Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[libgirl2]

11 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

That smugness was born and bred into him by his parents, who continually swept his "curiosity" under the rug and continued to parade him around as the Golden Fundie Prince from that famous tv family.  Not saying Josh couldn't have grown up to do deplorable things no matter who he was, but maybe if Jim Bob and Michelle had not looked the other way when he molested his own sisters, he'd have either gotten serious help or gotten caught and disciplined much earlier.  If FF wasn't even seriously punished for attacking members of his own family under his parents' roof, then it's no wonder he thought he was untouchable.

He did face punishment that they thought was appropriate and might scare someone else straight, but not him. He just went along with it, said the right words and bided his time. Just like he is going to do now. If he would have showed remorse, took a plea deal, made a statement in court... something that showed he knows he did wrong. 

[GeeGolly]

7 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

He did face punishment that they thought was appropriate and might scare someone else straight, but not him. He just went along with it, said the right words and bided his time. Just like he is going to do now. If he would have showed remorse, took a plea deal, made a statement in court... something that showed he knows he did wrong. 

I agree. For most kids Josh's punishment would have felt very big, very severe at his age then. Even his time in Jesus Jail wasn't too different to what drug rehabs look like. But I don't think any amount of treatment and/or punishment way back when, or now, will show any true improvements.

[lovesnark]

43 minutes ago, BradandJanet said:

Didn't Josh's rehab consisted of painting a guy's barn or doing some kind of physical labor between prayer sessions? I don't think Josh was ever in any kind of professional  treatment program. 

I think that's what happened when he molested his sisters and the friend. When the Ashley Madison scandal broke, I believe he went to some fundie 'rehab' for porn and sex. He's never had any actual therapy, just the fundie 'pray it away' type.

[Absolom]

The Reformer program is generalized addiction.  There was nothing specific to Josh's issues.  Most people are there for drugs or alcohol.  Josh went because of "porn."  It's a bunch of labor and Jesusy meetings.  The only good it seemed to do Josh was he dropped some weight.  

[Ms Norman Maine]

Longtime lurker, first-time poster. IMO Josh’s gross character is both nature and nurture. His parents aren’t solely to blame but Josh could not have been brought up by two more enabling people when it comes to shaping his personality.

 I’m a bit torn about Anna. I grew up in the South and attended Southern Baptist churches during my girlhood, though they were garden/country club not snakehandlin’. Who knows how Anna would have evolved if she had not been brought up in such restrictive environment.

ii says this for a couple of reasons. When George Floyd was murdered Anna posted a empathetic comment. There was no “Well it’s sad he died but it was really his fault”. Nope, just a note about the pain his family must feel.

Also, though Anna shouldn’t be homeschooling as she has no real teaching experience, IMO she takes excellent care of her kids. At least in photos they’re always clean, their clothes fit, hair is brushed and the girl’s have theirs fixed in complex styles. She might have help from the younger J girls but considering how THEY look I’m pretty sure it’s Anna in charge f clothes and hair. Also her house looks clean and it seems as if she does her best to make the warehouse look as homey and attractive as possible.

And I feel sorry for her because deep down I’m pretty sure she knows Josh really doesn’t love her, he would have never picked her if not forced to choose a bride quickly. Josh’s dream woman looked like someone who appears on Fox News and would have helped him up the political ladder.

On the other hand, she needs to put her kids first. But then she has no training and if she divorced Josh she might fear Jim Blob would disown her and not support her and the kids.

My feelings about Josh are not complicated. He was born a little turd and grew up to be a big POS.

[BigBingerBro]

I still would like to know the reasoning behind them moving into the warehouse annex.  Was is a move to ensure that if they owed a home it could not be taken from them?

[libgirl2]

4 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

I still would like to know the reasoning behind them moving into the warehouse annex.  Was is a move to ensure that if they owed a home it could not be taken from them?

I always thought it was so JB could keep an eye of him and maybe to provide some kind of support for Anna after all that happened. 

[Ljohnson1987]

Will Josh have to vet his children's future partners from prison? 

[Notabug]

7 minutes ago, Ljohnson1987 said:

Will Josh have to vet his children's future partners from prison? 

Well, we cannot expect Anna, a mere woman, to do it herself.  For that matter, her taste in spouses is a little suspect.  I suppose JB might serve in his place, just like the first runner up to Miss America.

[YupItsMe]

I saw it reported somewhere that Josh signaled “I love you” to Anna (sign language, I suppose) in the courtroom. Was it ever mentioned how Anna reacted or if she responded?

[Readalot]

34 minutes ago, YupItsMe said:

I saw it reported somewhere that Josh signaled “I love you” to Anna (sign language, I suppose) in the courtroom. Was it ever mentioned how Anna reacted or if she responded?

I read she did the same back to Convicted Josh. 

[ALittleShelfish]

3 hours ago, Rabbittron said:

He will reoffend 5 minutes after he gets out of prison. 

As soon as he hops in the car, if not on the walk TO the car, he's gonna ask to borrow someone's phone "just to check something real quick".  I hope by then technology has advanced enough that facial recognition lock screens will see his mug and flash a screen that says "NO SIR, NO YOU MAY NOT CHECK ANYTHING REAL QUICK. GOOD BYE."

[Tikichick]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree. For most kids Josh's punishment would have felt very big, very severe at his age then. Even his time in Jesus Jail wasn't too different to what drug rehabs look like. But I don't think any amount of treatment and/or punishment way back when, or now, will show any true improvements.

Treatment may not have helped Josh.  (At this point it would be almost salt in the wound to know that it would have.)   Real punishment from authorities other than his parents would have at least meant the family would have been on the radar of child protective professionals, which may have helped his siblings.

Solid professional treatment in the aftermath of what he did to them likely would have done his victims good, especially if they were getting any sort of input from their parents or anyone else that they had any share of the blame for what happened to them -- which actually may have left more marks than what Josh did to them if the account that they were asleep and unaware is true.

[Salacious Kitty]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

I always thought it was so JB could keep an eye of him and maybe to provide some kind of support for Anna after all that happened. 

But they lived in Siloam Springs for a time after they returned from DC. I remember the brothers scrambling to get the place ready after Smuggar's hasty departure from the FRC. I don't recall exactly how long they lived there, but it was for a little while, maybe a year? They sold the place a couple of years ago, making a tidy sum that they've probably been living off of since. Until they had to sell off property to pay the lawyers, at any rate. 

[mimionthebeach]

Reading through this thread and thinking of Anna I keep thinking of Amy Winehouse, strung out and looking so ill when her husband was in jail. Poor delusional Anna, hanging on to reality by the thinnest of threads, wailing "My JoshUa, incarcerated!"

[ginger90]

15 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

But they lived in Siloam Springs for a time after they returned from DC. I remember the brothers scrambling to get the place ready after Smuggar's hasty departure from the FRC. I don't recall exactly how long they lived there, but it was for a little while, maybe a year? They sold the place a couple of years ago, making a tidy sum that they've probably been living off of since. Until they had to sell off property to pay the lawyers, at any rate. 

It was purchased on 5/31/2019 for $285,000. It was sold on 2/7/2020 for $318,000. Unless there was another Siloam Springs house, they didn’t make much.

Edited May 26, 2022 by ginger90

[Salacious Kitty]

No, this was a rundown property they bought when they still lived in DC. It was mostly land. The boys spruced it up to make the place liveable for when they reutrned from DC back in 2015. I think they sold the place in 2018 or thereabouts. They've been in the warehouse for several years. 

[GeeGolly]

8 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

It was purchased on 5/31/2019 for $285,000. It was sold on 2/7/2020 for $318,000. Unless there was another Siloam Springs house, they didn’t make much.

And if that was the house on the little hill, I'm going to guess they lost money. I believe they renoed at least the kitchen and possibly built a deck.

[Salacious Kitty]

2 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

And if that was the house on the little hill, I'm going to guess they lost money. I believe they renoed at least the kitchen and possibly built a deck.

Yes, that is a different property that needed a ton of rehab, but was purchased after they returned to Arkansas.  

Edited May 26, 2022 by Salacious Kitty

[ginger90]

3 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

No, this was a rundown property they bought when they still lived in DC. It was mostly land. The boys spruced it up to make the place liveable for when they reutrned from DC back in 2015. I think they sold the place in 2018 or thereabouts. They've been in the warehouse for several years. 

Was it the one with the kitchen below? They celebrated Josh’s birthday there if I recall?

[Salacious Kitty]

38 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

Was it the one with the kitchen below? They celebrated Josh’s birthday there if I recall?

Wow, I can't say for sure. All their decor, from house to house, is the same! 

[crazy8s]

54 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

No, this was a rundown property they bought when they still lived in DC. It was mostly land. The boys spruced it up to make the place liveable for when they reutrned from DC back in 2015. I think they sold the place in 2018 or thereabouts. They've been in the warehouse for several years. 

The gray house on the hill - for some reason I am remembering that house was "sold" to travis story. probably not remembering correctly

"Josh Duggar is uprooting his family and moving to a home he purchased earlier this year in Siloam Springs, Arkansas for $55,000. 

Since resigning his post at the Family Research Council (FRC) lobbying group in Washington D.C., last week, shell-shocked Josh and his wife Anna have been readying themselves for a move back near the Duggar family compound in Tontitown. 

The 27-year old 19 Kids and Counting star made a smart business move when he purchased the almost 3,000 square foot, five-bedroom, two-bath bank owned home on January 20, 2015. 

The Duggar family has been helping Josh and Anna remodel the home, which had fallen into disrepair after it was repossessed from the previous owners."

[Salacious Kitty]

YES! That's the house I'm referring to! Thanks @crazy8s!

[crazy8s]

ALB Investments llc (Travis Story) bought the house from Josh and Anna for $65,000 in Aug. 2015 and sold it for $285,000 in May 2019. ALB Investments has since charged to Anna and Travis Story listed as the registered agents. The house sold once after that, in 2020 for $318.000 to non duggars or any sweet friends.

from the Daily Mail 

"EXCLUSIVE: Josh Duggar's 'dream home' was sold to mystery investment company tied to longtime member of family's inner circle two days before porn star accused him of 'violent' paid-for sex sessions

Josh and Anna Duggar sold 5-bedroom Siloam Springs, Arkansas home to ALB Investments, LLC on August 24 for $65,000

ALB Investments was registered by Duggar family attorney and longtime friend Travis Story, who is also member of family's Cross Church

Address used to register ALB Investments is same as Josh and Anna Duggar's home that was just sold

Under Arkansas law, ownership of such companies is confidential. Lawyer Story has declined to comment to Daily Mail Online 

On August 26, porn star Danica Dillon revealed she had two sexual encounters with Duggar. She filed $500,000 lawsuit last week 

On paper, the Duggars made a $10,000 profit on home that they bought just eight months prior

But based on property websites Zillow, Trulia and Realtor.com, the home has been valued up to $178,000"

Edited May 27, 2022 by crazy8s

[ginger90]

22 minutes ago, crazy8s said:

"Josh Duggar is uprooting his family and moving to a home he purchased earlier this year in Siloam Springs, Arkansas for $55,000. 

It is the house then.

[Salacious Kitty]

Yeah, that's definitely the trajectory of the property I was referencing. 

[graefin]

5 hours ago, laurakaye said:

That smugness was born and bred into him by his parents, who continually swept his "curiosity" under the rug and continued to parade him around as the Golden Fundie Prince from that famous tv family.  Not saying Josh couldn't have grown up to do deplorable things no matter who he was, but maybe if Jim Bob and Michelle had not looked the other way when he molested his own sisters, he'd have either gotten serious help or gotten caught and disciplined much earlier.  If FF wasn't even seriously punished for attacking members of his own family under his parents' roof, then it's no wonder he thought he was untouchable.

There's also a kind of delicious irony in all of this. JB and Michelle have sought to literally isolate themselves and their family from the "evils" of the outside world for as long as we know, such that they all have only ever (mostly) worked for themselves so they don't have to submit to anyone else's authority.

But in the final analysis, their crown prince HAS NO CHOICE but to submit to an outside authority (serve his sentence). For control freaks like these, it must eat them up inside that there's not a damn thing they can do about it.

Edited May 27, 2022 by graefin

[Lady Whistleup]

I think JB and Michelle thought they did intervene. They did what they could given their limited toolbox and worldview. They thought more Jesus was necessary for Josh, so they sent him to Jesusy camps. They thought that fraternizing with the sisters was a problem, so they enacted strict rules about contact between male and female siblings. 

They didn't know how to give Josh the help he needed, but they didn't do nothing.

And I'm sure part of JB and Michelle are heartbroken about Josh. I think they know the truth about him. I'm not sure they'll ever thread the needle about how much their harsh fundamentalist views might have damaged the sisters Josh molested, but I don't think they're as blind as Anna.

[emmawoodhouse]

41 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I think JB and Michelle thought they did intervene. They did what they could given their limited toolbox and worldview. They thought more Jesus was necessary for Josh, so they sent him to Jesusy camps. They thought that fraternizing with the sisters was a problem, so they enacted strict rules about contact between male and female siblings. 

They didn't know how to give Josh the help he needed, but they didn't do nothing.

And I'm sure part of JB and Michelle are heartbroken about Josh. I think they know the truth about him. I'm not sure they'll ever thread the needle about how much their harsh fundamentalist views might have damaged the sisters Josh molested, but I don't think they're as blind as Anna.

I think Meech is heartbroken and still in a bit of denial. Not Anna levels of delusion, but a state of disbelief, nonetheless. I think she is adept at avoiding the truth.

Boob was PISSED when he left the court. He knows exactly what the stakes are and how this verdict has ruined the Duggar brand for good. 

[Rabbittron]

9 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Boob was PISSED when he left the court. He knows exactly what the stakes are and how this verdict has ruined the Duggar brand for good. 

Just like a Phoenix I am expecting that family to rise through and above the ashes .

.

[emmawoodhouse]

Just now, Rabbittron said:

Just like a Phoenix I am expecting that family to rise through and above the ashes .

.

Nah, they're poison now. The wholesome image they sold is gone. 

[Absolom]

Most of the older children seem to have recognized the emperor has no clothes.  I think all but the most deluded fans have recognized the Duggars aren't what they represented.

[Tuxcat]

24 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I think Meech is heartbroken and still in a bit of denial. Not Anna levels of delusion, but a state of disbelief, nonetheless. I think she is adept at avoiding the truth.

Boob was PISSED when he left the court. He knows exactly what the stakes are and how this verdict has ruined the Duggar brand for good. 

Totally agree about JB. I don't think he has an ounce of remorse or sadness about this. He is mainly concerned about the Duggar brand.

However I think that Michelle knows. Yes she wrote the letter but I would honestly expect most mothers to write a letter. I think she likely feels deep shame and guilt for what happened to her girls. It's clear that Jason and James were at the courthouse supporting Joy. Michelle has got to see  how all of this has burdened her other children.She is still close with Jinger at least - so I feel certain she has heard the older girls perspectives. Even Jill has said that she sees her mother more than JB. Derrick's rants are always at JB as well.

As a mom, you are still going to hope for your child and you won't lose sight of trying to find the good in the midst of the horrible. It doesn't mean she is blind. It means she's a mom.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Tuxcat

[jcbrown]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I think JB and Michelle thought they did intervene. They did what they could given their limited toolbox and worldview. They thought more Jesus was necessary for Josh, so they sent him to Jesusy camps. They thought that fraternizing with the sisters was a problem, so they enacted strict rules about contact between male and female siblings. 

And that's the thing, isn't it? Even if Boob and MEchelle had done the right thing it may not have helped. They needed therapy themselves to break out of their patriarchal cult before any real help for the kids would have been that effective. Imagine the kids having therapy and coming back to the comparative cognitive dissonance of their home life. The cult is the first problem.

The Ashley has posted an interesting piece about Smuggar's post-release conditions: https://www.theashleysrealityroundup.com/2022/05/25/exclusive-josh-duggar-must-follow-specific-conditions-upon-his-prison-release-no-unsupervised-access-to-his-kids-no-internet-no-marijuana-more/

Edited May 27, 2022 by jcbrown

[emmawoodhouse]

2 minutes ago, jcbrown said:

And that's the thing, isn't it? Even if Boob and MEchelle had done the right thing it may not have helped. They needed therapy themselves to break out of their patriarchal cult before any real help for the kids would have been that effective. Imagine the kids having therapy and coming back to the comparative cognitive dissonance of their home life. The cult is the first problem.

I think that's where Jill is today. She can see from outside in a way her enmeshed siblings (or parents) can't. 

[merylinkid]

2 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

And I'm sure part of JB and Michelle are heartbroken about Josh. I think they know the truth about him.

And this is based on what?   Michelle has kids and hands them off to the nearest older child to take care of. She has said she had to pray to have a heart for kids.   Josh may be the oldest so she couldn't hand him off quickly, but that doesn't mean she ever CARED about him.   And let's just say that Josh comes by his narcissicism naturally.   JB cares about JB.   Even protecting the family brand is about protecting himself.    He has never shown he CARES about the kids, only controlling them and making sure that they don't make HIM look bad.

Let's face it, anyone who supports "blanket training" really doe not like kids all that much.   

As for the house shenanigans.   How cooooonvenient they were able to get it out of Josh's name RIGHT BEFORE a new scandal for which he could have been sued broke.   You don't think they had an IDEA this might happen do you?   Like I said yesterday, the conviction could be the crack in the wall that brings it all down and I hope Travis Story is not that fond of his law license.

[emmawoodhouse]

Travis Story is shady as hell. Not to mention, he doesn't seem too bright. 

[GeeGolly]

I watched the show for years and I have no doubt JB & M love their kids. They truly suck as parents - part of that is their personalities, part cult and part too many kids, but they love them.

As far as the Duggar brand, that ship sailed when Josh was arrested and its fate was sealed upon conviction. IMO, JB wanted 5 years because Josh is his son and for Anna, who I think he also loves.

[emmawoodhouse]

There have to be some Duggar leghumpers out there who continue to believe that Smuggar is innocent/framed. I considered looking for these people, but my stomach isn't that strong. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by emmawoodhouse

[woodscommaelle]

Can he drink on probation? Why wasn’t that mentioned?

Do we know if any of them drink?

[Heathen]

36 minutes ago, woodscommaelle said:

Can he drink on probation? Why wasn’t that mentioned?

Do we know if any of them drink?

Jill and Jinger might drink occasionally, but none of the other original Duggars do as far as I know. 

I'm curious why the devil's lettuce was singled out for mention.

[emmawoodhouse]

I don't think Jinger drinks. The only one who gas admitted to drinking is Jill. 

As for pot, that's probably boilerplate language. Pot might be legal in some states (certainly not Arkansas!), but it's not legal on the national level. 

[madpsych78]

Seagoville, Texas is about 45 minutes away from my house. If he goes there, he will be in the suburbs of Dallas. 

Justin and the Spiveys, as well as David and Priscilla are a little farther as they are closer to Fort Worth.

[ChiCricket]

4 hours ago, jcbrown said:

The Ashley has posted an interesting piece about Smuggar's post-release conditions: https://www.theashleysrealityroundup.com/2022/05/25/exclusive-josh-duggar-must-follow-specific-conditions-upon-his-prison-release-no-unsupervised-access-to-his-kids-no-internet-no-marijuana-more/

Interesting article, especially this part:

"He must partake in a sex offender treatment program.

While the judge mentioned during the sentencing that one of the Federal Corrections Institutions being considered for Josh has a “good sex offender program,” he did not state that Josh needed to partake in it. On the minute sheet, however, the judge makes it clear that Josh’s participation in one of these programs is required. He also has to pay for it."

 I thought it was discussed here that it was voluntary and that he'd probably never do it? (not that I think it would help) 

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, ChiCricket said:

Interesting article, especially this part:

"He must partake in a sex offender treatment program.

While the judge mentioned during the sentencing that one of the Federal Corrections Institutions being considered for Josh has a “good sex offender program,” he did not state that Josh needed to partake in it. On the minute sheet, however, the judge makes it clear that Josh’s participation in one of these programs is required. He also has to pay for it."

 I thought it was discussed here that it was voluntary and that he'd probably never do it? (not that I think it would help) 

I didn't read the article, but possibly in jail it can't be mandated, but as part of Josh's release it can?

[js9548]

Also, the Ashley article talks about random polygraph tests.  If that is true, isn't Josh clever enough to fool those type of tests?  I guess I thought those types of tests were not used in the justice system because they are not always accurate. 

[GeeGolly]

9 minutes ago, js9548 said:

Also, the Ashley article talks about random polygraph tests.  If that is true, isn't Josh clever enough to fool those type of tests?  I guess I thought those types of tests were not used in the justice system because they are not always accurate. 

I'm not a lawyer, but I watch a lot of ID channel. It seems lie detectors are used a lot in the investigative stage, but they're not admissible in court. I think they're fairly hard to fool, and I'm guessing even harder to fool if done regularly.

[laurakaye]

15 hours ago, Ms Norman Maine said:

On the other hand, she needs to put her kids first. But then she has no training and if she divorced Josh she might fear Jim Blob would disown her and not support her and the kids.

Great post - this is the part where I struggle with regards to Anna and her brainwashing from birth...I don't see how she could leave even if she had the capacity to want to leave.  She has seven children - unless someone takes in all of them, she's stuck in a situation where, if she does see the light and tries to take steps to leave Josh, she's probably terrified that she would lose financial support from her father in law.  Now I would like to think that JB wouldn't be a big enough monster to allow seven kids to live on the street but I also don't think he's above making Anna believe that his support of her and Josh's kids is conditional on her towing the Jim Blob party line.  I am trying to imagine a life where my parents, my in-laws and my husband have trapped me into being unable to have an independent thought, and then left me to raise a posse of children on my own while telling me that my husband's sins are my fault.  Because even if she is thinking of leaving this cluster of a family, where can she possibly go unless one of her siblings has room and the money to support an additional 8 people?  I am both furious with her and incredibly sad for her.  I want someone to shake some sense into her but then also give her some means to escape this mess.  

[GeeGolly]

Anna's Fundiness certainly impacts her ability to leave, but mainstream folks go through similar situations all the time. Its almost never just one thing, but more likely a combination of a few things. They include love, socioeconomic status , self-esteem, faith, (co)dependency, health (physical & mental) supports, age...

Then there's the many reasons Anna needs to believe FF is innocent.

If Anna believes Josh is innocent, then nothing above matters. She would have no reason to think of leaving him. She has to get past step 1 before she can even think of step 2.

[madpsych78]

Ugh, I just had a thought that if Anna wanted to leave, Boob would only allow her to leave if she signed her parental rights over to him and Michelle.