Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Twopper]

who is this Laura person?  Haven't seen the show in ages.

[MargeGunderson]

For a “computer expert” he was dumb to leave his router unprotected.  Once again, Josh isn’t nearly as smart as he thinks he is.

[Zella]

4 hours ago, absnow54 said:

Derrick can help all the Duggar kids sue Jim Bob for their shares of the TLC pie. They’ve been exploited their entire lives, and are trapped under JBs thumb in order to access the money they helped him make. 

Dude needs to actually pass the bar first. They do need to talk to a lawyer, especially if Jim Bob is using Josh as leverage against the other kids. (It wouldn't surprise me.) But, personally, if I were the other Duggar kids, Derick is the last lawyer I'd ask, even if he does finally pass the bar. He is completely inexperienced, and I don't think asking an attorney who is personally involved in your case is the road to sound legal advice. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Zella

[Churchhoney]

So much of the attitudes all the Duggars harbor about these events trace right back to the mythology with which everybody's been ceaselessly indoctrinated over the years (while being deprived of any outside influences that might encourage thought). 

Even though the IBLP/ATI remnant ostentatiously threw Gothard himself overboard, his "ideas" are what entranced them and held them together for decades. And they're still apparently determined to be a group and charge forward in an attempt to regain their influence. (JB and M wouldn't spend $2.5 million on a building in Branson if they and their longtime buddies didn't have high hopes to reanimate their poisonous crap.) 

A whole lot of the specific attitudes that have worsened this situation and will continue to make it tough for them to actually grapple with it come straight out of the IBLP/ATI language, which the IBLP/ATI core still embrace.....Like these, from an article whose description of the Duggs/Gothardite rise to media prominence over I quoted at some length over on the "media and TLC" thread (that's what I do 😁 ) --

IMAGINE IF YOU'D HAD THIS LINE HAMMERED INTO YOU AT THE SOTDRT, WHEN YOU'D BEEN MOLESTED/ASSAULTED AND HADN'T CRIED OUT -- Gothard’s philosophy on sexual assault is detailed explicitly in his publications, including in the Wisdom Booklets. When a woman is attacked, one booklet reads, “She is to cry out for help. The victim who fails to do this is equally guilty with the attacker.” [OF COURSE, IF YOU DO CRY OUT YOUR WHOLE FAMILY WILL ETERNALLY BRAND YOU A FAMILY-DESTROYING SNITCH...SO....TOUGH CHOICE HERE]

WHAT ANNA WOULD REALLY BE DOING IF SHE CONTEMPLATED DIVORCE -- Gothard has written extensively about the grounds for divorce, which in his view is almost always impermissible. As IBLP lays out in detail in Wisdom Booklet No. 26, “To allow for divorce and/or remarriage in the case of marital unfaithfulness” is the same as destroying Christ’s relationship with the Church, and the believer’s relationship with the law.

WHY TURNING A BLIND EYE TO DICEY MALE BEHAVIOR IS SOP -- While working closely with Gothard there for the next three years, Leigh said he subjected her to “holding hands, playing footsies, stroking the hair and that type of unwanted physical affection.” At the time, she was in her early twenties and he was in his seventies. She said she traveled frequently with Gothard, including on a visit to the Duggar home in 2006, where he held her hand in the presence of Jim Bob and his daughter Jill.

WHY BLAME OF WOMEN AND FAILURE TO REPORT ARE SOP -- Leigh had been raped as a child, and Gothard “counseled” her personally about it.  “He told me the sin—the pain I felt in my heart over the years—was because of my sin in it,” she said. “So he had me confess my sin for being raped as a child.” ..“I would help him counsel girls who had been sexually abused by family members,” she said. “That was not an uncommon thing. He would counsel them with that [same] material, he would immediately send them home and never report the offenders [to authorities].” Mark said he knew others who had received that same “counseling,” including a girl who had been raped by her uncle when she was five..

THE "CURIOSITY" LINE CAME STRAIGHT FROM GOTHARD -- Robert Norvell, who ran an IBLP training center in Eagle Mountain, Arkansas, for 12 years, said the Duggars had contacted him in 2003 about sending Josh to his facility. Jim Bob “just told me that Josh was having some struggles and just wondered if I could take him for a while,” but he turned them down because his facility was full. Norvell said he did not know about the sexual abuse until the May 2015 In Touch report. But he dismissed the abuse as insignificant, pointing to Gothard’s teachings. “What you’re hearing about Josh is a stupid thing that a little boy did,” Norvell said. “In the seminar, Bill [Gothard] calls it a natural curiosity. Had it been as traumatic as they make it out to be, the sisters would have been bitter, and the sisters are not bitter. I know the whole family.”

A POSSIBLE FACTUAL BASIS FOR THE PICKLES ST. PAUL STORY? OR A SOURCE FOR ITS HOAXER/FABRICATOR?   In her family, Gothard “was revered as this person who could not mess up, almost like a saint or a god,” said Joy Stillwell Simmons, now 39, who was part of ATI from the time she was eight until she was 29. “My mom would refer to him as a modern day Apostle Paul.”

More here, if you're interested.-https://talkingpointsmemo.com/theslice/josh-duggar-bill-gothard-institute-in-basic-life-principles

Edited December 10, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Zella]

6 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Dipping toe in water, realizing its cold - jumping in anyways.

I know many see Derick as this hero that stood up to JB, but I haven't got there yet, and maybe I never will. I can't unsee things like him returning from "serving God and others" as a missionary in CA and in almost the same breathe, laughing as he and is baby son "built a wall" together. I can't unread all the self-serving lies and twisted posts about the break-up with TLC/JB. I can't forget he condemned the BSA for accepting the LGBTQ+ community. And I can't forget the ongoing hate posts about then teenage Jazz, and Nate and Jerimiah. Maybe all the Duggars have the same views as Derick, but I don't see his posts as brave and standing up for what he believes in, I see them as hate filled and disrespectful. And while I think it was brave to go after JB for money, I don't see that as standing up to JB in the heroic sense, I see it as a dispute over money and nothing else.

I do give Jill tons of kudos for their statement and think its very brave for her. But with Derick in the picture, I can't help but wonder if the part about lies was self-serving for him, in addition to being true. I also don't see Derick as this rock of support for Jill, any more so than can be imagined about the other husbands.

I'm a big believer in removing toxic folks from one's life, including family. But I haven't seen anyone do that yet. I think Josh's conviction is a great opportunity for all of the adult kids to see a broader and clearer picture of what's been going on all these years, and if any of them do, I will see that as taking a pretty heroic step.

Agreed. I will never find Derick credible because of the ways he has contradicted himself over the years and tried to rewrite the narrative to make himself look less responsible for some of what went down. 

I was pleasantly surprised that he didn't use Josh's trial as an opportunity to be his usual messy self on social media. I was expecting Amy-like tweets for him, especially after it was reported that he showed up in court. I have no clue if it's law school or just the "funeral" tone of the trial that stopped him, but I am glad that, for whatever reason, he realized it was an inappropriate time for him to revisit all of his personal grievances. But I still don't see him as a great or effective crusader against Jim Bob, and any time he pops up with some woe-is-me narrative, I still want receipts because I cannot take anything Derick says on its own as reliable without some proof. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Zella

[Readalot]

I will give Derrick props for making the changes he has and supporting Jill. Actions matter. Time will tell if he continues to drop his unsavory traits. 

[Vikitty]

On 5/19/2015 at 2:38 PM, Fuzzysox said:

What the what is this article?? True or not????? 

 

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2015/05/josh-duggar-accused-underage-sex-abuse-report/

Throwback to the moment this all started 6 years ago. I remember the exact moment the thread blew up. 
 

It shouldn’t have taken six years to lock this sick fuck up. Lady Justice has more patience than me. 

[YupItsMe]

2 hours ago, Kbo said:

Here’s an interesting article with different details from inside the courtroom:

https://people.com/tv/what-it-was-like-in-court-when-josh-duggar-verdict-was-read/?utm_source=emailshare&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email-share-article&utm_content=20211210

They were smart to not even try naming anyone but Anna & Jim Bob, that way they didn’t mis-identify anyone.

[Tikichick]

24 minutes ago, Readalot said:

I will give Derrick props for making the changes he has and supporting Jill. Actions matter. Time will tell if he continues to drop his unsavory traits. 

I look at it in the light of even a broken clock can be right twice a day.   He's espoused some horrible ideas, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that he has been a great support to Jill and had very good reason to take a stand against JB.

[StaceyNotStacie]

Just curious, but did this get any news coverage on late night cable or the morning shows?  I haven’t watched much news lately and with the other trials and verdicts going on yesterday, I was wondering if this one was overshadowed. 
 

I did catch The View and they mentioned it briefly, but the majority of the conversation was about the Smollett verdict. 

[crazycatlady58]

5 minutes ago, Stacey1014 said:

Just curious, but did this get any news coverage on late night cable or the morning shows?  I haven’t watched much news lately and with the other trials and verdicts going on yesterday, I was wondering if this one was overshadowed. 
 

I did catch The View and they mentioned it briefly, but the majority of the conversation was about the Smollett verdict. 

I don't watch the news but get an email from 1440 which give the highlights  ( without opinions)  of tge news and it was mentioned there.

[Westiepeach]

7 minutes ago, Stacey1014 said:

Just curious, but did this get any news coverage on late night cable or the morning shows?  I haven’t watched much news lately and with the other trials and verdicts going on yesterday, I was wondering if this one was overshadowed. 
 

I did catch The View and they mentioned it briefly, but the majority of the conversation was about the Smollett verdict. 

They mentioned it briefly on our local Cleveland news stations, both last evening and this morning. There was also a small blurb in The News Herald newspaper, but I saw nothing in Cleveland's major newspaper, The Plain Dealer.

[zoomama]

it was mentioned on a local los angeles channel.

 

[Lady Whistleup]

My view is that it's not about Derick at all. Nor is it about Austin. Jill and Joy looked incredibly sad at the trial and whatever they need to heal, they should get. The "Dillard family" statement is good in that whoever wrote it seems to realize that it's not about Derick, it's about Jill.

Now that the trial is over, I'm still haunted by the testimony that Josh's sisters woke up to him violating them and they punched him in self-defense. Awful beyond words.

[madpsych78]

I think another one who could potentially be on the outs with Boob may be Jason. According to WOACB and a source (take it with a grain of salt), Boob is evidently blaming Jill for all that has happened to Josh. However, most of the Duggar sons - with the exception of Jed! - think this is BS, and in addition, evidently Jason has voiced his disagreement to Boob. Only Jedidiah seems to be all truly Team Boob. 

[SusanM]

14 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

, Boob is evidently blaming Jill for all that has happened to Josh.

Even he can't really believe that Jill had anything to do with Smuggar's most recent crime.  Or am I giving him more credit for brains than he deserves?

[AgathaC]

1 minute ago, SusannahM said:

Even he can't really believe that Jill had anything to do with Smuggar's most recent crime.  Or am I giving him more credit for brains than he deserves?

Just guessing here, but with some twisted logic, one could say: “Jill ‘snitched’ about the molestations. Without that, those actions may not have been known. They were used in trial and helped convict. Therefore, she’s to blame.”

Not saying that’s logical, but what place does logic have here, really. If it’s even truly JB’s attitude.

[Zella]

I think, if it is true, it's more likely a "we are being visited by divine punishment for your sins" angle. 

[salvame]

https://www.duggarfamily.com/2021/12/statement-from-jim-bob-and-michelle/

Holy $hit - can you believe the audacity of this family? "Pray for those who have been harmed by csam"?? What about their own daughters, and the exploited children whom Joshie further exploited. 

I'm so angry I can barely see straight!

[Jeanne222]

Keeping in mind there are no dumb questions....Back in about 2019 I remember a lot of back and forth about something going on at the Duggers big house.  Strange cars and lots of rumors.

Is that when this all started?  TIA

[crazy8s]

 

13 minutes ago, AgathaC said:

Just guessing here, but with some twisted logic, one could say: “Jill ‘snitched’ about the molestations. Without that, those actions may not have been known. They were used in trial and helped convict. Therefore, she’s to blame.”

But Jill snitching is not the way JB has tried to spin the story - Joshua came and confessed on his own each time, I believe is the lie good ole Pops repeats.

[SusanM]

2 minutes ago, crazy8s said:

But Jill snitching is not the way JB has tried to spin the story - Joshua came and confessed on his own each time, I believe is the lie good ole Pops repeats.

According to JB what happened back then was so insignificant he can't really remember it anymore anyway.

[GeeGolly]

No one really knows if Jill told on Josh. We just know a sister told on him once. But because Jill was known as the family tattletale, its assumed she was the one that told. We also know Josh snitched on himself as well.

I really don't believe that JB is doing a Jill is the sin in the camp thing. Jill has never said anything about the molestations after the Kelly special nor has she said anything negative about Josh. If JB was to blame anyone, certainly he would blame Amy and Deanna.

Miss Balls needs to shut that hole in her face.

[SpottedCoachDog]

We’ve got cuffs!!!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10296609/Josh-Duggar-sought-Daisys-Destruction-worst-hurtcore-porn.html

[Dianaofthehunt]

What of Jackson? He’s the duggar boy who never seems to be mentioned. Is he married, or still living at home; what? Anyone know?

[GeeGolly]

2 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

What of Jackson? He’s the duggar boy who never seems to be mentioned. Is he married, or still living at home; what? Anyone know?

I'm fairly certain Jackson is only 17 and living at home.

[BW Manilowe]

19 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Which religions are you thinking of?

I guess, like, your more conservative ones, like Roman Catholic—there was a big legal thing here, a few years ago, where a local/area Catholic school fired a teacher for using IVF to at least try to get pregnant (I can’t remember if she did or not); she sued the Diocese over it. I think she won but I can’t remember that for sure either.

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Ben Seewald has spoken out one day after brother-in-law Josh Duggar was convicted of receiving and possessing child sexual abuse material. 

On Friday, Ben, 26, shared a statement to his social media pages on behalf of him and wife Jessa (Duggar) Seewald, Josh's younger sister. 

"From the moment we learned of this case against Josh we have prayed that God would cause the truth to be made known, no matter what it was, and that the facts would be followed wherever they led," he wrote. 

"We are grieved beyond words over the children exploited and abused in child sexual abuse material, and we are thankful for our justice system in its punishment of such evils," Ben continued. "Our hearts break for Josh's family and we ask your continued prayers for them in the unfathomable grief and pain they are enduring." 

[Cinnabon]

10 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Dipping toe in water, realizing its cold - jumping in anyways.

I know many see Derick as this hero that stood up to JB, but I haven't got there yet, and maybe I never will. I can't unsee things like him returning from "serving God and others" as a missionary in CA and in almost the same breathe, laughing as he and is baby son "built a wall" together. I can't unread all the self-serving lies and twisted posts about the break-up with TLC/JB. I can't forget he condemned the BSA for accepting the LGBTQ+ community. And I can't forget the ongoing hate posts about then teenage Jazz, and Nate and Jerimiah. Maybe all the Duggars have the same views as Derick, but I don't see his posts as brave and standing up for what he believes in, I see them as hate filled and disrespectful. And while I think it was brave to go after JB for money, I don't see that as standing up to JB in the heroic sense, I see it as a dispute over money and nothing else.

I do give Jill tons of kudos for their statement and think its very brave for her. But with Derick in the picture, I can't help but wonder if the part about lies was self-serving for him, in addition to being true. I also don't see Derick as this rock of support for Jill, any more so than can be imagined about the other husbands.

I'm a big believer in removing toxic folks from one's life, including family. But I haven't seen anyone do that yet. I think Josh's conviction is a great opportunity for all of the adult kids to see a broader and clearer picture of what's been going on all these years, and if any of them do, I will see that as taking a pretty heroic step.

At the very least, this turn of events should have all of the older kids scrambling to go to college or trade school to learn some actual skills so they can get jobs that aren’t working for JB. It may seem overwhelming but they are all still young. 

[lascuba]

37 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

No one really knows if Jill told on Josh. We just know a sister told on him once. But because Jill was known as the family tattletale, its assumed she was the one that told. We also know Josh snitched on himself as well.

I really don't believe that JB is doing a Jill is the sin in the camp thing. Jill has never said anything about the molestations after the Kelly special nor has she said anything negative about Josh. If JB was to blame anyone, certainly he would blame Amy and Deanna.

Miss Balls needs to shut that hole in her face.

Balls has a real soft spot for the Dillards considering she interviewed Derick back when he was still openly bigoted and just an all around asshole. Every take she has is full of "JB hates those poor sweet souls and will do anything to destroy them" energy. I hate JB as much as the next person but I don't think he's the Big Evil and everyone else is a perfect gem of a person.

[Cinnabon]

7 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I agree, it's a great opportunity for that, but I would be surprised if that happens to any of them - certainly in the short term. As you said, that would be a heroic stop. (The only known exception is Jill. It's hard to read Jinger who's geographically removed from the TTH and def has Jeremy as a headship. Joy's another hard read. Austin was clearly angry/upset at the trial, and Joy was there for a day or two of it, looking troubled in photos outside the building. And she's posted about Job and troubles on SM.)

But as to the rest of the Duggs, I think for now they are all just doubling down on the "this is Satan testing our faith" and "we're being persecuted for being such correct Christians" line of thought. If one can believe stuff posted by the infamous Pickles on FB, JB is taking a hard line with his kids, demanding they all support Josh or they'll be cut off without a cent. And JB is pushing the narrative, also inside his family, that Josh is going to be like the apostle Paul while in prison. Of course, Paul wasn't imprisoned for CSAM, but for preaching the gospel. (This stuff from Pickles was discussed upthread; I don't know how reliable it is but I do believe that JB is exercising all his power over his family to keep them marching in lockstep in support of Josh right now.) 

The only thing Josh has in common with Paul is that they are both misogynistic dicks . But I also read this about JB and it’s not a stretch to believe. Anna may be telling her kids the same thing.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Cinnabon

[Cinnabon]

5 hours ago, mom2two said:

Its interesting that we have not heard much from oldest dugger married sons.   JD, Josiah , and Joseph have been awfully quiet.  And lets go back to Lauren scrubbing their instagram. JD seemed to despise his older brother.  How much does he rely on JB for $?    Jed! is definately onboard with JB, but being careful  and Jer is trying to keep his future bride.    

JD’s little daughter was in the parade with JB and Michelle a couple days before the trial started. He is not distanced from them. 😥

[beckie]

Ben is part of Josh's family, technically. So does his heart also break for his wife?

 

I hope that the sisters are allowed to feel whatever emotions the trial brought up about their abuse at the hands of their brother. And, now that they know the truth, I hope their also allowed to heal the way they want and not be made to feel bad or told to squelch the feelings.

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, ALittleShelfish said:

Prior to yesterday, he may have already thought he had the equivalent of a computer science/IT degree.  Smuggar, indeed. 

Could a prison say "hold on there, Sparky, you don't need to be privy to any further workings of a computer...."?  I guess they can't deny that, but I'm not sure I'd want him having more information about how computers work.  Though he might wind up more qualified than his own computer forensics "expert".  

Also, thank you all for your posts - I haven't watched this show since probably the first season, and this is a very smart and respectful group.  🙌

I seem to remember that Josh has also claimed to  have been a “consultant “ and a graphic designer on other occasions. Par for the course for this family.

4 hours ago, crazy8s said:

But Hilaria has her story to tell for years to come at big sandy and to others in the cult. "I was the only one comforting Anna when the verdict was read. I was the one that walked out of the courthouse and into the "mob" of reporters with her and helped her make it safely to the security team SUV Jim Bob had waiting.." etc

And sadly, she would be correct since not one of Anna’s huge immediate family was there for her. But what was Hillaria’s motivation for attending the trial to begin with? Just to support Anna?

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, Zella said:

Dude needs to actually pass the bar first. They do need to talk to a lawyer, especially if Jim Bob is using Josh as leverage against the other kids. (It wouldn't surprise me.) But, personally, if I were the other Duggar kids, Derick is the last lawyer I'd ask, even if he does finally pass the bar. He is completely inexperienced, and I don't think asking an attorney who is personally involved in your case is the road to sound legal advice. 

He could direct them to the lawyer who helped Jill get her money.

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Even though the IBLP/ATI remnant ostentatiously threw Gothard himself overboard, his "ideas" are what entranced them and held them together for decades. And they're still apparently determined to be a group and charge forward in an attempt to regain their influence. (JB and M wouldn't spend $2.5 million on a building in Branson if they and their longtime buddies didn't have high hopes to reanimate their poisonous crap.)

Exactly like Scientology. After Hubbard’s death, the cult is determined to continue on. 

3 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I look at it in the light of even a broken clock can be right twice a day.   He's espoused some horrible ideas, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that he has been a great support to Jill and had very good reason to take a stand against JB.

I agree. Most of us have great qualities, but are also extremely flawed in other ways. Or at least I know I am.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, SusannahM said:

According to JB what happened back then was so insignificant he can't really remember it anymore anyway.

He couldn’t remember it, yet Mrs Holt remembered it all in great detail. I think she cared about Josh as a person more than JB ever did. Her SM comments have been gold. I truly hope JB has seen them.

[merylinkid]

4 hours ago, Zella said:

Dude needs to actually pass the bar first. They do need to talk to a lawyer, especially if Jim Bob is using Josh as leverage against the other kids. (It wouldn't surprise me.) But, personally, if I were the other Duggar kids, Derick is the last lawyer I'd ask, even if he does finally pass the bar. He is completely inexperienced, and I don't think asking an attorney who is personally involved in your case is the road to sound legal advice. 

Derrick should not actually represent family members even if he does pass the bar.   But he can certainly be a resource for them of who to talk to.   Lawyers refer people to other lawyers all the time.   They help each other out.   When my sister passed suddenly last summer, I contacted an estate attorney I knew to help my niece and nephew  because 1) not my area of law 2) not licensed in that jurisdiction anyway and 3) most importantly I needed to be an aunt right then NOT a lawyer.   Since it was a favor for a friend, he didn't even charge us.    So Derrick could certainly send any Js who want to escape and/or get their fair share of all the TlC money that was made by exploiting them over the years he can send them to someone who can help.   

Derrick can get credit for being supportive of Jill and standing up to JB -- even if it was for selfish reasons and still be a trash human.   No one has to grow in ways we prefer.   But at least he IS growing and NOT just buying the cult BS.  

[Quilt Fairy]

16 hours ago, Zella said:

I personally hope we never see another TV show from anyone else in this family again. 

Except on Dateline. 

[RedDelicious]

Is anyone else completely exhausted?

[JustRosie]

8 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Except on Dateline. 

Yep, I’ve been wondering if this will appear as an episode of Dateline or 20/20. 

[MargeGunderson]

Just now, Namaste said:

Yep, I’ve been wondering if this will appear as an episode of Dateline or 20/20. 

Oh, I would love to see Keith Morrison do an episode on this. And then True Crime Obsessed can cover the Keith Morrison episode. 

[BitterApple]

4 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

Oh, I would love to see Keith Morrison do an episode on this. And then True Crime Obsessed can cover the Keith Morrison episode. 

Me too. I'm in love with Keith Morrison. I want him to narrate my obituary.

[Minivanessa]

2 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

Is anyone else completely exhausted?

Yes. Like, if I sat down on the sofa I would for sure fall asleep and I have an afternoon full of work to do. 

 

[Quilt Fairy]

Another poster (either here or on Reddit) said that after the trial was over they were going to be done with the Duggars.  I feel that way, too.  What will ever be cute or snark-worthy about this family ever again? 

[libgirl2]

11 minutes ago, Namaste said:

Yep, I’ve been wondering if this will appear as an episode of Dateline or 20/20. 

That is the only time I want to see anyone with the last name Duggar on my TV. 

[DXD526]

Is this thread going to be renamed again? Smuggs' current 'event' is somewhat more than 'unfortunate'. 

Don't even know where to begin with the renaming. The possibilities are endless!

[galaxygirl76]

11 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

Oh, I would love to see Keith Morrison do an episode on this. And then True Crime Obsessed can cover the Keith Morrison episode. 

OMG YES!!! I need Patrick and Gillian to cover this.

[salvame]

1 hour ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

Ben Seewald has spoken out one day after brother-in-law Josh Duggar was convicted of receiving and possessing child sexual abuse material. 

On Friday, Ben, 26, shared a statement to his social media pages on behalf of him and wife Jessa (Duggar) Seewald, Josh's younger sister. 

"From the moment we learned of this case against Josh we have prayed that God would cause the truth to be made known, no matter what it was, and that the facts would be followed wherever they led," he wrote. 

"We are grieved beyond words over the children exploited and abused in child sexual abuse material, and we are thankful for our justice system in its punishment of such evils," Ben continued. "Our hearts break for Josh's family and we ask your continued prayers for them in the unfathomable grief and pain they are enduring." 

See Jim Bob - that's how it's done, you stupid douchbag.

[cmr2014]

4 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

So much of the attitudes all the Duggars harbor about these events trace right back to the mythology with which everybody's been ceaselessly indoctrinated over the years (while being deprived of any outside influences that might encourage thought). 

Even though the IBLP/ATI remnant ostentatiously threw Gothard himself overboard, his "ideas" are what entranced them and held them together for decades. And they're still apparently determined to be a group and charge forward in an attempt to regain their influence. (JB and M wouldn't spend $2.5 million on a building in Branson if they and their longtime buddies didn't have high hopes to reanimate their poisonous crap.) 

A whole lot of the specific attitudes that have worsened this situation and will continue to make it tough for them to actually grapple with it come straight out of the IBLP/ATI language, which the IBLP/ATI core still embrace.....Like these, from an article whose description of the Duggs/Gothardite rise to media prominence over I quoted at some length over on the "media and TLC" thread (that's what I do 😁 ) --

IMAGINE IF YOU'D HAD THIS LINE HAMMERED INTO YOU AT THE SOTDRT, WHEN YOU'D BEEN MOLESTED/ASSAULTED AND HADN'T CRIED OUT -- Gothard’s philosophy on sexual assault is detailed explicitly in his publications, including in the Wisdom Booklets. When a woman is attacked, one booklet reads, “She is to cry out for help. The victim who fails to do this is equally guilty with the attacker.” [OF COURSE, IF YOU DO CRY OUT YOUR WHOLE FAMILY WILL ETERNALLY BRAND YOU A FAMILY-DESTROYING SNITCH...SO....TOUGH CHOICE HERE]

WHAT ANNA WOULD REALLY BE DOING IF SHE CONTEMPLATED DIVORCE -- Gothard has written extensively about the grounds for divorce, which in his view is almost always impermissible. As IBLP lays out in detail in Wisdom Booklet No. 26, “To allow for divorce and/or remarriage in the case of marital unfaithfulness” is the same as destroying Christ’s relationship with the Church, and the believer’s relationship with the law.

WHY TURNING A BLIND EYE TO DICEY MALE BEHAVIOR IS SOP -- While working closely with Gothard there for the next three years, Leigh said he subjected her to “holding hands, playing footsies, stroking the hair and that type of unwanted physical affection.” At the time, she was in her early twenties and he was in his seventies. She said she traveled frequently with Gothard, including on a visit to the Duggar home in 2006, where he held her hand in the presence of Jim Bob and his daughter Jill.

WHY BLAME OF WOMEN AND FAILURE TO REPORT ARE SOP -- Leigh had been raped as a child, and Gothard “counseled” her personally about it.  “He told me the sin—the pain I felt in my heart over the years—was because of my sin in it,” she said. “So he had me confess my sin for being raped as a child.” ..“I would help him counsel girls who had been sexually abused by family members,” she said. “That was not an uncommon thing. He would counsel them with that [same] material, he would immediately send them home and never report the offenders [to authorities].” Mark said he knew others who had received that same “counseling,” including a girl who had been raped by her uncle when she was five..

THE "CURIOSITY" LINE CAME STRAIGHT FROM GOTHARD -- Robert Norvell, who ran an IBLP training center in Eagle Mountain, Arkansas, for 12 years, said the Duggars had contacted him in 2003 about sending Josh to his facility. Jim Bob “just told me that Josh was having some struggles and just wondered if I could take him for a while,” but he turned them down because his facility was full. Norvell said he did not know about the sexual abuse until the May 2015 In Touch report. But he dismissed the abuse as insignificant, pointing to Gothard’s teachings. “What you’re hearing about Josh is a stupid thing that a little boy did,” Norvell said. “In the seminar, Bill [Gothard] calls it a natural curiosity. Had it been as traumatic as they make it out to be, the sisters would have been bitter, and the sisters are not bitter. I know the whole family.”

A POSSIBLE FACTUAL BASIS FOR THE PICKLES ST. PAUL STORY? OR A SOURCE FOR ITS HOAXER/FABRICATOR?   In her family, Gothard “was revered as this person who could not mess up, almost like a saint or a god,” said Joy Stillwell Simmons, now 39, who was part of ATI from the time she was eight until she was 29. “My mom would refer to him as a modern day Apostle Paul.”

More here, if you're interested.-https://talkingpointsmemo.com/theslice/josh-duggar-bill-gothard-institute-in-basic-life-principles

Thanks @Churchhoney. I found this really interesting.

All of the Duggars have shown a remarkable lack of empathy over the years (Josh, obviously, to a more horrifying degree than the others), and I think part of that may be inborn, but part of it is Gothardism.

J'chelle has offered her parenting "advice" all over television and print media for years and it begins and ends with "obedience." She eventually had to shut up about blanket training, but potty training was still about "obedience" to mother and to God. 

Over time, her complete lack of connection with her children (despite them all being able to schedule 30 minutes a month with mom and dad) led to that laughable episode where J'chelle was shown bonding with her children. When that went over like a lead balloon, we got to hear from the adult daughters how she was their "best friend" over and over again, and we now get the annual over-the-top Mother's Day tributes.

Children learn about empathy from experiencing it with their parents, and seeing it modeled at home. None of the Duggars ever learned that at home (J'chelle was their "trainer" and JB was their "umbrella" -- neither was really a parent). There are snippets from the show where J'chelle wanders off when a child is injured in an orchestra pit, or laughs at a child stuck in a stair rail. There are similar snippets of JB laughing at and mocking his children. They were never allowed outside of the home to learn from other adults either.

To me, the clearest sign that their statements were written by someone else, is that they display some small level of empathy for the victims of CSA. They don't believe that. It's very clear in Gothard's teachings that men are victims of temptation, and children must have done something wrong in order for abuse to occur.

Others have mentioned Anna's lack of empathy for the victims of CSA, and I think it's true. I think that the only victims she sees here are her headship, herself and her children. She grew up in this cult, too, and as the article states this is all: part of the ATI mentality that “everyone else is wrong and we are elite.” If she has any doubts about Joshua at all, she's surrounded by Duggars, Wallers, and Kellers who are reinforcing the Gothard principles every day.

The only victims that any of them see are the people walking in and out of that courtroom: Josh, Anna, Josh's parents and siblings, and family friends who are all being persecuted for their righteous belief in the correct Jesus. It's Gothard's life's work come to fruition before our eyes.