Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Scarlett45]

11 minutes ago, Zella said:

It will be interesting to me if he ends up in one of the Texas prisons. In that case, I could see a chance she actually moves in with, say, the Wallers to be closer. But I don't think she's going to have the same logistical arrangements there that she has at the TTH, flawed as they may be. And I think that is true of anywhere Josh lands prison-wise. 

Edited to add: And truthfully I'm not sure how emotionally or mentally fragile Anna is right now. I assume she's likely pretty close to her breaking point, so I think the closer she is to any support system she has access to would be safer and better for all involved for the time being. 

I do not see Anna moving. There are too many practical resources for her at the TTH. (childcare, the comfort of routine AND financial support by JB).

I do see her visiting Josh as often as allowed but who knows how often that will be? Once or twice a month?

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

I'm not talking quality of support so much as quantity. Also, as tightly enmeshed as the Wallers and Kellers have been with Gothardism, I suspect their views very much align with the Duggars.

Their views are no doubt the same, but they aren’t quite as egregious and duplicitous as JB and Michelle. 

[Zella]

Just now, Cinnabon said:

Their views are no doubt the same, but they aren’t quite as egregious and duplicitous as JB and Michelle. 

I . . . am hesitant to assume they are instantly better without more solid proof. I don't think you ascend quite so high in the Gothard world as TFDW did without being egregious and duplicitous. 

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

I do not see Anna moving. There are too many practical resources for her at the TTH. (childcare, the comfort of routine AND financial support by JB).

I do see her visiting Josh as often as allowed but who knows how often that will be? Once or twice a month?

Will any of the kids who are pilots be willing to fly her back and forth to see Josh (who may be several or more states away)? Most don’t seem to like Josh at this point.

Just now, Zella said:

I . . . am hesitant to assume they are instantly better without more solid proof. I don't think you ascend quite so high in the Gothard world as TFDW did without being egregious and duplicitous. 

Well, yes. That’s why I said not QUITE as egregious and duplicitous. 😆

[GeeGolly]

4 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

A lot of people leave their state to avoid CPS. Many think that’s the reason for all of the Rodrigues’ moves. Arkansas CPS can’t travel to another state to find them. I don’t know why there is no communication between states in 2021, but here we are.

But they flew there for what? They haven't moved out of state since DC.

[Cinnabon]

Just now, GeeGolly said:

But they flew there for what? They haven't moved out of state since DC.

To avoid all the press in 2015 as well as any CPS visits . Why CPS didn’t follow up after they returned to Arkansas, I don’t know.

[Heathen]

25 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

CPS is very reluctant to take children away from their parents, and I doubt very seriously that Anna will lose custody.

What will likely happen -- and what should (IMO) have happened a long time ago -- is that the family will be under supervision. She may be required to send the children to school. They may receive actual medical care, and see real counselors to process their trauma.

I think that the Jana incident is related in the sense that the TTH is probably on their radar now. There was an incident a few years back where they refused to let CPS into the house, and I don't think that's going to be an option for them going forward.

@Zella, do you think, based on your knowledge of Arkansas, that Anna could be required to send her kids to school? Wouldn't "religious freedumb" take precedence? 

It occurred to me as I wrote this that Anna and Jim Bob could opt for a private Christian school, like the one Jim Bob himself graduated from, over a public school. So there would be that option, assuming the kids got financial aid or Jim Bob paid for it. 

[Zella]

5 minutes ago, Heathen said:

@Zella, do you think, based on your knowledge of Arkansas, that Anna could be required to send her kids to school? Wouldn't "religious freedumb" take precedence? 

I'm not as in the loop on homeschooling in the state as I was a few years ago, but the idea of them doing that would personally surprise me. I don't off-hand know of anyone who was forced to send their kids to school, even if their homeschooling was substandard. 

What I have personally observed at the library (pre-pandemic) is a regular schedule of a flock of moms checking out the homeschooling resources we have in August and maybe September and excitedly telling us about their homeschooling plans before the kids are back in public school within a matter of months because it was way harder than they thought. But none of them were forced to make that decision. 

Edited to add: Most of the conversations I remember homeschoolers having about government interference was a fear of the government taking kids away because of homeschooling rather than a fear of being forced to send their kids to public school. But this was quite a few years back, and I'm not sure how grounded it was in reality. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Zella

[Minivanessa]

9 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Anna should be able to handle her own 7 kids. She is supposed to be homeschooling them and Mack is old enough to be a sister mom 😢.

The reality is, that Anna hasn't had to take care of her kids all on her own, since Josh lost his FRC job and they moved back to Arkansas. And when she was doing the suburban life when Josh worked in DC, they only had three kids.

Whatever their official party line is about it, I'm pretty sure that since returning to Arkansas in 2015, Anna's had plenty of free labor from her sisters-in-law (the unmarried ones, of all ages) for child care and homeschooling. I doubt she's had to even load all the kids into the car without someone to help her - and I'm assuming Josh never lent a hand except maybe to put a kid in a carseat or get them out. 

[cmr2014]

26 minutes ago, Zella said:

It wouldn't surprise me if she considers it, but I don't think she will unless she takes some free Duggar labor her, and I'm not sure how willing any of the eligible ones would be to pack up and move wherever to possibly full-time nanny Anna's kids for her while she waits breathlessly for visitation. In fact, I think federal visitation rules mean they wouldn't get tons of visitation time, anyway, so I'm not really sure how practical that would be versus just having someone fly her in for a weekly visit. 

It will be interesting to me if he ends up in one of the Texas prisons. In that case, I could see a chance she actually moves in with, say, the Wallers to be closer. But I don't think she's going to have the same logistical arrangements there that she has at the TTH, flawed as they may be. And I think that is true of anywhere Josh lands prison-wise. 

Edited to add: And truthfully I'm not sure how emotionally or mentally fragile Anna is right now. I assume she's likely pretty close to her breaking point, so I think the closer she is to any support system she has access to would be safer and better for all involved for the time being. 

I'm not sure how much "free labor" Anna could expect. From what I've seen sister-momming seems to have gone the way of the high-button shoe, and I see very little child care coming from the lost girls.

I think many of us thought that the lost girls would be pressed into service when Jill and Jessa started having babies, but that doesn't really seem to have happened. It may be that the older daughters don't want to press their sisters into the role that was forced on them, or that they actually want to parent their own children. It would also probably require some coercion from J'chelle, and I don't really think she concerns herself with her grandchildren any more than she did with her own children.

She's under JB's "umbrella of authority" and he'll decide if she stays in the warehouse or moves to Texas (or wherever). He's certainly not going to set her up in her own household outside of some man's "authority."

[Jenniferbug]

Didn't she also have Cousin Emily living with them or at least around regularly to help? 

[Absolom]

27 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

I agree, it's cheaper for JB to keep Anna and the Ms around the TTH and to just fly her to whatever prison visits she's allowed to make.

Prior to COVID federal prison inmates were only assured of four hours of visits per month. Usually prisons were able to accommodate more.  After COVID in person visits stopped for a time and now are limited by space at each individual prison.  Anna might only get to see Josh once a month or every other month.  That's assuming she doesn't have to share visit time with other family members although they might be willing to give up that chance.   

[Tuxcat]

So lets see.

In the boys room: Jason (21) James (20) Jackson (17) and Tyler (13) plus maybe the Ms? 

Michael (10) Marcus(8) Mason (4)

In the girls room: Johanna (16) Jennifer (14) Jordyn (12) Josie (12) Mackenzie (12)

Meredith (6) Maryella (2) Madyson (0)

Buddy teams are no longer a thing but if the M's moved in they would probably pressure the lost girls + Mackenzie to take over.

It may be that the the J's were not officially in charge of the M's - which is how one little M went missing. But now, they are going to have to reform those teams.

Does Jana (31) really live in that girls room still?

Would Anna live in the girls room?

Didn't I read that Kendra and Joe moved off the compound? Maybe Anna and the M's move into the cabin?

[Scarlett45]

15 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I'm not sure how much "free labor" Anna could expect. From what I've seen sister-momming seems to have gone the way of the high-button shoe, and I see very little child care coming from the lost girls.

I dont think Johannah, Jordyn, Jennifer and Josie would be full on sister Moms, but from what I have seen from human nature and how large families tend to run, Anna would have a lot more help with her kids (also household chores and errands- like grocery shopping) staying at the TTH than moving out on her own in another state.

Having another adult (or teen) grocery shop, do some cleaning, hold onto your child while you run xyz errand is "free labor" to me, given that Anna cannot depend on a partner to do any of those things (like Josh, but we know Josh wasn't much help). She would lean on her in-laws, especially since she HAS been doing that all these years (outside of the time they lived in DC, but Anna only had 3 children then).

[BradandJanet]

Being sent to school would be the best thing ever to happen to the M-kids. Who knows, they might get enough education to get a real high school diploma and have ambitions to pursue a career. How many generations of semi-literate adults can JB's empire support? 

[Zella]

13 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Didn't I read that Kendra and Joe moved off the compound? Maybe Anna and the M's move into the cabin?

My guess is they will just still stay in the creepy warehouse. 

[Minivanessa]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

My guess is they will just still stay in the creepy warehouse. 

That's what I think too, especially for the immediate future. 

[mittsigirl]

21 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Me too. I'm in love with Keith Morrison. I want him to narrate my obituary.

I love his voice! Even after I watch an episode with him narrating, I save it because his voice is so comforting that it puts me to sleep, like a warm, weighted blanket!

[crazycatlady58]

If CPS investigates would they have an issue with two adult men sleeping in the same room as under age boys?

[Madtown]

55 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Will any of the kids who are pilots be willing to fly her back and forth to see Josh (who may be several or more states away)? Most don’t seem to like Josh at this point.

This was my question. Will JB make any of pilots fly her every week to see him, if he is placed out of state? As you said, most don't like him. 

[Quilt Fairy]

3 minutes ago, Madtown said:

This was my question. Will JB make any of pilots fly her every week to see him, if he is placed out of state? As you said, most don't like him. 

This may sound weird, but I think a lot of private pilots would take any excuse to fly. 

[Minivanessa]

3 minutes ago, Madtown said:

This was my question. Will JB make any of pilots fly her every week to see him, if he is placed out of state? As you said, most don't like him. 

I doubt she'd be able to visit him as often as weekly. See the post by @Absolom above about federal prison inmate visit policies.

[cmr2014]

30 minutes ago, Zella said:

My guess is they will just still stay in the creepy warehouse. 

I was thinking about this, and I think that that's JB's plan right now.

If, though, having Anna and the M's brings CPS creeping around, I wonder if he'd change his tune. I think there's a whole unit in the Gothard playbook about keeping CPS away from your house.

[Future Cat Lady]

I don't think Anna is going anywhere.  She has no means to support herself. JB and Michelle are scum but I don't see them kicking her out. Unless she divorces Josh, but I that's very unlikely.

[Jeanne222]

I could see JB sending Anna and the kids to Florida with her family.  I'm thinking both Michelle and Jana might be at their breaking point with a new round of kids to raise plus CPS poking around in maybe the whole families business.

Was Josh free roaming the homestead while the Duggers vacationed with the Bates and attended out of state weddings and parties.

Can you imagine having a sex offender at all family gatherings knowing what he did to his young sisters and that he was being investigated for child pornography!I

I remember Anna in Washington and what a good wife and mother she was.  I hope she's not already pregnant again!

[BetyBee]

I just realized that the M kids would qualify for SWAN4kids, JereMe's mother's charity....if they lived in Pennsylvania!

[ginger90]

I believe inmates get at least 4 hours of visiting time per month.

 

I wonder who Josh will put on his list.

[Albanyguy]

2 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

I heard and read in some spots that Anna was trying to have the kids spend the night with Josh at the Rebers. It was actually Josh who refused this arrangement because he didn't want to violate his bond (one of the few fair things he did).

I think it was really because he finds his children tiresome and resents anyone or anything that takes her attention away from waiting on him hand and foot.

[realityfan26]

Hearing of Anna's time spent with Josh instead of her children makes me wonder what happened with homeschooling this whole school year. I had the impression that Anna was very involved in schooling. I guess they were added to the dining room table.

[Absolom]

11 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

I believe inmates get at least 4 hours of visiting time per month.

They did pre-COVID.  Now individual prisons have to do what they can to manage visits within the COVID restrictions. 

[Jeanne222]

I wonder if Michelle is on overload with Josh and that's why we didn't see her at the courthouse?

Everybody, fundy  or not, has a breaking point.  Maybe the pictures and things happening to babies and small children  shown to the jury was hers!

Maybe Jinger is close to her mother because she was the one really sorry about what happened to her girls.

I do believe there are many secrets in the Duggers household.

[debbie311]

Anna doesn't work outside the home, correct? So she has seven children now.  THAT'S her job.  Why does she need help from her sisters-in-law or ANYONE else in the family to raise the kids?

The oldest is 12 and should not be put in the position of having to raise her younger siblings, but is past the age that needs constant supervision. It's the younger ones that need the most, but again, what else is she going to do with her time?  Sure, the family can relieve her occasionally for a respite, but for day-to-day assistance?  Give me a break.

In a conventional home, the children would be spending hours of the day in school, but I doubt that will happen here.  Her choice. I've got zero sympathy for her. I DO feel sorry for her children.

 

[cmr2014]

5 minutes ago, Albanyguy said:

I think it was really because he finds his children tiresome and resents anyone or anything that takes her attention away from waiting on him hand and foot.

I don't think Josh likes his kids much (and to be honest, I don't think that he cares much for Anna's company, either).

I don't think Josh is a pedophile in the sense of being interested in or attracted to children. I don't know a lot about this subject, but it's my understanding that pedophiles choose careers and activities that put them in the company of children. The make an effort to become coaches and mentors and put themselves into a position of trust with children.

I think that Josh is turned on by cruelty toward the weak and vulnerable. Outside of that, I think he has no interest in children, including his own.

[JennyMominFL]

2 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I don't think Josh likes his kids much (and to be honest, I don't think that he cares much for Anna's company, either).

I don't think Josh is a pedophile in the sense of being interested in or attracted to children. I don't know a lot about this subject, but it's my understanding that pedophiles choose careers and activities that put them in the company of children. The make an effort to become coaches and mentors and put themselves into a position of trust with children.

I think that Josh is turned on by cruelty toward the weak and vulnerable. Outside of that, I think he has no interest in children, including his own.

Josh doesnt really need to do that. Within the culture he lives in he has lots of access to children

[salvame]

So, today, news that Jana has been charged with endangering the welfare of a child?Nodetails, though. 

Random thought - this whole Joshie thing reminds me of "Flowers in the Attic" - I wonder if a large part of the problem stems from the forced denial of any sexual feelings or education. Any folks with a psychology background care to weigh in here?

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

Will any of the kids who are pilots be willing to fly her back and forth to see Josh (who may be several or more states away)? Most don’t seem to like Josh at this point.

 

They do like flying the planes, though, and being able to fly around in lieu of some other tasks that feel more like actual jobs. So I'd bet that at least someone'll be willing. I mean, they can tell themselves they're doing it for Anna and not for Josh, anyway. 

[JustRosie]

Genuine question..:Josh has been Anna’s headship since they married.  Was he supposed to be responsible for her prayers, relationship with God, her Christianity etc?  Now that he is locked up for years, will he continue to be her headship?  Will he be calling the shots from his cell?  Will her headship revert to her father  or will Jim Bob become her headship?

[Scarlett45]

21 minutes ago, salvame said:

Random thought - this whole Joshie thing reminds me of "Flowers in the Attic" - I wonder if a large part of the problem stems from the forced denial of any sexual feelings or education. Any folks with a psychology background care to weigh in here?

No I do not think this. I think Josh is a predator and an evil person. 

When you think of the Flowers in the Attic story( and the Dollanganger series)- Chris and Carrie lost their dad, were physiologically abused by their mother, starved by their grandmother and forced to be surrogate caregivers to their younger twin siblings. After what they had been through- them developing sexual/romantic feelings for each other didn't surprise me. They were too damaged to trust anyone else really and ended up pretending to be a married couple when the risk of conceiving a child was gone.

Josh did not engage in consensual sexual exploration with a peer, where it wasn't proper boundaries (because they were related, either legally or biologically) but not predatory. Josh preyed on his little sisters who trusted him- repeatedly. 

Very different scenarios in my mind. (In the Specials Forum we have an entire discussion on the Carrie/Chris relationship in Dollanganger series). 

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, BradandJanet said:

Being sent to school would be the best thing ever to happen to the M-kids. Who knows, they might get enough education to get a real high school diploma and have ambitions to pursue a career. How many generations of semi-literate adults can JB's empire support? 

If the law stays the way it is now, when Josh is released they'll have to make other schooling arrangements for whatever 17-and-unders remain. But that's six years away at the very least and maybe considerably longer .........

.And it's hard for me to imagine the state making Anna stop homeschooling before then. Allowing people to homeschool under most circumstances is a pretty important principle for a lot of people, especially conservative evangelicals, of which Arkansas has very many. 

[Tabbygirl521]

1 hour ago, mittsigirl said:

I love his voice! Even after I watch an episode with him narrating, I save it because his voice is so comforting that it puts me to sleep, like a warm, weighted blanket!

Dateline is doing podcasts now, too…

[Tabbygirl521]

48 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

I wonder if Michelle is on overload with Josh and that's why we didn't see her at the courthouse?

Everybody, fundy  or not, has a breaking point.  Maybe the pictures and things happening to babies and small children  shown to the jury was hers!

Maybe Jinger is close to her mother because she was the one really sorry about what happened to her girls.

I do believe there are many secrets in the Duggers household.

I’ve also been wondering if Michelle actually understood all along how awful Josh’s actions were. But because of their disgusting Gothardian beliefs, she felt she could never confront or contradict what JB wanted in dealing with the aftermath. All she’s allowed to do in that situation is pray for God to change hubby’s heart. I am imagining her screaming I KNEW IT!  To me, this is the only scenario that explains her not showing up at all during the trial. What mother wouldn’t? JB may have recognized that she could not or would not have been able to maintain in the courtroom setting. 

[libgirl2]

22 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

No I do not think this. I think Josh is a predator and an evil person. 

When you think of the Flowers in the Attic story( and the Dollanganger series)- Chris and Carrie lost their dad, were physiologically abused by their mother, starved by their grandmother and forced to be surrogate caregivers to their younger twin siblings. After what they had been through- them developing sexual/romantic feelings for each other didn't surprise me. They were too damaged to trust anyone else really and ended up pretending to be a married couple when the risk of conceiving a child was gone.

Josh did not engage in consensual sexual exploration with a peer, where it wasn't proper boundaries (because they were related, either legally or biologically) but not predatory. Josh preyed on his little sisters who trusted him- repeatedly. 

Very different scenarios in my mind. (In the Specials Forum we have an entire discussion on the Carrie/Chris relationship in Dollanganger series). 

I am trying to find that forum. Do you have the link? Yes, I grew up reading the entire series! 

[Cinnabon]

12 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

I’ve also been wondering if Michelle actually understood all along how awful Josh’s actions were. But because of their disgusting Gothardian beliefs, she felt she could never confront or contradict what JB wanted in dealing with the aftermath. All she’s allowed to do in that situation is pray for God to change hubby’s heart. I am imagining her screaming I KNEW IT!  To me, this is the only scenario that explains her not showing up at all during the trial. What mother wouldn’t? JB may have recognized that she could not or would not have been able to maintain in the courtroom setting. 

Wasn’t Michelle always Josh’s supporter, more than JB? I don’t buy that she ever wanted to do anything differently than they did. And I think she was a coward for staying home and not going to court and hearing about exactly what he was watching. And beyond that, to simply show support for her son. 

10 minutes ago, mynextmistake said:

Frankly, given Josh’s conviction and Jana’s child endangerment case, it wouldn’t surprise me if Arkansas CPS is already getting some side eye about the deference with which they have treated this family. The family has been allowed to dictate the terms of their engagement with the system, and I think that at least i

This. They appear to have been able to dictate their own terms and refuse to even meet with CPS. Most parents don’t get that choice. It’s disgusting and unfair.

[Cinnabon]

9 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I am trying to find that forum. Do you have the link? Yes, I grew up reading the entire series! 

Here it is: https://forums.primetimer.com/forum/937-specials-tv-movies-other-one-offs/

I also read all the books during middle school!

[madpsych78]

Michelle's feelings about all this are a big mystery, although I do think it's plausible her feelings are different from Boob's feelings.

[Scarlett45]

20 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

I’ve also been wondering if Michelle actually understood all along how awful Josh’s actions were. But because of their disgusting Gothardian beliefs, she felt she could never confront or contradict what JB wanted in dealing with the aftermath. All she’s allowed to do in that situation is pray for God to change hubby’s heart. I am imagining her screaming I KNEW IT!  To me, this is the only scenario that explains her not showing up at all during the trial. What mother wouldn’t? JB may have recognized that she could not or would not have been able to maintain in the courtroom setting. 

I could be wrong, but I think it’s more that Michelle actually has maternal affection for Josh, while also believing he is guilty and would fall apart in the courtroom because her entire world view has been shattered and she is embarrassed. 

[ginger90]

10 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

This. They appear to have been able to dictate their own terms and refuse to even meet with CPS. Most parents don’t get that choice. It’s disgusting and unfair.

If there is no court order, and a child or children aren’t considered in immediate danger at that moment, they aren’t getting anything that isn’t following law.

If CPS didn’t come back with a court order in the past, one would hope it was because it wasn’t deemed necessary.

On the other hand, perhaps they did get an order, and we don’t now about it yet, as with many other things.

[Heathen]

12 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I could be wrong, but I think it’s more that Michelle actually has maternal affection for Josh, while also believing he is guilty and would fall apart in the courtroom because her entire world view has been shattered and she is embarrassed. 

I agree except that I don't think Mullet thought Josh was guilty. Denial is a powerful force. I'm sure she and Jim Bob are coming to that realization now, or did right after the verdict, but not before. Embarrassed and humiliated, absolutely. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Heathen

[Jynnan tonnix]

3 hours ago, Zella said:

One of the reasons I think the "Anna is being investigated for child abandonment" narrative is false (beyond what being described not sounding like child abandonment in the legal sense) is that I really cannot figure out how her spending the night with the kids is a technical violation of the terms of his bond. Would it be in poor judgment? Yes. But the terms of the bond were unlimited time with his own kids, as long as Anna was present. I don't see how them all spending the night would constitute a violation of those terms. 

I would think a case could be made that Anna being "present" would mean that she was able to actively supervise what was going on. If she was spending the night, and presumably sleeping, that's not exactly being present.

If Jana falling asleep while babysitting can be viewed as child endangerment, I'd imagine  the same could hold true for Anna.

[emmawoodhouse]

4 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Same. CPS involvement rarely means the kids will be taken away. They  offer supportive services.

Don't forget that Smuggar's conviction triggers an automatic CPS check on his kids. Anna can't turn them away this time.