Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

[louannems]

20 minutes ago, Marigold said:

I think Joy looks better with this pregnancy than with Gideon or am I remembering wrong?  Didn't she look kinda swollen and puffy?

Joy looks really nice in her pictures and has grown into a pretty young woman. She seems to be happy and peaceful.  

I don't know one thing about horses and being barefoot. From what you guys are saying, doesn't seem safe but it's probably just a photo shoot.  

You're not remembering wrong.  She was so puffy and so huge right away that there was all that speculation of a shot gun wedding!

[Zella]

36 minutes ago, Marigold said:

Joy looks really nice in her pictures and has grown into a pretty young woman. She seems to be happy and peaceful.  

I think Joy is one of the more naturally pretty sisters. 

[Marigold]

Joy might've been too young, inexperienced and had minimal medical care with Gideon's pregnancy to understand that you need to keep the weight down and eat healthy or there will be consequences. 

Joy looked miserable towards the end of the pregnancy and then a C-section? She obviously made some changes this time around. 

[Minivanessa]

Just now, Marigold said:

Joy might've been too young, inexperienced and had minimal medical care with Gideon's pregnancy to understand that you need to keep the weight down and eat healthy or there will be consequences. 

Joy looked miserable towards the end of the pregnancy and then a C-section? She obviously made some changes this time around. 

Gosh, you'd have thought that Mother Of The Year Michelle would have 'splained those things to Joy before/during Joy's first pregnancy. #bestmotherever #servantsheart #MOTY 

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Gosh, you'd have thought that Mother Of The Year Michelle would have 'splained those things to Joy before/during Joy's first pregnancy. #bestmotherever #servantsheart #MOTY 

MOTY, on hearing you say this: There's a Joy? 

[MamaMax]

6 hours ago, Barb23 said:

I'm hoping Joy saw a real OB/gyn since she is holding a sonogram.  Maybe, just maybe common sense sunk in after Giddyup's birth & she realized (or was seriously advised) she needs to see a professional OB/gyn & not Jill. 

I tried zooming in to see if that's really their baby. Can't read the text. With how far along she is, would the sono really be that clear? November.... Hmmm.. so what is she? between 8 and 12 weeks?  Could be, that sono photo is a prop, or from her pregnancy from Giddyup.

4 hours ago, Marigold said:

Joy might've been too young, inexperienced and had minimal medical care with Gideon's pregnancy to understand that you need to keep the weight down and eat healthy or there will be consequences. 

Joy looked miserable towards the end of the pregnancy and then a C-section? She obviously made some changes this time around. 

Eh, nothing to do with age necessarily. I was 29 with my first pregnancy and I was so freaked out/nervous/anxious, I ate ALL the fast food and was like the StaPuft marshmallow man by the 6th month. I did much better with my second, it wasn't as nerve wracking as the first. 

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, MamaMax said:

I tried zooming in to see if that's really their baby. Can't read the text. With how far along she is, would the sono really be that clear? November.... Hmmm.. so what is she? between 8 and 12 weeks?  Could be, that sono photo is a prop, or from her pregnancy from Giddyup.

Eh, nothing to do with age necessarily. I was 29 with my first pregnancy and I was so freaked out/nervous/anxious, I ate ALL the fast food and was like the StaPuft marshmallow man by the 6th month. I did much better with my second, it wasn't as nerve wracking as the first. 

I had a chocolate bar every day at lunch for a month. I gained 11lbs that month and the doctor was not happy. I didn't think I was over eating though. I tried to eat healthy, drink juice etc..... 

[yogi2014L]

4 hours ago, MamaMax said:

I tried zooming in to see if that's really their baby. Can't read the text. With how far along she is, would the sono really be that clear? November.... Hmmm.. so what is she? between 8 and 12 weeks?  Could be, that sono photo is a prop, or from her pregnancy from Giddyup.

Eh, nothing to do with age necessarily. I was 29 with my first pregnancy and I was so freaked out/nervous/anxious, I ate ALL the fast food and was like the StaPuft marshmallow man by the 6th month. I did much better with my second, it wasn't as nerve wracking as the first. 

Usually with the first AND her being young you show much later, one would think. I was 29 with my first and I just looked a chunkier than I normally do from weeks 17-28. It was actually quite aggravating because I looked out of shape and I wanted to look pregnant! LOL.

I didn't have a ' you look pregnant to strangers' bump until 28 weeks.

I don't think she was eating very healthy at all and was probably eating her feelings a little ( lots of life changes!! I don't blame her but I am glad she seems to be healthier this time. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by yogi2014L

[StaceyNotStacie]

8 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Gosh, you'd have thought that Mother Of The Year Michelle would have 'splained those things to Joy before/during Joy's first pregnancy. #bestmotherever #servantsheart #MOTY 

Wasn’t Joy in Jill’s jurisdictions?  She might have gotten all of her advice from Jill instead of Michelle. 

[Christina87]

13 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Jesus. Five of them pregnant at once? I can't help but feel sorry for Josiah and his wife during this time. She's getting over the miscarriage and is forced to be around giddy women who seem to get knocked up if they share a bar of soap with their husband. 

I agree...and Jana also, if kids are truly something she wants. 

[Christina87]

On 5/1/2019 at 4:09 PM, yogi2014L said:

Ugh, dumb dumb kids. Hopefully she actually gets competent care and goes to the hospital right away for labor this time. Jill needs to stay FAR AWAY from Joy. Their luck may run out if they go for another traumatic birth ending in C section. They are playing with fire.  I know I am asking too much that they actually learn from Jill's mistakes but maybe Austin did and will put his foot down.

If Joy didn't have the first c section and was married to someone else I think she could be the 'next MEchelle'. I feel like Austin will have no problem being celibate to stop procreating if they start to get out of control/ are instructed to wait/Joy has serious complications

Kendra on the other hand, gets my vote for next Mechelle. very young, fertile, uncomplicated vaginal birth, her and Joe are probably too stupid/brainwashed ( both?) to think beyond their cult beliefs.  

That's a really good point!!! One of the things I like about Austin is his common sense, and I agree that he would be celibate if he had to. People annoy me who are like, "I have ten kids by ten dads already, and I'm only 27, and I have sex with my boyfriend almost every night, but forgot to take the pill, and we can't get condoms until tomorrow...what am I going to dooo?! We're just going to hope it's not a fertile time, because...ya know...we're in love." I could see Austin being austere in the other direction, but I prefer people who can think things through rationally, delay their gratification, and occasionally go against their emotions better than people who are total slaves to their emotional state. It's sad, though, that birth control will never be an option for them so they don't have to abstain. I could see almost all of the other husbands coming around to it eventually, but not Austin. 

[Barb23]

14 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Jesus. Five of them pregnant at once? 

Does Citrus & Lemon sell maternity clothes? If not, maybe they should.  Look how many Duggar models they would have (minus Amy, don't think she would promote another clothing company.)

8 hours ago, MamaMax said:

I tried zooming in to see if that's really their baby. Can't read the text. With how far along she is, would the sono really be that clear? November.... Hmmm.. so what is she? between 8 and 12 weeks?  Could be, that sono photo is a prop, or from her pregnancy from Giddyup.

The Ob/gyn office where I worked years ago did a "verification" appointment for the first pregnancy visit. It was a short visit & included an internal sono checking to make sure there is a viable pregnancy & to check dates.  IIRC, we did it when the moms were about 6-10 weeks along.  I think this is what Joy had done & I'm guessing a November baby too.The visit where they do the exam, bloodwork & other testing came a few weeks after the verification visit.   Maybe @doodlebug could give us some input. 

EtA:  I originally typed Jill instead of Joy.  Possible premonition??

Edited May 3, 2019 by Barb23

[galaxychaser]

Since Austin actually works I doubt they would have 10 kids. 5-6 would be my guess. 

The only couple I see using birth control is Jeremy and Ginger.  I see them with 4 kids tops.

[3 is enough]

Austin only has one sister.  It is not out of the question that he would want a smaller family.  He also seems to be smart enough to realize that he could not support a boatload of children on what he earns flipping houses.  

[Christina87]

4 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

Austin only has one sister.  It is not out of the question that he would want a smaller family.  He also seems to be smart enough to realize that he could not support a boatload of children on what he earns flipping houses.  

This is what I'm really hoping. Plus, we all know Joy is completely brainwashed, and will do whatever she is told, with nary an opinion either way. I really don't think he will do birth control, though. 

As for birth control, Jinger and Jeremy, definitely. 

One day, when the show is loooong past, I could see Jessa basically demanding it, and Ben going along. 

Derick seems like a cold fish to me, but I could see him insisting on condoms, maybe when the boys are older, they have more time and less stress, and he and Jill are at a better place in their marriage (hopefully). 

Joe and Kendra will never get on birth control, and will have 35 babies. JB will do everything he can to support them because they will be keeping his brand alive. 

Josh and Anna will never use it, and we all know the dynamic there. 

Josiah and Lauren won't need it. 

JB and Abbie, I'm not sure about, but at least they can't have 20 kids because of their ages. I think they'll also do what they have to to space them out, because they seem to have some iota of common sense. 

I can see jana truly being against it, but by the time she marries, she probably will realistically have under 10, probably under 5. 

[FizzyPuff]

You know I’ll never understand why Derek didn’t use condoms the first year of his and Jill’s marriage. He wasn’t raised like the Duggars so as far as we no he isn’t against contraception he doesn’t think it’s evil or anything. I remember when Jill found out she was pregnant and he said something like we weren’t trying but we weren’t not trying, proper dumbo that one.

[Caracoa1]

Derrick may not have been trying... but Jill was!

[yogi2014L]

1 hour ago, Puffin said:

 I remember when Jill found out she was pregnant and he said something like we weren’t trying but we weren’t not trying, proper dumbo that one.

I HATE it when people say ' Oh we weren't trying' but then you come to find out they weren't on contraception . Or I was ' on the pill' but I would forget to take the pill every day. Then you AREN"T ON THE PILL! 

My own sister, happily married with 2 prior pregnancies ( and had successfully used BC for years and years), was dismayed she got pregnant with her third baby ' so quickly' . She said she wasn't trying and they were going to ' wait' until after a certain wedding. I asked her if she was on any BC and She said NO!I laughed and said what did you think would happen FFS?? 

ANYWAY, It is my opinion if you aren't actively preventing, you are trying to get pregnant. Drives me absolutely insane.

So Derick, you were trying. Idiot. lol

[doodlebug]

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 10:15 AM, Barb23 said:

I'm hoping Joy saw a real OB/gyn since she is holding a sonogram.  Maybe, just maybe common sense sunk in after Giddyup's birth & she realized (or was seriously advised) she needs to see a professional OB/gyn & not Jill. 

When the Duggars have babies, they get social ultrasounds at boutique facilities, so it doesn't mean Joy is actually seeing a qualified medical practitioner at all. Those facilities perform ultrasound for entertainment, with the big moment being the gender reveal.  They don't take measurements, survey the baby's anatomy, the pictures are not reviewed by a medical practitioner experienced in ultrasound interpretation.  So, the fact that Joy is holding a strip of ultrasound pictures, actually a strip containing 3 copies of the exact same image of the baby's profile, doesn't mean anything.  That's exactly the sort of souvenir one gets from a social ultrasound which is sort of a modern day version of the old photo booth at the carnival.

[doodlebug]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 12:40 AM, Barb23 said:

Does Citrus & Lemon sell maternity clothes? If not, maybe they should.  Look how many Duggar models they would have (minus Amy, don't think she would promote another clothing company.)

The Ob/gyn office where I worked years ago did a "verification" appointment for the first pregnancy visit. It was a short visit & included an internal sono checking to make sure there is a viable pregnancy & to check dates.  IIRC, we did it when the moms were about 6-10 weeks along.  I think this is what Joy had done & I'm guessing a November baby too.The visit where they do the exam, bloodwork & other testing came a few weeks after the verification visit.   Maybe @doodlebug could give us some input. 

EtA:  I originally typed Jill instead of Joy.  Possible premonition??

The picture Joy is holding is not of a 6-8 week fetus.  It is second trimester most likely.  The only way that works with a November due date is if she conceived the end of January and is due the first of November or so, in which case, she would be 13-14 weeks currently.  There are no gestational measurements on the picture, it is a keepsake-type photo, not a medical testing type one.  

[doodlebug]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 9:07 PM, yogi2014L said:

I HATE it when people say ' Oh we weren't trying' but then you come to find out they weren't on contraception . Or I was ' on the pill' but I would forget to take the pill every day. Then you AREN"T ON THE PILL! 

I hear this every day and it makes me crazy!  'Was this a planned pregnancy?' 'Oh no, it just happened'  'What were you using for birth control?'  'Oh, we don't use birth control'.

If you don't use birth control and you are young and probably fertile, you can plan on getting pregnant, no matter what sort of delusions you feed yourself.

[Snow Fairy]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

The picture Joy is holding is not of a 6-8 week fetus.  It is second trimester most likely.  The only way that works with a November due date is if she conceived the end of January and is due the first of November or so, in which case, she would be 13-14 weeks currently.  There are no gestational measurements on the picture, it is a keepsake-type photo, not a medical testing type one.  

I think it's not the ultrasound photo of this baby. Maybe Gideon, or just a prop

[Caracoa1]

Now that Joy has had an emergency C-section, will any credible certified midwife even attempt an at home VBAC?

[Absolom]

3 minutes ago, Caracoa1 said:

Now that Joy has had an emergency C-section, will any credible certified midwife even attempt an at home VBAC?

Not one who is licensed in the state of Arkansas and who wants to keep her license. 

[JoanArc]

4 minutes ago, Caracoa1 said:

Now that Joy has had an emergency C-section, will any credible certified midwife even attempt an at home VBAC?

*Jill Dillard Salutes*

[galaxychaser]

Jill and Michelle will try a home birth trust that. Simple Joy will listen to mama.

[PradaKitty]

Austin won’t though. 

[Temperance]

I'm not sure TLC will either. If the producers/executives at TLC have any brains, they won't let Joy appear on television attempting a VBAC homebirth.  Not when it's clear she can't have any licensed personnel attending her.  Not when it's not medically avisable. Not when the chance of something going wrong is so huge.  I think there's too much liability.

We've speculated that Jill and Derick ran into this mess and it may have been a contributing factor to them leaving TLC. (Yes TLC didn't announce Derick was off the show until after the Jazz, but we're not sure when they left officially and it's possible they left earlier. Then Derick was mad Jazz was still on TLC, but he wasn't.) 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Temperance

[heckkitty]

On 5/1/2019 at 1:23 PM, truebluesmoky said:

My kids are 21 months apart, and it’s great in many ways. It felt like we had all the hard parts together and now we are having an easier phase (they’re now 11 and 9). I liked getting all the diapers and breastfeeding and hard nights and child proofing done all at once, but it was insane enough that it made me completely sure I was done after those two! I can’t imagine continuing at that rate!

Mine are too (& the same age as yours!) & I also couldn’t imagine having any more. Of course mine were both c-sections & I was like eleventy billion years old; Joy would likely recover more easily and have the energy it takes to have them that close together. 

[dargosmydaddy]

[sleepysuzy]

I hope that, if Joy is trying for a VBAC, she finds a supportive provider in a hospital. I had an unplanned csection for my first,  followed by a vbac 22 months later, them two more vbac births with intervals of 26 and 18 months. Recovery and taking care of babies and young children was easier without also dealing with surgical recovery for myself. 

I wonder what kind of obstetric model the hospitals there use. My hospital switched to a midwifery model before my second pregnancy, and midwives handle all non-surgical births, even for vbac deliveries, and they helped me deliver my last two, who were both face up and had some dystocia due to positioning and size (11 lbs and 10 lbs 10 oz, respectively). Today is my youngest birthday, so those midwives and that birth is on my mind. 

[yogi2014L]

1 hour ago, sleepysuzy said:

I hope that, if Joy is trying for a VBAC, she finds a supportive provider in a hospital. I had an unplanned csection for my first,  followed by a vbac 22 months later, them two more vbac births with intervals of 26 and 18 months. Recovery and taking care of babies and young children was easier without also dealing with surgical recovery for myself. 

I wonder what kind of obstetric model the hospitals there use. My hospital switched to a midwifery model before my second pregnancy, and midwives handle all non-surgical births, even for vbac deliveries, and they helped me deliver my last two, who were both face up and had some dystocia due to positioning and size (11 lbs and 10 lbs 10 oz, respectively). Today is my youngest birthday, so those midwives and that birth is on my mind. 

You had some duggar sized babies!!!

Jill was another level of stupid when she tried with Sam, and I hope that stupidity stops there.  Perhaps Kendra will be a good influence on Joy. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by yogi2014L

[Sew Sumi]

As @Absolom noted above, Joy CAN'T have a VBAC at home with a licensed midwife. The state forbids it. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Sew Sumi

[yogi2014L]

2 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

As @Absolom noted above, Joy CAN'T have a VBAC at home with a licensed midwife. The state forbids it. 

Have any of the Duggar girls used a licensed midwife at home anyway? If they want to VBAC at home they'll just use JillymUffin or Jana. Or who is the Fedosky lady? 

I certainly hope they don't try to VBAC at home but if they decide to go for it I doubt the states prohibitors will stop them sadly. 

[Sew Sumi]

Oh, they could certainly try to use Dr. Jill or the Fedosky woman (whom it is speculated Jessa used, especially given Mechelle's 911 call that a midwife would typically make). That would be beyond foolhardy. Hopefully, she's at least using a CNM attached to the nearest hospital. I want to think at least Austin learned something from Joy's botched homebirth attempt.

[awaken]

Garrett and Gideon look so different from each other!

[JoanArc]

Joy could give birth in a state where VBAC is legal at home. Are there any near them?

[Minivanessa]

34 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

Joy could give birth in a state where VBAC is legal at home. Are there any near them?

I don't think it's illegal for Joy to have a VBAC at home in Arkansas. There are some laws and rules in place concerning the licensed professionals or paraprofessionals who could attend such a birth, but a home VBAC itself isn't illegal.

[JoanArc]

26 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

I don't think it's illegal for Joy to have a VBAC at home in Arkansas. There are some laws and rules in place concerning the licensed professionals or paraprofessionals who could attend such a birth, but a home VBAC itself isn't illegal.

Good point. I just didn't know if she could be attended in another state.

[ginger90]

From a 2011 article:

Only FOUR states do not allow VBAC by licensed midwives at home:
Alaska (1999), Arizona (1977), Arkansas (1983), and South Carolina (1976/2004)

States that do allow it, have conditions that must be met. One is, a hospital has to be within 30miles.

https://azdhs.gov/documents/licensing/special/midwives/committees/mspac/additional-resources/vbac-summary-other-states.pdf

[Barb23]

11 hours ago, awaken said:

Garrett and Gideon look so different from each other!

I still laugh at Garrett having the Duggar men hairline already. Of all the things to pass down to a child, he had to end up with the receding hair. Hopefully it is just a coincidence & more hair will grow in.

Re:  Joy & possible VBAC.  I understand there are 2 incisions made when a Csection is done.  One to cut through the skin to get to the uterus & the other to cut into the uterus.  I think the first one is usually done horizontally & the inside cut, vertically. My son was born by an emergency C section almost  30 years ago & because it was an emergency & his heart rate was rapidly dropping, my first cut was done vertically to get in quicker.  My OB told me any future births would have to be done by C section because of this.  I wonder if this still holds true, 30 years later & was Joy advised she couldn't have  VBAC because of how she was cut with Giddyup's C-section. I hope I have this right & hoping @doodlebug will shed more light on how C-section incisions are done.

[doodlebug]

22 minutes ago, Barb23 said:

I still laugh at Garrett having the Duggar men hairline already. Of all the things to pass down to a child, he had to end up with the receding hair. Hopefully it is just a coincidence & more hair will grow in.

Re:  Joy & possible VBAC.  I understand there are 2 incisions made when a Csection is done.  One to cut through the skin to get to the uterus & the other to cut into the uterus.  I think the first one is usually done horizontally & the inside cut, vertically. My son was born by an emergency C section almost  30 years ago & because it was an emergency & his heart rate was rapidly dropping, my first cut was done vertically to get in quicker.  My OB told me any future births would have to be done by C section because of this.  I wonder if this still holds true, 30 years later & was Joy advised she couldn't have  VBAC because of how she was cut with Giddyup's C-section. I hope I have this right & hoping @doodlebug will shed more light on how C-section incisions are done.

Nowadays, virtually all cesareans are done with a transverse skin incision, AKA 'bikini cut'.  Back when I was a resident, 35 plus years ago, it was thought that a vertical skin incision was faster and so it was used in emergencies.  It's not and, also, patients quite frankly, wanted the less visible scar of a transverse cut.  We also discovered that transverse skin incisions are less painful, less likely to get hernias, so they're better in the long run.  The skin incision makes absolutely no difference in whether a woman can try to deliver vaginally with a future pregnancy.  It also is not an indication as to what sort of uterine incision was made.

The cut on the uterus is virtually always low transverse, meaning side to side just above the cervix which is the thinnest part of the uterine wall.  Sometimes it needs to be extended into a T shape for a large baby, someone who has been in labor and the baby is wedged deep in the pelvis.  Sometimes we make a vertical incision in the uterus to deliver a very premature baby with less risk of trauma or a baby who is lying sideways in the womb rather than head or butt first.  Low transverse incisions heal the strongest and are less likely to tear open or rupture in subsequent pregnancies so they are preferred and, in general, women with vertical uterine wall, especially if it extends upwards into the thicker muscle of the uterus (sometimes called a classical incision), would be advised not to try to deliver vaginally because the risk of uterine rupture is too high.

Edited May 7, 2019 by doodlebug

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, ginger90 said:

From a 2011 article:

Only FOUR states do not allow VBAC by licensed midwives at home:
Alaska (1999), Arizona (1977), Arkansas (1983), and South Carolina (1976/2004)

States that do allow it, have conditions that must be met. One is, a hospital has to be within 30miles.

https://azdhs.gov/documents/licensing/special/midwives/committees/mspac/additional-resources/vbac-summary-other-states.pdf

One thing to remember is that, in most states where midwives are performing homebirths, those midwives are usually not CNM's (cerified nurse midwives) but direct entry midwives (certified professional midwives) and that there are quite a few states which don't recognize CPM's or license them.  So, in states where CPM's are not licensed, there is no law against them doing VBACs at home simply because the state doesn't recognize them as licensed practitioners.  31 states have licensure for CPM's while the other 17 do not, including Ohio, where I practice. 

So, while 4 states don't allow trial of labor (more accurate term since not all women who attempt to VBAC will do so successfully), there are another 17 which don't recognize CPM's at all.  So, it's more like 21 states where trial of labor is not supported in the homebirth setting.

22 hours ago, Caracoa1 said:

Now that Joy has had an emergency C-section, will any credible certified midwife even attempt an at home VBAC?

Was there a credible certified midwife involved in Joy's first birth?  I suspect there wasn't.  

Edited May 7, 2019 by doodlebug

[lulu69]

2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Was there a credible certified midwife involved in Joy's first birth?  I suspect there wasn't.  

Oh but silly Jilly is a credible certified midwife - Dreck knows bc he drove her to the test (eyes rolling into the back of my head).

Edited May 7, 2019 by lulu69

[doodlebug]

26 minutes ago, lulu69 said:

Oh but silly Jilly is a credible certified midwife - Dreck know bc he drove her to the test (eyes rolling into the back of my head).

Yes, but I believe someone checked it out and she has never had an actual license to practice in Arkansas.  Licensed practitioners have to follow the law.  If Jill attends births without a license to practice, she is not a certified professional midwife in the eyes of the state.  As long as she doesn't get paid for her services, she doesn't need a license.

[lulu69]

23 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Yes, but I believe someone checked it out and she has never had an actual license to practice in Arkansas.  Licensed practitioners have to follow the law.  If Jill attends births without a license to practice, she is not a certified professional midwife in the eyes of the state.  As long as she doesn't get paid for her services, she doesn't need a license.

But...but...Dreck drove her some place. That alone makes it legit lol. 

[Westiepeach]

4 minutes ago, lulu69 said:

But...but...Dreck drove her some place. That alone makes it legit lol. 

And...and...and... we all saw the printout of her "diploma!"

[Barb23]

3 hours ago, lulu69 said:

But...but...Dreck drove her some place. That alone makes it legit lol. 

2 hours ago, Westiepeach said:

And...and...and... we all saw the printout of her "diploma!"

Don't her bag of Dr things...

BTW @doodlebug, thanks for your explanation of C-section incisions.

[Sew Sumi]

6 hours ago, doodlebug said:

One thing to remember is that, in most states where midwives are performing homebirths, those midwives are usually not CNM's (cerified nurse midwives) but direct entry midwives (certified professional midwives) and that there are quite a few states which don't recognize CPM's or license them.  So, in states where CPM's are not licensed, there is no law against them doing VBACs at home simply because the state doesn't recognize them as licensed practitioners.  31 states have licensure for CPM's while the other 17 do not, including Ohio, where I practice. 

So, while 4 states don't allow trial of labor (more accurate term since not all women who attempt to VBAC will do so successfully), there are another 17 which don't recognize CPM's at all.  So, it's more like 21 states where trial of labor is not supported in the homebirth setting.

Was there a credible certified midwife involved in Joy's first birth?  I suspect there wasn't.  

Joy had a midwife present during  at least part of her home labor. Remember the blonde lady? We never did positively ID her by name that I can recall, but she wasn't a family member. Joy would have been very stupid to have an unlicensed midwife on camera, but these *are* the Duggars.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Sew Sumi

[lookeyloo]

Thanks @doodlebug. So interesting even though I am way past childbearing age.  Is it that anybody can attend a home birth as the delivery person, so to speak, if they are not licensed as long as they don't take money?  They can call themselves a midwife?  For anybody dumb enough to allow that?  As in Duggars?    My late ex husband was a doctor - cardiologist - and said he could perform brain surgery on anyone who was dumb enough to let him.  He did have a medical license...