Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Oldernowiser]

This clears up my timeline issues regarding the FOI and the request to destroy the record to protect the minor.

 

WaPo has a good timeline that makes it clear how things unfolded.

Back the truck up...there was a trial???? From that article...

"The same year, a reporter for the Northwest Arkansas Times, who now works for the Democrat-Gazette, finds a court document for a case titled Josh Duggar vs. the Arkansas Department of Human Services. The Democrat-Gazette reports:

A trial in that case took place Aug. 6, 2007, according to notes attached to the file. Sealed cases aren’t supposed to be left in public view, but the Duggar case file had been left in a stack of routine court filings at the circuit clerk’s office. The reporter saw no other information on the case at the time.

According to the Democrat-Gazette, the reporter asked Jim Bob and Josh Duggar about the trial at the time, but they declined to comment."

[CofCinci]

 

This clears up my timeline issues regarding the FOI and the request to destroy the record to protect the minor.

 

Someone put together a timeline? Really? I had a much longer post about this, but I couldn't find the right words to not sound insensitive, so I concluded I was being insensitive. But, it creeps me out that the Washington Post actually compiled and published a timeline.

 

Conspiracy types are speculating that the mainstream media is latching onto Duggargate to distract the masses from more important news stories likes the Trans-Pacific Partnership, Jade Helm, Rand Paul's filibuster or even the various marches against Monsanto this weekend.

[Darknight]

The most idiotic comments I've seen come from here: http://www.aboverubies.net/2015/05/the-duggars-whats-in-name.html?m=1

So basically the nothing anyone said (police report, those interviewed, etc.,) was real or true, everything is speculation, but Josh repenting is the whole truth, and blames the evil liberal media.

This stupid idiot. Rape victims have to live with it everyday it's brought up again every single day. A smell touch object, flashback will be in their mind. I can't with the thumpers. They're just so mad that their favorite christian family could do this

[fliptopbox]

 

That's not terribly uncommon though, especially for young kids who don't know really how to process what happened. I was assaulted as a young teen by a boy close to my age and even though I knew rationally it wasn't my fault it didn't stop feelings of guilt and shame just because I knew it was wrong, and it was something I definitely didn't want to talk about with parents or any adults in general. In fact, I didn't tell anyone of note about it til I was almost 10yrs older, although among my peers rumors flew like crazy, especially once I virtually disappeared from school. By then it was over and I had moved on, the only time I ever felt rage or anything past the age of 20 was when I ran into him at a bar, and he tried hitting on me. It was the ultimate feeling of revulsion that kept me from punching him in the face.

You are so strong. I am freaking out even reading this.

Thanks. At the time it was utterly terrible and mortifying, especially once kids at school started asking about it and it hit the rumor mill hardcore. The guy was also a super popular skater guy who was actually pretty hot. But he was a colossal douchebag (obviously) and ery arrogant. His father was a sheriff with the local police too, so this guy never had consequences for anything while he was a teenager.  After the attack he actually threatened me with a knife, at a school bus stop with like 6 other people around less than a week later. He was going to slit my throat, on the end of a cul de sac at 330pm. Fucking crazy shit.

 

Luckily he's now in jail for domestic violence towards his wife and kids. Karma, man. Love it.

 

I'm glad I was able to work through it in my own way, let go, and move on....any type of forced forgiveness would be worthless and is totally beneath my character.

 

I also have my Amazon Smile account to donate to RAINN.

Edited May 24, 2015 by fliptopbox

[millk]

New to the thread but reading along.

 

I've noticed that in the comments I've read on other sites there are a lot of people who didn't read the report or the articles with timelines, etc. There seems to be misinformation being put out deliberately. Many people are saying they turned him in, everyone got help, he was only 12, etc.

 

I'm seeing two camps of people who aren't reading beyond a headline or their facebook sidebar (which still says allegations) . One being people who aren't particularly religious but "love" the show because of the weddings and babies and are sad it isn't on anymore. (both people I know online and IRL) and the other being Christians who are in the "because Jesus" mode. 

[CofCinci]

Back the truck up...there was a trial???? From that article...

"The same year, a reporter for the Northwest Arkansas Times, who now works for the Democrat-Gazette, finds a court document for a case titled Josh Duggar vs. the Arkansas Department of Human Services. The Democrat-Gazette reports:

A trial in that case took place Aug. 6, 2007, according to notes attached to the file. Sealed cases aren’t supposed to be left in public view, but the Duggar case file had been left in a stack of routine court filings at the circuit clerk’s office. The reporter saw no other information on the case at the time.

According to the Democrat-Gazette, the reporter asked Jim Bob and Josh Duggar about the trial at the time, but they declined to comment."

This is a major development! Hopefully more is found out about this 2007 trial.

[autumnh]

I recall that as well, but I actually put it off as how Josh always seemed to be the pampered prince as the eldest

 

Looking back now, I wonder if they treated him that way because they feared he MIGHT continue to engage in that behavior still or potentially reoffend. He always came across as the "special one" to his parents...now we know why, sadly.

[Zung Li]

Remember that "Alice" commenter from 2007 said they had to go to court every 6 months or something like that (once DHS was involved) so that must be what the court documents were about.

 

ETA: I re-read the Alice comment. She says they went to court in April and now they have to report to DHS every 6 months. Some reporter needs to track her down because she was right about them going to court and seems to be a treasure trove of information.

Edited May 24, 2015 by mingming

[merylinkid]

I actually don't have a problem with JB lawyering up.   It's what we WANT people to do when facing legal consequences.   Because trust me, even smart people fuck up the law, let alone someone like JB who only thinks about sex.   My problem is with the authorities who said "oh lawyer involved, let's stop now."   REALLY????   Like they've never dealt with defense lawyers before?   The state trooper they reported to, should have realized this required more than a stern talking to.   But then I still wonder about his motives here.

 

Also, to go on with Wanderwoman's suggestion, I asked Alison Arngrim over on twitter what groups she recommeds.   Her twitter feed now includes a TON of organizations.   Find one you agree with and go for it.   I believe she works directly with PROTECT.   

[SadForTheJSlaves]

New to posting here but I had to get an account, I've been desperately sad for days since reading the Police Report.

 

I have a question: does anyone think the whistle-blower (or the person who loaned the book out, which 'coincidentally' had the damning letter in there) knew that the Statute was due to run out fairly soon and was therefore trying to ensure there were consequences before it did? And could it be possible that J Boob and MEchelle hired the lawyer and postponed meetings etc. in order to ensure that the Statute ran out before there could be consequences?

 

If this was the case, it makes me even more sick.

[JennyMominFL]

What exactly do we know about the letter in the book?

[SometimesBites]

The Duggars and their ilk are a bunch of deeply ignorant, self-righteous, bigots. The trouble is, the longer they rode the TLC gravy train, the more cocky they got about hammering others with whom they disagree. But as the old saying goes, the higher the monkey climbs, the more he expose.

[Found A Peanut]

Thanks. At the time it was utterly terrible and mortifying, especially once kids at school started asking about it and it hit the rumor mill hardcore. The guy was also a super popular skater guy who was actually pretty hot. But he was a colossal douchebag (obviously) and ery arrogant. His father was a sheriff with the local police too, so this guy never had consequences for anything while he was a teenager.  After the attack he actually threatened me with a knife, at a school bus stop with like 6 other people around less than a week later. He was going to slit my throat, on the end of a cul de sac at 330pm. Fucking crazy shit.

 

Luckily he's now in jail for domestic violence towards his wife and kids. Karma, man. Love it.

 

I'm glad I was able to work through it in my own way, let go, and move on....any type of forced forgiveness would be worthless and is totally beneath my character.

 

I also have my Amazon Smile account to donate to RAINN.

What a creep. Being handed everything just isn't enough for some people. I'm so happy for you that you were able to process things and move on. Joyous life to you.

I need to look into this Amazon Smile thing people are talking about. I pretty much never pay any attention to my Amazon account, but it sounds like something useful is happening.

[lilabennet]

One of the most frustrating things for me is that Duggar supporters keep harping that the parents turned Josh in (they didn't) and they got both Josh and his victims "counseling" (they didn't).

 

"Counseling" is a very ambiguous word.  A person could have a heart to heart talk with their grandmother and they would not be lying if they said they had received "counseling".  Any idiot can hang a shingle outside their door or place an ad in the paper claiming to be a therapist.  There is no regulatory body overseeing "therapists".

 

What these children needed was to see a licensed clinical psychologist (a position that it is illegal to claim to hold if you do not, unlike therapist), but their supporters think they have received all the "counseling" they needed.  It makes my blood boil.

[kathe5133]

Conspiracy types are speculating that the mainstream media is latching onto Duggargate to distract the masses from more important news stories likes the Trans-Pacific Partnership, Jade Helm, Rand Paul's filibuster or even the various marches against Monsanto this weekend.

Oh my God that made me laugh out loud! It's the Iluminati! What is worse than the Duggars? Conspiracy Theorists! They are bat shit crazy and I could totally believe they would get on board with that notion! I live with one. She's got some search engine ("they" are monitoring her google account) and YouTube. She has found a cure for cancer, but she'd need a pound of pot to prove it so.... And any day now her combined "resources" of search engine, facebook and YouTube will unearth who was behind the plot that killed JFK! Thank you for that. That was what was getting under my skin about the timeline, I realize now. It was shades of what goes on in my house 24/7. Timelines, quotes, and proof, all without leaving the house! I guess folks need to process, and knowing the facts helps them do that. Thank you for saying that!

[neural-plasticity]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/05/anna-duggar-and-the-silencing-power-of-forgiveness.html

Here is something Josh said when he was courting Anna. Okay so if I had read this at the time, I would have just assumed that he felt some girls up from his church group, as that is certainly how it sounds. This is what is so sick about the Duggar's beliefs. It seems quite clear from this statement that Josh considers molesting his sister as she sleeps as the same level of wicked as having a consensual make out session with someone you're own age. Both are just "temptations". The male is tempted and the female is the one doing the tempting. One of Josh's sisters was a bad girl who tempted him while she was sleeping.

I dunno, that is the idea I am getting from what he said there. Somewhere in that whole thing is the implication of an evil temptress. If he said that publicly just a couple of years after the ordeal, then I cannot imagine how horrible his victims must have felt at that moment.

It's funny, because the sermon at my church this morning was on temptation. The pastor did NOT bring up this topic or the Duggars, but my mind really couldn't stop going back to this situation. However, like many people have already said, touching your little sisters in an inappropriate manner is a whole different temptation than wanting to use swear words...

[autumnh]

Conspiracy types are speculating that the mainstream media is latching onto Duggargate to distract the masses from more important news stories likes the Trans-Pacific Partnership, Jade Helm, Rand Paul's filibuster or even the various marches against Monsanto this weekend.

 

Truth.

 

The tin foil hatters on my FB are all up in arms.

 

They believe liberals have made a big deal out of this because well...BENGHAZI.

 

I just can't anymore..between that and the idiots who are defending the Duggars with btw, THE most ridiculous posts is just making my brain want to explode.

 

I am so glad to be amongst feel GOOD human beings who I think have approached and reacted very intelligently and with great emotion for the victims. Yeah, we snark but we're pretty good people too.

[parisprincess]

I just a question:  If girls are to remain pure so they can be given to "godly" men for marriage, can Josh still consider himself godly after having his hands on parts of his sisters' bodies that are supposed to be untouched until their wedding night?  Wouldn't a "godly" man be one who has also kept himself pure?  Looks like poor Anna got stuck with damaged goods!

 

How clever of old man Gothard to make messing with young girls' bodies no big thing as long as the girls keep their "soul" pure.  Of course that's only accepted if the offending guy is a member of his cult.  I'm sure anyone outside their circle isn't forgiven for such behavior.  How in the hell do these perverts manage to find so many kool-aid drinkers who buy their shit?      

[trimthatfat]

Mr. Seewald's blog is just laughable. The fact that he would dedicate one paragraph to the victims and the rest to Josh and the idea of forgiveness is so ridiculous.

 

 
Someone put together a timeline? Really? I had a much longer post about this, but I couldn't find the right words to not sound insensitive, so I concluded I was being insensitive. But, it creeps me out that the Washington Post actually compiled and published a timeline.

It creeps me out, too. I just feel like putting together a detailed timeline and/or trying to find out the names of the victims is just so...IDK. I feel like it's intended to satisfy the curiosity of the public when it really doesn't help any of the victims. 

[neural-plasticity]

Jessica Seewald also came out in defense of the abuser, now Pa Seewald posts this:

http://seewalds.com/grace-greater-than-our-sin/

If Josh was a non-Christian minority, I imagine they'd be screaming to string him up.

Of course they're going the support the Duggars and their show. The family and show has been supporting their son for the last two years. If they speak out, they risk Bin's gig in the show (if it continues). *eye roll*

[msblossom]

That's not terribly uncommon though, especially for young kids who don't know really how to process what happened. I was assaulted as a young teen by a boy close to my age and even though I knew rationally it wasn't my fault it didn't stop feelings of guilt and shame just because I knew it was wrong, and it was something I definitely didn't want to talk about with parents or any adults in general. In fact, I didn't tell anyone of note about it til I was almost 10yrs older, although among my peers rumors flew like crazy, especially once I virtually disappeared from school. By then it was over and I had moved on, the only time I ever felt rage or anything past the age of 20 was when I ran into him at a bar, and he tried hitting on me. It was the ultimate feeling of revulsion that kept me from punching him in the face.

Wow fliptopbox, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I rarely speak about it and have never put it out there in a public forum, but I actually have a similar experience, although it was two guys in my case. I was 15, and they were 17 & 18 and it happened in the woods at a senior keg party. I don't want to get off topic, but it's something that I didn't get counseling for until I was 17 and I continued to work through it for years later, even as recently as 2 years ago in marriage counseling. I believe for anyone who experiences sexual assault, it's not a one and done in terms of counseling. It's a process that happens over one's lifetime. There are many triggers.

[leighdear]

@lilabennett,

 

The same with the word "authorities".  We know with these people it actually means "twisted and perverted old religious dudes that overlook misogynistic acts", while the uninformed thinks it means Law Enforcement Officials. 

[JenCarroll]

Mr. Seewald's blog is just laughable. The fact that he would dedicate one paragraph to the victims and the rest to Josh and the idea of forgiveness is so ridiculous.

 

It creeps me out, too. I just feel like putting together a detailed timeline and/or trying to find out the names of the victims is just so...IDK. I feel like it's intended to satisfy the curiosity of the public when it really doesn't help any of the victims.

But with so many people just making up their own versions of events, I think it's not a bad thing to have a reputable news organization put together something that's as accurate as it can be with current information. At least there's something to point to when idiots try to sell people a revised, more pro-Josh narrative.

[JoanArc]

 

A trial in that case took place Aug. 6, 2007, according to notes attached to the file. Sealed cases aren’t supposed to be left in public view, but the Duggar case file had been left in a stack of routine court filings at the circuit clerk’s office. The reporter saw no other information on the case at the time.

Oh dear. Josh would've been around 18 or 19 at that time, correct? *not a lawyer* Could he still have been tracked for juvenile offenses? I think a trial opens a lot of possibilities. All bad. Plus the records were sealed. FFS Anna, please get an annulment. God hates divorce. He loves annulments!

Edited May 24, 2015 by JoanArc

[becca3891]

I know we all believe that Michelle and Jim Bob would blame the girls in the case of sexual assault, but does anyone have an actual cite for this?  I am writing an article, and I need an actual cite where Michelle or Jim Bob say exactly that.  The closest I can find is them saying that "If a woman dresses immodestly she stirs up desires in the man that cannot be righteously fulfilled"

 

But that isn't good enough.  I need something where they say specifically, that they believe the woman is at fault for being assaulted.  Does anyone have a cite for that?

This site has images from Gothard's booklet on "counseling" sexual abuse. I know I've posted it before, but things are moving so fast and since you seem new to the discussion and directly asked, I will post it again. He indicates that defrauding by immodesty and failing to cry out while being attacked are both reasons why the victim is at fault. Nauseating. http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/

[trimthatfat]

But with so many people just making up their own versions of events, I think it's not a bad thing to have a reputable news organization put together something that's as accurate as it can be with current information. At least there's something to point to when idiots try to sell people a revised, more pro-Josh narrative.

I suppose. I just feel like some of the attempts to put the pieces together has more to do with satisfying curiosity/nosiness than anything else and that bothers me. That's just my opinion.

[Betweenyouandme]

http://matthewbdrake.com/2015/05/23/three-reasons-why-you-should-shut-up-about-the-josh-duggar-scandal/

Just read this about one person's view about discussing the molestation, etc.

[ratherbereading]

What a creep. Being handed everything just isn't enough for some people. I'm so happy for you that you were able to process things and move on. Joyous life to you.

I need to look into this Amazon Smile thing people are talking about. I pretty much never pay any attention to my Amazon account, but it sounds like something useful is happening.

 

http://smile.amazon.com/about/ref=smi_ge_ul_lm_raas

 

This pretty much explains the program. I mean if you are going to buy something on Amazon, why not buy it through the smile program and have money donated to a charity. It's not much (.5% of the purchase price) but every little bit adds up.

 

I changed mine to Stop It Now as well, thanks Wanderwoman.

[SometimesBites]

RE the remark from Duggar Support System referring to public reaction as sharks in a feeding frenzy:

1. The Duggars are public figures, by choice. They have enjoyed the perks of that station for many years--now they are experiencing the shadow side of "celebrity." Ya don't get one without risking the other.

2. The "blood in the water" came from Josh. Josh's despicable actions with his innocent little sisters are the genesis of the ENTIRE SHIT TORNADO.

3. If this repeated molestation had happened at the hands of a dark and terrible stranger, would they not be outraged by that abuse? Would they be calling for forgiveness and understanding? Would they call the media sharks under those circumstances...or would they not be somewhat gratified if a media frenzy erupted that called for the abuser's head on a pike?

[autumnh]

This site has images from Gothard's booklet on "counseling" sexual abuse. I know I've posted it before, but things are moving so fast and since you seem new to the discussion and directly asked, I will post it again. He indicates that defrauding by immodesty and failing to cry out while being attacked are both reasons why the victim is at fault. Nauseating. http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/

 

Just reading a bit of that makes me shudder.

 

I have a feeling that the layers are juuuust starting to be peeled back. It might not happen right away but I do think that this will allow other Gothard victims come forward and that that cult will be exposed for what it is.  I have no doubt that this is going to be come a huge expose.

[leighdear]

It's very difficult to get an "annulment" here in Florida.  Florida laws don't even address annulments, just cases of if the marriage is void (never legal to begin with) or voidable (circumstances found out after the fact).  It requires a LOT of paperwork, a lot of proof and a decision from the Appellate court.  And that's just the civil part.  The Baptist church they got married in may not even recognize an annulment. 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2015 by leighdear

[merylinkid]

Putting the pieces together is actually very important to processing and understanding.   We are doing much the same thing here, trying to figure out what happened when and who did what when.   It's actually what law enforcement and lawyers do all the time.   We hear something from witness A and go "that's nice."   Then we hear something from Witness B and go "hey, that goes with what Witness A said, let's dig some more."   And suddenly it all clicks.   When it happens during a trial, we call it a Perry Mason moment.   

 

I'm fine with WaPo putting together a timeline.   It gives people something concrete to go with rather than just pure speculation about the events.   If someone says "Oh well, they went to law enforcement on such and such a date" you can look at the timeline to see if that is accurate or not.  Then make up your own mind.

 

BTW, since I have a functioning brain I can be up in arms about Josh AND Benghazi at the same time.

[Zung Li]

http://bitterjealousfatties.yuku.com/topic/964/Josh-Duggar-Molested-Sisters#.VWJBUo1FDIU

 

I've seen the "Alice" comments on a couple of sites (I haven't looked around too much) but this one is the most comprehensive. She is commenting back and forth with people but this is only showing her comments. In a couple of them she talks about Josh and pornography. She says he was looking at the internet and all the filth that is on there (paraphrasing)  She knows a lot about the situation and lets it be known that she is willing to tell anyone who asks. I was wondering if Josh or anyone had access to the internet because I never watched the show. Maybe that's what his private videography room was used for.

[RazzleberryPie]

Putting the pieces together is actually very important to processing and understanding.   We are doing much the same thing here, trying to figure out what happened when and who did what when.   It's actually what law enforcement and lawyers do all the time.   We hear something from witness A and go "that's nice."   Then we hear something from Witness B and go "hey, that goes with what Witness A said, let's dig some more."   And suddenly it all clicks.   When it happens during a trial, we call it a Perry Mason moment.   

 

I'm fine with WaPo putting together a timeline.   It gives people something concrete to go with rather than just pure speculation about the events.   If someone says "Oh well, they went to law enforcement on such and such a date" you can look at the timeline to see if that is accurate or not.  Then make up your own mind.

 

BTW, since I have a functioning brain I can be up in arms about Josh AND Benghazi at the same time.

I appreciate the timeline, too. It indicates good journalism, by listing facts in a clear, orderly manner, which helps readers understand the order of everything.

[MarysWetBar]

I can't stand that know-it-all asshole. I've disliked him ever since the first time he posting on his blog, after hitching his wagon to the Duggar Fame Train. His wife came off well during the wedding broadcasts, but he's a first class creeper. And the fact that he defends the way the Duggar parents handled the situation (which was a complete and epic FAIL), despite the fact that his DAUGHTER-IN-LAW and mother of his first grandchild, was likely molested as a child, is mind-numbing.

Jessa is your family, and SHE deserves your support more than the Duggar Gravy Train does. Are you THAT desperate for your son to remain on a viable Duggar payroll, that you would defend the way this was handled? You can actually look Jessa in the face, now? Amazing, and not in a good way.

Well the way i look at it is that if its that easy for Steve Carrell lite to forgive Josh, he won't mind sending his underage daughters on a tour in the RV with Josh or having them stay with him to help Anna with the new baby. Edited May 24, 2015 by MarysWetBar

[becca3891]

I wondered about Alice's remarks about Josh and internet pornography too. I'm wondering if in 2002-2003, Boob and J'Chelle were not yet aware of what could be found online and their rules about only J'Chelle and Jana having the password and having to have an accountability partner with you on the internet were the result of what Josh confessed to looking at.

 

I don't think the Washington post timeline is a bad or invasive thing. Sadly, the identities of the victims have never been a secret, and there seems to be a lot of confusion for some people on what happened when, so clarifying can only be a good thing.

[Magoo]

Re-reading the "Alice" comments makes me feel like she may have been a member of the production crew/producer who was there in the early years but didn't stay with the show. The way it's written gives the air of a secular outsider's disgust for this family. She was definitely in the know. I wonder if she will come forward now, even if still anonymously, to answer more questions.

[bluebonnet]

 

It creeps me out, too. I just feel like putting together a detailed timeline and/or trying to find out the names of the victims is just so...IDK. I feel like it's intended to satisfy the curiosity of the public when it really doesn't help any of the victims. 

I don't want to speak for others, so here are reasons I find the timeline to be important.

 

1.) It removes power from the abuser and his supporters.  With facts established and presented in a coherent fashion, the abuser and his supporters are no longer able to create their own narrative without rebuttal.  

 

2.) It prevents or at least cuts down on rampant wild speculation.  These are the facts, this is when it happened, this is who knew, period.  Further, it creates an expectation that any new facts must be properly researched to determine validity because if they don't fit with what is already known, they don't deserve to be part of the discussion.

 

3.) It helps me to understand how Josh was able to skip out on any meaningful punishments, and how his parents might have aided.  The law isn't always fair and it's not always right.  Josh's victims may have been further victimized by the law.  I want to understand how and why and I want to know what can be done to change it.  The only way to understand is to look at the law, then look at the known timeline.

 

4.) This is a public family.  It's also an extremely isolated family.  Once they were put on tv, the children became even more isolated than they already were, not to mention the show created a narrative of the family that the children are pressured to follow even when they are not technically working.  Reality tv can be very hard on the children because they are in a near constant state of working.  I need the timeline to be able to determine what the network could have known and when they could have known it.  I think it's important to discuss what we should expect from the networks and what sort of laws and regulations we should push for to protect the children.  For example, if the network knew, should we hold them accountable for anything?  Should we allow children to be reality show employees at all?  Should we require that children on tv meet with an independent licensed counsellor X number of times throughout their employment to monitor their well-being?  Should networks be expected to vet their reality star casts?  And so forth and so on.  

 

5.) The timeline indicates that the tv show can't shoulder all the blame or responsibility.  Outside of tv, the timeline indicates that a political campaign could have also impeded justice and treatment for all those involved.  Should we have different guidelines for what we expect when it comes to the family of politicians?  We're so used to see the family, including young children, being part of their campaign narrative.  Is this harmful?  Is it too much work to place on a child's shoulders?  Does it create a dangerous environment for children?  Children usually aren't part of their parents jobs or the interviews to obtain them.  Does this horrible event justify creating more protections for the children of politicians?  

 

These are just a few reasons the timeline is so important, and for me, it really is all about the victims even if when discussing these things I don't explicitly mention them or future victims.  I want to have the facts before I begin writing my letters to sponsors, networks, lawmakers, police departments, fundies, etc.    

[kathe5133]

I was creeped out by the timeline. Was. I think it brought out in me how some people, not on this site, but some people troll the Internet for answers to thing that are truly none of their business so they can appear "in the know". I don't feel that applies to folks on this site. The Duggars put their lives out there, preached a godly message and are now found to be hypocrites. We would bash them for tater tot casserole and j'slaves, but no one here really thought anything that wrong was going on. This search for facts is necessary for some to come to terms with what was found out, and the timeline does put thing in perspective. The girls do need privacy, but the mods here are very careful to advise all of us when they think things might go too far. The thoughtful, sensitive comments I know are found to be helpful. There are a wide variety of backgrounds here and it is nice that people have a place to share their stories and learn to understand.

Edited May 24, 2015 by kathe5133

[Mrsjumbo]

I keep coming up with more and more things that make me furious about this whole thing - it's like an endless river of anger and sadness...

If Michelle and JB decided to just "pray away" the sins of Josh and sweep the whole thing under the rug, then why, WHY, did they keep doing it when it was obvious that it hadn't stopped ?! In fact, it EXPANDED. More instances. More victims. More girls left to blame themselves for what looks to be a lifetime of shame and self-doubt. And JB and Michelle were...fine with that ?

Josh, that creepy, doughy, pale, fat, fuckface - he ALWAYS gave off some seriously bad vibes, something that got under my skin or made the hair on the back of my neck stand up, but I could never quite place what it was. At times I thought he must be the kid who masturbates constantly in the shower or is always trying to hide an erection, but who cares ?!?! Teenage boys are horn dogs and that's just the way it is - fine with me. But this goes so far beyond the feeling you get when someone stands too close to you in an elevator - discomfort and unease. It's physically revolting.

With all the revelations come to light now I see his picture and it's like looking at Charles Manson or something - he's just so snug, toasty, and comfy in the knowledge that "Jesus has forgiven him". But has he really ? Don't you have to be actually sorry for what you DID, and not just for getting caught ?

Here's my take - My older (and MUCH bigger) sister physically abused me for years, and I'm not talking about bullying or punching me in the arm. She'd choke me until I was unconscious. Lock me in closets for HOURS. Push me down flights of steps. Force me to eat dirt or dog food. My mother was fully aware and laughed it off as "childhood shenanigans" - she was also mentally ill but that's another story. When my father was FINALLY told he immediately separated us, and from then until I finally moved out he protected me and I was never alone with her. He wanted to leave and take me with him but in the 70s who's going to give custody to the father ? My sister went to counseling, which did nothing, but my dad insisted they at least try. My mother continued to behave like nothing had happened, like she'd put a whoopee cushion on my chair instead of beating me until I lost teeth and needed stitches. But thank God I had one normal parent who did his very best to keep me safe. He's gone now, but I continue to love him as my hero and savior, and I miss him every day. In a house simply FILLED with crazy he was my sanity.

So that's how it happens - you get a kid who's a "bad seed" and parent/parents who are blind to it, crazy, or directed by some trumped-up cult of patriarchal, misogynistic bullshit and the whole world turns upside-down. The fact the the girls had NO ONE, neither father nor mother, nor grandma, either, apparently, is just so heartbreaking it makes me physically ill. All the feelings of loneliness, betrayal, and probably the constant, unending fear that Josh would just keep moving down the line age-wise with the other girls must have made those poor girls feel like they'd been abandoned by the very God they'd been raised to love and obey.

I hope Josh loses everything. I hope Anna gets away with all the kids and finds support and financial help from OUTSIDE the Gothards so she can start her life over. I hope ALL the kids get the Hell outta dodge, maybe staying with the older girls, married or not, and they can make new lives together with the only REAL mother they've ever known.

And JB and Michelle ? I hope they get old and get stuck in the shittiest horrorshow of a nursing home in existence. They Michelle can say "I have 19 children and I delivered them ALL, and now NONE of them come to visit me..."

[leighroda]

I'm not really a fan of the "they chose to be public figures" line of thinking as far as speculation goes. Yes Jim Bob and Michelle chose to be public figures, and Josh has chosen to be a public figure himself, and is ultimately responsible for his own actions... But the victims did not have control of what happened, and I'm not convinced some of them were ever 100% on board with being on TV (ie Jana)(disclaimer, I am not saying for fact Jana was a victim, I don't know that, just more that I don't know if she wants to be on tv), so while I don't really care how Josh or his parents get drug through the dirt for it, I do hope for the victims sake this can be handled more privately.

[Mrsjumbo]

I would love to make "Josh that creepy, doughy, pale, fat, fuckface" the title of this thread.

[Darknight]

I don't agree with thumpers saying this coming out is old move on and it re victimize the victim. I agree with the re the victims may be re victimize but they were re victimize everyday when they were forced to forgive, look at their abuser everyday, and then chaperone him for his wedding and dates.

I'm not really a fan of the "they chose to be public figures" line of thinking as far as speculation goes. Yes Jim Bob and Michelle chose to be public figures, and Josh has chosen to be a public figure himself, and is ultimately responsible for his own actions... But the victims did not have control of what happened, and I'm not convinced some of them were ever 100% on board with being on TV (ie Jana)(disclaimer, I am not saying for fact Jana was a victim, I don't know that, just more that I don't know if she wants to be on tv), so while I don't really care how Josh or his parents get drug through the dirt for it, I do hope for the victims sake this can be handled more privately.

Which is why there should be laws in place for things like this

[Happyfatchick]

The lyrics/song title: “When the walls come crumbling down" comes to mind with this situation.

This quote by Abraham Lincoln really nails it: “You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time".

I think the walls came "tumbling" down - there was a childhood song about the walls of Jericho came tum-ble-Ing down. Also that band, the Traveling Wilburys sang a song "...and the wa-alls came "tum-ble-ing, tum-ble-ing"... I'm pretty sure if aging myself out right now.

Ah, BrianJ, you've had SUCH a tough time of it. My heart truly goes out to you. So many people have shared tough stories on here the last few days - I feel like, WOW, who KNEW???? I feel so blessed and lucky to have made adulthood without really ever having to live thru some of the horrendous things we've heard, including your story. My heart just cracks in half for those hard growing up stories! I hope everybody who has shared and will share landed softly and that things are truly better now.

[Muffyn]

I believe for anyone who experiences sexual assault, it's not a one and done in terms of counseling. It's a process that happens over one's lifetime. There are many triggers.

This is exactly why this story has captured so many people's interest.  More and more discussion is taking place regarding rape culture and victim blaming in terms of placing the blame for sexual assault and domestic violence on the victims.  At the same time, we have a public forum given to the Duggars to preach their beliefs that young girls need to be covered up to keep from "defrauding" boys and men, leading them to sin.  The onus is placed firmly on the girls and women.  Additionally the men are harmed by this ridiculous assertion that they cannot control themselves.   JB&M fed this crap to their children.  Josh helps spread it further.

 

Reading this board, so many people have mentioned their history of familial abuse or rape.  You can add me to that count.  While I know there are people that don't like the term triggers since, as often happens, it may be hitting the point of overuse, this story is a trigger for so many people who have been abused.  So thanks to Josh, JB & Michelle, so many people are now reliving or rethinking horrific events from their past. 

 

The Duggars have held themselves up as a perfect family, one to which we should all aspire.  Underneath that picture was a perverted elder son who was able to abuse his sisters and non-family members.  He repented, but did he atone?  From the smug douche bag we have seen, I doubt he did.

 

Oh dear. Josh would've been around 18 or 19 at that time, correct? *not a lawyer* Could he still have been tracked for juvenile offenses? I think a trial opens a lot of possibilities. All bad. Plus the records were sealed. FFS Anna, please get an annulment. God hates divorce. He loves annulments!

And now I want a bumper sticker that reads "God loves annulments". 

[leighdear]

while I don't really care how Josh or his parents get drug through the dirt for it, I do hope for the victims sake this can be handled more privately.

Totally support and agree with this.  The unholy trinity of Josh, Jim Bob & Michelle are the only ones I want to see held accountable.  Though I still say it's open season on the fat-mouth blowhards that benefit financially from the famewhoring, like Michael Seewald. 

[Maizie131]

I would love to make "Josh that creepy, doughy, pale, fat, fuckface" the title of this thread.

Aaaaaaah!  A little levity!  'Tis GOOD!! 

[NextIteration]

Conspiracy types are speculating that the mainstream media is latching onto Duggargate to distract the masses from more important news stories likes the Trans-Pacific Partnership, Jade Helm, Rand Paul's filibuster or even the various marches against Monsanto this weekend.

 

Ha!  That's hilarious.  Why wouldn't the "lame stream media" pick up on a story that has melted down the internet? ;)

 

I didn't even notice the part of the trial - I was just looking for a timeline for how things unfolded this week!

[Fuzzysox]

I would love to make "Josh that creepy, doughy, pale, fat, fuckface" the title of this thread.

LOL Yes please.

 

Today I've thought of Anna all day. I'm sure she is hurting. She doesn't deserve all this stress when she is pregnant. I don't like her stand by her man stance but I do feel for her situation.

[JoanArc]

 

And now I want a bumper sticker that reads "God loves annulments".

It seems they're harder to get than I thought. Maybe Anna could get a divorce then ask the congregation for forgiveness. That seems to be a solid option with these folk. *Barf* FWIW I think they got the marriage license in Arkansas, but had the ceremony in Florida.

 

On another note, I'm overjoyed to see ATI/Gothard entering mass consciousness. The internet has ranted for years about it, but the major media has downplayed or ignored it, but no longer. It's a front page story now. I hope it brings down ATI (or whatever it call itself now). Maybe that's just a dream. They'll keep existing members, and there will always be leghumpers to join, but they need a certain number of followers to stay viable.

 

[snip]

Edited May 24, 2015 by Rhondinella
potentially inflammatory