Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[JustRosie]

18 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I predict on 12/9/21, at 10:01am, the jury will deliver a healthy happy verdict, named, J'guilty.

That post made my entire day! 😂 

[quarks]

36 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

How did a marginal (at best) publication like The Sun get first dibs on this trial?
How come Rachel Maddow and other real news outlets don’t cover it?
My husband opines it’s because legit news sources aren’t interested in what is essentially hillbilly news.

I don't think that the Sun had first dibs, exactly. From what I can tell, though, it doesn't sound as if anyone in the courthouse has assigned any specific order to the reporters who are there, who seem to be a mix of tabloids (The Sun, People) and various local reporters and apparently one person with the Associated Press.

The Sun is posting updates faster than the other sources, but....they seem to have less interest in accuracy, and the other sources are also carefully obeying the "no electronics in the courtroom" stuff which the Sun hasn't always been doing. 

Also, at least some legit news sources are interested in it/covering it (The New York Times, The Hill, CBS News, etc), but it looks like they are just relying on the local reports/the AP instead of sending someone else, presumably to save money.  And in this particular case, to spare them the trouble of trying to figure out which Duggar is which.

[Gemma Violet]

If it's a hung jury, I'm assuming the feds will retry him.  But is that certain?  What are the chances that they don't retry him?

[Nysha]

24 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

It's a lot of material to digest and go over. It's not a bad sign that they didnt reach a decision. Still makes me "unreasonably" nervous.

I agree. It's easier for us because some of us have been obsessing over following the Duggars since that first special. We were there when the molestation was first introduced and we've had years to assimilate that information with the Duggar's self-proclaimed godliness. The biggest shock to many of us was the graphic nature of the images. The jury has those images, a man who looks like them being accused, and a lot of technical jargon to understand and judge. It's not as black and white to them as it is to us.

[JustRosie]

2 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

If it's a hung jury, I'm assuming the feds will retry him.  But is that certain?  What are the chances that they don't retry him?

What does a hung jury actually mean?  Can they retry him for the same crimes? TIA

[iwantcookies]

Until tomorrow everyone 👋

[Cinnabon]

37 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Maybe before they put a husband and dad in prison, they just want to dot their Is and cross their Ts. I'm not worried... too much... yet.

He shouldn’t be given any more consideration than a single , childless person.

[Jeanne222]

3 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

If it's a hung jury, I'm assuming the feds will retry him.  But is that certain?  What are the chances that they don't retry him?

I was listening to an attorney on YouTube.  If it's 11 guilty, 1 not guilty they would be more likely to retry than if it's 11 innocent 1 guilty.

With that said this is the Feds and they don't mess around!

[GeeGolly]

2 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

He shouldn’t be given any more consideration than a single , childless person.

You are absolutely correct!

[Jeanne222]

6 minutes ago, Namaste said:

What does a hung jury actually mean?  Can they retry him for the same crimes? TIA

A jury has to be unanimous.  If one of more are not in agreement it's a hung jury.

Yes they can retry if there's a hung jury.  Up to the Prosecutor to decide.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Jeanne222

[Showthyme]

No one likes waiting but it is good that the jurors are weighing the evidence. As much as we are expecting a guilty verdict, Josh Duggar deserves his day in court. If I were on trial, I would want a thoughtful jury. I think it is good for the victims/family too to see that the jury is carefully considering the charges.
 

 

[CountryGirl]

This redditor said it best:

“I'm a lawyer (though I don't practice in Arkansas where this trial is being held).

The jury is NOT taking a long time. Despite it feeling long to us, it has barely been any time in court time. There is no reason to panic or get anxious. Yes the verdict could go either way, that is always the case. Not only are there court processes to follow but you have to remember that these jurors don't know all about the Duggars like everyone here, that they haven't been able to say a word about the trial before now and that it can be a heavy burden knowing you are sending someone to jail so of course they need to take time.

Sorry if I sound harsh but the misinformation and misunderstanding of legal procedures is really bothering me. If the jury turned around with a verdict immediately it would be very concerning.

I've worked CSAM trials and I know lots of feelings come up around that topic. It is not easy. But everyone needs to calm down. There is no way to know what the jury is thinking. It has not been "too long". Josh Duggar has the right to due process.”

[JustRosie]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

A jury has to be unanimous.  If one of more are not in agreement it's a hung jury.

yes they can retry.  Up to the Prosecutor to decide.

Thank you for responding. So, theoretically, could prosecutors keep retrying a hung jury case until they get a verdict? 

[CountryGirl]

39 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

The lawyer I was listening to said not to worry. This is common to go home and come back with a fresh mind tomorrow. Now if it goes beyond tomoy, I will start to worry. 

If it’s mid-day Friday, then I’ll start worrying. Until then, all the Veruca-Salting in the world about wanting a verdict NOW isn’t going to do any of us any good. And yes, I said that to myself as I was starting to stomp my feet. 

[iwantcookies]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10289027/Jury-begins-deliberating-child-porn-trial-against-Josh-Duggar-faces-40-years.html

[65mickey]

2 minutes ago, Namaste said:

Thank you for responding. So, theoretically, could prosecutors keep retrying a hung jury case until they get a verdict? 

Remember the book and movie Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil about the murder of Danny Handsford by a prominent Savannah Ga antique dealer? Mr. Williams was tried 4 times for murder. First 3 trials ended in a hung jury. He was found not guilty on the 4th trial. And 8 months after being found not guilty he dropped dead in his mansion almost in the same spot that Danny Hansford was shot. Karma?

[quarks]

4 minutes ago, Namaste said:

Thank you for responding. So, theoretically, could prosecutors keep retrying a hung jury case until they get a verdict? 

In theory, yes.

In practice, it depends on whether or not the prosecution thinks it's worthwhile to retry the case.

 

[iwantcookies]

I wonder what Anna cooked Josh for dinner. Did he get ice cream too? Are they even together with the kids. 
 

Anna it might be your last night to get pregnant... 

 

Is JB prepping his hair piece for tomorrow?

 

[Absolom]

21 hours ago, hathorlive said:

I don't know if I'll ever be able to look at a router again without thinking it's defrauding me.

I locked the door on the room where the router resides.  I guess I can never trust it again.  Although that could be a nice feature if they had all the promise, power, and data Ms. Michele thinks they hold.

[monagatuna]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I predict on 12/9/21, at 10:01am, the jury will deliver a healthy happy verdict, named, J'guilty.

I read this like Eleanor Shellstrop saying "YA BASIC!" In my head that's how they deliver the verdict to this creep.

[SJC]

4 minutes ago, Absolom said:

I locked the door on the room where the router resides.  I guess I can never trust it again.

I'm afraid to even touch mine. 😡

[MamaR]

8 minutes ago, Absolom said:

I locked the door on the room where the router resides.  I guess I can never trust it again.  Although that could be a nice feature if they had all the promise, power, and data Ms. Michele thinks they hold.

I have asked mine to move out, too many trust issues now. 

[absnow54]

Jury is probably still deliberating because they haven’t made it through Michelle Bush’s 100 page forensics report yet. 

[hathorlive]

9 minutes ago, SJC said:

I'm afraid to even touch mine. 😡

I stroke mine gently and say "you store all the vital data".  We have to keep the machines running so we can be snarky online!

[ElsieEm]

The jury I was on was for a rape/murder trial. It was a re-trial and very lengthy (we sat for almost 3 months!!). We were sequestered for deliberation and spent 3 nights in a hotel/4 days deliberating. We all took it very seriously, but did have one holdout. I think we could have been done much sooner without her, but it did make us all very very sure we were doing the right thing, which I do appreciate in retrospect, as we found the defendant guilty. 

I wouldn't read too much into how long this jury takes, it's a technical case and I'm sure they want to make sure they understand it all. I'm feeling for them, and of course wishing for the best outcome!!

Edited December 9, 2021 by ElsieEm

[SJC]

8 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

We have to keep the machines running so we can be snarky online!

Snarkiness is my life-blood. lol

[StaceyNotStacie]

1 hour ago, Gemma Violet said:

If it's a hung jury, I'm assuming the feds will retry him.  But is that certain?  What are the chances that they don't retry him?

The bigger question is would JB pay for lawyers for another trial?

[coconspirator]

Given everything that happened today outside of just deliberating--picking a jury foreman/woman, possibly taking a preliminary vote, organizing the evidence and how to attack it, viewing the video, and probably ordering and eating lunch--I didn't expect a verdict today. I won't feel panicky unless they end tomorrow without a decision, and even then I still think it's ultimately a guilty verdict. 

[Sile]

41 minutes ago, 65mickey said:

Remember the book and movie Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil about the murder of Danny Handsford by a prominent Savannah Ga antique dealer? Mr. Williams was tried 4 times for murder. First 3 trials ended in a hung jury. He was found not guilty on the 4th trial. And 8 months after being found not guilty he dropped dead in his mansion almost in the same spot that Danny Hansford was shot. Karma?

That was the first thing I thought of when reading that post, too.

The book was fabulous, as was the documentary Midnight in Savannah.  The movie, not so much.  Although Kevin Spacey looked and sounded so much like the real Jim Williams that it was eerie.  He might be a trash human being, but he is/was a helluva actor.

3 minutes ago, Stacey1014 said:

The bigger question is would JB pay for lawyers for another trial?

That was my query earlier today.  He's enough of a skinflint that, combined with everything that came to light during the trial, he might push for a plea.

No telling how much more the Feds could come up getting a second bite of the apple.

[Heathen]

3 minutes ago, Stacey1014 said:

The bigger question is would JB pay for lawyers for another trial?

If not, Smuggar gets a public defender. "You have the right to an attorney; if you cannot afford one, one will be appointed for you." He'd have had a public defender this time if not for Jim Bob paying for his attorneys. 

[Ohiopirate02]

31 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Jury is probably still deliberating because they haven’t made it through Michelle Bush’s 100 page forensics report yet. 

Shit, I completely forgot about that novella being part of the evidence.  If at least one juror chooses to read that in its entirety, deliberations could last awhile.

[mynextmistake]

57 minutes ago, coconspirator said:

Given everything that happened today outside of just deliberating--picking a jury foreman/woman, possibly taking a preliminary vote, organizing the evidence and how to attack it, viewing the video, and probably ordering and eating lunch--I didn't expect a verdict today. I won't feel panicky unless they end tomorrow without a decision, and even then I still think it's ultimately a guilty verdict. 

Also we have to keep in mind that jurors are regular people and this jury is not fully sequestered. Some of the jurors might have had to pick up their kids or do other ordinary life things. A jury is not always going to be able to stay late to deliberate. 

[iwantcookies]

1 hour ago, hathorlive said:

I stroke mine gently and say "you store all the vital data".  We have to keep the machines running so we can be snarky online!

Mine is called: hello my pretty 🤩😂

[tabloidlover]

Okay y’all, I mentioned the router situation to both my husband and son (adult).  They each looked at me as though I had a second head.  Therefore I explained the case briefly and that this was the defense witness’s argument.  Husband rolled his eyes and son put his head in his palm 😂.   Might have told them that my expectation is that they check with router the next time I run into an issue.   

[Mindthinkr]

Dang. I came late to read this and after many pages I’m disappointed we don’t have a verdict. If it takes until tomorrow to find him guilty I’m ok. It’s going to be worth it. 

[mynextmistake]

The defense strategy in seven words: the router did it, you must acquit.

[Panopticon]

With routers about, there’s reasonable doubt!

[greenturtle36]

As far as the deliberation needing more time, I was on a jury once for a possession of meth charge, and we took over 2 hours to deliberate.  This is a much more serious crime than possession of meth, so it's going to take longer.  It's hard to get 12 people to agree on something in a short period of time.  They go through every "what if" with a fine toothed comb.

[Zella]

4 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Just had confirmation from an attorney who has followed the paper trail on this case that CPS did indeed attempt to interview the kids, but both Smuganna declined. They basically said it was because they didn't trust the agency. 

eta The attorney went on to say that if Smuggar is convicted, Anna has no choice. CPS will interview the kids.

Do you have a link to the attorney discussing this? 

[Tuxcat]

So tomorrow only the jury reports to court correct? We won't see Josh, lawyers, family unless a verdict is reached. Is that right?

[mynextmistake]

3 minutes ago, greenturtle36 said:

As far as the deliberation needing more time, I was on a jury once for a possession of meth charge, and we took over 2 hours to deliberate.  This is a much more serious crime than possession of meth, so it's going to take longer.  It's hard to get 12 people to agree on something in a short period of time.  They go through every "what if" with a fine toothed comb.

Mr. Mistake was once on a jury that deliberated for two days on a misdemeanor shoplifting charge. Apparently 11 of them wanted to convict, and the sole holdout was a lady whose reason for wanting to acquit was that she didn’t trust the police because she lived next door to a police officer once and the runoff from his roof during a hurricane flooded her garage. People are strange.

I don’t think there’s any way that a replay of Josh’s interview helps Josh. I think there are a lot of technical details in this case and it might take the jury a while to sort through the testimony. This is a good thing. We want juries to be thorough.

[Jeanne222]

3 hours ago, Namaste said:

Thank you for responding. So, theoretically, could prosecutors keep retrying a hung jury case until they get a verdict? 

Well...I'm thinking they could but trials are very expensive and consuming to the court system so I'm not sure how far they would or could go.

[Rootbeer]

49 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

So tomorrow only the jury reports to court correct? We won't see Josh, lawyers, family unless a verdict is reached. Is that right?

The jury are the only ones required to be there.  Anyone else is allowed to hang out in the courthouse and wait for the court to announce that a verdict has been reached.  Technically, the prosecution and defense attorneys as well as the defendant need to wait someplace where they can return to the courthouse for the reading of the verdict in a reasonable period of time.  There's a reason why many criminal defense attorneys have offices that are fairly close to the courthouse.  Presumably, the defense including Josh, will wait at Travis Story's office and someone from the court will contact them when the verdict is reached so they can return to court to hear it announced.

[Gemma Violet]

On WOACB's latest video, there is a lawyer who calls in and answers a bunch of questions.  She starts at the 1:03 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbBzSB_rKtY

 

[sue450]

4 hours ago, Namaste said:

What does a hung jury actually mean?  Can they retry him for the same crimes? TIA

all 12 have to agree  if  they have even 1 hold out that will  not change their mind it is called a hung jury and the case is dismissed  because the jury will  never agree  ..

usually  there ends up being a 2nd trial

[hathorlive]

3 hours ago, coconspirator said:

Given everything that happened today outside of just deliberating--picking a jury foreman/woman, possibly taking a preliminary vote, organizing the evidence and how to attack it, viewing the video, and probably ordering and eating lunch--I didn't expect a verdict today. I won't feel panicky unless they end tomorrow without a decision, and even then I still think it's ultimately a guilty verdict. 

Agreed.  It's okay to have questions.  I respect a jury that says "we want to review this".  We have to trust the system. I know there have been major disappointments with OJ and Casey but those were different trials.  The evidence is overwhelming in this case.  JB paid for a defense and he got one.  It will be interesting to see if this case can be appealed, because St. Louis lawyer pulled every freaking rabbit out of the hat he was given.  He did so many motions that I'm surprised he didn't get in trouble with the judge.  

[emmawoodhouse]

The judge did get pretty snarky with Gelfand. His motion denials (for the most part) were enjoyable reads. At least as read by Emily D Baker. 😀

[hathorlive]

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Shit, I completely forgot about that novella being part of the evidence.  If at least one juror chooses to read that in its entirety, deliberations could last awhile.

Novella: Daily affirmations with Router

Page 1: I couldn't focus.  I looked around all the CP files but I didn't see...router.  Oh router, how can I tell what's on the computer, if I can't look at all the data you don't store?

Page 2:  Where did my Linux for Dummies book go?  Oh, I think it's with router.  

Page 49:  What do all these 1's and 0's mean?  

Page 73: I was too afraid to tell mommy I wanted to be a singer on a cruise ship, so here I am, router.  Trapped in Binary hell. 

Page 99: I bet if I just copy and paste stuff from old IBM mainframe manuals into this report, no one will make it this far and they'll think I'm super bright.  Fake it til you make it, router!

Edited December 9, 2021 by hathorlive

[quarks]

7 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Agreed.  It's okay to have questions.  I respect a jury that says "we want to review this".  We have to trust the system. I know there have been major disappointments with OJ and Casey but those were different trials.  The evidence is overwhelming in this case.  JB paid for a defense and he got one.  It will be interesting to see if this case can be appealed, because St. Louis lawyer pulled every freaking rabbit out of the hat he was given.  He did so many motions that I'm surprised he didn't get in trouble with the judge.  

I think he came close a couple of times.  The judge was even less impressed with the Homeland Security motion than most people here were, and he apparently got distinctly annoyed on Monday when the defense started trying to argue about the cell phones again instead of moving ahead to discuss whether or not the prior molestations could be admitted as evidence.

 

[Turquoise]

I'm still giggling over the defense claiming the prosecution was "starstruck" over this smug slimeball...