S03.E02: Paradox

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Barry realizes the effects from Flashpoint are much greater than he thought. Meanwhile, Barry meets new co-worker Julian Albert and is surprised by Julian's immediate disdain for Barry.

[maczero]

Even though I don't like some of the changes to this timeline (gloomy Cisco and baby Sarah not existing), I'm glad that Barry didn't go back in time to fix those changes.

[Lokiberry]

Fuck you, Barry for Baby Sara and Dante. At least Jay slapped some sense into him (unfortunately without any actual slapping).

Edited October 12, 2016 by Lokiberry

[catrice2]

I take it that somehow Alchemy is going to fix the timeline...and erase this Barry and Iris kiss??

[mtlchick]

Dante being gone? Meh.  Sara being gone?  DEAL BREAKER, BARRY! 

When Barry started drawing on the board, I had Back To The Future 2 flashbacks and then I expected Doc Brown to jump in on explaining the shifting time lines.   But I liked that it finally dawned on Barry that he cannot keep playing fast and loose with everything.  There are repercussions.  And robbing Iris of that kiss twice? DUDE.  Stop being a moron!

Finally...1998?  Dawson's Creek?  I see what you did there, show.   

[Lantern7]

As nice a guy as Barry is, I wouldn't mind if Cisco created a perpetual motion machine for the specific purpose of slapping Barry upside the head forever. What sucks is that Team Flash isn't going to be dysfunctional, and that they're patching things up for Barry's sake. That's the guy who fucked up the timeline. Not getting why we'd get John Jr. instead of Sara. Different conception date, maybe?

I'm okay with Caitlin, and I don't think we need her as Killer Frost. Then again, she seems to be the most "blah" character on the show. At least Wally could be a speedster.

Man, I watch Timeless, and I don't think the timeline gets as messed up as what Barry does to his.

[lion10]

I'm all for forgiveness but Barry literally ruined everyone's lives.

[cambridgeguy]

Barry got off pretty easy - Iris and Joe have repaired their relationship, Cisco is thawing out, and Iris still wants to start a relationship.  Sure, he's still got Draco Malfoy as a coworker (and maybe he's the guy under the Dr. Alchemy mask) and maybe Killer Frost powers will drive Caitlin towards the dark side, but all in all that's not bad.

[Guest]

Hasn't Barry learned the no messing with the timeline lesson before?  I expect it to last until, oh, about the next mid or season finale.

Not that I think Barry should continue to mess with timeline.  But is there a reason why they had to go with the most depressing, angst, emo ridden timeline?

[Lisin]

10 minutes ago, mtlchick said:

Finally...1998?  Dawson's Creek?  I see what you did there, show.   

That Dawson's Creek reference ("Flash" heh) was everything! I actually yelled and then had to pause the show to shout about it. 

[Actionmage]

Quote

I take it that somehow Alchemy is going to fix the timeline...and erase this Barry and Iris kiss??

Please no.^

I am glad that someone finally told Barry that he was not acting heroic. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you have to all the freaking time.

Also, was that the third or fourth time someone told Barry in simple language to fix the mistake(s) and he decided to meddle in the day-to-day of "Not His 'Original' " team? (Felicity, I love ya, but the lactose intolerance probably don't like pudding much. Just sayin'.) I did like the inclusion of Cisco's scene where he is angry at Barry's refusal to (essentially) bring back Dante. It was a good scene, but I felt the end line was a bit clunky. Barry hoping that Cisco can move forward too was rich coming from Barry. Yes, Mr. Allen has finally gotten to where he thinks he can move on, but really? Timing!

I loved that there seems to be a bit more depth to the team, but I feel that it was a cheap way to get there, especially as nothing was really wrong with them in the first place. The changes feel like TPTB trying to please folks who didn't like cheerful, upbeat Cisco and that Caitlin needed powers. Now, there are potentially great stories with the way things are now, but I didn't feel that stuff was too broken. (I am disappointed that Iris isn't a cop, but I can deal with that by interesting Draco Malfoy being a suspicious CSI. I know, right?)

I just hope that Iris is given more to do, character-wise, as the season rolls on. It was just Episode 2, so I can wait a little longer. 

I just am not sure how much I trust the show. I'm somewhere between Iris' faith in Barry and Draco's non-trust. Here's hoping I can move closer to the Iris end of the spectrum!

[bmoore4026]

Barry broke Cisco.  Not cool.

[SimoneS]

15 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

I take it that somehow Alchemy is going to fix the timeline...and erase this Barry and Iris kiss??

That is exactly what I expect. The writers on this show are so freaking lazy and unimaginative.

[benteen]

Once again, Barry's selfish stupidity set in motion the entire threat of the Season.  I don't consider Barry a hero for putting out the fires he stared.  All these threats are because of the fire he started.

Of course Barry's enablers forgive him.  Especially when they have every reason not to.

Nice seeing John Wesley Shipp and the Dawson's Creek cameo was great.  But I was distracted by Shipp's bright white fake teeth.

Very cool having Tom Felton on the show.  I like Julian and the fact that his character doesn't like Barry makes me like him even more.

I'm glad that Caitlin retained her powers.  But of course she's keeping it a secret because they ALL love keeping secrets from each other for no reason.

[Scarlett45]

38 minutes ago, Lokiberry said:

Fuck you, Barry for Baby Sara and Dante. At least Jay slapped some sense into him (unfortunately without any actual slapping).

I'm lost, who are Baby Sara and Dante?!!

[Jediknight]

No more baby Sara, and Dante's dead?  We've got to be getting the original timeline back in the crossover, but Alchemy will merge some stuff.  There's no way all of this is sticking around.

[mtlchick]

Quote

I'm lost, who are Baby Sara and Dante?!!

Dante is Cisco's brother that we saw last season.  Sara is Diggle's baby on Arrow (edit; well before Barry messed that up.  Hopefully that will get echoed on Arrow soon enough.) 

Edited October 12, 2016 by mtlchick
clarifying statement.

[BkWurm1]

23 minutes ago, lion10 said:

I'm all for forgiveness but Barry literally ruined everyone's lives.

I was SOOOOOOOO happy that Iris was actually getting a chance to be mad about her father lying to her about her mother being dead.  And then they took it away from me almost as fast as they gave it.  I guess I can be pleased that the show allowed her a reasonable amount of time to process her anger even if they found a way to do it all off screen and in a new timeline we never saw (but have to live with)

When I think about it, it really is insane that TPTB found a way to make broad changes with no obligation to explain or set any of them up.  You know the past two years that you watched?  Nothing you are sure of can ever be counted on anymore cause Flashpoint.  They now have permission to retcon anything in season one or two.  It seriously lessens my enjoyment. 

There is no set reality anymore.  We don't know what really happened.  The Flash team members didn't want to know how their lives were different 

You can't even explain this show to friends anymore without saying "Oh and in season three Barry changed the timeline so all that stuff you watched doesn't count anymore. 

17 minutes ago, Lisin said:

That Dawson's Creek reference ("Flash" heh) was everything! I actually yelled and then had to pause the show to shout about it. 

Ha!  Dawson's Creek, a show I didn't even watch, was so representative of the 90's that is wasn't until the episode was over did I remember the Berlanti connection, lol.

[SnoGirl]

I'm never not going to see Tom Felton as Draco. Every time him and Barry spoke, all I could hear was him saying "Potter" after everything.

"I dont like things I can't trust...Potter."

Has Cisco or Caitlin ever dropped a Harry Potter reference? I hope the show does it, I would just squeal if they did.

Cisco has the most valid point about time-travel, why was it okay for Barry to do it for his family but not others. I have been waiting for that plot-point and I'm glad its Cisco who is going to teach Barry that lesson.

It totally got hot in my house when Cisco joined the superhero party. Anyone else have that problem?

[BkWurm1]

5 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

No more baby Sara, and Dante's dead?  We've got to be getting the original timeline back in the crossover, but Alchemy will merge some stuff.  There's no way all of this is sticking around.

I don't think this is going away.  Clearly Wally will be husked and will get his Kid Flash powers that way.  But there's nothing to undo with Iris and her Dad anymore.  And Cisco, if he hasn't already gotten over it, will have learned that Barry was right about time travel by the time the season ends.  And they can't reset the show at the end of the season cause that would mean that all three seasons can be retconned at any time. 

 

1 minute ago, mtlchick said:

Dante is Cisco's brother that we saw last season.  Sara is Diggle's baby on Arrow. 

Was.  Was Diggle's daughter on Arrow.  This casual and clueless misogyny does not bode well for Caitlin's outcome. 

[calliope1975]

What's more infuriating is that TPTB won't even realize why there are people upset about changing Sara to a boy. Barry should lose friends over this stunt. Sorry, stunts, since he never seems to learn his lesson. Hero, my ass. I hope this time he finally does learn, but I think I won't be around watching to find out. 

[BkWurm1]

28 minutes ago, bmoore4026 said:

Barry broke Cisco.  Not cool.

What's so incredibly frustrating is that Dante dying and Cisco begging Barry to go back in time and save him would actually have been a complicated and compelling and heartbreaking storyline.  And they skipped past all of it but seem to be keeping the character change/growth. 

It's such crap writing to not show on the show the major things in the character's life that impacts and changes them. 

Same thing with Caitlin.  This damn Flashpoint storyline gives them the freedom to make her go evil even though it's completely out of character.  Well it was before, but we don't know the truth about any of these characters anymore.

Except for Barry.  But knowing Barry is pretty much the worst isn't helpful. 

[srpturtle80]

10 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

Has Cisco or Caitlin ever dropped a Harry Potter reference? I hope the show does it, I would just squeal if they did.

 

I'm pretty sure Cisco shouted "expecto patronum" when he was up on the roof of Star Labs when they were recreating the particular accelerator explosion last season. 

I laughed out loud when I saw that Dawson's Creek was playing in the diner that Papa Leery took Barry to. Man I loved that show. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by srpturtle80

[BkWurm1]

I wonder if they brought in the new guy that doesn't like Barry to give us someone to root for. 

[Guest]

It felt a lot like an excuse to build a super hero team. Because every show needs a super hero team now.  You can't have a super hero and normal people.

[TobinAlbers]

33 minutes ago, Actionmage said:

Felicity, I love ya, but the lactose intolerance probably don't like pudding much. Just sayin'.)

I take Lactaid or use Lactaid milk to make pudding :)

Loved Barry going to talk it out with Felicity (still ship those two but know it'll never happen unless in another Alt-Earth).

Jay literally yanking Barry out of the time stream to give him a good talking to was great. I haven't been riding Barry as hard as everyone else about his time travel jaunts but when that portal opened and I realized that he was about to go back in time AGAIN I nearly threw something at the tv.

I like that Jay wasn't coming at Barry like a gentle father but as the true older, wiser speedster we thought Zoomposter's Jay was gonna be last season and he wasn't letting Barry off the hook. I am intrigued with what he fuztzed around with in the time line that he couldn't fix and thus learned his lesson the hard way.

Died at John Wesley Shipp's other TV son getting a cameo.

Adored Felton's intro. And he makes sense about why he doesn't like him- if he's observant Barry doesn't add up and with all the odd things in CC it pays to not trust things that are hinky.

Iris was really playing mama bear of the team and it suits her. She first tried to get Barry to tell her what was up alone instead of going at him with the group. Then she owned her own anger at her dad and moved past it to show the team they could and should move past their anger too. She's the unifier very much like Felicity is on Arrow. Loved the scene of her and Barry on the porch at the end like an old married couple although they need to stop lighting kisses from behind with that big old streetlight. They did it a lot for Olicity on Arrow and it was annoying after a while.

After Iris morning Eddie and Caitlin mourning Ronnie not once but twice, I wasn't feeling Cisco being sad about his brother. I know I should be but I was ready for him to need to leave to take some me time if he kept the mopes up.

Loved that they had Barry recognize that he's wiped 2 kisses with Iris from existence and it sucks.

[quarks]

Eh.

Good things:

1. Loving Mr. Draco Malfoy over here. Partly, I admit, because right now I kinda need someone other than Felicity, Cisco and Jay Garrick yelling at/not liking Barry, but mostly because he seems like a lot of fun.  Really liked that he caught Barry's slip up there, and held him to it - it was nice to see Barry facing at least a few more consequences than "guilt trip" this episode. But I'm jumping forward to bad things already.

2. Totally cracked up that Draco Malfoy's first appearance happened in an episode with a guy walking around in a Death Eater mask.

3. Speaking of Death Eater guy, kinda liking Alchemy so far.

4.  And yay, Captain Singh is back, so that's another plus.

5. YAY! REAL JAY GARRICK IS BACK AND KNOWS EVERYTHING AND IS WILLING TO YELL AT BARRY FOR ME. YAY JAY GARRICK.

6. Really liked Cisco calling Barry out on the "it's ok to go back in time to rescue your family, but not mine?" Especially since, had Barry not gone back in time to rescue his mother, and then back in time again to kill his mother, Cisco's brother would still be alive.

7. I don't want to get too optimistic here, but did we get a hint that Caitlin might have a plot of her own this season that is not related to her falling for a guy? Maybe?

Questionable things:

1. So, did Caitlin have powers in Flashpoint, and if so, was she just secretly pretending to be a mild mannered, ignorant eye doctor, or are the ice powers a new, non-Flashpoint related thing?

I did like the subtle touch of her defending Barry with the "We all have secrets," only to have her secret revealed a few moments later.

2. Dawson's Creek, Berlanti? Really? I mean, yeah, sure, it shouldn't have been difficult for YOU to get the rights, but….

3. It was cute, but I still had problems believing that both Iris and Joe would happen to be looking away, and quiet, for just long enough for Barry to get the answers he needed, and that neither one of them would notice the suspicious breaks in time before Barry answered. Iris is supposed to be a reporter and Joe is a cop and they both know Barry has superspeed; even if they were working/distracted, they both should have been more suspicious.

4. Uh, why did Iris need her father to speak about husk deaths when Barry was bringing evidence over to Star Labs? By all appearances Iris was getting along fine with the rest of Team Flash, so why didn't she use her contacts there to get info for her article?

5. Speaking of Iris, I continue to like her more than this show seems to, with yet another episode where Iris' only role is to listen to Barry, cheer on Barry, and enable Barry, though at least this time she got to briefly jump on Barry - though since pretty much everyone else in this episode was doing the exact same thing, that was kinda lost. At least we did get to briefly see her working at a desk, but is there any chance of giving Iris something to do beyond just being Barry's cheerleader/love interest?

Bad things

1. Look, I like Arrow, and I like Felicity, but a) why was Barry talking to Felicity and not his own team about this, b) how did Felicity not know that the brother of one of her friends had died? Yes, I know the actual reason was "Barry needed to try to explain the plot," but that did not make Felicity look good here.

2. On a related note, Arrow, Flash, why are important character developments for Arrow characters – Felicity admitting/realizing that she couldn't date Barry because of her feelings for Oliver, Laurel getting her Canary Cry, Dig having a different kid – happening on Flash, not Arrow?  I like these crossovers, but the character development stuff should be staying on Arrow.  

3.  Speaking of those scenes, wow. We are only on episode two, and already, Flash is having entire scenes on an Arrow set, reused its location set from last episode, featured one of Arrow's favorite yellow cars, and headed right back to a warehouse. And this is the show with the better budget. Yikes.

4. Rival - still boring. His mask - still ridiculous. 

5. Why do all of these speedsters have this huge thing about which one of them is the fastest? For once, I'd like to see a couple of them battle it out to see who can take the longest time to finish up a pizza or something.

6. WTF, plot. So, Barry has only been in the new timeline for a couple of days, and yet, the script has everyone mad at him for not telling them the truth for months. Except that new timeline Barry couldn't have told them anything for months, because he didn't know and....you know what? I'm dropping this because it's confusing.  

7. WTF, plot. How did Barry's mother dying just a few seconds later in this timeline cause any of the effects you created?

8. WTF, plot. Flash, I get that you don't want Barry running around changing time because it brings up problems like this, but have you already forgotten that Barry's previous time changes have had mixed effects, not completely bad effects? The first time, he stopped a tidal wave from destroying Central City, and another time, he and slight changes stopped Vandal Savage from killing everyone in Central City. So why try to say now that changing time always has bad effects, or are you trying to say that everyone is worse off because Central City wasn't destroyed?

9. WTF, plot. Team Flash knows Barry can travel through time and change the current timeline. This was made a plot point just last season. So, when Barry shows up at Star Labs, clearly unaware of why Cisco is depressed and that Joe and Iris aren't talking to each other, why doesn't it occur to a single character that just maybe, Barry has been time travelling again?

10. WTF, Barry. I know your friends just said that they didn't want to know about the alternate timeline. Fair enough. But. You know that Alchemy is targeting people who had powers in Flashpoint. You know that Wally had powers in Flashpoint. And yet you're choosing not to tell Wally that he could be the target of this year's Big Bad?  What is this, Barry?

11. WTF, Barry. I know you'd just met Draco Malfoy, but even that brief meeting should have told you that you were dealing with a relatively intelligent guy, and you think he won't notice that you're stealing evidence?

12. SERIOUSLY WTF, BARRY.  Leaving aside all of the warnings from Reverse-Flash that you just had last episode, your response to learning that going back in time screwed things up for Joe, Iris, Cisco and Diggle was to TRY TO GO BACK IN TIME AGAIN? What made you think that this wouldn't just make things even worse? And that's without even including the not so small problem that once again you were choosing to change people's lives without talking to them about it. 

13. And back to WTF, show. So -

Thanks to Barry zipping back yet again and saving/not saving his mother, Cisco's brother is dead, Caitlin is turning into a popsicle, Draco Malfoy appears to be stuck in a job he hates, Wally is now the target of Doctor Alchemy, and Felicity had to waste valuable time yelling at Barry/giving him a pep talk instead of hunting down criminals, which in Star City, guarantees that at least two more redshirt cops have died. Which is to say, actual people suffered thanks to Barry's time travel. 

Barry?

Got a guilt trip, a few tears, and in the end - got to kiss the girl.

Grr.

[thuganomics85]

What?!  Barry wiped Baby Sara out of existence?  You are a monster, Barry!  A monster!  OK, yeah, I know he certainly didn't do that on purpose, but why did the writers think this was a great idea at all?!  Even looking past Baby Sara, I'm just now wondering how far his reach?  Just how many lives has Barry possibly fucked over, because of his selfishness?  Doubt the show will ever explore it.

Anyway, the new world continues be a bit different, with Cisco in mourning over Dante dying (and pissed at Barry for not stopping it), Iris is mad at Joe because of him lying about her mother, and Caitlin is..... well, mainly Caitlin except she now has the Killer Frost powers, which is cool.  Barry almost tries to go back in time AGAIN, but Jay finally shows up to tell him to cut the crap (second best option, behind the Legions of Tomorrow team showing up, and Barry getting his ass kicked by Sara and Mick.)  But, hey, everyone already forgives him, so it ain't no thing.  He even gets to kiss Iris again, and maybe this one will actually stick!  Ha!

Draco Malfoy in the house!  He's already becoming one of my favorites, since he doesn't trust Barry any farther then he can throw him.  Smart man.  They will probably make him evil as all get out, but whatever.  Team Draco!

So, Dr. Alchemy is the potential big bad this season, and his plan is to recreate all the metahumans from Flashpoint, that don't have powers here. Not the best start with The Rival though.  He's already gone.  And, so goes another former Spartacus actor.

I did like the meta references, like Harry Potter being quoted in Tom Felton's first episode, and especially the show of freaking Dawson during the Jay/Barry scene, from John Wesley Shipp's other well-known role!

Felicity was used well in this episode.  Excepting comparing Barry to pudding.  What did pudding ever do to you, Felicity?!

But, hey, did I mention that Grant Gustin is awesome and somehow makes me not find Barry the worst person on the planet?  Maybe only just Central City.  Still, that takes talent!

[ottoDbusdriver]

So, is this Jay Garrick the Jay Garrick from Earth 3 or Earth 4 or Earth 5 from the events of Season 2 BEFORE Barry went back and saved his mom ?  Does he have memories of Zoom ?  Because parallel worlds and alternate realities are two different things.

How did he know to intercept Barry in 1998 on Barry's trip back in time (but not in the previous trip) ?  Did the speedforce tell him ? 

It's a little confusing.

[JasmineFlower]

Not feeling this season. Wasn't in love with the end of last either, but this really isn't working for me thus far. Really wouldn't mind ditching British office mate sooner than later. I couldn't imagine being less interested in Cisco, but sad sack Cisco is worse than the original. I'd like the other one back, at least he had a positive energy and excitement to him.

The best thing I can say about this episode is that it had more clarity than the season premiere, but I found myself wishing for a return to Season 1 while watching as I have entirely too much lately with The Flash.

[maczero]

4 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

What?!  Barry wiped Baby Sara out of existence?  You are a monster, Barry!  A monster!  OK, yeah, I know he certainly didn't do that on purpose, but why did the writers think this was a great idea at all?!  Even looking past Baby Sara, I'm just now wondering how far his reach?  Just how many lives has Barry possibly fucked over, because of his selfishness?  Doubt the show will ever explore it.

Felicity was used well in this episode.  Excepting comparing Barry to pudding.  What did pudding ever do to you, Felicity?!

 

I find pudding disgusting so the comparison works for me.

[Lady Calypso]

I'll be honest; when the Barry/Iris fourth first kiss happened, I was waiting for Barry to get pulled back through the speed force, erasing the kiss yet again. 

So, Barry comes back to his timeline, but it's not his timeline and we're never getting that timeline back. No baby Sara, Cisco's brother is dead, and who knows what other changes. I can see a possible recurring theme this season of Barry discovering small details that have been changed and we can see his WTF face in a scene every once in a while. 

Caitlin is becoming Killer Frost. I'm guessing that's a new, non-Flashpoint issue. I figured that they would find a way to make Killer Frost more than a cameo. With Flashpoint, it gives them the perfect excuse to do it. Well, I mean, on the one hand, we have a lot of metahumans now on the show. Wally is on his way to becoming Kid Flash in this new timeline, Cisco has found a way to use his powers as Vibe,

Spoiler

and Jesse is set to become Jesse Quick when she comes back to E1 with Harry

But on the other hand, Caitlin's storylines have revolved around men and her love life so much that having this not be the case is surprisingly refreshing. Plus, we haven't had a whole lot of female metahumans; at least ones that stick around for longer than a couple of episodes. And she's not another speedster. 

So, they're trying harder with Iris, at least. They're giving her speeches and more of a hero role. I appreciate the attempt, even if they still have a long way to go. I'm glad there got to be repercussions in this timeline with Joe lying to her about her mom. It happened off-screen, mind you, but the consequences lasted for a few months. Same with Cisco being pissed at Barry and calling him out on his selfishness. I do think there's still a ways to go with both sides, but I don't know if I could handle mopey Cisco or Iris/Joe not being on speaking terms. I'd like to see tension with both parties for a while longer, but I don't mind them being on the road to mending those relationships.

Jay Garrick! Yes! Welcome back for a couple of scenes! And he might actually stick around and pop in to be the new Harrison Wells, so that's great. I'm just happy he stopped Barry from ruining the timeline yet again. For all we know, if he had gone back, the new timeline could have consisted of evil metahuman Iris, a dead Felicity, and no Team Flash. 

So, Mr. Julian Malfoy (I totally forget what last name they gave in the episode) is Barry's new/old coworker and he hates Barry. I love him already. Barry deserves a human enemy. His own Rival of sorts.

Speaking of Rival, is he gone now? Or will Dr. Alchemy bring him back when he's needed the most? I like Dr. Alchemy. He's trying to restore the actual original timeline...well, as close to the original as he can get. I mean, it can't work that well, but he's starting with restoring metahumans, so I assume we'll see Wally get his powers again at some point. Probably his choice to save Barry or Iris or Joe's lives.  

Well, we'll see what happens, I guess. 

[Hook75]

Julian is the Alchemy? right?

[TDT]

Good episode,loved the Felicity cameo..

Dr Wells coming back,hopefully to put everybody in check next week..and now instead of Barry,he'll be saying "Run Jessie,Run!" lol

So when Killer Frost finally reveals herself,fingers crossed it will be in an episode where Wentworth Miller makes his grand return as Captain Cold

[blugirlami21]

Interesting episode.  I do think that things are being cleared up much too clearly for my taste.  Flashpoint should have lasted a least two episodes and I would have liked for everyone to be mad at Barry for more than half an episode.  But I digress.  I liked the episode for the most part.  I don't think I'm as hard on Barry as other posters seemed to be.  I think considering Barry's personality and the trauma he has endured in such a short period of time that it's only natural for him to want to try to create a happier reality for himself.  He ultimately realized that it was the wrong choice for him to make and tried to change it back only to be faced with the reality that things were still not back to normal.

Giving up the dream of his parents being in his life so that he could go back to his other family and realizing that it wasn't the family he left must have been really hard for Barry.  I'm so glad that Jay stopped Barry from time traveling again and I do love that Dawson's Creek was on the tv in the diner.  

I don't blame Barry for going to talk to Felicity, they're friends.  I'm glad that they are still friends in this continuity.  Who else was he going to talk to?  He couldn't talk to his own friends and family because he wasn't ready to share what he had done.  I also don't blame Felicity for not knowing about Dante's death.  Her and Cisco aren't exactly what I would call bff's.

I too was disappointed in Cisco's attitude towards Barry about Dante's death.  If Dante was killed by a meta human and Barry failed to save him or Barry was somehow inadvertently the cause of Dante's death I think I would be a lot more sympathetic but he died in a car accident.  Unfortunately people die every day.  Who's to say that Dante wouldn't have had the same fate in the original timeline?  

I don't understand why Caitlin isn't saying anything about her powers?  Caitlin is a scientist above all else and we just found out that people are being changed into metahumans by Dr. Alchemy.  That's the perfect time to share I would think.  I also think that Barry might want to mention that Wally was a speedster in flashpoint.  He could be a target.

And I don't necessarily agree that people's lives were ruined in the new timeline.  Their lives are definitely different but ruined?  It would definitely have to be judged on a case by case basis.  I would hazard to say that maybe some people's lives are better in the new timeline.

I'm glad that Barry and Iris are finally moving forward with their romantic relationship and that they finally had a kiss that was not erased.  

[benteen]

Quote

And I don't necessarily agree that people's lives were ruined in the new timeline.

Tell that to Sara Diggle.

It's horrifying what they've done to her.  Barry truly is a monster and the villain of this series.

[ruby24]

I enjoyed this episode quite a bit. I agree that everything was resolved a bit quickly by the end, but I liked seeing Barry try to fix things and failing. Personally, I've been so ready to see a lighter, Season 1-esque tone again that I'm glad we don't have to spend too much time on estrangement between the characters.

I'm glad Barry and Iris are moving forward too, but I'm gonna need some tongue in their next kiss.

I really like Tom Felton's character a lot already. He fits right in as an antagonist, imo.

Edited October 12, 2016 by ruby24

[catrice2]

I would like for Barry and Iris to have a romantic interaction fitting of 20 something year olds, not two kids in middle school.

Cisco annoys me in any timeline. 

I'm also sick of Wells in any timeline.  A little interested in Julian.  Did they show Singh at all? 

[SimoneS]

3 minutes ago, benteen said:

Tell that to Sara Diggle.

It's horrifying what they've done to her.  Barry truly is a monster and the villain of this series.

This is exactly why I am convinced that some way, probably through Alchemy, this will change back by the end of the season. The Flash fans who don't watch Arrow probably don't think that wiping out Sara is a big deal, but it will be to the Arrow fans so the writers must have a plan to fix this.

[Last Time Lord]

Hey, Barry? Come here for a sec, would ya?

[zannej]

I think the Arrow writers gave Diggle a daughter long before they thought of the idea that the would have Diggle's son turn out to be Connor Hawke in the future. Rather than just give Diggle a second child, they decided to retcon it and make Sara a boy instead. Sad.

For those saying that Dante would still be alive if Barry hadn't changed the timeline: We don't know that. Even if Barry had never gone back and changed things, Dante still could have been killed. I can actually understand why Cisco was upset though. It's possible that if Dante lived, then both of Cisco's parents would have been killed-- or Cisco himself could have been. Too bad they can't have Cisco try to use his powers to try to foresee possible outcomes if Barry did change things.

I'm hoping that Tom Felton's character doesn't turn out to be Dr. Alchemy. It would be too obvious. It sounded like Caitlin and Cisco liked him, so I wonder what their interactions were like.

I was meh about the Rival in the previous episode. I actually felt bad for him at the end of the episode when he was attacked in his cell though. Btw, it was nice to see that they finally remembered that metahumans have to use the bathroom too. That industrial sink/toilet combo was probably not cheap.

When Felicity told Barry to go fix things, I wanted to see him say "How?" because it isn't clear exactly what he would have to do to fix things.

I was sad not to see Tom Cavanagh in this episode at all, but am glad he'll be in the next one.

I, too, noticed JWS's super-white teeth and was distracted. I saw the Dawson's Creek thing on the TV and didn't think much of it. I was overseas in the 90s and never saw a single episode of it. It was only after people mentioned it here that I remembered someone said JWS was on it.

I do think the time travel element and how things would differ if you changed something is a very intriguing concept. There are quite a few things where I would love a do-over. I often think about how different life would be if I could go back in time and change certain events. I wonder what the unexpected side effects would be.

I was glad that Iris decided to just let go of her anger toward her dad, but it did seem like everyone just moved on a little too quickly in some regards. But then, I didn't want them to dwell on the negative stuff.

I do agree that Wally should be told that he had powers in the other universe just so he can be aware that he might be a target. But then, maybe Barry thinks he's only going after villains.

[blugirlami21]

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Tell that to Sara Diggle.

It's horrifying what they've done to her.  Barry truly is a monster and the villain of this series.

I feel sad about to an extent but it does explain why Diggle had a son and not a daughter in TLOT Arrow future.  Maybe Sara Diggle will be their second child instead of their first.  Maybe she won't.  I don't know I have a very pragmatic way of thinking about things most of the time and in this instance what's done is done.  The solution would be Barry attempting to change the timeline again and that might make it even worse.  I actually thought that Diggle was going to be childless when Barry reacted to the picture of him.  

[catrice2]

Veneers or implants.....for a lot of people they just look strange.  So far I do like the new season better than last season, but I am getting a little concerned.  They need to go back to the formula that worked.  

More Speedsters!!! Ugh!! 

[bookrat]

Did Dante die in the original timeline? I dont recall him dying. Why not tell Cisco Dante was still safe in the other timeline?

[catrice2]

They don't want to know.....right!!! 

[SimoneS]

14 minutes ago, blugirlami21 said:

I feel sad about to an extent but it does explain why Diggle had a son and not a daughter in TLOT Arrow future.  Maybe Sara Diggle will be their second child instead of their first.  Maybe she won't. 

I don't watch TLOT and only occasionally watch Arrow so I didn't know this. This is why I hate the crossovers and this universe sharing BS. I am rethinking giving The Flash another chance this season.

[catrice2]

Yes, that is the problem with all the crossovers....then you have to connect things so that they make sense, or make it clear from the start that they are in different universes.

I personally am fine with the show not following the comic. I am already sick of time travel and for me those were the episodes I have liked the least. 

I just want to see them defeat the bad guy of the week without all the romance, dead wives that are stiill alive, and people coming back as someone else. 

[CabotCove]

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What?!  Barry wiped Baby Sara out of existence?  You are a monster, Barry!  A monster! 

Eh its all on the Arrow writers, of all the changes they could have done they chose this.  The Flash/Flashpoint did not twist their hand. 

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I did like the meta references, like Harry Potter being quoted in Tom Felton's first episode,

What did I miss?

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 I don't think I'm as hard on Barry as other posters seemed to be.  I think considering Barry's personality and the trauma he has endured in such a short period of time that it's only natural for him to want to try to create a happier reality for himself.  He ultimately realized that it was the wrong choice for him to make and tried to change it back only to be faced with the reality that things were still not back to normal.

???

Edited October 12, 2016 by DCLeague

[BkWurm1]

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8. WTF, plot. Flash, I get that you don't want Barry running around changing time because it brings up problems like this, but have you already forgotten that Barry's previous time changes have had mixed effects, not completely bad effects? The first time, he stopped a tidal wave from destroying Central City, and another time, he and slight changes stopped Vandal Savage from killing everyone in Central City. So why try to say now that changing time always has bad effects, or are you trying to say that everyone is worse off because Central City wasn't destroyed?

Yeah, i had this reaction as well.  It makes lots of sense not to mess with stuff that happened a long time ago, too many unforeseen affects but why is it wrong to take a do over if you can and it saves lives or fixes something big?  Why shape it as a question of integrity and of what kind a hero you are? 

41 minutes ago, blugirlami21 said:

I feel sad about to an extent but it does explain why Diggle had a son and not a daughter in TLOT Arrow future.  Maybe Sara Diggle will be their second child instead of their first.  Maybe she won't.  I don't know I have a very pragmatic way of thinking about things most of the time and in this instance what's done is done.  The solution would be Barry attempting to change the timeline again and that might make it even worse.  I actually thought that Diggle was going to be childless when Barry reacted to the picture of him.  

Sadly the Sara that was erased can't be their second child since the DNA around later wouldn't be the same anymore.  And yes, we found out that Diggle had a son in the future but we didn't find out that he didn't also have a daughter. All they had to do is give him two kids instead of one and then they could have been clever without sending a message that a boy is an improvement. 

I do know it's the writer's fault more than Barry's but if they hadn't decided to go the extra mile and service Barry's storyline, they couldn't have erased Sara. So yeah, it very much feels like it's Barry's fault.  And he was a total tool for doing what he did and no, him trying to explain and justify it did not make me any more sympathetic.  Everyone else is expected to deal and move on but not Barry Allen.  Remember he spent three months thinking he got what he wanted so screw the consequences.

[CabotCove]

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I do know it's the writer's fault more than Barry's but if they hadn't decided to go the extra mile and service Barry's storyline, they couldn't have erased Sara. 

Likely they were looking for an excuse to do it (ever since SC 2046), they got it. Its the only effort they put in "servicing" this Barry storyline.

Edited October 12, 2016 by DCLeague