The Other Duggars: The Lost Girls and Amy

[lascuba]

On 8/8/2017 at 0:40 AM, OpieTaylor said:

I noticed that Jessica Seewald (Bin's rebel sister) liked a bunch of Amy's recent instagram photos, but it seems the Duggar girls never like Amy's pics. (If Jill, Jinger or Jessa had liked Amy's pics, their names would be bolded on my instagram feed because I follow them). And it looks like Amy never likes Jill, Jessa, Jinger or Jeremy's pics either. Kinda sad.  (On a different topic - I wonder if Jeremy feels extra-special because he, too, has a "J" name.)

For a short time, after Josh-gate, didn't they show that Anna and Amy were spending time together?  I wonder if they have any relationship at all now.  From what I've seen, Amy would irritate the crap out of me!

Not really. Amy played up her outrage and pretended to be BFFs with Anna, but that seemed entirely one-sided. There was that pic that Amy posted from her wedding when Anna was clearly just giving her a simple goodbye hug and Amy put this tragic look on her face and acted like there was some special subtext to the hug. 

[queenanne]

On 8/8/2017 at 0:40 AM, OpieTaylor said:

I noticed that Jessica Seewald (Bin's rebel sister) liked a bunch of Amy's recent instagram photos, but it seems the Duggar girls never like Amy's pics. (If Jill, Jinger or Jessa had liked Amy's pics, their names would be bolded on my instagram feed because I follow them). And it looks like Amy never likes Jill, Jessa, Jinger or Jeremy's pics either. Kinda sad.  (On a different topic - I wonder if Jeremy feels extra-special because he, too, has a "J" name.)

For a short time, after Josh-gate, didn't they show that Anna and Amy were spending time together?  I wonder if they have any relationship at all now.  From what I've seen, Amy would irritate the crap out of me!

Aside:  I think it's nice of Jessica to follow Amy.

[kokapetl]

3 hours ago, lascuba said:

Not really. Amy played up her outrage and pretended to be BFFs with Anna, but that seemed entirely one-sided. There was that pic that Amy posted from her wedding when Anna was clearly just giving her a simple goodbye hug and Amy put this tragic look on her face and acted like there was some special subtext to the hug. 

[louannems]

A Jackson photo bomb, as always.  How does he do it!

[Jynnan tonnix]

3 hours ago, louannems said:

A Jackson photo bomb, as always.  How does he do it!

He's so Godly that he's picked up the trick of omnipresence? 

[kokapetl]

Tucked in t shirt, cowboy boots, and a knife holster. Jackson will never be cool.  

[GeeGolly]

Is that Josh, far right, gray shirt, cap, shorts?

[kokapetl]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Is that Josh, far right, gray shirt, cap, shorts?

Standing next to Ted Turner? 

[doodlebug]

10 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Standing next to Ted Turner? 

LOL! I don't think it's Josh.

[lookeyloo]

14 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Standing next to Ted Turner? 

I zoomed in and to me it does not look like Josh-u-a

[ariel]

I hope they aren't shooting their arrows at animals.  It would be fun if they shot the arrows at Josh.

Edited August 13, 2017 by ariel

[Barb23]

Was this  picture from the Father & Son weekend at Fort Rock (the Forsyth Camp?)

[Sew Sumi]

Yeah, Austin advertised archery as one of the camp's activities. 

[ChaChaSlide]

Quote

@Arwen Evenstar

He really looked so cute enjoying his spaghetti.  Josie's breeder parents should be ashamed of themselves that Spurgeon who isn't even 2 yet doesn't eat with his fingers but uses utensils.  

Just so so everyone knows, I'm not making fun of Josie because she's not responsible for where she is developmentally and it's cruel to mock a child.  She's seven now and still eats food that isn't finger food with her fingers. Rewind to the episode when Jeremy ate the Eye-talian dinner at Chez Duggar. 

This isn't really well known in the homeschool world (especially amongst those who have always homeschooled vs pulled their kids out of public or private school), but in many states, homeschooled children with disabilities are eligible to receive special education provisions and services. Arkansas is one of the states that has expanded the federal IDEA law this way; if Ma and Pa Duggar so pleased, the local school district could send out professionals to assess Josie and figure out exactly where she is struggling, and provide services like occupational therapy to work on hand strength and utensil use, speech therapy to catch her up to her age cohort, physical therapy to help with her balance and strength and a variety of other teaching interventions that could help her better grasp academic material (quiet as it's kept, her teenage brothers doing 4th grade math could probably use some special education services themselves).

 

As a micropreemie, Josie would've been a shoe-in for the developmentally disabled category under the IDEA, she could have been receiving early intervention services pretty much from birth. However, since the DD category is only for 7 and under, she would have to be re-categorized, but again this shouldn't be hard as she has obvious and long lasting effects across several domains from her premature birth, the multiple disabilities category fully encompasses all that she has going on. I'm sure nothing will be done though, and if something is done it'll be after her toddler nephews and nieces completely eclipse her developmentally, but by then it'll be too late. She's pretty much getting the Priscilla Waller treatment from her parents ugh.

Edited: I almost forgot to mention, help for Josie would be 100% free, no cost at all to the Duggar family. For them to turn down free help is just bizarre to me; they didnt turn it down when Josie was born and was saved thanks to Medicaid based care for preemies, but they'll turn down free services that will bring their daughter better long term quality of life? Then again I shouldn't be surprised, they've showed time and time again they only care about fetuses  in the womb, once they get here they're on their own. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by ChaChaSlide

[queenanne]

4 hours ago, ChaChaSlide said:

This isn't really well known in the homeschool world (especially amongst those who have always homeschooled vs pulled their kids out of public or private school), but in many states, homeschooled children with disabilities are eligible to receive special education provisions and services. Arkansas is one of the states that has expanded the federal IDEA law this way; if Ma and Pa Duggar so pleased, the local school district could send out professionals to assess Josie and figure out exactly where she is struggling, and provide services like occupational therapy to work on hand strength and utensil use, speech therapy to catch her up to her age cohort, physical therapy to help with her balance and strength and a variety of other teaching interventions that could help her better grasp academic material (quiet as it's kept, her teenage brothers doing 4th grade math could probably use some special education services themselves).

 

As a micropreemie, Josie would've been a shoe-in for the developmentally disabled category under the IDEA, she could have been receiving early intervention services pretty much from birth. However, since the DD category is only for 7 and under, she would have to be re-categorized, but again this shouldn't be hard as she has obvious and long lasting effects across several domains from her premature birth, the multiple disabilities category fully encompasses all that she has going on. I'm sure nothing will be done though, and if something is done it'll be after her toddler nephews and nieces completely eclipse her developmentally, but by then it'll be too late. She's pretty much getting the Priscilla Waller treatment from her parents ugh.

Edited: I almost forgot to mention, help for Josie would be 100% free, no cost at all to the Duggar family. For them to turn down free help is just bizarre to me; they didnt turn it down when Josie was born and was saved thanks to Medicaid based care for preemies, but they'll turn down free services that will bring their daughter better long term quality of life? Then again I shouldn't be surprised, they've showed time and time again they only care about fetuses  in the womb, once they get here they're on their own. 

All of that is just ostrichy 'God doesn't make Christians as less than perfect, thus there is nothing wrong with Josie', IMO.  The adults wouldn't want to be told she has developmental delays and would rather rug sweep things, because to acknowledge them, would be to acknowledge that the Duggs' own decisions when Michelle was pregnant, might be responsible for any deficiencies.  They don't want to face any of the metaphorical or literal deficits they've inflicted upon any of their children.

[Absolom]

While the help is theoretically available to Josie, shoe in is a bit of a stretch.  One of the micropreemies in the hospital at the same time as Josie was born even younger and had more pronounced issues and his mother had to do quite a bit of fighting to get services for him.  The state is not wealthy and services that are on the books are not always as available as they may seem. 

[AnnieBeez]

Child Find is federally mandated. http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/child.find.index.htm I would hope that Josie has (had??) a pediatrician who'd let them know about it. 

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, MissHavisham said:

Child Find is federally mandated. http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/child.find.index.htm I would hope that Josie has (had??) a pediatrician who'd let them know about it. 

Even if the Duggars were aware of services that might be available for Josie, it would be up to them to take advantage of them.  Based on the obviously substandard education the other kids have gotten; I think it is more than likely that they haven't bothered  since the early days.  After all, as a girl, Josie's role in life is to be a wife and mother. Period.  They would chalk up any issues she might have as God's will .

[Absolom]

There is indeed a federal mandate.  It's implementation, however, especially in many less affluent districts is not what many people expect.  

[latetotheparty]

7 hours ago, MissHavisham said:

Child Find is federally mandated. http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/child.find.index.htm I would hope that Josie has (had??) a pediatrician who'd let them know about it. 

There is no way they'd ever take advantage of this.  Anything that might call into question how they're raising

Josie or might require them to expend some effort is not something they would pursue. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

I remember when Jessa called Josie down for eating lasagna with her fingers and told her to use a fork, and Josie whining, "It's hawd". If Jessa had read anything about child development, she knew this type of behavior just wasn't "on". 

Shes doing a much better job of parenting than her own mother, the difference being that Jessa very much wanted her children and hasn't lost interest in them past 6 months.

[BitterApple]

7 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

I remember when Jessa called Josie down for eating lasagna with her fingers and told her to use a fork, and Josie whining, "It's hawd". If Jessa had read anything about child development, she knew this type of behavior just wasn't "on". 

Shes doing a much better job of parenting than her own mother, the difference being that Jessa very much wanted her children and hasn't lost interest in them past 6 months.

I remember that and I also remember she was the only adult at the entire table who called her out on it. Michelle, Boob and Jana just ignored it.

[Churchhoney]

On 8/11/2017 at 10:10 AM, lascuba said:

Not really. Amy played up her outrage and pretended to be BFFs with Anna, but that seemed entirely one-sided. There was that pic that Amy posted from her wedding when Anna was clearly just giving her a simple goodbye hug and Amy put this tragic look on her face and acted like there was some special subtext to the hug. 

In her eyes, Amy's life is a made-for-tv-drama, I think. I expect she does her best to make it that way at all times. And is just hoping and hoping that some network will pick her up. lol

Edited August 17, 2017 by Churchhoney

[Farmfam]

On 8/15/2017 at 4:54 PM, ChaChaSlide said:

This isn't really well known in the homeschool world (especially amongst those who have always homeschooled vs pulled their kids out of public or private school), but in many states, homeschooled children with disabilities are eligible to receive special education provisions and services. Arkansas is one of the states that has expanded the federal IDEA law this way; if Ma and Pa Duggar so pleased, the local school district could send out professionals to assess Josie and figure out exactly where she is struggling, and provide services like occupational therapy to work on hand strength and utensil use, speech therapy to catch her up to her age cohort, physical therapy to help with her balance and strength and a variety of other teaching interventions that could help her better grasp academic material (quiet as it's kept, her teenage brothers doing 4th grade math could probably use some special education services themselves).

 

As a micropreemie, Josie would've been a shoe-in for the developmentally disabled category under the IDEA, she could have been receiving early intervention services pretty much from birth. However, since the DD category is only for 7 and under, she would have to be re-categorized, but again this shouldn't be hard as she has obvious and long lasting effects across several domains from her premature birth, the multiple disabilities category fully encompasses all that she has going on. I'm sure nothing will be done though, and if something is done it'll be after her toddler nephews and nieces completely eclipse her developmentally, but by then it'll be too late. She's pretty much getting the Priscilla Waller treatment from her parents ugh.

Edited: I almost forgot to mention, help for Josie would be 100% free, no cost at all to the Duggar family. For them to turn down free help is just bizarre to me; they didnt turn it down when Josie was born and was saved thanks to Medicaid based care for preemies, but they'll turn down free services that will bring their daughter better long term quality of life? Then again I shouldn't be surprised, they've showed time and time again they only care about fetuses  in the womb, once they get here they're on their own. 

Josie would only be considered a "shoe in" until age 3, after that children have to qualify for any service received. Either that or they need a perscription from a doctor. - my daughter has DS in PA, so I know how it works here, not in Arkansas. Also, I was a preemie (born at 30 weeks) and never had any qualifying delays ever, even under 3. I'm in my 30s now and still no lasting effects of being born early. Not EVERY preemie has significant delays or are considered to be a "shoe in".

[Nysha]

The Duggars homeschool to keep their children free of the Ungodly influence of public school. There was no way they were going to allow that influence into their house, even if they were willing to admit that Josie was less than perfect. 

[Genevrier]

1 hour ago, Nysha said:

The Duggars homeschool to keep their children free of the Ungodly influence of public school. There was no way they were going to allow that influence into their house, even if they were willing to admit that Josie was less than perfect. 

This is probably how they see it, too. Maybe I'm missing something since I never had a religion, but aren't all children supposed to be gifts from their God who makes no mistakes? If they believed their own damn religion they would understand that Josie is not "less than" anything; she is whole and complete and perfect as she is, and one of the things about her is that she has been slow to learn some necessary skills, and could use some help. And then they'd get her the help. It would appear that they care more about how other people perceive them, and have this idea that a "perfect" child is one with no visible weak points. And that is a really damn worldly way of thinking. Assholes. 

 

ETA My apologies; I was driven to profanity. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Genevrier

[xwordfanatik]

My heathen self is prone to profanity.  If the shoe fits...

They ARE assholes.  No question here.

[Arwen Evenstar]

If they think Josie is so perfect, then why is she shown struggling to use utensils at age 7? Why does she still speak with obvious impediments like "mawwied"? You would think if they wanted her to appear perfect, they wouldn't put her on camera or allow her to be shown struggling in any way.

She could have been treated privately; none of us would have to know. To not have gotten her treatment that was available was a great disservice to this little girl.

[Nysha]

They don't believe in getting outside help for learning issues. They understand what she's saying and she's their last baby, so they're not that concerned about her acting babyish.  Even though she's the same age as Mackynzie and probably should have caught up with her developmentally by now, they're so used to her being behind that they don't even think about it and it's not it's going to stop her from reaching her only life choices in their world. Josie is still going to be able to get married and have babies OR stay single and raise her niece's and nephew's children.

[Absolom]

46 minutes ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

She could have been treated privately; none of us would have to know. To not have gotten her treatment that was available was a great disservice to this little girl.

It's been years now, but when Josie was around pre-school age, Michelle made a comment once that Josie was getting services.  It's been so long that I don't remember if it was an interview or what, but I think it was either speech or occupational therapy.  They did take Josie back to U of A hospital for regular developmental checkups for at least her first three years.  We saw a couple of them on the show.  Whether they should have done more or what we see now is the result of a dreadful lack of parenting, I can't say.  All I have to do is look at how some of the other younger children are turning out to see considerable lack of education and what the Duggars would call training.  

[cdp73]

1 hour ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

If they think Josie is so perfect, then why is she shown struggling to use utensils at age 7? Why does she still speak with obvious impediments like "mawwied"? You would think if they wanted her to appear perfect, they wouldn't put her on camera or allow her to be shown struggling in any way.

She could have been treated privately; none of us would have to know. To not have gotten her treatment that was available was a great disservice to this little girl.

My guess would be that they think we see things the same way they see them.  If they don't think there's a problem, we are obviously wrong if we do, because JESUS!

[Arwen Evenstar]

33 minutes ago, cdp73 said:

My guess would be that they think we see things the same way they see them.  If they don't think there's a problem, we are obviously wrong if we do, because JESUS!

Obviously. ?

[bythelake]

On 8/16/2017 at 1:15 PM, Arwen Evenstar said:

I remember when Jessa called Josie down for eating lasagna with her fingers and told her to use a fork, and Josie whining, "It's hawd". If Jessa had read anything about child development, she knew this type of behavior just wasn't "on". 

Shes doing a much better job of parenting than her own mother, the difference being that Jessa very much wanted her children and hasn't lost interest in them past 6 months.

My grandson had a speech impediment. His name is John but when he pronounced  it, it sounded like Tom. Sometimes, when I couldn't understand him at all, he would get a crayon and paper and draw what he wanted. It was heartbreaking to me, but he took it in stride. He started therapy in preschool, and  continued in elementary school 3x a wk until the end of third grade. His parents also had lessons to do with him at home. By the end of third grade his speech was perfect. If Josie has had ongoing therapy it seems there would be more of an improvement in her speech. Frankly, I don't see any at all. The poor child seems to have multiple issues that this horrible family choose to ignore.

[DangerousMinds]

Do they think children are perfect, or that children are manipulative sinners who need to be trained? I get so confused . . .

[Arwen Evenstar]

@bythelake-great post. Glad your grandson is doing so much better.

That little boy needed help up until 3rd grade, so Josie shouldn't have stopped receiving some kind of help either. Certainly, there had to have been some Fundies in their community that did speech therapy and addressed other needs Josie may have. It was up to her parents to get it for her, and there's no law that says her parents had to do just that.  I want to take Josie away from that madhouse and give her the love and attention and nutrition she needs.

[floridamom]

Some of the younger Bates children have terrible lisps and/or impediments. Those children really need some professional intervention before they are grown. Past a certain age, it isn't 'cute' anymore. It's a terrible shame that therapy is out there for them and these families seem to ignore it.

[queenanne]

10 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Do they think children are perfect, or that children are manipulative sinners who need to be trained? I get so confused . . .

Well, they may not actually think they're perfect, just that any flaws are caused by sin and demons, and can thus be conquered with lots of fasting and prayer. Unless the sin cause is deemed the parents' fault and only the sad crippling consequence redounds to the child, in which case not much can be done about it, and thus not thinking about it is best, so the parents can obviate their own guilt.

The children's souls, however, are evil from the start.  Bonus points because the more perfect you are as parents and the better you are as Christians, the younger you'll have them lisping the Sinner's Prayer and whomp that all out of them.  

Edited August 19, 2017 by queenanne

[Churchhoney]

11 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Do they think children are perfect, or that children are manipulative sinners who need to be trained? I get so confused . . .

I think it goes like this: 

All children are manipulative sinners because all humans are manipulative sinners by nature until they convert to Jesus. But children aren't old enough yet to convert to Jesus properly on their own so they need to have the manipulative sinner trained out of them.                                          

(What's really going on when Jizm Bob and Meeechelle say this: We want total power over our children so we'll use any excuse to use that power! Wheee!!! Power trip!!!!)

Children from different parents were given by God to those different parents based on the parents' levels of godliness. And, since we're the most godly people ever, all our children are perfect because God gives perfect peopleonly  perfect children as a sign of their godliness.                       

(What's really going on when JB and M say this: God gave us perfect children for the same reason he gave us our TeeVee show! And all the freebies, like a free house! Woot! (...Grrrrr.... but there was that one time when Satan built a fortress in God's child pipeline and the pipeline screwed up and gave us Joshley......Grrrrrrr.....Satan.))

[Jynnan tonnix]

15 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I think it goes like this: 

All children are manipulative sinners because all humans are manipulative sinners by nature until they convert to Jesus. But children aren't old enough yet to convert to Jesus properly on their own so they need to have the manipulative sinner trained out of them.                                          

(What's really going on when Jizm Bob and Meeechelle say this: We want total power over our children so we'll use any excuse to use that power! Wheee!!! Power trip!!!!)

Children from different parents were given by God to those different parents based on the parents' levels of godliness. And, since we're the most godly people ever, all our children are perfect because God gives perfect peopleonly  perfect children as a sign of their godliness.                       

(What's really going on when JB and M say this: God gave us perfect children for the same reason he gave us our TeeVee show! And all the freebies, like a free house! Woot! (...Grrrrr.... but there was that one time when Satan built a fortress in God's child pipeline and the pipeline screwed up and gave us Joshley......Grrrrrrr.....Satan.))

Except that they believe all people are still miserable sinners. Even though they may have grown up to eschew sin and do their best, they will still inevitably fail because of that pesky sin nature they were born with. 

Which rather makes anyone holding up themselves or their family as some sort of paragons rather hypocritical. It's not even as though they technically believe that some sins are not as serious as others. A lustful thought or  a moment of envy is equal to rape and murder. No one is worthy in their world, else there would be no need for a redeemer.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Jynnan tonnix

[Churchhoney]

48 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

A lustful thought or  a moment of envy is equal to rape and murder. 

Yeah, but that's just to scare kids, mostly, into obeying their parents. Once you're old enough in their eyes to have accepted the right Christ, all you have to do to get back on the good side is to re-accept him. That's why they could say that Joshley was completely okey dokey as a kid. And why conservative CHristian pastors can cause all kinds of havoc and then just get right back into everybody's good graces. Once you're saved, you can get re-saved in a New York minute, no matter what kind of falling from grace you do. 

They'd never accept a religion that meant a Duggar they liked -- or a Gothard they liked -- was actually bad as an adult. Once you're on the right Jesus's bandwagon, you can jump down, commit a few frauds, molestations and abuses, accept the right Jesus all over again and jump right back up to be drum major on the bandwagon. 

They talk a good game about how the tiniest little thing is a sin. But the caveat is that while every tiny thing is a sin, even the hugest sins can be easily washed away -- for them and their chosen folks -- simply by saying, "I'm washed in your blood, Jesus! Accept me again!" 

Other people who haven't accepted the proper Jesus are damned despite living lives of total virtue, of course. 

[AUgirl]

Quote

That little boy needed help up until 3rd grade, so Josie shouldn't have stopped receiving some kind of help either. Certainly, there had to have been some Fundies in their community that did speech therapy 

Speech therapy depends on the severity of the speech impediment. Both mine went through it. My daughter "graduated" in second grade but son took until third. If Josie's problems weren't too bad she wouldn't have needed to receive services as long. 

If Josie doesn't "have" and R and substitutes a "w" that is actually developmentally appropriate until around the age of 8. After that it would be a problem. (This came from my kids speech pathologist). Both are100% "fixed " now!

[3 is enough]

On 8/19/2017 at 3:05 AM, floridamom said:

Those children really need some professional intervention before they are grown. Past a certain age, it isn't 'cute' anymore. It's a terrible shame that therapy is out there for them and these families seem to ignore it.

Probably going to hell for this but I think the main reason that these kids aren't getting the help they need is simply because it is too much trouble.  Speech and occupational therapies are time consuming, and need to be scheduled on a regular basis.  That would interfere with other family activities and that's why it will never happen.  Because church "social stuff"  and date nights and weekends  for mom and dad are just so much more important than getting your kids the help they need.

I have an 18-year old nephew with special needs.  He has therapists come to the house every day after school.  While he will never be self-sufficient, my brother and his wife are doing everything in their power to give him the tools to achieve as much as he possibly can.  It would be so easy and much less expensive to let him watch tv and do legos every day, but they refuse to take the easy road.

[bythelake]

From hearing Josie speak, I wonder if she's had any therapy at all.  My grandson not only had therapy in school, but he brought home worksheets that he worked on with his parents. There certainly were enough teens in the Duggar household that could have practiced with Josie if her parents were too busy (lazy) to do so. I wonder if JB was too cheap to pay for it, or that his income was too high for her to receive social services.  

[Arwen Evenstar]

Too cheap and too lazy

[kokapetl]

That's what I remember about eclipses. The weird shadows.

[GeeGolly]

I guess Jessa thinks God will protect her eyes?

[toodles]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I guess Jessa thinks God will protect her eyes?

What do scientists know?  Protecting your eyes is just crazy heathen talk.

[DangerousMinds]

Arkansas was not in the path of totality either. I call bs.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Maybe they loaded up the stink bus..

We had 67% where we are in south Texas.  They may have had 90 to 95% in NWA

[Sew Sumi]

Pretty close to totality in AR, according to Josiah.