S03.E02: Paradox

[VCRTracking]

Jay Garrick's capped teeth were distracting me during his explanation of how Barry can't fix the timeline.

[blugirlami21]

Quote

Sadly the Sara that was erased can't be their second child since the DNA around later wouldn't be the same anymore.  And yes, we found out that Diggle had a son in the future but we didn't find out that he didn't also have a daughter. All they had to do is give him two kids instead of one and then they could have been clever without sending a message that a boy is an improvement. 

I do know it's the writer's fault more than Barry's but if they hadn't decided to go the extra mile and service Barry's storyline, they couldn't have erased Sara. So yeah, it very much feels like it's Barry's fault.  And he was a total tool for doing what he did and no, him trying to explain and justify it did not make me any more sympathetic.  Everyone else is expected to deal and move on but not Barry Allen.  Remember he spent three months thinking he got what he wanted so screw the consequences.

I'm not sure I'm following what you are saying about their DNA not being the same the second time around.  I really don't think that the show is going to go that deep into it if they do wind up giving John another child.  It's a comic book show, it wouldn't surprise me if they had the exact same child again just at a different time.  Which is why I'm not that upset by the change.  And ultimately like other posters have said I really think that decision was something that the Arrow writers chose to incorporate into Diggle's storyline.

I'm not denying that the change is Barry's fault, he acknowledged that several times in the episode.  I mean you can forgive him for it or not but I like that for right now he's not going to try to change his mistakes but live with them.  I can't begrudge him the three months that he had with his parents.  It's easy to say what we wouldn't do in a situation until we actually have to experience it ourselves.  Cisco had a very similar mindset to Barry's every time he asked Barry to go back in time and save Dante.  When you're grieving, it's sometimes very easy to be selfish and only think about what would make the pain go away.  

I don't think the show is saying time travel is bad now so much as time traveling for personal gain is.  It reminds me strongly of Charmed and their personal gain rule and the fact that whenever they used their powers for personal gain they would be punished for it in some way.  Barry's not a fast learner but I hope he's finally starting to get it.

[Trini]

Okay so now we’re getting to the actual repercussions of Flashpoint. I don't see why everyone had to be worse off, though? Ripple effects are one thing, but for the audience, they’ve essentially thrown out 2 seasons of continuity/history.

Cisco is a fan favorite, the 'fun' one; hated that they killed his brother, so now he's sad and angry. But they fast-tracked his Vibe powers, so, yay? Also I guess Caitlin will be getting the same 'developing powers' arc Cisco had last year. But, yay, a new storyline for her?

The change about Diggle's child seems somewhat arbitrary; but it's what the Arrow writers wanted? I get that they wanted to show that Flashpoint also affects Arrow, but they didn't need to delete a character to do it. I didn't mind Felicity, but I think it would have made more sense if Barry was venting to Oliver -- but then he probably would have given Barry some useful advice, and then what would we need Jay Garrick for?

The writers give, and they taketh away: I wanted Iris to be more upset about Joe lying about her mother since last season, but it looks like that's over with now. And a scene with her at the crime scene (shown in promo photos) was cut. The Wests are a big part of the show; I really need to know what changed for them in this timeline.

Another season, another masked villain. Except for the part where his powers make no sense, Dr. Alchemy is interesting so far. Please, show, don't pretend like he isn't Barry's CSI boss. Make this reveal sooner rather than later, thanks.

Speaking of Julian Albert; I like him! A work antagonist is going to be an interesting dynamic. Now maybe we'll see more of Barry doing his actual job! And be smart like he's supposed to be.

Hey, a new set! Iron Heights Metahuman Cell. So hopefully, no more Pipeline prisoners.

I'm all for Barry/Iris, and I know it was there to reassure the 'shippers; but that kiss scene seemed unearned.

I did like the comedy bit where Barry was setting up the most awkward dinner party EVER.

[Xenith22]

I call total BS on Barry remembering that he kissed Iris.  That was one of the memories that he clearly was supposed to have lost last episode?  How does it make any sense that memories erased of a previous timeline would return to him when he traveled to a new timeline where they also didn't happen?  Ugh.

On a different note although I'm mad about losing baby Sara...I'm just glad that we got John Jr and not baby Laurel to replace her...

Edited October 12, 2016 by Xenith22

[Aeryn13]

Just like the Premiere, this was too rushed. I guess there some irony in a show about a speedster rushing through plotlines. It was somewhat clever that the true consequences from Flashpoint came after Flashpoint and it was satisfying when Jay ripped Barry out of the speedforce to talk some sense into him. Seriously, things seem to have gotten to the point for Barry where he immediately went "ah, too hard, time-travel do-over". 

But I kinda don`t like that the new timeline is actually a show do-over. Cisco is now an angsty super-hero. Regardless if I like that development or not, it sucks that I didn`t get to see it. It happened offscreen. And the development I DID see over the last two years is gone. Erased from time. Thanks ever so. 

I also like that they didn`t chicken out of Killer Frost with Earth 2 Killer Frost but equally, I didn`t get to really see Caitlin`s origin story either. Urgh.

And the insta-forgiveness rankled. Joe and Iris already made up, Cisco came around and everyone collectively forgave Barry. Over on Arrow people hold grudges forever. Why? Is it because Oliver doesn`t cry prettily? Because lets be real, that`s the only thing Barry offered. Tears.

They don`t want the show to be too dark and angsty, fine, but then don`t intoduce those plotlines and then resolve them with a care-bear-attitude. This looks ridiculous. Barry got off scot-free for now. Other than once again releasing the Seasonal monster on the city.

This whole thing was disappointing. If they wanted to do Flashpoint, fine, but they should have devoted more time to it.   

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

But I kinda don`t like that the new timeline is actually a show do-over. Cisco is now an angsty super-hero. Regardless if I like that development or not, it sucks that I didn`t get to see it. It happened offscreen. And the development I DID see over the last two years is gone. Erased from time. Thanks ever so. 

That's not necessarily true, it sounds like the major changes occurred a few months ago in the show's timeline (so somewhere in season 2).  I'm assuming we've seen most of mopey Cisco if only because he can't fill his role of geeky fanboy if he's depressed.  It would be like Felicity spending an entire season acting sullen.

Also, these are the people who encouraged Barry to save his mom at the end of season 1.  They don't have a problem with using time travel to save people.  We'll see what happens when someone Barry cares about (i.e. the main cast) is tragically killed. 

[Chris24601]

6 hours ago, DCLeague said:

Likely they were looking for an excuse to do it (ever since SC 2046), they got it. Its the only effort they put in "servicing" this Barry storyline.

But Jon Diggle Jr. (aka Conner Hawke) was not in his mid-thirties in that episode... which is what Jon Jr. would be in 2046 if he was born in place of Baby Sara. The original intention was clearly that Jon Jr. was Sara's younger brother.

Hopefully, Arrow tomorrow will not reference Diggle's family and then Thursday a real hero (aka Sara Lance) will realize something got screwed up and use the resources at her disposal including an actual time cop to go and fix things. It could even be an offhand line about having done so in the premiere... then when it gets back to Arrow again Sara Diggle is back where she should be.

And this is now the second episode in a row where I'm grateful that Supergirl takes place in a different universe so that Barry mucking with his own universe's timeline doesn't mess with hers. By the same token, Harry and Jessie should remember the previous timeline because they were in a completely different universe while Barry was mucking around with the time stream. Maybe they can slap him around some more.

[Scarlett45]

10 hours ago, mtlchick said:

Dante is Cisco's brother that we saw last season.  Sara is Diggle's baby on Arrow (edit; well before Barry messed that up.  Hopefully that will get echoed on Arrow soon enough.) 

Oh! Ok. I knew about Cisco's brother but I don't watch Arrow. That makes sense now. But, in this new timeline didn't Cisco tell CaptCold Barry was the Flash to protect his brother? Maybe it was Cisco's choice to do that that butterflied into the drunk driver (in season 2's timeline he did not)......time travel makes my head hurt. 

6 hours ago, blugirlami21 said:

I'm not sure I'm following what you are saying about their DNA not being the same the second time around.  I really don't think that the show is going to go that deep into it if they do wind up giving John another child.  It's a comic book show, it wouldn't surprise me if they had the exact same child again just at a different time.  Which is why I'm not that upset by the change.  And ultimately like other posters have said I really think that decision was something that the Arrow writers chose to incorporate into Diggle's storyline.

I'm not denying that the change is Barry's fault, he acknowledged that several times in the episode.  I mean you can forgive him for it or not but I like that for right now he's not going to try to change his mistakes but live with them.  I can't begrudge him the three months that he had with his parents.  It's easy to say what we wouldn't do in a situation until we actually have to experience it ourselves.  Cisco had a very similar mindset to Barry's every time he asked Barry to go back in time and save Dante.  When you're grieving, it's sometimes very easy to be selfish and only think about what would make the pain go away.  

I don't think the show is saying time travel is bad now so much as time traveling for personal gain is.  It reminds me strongly of Charmed and their personal gain rule and the fact that whenever they used their powers for personal gain they would be punished for it in some way.  Barry's not a fast learner but I hope he's finally starting to get it.

A different sperm meeting the egg or a different conception time with a different egg AND sperm means a different child all together between the same parents. That's what people meant by "their DNA not being the same any more" and having a child that's not Sara. 

[kirinan]

I so wish these shows would quit making "Arrow" a required part of the curriculum. I don't know who Sara is, I don't care who Sara is (except the Sara on "Legends of Tomorrow" who is evidently a different Sara), and why should I have to watch one show just to be able to follow three others? Yes, I do try to ignore the Arrow references, but that's the one thing that really bothers me about what have become my three favorite shows (LoT, Flash, Supergirl). Not all of us care about "Arrow," showrunners.

In other news, Barry is still the worst superhero ever, but the best angster/crier ever. However, that's getting old. I cheered at his talking-to from Jay. Now, just LISTEN TO THE MAN, Barry!

Oh, and I like Julian. He reminds me of a younger version of Ducky on NCIS, for some reason (not David McCallum, the character of Ducky). Although I think Julian's way more irascible. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by kirinan

[benteen]

7 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Jay Garrick's capped teeth were distracting me during his explanation of how Barry can't fix the timeline.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who knew this.  Do those caps have to be THAT white?  It didn't look natural at all.

Sara Diggle was never born and Dante's dead but Barry gets to kiss Iris for the first time...again.  Talk about someone who truly does not deserve an ounce of happiness for all the selfish shit that he did.

A poster on the AV Club said it best.  Barry with angst worked so well, let's give him tons more!  And hey, let's give Cisco some angst too!  Seriously, Emo Cisco is something nobody wanted to see.

[quarks]

9 minutes ago, kirinan said:

I so wish these shows would quit making "Arrow" a required part of the curriculum. I don't know who Sara is, I don't care who Sara is (except the Sara on "Legends of Tomorrow" who is evidently a different Sara), and why should I have to watch one show just to be able to follow three others? Yes, I do try to ignore the Arrow references, but that's the one thing that really bothers me about what have become my three favorite shows (LoT, Flash, Supergirl). Not all of us care about "Arrow," showrunners.

 

 

Very fair criticism.  I don't think that Arrow fans should have to watch Flash to find out if Diggle has a son or a daughter, and on the other side, the numbers are pretty clear: a large percentage of Flash viewers don't watch and presumably don't care about Arrow. I love the crossovers, but when Arrow characters pop over, they should just be focused on whatever is happening on Flash, since that's the show they're on. 

That might even make one or two viewers like you more interested in Arrow, rather than annoyed that your show is spending time on character development for another show.  Or not, but making viewers annoyed at Arrow/needing to know about Arrow is hardly the best way to draw viewers to that show.

[CabotCove]

Quote

But Jon Diggle Jr. (aka Conner Hawke) was not in his mid-thirties in that episode... which is what Jon Jr. would be in 2046 if he was born in place of Baby Sara. The original intention was clearly that Jon Jr. was Sara's younger brother.

You think they still care about continuity anymore....nah they are likely thinking about a successor for Stephen Amell, if he ever decides to leave Arrow before the showrunners wants it to end.   Thats what this gender switch and rapid aging is really about, Flashpoint just made their long kept wishes possible. IMO.

[Sakura12]

45 minutes ago, kirinan said:

I so wish these shows would quit making "Arrow" a required part of the curriculum. I don't know who Sara is, I don't care who Sara is (except the Sara on "Legends of Tomorrow" who is evidently a different Sara), and why should I have to watch one show just to be able to follow three others? Yes, I do try to ignore the Arrow references, but that's the one thing that really bothers me about what have become my three favorite shows (LoT, Flash, Supergirl). Not all of us care about "Arrow," showrunners.

Baby Sara was named after Sara from Legends.  So even if the Diggle's have another girl, she wouldn't be Sara. She only had that name because the other Sara died and they wanted to honor her. Sara's alive so they most likely not name their daughter after her. Of course they still could because Sara's an awesome person to be named after. However they would probably name her whatever name they had planned before Sara died. 

I also don't understand why the Diggle's couldn't have two kids, Sara and John Jr. They didn't need to erase a girl to add another boy. They already treat most of the female characters like props. 

I'm interested in how Caitlin's storyline will go, but I'm not holding my breath for something amazing. She's barely an afterthought on the show as it is. 

[Primetimer]

Barry's got a lot of people mad at him. Luckily he's still adorbs.

View the full article

[Lady Calypso]

42 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I also don't understand why the Diggle's couldn't have two kids, Sara and John Jr. They didn't need to erase a girl to add another boy. They already treat most of the female characters like props. 

 

It is really dumb and I'll only mention this once, because this is technically about Arrow. But I think they'll probably get baby Sara back. Just...later this season for Arrow. Whether that's through Barry time travelling again, as I suspect he will, or Lyla/Diggle naturally conceiving, that's to be seen. And I know she won't be our baby Sara but a different version, but hopefully they do find a way to bring her back because they did screw up. They already treat female characters....less than kindly on The Flash. And it only took three seasons for it to affect Arrow! Congrats, show! 

45 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm interested in how Caitlin's storyline will go, but I'm not holding my breath for something amazing. She's barely an afterthought on the show as it is. 

I just hope her storyline gets treated with the same care that Cisco got. But I doubt that'll happen, because Caitlin's a woman and they always drop the ball on female characters. I wish it wasn't the case, but it is. So we'll probably see Cisco and Barry's POV before Caitlin's when they find out.

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

 

Very fair criticism.  I don't think that Arrow fans should have to watch Flash to find out if Diggle has a son or a daughter, and on the other side, the numbers are pretty clear: a large percentage of Flash viewers don't watch and presumably don't care about Arrow. I love the crossovers, but when Arrow characters pop over, they should just be focused on whatever is happening on Flash, since that's the show they're on. 

That might even make one or two viewers like you more interested in Arrow, rather than annoyed that your show is spending time on character development for another show.  Or not, but making viewers annoyed at Arrow/needing to know about Arrow is hardly the best way to draw viewers to that show.

It isn't just Arrow though, they are also trying to manipulate Flash fans into watching LOT with these crossovers and time changes. It is too much. I refuse to watch the crossovers even if I am confused by the next episode of The Flash. If and when I want to watch Arrow or LOT, I will. 

As for The Flash, I just want the writers to stop with the time jumps/changes and actually write for the characters on the show. I will settle for the villain of the week if they give it a rest.

Edited October 12, 2016 by SimoneS

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

I so wish these shows would quit making "Arrow" a required part of the curriculum. I don't know who Sara is, I don't care who Sara is (except the Sara on "Legends of Tomorrow" who is evidently a different Sara), and why should I have to watch one show just to be able to follow three others? Yes, I do try to ignore the Arrow references, but that's the one thing that really bothers me about what have become my three favorite shows (LoT, Flash, Supergirl). Not all of us care about "Arrow," showrunners.

Sara turning into John Jr. is just proof Barry's actions affected more than his inner circle.  To be honest for folks who don't watch Arrow that's all it is, you don't have to know who Sara is to know there was a switch.  Heck, they could have done it by showing Barry a picture of the president/governor/etc. and having him mention a difference.  Arrow fans, on the other hand, might be annoyed that a character from another show was able to retcon a character on their show AND have that news delivered on the other show. 

[cdnalor]

So let me get this straight: The timeline where some guy FROM THE FUTURE traveled back in time to kill Barry's mother is the "correct" timeline while the timeline where Barry's parents live a normal life is the fucked-up one?

Also, Cisco had no justification for resenting Barry's refusal to prevent Dante's death. Barry's mother's death was due to timeline interference by Reverse Flash while Dante's car crash was a normal, albeit unfortunate, occurrence. Barry saving his mother should be seen as an attempt to restore a broken timeline rather than a selfish desire to protect a loved one. I would hope that Cisco would be able to see that logic through his grief.

[Writing Wrongs]

12 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

Has Cisco or Caitlin ever dropped a Harry Potter reference? I hope the show does it, I would just squeal if they did.

They said "Holy Harry Potter" in the Time Wraith episode.

[benteen]

51 minutes ago, cdnalor said:

So let me get this straight: The timeline where some guy FROM THE FUTURE traveled back in time to kill Barry's mother is the "correct" timeline while the timeline where Barry's parents live a normal life is the fucked-up one?

Also, Cisco had no justification for resenting Barry's refusal to prevent Dante's death. Barry's mother's death was due to timeline interference by Reverse Flash while Dante's car crash was a normal, albeit unfortunate, occurrence. Barry saving his mother should be seen as an attempt to restore a broken timeline rather than a selfish desire to protect a loved one. I would hope that Cisco would be able to see that logic through his grief.

That is a very fair point I will admit.  But trying to correct it keeps creating a butterfly effect and Barry should have learned from Season 1 when he blew up the world NOT to try time travel again.

I'm glad reviewers are realizing what an ass Barry has become and what a bad character as well.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So let me get this straight: The timeline where some guy FROM THE FUTURE traveled back in time to kill Barry's mother is the "correct" timeline while the timeline where Barry's parents live a normal life is the fucked-up one? 

I think for the purpose of this show or more specifically for the character of Barry Allen that we met, yes, since he was the one who originated from exactly that timeline. The old original timeline pre-Eobard-Thawne`s interference would and did most certainly have a different Barry Allen in some ways. For that guy, that timeline would have been the correct one.

This is the problem with what Barry has been doing IMO. The Flashpoint universe and whatever the fuck he created now are not his original timelines, therefore they are wrong for him. I`m not sure they will ever reset the timeline back to what it was in Season 1 and 2 so most likely our Barry will have to live in the "wrong" timeline - for him - from now on.

At best it`s a bit like Fringe where we had blue Earth and red Earth and then Peter disappeared and blue Earth permanently turned into amber? Earth, even when Peter came back. Jay Gerrick said time could never be fixed again so this is likely the Earth we are stuck with. Even if Barry travelled back a hundred times more, he and we wouldn`t regain the timeline we have had so far in Seasons 1 and 2. But hey, if Doc Alchemy can do it, I`ll give him a medal.  

[ElleMo]

2 hours ago, cdnalor said:

So let me get this straight: The timeline where some guy FROM THE FUTURE traveled back in time to kill Barry's mother is the "correct" timeline while the timeline where Barry's parents live a normal life is the fucked-up one?

That's the problem I have with this whole timeline thing too.

According to Rip Hunter (Legends of Tomorrow), time has a way of correcting itself.  If you stick to that logic, if time didn't kill off Barry's mother in some other way, then she wasn't meant to die until much later on.

14 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

I John Wesley Shipp's other TV son getting a cameo.

Who is that?

14 hours ago, quarks said:

7. WTF, plot. How did Barry's mother dying just a few seconds later in this timeline cause any of the effects you created?

8. WTF, plot. Flash, I get that you don't want Barry running around changing time because it brings up problems like this, but have you already forgotten that Barry's previous time changes have had mixed effects, not completely bad effects? The first time, he stopped a tidal wave from destroying Central City, and another time, he and slight changes stopped Vandal Savage from killing everyone in Central City. So why try to say now that changing time always has bad effects, or are you trying to say that everyone is worse off because Central City wasn't destroyed?

While it hasn't explicitly been stated here, in the original Flashpoint storyline (at least the cartoon version), it was made clear that when you go back in time, it causes ripples to go back even further in the timeline.  Which is why Bruce Wayne was killed instead of his parents, even though that happened years before Barry's mother dies.  When Barry stopped the tidal wave, he only want back one day. Shorter travels bring smaller ripples so changing the events of a day prior would not have had as much impact as changing events years ago. 

That being said, it makes no sense that Legends of Tomorrow can exist in the same Universe without both Arrow and Flash constantly having things change.  The Legends are travelling all over the timeline, yet that has no impact on the present day.  Sarah spends years with League of Assassins in the 1950s and Ray and Kendra live together as an unmarried interracial couple in the 1950s while he works at a University.   How can that not ripple down through time?  At the minimum, Ray put someone out of a job, who could have been a very important research scientist or mentor to someone.   

They did a lot more too, and I can go on for a while, but I'm sure you get my point.  

For all we know, Sarah was winked out of existence and Dante died in a car accident because of something the Legends did and not Barry. But then again, no, we don't need any more complicated storylines.

Time travel is being used waaaaay to much.

Edited October 12, 2016 by ElleMo
typos, typos and more typos

[TobinAlbers]

32 minutes ago, ElleMo said:

14 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

I John Wesley Shipp's other TV son getting a cameo.

Who is that?

When Jay took Barry to the 1990s to talk about not mucking around the timeline, on the tv in the diner was Dawson's Creek. JWS played Dawson's father on the show. Berlanti also worked on the show so it was a double easter egg.

Edited October 12, 2016 by TobinAlbers

[maxineofarc]

2 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

They said "Holy Harry Potter" in the Time Wraith episode.

They made Dementor references to the Time Wraiths a few times, and in "Rupture," when Harry said something sarcastic about Cisco getting the wand he made for the Harry Potter convention, Cisco mumbled "How did you know about the Harry Potter convention?" So he's a fan in universe. And while Carlos Valdes is no doubt a fine actor, I'm already pretty bored with Mopey Cisco and hope he moves on sooner rather than later.

I like Barry getting a new foil at work, and for him to have to work with somebody who just plain doesn't like him. It feels like his adorableness wins everybody over too quickly, and apparently Julian's resisted it for some time. Surely it's just too obvious for him to be Dr. Alchemy, right?

I still think Barry and Iris have all the chemistry of a pile of wet leaves.

[TwistedandBored]

This episode was again rushed. I wish the Flash writers would just let stories breath for a moment. They should have kept Barry playing catch up on this new reality and trying to understand the damage he caused. Instead they rushed his feeling of guilt and had everyone forgiven him instantly. This does not allow Barry to have the character growth he desperately needs. 

[statsgirl]

I am so sick of everyone on this show, Felicity included, endlessly enabling Barry.  It's another reason why Barry keeps making the same mistake over and over again. At least Jay Garrick had some truth tea for him.

I don't mind Dante dying because he was barely on the show, but getting rid of Sara makes me so mad because she was a real part of Arrow for two seasons.  The scene with Diggle riding on a motorcycle with Sara strapped on his back was awesome.

Worst, they erased her on The International Day of The Girl.   Way to honor women, Arrowverse.

12 hours ago, DCLeague said:

Likely they were looking for an excuse to do it (ever since SC 2046), they got it. Its the only effort they put in "servicing" this Barry storyline.

Why would they need to do it at all?  Everyone knew that the John Diggle Jr. that was on LOT was from an alternate timeline.  And even if they wanted to create that John Diggle Jr, why not leave Sara in existence too? It doesn't hurt SC 2046 at all.

For me, it's just another example of how The Flash doesn't value female characters except as props for the men.  It's like it's from a extremist country.  Sure, we'll educate a girl to be a doctor but she'll only be able to use it to help the men.

Quote

 I don't think I'm as hard on Barry as other posters seemed to be.  I think considering Barry's personality and the trauma he has endured in such a short period of time that it's only natural for him to want to try to create a happier reality for himself.  He ultimately realized that it was the wrong choice for him to make and tried to change it back only to be faced with the reality that things were still not back to normal.

Barry had a trauma, yes, although in the Arrowverse others have had more (not to mention the real children currently in wartorn parts of the world).  But Barry also had a bunch of mitigating factors (e.g. Joe taking him in to be a part of his family, his father is still alive) so for him to be stuck now through two seasons and possibly more trying to remake history so he can get his happy ending has moved from childhood trauma into a serious obsession.  Yes, he can want the happier reality that could have happened but his constantly trying to make it happen and hurting the people he says he loves in the process is neither healthy nor excusable at this point.  It's not Evil Queen levels but it's selfish narcissistic.

Edited October 12, 2016 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

11 hours ago, Xenith22 said:

I call total BS on Barry remembering that he kissed Iris.  That was one of the memories that he clearly was supposed to have lost last episode?  How does it make any sense that memories erased of a previous timeline would return to him when he traveled to a new timeline where they also didn't happen?  Ugh.

On a different note although I'm mad about losing baby Sara...I'm just glad that we got John Jr and not baby Laurel to replace her...

He had to have gotten his memories back once they redid the time line though by the reasoning of the first episode, in three months Barry should not remember the old timeline anymore and SHOULD remember the current one.  And yet I don't think they are going to go there.

Consistency, is that so much to ask?

6 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

And this is now the second episode in a row where I'm grateful that Supergirl takes place in a different universe so that Barry mucking with his own universe's timeline doesn't mess with hers. By the same token, Harry and Jessie should remember the previous timeline because they were in a completely different universe while Barry was mucking around with the time stream.

This is absolutely true and now if they don't follow through with that, I'll be super annoyed.

I expect to be super annoyed. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by BkWurm1

[DearEvette]

15 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

It felt a lot like an excuse to build a super hero team. Because every show needs a super hero team now.  You can't have a super hero and normal people.

And when everyone is Super, no one will be.

13 hours ago, bookrat said:

Did Dante die in the original timeline? I dont recall him dying. Why not tell Cisco Dante was still safe in the other timeline?

I wonder if that would make things even worse.  Because even though this Cisco didn't exist until Barry fractured the timeline, knowing that the fracture he caused to save his parents is actually what kinda caused his brother to die might just make him madder.

Anyway, while I appreciate the idea of all the ripples that the time changes have caused, I am mad at the dark tone of the show.  One reason I don't watch Arrow is because of all the dark broodiness.  I was attracted to The Flash because it was brighter both in tone and look.  I am not here for everyone being so mad, sad and pissed. Get over it!  I want our shiny show back.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

Anyway, while I appreciate the idea of all the ripples that the time changes have caused, I am mad at the dark tone of the show.  One reason I don't watch Arrow is because of all the dark broodiness.  I was attracted to The Flash because it was brighter both in tone and look.  I am not here for everyone being so mad, sad and pissed. Get over it!  I want our shiny show back.

THIS. I thought the  show runners hacks promised that going forward, things were going to be more light in tone? Or was I smokin' something I didn't know I was smokin' when I read that?

I love Julian's accent.

And...other stuff happened?

Edited October 12, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[kirinan]

1 hour ago, maxineofarc said:

I still think Barry and Iris have all the chemistry of a pile of wet leaves.

This. Especially after watching the Supergirl episode with The Flash for the first time a couple of weeks ago. Even though I didn't see it as romantic chemistry between Barry and Kara, those two have bucketloads chemistry. And I think Barry and Felicity are also good together; even my husband commented on how much he liked the two of them interacting. I like Iris much better than I did at the beginning of the show, but IMO, she and Barry are a yawn romantically.

I wish the DC shows would just give up the intentional shipping of the main characters, and just let it happen where it will, organically. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by kirinan

[mrspidey]

16 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

When I think about it, it really is insane that TPTB found a way to make broad changes with no obligation to explain or set any of them up.  You know the past two years that you watched?  Nothing you are sure of can ever be counted on anymore cause Flashpoint.  They now have permission to retcon anything in season one or two.  It seriously lessens my enjoyment. 

There is no set reality anymore.  We don't know what really happened. 

Welcome to the world of comic books. It was pretty much the same when DC did Flashpoint in the comics. 

[BkWurm1]

12 minutes ago, mrspidey said:

Welcome to the world of comic books. It was pretty much the same when DC did Flashpoint in the comics. 

What is acceptable in the comics doesn't always work in another media.  Plus I've never accepted the because comics explanation before so I'm not going to start now, ;)

[Aeryn13]

I`m more prone to forgive such things in comic books, though. They usually only do such a big relaunch after a decade or so of stories. At which point they have exhausted all alternate timelines, mirror-verses or beings from outer space. This show has only been on 2 years and they already jumped to the world`s most random retcon. I mean, Iris was mad at Joe for a couple weeks longer, Barry has a co-worker who doesn`t like him, Cisco found a reason to be mopey yet suped-up, Caitlin randomely morphed with her Earth 2-self power-wise and the only person over on Arrow affected seems to be Diggle now having a son instead of a daughter. Seriously?

I get all the picking and choosing what they did or didn`t want to happen on THIS show but it did nothing else over on another show but change the gender of a child for some cockamamie reason? Yes, I know, it could have affected other things but we already know, not so much. Randomely, only Sara Diggle was affected. If they wanted to commit to making big changes on all shows, then commit. This is some half-baked, convenient shit. At least comic book movies go all out in things like that. Yes, I`m aware a little show on the CW doesn`t have that budget but in that case either stay away from such storylines or compensate the lack of dollars with clever writing. This was neither.    

[KirkB]

I think you're right. The randomness is the problem here. If there were some big, significant changes, I might think Thawne was running around messing with Barry's life or altering things for his own reasons (and BTW, I wonder if it's ever going to occur to Barry to tell the others Reverse Flash is free again). But Joe and Iris kind of at odds, a hostile co-worker, Cisco's brother being dead, Caitlin having powers, and John Diggle's child being a different gender doesn't really hurt Barry or help Thawne.  It doesn't even strike me as the writers using Flashpoint as a way to retcon stuff they didn't like or they thought wasn't working. It seriously seems, right now, like they spread out a bunch of plot points and threw darts.

[CabotCove]

Quote

 

Why would they need to do it at all?  Everyone knew that the John Diggle Jr. that was on LOT was from an alternate timeline.  And even if they wanted to create that John Diggle Jr, why not leave Sara in existence too? It doesn't hurt SC 2046 at all.

For me, it's just another example of how The Flash doesn't value female characters except as props for the men.  It's like it's from a extremist country.  Sure, we'll educate a girl to be a doctor but she'll only be able to use it to help the men.

 

What has The Flash got to benefit from switching a gender of a child that isnt even part of their show?.  This is all on Arrow, Im sure they made this decision, The Flash wouldnt even have made such a show altering decision without their permission anyhow. Both sets of writers work together in crossover episodes like these, they are not going to make decisions for the other show. Like I said above, this benefits Arrow in that they can have a back up Green Arrow if Stephen Amell choses to leave. SC 2046 was alternate timeline yes, but its not like they care anymore about that,they are going to incorporate changes they like to actual timeline hence this boy.  They can either time jump to 2046 or bring the time travel Green Arrow 2.0 to 2016, if a time ever comes that Amell no longer whats to do Arrow. It might not and this would be all for nothing. 

No, this is all on Arrow, they whitewash characters left and right, now they gender-erase and do soap opera aging to fit their needs.  The show is getting more and more bolder at retconning and jumping the shark, old shows tend to start doing that. The Flash is not responsible for how they chose to use this Flashpoint gift.  Thats my perspective on this. 

Quote

I wish the DC shows would just give up the intentional shipping of the main characters, and just let it happen where it will, organically. 

Having a pre-planned couples' trajectory is organic, this whole chemistry thing is overrated and dare I say subjective. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by DCLeague

[Sakura12]

I wonder if they'll give Caitlin Killer Frost's actual powers with her need to fatally absorb heat from others to survive. 

[Hook75]

Why the obsession with a TEAM? Why must Barry have a team? It ruined Arrow for me and now The Flash.

[ParadoxLost]

4 hours ago, DCLeague said:

Having a pre-planned couples' trajectory is organic, this whole chemistry thing is overrated and dare I say subjective. 

I think planned is the key word.  I get the sense that the CW shows throw the comic book love interest into the show because they feel they must but then have no idea what to do with them.

[CabotCove]

Quote

I think planned is the key word.  I get the sense that the CW shows throw the comic book love interest into the show because they feel they must but then have no idea what to do with them.

replying in Relationship thread

Edited October 13, 2016 by DCLeague

[BkWurm1]

Quote

This is all on Arrow, Im sure they made this decision, The Flash wouldnt even have made such a show altering decision without their permission anyhow.

Here's my perspective.  But without The Flash doing this story line, they couldn't have made the change.  And to really piss me off, then Flashpoint on The Flash pretty much a big let down.  So I suffer in my other show because of a storyline decision here (Flashpoint) and then The Flash doesn't even reach the storyline's potential.  Instead it just used it for a bunch of lazy plot and character changes. 

And I thought light switching was the worst thing a show could do.  Nope, topped that.  Arrow didn't even have the dignity to tell it's own viewers what it did to Baby Sara. 

[Kromm]

Did the show really dodge Cisco being mad at Barry by the simple expedience of him NOT FINDING OUT THAT HIS BROTHER WASN'T DEAD IN THE OTHER TIMELINE? Cheese and crackers! Not like that's not going to come back to haunt Barry... Riiiiiight? Short of horribly lazy writing, I mean.

[Potanical Pardon]

I'm still wondering what happened to this new timeline's Harrison Wells. I'm also still wondering how Thawne was able to jump back in time carrying Barry from Flashpoint timeline AND jumping forward in time to now when that Thawne is supposed to not be able to to time-jump anymore...which was why he killed Wells, face-changed and had to wait for Barry to grow up, become The Flash and run around in the collider.

I'm glad Barry's getting called out on his crap, though. And I'm hoping Thawne's inside-joke has something to do with all these timejumps having to happen to explain away how he exists even though for some reason Eddie shooting himself made that Thawne disappear. And whatever this is should also explain how the Thawne that killed Barry's mom existed from a timeline where Barry became The Flash in 2020 or whatever year it was which may or may not have had a dead Nora.

I also still want to know why Barry in only the Flashpoint Universe had those speed-headaches. And why it doesn't happen with him, Thawne, Jay Garrick and whoever else has timehopped through the Speed Force (I'll grant Legends of Tomorrow a pass). And why it's not happening to him now.

And why the hell would altering timelines suddenly cause the current timeline's residents to acquire Flashpoint timeline's superpowers if they had them there? I can buy the logic of it happening now since this is the point in time over there Barry and Thawne left; fine, that explains the convenience for the story. Flashpoint Wally got his powers from the lightning and I guess the same chemical bath Barry had except they were all in his car. Whatever, but okay. And Caitlyn got her powers from...the accelerator over there? I'm all for the lightning being the real factor in both Wally and Barry as that is the comics' reason, and the chemical bath or in the show's case chemical bath/accelerator being the catalyst for them, while Jesse and other speedsters access to the Speed Force is by other means, but an accelerator in the Flashpoint timeline is the only non-messy way I can think of to tie in Barry inadvertently to the people who are now going to start showing up with powers.

[maxineofarc]

4 hours ago, Kromm said:

Did the show really dodge Cisco being mad at Barry by the simple expedience of him NOT FINDING OUT THAT HIS BROTHER WASN'T DEAD IN THE OTHER TIMELINE? Cheese and crackers! Not like that's not going to come back to haunt Barry... Riiiiiight? Short of horribly lazy writing, I mean.

I think that finding that out would have made him go ballistic in the current timeline, but him not finding that out wasn't really a factor in his starting to mend fences with Barry. Hopefully Cisco is just starting to accept that Barry can't fix everything and he'll start to heal.

I really hope we get a decent storyline out of this with Caitlin, if only to demonstrate that somebody working on this show notices that there are female characters on it. I'm not thrilled about the leap forward with Cisco's powers, because I thought their sparing deployment in season 2 was a good way to deal with Suddenly Superheroes and he now seems to have developed them much further. Not entirely sure I signed up for a team of superheroes with this show; I like it when it's Barry and then a bunch of smart but basically normal people, so I am giving both of them the side-eye right now.

[zannej]

10 hours ago, Potanical Pardon said:

I'm still wondering what happened to this new timeline's Harrison Wells. I'm also still wondering how Thawne was able to jump back in time carrying Barry from Flashpoint timeline AND jumping forward in time to now when that Thawne is supposed to not be able to to time-jump anymore...which was why he killed Wells, face-changed and had to wait for Barry to grow up, become The Flash and run around in the collider.

I'm glad Barry's getting called out on his crap, though. And I'm hoping Thawne's inside-joke has something to do with all these timejumps having to happen to explain away how he exists even though for some reason Eddie shooting himself made that Thawne disappear. And whatever this is should also explain how the Thawne that killed Barry's mom existed from a timeline where Barry became The Flash in 2020 or whatever year it was which may or may not have had a dead Nora.

I also still want to know why Barry in only the Flashpoint Universe had those speed-headaches. And why it doesn't happen with him, Thawne, Jay Garrick and whoever else has timehopped through the Speed Force (I'll grant Legends of Tomorrow a pass). And why it's not happening to him now.

And why the hell would altering timelines suddenly cause the current timeline's residents to acquire Flashpoint timeline's superpowers if they had them there? I can buy the logic of it happening now since this is the point in time over there Barry and Thawne left; fine, that explains the convenience for the story. Flashpoint Wally got his powers from the lightning and I guess the same chemical bath Barry had except they were all in his car. Whatever, but okay. And Caitlyn got her powers from...the accelerator over there? I'm all for the lightning being the real factor in both Wally and Barry as that is the comics' reason, and the chemical bath or in the show's case chemical bath/accelerator being the catalyst for them, while Jesse and other speedsters access to the Speed Force is by other means, but an accelerator in the Flashpoint timeline is the only non-messy way I can think of to tie in Barry inadvertently to the people who are now going to start showing up with powers.

I'm also wondering what happened with Harrison Wells and the Eobard who must have gotten stuck in the past. How did that happen since things were changed?

My guess on why current Eobard didn't deplete his speed while traveling this time is because he just spent 3 months chilling in a cell and wasn't having to exert himself much. I believe that the one who got stuck had gone back from 2024 during an epic battle with Barry and other heroes. He was actively fighting Barry while running in addition to time traveling-- so it probably took a lot out of him.

They are inconsistent about the nature of speed powers though. Because in one episode they said the speed is there on a genetic level and it can't just be taken away-- but we had Eobard losing his connection to the speedforce sporadically. Perhaps taking a different body was affecting how the speedforce worked for him.

We don't know for sure that Jay and Eobard haven't gotten the headaches/dizziness from time travel muckery. Eobard did not seem the least bit surprised when he was watching Barry struggle, so I think it is actually likely that he went through it himself on at least one occasion.

On a side note, I find it amusing that this version of Eobard abbreviated Barry's name to "Bear" but the Wells version was much more formal.

I wonder if Cisco will get vibe visions of himself in the other timeline where he was super-rich and somewhat douchey. I do want to see if Harry will have any reaction to learning that Cisco lost his brother (if they remember to bring it up).

Good question about how things ended up changed in this timeline. I have no idea.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ha, I was totally cracking up over Dawson's Creek on the tv in the diner! I already knew they were in the 90s because "Runaway Train" was playing.

JWS's teeth were so white that they reminded me of when Ross got his teeth whitened on Friends.

[benteen]

I watched Supergirl today and it's yet another superhero show that is better and more fun than The Flash.  Seriously, I think The Flash is the fourth best of the CW superhero shows.  That's how badly they've allowed this show to decline creatively since the end of Season 1.

[Trini]

A bit about Julian that I don't think has been mentioned: Cisco mentioned that they've known him "for a while". Do they know him as a metahuman expert from CCPD, or (my spec) do they know him from STAR Labs? What if he worked there before the particle accelerator explosion? Related to that I wonder how Julian got that title of 'Metahuman CSI Specialist' when metahumans have only been around for two and-a-half years? And he's only been at CCPD one year.

[Trini]

We'll see how things shake out in the upcoming episodes, but they might actually be serious about Iris doing more this season. She's got her own office at CCPN, and access to security footage. It looks like Wally is going to be the superfluous team member this time. (Until he gets his powers.)

I keep thinking, is Cisco really the type of person to demand that Barry reverse time to save his brother? Even if so, it seems somewhat out of character for him to hold a grudge about it. Maybe he's still in the bargaining stage of grief. I'm hoping that between that and Caitlin's powers developing, they show more of the Cisco/Caitlin friendship.

[zannej]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

We'll see how things shake out in the upcoming episodes, but they might actually be serious about Iris doing more this season. She's got her own office at CCPN, and access to security footage. It looks like Wally is going to be the superfluous team member this time. (Until he gets his powers.)

I keep thinking, is Cisco really the type of person to demand that Barry reverse time to save his brother? Even if so, it seems somewhat out of character for him to hold a grudge about it. Maybe he's still in the bargaining stage of grief. I'm hoping that between that and Caitlin's powers developing, they show more of the Cisco/Caitlin friendship.

I was sad that Cisco was so upset and angry at Barry, but I do know that grief can make people behave in uncharacteristic ways. People tend to not be at their best. Ration and logic go out the window. I think Cisco is sort of projecting on Barry because he's upset with himself for not having a better relationship with Dante before he died. Nevermind that he'd made an effort and Dante was a dick about it.

[KirkB]

I can understand where Cisco is coming from. Grief can make you feel helpless. Normally a loved one dies and that's that, nothing can be done about it. But Cisco is in a pretty unique position. He is personal friends with someone who actually COULD do something about it. Yes, there are myriad reasons why he SHOULDN'T, but logic and grief don't always mix.