Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

[rue721]

16 minutes ago, thehorseofpower said:

Or maybe this "I've been in love with Austin since I was 13" (or 15, or whatever age she has claimed to have first noticed him) is all a bit of a retcon in Joy's mind to convince herself they have some great love story or were destined to be together. Especially if they've  been having problems as some have speculated, the need to convince herself he is the only guy for her could be strong.

I completely agree.

This is the same girl who said something about Jim Bob and Austin deciding if and when there would be a wedding. There wasn't some big romance, unless it was between those two men.

Joy is trapped in an extremely patriarchal culture, and that's probably lonely and alienating, and I think Joy is trying to paste a happy face on it all.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, Jeeves said:

I think Austin is pretty well entrenched in the fundie world view, and I'm sure he's had a strong influence on Joy. If she was attracted to him from age 15, that alone might have pushed any religious doubts to the back of her mind or banished them altogether.

Of course, as far as I remember Austin's the only other one in this whole Gothard crowd who's also renowned for his "rebellion" and some kind of breakaway. I don't remember many details being described for it, but it was described as fairly substantial, at least by the standards of this nutso Michael-Pearl-friendly crew.

I don't know any time line on that or what it really consisted of. But clearly it was before his current orthodoxy.

So their histories seem to make them both repentant former apostates who've returned to the fold as super-strict adherents to not just the religion but the cult world their parents shoved down their throats. 

That kind of thing can be merely a temporary fear-driven bounceback to the faith of their fathers for some people. You don't necessarily doubt and run, then return and strongly embrace a fundamentaler-than-thou position -- and then keep to that orthodox position forever. 

Seems to me a pair of former rebels, now apparently holier-and-more-rule-abiding-than thou, actually have a fairly good chance of eventually seeing their rebellion rise again inside them....and then realize that two may be able to quit the army of the correct Jesus and Bill Gothard more easily than one. 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Churchhoney

[emmawoodhouse]

Austin looked pretty compliant in the World's Strictest Parents episode. He was around 15-16, so I assume his little smoking rebellion happened before that. 

[Churchhoney]

17 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Austin looked pretty compliant in the World's Strictest Parents episode. He was around 15-16, so I assume his little smoking rebellion happened before that. 

To everyone who saw me as a kid -- everyone -- I looked like the most compliant person on the planet. And, in fact, I comported myself as the most compliant kid on the planet and tried a lot of the time to feel that way, too. And there was an astonishing amount of crap I was required to comply with. 

But eventually the conviction boiled up that I should leave before I exploded to my detriment and the detriment of everybody else. And it sent me out of there like a rocket! It can be very hard to tell what's going on inside a teenager.

And their parents regularly beat these kids with sticks and plumbing lines, from the time they were very very little, and convinced them throughout their lives that hell was utterly real and had places all prepared for burning them alive for eternity. That can make a difference in how compliant somebody looks to the naked eye! ....and it can plant some unexploded bombs inside people, too...

I'm not saying that Joy and Austin are necessarily people of the kind who break away. But I find it odd that there's such an apparent consensus about them being super conservative now and somehow all set up to stay that way, just based on what we're shown and what we see on the surface. There are plenty of stories out there that go the other way, too. .... 

I think Jill was pretty well written off as a Duggarling who'd never veer from the designated pathway, too, wasn't she? They're all people. Some will probably spend their whole lives being robots. But it's unlikely that all of them will. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Churchhoney

[emmawoodhouse]

I totally veered off my parents' foray into fundamentalism when I was about 15. I get it. Run Jill, RUN!!!!!

However, it appears that Joy and Austin were successfully brought back into the fold and have not only bought in, but doubled down on the belief system. 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[Zella]

16 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

But I find it odd that there's such an apparent consensus about them being super conservative now and somehow all set up to stay that way, just based on what we're shown and what we see on the surface.

I think their extracurricular social media ventures into Parler are one reason for this. 

[emmawoodhouse]

Don't forget those blowhard Freedomists! 😂

[Churchhoney]

1 minute ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I totally veered off my parents' foray into fundamentalism when I was about 15. I get it. Run Jill, RUN!!!!!

However, it appears that Joy and Austin were successfully brought back into the fold and have not only bought in, but doubled down on the belief system. 

 

Yeah, I agree that it could go that way.

But I also know some people who were brought back into folds and became super super strict and stayed that way for a considerable period -- and then made completely unexpected bolts to various kinds of freedoms and stayed with those apparently forever (nobody I'm thinking of is dead yet, but they're getting damn old so I doubt they'll go back...!) 

I just think it's more of a coin flip which way it goes. 

[Zella]

My take on Joy and Austin--which is definitely influenced by what I have seen by other people--is that people who do the teenaged rebellion thing but then stick around often tend to double-down, almost like they're trying to make up for the rebellion. 

I had wondered how they would handle the fallout of the grief from their stillborn daughter--and to their credit (or at least Joy's credit), they did seem to be more gracious about it than I'd expected and I think Joy and Austin might have become closer as a couple as a result--but I suspect it may have also thrown them on an even more fundie road. But that's just me guessing.

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Zella

[Growsonwalls]

I think both Joy has very little sense of self beyond being Austin's wife and mommy to Gideon and Evy. So of course she's going to say Austin was the guy she was crushing on since she was 15, since "so my dad knew this family from church and thought we'd be a good match" isn't as romantic sounding. She wants to paint it as this great love story. 

I also think that since Joy is an "influencer" she might think pushing a love story is good for her brand. 

[emmawoodhouse]

13 minutes ago, Zella said:

My take on Joy and Austin--which is definitely influenced by what I have seen by other people--is that people who do the teenaged rebellion thing but then stick around often tend to double-down, almost like they're trying to make up for the rebellion. 

I had wondered how they would handle the fallout of the grief from their stillborn daughter--and to their credit (or at least Joy's credit), they did seem to be more gracious about it than I'd expected and I think Joy and Austin might have become closer as a couple as a result--but I suspect it may have also thrown them on an even more fundie road. But that's just me guessing.

 

This. Miscarrying Annabell was reason for them to triple down on the beliefs. I think it would be a miracle if they even dialed it back to mainstream evangelical, which is about where Jill resides these days.

[Zella]

1 minute ago, emmawoodhouse said:

This. Miscarrying Annabell was reason for them to triple down on the beliefs. I think it would be a miracle if they even dialed it back to mainstream evangelical, which is about where Jill resides these days.

And I think compounding that is they seem to live in an echo chamber. I mean, a lot of the Duggars do, of course, but just the general sense I get of the people whom they're associating with and surrounding themselves with and following on social media suggests to me they have no interest in broadening their horizons.

That doesn't have to be permanent, but the general trend of right now definitely seems to be them doubling down rather than dialing back. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Zella

[emmawoodhouse]

Agree 100%.

[GeeGolly]

I definitely think Austin's parents are a big influence on the couple and I think their crowd, or as @Zella put it, echo chamber, keeps them conservative. I think the Parler crowd allows them to 'rebel' in a way that is acceptable to Austin's parents and likely JB & M, to a degree. 

To me Austin is one of those sweet-at-his core guys, with asshole tendencies. I don't mean as in toward Joy, but more as in, my way is the right way and the world at large isn't following suit, but he's genuinely a nice guy. The Parler crowd validates the way Austin was raised and allows for an outlet to release his self-righteousness. 

But... I think Joy and Austin are more conservative in theory and less spiritual. To me, Jill has always thought she was spiritual, she tries to be spiritual, but she has a hard time digging deep. Jessa thinks reading the Bible makes her and her family spiritual, and Austin and Joy think being conservative is spiritual. 

[Tikichick]

More than a few times I've known avid smokers to become the fiercest anti smokers, until even many years later something pushes them to pick up cigarettes with a vengeance again.   

Participation in Parler and being comfortable within that crowd and mindset to me further demonstrates both Joy and Austin seek out validation and influence.   IMO the propulsion of that movement doesn't arise from intellect or firm belief system, but more from fear, anxieties and a need to find something to rally around and settle down fears and anxieties.   If so, the particulars of the rallying cry can change out over time, as the only real importance is the security in having some idea to follow.

[louannems]

11 hours ago, thehorseofpower said:

Or maybe this "I've been in love with Austin since I was 13" (or 15, or whatever age she has claimed to have first noticed him) is all a bit of a retcon in Joy's mind to convince herself they have some great love story or were destined to be together. Especially if they've  been having problems as some have speculated, the need to convince herself he is the only guy for her could be strong.

I do agree with this!  I keep remembering back to the episode where all the kids went camping.  Jinger was courting Jeremy and was absolutely glued to her phone.  And Joy was openly disgusted that Jinger was acting so boy crazy.  She even admitted that courting and marriage were just too much work and she didn't see that in her future.  Then suddenly she and Austin were courting and Joy was acting all whispery and stupid and couldn't decide on a flavor for her wedding cake!  Her marriage seemed to me to be arranged by their parents.

[rue721]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

To me Austin is one of those sweet-at-his core guys, with asshole tendencies.

Sorry, but I don't see this at all.

I think Austin is a very angry person. I think that's why he's drawn to angry, belligerent social/political groups, like the Freedomists. I think that's why he turned to drinking and partying for a while as a teenager. I think that's why he's probably fairly difficult for Joy to live with, although I do think he genuinely loves his children.

To be fair, Austin's parents were proud of being Pearl supporters and applied to be on World's Strictest Parents, etc, so I think he probably has plenty of reason to be angry.

[beckie]

42 minutes ago, louannems said:

I do agree with this!  I keep remembering back to the episode where all the kids went camping.  Jinger was courting Jeremy and was absolutely glued to her phone.  And Joy was openly disgusted that Jinger was acting so boy crazy.  She even admitted that courting and marriage were just too much work and she didn't see that in her future.  Then suddenly she and Austin were courting and Joy was acting all whispery and stupid and couldn't decide on a flavor for her wedding cake!  Her marriage seemed to me to be arranged by their parents.

In the episode where Austin asked to court Joy, if I'm remembering correctly,  JB said well Joy will do it , whether she wants to or not. 

Like I said, I could be misremembering,  but it was something to that effect. 

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

Sorry, but I don't see this at all.

I think Austin is a very angry person. I think that's why he's drawn to angry, belligerent social/political groups, like the Freedomists. I think that's why he turned to drinking and partying for a while as a teenager. I think that's why he's probably fairly difficult for Joy to live with, although I do think he genuinely loves his children.

To be fair, Austin's parents were proud of being Pearl supporters and applied to be on World's Strictest Parents, etc, so I think he probably has plenty of reason to be angry.

I was unaware Austin turned to drinking and partying. There was an extended period of time he was abusing alcohol and drugs? I only recall Joy and Austin saying they had crises of faith and didn't know either one shared any details. Do you know where I could find this clip or article? My curiosity certainly is piqued.

[rue721]

51 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

There was an extended period of time he was abusing alcohol and drugs?

I didn't say he was "abusing" either alcohol or drugs, I doubt he was even using any drugs. As far as I know, the extent of his "rebellion" was teenage partying with his circle of guy friends, and most or maybe all of the guys then came back to "Christ," meaning in this case back to the cult.

It was some interview but I don't remember when/where and don't have a clip, unfortunately.

[GeeGolly]

36 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I didn't say he was "abusing" either alcohol or drugs, I doubt he was even using any drugs. As far as I know, the extent of his "rebellion" was teenage partying with his circle of guy friends, and most or maybe all of the guys then came back to "Christ," meaning in this case back to the cult.

It was some interview but I don't remember when/where and don't have a clip, unfortunately.

Sorry, I misunderstood the phrase "turned to" alcohol. Having a beer or two with friends is a whole different ball of wax, to me.

[doodlebug]

31 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Sorry, I misunderstood the phrase "turned to" alcohol. Having a beer or two with friends is a whole different ball of wax, to me.

In this crowd, where alcohol is demonized and followers try to prevent its legal sale in local stores, even having a couple of drinks is a big act of rebellion.  For most of us, born to parents who were known to have a drink or two on occasion or even get outright sauced; a couple of beers at a high school party would be par for the course.  Austin was raised in a far more conservative way than most of us and even a couple of drinks would be considered a huge violation of the standards.

I don't know if anyone here ever watched the really awful but snarkable show Seventh Heaven; but there was a plot on the show that demonstrates my point.  The show is about a conservative Christian minister and his wife; I don't think there was a specific denomination.  They had 5 kids, eventually 7, on the show.  The kids were raised in an incredibly sheltered hothouse environment on the show and behaved in ways that normal teenagers do not.  The second oldest was a girl named Mary (played by Jessica Biel, now Mrs Justin Timberlake).  Mary was the family rebel, always getting into trouble.  She was thrown off the girls' basketball team in high school because they TP'd the school gym after the coach cracked down on them for their grades (oh noes!!!).  Mary also had the audacity to date a kid who was a teen father and although he worked and went to school and supported his kid; he was clearly a terrible person for having had THE SEX and the parents hated him.  Eventually, while babysitting for some friends, Mary drank half a beer after the kids were asleep.  That's right, HALF A BEER!  The parents found out and you would've thought she;'d knocked over a liquor store and drank a fifth of vodka in the parking lot.  They immediately sent her to her grandparents in Buffalo (they lived in California) to teach her a lesson and get her back on the straight and narrow.  BTW,  she was a high school graduate and 18 years old when this occurred, but the parents still forced it to happen; going so far as to purchase the plane ticket and drive her to the airport just hours after discovering the transgression.  It was nuts, but I don't doubt the Duggars would react in similar fashion.

ETA: The reason why Mary was written off the show is because Jessica Biel did an interview complete with suggestive photos for Maxim and the producer felt she had insulted the show.  The star of the show, playing the minister, was Stephen Collins who some of you may remember was involved in a sex scandal involving abuse of a 14 year old girl. He remained on the show until the bitter end.

Edited February 17, 2021 by doodlebug

[Zella]

I think their definition of teenaged rebellion is very different from normal. I've encountered this before with fundies. When I was at C of O, one woman was talking about her husband's struggles with alcohol. And I'm not diminishing whatever he felt like he experienced, but the way she was carrying on, I was expecting some pretty hardcore issues, especially since I have a pretty impressive rogue's gallery of drunks and drug addicts who love to brawl in the family tree. And when she finally got around to providing details, I think this dude maybe did a little bit of binge-drinking in his 20s. But she was selling it like he was one A.A. meeting away from dying of cirrhosis. It was very jarring to me, but I looked around the room and saw quite a few people absolutely enraptured with this seedy tale of sin. 

Just realized I cross-posted with @doodlebug. But yeah. I would be very curious at the details of what Austin actually did. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Zella

[Growsonwalls]

9 minutes ago, Zella said:

I think their definition of teenaged rebellion is very different from normal. I've encountered this before with fundies. When I was at C of O, one woman was talking about her husband's struggles with alcohol. And I'm not diminishing whatever he felt like he experienced, but the way she was carrying on, I was expecting some pretty hardcore issues, especially since I have a pretty impressive rogue's gallery of drunks and drug addicts who love to brawl in the family tree. And when she finally got around to providing details, I think this dude maybe did a little bit of binge-drinking in his 20s. But she was selling it like he was one A.A. meeting away from dying of cirrhosis. It was very jarring to me, but I looked around the room and saw quite a few people absolutely enraptured with this seedy tale of sin. 

Just realized I cross-posted with @doodlebug. But yeah. I would be very curious at the details of what Austin actually did. 

Ok I'm actually wondering if Austin had some anger/violence issues as a kid and it was brushed off as a "rebellion." But his parents under the guise of a "rebellion" sent him to therapy. I could definitely see that. 

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Ok I'm actually wondering if Austin had some anger/violence issues as a kid and it was brushed off as a "rebellion." But his parents under the guise of a "rebellion" sent him to therapy. I could definitely see that. 

He may have had some more severe issues that they concealed, but I seriously doubt they sent him to real therapy. Maybe something like ALERT. Do we have any confirmation he went to ALERT?

Edited February 17, 2021 by Zella

[GeeGolly]

I'm aware that the Fundy definition of rebellion is vastly different than the mainstream definition, so it leaves me wondering if much of Austin's rebellious time is more speculation that over time, turned into fact. 

Like with Joy, we have no idea what her crisis of faith was. It could have been wanting to leave the fold, wanting to wear pants or cut her hair, wanting to date rather than wait, etc. I'm assuming it couldn't have been that big of a deal if it was resolved by a talk with her older brother.

 

[MargeGunderson]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I think their definition of teenaged rebellion is very different from normal. I've encountered this before with fundies. When I was at C of O, one woman was talking about her husband's struggles with alcohol. And I'm not diminishing whatever he felt like he experienced, but the way she was carrying on, I was expecting some pretty hardcore issues, especially since I have a pretty impressive rogue's gallery of drunks and drug addicts who love to brawl in the family tree. And when she finally got around to providing details, I think this dude maybe did a little bit of binge-drinking in his 20s. But she was selling it like he was one A.A. meeting away from dying of cirrhosis. It was very jarring to me, but I looked around the room and saw quite a few people absolutely enraptured with this seedy tale of sin. 

Just realized I cross-posted with @doodlebug. But yeah. I would be very curious at the details of what Austin actually did. 

Yeah, when I was at a small Southern nominally religious college, a friend asked for prayers for me at the weekly college Baptists meeting, because I had a part of a beer. The horror! I doubt Austin was really up to much.

Edited February 17, 2021 by MargeGunderson

[OpieTaylor]

I watched a video a couple of years ago of JB and Michelle talking to a church youth group of teens. JB was the one who said that Austin and the guy his sister is married to (who is some recognizable fundy’s son) and another youth fell into drinking and smoking for awhile. But 2 of them repented and the 3rd boy ended up in jail or maybe even prison. JB called Austin out by name.

[GeeGolly]

20 minutes ago, OpieTaylor said:

I watched a video a couple of years ago of JB and Michelle talking to a church youth group of teens. JB was the one who said that Austin and the guy his sister is married to (who is some recognizable fundy’s son) and another youth fell into drinking and smoking for awhile. But 2 of them repented and the 3rd boy ended up in jail or maybe even prison. JB called Austin out by name.

JB is known for his 'fishing stories'. He could have turned 2 guys getting caught sharing one cigarette and one beer behind the garage into 'falling into drinking", and threw in the 3rd guy, the one who landed in jail, for good measure.

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, MargeGunderson said:

Yeah, when I was at a small Southern nominally religious college, a friend asked for prayers for me at the weekly college Baptists meeting, because I had a part of a beer. The horror! I doubt Austin was really up to much.

Come hang with the Catholics, Marge.  We not only approve of drinking, we do it right up in the church!

[Panopticon]

7 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Eventually, while babysitting for some friends, Mary drank half a beer after the kids were asleep.  That's right, HALF A BEER!  The parents found out and you would've thought she;'d knocked over a liquor store and drank a fifth of vodka in the parking lot.  They immediately sent her to her grandparents in Buffalo (they lived in California) to teach her a lesson and get her back on the straight and narrow. 

...And after that when one of the kids made any sort of minor mistake they’d say “please don’t send me away like you did Mary.”
 

One of the most awful, most snarkable shows ever made. It’s been a while but I think one of the kids got married to someone s/he barely knew because that was the only way to have sex. I’m surprised there was never a plot about dry humping on the golf course. Or maybe there was?

[Temperance]

6 hours ago, OpieTaylor said:

I watched a video a couple of years ago of JB and Michelle talking to a church youth group of teens. JB was the one who said that Austin and the guy his sister is married to (who is some recognizable fundy’s son) and another youth fell into drinking and smoking for awhile. But 2 of them repented and the 3rd boy ended up in jail or maybe even prison. JB called Austin out by name.

Yes I watched the same video. Austin and his brother-in-law Bobby Ballinger were saved. They were drinking and smoking, but got saved. Their friends didn't get saved and had bad things happened to them. One of them went to jail or prison and another gauged his eye out with a screwdriver. (I never forgot that detail.) JB and Michelle were quick to point out bad things happened from people who weren't the right kind of Christians. 

The video was from early 2019. I gave a full synopsis on it at the time. It's still there!  That's the link. @GeeGolly will want to see it. 

[Zella]

He gouged HIS OWN eye out? WTF. I mean, not to sound like a weirdo, but I can get gouging out someone else's eye. But his own? 

[Temperance]

7 minutes ago, Zella said:

He gouged HIS OWN eye out? WTF. I mean, not to sound like a weirdo, but I can get gouging out someone else's eye. But his own? 

It was a terrible accident, although JB seemed to think it was an act of God. 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Temperance said:

It was a terrible accident, although JB seemed to think it was an act of God. 

Oh my. That's awful. 

[GeeGolly]

Thank you for the link @Temperance!

I listened to a few minutes. The part I heard didn't provide much in the way of details. Is there anything more about Austin other than around the 17 minute mark?

I didn't hear the part about someone gouging their eyeball out. I do have the volume on low because my husband is sleeping and I can't find my earbuds. JB is speaking softly and Michelle is loud. Did JB mention that during the same part?

Its a good thing they preach to the choir. The little I heard was so basic and black & white. In two minutes of the 3 hour video they summed up friendship and influence like a Sally, Dick and Jane book. Alcohol is bad. Friends who drink alcohol are bad. If you drink alcohol, God will break your heart. Don't be friends with folks who drink alcohol. Yet they never said the word alcohol.

And what did Michelle mean when she said, "God was breaking Austin's heart"?

I'll try and listen to some more tomorrow, but there's no way I can do three hours. If the part I listened to was the only part about Austin, we still don't know if Austin drank half a beer, drank once or twice, or spent months hanging with friends getting drunk all the time.

Not to minimize the sometimes tragic results of drinking... but If I compare the non-details of what JB said to what I know of real life teen/young adult drinking, it was likely much ado about nothing.

 

[floridamom]

These people don't seem to understand that you can have BOTH God and a cocktail.

[Tikichick]

3 hours ago, floridamom said:

These people don't seem to understand that you can have BOTH God and a cocktail.

So odd none of them has a Bible with the gospel of John, chapter 2 included.

[questionfear]

17 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Come hang with the Catholics, Marge.  We not only approve of drinking, we do it right up in the church!

So do the Jews! That's why I think all my non-Jewish friends are Catholic...we have the same key value about the importance of a good cocktail.

I think Austin's rebellion was probably being offered a sip of beer once...they were young and sheltered and he had strict parents-how much could he have possibly rebelled???

[Albanyguy]

12 hours ago, Panopticon said:

One of the most awful, most snarkable shows ever made. It’s been a while but I think one of the kids got married to someone s/he barely knew because that was the only way to have sex. I’m surprised there was never a plot about dry humping on the golf course. Or maybe there was?

We had a LOT of fun snarking on Seventh Heaven back in the old TWOP days. IIRC, the two oldest girls (including the "fallen" Mary) were practically pushed into marriage with a pair of brothers they scarcely knew. When one of the girls expressed reluctance, the other flashed her engagement ring and said "You like this guy, maybe you might even love him, so why don't you want to marry him?".  The youngest girl in the family found a parental-approved boyfriend, but instead of acting like a typical pre-teen boyfriend/girlfriend, they behaved as if they were now mated for life. Honestly, their names might as well have been Jill, Jessa and Jinger.

[Tikichick]

17 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Come hang with the Catholics, Marge.  We not only approve of drinking, we do it right up in the church!

 

1 minute ago, questionfear said:

So do the Jews! That's why I think all my non-Jewish friends are Catholic...we have the same key value about the importance of a good cocktail.

I think Austin's rebellion was probably being offered a sip of beer once...they were young and sheltered and he had strict parents-how much could he have possibly rebelled???

Eh hmm, we may seem like a dour bunch, but don't leave us Lutherans out of the party.   

"Whoever drinks beer, he is quick to sleep.  Whoever sleeps long does not sin.  Whoever does not sin enters Heaven!   Thus let us all drink beer!  ~      Martin Luther

[Heathen]

20 hours ago, doodlebug said:

In this crowd, where alcohol is demonized and followers try to prevent its legal sale in local stores, even having a couple of drinks is a big act of rebellion.  For most of us, born to parents who were known to have a drink or two on occasion or even get outright sauced; a couple of beers at a high school party would be par for the course.  Austin was raised in a far more conservative way than most of us and even a couple of drinks would be considered a huge violation of the standards.

I don't know if anyone here ever watched the really awful but snarkable show Seventh Heaven; but there was a plot on the show that demonstrates my point.  The show is about a conservative Christian minister and his wife; I don't think there was a specific denomination.  They had 5 kids, eventually 7, on the show.  The kids were raised in an incredibly sheltered hothouse environment on the show and behaved in ways that normal teenagers do not.  The second oldest was a girl named Mary (played by Jessica Biel, now Mrs Justin Timberlake).  Mary was the family rebel, always getting into trouble.  She was thrown off the girls' basketball team in high school because they TP'd the school gym after the coach cracked down on them for their grades (oh noes!!!).  Mary also had the audacity to date a kid who was a teen father and although he worked and went to school and supported his kid; he was clearly a terrible person for having had THE SEX and the parents hated him.  Eventually, while babysitting for some friends, Mary drank half a beer after the kids were asleep.  That's right, HALF A BEER!  The parents found out and you would've thought she;'d knocked over a liquor store and drank a fifth of vodka in the parking lot.  They immediately sent her to her grandparents in Buffalo (they lived in California) to teach her a lesson and get her back on the straight and narrow.  BTW,  she was a high school graduate and 18 years old when this occurred, but the parents still forced it to happen; going so far as to purchase the plane ticket and drive her to the airport just hours after discovering the transgression.  It was nuts, but I don't doubt the Duggars would react in similar fashion.

ETA: The reason why Mary was written off the show is because Jessica Biel did an interview complete with suggestive photos for Maxim and the producer felt she had insulted the show.  The star of the show, playing the minister, was Stephen Collins who some of you may remember was involved in a sex scandal involving abuse of a 14 year old girl. He remained on the show until the bitter end.

I watched that show on occasion. The scary thing is that in some ways, the Camdens (the minister's family) were almost progressive for fundies. Their oldest son, for instance, married a Jewish girl who was the daughter of a rabbi*. They had an interfaith wedding. Can you imagine being allowed in Duggar World? 

*The wedding episode was especially laughable. The bride looked a fair bit like Carlin Bates and even did that stupid open-mouthed, poor acting thing all during her walk down the aisle. 

[rue721]

51 minutes ago, questionfear said:

I think Austin's rebellion was probably being offered a sip of beer once...they were young and sheltered and he had strict parents-how much could he have possibly rebelled???

These people have such twisted values, who the hell knows. According to them, drinking a beer is appalling, but repeatedly sexually assaulting children “happens in most families.”

Austin could have been murdering puppies for shits and giggles while he was “rebelling,” but what would have shocked JB & Co is if he drank a shot afterwards, or skipped church that week to do it, and so that’s the part we’d hear about.

I think he could have gotten up to awful stuff or he could have been doing stuff considered perfectly normal or even healthy in the mainstream — or both, honestly. Just impossible to know.

The point is mostly that he did feel the need/desire to go “off script” and rebel, and then came back as the prodigal son. Who knows whether what he actually did when he went off the cult’s script was a big deal or not within a mainstream perspective, but it was apparently a big deal to him and within his little world. 

[GeeGolly]

I'm not sure Austin's rebellion was, or is, a big deal to them. Its just a Fundy tale that can be shared with other youth. It can scare them straight and/or offer them hope. If you drink you might end up in jail. If you do drink (or some other sin) and come back to God, all is good.

Kind of like, if you mow the lawn in a bikini you're likely to ruin a marriage or two. If you change your ways and cover yourself up, you might end up with 19 kids.

Edited February 18, 2021 by GeeGolly

[Joan of Argh]

10 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

If you mow the lawn in a bikini you're likely to ruin a marriage or two. If you change your ways and cover yourself up, you might end up with 19 kids.

I've wondered about that story...

Was Meechele really that 🔥HOT🔥???? 

Were marriages actually in peril?

Is she just pulling this nonsense out of her ass?

Edited February 19, 2021 by Joan of Argh

[DangerousMinds]

9 minutes ago, Joan of Argh said:

I've wondered about that story...

Was Meechele really that 🔥HOT🔥???? 

Were marriages actually in peril?

Is she just pulling this nonsense out of her ass?

No, no, and YES.

[emmawoodhouse]

Good old Mechelle Ruark Duggar folklore. She's got to self-flagellate to keep herself humble. Of course, anyone with half a brain knows she didn't cause that couple to divorce. And how did she, a teenager, know their business in the first place? So many holes in her yarn.

[Joan of Argh]

1 hour ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Good old Mechelle Ruark Duggar folklore. She's got to self-flagellate to keep herself humble. Of course, anyone with half a brain knows she didn't cause that couple to divorce. And how did she, a teenager, know their business in the first place? So many holes in her yarn.

Is there any possibility that Michelle was their babysitter and the dad was mowing her...lawn.... uhhhh......rug? 

[iwantcookies]

I’m hoping Austin will put a stop to the baby train by kid number 5. 

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Joan of Argh said:

I've wondered about that story...

Was Meechele really that 🔥HOT🔥???? 

Were marriages actually in peril?

Only in her mind.