S01.E08: Pilgrim Rick

[DearEvette]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Rebecca's family sounds like they suck too. Telling Randall to get out of the picture? DICK MOVE. Thank goodness Rebecca lost her temper and told them she and her family weren't coming to Thanksgiving. A six hour drive is way too much of an effort just to have a miserable time. Honestly, I think that if your relatives are more than two hours away, you are excused from making the trip.

I know right?  How many more indignities did Randall have to put up with in his own family?  damn. 

My husband and I were the last of all of our siblings to have kids so it as no big deal to travel to his mom's for Thanksgiving and Christmas, even when once in awhile other siblings would stay home and have their own holidays. My side of the family is so ginormous we weren't missed if we didn't make a trip yo visit them, but on his side it was just his mom and she'd make this huge deal out of Thanksgiving.  So we drive for four hours.    And even when we finally had kids and moved two hours closer we still schlepped to her house.  But it is damned difficult to get out the door with kids and all the gear for a two night stay and we live in the Northeast so sometimes we were driving in bad conditions.  Finally I put foot down and said no we'll go every other Thanksgiving but not Christmas at all.  She can come to us from now on.

[topanga]

9 hours ago, breezy424 said:

Kevin is growing on me more and more.  Olivia is cold but she apparently has a lot of baggage.  I'm kind of liking her.  And Kevin's growing relationship with her.  There seems to be a very sensitive person under the hard exterior.  I did laugh when she said to Randall that he must be the adopted one.  Yeah, it was a joke.  I also think her question to William about how does it feel to be dying was sincere.  However, she didn't expect the answer William gave her.  I'm glad she decided to not leave.

Me, too. Kevin is growing on me. Taking a trip into the shallow pool: Kevin is hella fine! I never thought he was cute before because he annoyed me so much. But that shot in the kitchen where you could see the outline of his muscular arms? And he wasn't wearing one of those clingy Under Armor shirts? Dear Lord. And when Randall woke him in the morning, did we get a shot of his underwear? Or maybe that was my vivid imagination. 

Olivia was annoying, but I'm glad that she actually has emotions in there somewhere. And once again, William was the wise, old owl. His heavy drug use and child abandonment are becoming footnotes in the life of this magical Negro with a heart of gold. 

I did like William's response when Randall asked him if he was okay. "Yeah, I'm fine. Just dying." 

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, photo fox said:

I see your point about Jack being too perfect, but I often wonder if we're really seeing objective reality. Or are we viewing events through the eyes of the Pearsons? Since Jack is dead, I can see why they'd remember only the best things about him. (I had the same thought at Randall's daughter's play, when nobody else seemed to see what he - and we - were seeing.)

This is a very good point. We know that Jack is the fun parent. But if we look underneath all of that, is that all he is? Rebecca does a fabulous job in actually raising the kids, cooking, cleaning, and who knows what else. All we've seen of Jack is that he shows up, plays with the kids, and tries to maintain a more upbeat personality for them. He has a good heart, he means well and he's there for them, but he's not without his flaws. Rebecca does all the harder work that's underappreciated and so far, we haven't had to see Jack discipline the kids so he gets off easy for the audience as they haven't had to see him be the "bad guy" in any situation yet. So while Jack may appear like a Gary Stu and perfect, he's not. And that's not even to say that Jack's a bad parent either! He's had to make his own tough choices for the kids too. 

I grew to really appreciate Rebecca in the flashbacks this episode. This is the first time I really felt like she was there for all three kids. I know that she is and she loves them all, but I was afraid that she might have been biased but this episode helped alleviate that worry. 

1 hour ago, Court said:

I agree that Annie and Tess are Miguel's grandkids. The fact, that to him it's a Thanksgiving tradition is exactly the issue for me. It matters what it is to the adult kids. He's ignoring the fact that it's a father/son tradition to the adult kids. It's a way they honor their father and can share a memory of him together. Miguel made it all about him and it isn't. There's a million other ways he can have fun with his grandkids.

I agree. I know that Miguel probably feels like an outsider even with being married to Rebecca. I can only imagine how he's been treated by the siblings over the years since they got together. I can't imagine it's easy seeing a man who had been best friends with their dad since they were little kids being with their mom. It's a different story when Rebecca gets remarried to a man that has been in the kids' lives since they were born. I'm sure Miguel's been trying to connect with them and it must hurt when they won't let him in on anything. Really, I feel for him in that regard.

That being said, my dislike for Miguel stems from the fact that all of his scenes have had him say or do shady things. Knowing what we know and watching the flashbacks, watching him flirt with other women, knowing that he actually has other kids that he seems to neglect now, makes it seem like he really isn't that good of a guy. Even if Miguel and Rebecca got together after Jack's death, it doesn't really matter to me because Miguel's attitude and whole personality has rubbed me the wrong way from the moment he talked about Rebecca's appearance in the bar to Jack. And he should never have stepped foot into the Pilgrim Rick tradition. He probably knows the entire story. He knows it's a family tradition, but more of the siblings' tradition. I know it's for the grandkids and he wanted to be part of the family tradition but it's not up to him whether he's let in on a sacred tradition like that. It's obviously the most important tradition for them. He's let in on the hike, on the movie, and on the other stuff. But the hat tradition? It's for Randall, Kevin, and Kate, which is clear. It's not fully for Tess/Annie. That obviously means a great deal to them because it was their dad's original tradition to make the kids feel at ease, to make them laugh that night. 

Like Jack said in the kitchen before they left on their road trip, they should make their own traditions. If Miguel wants to be part of the family so badly, he should try to make his own tradition, not overstep into one that clearly means a lot to Randall and Kevin (probably Kate too). Plus, did anyone else miss the child-like whine in his voice when he was asking Kevin to wear the hat? And then he really was pouting. Kevin was the good guy for letting him wear the hat. He really could have stuck to his guns there. Did you see how fast Miguel jumped up to take the hat, no hesitation? Miguel has no boundaries, almost as much as Olivia. 

Sorry, show. But if you want me to like Miguel, you're going to have to try really, really hard. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

1 hour ago, Biggie B said:

I am always a guest at my sister's for Thanksgiving, and I don't cook, but isn't it more helpful to prepare much of the feast (not the turkey, of course) in advance, or at least, prep the night before? Most people I know who are cooking for the big day bake their desserts a day or so before, and get many of the other dishes ready and refrigerated so that on Turkey Day itself, they are just putting on the finishing touches and then putting them in the oven. No? Randall being Randall, the perfectionist he is, he managed to get every single thing done that morning, but is that usual?

No, I don't think it's usual.  Yes, absolutely you make things ahead, unless your circumstances are such that you just can't.  I even make the turkey the day before (will do it later today) because we've not had that tradition of bringing it to the table, then carving (don't even know how people do that).  But Randall is so Type A that he is doing it in one fell swoop.  More power to him, but to me that would be unnecessarily stressful.  By the end of the episode, he is stressed to the max, poor guy.

Remember, Rebecca was making the cranberry sauce the morning of.  Since cranberry sauce needs to chill, it didn't really make sense, but I guess it would have warmed up on the long car ride anyway. However, she would have been less stressed if she had made it the night before. I don't know why she had it in a breakable glass serving dish.  It should have been in a Tupperware type container for transport, and I presume her mother had her own glass dish in which to serve it. (Actually, I do know why it was in glass-more drama.)

Edited November 23, 2016 by ItCouldBeWorse

[izabella]

37 minutes ago, SuzyLee said:

 I've watched the aftermath of gastric bypass surgery unfold four times in real life with friends and to say that it's not pretty is a major understatement. To be honest, I would qualify for the surgery, myself, and that's the main reason I haven't taken the plunge. It affects every single area of your life and if you don't follow the post-surgical rules regarding portion sizes to the letter, you'll pay for it in spades.

Since you have some real life experience, I hope you don't mind my asking some questions because I'm curious.  Are the reduced portion sizes required because the size of the stomach is changed?  Is that primarily how the surgery works?  And does that mean the surgery doesn't really do anything else to help weight loss except force the person to eat less?

[ShadowFacts]

45 minutes ago, topanga said:

And I agree with the poster (I can't find you, FSR) who said that Randall seemed a little manic. I agree, in the sense that his enthusiasm didn't allow him to react to any of the people around him. His own emotional state was all he could see. I'm not trying to diagnose Randall with bipolar disorder. Maybe he was just being child-like. But he did seem a little manic. 

That was me, and we've already been told he lost his sight for awhile during a stressful time, so there is something more than child-like going on, I think, but I guess it could be something less than a full-blown disorder.   It seems like if anything will trigger something, this will be it.

I forgot to mention earlier that I noted the similar attire of Rebecca in both Thanksgivings - a skirt and short boots.  I thought it was a nod to how some of us (maybe me) stick with the familiar. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, Biggie B said:

Who in their right mind would dress their kids up in uncomfortable dress clothing and then expect them to sit in the car like angels for a 6 hour drive!????

Yes; why not have them put on the sweaters right before they get out of the car?  I think that Kate's hand knitted sweater was a call back to the

knitted baby outfits that Grandma had made for the "Big Three." I guess she wasn't so thrilled that Randall got to wear one of them.

[kili]

Quote

I loved Randall’s enthusiasm for Thanksgiving and was kind of annoyed with Beth for insisting Rebecca tell him the truth right then and ruin his favorite holiday.

It wouldn't have ruined Randall's holiday if Rebecca hadn't dodged Beth's calls for three days. 

And I'm betting Randall would have taken it better if Rebecca had told him rather than having to find her letter in William's drawer. That's the thing about secrets - they don't always wait for the ideal time to reveal themselves. It's kind of like William's speech about catching moments - don't wait to catch them. Rebecca should have revealed that little secret years ago. There have been millions of moments. But she didn't. She thought she could carry the secret to her grave. Okay, odds were pretty good. But once William was living in the house, she should have realized that at some point it would come out. William kept the secret, but all Randall has to do is talk to one of William's friends or hear a death bed confession or clear out his apartment and he is bound to find something. Rebecca should have caught her moments in the last 6+ weeks. 

If Miguel wanted to be Pilgrim Rick, he should have asked before and not put Kevin on the spot. Way to wait until the last minute dude so Kevin doesn't even have time to process. Miguel has just been sitting around with his gout foot propped on a pillow. He could have made some phone calls too. And Miguel shouldn't even try to be Pilgrim Rick. Start your own traditions dude.

William needs to submit this episode for his Emmy consideration. 

Quote

 However, the fact that she maintained a written correspondence with him all those years changes everything.

It appears to have been more than just a written correspondence. Her letter states that she had seen him (he was looking better) and had to leave their last meeting early. It sounds like they met in person. And she knows he had gotten clean and sober. So, while I totally understand her need to bond and her need to keep Randall away from a drug addict, she could have relented a little later when conditions improved.

It was nice to see 8 year old Randall and Kevin did have some fun together. Kate's sweater was pretty ugly. 

Rebecca is involved in a car accident and all her mom can do is complain that she is late for dinner and remind her how hard she has worked. Wow. What a piece of work she must be.

[Ms Blue Jay]

All I can think is that Miguel killed Jack

Milo is disgustingly hot at this point, although he always was, even as a scrawny young man.

Kevin and Randall sharing the hat tradition was beautiful.  Especially because so many of us drew battle lines last week, this is a very interesting bridge across that.

Olivia ....  It reinforces this sick fantasy that hot bitchy women get love because men just want to "fix" them.  How many Nice Guys out there claim that women just go after jerks, and all the nice guys finish last?  This is kind of overromanticizing that trope which is really funny to me.  What is redeeming about Olivia besides her looks?  Shallow.  (Oh maybe her 'acting talent'.  Buh. Whatever. Actors are a dime a dozen in Kevin's line of work.)  The show does make me relate more and more to Kate, though.  Because as an overweight woman, I really fucking doubt that a super hot, fit man like Kevin would want to fix ME.  You have to look like Olivia to get away with that, I guess.  Then your horrendous attitude becomes "adorable" and "lovable."  (Though I personally would have run away from Toby and his 'issues' immediately.)   Maybe we're underestimating the show?  And the show is illustrating how Kevin is attracted to Olivia because his mother ignored him as well?  

Imagine a character who looks like Kate with the personality of Olivia.  Do you really think she could land a guy as hot as Kevin?  I think I've made it clear why this storyline bothers me.

I know that kid who plays Little Randall doesn't look like Sterling but I don't care this time.  I really adore that kid.  He's very precious.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[VioletNevermind]

20 minutes ago, izabella said:

Since you have some real life experience, I hope you don't mind my asking some questions because I'm curious.  Are the reduced portion sizes required because the size of the stomach is changed?  Is that primarily how the surgery works?  And does that mean the surgery doesn't really do anything else to help weight loss except force the person to eat less?

I don't mind at all.  Yes, (severely) reduced portion sizes are required because the stomach itself is much smaller.  There are a few different kinds of bariatric surgery, but the most common involves removing or tying off a significant portion of the stomach.  The whole point of the surgery is to feel fuller on less food and change the way the body absorbs calories.  The worst part of the surgery is something colloquially referred to as Dumping Syndrome.  This is something that the vast majority of gastric bypass patients will experience at least once no matter how strictly they follow the rules.  If you eat too fast or too much, especially in the beginning, the food enters the small intestine too quickly for it to process and you experience severe abdominal cramping, vomiting, diarrhea, sweating, and even fainting.  Your stomach/small intestine are basically rejecting the food.  It's so scary to witness someone going through this.  I was tempted to take a friend to the hospital the first time I witnessed it.  The worst part of it is that it can sneak up on you as many as three hours after you've eaten.  The decision to have gastric bypass surgery is a huge one, which is why most doctors require patients who request it to undergo counseling first and commit to losing some weight beforehand.  Many people are unprepared for the sweeping changes that they will be faced with post-surgery.  Food really does take a backseat after the surgery and balancing that with getting enough calories and avoiding anemia can be very tricky.  Kate/Chrissy have their work cut out for them if they do decide to go through with the surgery.  I'm half-dreading what we'll see on the show as it unfolds because I've seen it all before. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by SuzyLee

[DoubleUTeeEff]

Good for Kate for choosing something she really, really wanted over Toby.  I was surprised we didn't see him argue with her more over the break up considering the lengths he went to when she wanted to spend ONE EVENING by herself.  I suppose we will see more of that in the future if she doesn't move to New York.  I got the feeling that she had thought about gastric bypass surgery a lot but was scared to bite the bullet, much like the woman she was sitting next to on the plane who talked about her marriage and then made a decision to finally get a divorce.  If an overweight person bought two tickets for two seats and sat next to me, I would straight up thank them for being so considerate.  I mean, if they brought up the subject first like Kate did.  Otherwise I would keep my mouth shut.

Beth continues to be amazing.  She knew her husband well enough and is such a good mother that she sent her kids from the table to play in their room right before Randall confronted Rebecca.  I also was kind of annoyed at Randall for not even letting Rebecca respond, although it did sound like she was making excuses "You have to understand..." and something like "I was only.."  So now she has contentious relationships with all three of her children?  Randall is understandably pissed at her betrayal and Kevin seems to be trying really hard to get scraps of her love even though she shows little interest in him.  I don't think forgetting the name of his play is a big thing in and of itself but it seems to be representative.  Also, I can't see what her excuse could be for not going out and seeing The Manny.  I can't wait to see her interactions with Kate.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

5 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Also, I can't see what her excuse could be for not going out and seeing The Manny. 

Maybe she doesn't like to fly?  And once she hears about Kate's recent experience....

[lovelynn]

I really dislike Miguel. So until I'm shown otherwise, I am left to assume he doesn't warrant an invitation to his biological children's holiday celebrations. An old man pouting like a child is incredibly irksome, he doesn't deserve the Pilgrim hat.

As for the bypass surgery, I have a friend who underwent the surgery 10 years ago. She followed the presurgery eating plan so well that she lost enough weight that the surgeon advised against actually doing the bypass. She had the surgery anyway and quickly lost an incredible amount of weight. Ten years on she is opting to have the surgery again. Turns out that if you revert to your old bad eating habits your stomach will expand again. So unless Kate is willing to significantly change her lifestyle the surgery is really not going to be worth the risk. I will appreciate them showing the reality of what happens post-surgery if she goes through with it.

Bye Toby, I hope you stay gone.

[SunnyBeBe]

I was disappointed that the Thanksgiving episode would end up being my least favorite one so far. It had its moments, like William giving  words of wisdom on the front stoop, but, there were so many overly contrived scenes too.  The flashback to the morning of Thanksgiving with Rebecca stressing over making perfect cranberry sauce.  Please.  It just seemed very fake to me.  I just didn't buy it.  As suggested upthread by ItCouldBeWorse and others, a cranberry sauce made that morning and traveling in the car for house, would be juice.  And what mom of triplets at that age would be stressing about anything being PERFECT.  Just silly, imo.

I also didn't buy the kids reactions.  After the flat tire, they decide to walk and the kids groan.  Most kids would love to take off on an adventure.  And then though they are starving they turn their nose up at cheese and crackers.  What?  I don't think so.  I've never heard of that. I did enjoy the scene after Rick The Pilgrim showed up.

It's nice to see that Kevin is with a woman who matches his level of narcissism.  She's so full of herself.  I suppose we will see her evolve, along with Kevin.

I thought that comment about how senior Rebecca had forgotten something might be a prelude to her having dementia.  I pray they don't got there.  Dementia is a very complex and challenging condition.  If your aren't prepared to properly handle a character with that condition,, then I hope they don't go there.  So, far they are trying to handle obesity and cancer and are struggling.  I hope they pace themselves.  TV series often take on issues that they don't properly research and handle in a careless way, such as with diabetes and mental illness.  

I really do hurt for Randall. I can see how mom was cautious of William when he was using drugs, but, over the years, didn't he gain credit for his sobriety?  At some point, did she think it was safe to tell Randall?  And she should have known someone with Randall's skills and resources would find William anyway.  I suppose she'll get the chance to answer those questions. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by SunnyBeBe

[Ms Blue Jay]

12 hours ago, random chance said:

True, now it's always going to be the holiday where he learned his mom betrayed him, even if he forgives her. P.S. never choose a holiday as your wedding date, this has been a public service announcement.

Ha!!  My older brother chose Valentine's Day.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

3 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Maybe she doesn't like to fly?  And once she hears about Kate's recent experience....

Maybe.  It better be a real phobia though and not just something she doesn't like.  Ooh, what if Jack dies in a plane crash?

[SueB]

10 hours ago, breezy424 said:

I admit I'm on the fence about obesity.  I go between feeling sympathy and thoughts of how can you let yourself get this way.  I get torn.  I'm also a person who was overweight as a teenager (not nearly as much as Kate) but I lost the weight.  And kept it off the rest of my life (OK, I did have pregnancy weight but I successfully dealt with it afterwards).  I get it but I don't get it.  I could write a whole essay but I'll refrain. 

1

To be blunt, please do refrain.  Congratulations for overcoming your own overweight issues, for people like me who have had a life long struggle with weight loss, the phrase "how can you let yourself get this way" is exceptionally damaging emotionally.  It's a far more complex issue than perhaps your wording implies.  If the forum wants to allow fat shaming, then I'll just mute those who engage. But if we avoid it, I'd appreciate it. 

1 hour ago, Biggie B said:

Who in their right mind would dress their kids up in uncomfortable dress clothing and then expect them to sit in the car like angels for a 6 hour drive!???? The logistics of that seemed insane: driving 6 hours on Thanksgiving day to dinner - and then what, driving home that same night? Perhaps they were going to stay overnight and we, the viewers, didn't see their luggage, as it was left behind in their disabled car? Still, wouldn't it have been more logical to drive to Rebecca's parents the night before? Of course, this all needed to happen as it did so as to set up the entire episode - the origins of their Thanksgiving traditions.

1

I think that is yet another sign of the strain of Rebecca and her mother.  This was definitely something you did in the 60's and 70's.  In the 80's, it would have been old fashioned.  So I took that as another hint that Rebecca regresses when dealing with her mother.  The "high voice" line was perfect.  I love that their kids feel comfortable enough to say that. And "just the twins?"  Oh Grandma (Rebecca's Mom), I don't know if you will EVER dig out of that hole that statement has put you in.  How very horrible of you to make that distinction.

 

I freakin' loved this episode.  Randal was PERFECT in the morning with his Thanksgiving joy.  And Jack really achieved legendary status with the "Pilgrim Rick" impromptu plan.  I sometimes wonder if part of his "perfectness" in these flashbacks is that these flashbacks are filtered through the lens of those who loved him.  We've seen non-kids flashbacks with Miguel so perhaps not.  But honestly, we rarely remember the dead in a super negative way.  Our overwhelming love/fondness shades everything.

Miguel ... the actor is doing an EXCELLENT job of making me REALLY disliking him.  Asking, on the day, and in that way... 8 kinds of wrong.  I get him wanting to be close to the grandkids but he was tone deaf.  And maybe that's part of why the Big 3 don't like him.  No way does Kate like him -- she was a Daddy's girl.  

Olivia ... I LOVED how William cut through her bullshit in with one sentence about acting "cool".  He's got your number missy.  "Your family is amazing!" was simultaneously blunt, wrong, and oh so right.  I laughed out loud at that one.  I LIKE how Kevin keeps defying her expectations.  She has had such a stuck up attitude and William basically told her that was all bullshit.  I think she DID ask about him dying for "research" but she got handed a fistful of reality.  I'm glad she was open enough to listen.  

William's speech was perfect.  I understand the "wise owl" concern, but he actually made a mistake last week (telling Beth ... BTW "you can't cancer your way out of this old man" remains one of my FAVORITE lines).  And his description of the experience of turning old and approaching his mortality? F*cking brilliant.  That was some hellagood writing right there.  And well delivered.  I want that actor nominated for an Emmy along with SKB.  Honestly ALL THE AWARDS to this show IMO.  I'm just so impressed with everyone.

Kudos to those who mentioned Rebecca acting subdued these days.  I think whatever happened with Jack's death and marriage to Miguel somehow broke her.  She's never recovered that spark she had.  There's so much more to see here.

@memememe76 said:

Quote

Maybe Kate can become Randall's new assistant, to replace the one who says "like" too much. I bet Kates know what Randall's job entails. 

Noooooooooooooo!  But of course that's where this will go.  But that just means that now Randall will take Kate away from Kevin.  Noooooooooooo! He won't mean to. It'll be wonderful for her/Randall. But Kevin will act out over this, even being a 36 year old man.

Finally.. 

@breezy424 said:

Quote

 On a shallow note, congrats to all of us who concluded that  Randall lives in New Jersey.  I still am trying to figure out where he lives given that it was supposed to be about an hour drive to Phillie.   Being a person who has lived in an area most of their life, these details are 'important'.  :)

 

I OCD'd the hell out of this topic in this post: 

[Big Mother]

I had a feeling, once Randall went to William's house, that he would find some incriminating evidence.

I couldn't love Jack any  more.

I loved this episode. Finding out the reasons behind their traditions was so fascinating and fun.

I understand why Randall was so upset. I wanted to cry with him.

Rebecca should've said, "I'm so sorry, Randall,." before launching into "you have to understand..." In general I don't really like 60 yr old REbecca. She's not the same sweet woman as young REbecca.

SO HAPPY KATE DECIDED TO DO THE SURGERY. Terrible timing of the announcement lol.

This show is my new Brothers and Sisters. :D

[Ms Blue Jay]

12 hours ago, Randomosity said:

Not that she couldn't be nicer in general, but I read that line as deadpan humor, not rudeness.

Then I'm definitely missing the punchline.  Oh, because he's black, he's obviously adopted?  It's rude, in my opinion, to make that kind of "joke"; doubly when you're a guest at that person's house.

[DearEvette]

5 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

It reinforces this sick fantasy that hot bitchy women get love because men just want to "fix" them.  How many Nice Guys out there claim that women go after jerks, and nice guys finish last?  This is kind of overromanticizing that trope which is really funny to me.  What is redeeming about Olivia besides her looks?  Shallow.

Or hot, bitchy women get over just because they are hot. 

I just can't with the scene of her and William.  I hated him being all Wise old owl with this rude woman who was seemingly mining his pain and experience for her art.  Cuz, really that is what it felt like.  She's a ghoul who goes to funerals to see how people grieve to help her with her acting.  And now she is doing the same with William.  just ugh.

Anyway I did love Rebecca's sour look at her when she called Randall the adopted one.  She had unwittingly hit upon a sore spot with Rebecca there. 

[MaiSoCalled]

I dislike Miguel, but I had the impression that this was not the first year he's talked about the hat. Maybe the grandchildren have requested be play the pilgrim or maybe Rebecca has mentioned it. I could even see Miguel being a part of a Thanksgiving celebration with Jack. He might want to honor his friend too. I was surprised and disappointed when Kevin let Miguel wear the hat, but I think it's because this is the first year that we've seen it. I'm not invested in Miguel's story yet. I still want to know about the Big 3 and their traditions. If this was season 3, I think I'd be happy to see Miguel get the hat.

I think we were meant to see Olivia as blunt, rather than rude. I still don't love her - I thought her entire pie story was a lie, just another part she was playing. 

[izabella]

8 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I thought that comment about how senior Rebecca had forgotten something might be a prelude to her having dementia.  I pray they don't got there.  Dementia is a very complex and challenging condition.  If your aren't prepared to properly handle a character with that condition,, then I hope they don't go there.  So, far they are trying to handle obesity and cancer and are struggling.  I hope they pace themselves.  TV series often take on issues that they don't properly research and handle in a careless way, such as with diabetes and mental illness.  

I go with Occam's Razor on this stuff - the simplest explanation is usually correct.  So in this case, I'm putting Rebecca in the same category as everyone else who didn't go to see Kevin record The Manny, and who aren't interested in his play or the name of it.  We've seen Rebecca overlook Kevin and favor Randall, so it makes perfect and simple sense to me that she can remember Randall's assistant's name but not the name of Kevin's play no matter how many times he told her.  I think all they're dong is trying to show that Rebecca still favors Randall, and that's all.

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Then I'm definitely missing the punchline.  Oh, because he's black, he's obviously adopted?  It's rude, in my opinion, to make that kind of "joke"; doubly when you're a guest at that person's house.

You see, that was the only line I didn't mind from Olivia. She knew Randall was adopted because of Kevin, so I think it was her attempt at a joke, whether or not it was funny. The line I got myself worked over was "How does it feel dying" to William. To also be blunt, that's incredibly rude to ask someone who you don't know. What if William reacted differently? She's lucky he didn't snap at her for asking such a heinous question to a dying man. 

I guess that I have concluded that at the moment, I only really like the characters with the last name Pearson. I am really annoyed by William doing no wrong so far. I hope Randall rips into him next for lying. I get his anger with Rebecca, but I'm hoping for a similar scene with William. Dying or not, he lied too. 

If anyone's a Gary Stu on this show, it seems to be William. But even so, I don't think anyone's perfect on this show. It just seems like everyone loves William, and William can do no wrong so far. 

[SueB]

1 minute ago, izabella said:

I go with Occam's Razor on this stuff - the simplest explanation is usually correct.  So in this case, I'm putting Rebecca in the same category as everyone else who didn't go to see Kevin record The Manny, and who aren't interested in his play or the name of it.  We've seen Rebecca overlook Kevin and favor Randall, so it makes perfect and simple sense to me that she can remember Randall's assistant's name but not the name of Kevin's play no matter how many times he told her.  I think all they're dong is trying to show that Rebecca still favors Randall, and that's all.

 

Me too.  Even when they had the best Thanksgiving ever and Kevin was in the middle of the bed, he was next to each child and not a parent.  I'm actually surprised I'm as moved by this as I am.  But Kevin's suffering from unintentional isolation from his parents really strikes a cord in me.  I didn't have that as a child but it brings out all the feels for some reason.  

[DrSpaceman73]

3 hours ago, photo fox said:

Who was making fun of his name? I missed it. 

Gary Stu.

I see your point about Jack being too perfect, but I often wonder if we're really seeing objective reality. Or are we viewing events through the eyes of the Pearsons? Since Jack is dead, I can see why they'd remember only the best things about him. (I had the same thought at Randall's daughter's play, when nobody else seemed to see what he - and we - were seeing.)

I do think this skews the older scenes.  I view them not as actually what happened but how they view what happened.  With Jack its their memories of him, not a historical biography of the times, not always the same thing

This often came into play with How I Met Your Mother as well.  It really Ted telling the story 20 years later, so its a skewed view of everything from his perspective.  And since they frequently did episodes where they tell stories from each person's different perspective, you can assume how he viewed or remembered things would not always line up with how everyone else did. 

Not we are not really clear on this show whose perspective is given in the flashbacks.  Certainly seems to be the kids primarily, but it can't be just them since some of the scenes they are not even in.  But I suspect it does skew the view of Jack being shown as more perfect and with less flaws. 

In fact now that I think about the two shows, its almost the same premise between the two.  Ted is telling the story of how he met the love of his life but she died and he ended up marrying someone else, a friend they all knew.  Here its the story more from the kids perspective of the same things happening, except the dad dies and the mom remarries a friend later in life. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

This is pure speculation by me, but I think the Rebecca not knowing about Kevin's play stuff was really heavy-handed.  Is Rebecca so biased towards Randall that any kind of thing Kevin does is seen as needy attention-grabbing, and Rebecca kind of resents it and doesn't like it? And therefore, kind of ignores it? I have mother issues myself, so I am just thinking out loud.  The way some parents act, it is almost laughable 1) how different they treat their kids and 2) how insensitive they can be when a kid or even adult kid really wants approval or validation.  I'm not being judgemental because I don't have children myself, just that I've seen it.  Just as a tiny example, the way my father talks to my brother about his work versus mine.  Some parents see some work as more important than others and don't care how it comes off. 

[bybrandy]

I thought it was Randall not Rebecca who had never been to a taping of the Manny.  

My mom drove a company car and her company was small and headquartered out of state.  So every year she drove the car to the company headquarters and had the registration/inspection done there.  I'm sure there was a way to register it in the state we lived in, but that's how she did it.   So every summer we road tripped to Louisiana in the middle of the summer.  And every year before we left she'd go to the store and buy tapes for our trip.  Graceland was one of those trip tapes and that year driving to and from Lousiana?  we heard that tape so many times.   I laughed so hard every time it popped up because that was SO my childhood!

Honestly, I was watching with my mom and singing along and she was like, "you know that song?"  And I was all like OMG!!!!  It was your favorite tape you crazy person.

Toby's clearly going to be back.  He's an actor on the show.  

My mom worked.  She did all of Thanksgiving on Thanksgiving.   It is a more hectic way of doing things but it is doable especially if you wake up early Randall style.

My favorite little moment was Randall jumping on Kevin's bed.  He was so cheery with the rest of the family but he was so cherry and brother with Kevin.  It cracked me up.   

When I saw the moment with Jack and the kids and it turned around a really miserable day, it just felt like such a big moment, such a Jack moment that it is something that isn't for Miguel.   ZBut the other traditions?  I think some of those probably could be adapted/changed to fit in with the new family.  Although, I like that Randall saw the importance of William's traditions and went for the tapes.  That felt like him caring about what other people needed.. just not Miguel... and quite frankly.. I think Miguel needed to find a new place to make himself felt.  Because the hat that was something special for those kids with Jack.

[buckboard]

I can't wait for the backstory on why the kids seem to hate their father's best friend, what happened to Miguel's wife and kids and how Jack's death figures into this whole story.  Lots left to be told. 

But until I learn what Miguel did that causes so much dislike - from the boys and on this board -  I'm wondering what he did that lets them treat him like an outsider and not like someone who has known them their entire lives.  Sort of like the way Rebecca's parents treated Randall.  He's there, but not a legitimate part of the family. The twins and Randall.  The Pearsons and Miguel.

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

This is pure speculation by me, but I think the Rebecca not knowing about Kevin's play stuff was really heavy-handed.  Is Rebecca so biased towards Randall that any kind of thing Kevin does is seen as needy attention-grabbing, and Rebecca kind of resents it and doesn't like it? And therefore, kind of ignores it? I have mother issues myself, so I am just thinking out loud.  The way some parents act, it is almost laughable 1) how different they treat their kids and 2) how insensitive they can be when a kid or even adult kid really wants approval or validation.  I'm not being judgemental because I don't have children myself, just that I've seen it.  Just as a tiny example, the way my father talks to my brother about his work versus mine.  Some parents see some work as more important than others and don't care how it comes off. 

I'm usually critical of Rebecca's relationship with Kevin, but in this instance, I think she was distracted by the fact that she would have to damage her relationship with Randall to tell him the truth about William. I do think her mind was elsewhere the entire Thanksgiving because of it. Plus, she is supposed to be in her late 60s. It sucks that she seems to remember more of Randall's life events and people in his life and not Kevin's, but this is a case where I don't blame Rebecca.

Although I can say that this could add to the little things about Rebecca's relationship with Kevin. He's still trying to get her attention and it seems like she still isn't biting. It definitely still fits the pattern that has been shown with Rebecca and Kevin. 

[Jx223]

39 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 

I thought that comment about how senior Rebecca had forgotten something might be a prelude to her having dementia.  I pray they don't got there.  Dementia is a very complex and challenging condition.  If your aren't prepared to properly handle a character with that condition,, then I hope they don't go there.  So, far they are trying to handle obesity and cancer and are struggling.  I hope they pace themselves.  TV series often take on issues that they don't properly research and handle in a careless way, such as with diabetes and mental illness.  

 

 

I don't know if they will end up giving Rebecca dementia but there could be something going on with her that is affecting/distracting her. When Kevin was asking how could she forget the name of his play she started to explain herself to him but was interrupted by Annie. I am curious as to what she was going to say to him.

She may have given him some type of excuse or maybe something else is worrying/distracting her. At the very least she is worried about her secret involving William. She could have other problems as well.

Maybe it's some type of health issue for her or Miguel. Or maybe she's having financial trouble and it's worrying her.

[CarolMK]

I read that Chrissy Metz said she would never consider gastric bypass surgery, even though her character has announced she plans to do it. I"m hoping that the show doesn't make a big deal about how Kate succeeds or fails in her weight loss. If she doesn't succeed, she'll be devasted. I'd much rather see her focus on something else, like her career or relationship with her family.

I'm really irritated with Rebecca for not telling Randall about his father. Can't imagine keeping that secret all those years. He probably should have been told when he was a child, even if William wasn't around at the time, she should have told him the whole story. Randall would have probably wanted to meet him by the time he was a teenager. 

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, topanga said:

I agree with everyone who said Miguel needs to take two seats. Him and his bad make-up job. 

My favorite comment so far LOL

Someone upthread mentioned Kevin and Olivia being intimate because they had sex. Kevin and the widow were intimate. Kevin and Olivia were ... screwing.

I really dislike Olivia and when William said Kevin adores her I emitted an anguished cry.

I am with those who said NO to Miguel wearing the hat. Did this mofo even say he should get to wear it? Ugh! 

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

 So now she has contentious relationships with all three of her children? 

It's an epically fascinating show and I find the discussions after just as fascinating.  This sentence makes me think about how Jack kind of unilaterally made the decision to adopt Randall thinking it would at least help (not "fix" but...... salve?) the situation, adding more love to it, and putting them in a situation where they could give their love to someone back, and Rebecca was not 100% gung ho about the idea.  It's not a knock on her; adoption is such a huge thing.  And the show is so fascinating because it shows us this 40 year path of how this all happened leading up to the present.  It's so ambitious and awesome.  After losing their 3rd child, this family was going to have it tough no matter what, and adopting a 3rd kid to 'help' that situation adds a whole other layer of depth/complication to it.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[kili]

Quote

Maybe she doesn't like to fly? 

There are lots of other ways to travel between New York and LA. You can take a train, bus or car. You can even take a boat.

Quote

And once she hears about Kate's recent experience....

Kate got rattled around by turbulence. Rebecca and her family careened off the road and through a fence and she presumably still drives.

It was four years he was on the show. She didn't attend a showing because she didn't want to. And since Kevin greeted her warmly and gave up his turn at being Pilgrim Rick, the two of them clearly don't have an antagonistic relationship. Therefore, Kevin doesn't appear to be to blame for her not attending the show. We may eventually find out that she was kept in the basement for the last 4 years by Miguel and only allowed out to see Broadway shows and learn the name of Randall's assistant, but for now, it looks like she just couldn't be bothered to do something Kevin would have appreciated.

I don't want Kate to be Randall's assistant. She's worked for enough brothers. Plus, given that he currently has an airhead for an assistant, it doesn't seem one needs a lot of skills to get the job. Kate is at another level of assisting.  She's organizing big events and working connections. She should branch out on her own.

Quote

I hope Randall rips into him next for lying. I get his anger with Rebecca, but I'm hoping for a similar scene with William. Dying or not, he lied too. 

I don't think William is as blamesworthy as Rebecca. I can't imagine that Rebecca told him that Randall was searching for him. He gave Randall up because, at the time, he couldn't care for him. Once he could care for him, he respected Randall's mother on her decision to keep him away. Plus, Rebecca was his only tenuous link to his son. He may have feared that if he bypassed her, that he would be completely cut off. Finally, he was honouring the deal Rebecca made him make so that his baby would have a good home.

Randall already yelled at William for abandoning him. Randall not knowing his father for the last 36 years is all on Rebecca. It was her decision.

Edited November 23, 2016 by kili

[Jx223]

29 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

This is pure speculation by me, but I think the Rebecca not knowing about Kevin's play stuff was really heavy-handed.  Is Rebecca so biased towards Randall that any kind of thing Kevin does is seen as needy attention-grabbing, and Rebecca kind of resents it and doesn't like it? And therefore, kind of ignores it? I have mother issues myself, so I am just thinking out loud.  The way some parents act, it is almost laughable 1) how different they treat their kids and 2) how insensitive they can be when a kid or even adult kid really wants approval or validation.  I'm not being judgemental because I don't have children myself, just that I've seen it.  Just as a tiny example, the way my father talks to my brother about his work versus mine.  Some parents see some work as more important than others and don't care how it comes off. 

She seemed like she was interested in learning more about his play but for whatever reasons couldn't remember the name of it. I don't think she was acting that way because she's biased towards Randall. She was trying with Kevin and I thought they looked like they got along pretty fine. (Even though he has issues with Miguel.)

I believe she is going to try with Kate when they interact as well. Even though they her relationship with Kate is (usually)the most strained of her children.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Jx223

[HeySandyStrange]

57 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Olivia ....  It reinforces this sick fantasy that hot bitchy women get love because men just want to "fix" them.  How many Nice Guys out there claim that women just go after jerks, and all the nice guys finish last?  This is kind of overromanticizing that trope which is really funny to me.  What is redeeming about Olivia besides her looks?  Shallow.

I'm thinking Olivia is sort of like Kevin's manic pixie dreamgirl--beautiful, intense, borderline mentally ill in a "romantic" way. Which is a nonsense trope, but I will grudgingly admit, Olivia showed one or two layers tonight. I'm thinking her haughtiness and arrogance are her cover-up for her near total lack of social skills and that puts her rudeness into context a little. Still not seeing the chemistry between the two and I'm not sure why exactly Kevin is pursuing her. Considering how much real life guys like to complain about "nice guys finishing last", it is nice to see an example of that being turned around with Olivia and Kevin. Sometimes men go for jerky women more the nice ones, whether they like to admit it or not.

Randall's giddiness about Thanksgiving was really adorable. I like seeing both past and present Kevin and Randall getting along. I'm not fan of Miguel, but good on Kevin for being the bigger person and letting Miguel in on the tradition.

As much as I hated Jess from Gilmore Girls and always side-eyed Milo V. because of it , he's won me over as Jack. Loving Jack, Rebecca, and the little Pearsons.

[Lady Calypso]

8 minutes ago, kili said:

We may eventually find out that she was kept in the basement for the last 4 years by Miguel and only allowed out to see Broadway shows and learn the name of Randall's assistant,

I'll admit, I laughed harder at this than I probably should have. I'd like to think that Rebecca just has a bad memory, even if she's fitting a pattern with Kevin. My mom's 59 and her memory is absolutely terrible. She has asked me the same question three times in one conversation once. It's not Alzheimer's or dementia as she gets routine tests done for herself, but she just has had a bad memory, starting around her early 50s. Sometimes her memory is excellent especially when it comes to work, and other times I wonder if she's even listening to people when they talk because of her repetition in questions. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Lady Calypso

[SueB]

11 minutes ago, HeySandyStrange said:

I'm thinking Olivia is sort of like Kevin's manic pixie dreamgirl--beautiful, intense, borderline mentally ill in a "romantic" way. Which is a nonsense trope, but I will grudgingly admit, Olivia showed one or two layers tonight. I'm thinking her haughtiness and arrogance are her cover-up for her near total lack of social skills and that puts her rudeness into context a little. Still not seeing the chemistry between the two and I'm not sure why exactly Kevin is pursuing her. Considering how much real life guys like to complain about "nice guys finishing last", it is nice to see an example of that being turned around with Olivia and Kevin. Sometimes men go for jerky women more the nice ones, whether they like to admit it or not.

Randall's giddiness about Thanksgiving was really adorable. I like seeing both past and present Kevin and Randall getting along. I'm not fan of Miguel, but good on Kevin for being the bigger person and letting Miguel in on the tradition.

As much as I hated Jess from Gilmore Girls and always side-eyed Milo V. because of it , he's won me over as Jack. Loving Jack, Rebecca, and the little Pearsons.

 

4

I'm going to guess at:
1) He was initially in awe of her theater credentials and since she was so critical of him, he wants her approval now (fits with his personal issues).
2) Funeral moment may have had more to do with the wrong part of his anatomy driving his decisions.  His opening scene in the series was in bed with two women.  Many men equate sex with intimacy.  He clearly feels isolated, even living in Randall's house.  Plus he called his ex-girlfriend for sex when he was emotionally overwhelmed.  So... initial sex with Olivia may have been driven by many things but he wants to get to a deeper connection with her based on his approach the next day.  Which may actually growth on his part, given his past.
3) He was raised to not leave anyone alone on Thanksgiving (I know that's how I was raised). So as soon as he heard her plans, that immediately goes into the "I have to fix this."  Possibly some of the hero-trope thing going mixed in with just actually being a nice person.

I don't think he remotely thought he was going to get another kiss from Olivia.  I think he felt she had sex with him once to prove a point and it was off the table in the future.  I think Thanksgiving was a revelation for him regarding her.  

ETA: I like that the girls compared her to Katy Perry.  They are such fangirls of Uncle Kevin.  

Edited November 23, 2016 by SueB

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Olivia ....  It reinforces this sick fantasy that hot bitchy women get love because men just want to "fix" them.  How many Nice Guys out there claim that women just go after jerks, and all the nice guys finish last?  This is kind of overromanticizing that trope which is really funny to me.  What is redeeming about Olivia besides her looks?   

And that isn't even redeeming. 

I must say that I am really surprised that Jack is still willing to spend Thanksgiving with Rebecca's family given how they treat Randall. Someone said they don't ever want to see grandma on screen. Me either because excluding Randall is down right vicious. 

I thought no one commenting on Randall's attitude after returning from Philly was strange. He's overhyper, then he's sullen and we see no one, not even Beth, askhim what's the matter? One of those doesn't ring true moments.

I loved seeing Randall teasing Kevin about Olivia. It's good to know he told Randall about her and I loved seeing kid Randall and kid Kevin playing with each other. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[Jx223]

38 minutes ago, CarolMK said:

I read that Chrissy Metz said she would never consider gastric bypass surgery, even though her character has announced she plans to do it. I"m hoping that the show doesn't make a big deal about how Kate succeeds or fails in her weight loss. 

 

I was wondering if she would go through with the surgery. I have seen a couple of situations where actors had surgery and they wrote their weight loss into their shows. On Guiding Light one of the actress had lap band surgery and they had her character have surgery as well. Her character experienced some struggles afterwards but ended up being fine.

I believe that Kevin James had surgery some years ago as well which helped him lose weight. On "The King of Queens" they addressed his character's weight loss but said he lost it due to cutting carbs. Maybe an inverse situation will happen for Chrissy. Maybe she will lose weight without surgery but they will eventually have Kate go through with and credit it for helping her lose weight.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Jx223

[sarkygal]

2 hours ago, topanga said:

 

And I agree with the poster (I can't find you, FSR) who said that Randall seemed a little manic. I agree, in the sense that his enthusiasm didn't allow him to react to any of the people around him. His own emotional state was all he could see. I'm not trying to diagnose Randall with bipolar disorder. Maybe he was just being child-like. But he did seem a little manic. 

I've felt that way about Randall since the pilot as well. Maybe it's the intensity Sterling plays the character with, but i've had the feeling Randall is either supposed to be on the spectrum or is manic almost everyone he's on screen. I get that his character has had some pretty emotional issues since the pilot, but his reactions just seem like we'll find out some significant health issue soon. I could be wrong, but I'm glad others are seeing it too. 

[ohjoy]

I'm so mad at William. Dude, she was completely ready to Uber outta there -- wwhhhyyyyy did you have to go "wise old owl" on her and convince her to stay??? I don't want to have to trade less time with Toby for more time with Olivia.

[Cardie]

Quote

I agree that Annie and Tess are Miguel's grandkids.

The mother of my best friend and next-door-neighbor growing up died (of stomach cancer) when we were 16. To the three daughters my friend eventually had her dad's second wife was the only grandmother they knew. This woman was a terrific, warm and caring person, yet every time I hear those girls talk about their grandmother, meaning the stepmother, I cringe a little. So I can see why the kids resent Miguel even though realizing it isn't his fault. I loved Randall's "He's our stepdad, not ISIS."

[Dowel Jones]

On a side note, who puts up a roadside sign that says "Gas, 3.4 miles"?  I had to laugh at that.  It reminded me of a visit to a relative in Los Alamos, NM, home to more scientists per square mile than anywhere (slight hyperbole there).  The highway department there had a sense of humor when they put up a sign that read "Road Construction Next .547 Miles".

Watching the collision between Kevin and Rebecca and the resulting cranberry disaster, all I could think of was that if that had been me crashing into my mom in the same circumstances, there would still be three kids in the back seat.  One of them missing a head.

[Jx223]

31 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

 

I loved seeing Randall teasing Kevin about Olivia. It's good to know he told Randall about her and I loved seeing kid Randall and kid Kevin playing with each other. 

He also seemed happy when he told Rebecca to "Let's go say hi to them". And I thought what he said to the family when he found out Kate wasn't bringing Tony was kind of funny. "She's not bringing the boyfriend. Sounds like drama. Okay, Bye." lol. I am glad he is supportive of his siblings and them trying to find love.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Jx223

[saber5055]

Great episode. Plus this show uses the best music ever, Cat Stevens and now Graceland, my favorite album. Complaints: A walk that long would take two hours. Why not walk 20 minutes to keep tradition. Then all that running around, no one was watching dinner which I "assume" was in the oven. After Randall started it, I guess it had to finish cooking itself. Then again with Kate having to eat dry leaves for dinner. WTH is up with portraying dieting like that when there is broiled fish, steamed veg, even fresh veg, burger patties, cottage cheese ... the list goes on. Plus THANK YOU for dumping Toby. He was all, "But what about ME?" when Kate said she needed to find herself. He's a self-centered jackass. And, BTW, so is Olivia. Asking "How does it feel to die" was worthy of her finding out first hand how it feels.

[Neurochick]

I loved this episode.

I get Olivia.  From what she said, she is from a dysfunctional fucked up family where everybody pretended everything was okay when it wasn't, so because of that she doesn't trust simplicity; I didn't find her mean, it's just that she doesn't trust what's in front of her.

It was sad how Randall found out about William and Rebecca knowing each other but I guess it was bound to happen.   I get his being upset.  Because Rebecca sought William out, she really could have sat Randall down when he was of age and told him what she knew about his father.  I don't think less of her for not telling Randall anything, since William was an active addict when she saw him.  Randall needs to understand that sometimes the universe knows what it's doing.  Had he looked for William when William was using drugs, he might have just written the man off forever, maybe William might have tried to scam him for money, maybe Randall might have wasted time and energy trying to get William into recovery.  If any of those things had happened, which can happen with an addict, Randall might have written off his father forever.  Now, even though William is dying, Randall can at least have some kind of relationship with the man.

What I have noticed about this show is how Randall is so much like Jack; he's the one with the wife and children, he's the one who tries to be the "fun dad", tries to see the good in everything, the way Jack did.  Randall seems to be the one who keeps up the family traditions; even Jack's way of wearing a tie really stuck with Randall.  It's like the show is asking the question, "how important is blood if you're not around that blood?"

As for Miguel, I don't feel as bad as some here do, about him.  One of my best friends married a man who had three children, they lived with their bio-mom but she wasn't much of a mother, she never cooked for them, didn't care if they went to school or not.  Maybe the issue is that when Miguel and Rebecca married, the "three" were either young adults or close to it.  Jack isn't seen as being perfect, but when it came to his children, he tried to make the best out of whatever was happening.

[saber5055]

If I had a son who was starring in a hit tv show, I'd be all about him flying me out there and putting me up in the Bev Hills Hilton so I could watch a taping, whether I liked that kid or not. Not remembering the name of a play that is still in rehearsals (I guess) is less a family crime than not "taking advantage of" a child who is a famous actor. Just sayin'. There's some real hate for Kevin from every family member who did not take advantage and ride his coattails of fame.

[Tiger]

Its so sad to see Jack with so much light in his eyes when the kids were 8ish knowing that light will be gone when theyre 15 and then he'll die shortly after.  Actually, I am seeing a lot of paralles between 1988ish and 1995ish Jack compared to 80's/90's and 2016 Rebecca.  

Jon Huertas is doing an excellent job.  I really liked Esposito, and I love to hate Miguel.  The longer they drag out what happened to Jack, Shelly, and her kids with Miguel the worse it will be.  

I hope thats the end of Toby.  Im still undecided on Olivia, but she's certainly no Beth.

I cant wait to see Jack with adult Randall next week and how they handle that.  I definitely think Randall has some sort of mental disorder/issue.

[TVAddict]

As an overweight stepmom who came from a hugely dysfunctional family, this episode hit me right between the eyes.  The scene when Kate was boarding the plane was truly wrenching.  The sadness in feeling left out reflected in step-grandpa's face was truly wrenching.  The controlling perfectionist unseen mom on the phone was truly wrenching.  Sheesh, these writers were so inside my head that I feel like I deserve a royalty check.  This show is tremendous, my biographical information aside.  The writing is only bested by the acting.  I sure hope they can keep up this quality.