new future changed with killing 'Father' Rittenhouse and threatening to kill the kid.  And has been mentioned, with the premature deaths of Cornwallis and Arnold, those will have major impacts on the new timeline.

Maybe when Wyatt & Rufus get back to the present, Mason Industries will be under Rittenhouse control, due to the timeline changes, as they are now more involved in their 'investment'.  Mason will be gone and there will be a Rittenhouse-r running the show, possibly?

[henripootel]

18 minutes ago, memememe76 said:

 I Suspects that USB will come in handy. Pass me the tissues.

I also found it moving - kudos to Sakina Jaffrey.  My question is this though: why would you want such information?  If my kid disappeared and I never even knew she existed, I'm not sure I'd want to be reminded of it, to say nothing of 'in great detail'.  Sometimes you're happy not knowing, heck, never knowing.  There's nothing you can do so why dwell on the lives of 'possible children' from another timeline that you can't ever 'get back' so to speak. 

7 minutes ago, MzLiz said:

What if the lifeboat goes back and it's no longer Mason industries but a corn field or inside the Macy's at the mall or whatever.

A very real possibility.  Mason industries should have taken steps to keep this from happening, but it's too late now.  

Wow, they really killed Cornwallis.  That's gonna leave a mark. And they didn't need to kill the Rittenhouse kid, just bring him back with you to 2016 and put him into the foster program.  Nobody's gonna believe his tale of being born in 1760s, and he'll grow up and get a job and a girlfriend.  Better than a bullet, if you're squeamish.  

Edited December 13, 2016 by henripootel

[LittleIggy]

Is the real historic Rittenhouse the one Rittenhouse Square in Philly is name after?

I was glad to see a lot of Flynn in this episode and not have to boo him all the time!

[MzLiz]

11 minutes ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

So how many weeks are we waiting for the next episode?

Jan 16th. A looong time.....

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

8 minutes ago, MzLiz said:

Jan 16th. A looong time.....

5 weeks, that's actually not really that bad.  I've waited at least 2 months between fall finales and winter (or is it spring?) premieres before.

If only my 3-month future self owned a time machine and brought back the rest of first season's episodes to current me to watch...  lol

Edited December 13, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Moose135]

11 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

Is the real historic Rittenhouse the one Rittenhouse Square in Philly is name after?

Yes it is.

1 minute ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

5 weeks, that's actually not really that bad.  I've waited at least 2 months between fall finales and winter (or is it spring?) premieres before.

And compared to some of those series on TNT or USA, that's right around the corner.

[henripootel]

12 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

I was glad to see a lot of Flynn in this episode and not have to boo him all the time!

To my great surprise, they've given him some solid grounding as a character.  He knowns what he wants and he knows he's a monster, but he doesn't fuck around.  I was really afraid this show would turn out to be another of those mamby-pamby ones where nothing ever really happens and by the end, everything is back where it should be.  Nope!  Gotta give them credit for actually doing things with actual consequences.  

[phalange]

The beginning with Lucy and Agent Christopher was a good scene. It was smart of Agent Christopher to give Lucy the USB, although I hope they never have to use it. 

As soon as they talked about having to leave Rufus behind in order to see Rittenhouse, I knew he would somehow come to save the day. Go Rufus! When they first started fighting, I thought that the son might end up accidentally being killed or would get killed trying to save someone, especially after Lucy sort of bonded with him and he said no one had ever asked his opinion before. Perhaps that, plus Lucy saving him, will cause him to follow a different path than his father.

I wonder where Flynn is taking Lucy. I imagine he'd want to go back to the present to see if killing Rittenhouse brought his family back, but going there would defeat the purpose of him kidnapping her.

[methodwriter85]

I'm going to be seriously pissed if we get back to the present and things are more or less normal. That would be a major cop-out given that they just killed off Cornwallis before he surrendered. That should have MAJOR consequences.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

22 minutes ago, methodwriter85 said:

I'm going to be seriously pissed if we get back to the present and things are more or less normal. That would be a major cop-out given that they just killed off Cornwallis before he surrendered. That should have MAJOR consequences.

I wonder if the personal lives of all 3 of the main protagonists won't be significantly changed - or at least Wyatt & Rufus, since Lucy already had hers in losing Amy, gaining a fiance & having her mom healthy - by the (past) events of this episode.  As already said, those were major changes to history - Arnold, Cornwallis & 'the original' Rittenhouse.

Will Wyatt's wife be back (already, not wait for the ship-stall moment for the moment that 'Wucy' starts getting serious)?  Rufus won't have the personal connection to Mason, or Jiya?  As I already said in an earlier post, maybe Mason won't even be there (in charge) when they get back? 

There needs to be significant changes somewhere noticeable, if not in their own personal spheres.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

So, I think I understood what Rittenhouse is, after the explanations the kid gave Lucy, but I am more than willing to accept I really don't if anyone else has a better understanding.  Here goes.....

Rittenhouse is basically an iteration of the "Illuminati" concept, right?  Meaning a group of very powerful individuals runs everything - 'everything' in this case being what the show needs it to be - from the shadows and/or behind the scenes?  The powerful, IE 'clockmakers', control things and the 'peasants' live on blissfully unaware & content that they're lives are being controlled.

That sound correct, or did I misinterpret it?

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, MzLiz said:

...For a minute I thought David Rittenhouse was Ben Franklin....

At first I too thought Rittenhouse was Benjamin Franklin. Then, with his obsession with time and clocks, I thought he was essential to the creation of the time travel device and that as soon as they killed him, their way back to the 21st century would disappear.

 

1 hour ago, phalange said:

...As soon as they talked about having to leave Rufus behind in order to see Rittenhouse, I knew he would somehow come to save the day. Go Rufus!...

I like to imagine that Flynn was counting on that too when Benedict Arnold said they should leave some of the group behind and Flynn didn't hesitate to suggest Rufus.

[bros402]

That was a good episode.

But killing Cornwallis is hopefully going to have gigantic effects on the timeline.

[BooBear]

Good episode. But man I wanted to kill that kid. "Father says that peasants are smelly and fowl"  KILL HIM. :) Rittenhouse was a bit of a mustache twirling bad guy -no? I thought he was going to tie Lucy to the railroad tracks. 

My major huh from the episode was how did the time machine get to Rittenhouse's property? I mean Flynn didn't know where Rittenhouse was?

The guest actors are significantly good. Benedict Arnold was more than a place holder and so was George Washington. 
 

[Writing Wrongs]

Good to know Principal Snyder is still a douche.

Is the guy running things in the present, Lucy's dad, a Rittenhouse descendant? If they killed the kid, wouldn't Lucy be erased?

[Netfoot]

So, does the Big Eyeball have some sort of cloaking feature?  It appeared at a very convenient place and time for Flynn to make his getaway.  Or was it already there and simply uncloaked for him to board?

6 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

So how many weeks are we waiting for the next episode?

More to the point, what rubbish will be presented for our viewing pleasure in the mean time?  

6 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I'm going to be seriously pissed if we get back to the present and things are more or less normal. That would be a major cop-out given that they just killed off Cornwallis before he surrendered. That should have MAJOR consequences.

My history isn't strong, but didn't his surrender at Yorktown signal the end of the war for US independence?  If so, his premature death would imply a different commander, with who knows what differing results.

[benteen]

There needs to be consequences after what they did.  The future should be altered though the significance of the alterations would probably be massive.

I kept thinking that Wyatt should have just popped Flynn at some point.  Flynn is completely out-of-control with his indiscriminate killing and needs to be put down.

Despite how bad they are as time travelers, I continue to love the trio too.

Edited December 13, 2016 by benteen

[dubbel zout]

Why didn't Flynn go back to 1778 or earlier to kill Rittenhouse? That way he couldn't have started the organization in the first place. And why wasn't that the first trip?

[BooBear]

1 minute ago, dubbel zout said:

Why didn't Flynn go back to 1778 or earlier to kill Rittenhouse? That way he couldn't have started the organization in the first place. And why wasn't that the first trip?

I know I was thinking that too. Haven't these people ever seen "the terminator' just kill his mother before she gives birth.

[Primetimer]

But he suddenly seems less important than Agent Christopher.

View the full article

[DearEvette]

9 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

What do you bet that they find out that the real Rittenhouse who caused all the problems was the kid, not the father? Though it does seem like the organization already existed.

I almost believe that has to be the case.  The kid has been fed a steady of diet of The Poors are awful etc. etc. all his life and you just don't wipe that away in one night.  We don't know how much of his father's philosophy he really has internalized.  Just because he is young doesn't mean he isn't a sociopath.  And regardless of how much or little he may have agreed with his dad, these people killed his father.

Speaking of, I was so nervous about how Rittenhouse was eyeing that modern gun.  I was almost sure he would get away and the gun with him.  Talk about a historic catastrophe!

I also Iove how there is a thread through the show that while Lucy and Wyatt's whiteness gives them visual access to all the major haps, Rufus being black requires him to work on the fringes, almost invisibly and yet his very invisibility is almost always the thing that helps them out at a critical time.   Also, given how invisible slaves, POC and servants seem to be  in all points in history they would have made a fabulous spy network.

[Maverick]

39 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Why didn't Flynn go back to 1778 or earlier to kill Rittenhouse? That way he couldn't have started the organization in the first place. And why wasn't that the first trip?

 They didn't know Rittenhouse was one man until this episode.  Nothing about the organization is documented.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, benteen said:

Arnold didn't really do anything of note after he went to England so that won't have much affect on the timeline.

He fathered 4 children after that time, and all of the boys were officers in the British Army, so there were four vanished people right off, and who knows how many off of that family tree.

8 hours ago, MzLiz said:

What if today's "Rittenhouse" is formed by the little boy simply because Flynn came in killed his father and tried to kill him? What if Flynn created exactly what he was trying to eradicate.

That was my thought. In the context of that, for his purposes Flynn wasn't wrong in wanting to kill the boy. So I'm guessing Rittenhouse is still the major shadow puppeteer.

2 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

Is the guy running things in the present, Lucy's dad, a Rittenhouse descendant? If they killed the kid, wouldn't Lucy be erased?

That passed through my mind too - but they've established that Rittenhouse had followers, so Lucy's father might not be a blood descendant, even if he was born into Rittenhouse. Or at least, that's the explanation they'd use if they had killed the kid.

When Flynn blocked the door, and they were banging against it, I thought "hey, you know those big assed windows in the room? Why don't you get out that way?"

Loved seeing Shimmerman as Rittenhouse - I actually laughed with pleasure when I saw him.

[Ripley68]

Add me to those who thought Rittenhouse was Franklin too.  I thought, "ah, hell no, they're going to make Ben a bad guy!" This is the first episode I thought they failed with Lucy's hair.  When they've gone back before (the French war and Alamo episodes), they've had her hair pulled back.  I've been wondering why they always have such urgency in leaving right after Flynn before, but tonight finally got it.  If he makes it back before the leave, whatever he did is now history and they wouldn't know any different.  I feel kind of duh.

Rufus whacking the white guy might also have repurcussions for slavery in the future.  Shouldn't Lucy know the name Rittenhouse since she's an historian?

[withanaich]

Quote

it's impossible to make the pin point change that will simply make his wife alive again (married to him/with the same child, etc). More likely erase out of existance or completely unaware of who he is. I mean, I honestly don't see how they'd really ever get Lucy's sister back. I don't see how they can go back and create the exact dots that need to connect for that to happen.

I keep thinking the same thing. Both Flynn and Lucy are seriously delusional if they think they can just undo something like that. Like you said, even if they go back in time and undo the actions that led to Flynn's family dying and Lucy's sister not existing, it's essentially impossible that the sister that DOES exist is going to be the one Lucy knew. She might end up with a brother instead, or three brothers, or wipe her own birth out of existence. And even if Flynn makes it so that Rittenhouse can't kill his wife, he might never meet her. Even more likely, her parents would end up with a different daughter or three sons instead. 

Quote

if my kid disappeared and I never even knew she existed, I'm not sure I'd want to be reminded of it, to say nothing of 'in great detail'.  Sometimes you're happy not knowing, heck, never knowing.  There's nothing you can do so why dwell on the lives of 'possible children' from another timeline that you can't ever 'get back' so to speak. 

I think Agent Christopher realizes that, though, which is why she's making that decision for her alternate reality self. Because this Agent Christopher doesn't want to forget them, and she knows that a different version of herself (oy, this is making my head hurt) would very likely say, "no, don't tell me." 

Quote

As soon as they talked about having to leave Rufus behind in order to see Rittenhouse, I knew he would somehow come to save the day. Go Rufus! 

Ditto. Rufus is the MVP. I love how even when he's being a badass, he’s still adorably awkward about it. Did you see him running and ducking for cover after he busted in to save the day? Hee!

Quote

Why didn't Flynn go back to 1778 or earlier to kill Rittenhouse? That way he couldn't have started the organization in the first place. And why wasn't that the first trip?

Because somehow we’re supposed to believe that Flynn didn’t do ANY research on the origins of this group. He was clever/diligent enough to discover them, but not to pinpoint the best way to take them out. I can believe that Wyatt and Rufus were surprised to learn that Rittenhouse was a real person, maaaaybe even Lucy the historian (she can't know everything about history, even if the show wants to pretend otherwise when it's convenient), but Flynn? When bringing this group down is his raison d’etre? He seriously didn’t consult Google for like three seconds and think, hmm, maybe the group is named after this man, who was alive around the time it was formed? Maybe I should just go kill this one person instead of jumping around through history and trying to cut America off at the knees? You still risk making the man a martyr for his cause, or someone else taking his place (like his creepy-ass son), but it's a lot easier and more direct than hoping that by taking away the country's power, you can take away the group's power. It's also more direct (and probably more effective) than targeting high-profile followers. If Flynn could find out who on the Hindenburg ended up being affiliated with Rittenhouse, then he could certainly find out why the hell they're called Rittenhouse in the first place. I can handwave a lot of silliness on this show, but I'm having a really hard time with that part.

[basiltherat]

Ooh, Papa Rittenhouse was not only a toad, but a horn-y toad!  I was surprised he was a small, ugly man and not a more dynamic and better looking one..   I knew as soon as the son started spouting the philosophy that Flynn needed to kill the boy above all, but he got the softies because of stupid Lucy.  The boy now has a purpose and will seek revenge with even more severity. Flynn should have gone back in time fifty or so years previous and killed old Ritt in his cradle. 

Show is trying to push its own liberal agenda with the Rittenhouse philosophy echoing Nazi-ism and sonny boy spouting some Trump-ian hair!

I think John Getz (Lucy's dad) is a direct descendant of Rittenhouse.  Will that mean that Lucy is, too?

The info that the "present day" has regarding Rittenhouse, etal  MAY NOT be the same info that we the audience in the present have.  Maybe Rittenhouse (the cabal) erased all history of itself and are in real deep cover.

[dubbel zout]

I was thinking they might bring the son back to 2016 with them. 

54 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 They didn't know Rittenhouse was one man until this episode.  Nothing about the organization is documented.

Oh, right! But then how did Flynn know to come back to this particular date? Was it because he knew Arnold was a member of Rittenhouse? I really need to start paying closer attention to details. I get distracted by some of the bigger handwaving that's required.

52 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

When Flynn blocked the door, and they were banging against it, I thought "hey, you know those big assed windows in the room? Why don't you get out that way?"

Same here! 

[BooBear]

6 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I was thinking they might bring the son back to 2016 with them.

I actually thought somehow the kid would get in the CBS eye. Of course... Wyatt could grab the kid to trade with Flynn for Lucy.

[KaveDweller]

17 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I was thinking they might bring the son back to 2016 with them. 

Oh, right! But then how did Flynn know to come back to this particular date? Was it because he knew Arnold was a member of Rittenhouse? I really need to start paying closer attention to details. I get distracted by some of the bigger handwaving that's required.

Same here! 

The key he stole last week is what let him open that clock and find a letter about Rittenhouse. The letter told him Arnold was in Rittenhouse, so he went back to interrogate him. I guess he thought if he told Washington about Arnold's betrayed, he'd have help capturing the guy. Because he could have gone back to a much ore boring day and gotten access to Arnold then.

[Randomosity]

9 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

So, I think I understood what Rittenhouse is, after the explanations the kid gave Lucy, but I am more than willing to accept I really don't if anyone else has a better understanding.  Here goes.....

Rittenhouse is basically an iteration of the "Illuminati" concept, right?  Meaning a group of very powerful individuals runs everything - 'everything' in this case being what the show needs it to be - from the shadows and/or behind the scenes?  The powerful, IE 'clockmakers', control things and the 'peasants' live on blissfully unaware & content that they're lives are being controlled.

That sound correct, or did I misinterpret it?

 

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

At first I too thought Rittenhouse was Benjamin Franklin. Then, with his obsession with time and clocks, I thought he was essential to the creation of the time travel device and that as soon as they killed him, their way back to the 21st century would disappear.

 

I like to imagine that Flynn was counting on that too when Benedict Arnold said they should leave some of the group behind and Flynn didn't hesitate to suggest Rufus.

I hadn't thought about his work as a clockmaker having anything to do with the time travel. Interesting point.

What did pop into my brain was the concept of Deism and God as just a clockmaker that doesn't interfere with anything once it's set into motion. But that's all I know about it, so I can't comment further on whether that has anything to do with what Rittenhouse is portrayed as, etc. Anyone an expert on Deism?

 

Normally they get Lucy's look right, but holy hell did her hair look way too modern. If they were trying for some sort of ringlet/pin curls, they failed miserably.

[rur]

2 hours ago, Randomosity said:

What did pop into my brain was the concept of Deism and God as just a clockmaker that doesn't interfere with anything once it's set into motion. But that's all I know about it, so I can't comment further on whether that has anything to do with what Rittenhouse is portrayed as, etc. Anyone an expert on Deism?

I was reminded of that, too. It was a popular idea among many at the time, including Thomas Jefferson. I think the show has Rittenhouse taking the idea of a clock, something with which he was familiar, and then twisting the deistic ideas to fit his philosophy.

This is from a reputable web site: https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/age-jefferson-and-madisonreligion/essays/thomas-jefferson-and-deism

" … the natural world was like a great book, made legible to scientists (or “natural philosophers”) through its predictable and lawful patterns. Enlightened men who discerned nature’s laws could begin to master the world, promoting the improvement of man’s lot and fulfilling God’s original intentions for His creation. Even politics could be reduced to a science, Revolutionary law-givers insisted, as they crafted new constitutions for self-governing peoples in the states and for the federal union. These constitutions were like machines or instruments for determining and enacting the will of a progressively more enlightened political public: they were something like the great clock that the deists’ clockmaker God had set in motion at the beginning of time." 

I think the show has Rittenhouse believing only a chosen few could be enlightened or self-governing, and the rest would remain peasants, moving endlessly with no self-direction,  like the parts of a clock controlled by him.

Edited December 13, 2016 by rur
grammar

[tennisgurl]

Holy crap, they killed off Arnold AND Cornwallis? This is the first time I feel like they have really messed with time in ways that cant be looked over, especially with Cornwallis. Sorry Flynn, but just assuming some other guy will negotiate with Napoleon isn't going to cut it! 

We also meet the original Rittenhouse, who it turns out was all kinds of gross. And he is part of your typical "Conspiracy of Men Who Sit in Poorly Lit Rooms and Rule the World" kind of conspiracy. An American Illuminati, basically. Maybe David makes for the more diverse Rittenhouse in the future, as we know that by the 1960s they will have a black female doctor working with them, whos family has been working for Rittenhouse for generations. Or maybe he becomes even nastier after seeing his father get killed and almost dying, and creates all the problems to begin with! Oh the irony! 

Flynn is a really good villain now that we have an idea of what his plan is, and I am fascinated by the fact that his plan SUCKS. Why didn't he do this from the start if he knew who Rittenhouse was? Why screw around with the Space Race and the Alamo and all this other crap? And why the hell does he think destroying Rittenhouse/America will bring his family back? Its more likely his family will never have existed at all. You would think a guy as smart as Flynn would have considered that. Hell, he is lucky he still exists at all, he`s killed so many random people, and his whole plan is to screw with the country his mom is from. 

I really do like the cast, and they do a great job with the guest stars and the looks of the time periods. The Rittenhouse stuff just exists to get the plot moving, this show is best when it just has the three heroes playing off each other and having historical adventures. You know, maybe Wyatt should have given Lucy some self defense training or something, so that the bad guy couldn't just grab her arm and drag her off. Maybe next season!

Hmmmm what time period or event should they visit after break? Sinking of the Titanic? Battle of Little Big Horn? Great Chicago Fire? Fall of the Berlin Wall? Oh the possibilities!

[iMonrey]

Quote

Flynn is a really good villain now that we have an idea of what his plan is, and I am fascinated by the fact that his plan SUCKS. Why didn't he do this from the start if he knew who Rittenhouse was? Why screw around with the Space Race and the Alamo and all this other crap?

Initially that was my take-away as well. However, after reading through this thread I've come to realize he didn't actually know when Rittenhouse was formed or who Rittenhouse even was. He found the key, opened the clock, and learned just last week Benedict Arnold was a member of Rittenhouse, so that's what made him go back to 1780 to interrogate him. He just stumbled into the revelation of who Rittenhouse really was by luck. (The "doc" in the Watergate episode is the one who told Lucy Rittenhouse was formed back in 1778 - nobody revealed that to Flynn.)

So essentially he's just been jumping around to random points in time until now, I think based on Lucy's journal. She seems to have recorded key points in time that would endanger Rittenhouse if they were altered. We still don't know how he got that journal or why Lucy wrote it.

I'm intrigued that this episode finally managed to shake things up. I was looking at the clock during the last four minutes trying to figure out how they were going to have enough time to get back to the present day and show us what had changed, if anything. Realistically they should find some kind of major change when they get back and it will be a cop-out if they don't.

Bad job with the hair styles this episode. Both Lucy and Wyatt stuck out like sore thumbs. 

The show has been very cautious with Rufus going back to a slave era by making a point of saying he's a free man in those episodes, but at some point they're going to have to run into a situation where he is at least presumed to be a slave by the people of that era. I think this episode handled the situation pretty well but it's awkward and they clearly know it.

[NorthstarATL]

Lucy looking like Little Red Riding Hood (minus the hood) was distracting to me throughout the episode. As always, the hairstyles of Wyatt and Lucy are sore thumbs (Rufus actually seems to blend better throughout), but the story itself was fun, especially as I enjoyed AMC's series "Turn", and seeing the different (and far less attractive) re-casts was amusing.

  When Lucy was at what's-her-name's home at the beginning, I wanted her to at least point out that the loss of her sister is NOT fun for her, and maybe, if you are a part of the new timeline, like her mother, you don't experience the "loss of a child", because it never actually happened to you. The woman's family would be an interesting bit of facts for her in  new timeline, but would have no emotional resonance.

  I know Arnold and Cornwallis were of historical import, but I want the timeline to be changed significantly because the two red-coated red shirts were killed. We peasants (as Little Rittenhouse called us) probably have as much significance on the timeline as the named folks.

  I hope Flynn isn't going to take Lucy up on that whole fatherhood thing she was selling him.

[dubbel zout]

22 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Sorry Flynn, but just assuming some other guy will negotiate with Napoleon isn't going to cut it! 

Flynn hasn't shown much respect for what could happen when he's killed others, but this seemed needlessly careless even for him. At least Lincoln died anyway, even if it wasn't exactly in the original fashion.

22 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

The Rittenhouse stuff just exists to get the plot moving, this show is best when it just has the three heroes playing off each other and having historical adventures.

I sort of wish the show had the team doing the inverse, i.e., going back to the past to correct history to what we (i.e., the audience) know it is now. Somehow Rittenhouse has a chronicle of that history, and the fight is on.

This idea can't be any more problematic than the one the show actually has.

6 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Bad job with the hair styles this episode. Both Lucy and Wyatt stuck out like sore thumbs. 

Do they ever do anything to Wyatt's hair?

6 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

The show has been very cautious with Rufus going back to a slave era by making a point of saying he's a free man in those episodes, but at some point they're going to have to run into a situation where he is at least presumed to be a slave by the people of that era.

Or no one will care that Rufus is a freeman because he's first and foremost black in that situation. They sort of did that last week, with Frank Hamer saving the day because justice was more important to him than skin color. It's kind of a copout, though I totally understand why they do it. (And in the case of Hamer, it appears to be historically accurate.)

Edited December 13, 2016 by dubbel zout