Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Dr.OO7]

Anna genuinely thinks Josh is innocent. Warning, there are stomach-churning details in the article.

https://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2021/05/josh-duggar-visited-by-anna-kids-while-on-home-confinement/

 

[Cinnabon]

2 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

Anna genuinely thinks Josh is innocent. Warning, there are stomach-churning details in the article.

https://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2021/05/josh-duggar-visited-by-anna-kids-while-on-home-confinement/

 

And the article leaves out the worst of it. It’s all horrifying.

[cmr2014]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I'm a little confused. Are we calling People a tabloid? Because it's not. It's fluffy and superficial and relies on a lot of soundbites spoon-fed from celebrities' publicists, so hard-hitting journalism it is not, but it's really not the same level as The Daily Fail or even The Sun. In fact, I've often found that People usually has fairly reliable true crime reporting when it delves into it. 

Not denying that the recent story they ran is largely repetitive of stuff we already know, and it does have an unattributed source, but I wouldn't necessarily brush off anything reported in People as fake news. 

I once worked for People Magazine (it was a long time ago, but I doubt it has changed all that much). People is a legitimate magazine with reporters and fact-checkers and lawyers on staff.

It is enormously popular and profitable; they don't need to make things up to sell magazines.

[awaken]

8 hours ago, laurakaye said:

I just have to mention that I have been listening to the podcast "I Pray You Put This Journal Away" since reading about it here and I can't believe how riveting it is.  I listen to podcasts while I walk, and at least twice per episode I stop in my tracks, say "WOW" out loud, and rewind a particularly shocking or illuminating section.  I initially thought it was going to be more of a salacious, gossipy podcast but it's not that at all.  I am re-listening to episode three before I move on because the host (Justin) sheds some SERIOUS light on Josh from back in the day.  It makes my jaw drop but it also makes me nod, as in - yup, that all makes sense.

I have also been in the Jeremy thread wondering why Jere is such a poseur and lying to himself about what he believes versus how he wants to portray himself on social media.  This podcast really sheds light on why no one in Fundie circles, particularly the men, want to call out another man on his lies because to expose one man as a liar has the potential to expose many of them as they throw one another under the bus in an effort to save their own hides.  Josh did just that to Justin and Justin's heartbreak is absolutely raw.  I'm sad the podcast only has five episodes but my surface understanding is that telling his story took so much out of him that he could only record so many.

This cult is so, so, SO much more destructive than I really ever understood.

That sounds fascinating- thanks for the recommendation!  

[merylinkid]

16 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

The Duggars and the people they've been close with really do live in their own little world, I think, even now

Which is why they think they are a bigger deal than they really are.   In their EXTREMELY small pond they appear to be REALLY BIG FISH.   but in the real world, they aren't even minnows.   But they have this warped view so they think Josh will be returned to them for 'treatment" solely because of who they are and they believe influential people want to keep them happy.   The real influential people could give a rat's ass about the Duggars and Josh and his bright future especially.

[Tikichick]

51 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Which is why they think they are a bigger deal than they really are.   In their EXTREMELY small pond they appear to be REALLY BIG FISH.   but in the real world, they aren't even minnows.   But they have this warped view so they think Josh will be returned to them for 'treatment" solely because of who they are and they believe influential people want to keep them happy.   The real influential people could give a rat's ass about the Duggars and Josh and his bright future especially.

IMO they've warped the idea far beyond that.   They peddle the notion that their plans and goals are always one and the same with God's and anything that doesn't line up with their aims are evil or Satan at work.  

[Scout Finch]

I just finished episode three of the "I Pray You Lay This Journal Down" podcast. For those who don't know about it, Justin is the guy who throughout his teens had been good friends with Josh. He also did the Reddit AMA. Only a portion of episodes are about the Duggars; overall, it's a comprehensive look at what he went through in the fundie world growing up and gives a lot of context. 

He disclosed the betrayal by Josh that ended their friendship (which was after the marriage to Anna and a few kids later). He had confided in Josh, seeking counsel and feeling lost, about someone who had abused him. Josh went straight to the abuser to alert him, claiming that Justin was going around blabbing about it, even though he was the only one Justin had been brave enough to tell. Although Justin didn't disclose any further information about his abuser on the episode, it was important to him to finally share the fact publicly, to let any listeners with similar experiences know that they aren't alone. 

There's also been some eye-opening information about the extent of Josh's technical knowledge of computers. Over the years, he explained lots of tricks and hacks to Justin and when Justin got a new computer, Josh helped him with advanced settings. If their friendship hadn't already ended, Justin said he obviously would have in light of the CSA charges but he is not the least bit surprised about how Josh has been able to secretly do all of his Internet activities.

 

[BitterApple]

Not to be the Debbie Downer, but has this Justin guy been vetted? It seems a little weird he's just coming out with this now. 

[Ohiopirate02]

14 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Not to be the Debbie Downer, but has this Justin guy been vetted? It seems a little weird he's just coming out with this now. 

He was vetted by the moderators on the Duggar Snark subreddit.  The mods don't show the work when it comes to vetting people, but it was done.  In my experience, if someone is spinning tales on a Reddit AMA, they get found out pretty fast.  Justin did multiple AMAs and his story has stayed consistent.  

[Scout Finch]

The main reason for he and his wife doing the podcast is working through their experiences growing up in that circle and the damage it did. He said he did contact authorities at the time when he learned of Josh's molestation of his sisters, with what he knew about the Duggars and the context in which things he saw now made sense. He never received any responses. At the end of episode three, he also went on a scathing tirade about TLC's producers at the end of the episode for basically selling their souls for money and how he hoped they enjoyed their nice boats and big houses, etc. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Scout Finch

[Churchhoney]

5 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Not to be the Debbie Downer, but has this Justin guy been vetted? It seems a little weird he's just coming out with this now. 

The details of what he says about experiences with Duggars have the ring of truth. But whether or not he knew the Duggars, he and his wife very clearly have been insiders in the Duggar-type world. Lot of interesting insights emerge from the podcasts. Little things, like the fact that "diligence" (Anna's praise word for Josh, just before the arrest) is one of their words -- it's one I hadn't really heard before. But it's all over this guy's teen journal. 

In the third of the podcasts, he discusses what he construed as sexual sin as a teenager and about the fasting that he undertook to help him do penance for it. He has some a very specific description of a parental talk on the instant, unquestioning obedience that's talked about. He and his wife talk about the connections they saw between the fasting and eating disorders among teenagers, especially, in these families, both boys and girls. The older Rodrigui jump to mind with that part. 

Just for these things, the podcasts are well worth a listen, if you're interested in hearing about what the kids' lives are like. Episode 3 includes the fasting/eating-disorder thing.

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

In the third of the podcasts, he discusses what he construed as sexual sin as a teenager and about the fasting that he undertook to help him do penance for it. He has some a very specific description of a parental talk on the instant, unquestioning obedience that's talked about. He and his wife talk about the connections they saw between the fasting and eating disorders among teenagers, especially, in these families, both boys and girls. The older Rodrigui jump to mind with that part. 

Just for these things, the podcasts are well worth a listen, if you're interested in hearing about what the kids' lives are like. Episode 3 includes the fasting/eating-disorder thing.

They are the first ones I thought of. 

[rue721]

On 5/11/2021 at 3:44 PM, Gigi43 said:

But Anna has leverage against the Duggar's because she's the one who could most likely get the biggest deal for a tell-all if she were to to break free so even cheap-ass JB may pay her off.

Fascinating thought, but I think Anna is a true believer and would never participate in a tell-all. I don’t think she has any leverage against JB and Michelle — if anything they are probably blaming her for not “doing her job” by keeping Josh on the straight and narrow. They are probably not as forgiving as we are for her failing to monitor his computer activity, for one. I think she’s in danger of becoming the family whipping boy. 

She does not come off as a very nice person, but I also think she’s in a very precarious position and doubling down on delusional cult bullshit to cope. I have no respect for her but I do have some pity. 

On 5/11/2021 at 4:49 PM, IndianPaintbrush said:

Some of the file names are really bad. Just having to go on the dark web implies Josh knew the content was out-of-bounds and likely illegal.

The law firm I used to work for defended a guy charged with possession of CP. He claimed he didn't actually have an attraction to children. He said he got a rush from looking at shocking images, and his viewing habits spiraled out of control because he was always in search of more shocking content. I could see Josh using this argument, although his history with minors is a huge strike against that.

To be honest, I think Josh is a sadist interested in sexual violence, and in his mind, the more vulnerable the victim of that sexual violence is, the better.

To me, that seems like an extremely dangerous person to be around. Not just for children but for anyone that Josh thinks is vulnerable. Including women, including his wife.

On 5/11/2021 at 10:00 PM, madpsych78 said:

For some reason, Josiah keeps coming to my mind here. The show did depict him as probably the only sibling who demonstrated any sort of looking-up-to-Josh behavior (especially when he first started courting Marjorie). And, he hasn't been on social media for six months. I really feel like he is such a wild card that it could have nothing to do with Josh, or absolutely everything to do with Josh (re: the supposed rumor about some other Duggars being implicated).

I wonder what Josiah is feeling right now. My assumption has always been that he was marked as a “sinner” in the family, and was married off to Lauren to keep him on the straight and  narrow — and I figured his “sin” was probably being queer. I thought his gloating and Lauren’s ashen face after the wedding night was probably because he didn’t know how sex would go and was delighted that he could “get it done.” All that might be true, but in light of the darkness of the charges against Josh, and Josiah retreating from any kind of public life, I wonder if I’ve been naive and things are more complex and darker than I’ve assumed.

I’m not saying Josiah did anything wrong, I have never gotten the feeling he is more of an ass or a danger than any of his siblings — but knowing that the family has been harboring a straight up predator for 30+ years makes me see the family dynamics and all the siblings a bit differently.

On 5/12/2021 at 8:59 AM, 3girlsforus said:

If the rumor that Josh is trying to make a deal by throwing someone else in the family under the bus has any truth I imagine it goes something like this. 

The person is Josiah because he worked at the car lot. Josh realizes that Josiah worked at the car lot so he tells his lawyer it could have been Josiah who downloaded the stuff. Josh's lawyers know this is crap but see if the Feds take the bait. The Feds laugh their asses off. 

The Feds might laugh their asses off, but Ma and Pa Duggar probably wouldn’t. Josiah might be in for a world of hurt from them if Josh can manage to pawn off any blame onto Josiah, even temporarily, even only within the family. Of course the court would never believe it, but the parents would LOVE to believe something like that.

On 5/25/2021 at 11:30 AM, Nysha said:

Good god, Pickles is a nasty piece of work. Jacob's father is dead, so he isn't currently supporting Sex Pest's behavior, and Jacob is not responsible for his father's decisions. What good would it do to call out a dead person? Jim Bob has deliberately defended, downplayed, and supported Josh's actions all his life. 

This is so messed up of Pickles! Jacob isn’t responsible for his father’s choices, and is clearly making a different one himself given that he’s speaking out. Also like you say, it’s pretty clear Jacob has his own demons. I’d imagine that it’s scary to know that your father could watch someone praying on children for years, someone who is supposedly part of his “flock” and who he is responsible for, and never spoke out. Who knows what else Mr Wilson failed to protect his children or anyone else from? And the same goes for the Duggars. 

With every one of these scandals, you always have to assume that what we know about is the tip of the iceberg. And as that tip of the iceberg gets worse and worse, it makes you wonder what the actual iceberg really looks like. 

[Churchhoney]

I agree with @rue721 about Josh likely being interested in sexual violence, generally. And I would guess that that interest goes beyond sexual violence to an interest in just seeing and doing violence and harm to others, period, if you get a chance.

And since I think Josh is also a big fat coward who's always hidden behind his doting parents and their fellow patriarchs, he doesn't get in the ring with any contenders but confines his urge to strike to those who are smaller, weaker and more vulnerable than he. 

Justin in his journal podcast presents further evidence that Josh has sadistic tendencies and greatly relishes having power over someone and seeing them in a vulnerable position, seems to me. That's what I hear when he describes how he confided abuse he experienced to Josh and Josh rushed right out and told the accused abuser what Justin had said. 

To my mind, that's sadistic as hell. And it amounts to one-upping somebody who was clearly vulnerable and whom you enticed to trust you.

No way you'd do that if you didnt't simply enjoy exercising the feeling that you're on the side of power (Josh was one of the golden men of their little Christian group -- he was a patriarch on the rise, basically)....and enjoy the feeling of hurting someone who's vulnerable just because you can. 

To me, that goes right along with the kind of arrogant look he's generally had on his face throughout his life. (Not that everybody arrogant will do things like that -- but I think anybody who has that tendency has a tendency to smugness and arrogance as well. If you go around picking on the vulnerable, you'll have the feeling that you're the big powerful winner a lot. )

Edited May 27, 2021 by Churchhoney

[libgirl2]

I always thought he had a sadistic streak. Something was just off putting about him. I also agree with @rue721. Would he have acted on his darkest desires if he hadn't been caught? I don't know. What he was viewing went beyond regular porn. He went from porn to this.... 

[Tikichick]

22 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I agree with @rue721 about Josh likely being interested in sexual violence, generally. And I would guess that that interest goes beyond sexual violence to an interest in just seeing and doing violence and harm to others, period, if you get a chance.

And since I think Josh is also a big fat coward who's always hidden behind his doting parents and their fellow patriarchs, he butdoesn't get in the ring with any contenders confines his urge to strike to those who are smaller, weaker and more vulnerable than he. 

Justin in his journal podcast presents further evidence that Josh has sadistic tendencies and greatly relishes having power over someone and seeing them in a vulnerable position, seems to me. That's what I hear when he describes how he confided abuse he experienced to Josh and Josh rushed right out and told the accused abuser what Justin had said. 

To my mind, that's sadistic as hell. And it amounts to one-upping somebody who was clearly vulnerable and whom you enticed to trust you.

No way you'd do that if you didnt't simply enjoy exercising the feeling that you're on the side of power (Josh was one of the golden men of their little Christian group -- he was a patriarch on the rise, basically)....and enjoy the feeling of hurting someone who's vulnerable just because you can. 

To me, that goes right along with the kind of arrogant look he's generally had on his face throughout his life. (Not that everybody arrogant will do things like that -- but I think anybody who has that tendency has a tendency to smugness and arrogance as well. If you go around picking on the vulnerable, you'll have the feeling that you're the big powerful winner a lot. )

You've just outlined a lot of the classic hallmarks of a predator.  They are masters at presenting the right face to the right audience in order to survive.   

They also have developed very heightened abilities regarding observing others and noting their strengths and weaknesses in order to use them to the predator's advantage.   They kind of have to if they're going to become successful at selecting their prey, managing their prey and taking down their prey.   They take a keen interest in others who are not potential prey, recognizing the need to either be completely undetected, or spin the appropriate cover story to explain stray details where necessary.

[GeeGolly]

I saw the fact of Josh telling Jacob's abuser, as he was 'protecting one of his own'. That, to me, is a sure sign that Josh was (and is) a predator. Little tiny things like that mean a whole lot.

This is one of the reasons the stigma of abuse is dangerous. If there was no stigma, or less stigma, maybe Jacob would have told someone that Josh was protecting an abuser. I'm not blaming anything on Jacob, I'm just stating if the culture, theirs and society's, was different, things may have turned out differently.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by GeeGolly

[CalicoKitty]

I hated Josh when he made the joke about the students who ride the "short bus"--the bus that picks up special needs kids.  I don't remember exactly the exact context, but he was calling out someone and said they belonged on the short bus.  And he was laughing.  Another incidence of his supposed superior standing.

[BigBingerBro]

23 minutes ago, CalicoKitty said:

I hated Josh when he made the joke about the students who ride the "short bus"--the bus that picks up special needs kids.  I don't remember exactly the exact context, but he was calling out someone and said they belonged on the short bus.  And he was laughing.  Another incidence of his supposed superior standing.

I hated that too.  I think it was a social media post.  So tone-deaf and really what does he know about school busses anyways?

[Churchhoney]

24 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

I hated that too.  I think it was a social media post.  So tone-deaf and really what does he know about school busses anyways?

All the Duggarlings know all about school buses to hear them talk. Their parents clearly impressed on them strongly that riding a school bus is the worst fate that could ever befall a person. More than one of them has been quoted spouting off about the horrors of that. (Can't help thinking there's some "forced busing" sentiment buried down there among JB's and M's motivations for "teaching" their kids about that, too....Along with their deep concern about the dangers and miseries a truly godly person would face having to endure a daily bus ride with heathens, of course.)

Edited May 27, 2021 by Churchhoney

[sue450]

On 5/24/2021 at 12:53 PM, MargeGunderson said:

I would love to hear why Anna thinks he’s innocent. What is her explanation for what was found in the computer? I really want to see how she hand-waves this away. I know it will never happen but I wish it would. 

    anna and the duggars are in the bil gothards cult......they think the men have no control over their lust...the word abuse is not used  it is a MATTER handled by the church...A woman who filed suit against bill gothard said he told her to thank her father for molesting her when she was a child because it made her spiritually stronger......being abused is a badge of honor..........PTSD, anxiety, trauma depression do not exist, if you  have any of these you are not trusting enough in god....if a woman want to go get an education or job out in the world she will be under the influence of satan and terrible things will happen ( she will be raped or her child/children will be murdered)..........this is TERRIBLE and especially the females get a bare bones education at the kitchen table.......watching the duggars the daughters always seemed emotionally and mentally stunted and much younger than their their physical years...... it is no surprise with the way they were raised.....and don't forget the horrors of blanket training starting when the baby is 6 months old because according to mr pearl a 6 month old baby is manipulating you...several children died from parents using the ABUSE tecniques from this book ( how to train up a child) 

[libgirl2]

3 hours ago, CalicoKitty said:

I hated Josh when he made the joke about the students who ride the "short bus"--the bus that picks up special needs kids.  I don't remember exactly the exact context, but he was calling out someone and said they belonged on the short bus.  And he was laughing.  Another incidence of his supposed superior standing.

Another example of his sadism and depravity.

Edited May 28, 2021 by libgirl2

[WinnieWinkle]

5 hours ago, CalicoKitty said:

I hated Josh when he made the joke about the students who ride the "short bus"--the bus that picks up special needs kids.  I don't remember exactly the exact context, but he was calling out someone and said they belonged on the short bus.  And he was laughing.  Another incidence of his supposed superior standing.

Just when I thought I couldn't possibly despise him any more than I already do I read this and find that, yeah, I can actually despise him even more.

[emmawoodhouse]

16 minutes ago, WinnieWinkle said:

Just when I thought I couldn't possibly despise him any more than I already do I read this and find that, yeah, I can actually despise him even more.

He seriously has zero redeeming qualities. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

[Nysha]

I think Josh has a lot of anger towards his family. His life was normal until Jill was born & then his parents took off on the baby train and no more school, his mom was always stressed and busy, and he was crammed into a tiny house with lots of sibling. Plus, he's never been allowed to show his anger and discontent, especially towards his parents. So he lorded his status over his siblings and probably made their lives hell, just because he could. He sexually assaulted his sisters and nothing really bad happened to him. 

Then he was pushed into a marriage and horde of kids he never wanted. He only wanted to have sex, not to be tied to his simple vanilla wife. 

My guess is the Ashley Madison and sexual assault charge taught him he needed to be sneakier and probably made his anger issues go through the roof. So he watches small children being violently sexually abused and gets some satisfaction that those kids are getting what all kids deserve.

[Cinnabon]

15 minutes ago, Nysha said:

I think Josh has a lot of anger towards his family. His life was normal until Jill was born & then his parents took off on the baby train and no more school, his mom was always stressed and busy, and he was crammed into a tiny house with lots of sibling. Plus, he's never been allowed to show his anger and discontent, especially towards his parents. So he lorded his status over his siblings and probably made their lives hell, just because he could. He sexually assaulted his sisters and nothing really bad happened to him. 

Then he was pushed into a marriage and horde of kids he never wanted. He only wanted to have sex, not to be tied to his simple vanilla wife. 

My guess is the Ashley Madison and sexual assault charge taught him he needed to be sneakier and probably made his anger issues go through the roof. So he watches small children being violently sexually abused and gets some satisfaction that those kids are getting what all kids deserve.

I think you’re absolutely right.

[Spazamanaz]

Just now, Nysha said:

I think Josh has a lot of anger towards his family. His life was normal until Jill was born & then his parents took off on the baby train and no more school, his mom was always stressed and busy, and he was crammed into a tiny house with lots of sibling. Plus, he's never been allowed to show his anger and discontent, especially towards his parents. So he lorded his status over his siblings and probably made their lives hell, just because he could. He sexually assaulted his sisters and nothing really bad happened to him. 

Then he was pushed into a marriage and horde of kids he never wanted. He only wanted to have sex, not to be tied to his simple vanilla wife. 

My guess is the Ashley Madison and sexual assault charge taught him he needed to be sneakier and probably made his anger issues go through the roof. So he watches small children being violently sexually abused and gets some satisfaction that those kids are getting what all kids deserve.

Your last sentence gave me chills. It is all so horrifying and disgusting. 

[emmawoodhouse]

44 minutes ago, Nysha said:

I think Josh has a lot of anger towards his family. His life was normal until Jill was born & then his parents took off on the baby train and no more school, his mom was always stressed and busy, and he was crammed into a tiny house with lots of sibling. Plus, he's never been allowed to show his anger and discontent, especially towards his parents. So he lorded his status over his siblings and probably made their lives hell, just because he could. He sexually assaulted his sisters and nothing really bad happened to him. 

Then he was pushed into a marriage and horde of kids he never wanted. He only wanted to have sex, not to be tied to his simple vanilla wife. 

My guess is the Ashley Madison and sexual assault charge taught him he needed to be sneakier and probably made his anger issues go through the roof. So he watches small children being violently sexually abused and gets some satisfaction that those kids are getting what all kids deserve.

He's clearly a sociopath. It's a shame that he was treated like a little prince growing up rather than getting him some real help after the molestations. As scripted, Jessa parroted the Duggar party line that Smuggar was just " curious." And from Jill, Gothard statistics that proved (to them) that this behavior was common. 

After he got off lightly, he just got worse. Sociopaths can be charming, so I am not surprised that Anna was fooled. This guy's entire life has been a huge lie.

[GeeGolly]

6 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

He seriously has zero redeeming qualities. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

This sentence is both 100% accurate and an understatement.

[merylinkid]

7 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

He's clearly a sociopath.

This is more likely than "he is angry because his life sucked."    Claiming he was angry places the blame on others -- Ma and Pa Grifters, his siblings for being born, etc.   It excuses him.  

Nah, he CHOSE to do these things.   It's nobody else's fault but his own.

[Normades]

9 hours ago, Nysha said:

His life was normal until Jill was born & then his parents took off on the baby train and no more school, his mom was always stressed and busy, and he was crammed into a tiny house with lots of sibling.

Makes me wonder if that's why he chose Jill to abuse and not Jana.  He really seems to dislike Jill.  Also it gives some insight into how much he dislikes children.  I'm not saying he isn't responsible, but JimBoob and MEschelle do have some culpability in my opinion, but Josh is ultimately responsible.  They are all disgusting.

[Minivanessa]

14 minutes ago, Normades said:

Makes me wonder if that's why he chose Jill to abuse and not Jana.  He really seems to dislike Jill.  Also it gives some insight into how much he dislikes children.  I'm not saying he isn't responsible, but JimBoob and MEschelle do have some culpability in my opinion, but Josh is ultimately responsible.  They are all disgusting.

I also think he doesn't believe in God/Jesus and just goes through the motions. I'll go out on a limb of speculation here: I think he may have had doubts about the whole religion thing as a kid when he saw his parents become born-again, Bible-pounding, converts to the fundie/IBLP/Gothard belief system. He knew enough to keep his mouth shut about any doubts, and he was probably bright enough to know how to parrot back what his parents wanted to hear. He may have thus discovered that he could please and influence his parents by spouting the right religious stuff while keeping to himself that he thought it was all BS. And from that he went on to glory in his "appointed child of destiny" role bestowed on him by his parents and later on members of his church. 

I think he's weak enough not to have seriously considered just bolting out of his family as a young adult, because he was the favored child. He was hauled around the State Capitol by his dad, got to work on a Senate campaign (Jim Holt), became a teevee star, and everything. And I think that all the time he was running a con on the world, enjoying the perks and power and celebrity and comfort of his life as the Duggar crown prince. Sure, there were setbacks but overall he felt secure that he was something special, and that he knew how to talk the talk the fundies wanted to hear. 

As I said, I'm out on a limb here, and we all know how insecure a position that is. I suppose it's always possible that he has a sincere belief that Jesus came to wash away the sins of the world and put male persons of his race/nationality in charge of this world in all things social, economic, political, and religious. But I think he's a sociopath who believes in nothing except winning whatever game he's running at the time. And he's been that way for a long long time.

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, merylinkid said:

This is more likely than "he is angry because his life sucked."    Claiming he was angry places the blame on others -- Ma and Pa Grifters, his siblings for being born, etc.   It excuses him.  

Nah, he CHOSE to do these things.   It's nobody else's fault but his own.

I agree that these things are, now, Josh's choice. But in this particular system, especially, I don't think there's any way to leave the parents totally off the hook for how they molded their children.

Ma and Pa made a LOT of choices regarding Josh and his siblings when he was very young. They openly and actively (and in line with Gothard's "teachings") promoted him at home and wherever they took him as the 'leader of their home" and taught their younger children that he was that -- and, further, that the younger children were required to obey the older ones.......

If they'd looked at the facts, they might well have noticed that Josh had a personality that really really took advantage of that "leader of the home" and "obey your oldest siblings" thing. And had the sense to try to mold him in a different direction. But they didn't. In fact, they seem to have done the opposite. They allegedly held him up as not just the golden boy of their family but the great hope of their cult and even their culture. In doing that, they didn't just play favorites to a pretty massive degree but they may well have fostered further blossoming of some of the worst traits of a kid like Josh. 

The arrogance all over his face when Josh was a kid didn't just come from his own natural traits, seems to me. It was encouraged to grow and develop by the position his parents put him in in the interest of sustaining a powerful patriarchy. As JB took him to the statehouse regularly when he served there, Josh, who was a youngish teen at the time, reportedly got the nickname "governor," presumably based on his demeanor in the place. It's hard to see how his parents couldn't have noticed the arrogance with which he tooled around everywhere, since other people did. But it seems that either they did fail to notice it and/or they encouraged it because it fit perfectly with their aspirations for who he was and who he would become -- a leader. 

Now clearly his parents weren't paying much individual attention to what was going on with any of their kids, since they didn't notice the molestations going on in their own household until they were told about them....And they lived in a tiny house at the time.....And their oblivion clearly extended to the doings of Josh the golden boy.....And then, of course, when the problem was brought to their attention, they obviously didn't think they had a family management problem at all .... since they went on to have more kids, thus making it even harder for them to parent any of those kids well....

So, yeah, adult Josh is the main person who's to blame here.

But in my opinion his parents bear a helluva lot of blame for their crappy crappy parenting -- which, while it doesn't do so necessarily, can play some role in the development of a kid with serious personality and character issues. And they definitely bear blame for letting so many things slide related to Josh's whole saga. And they continue to let things slide today, it appears. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Minivanessa]

@Churchhoney I think you've supplied a valuable piece of the story, i.e., the parents' ignorant or willful disregard of Josh's behavior as a child/adolescent. If Josh tried to con them at age 7 or 8, but they perceived what he was doing and didn't let him get away with it, it's possible things would be a lot different today. But IMO he must have learned young how to please them, and at some point realized he could not just please them but manipulate them. And all that time, they were exalting their firstborn son as something super-special.

Well, he probably was super special, but not in the way they thought. 🙁

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, Normades said:

Makes me wonder if that's why he chose Jill to abuse and not Jana.  He really seems to dislike Jill.  Also it gives some insight into how much he dislikes children.  I'm not saying he isn't responsible, but JimBoob and MEschelle do have some culpability in my opinion, but Josh is ultimately responsible.  They are all disgusting.

I wonder just how long JD hasn't liked Josh?   Jana and JD are twins and it's becoming more apparent as they are adults that they actually do have a special bond.  If that bond is longstanding Josh would have known that.   If JD didn't idolize Josh as a  model big brother Josh would have known that, too.   It's entirely possible that Josh didn't select Jana because he was aware she had a protector who would possibly retaliate against Josh.   

Predators are masters at observing details about others in order to successfully achieve the satisfaction of their drive without being caught.   That drive consumes much of their lives and they meticulously attend to every detail to obtain what they desire.

[GeeGolly]

I'm not defending JB & M...

While parents always have some influence in determining what kind of adults their children will be, its obviously only a part of forming a person. And I think its unfair to disregard intention. There are plenty of parents who intentionally steer their kids down hateful and sometimes criminal paths. There are way more parents who just screw up.

There's no where in my mind that JB & M intentionally contributed to the monster Josh is. I do believe their crappy parenting did unknowingly enable an already creep of a son.

 

[GeeGolly]

16 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I wonder just how long JD hasn't liked Josh?   Jana and JD are twins and it's becoming more apparent as they are adults that they actually do have a special bond.  If that bond is longstanding Josh would have known that.   If JD didn't idolize Josh as a  model big brother Josh would have known that, too.   It's entirely possible that Josh didn't select Jana because he was aware she had a protector who would possibly retaliate against Josh.   

Predators are masters at observing details about others in order to successfully achieve the satisfaction of their drive without being caught.   That drive consumes much of their lives and they meticulously attend to every detail to obtain what they desire.

JD stated shortly after Scandal #2, that his feelings about Josh changed then. Something to the effect of, "I always looked up to Josh. I always wanted to be like him. Over the course of the last few weeks, my feelings have changed and I no longer look up to him".

Edited May 28, 2021 by GeeGolly

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm not defending JB & M...

While parents always have some influence in determining what kind of adults their children will be, its obviously only a part of forming a person. And I think its unfair to disregard intention. There are plenty of parents who intentionally steer their kids down hateful and sometimes criminal paths. There are way more parents who just screw up.

There's no where in my mind that JB & M intentionally contributed to the monster Josh is. I do believe their crappy parenting did unknowingly enable an already creep of a son.

 

Amongst the many, many eyebrows I raise at JB & M surrounding their intentional choices regarding lifestyle and raising their children under this cult, complete mishandling of Josh's youthful offenses and the harm they increased by how they addressed things with their daughters I do have another one raised regarding the potential they turned up the heat and the risk by grotesquely meting out punishments surrounding normal phases of development -- such as parading around one of the boys in front of people with his hands tied together as a punishment for masturbation.   That is unhealthy on so many levels and potentially very destructive on many fronts.

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

JD stated shortly after Scandal #2, that he feelings about Josh changed then. Something to the effect of, "I always looked up to Josh. I always wanted to be like him. Over the course of the last few weeks, my feelings have changed and I no longer look up to him".

Interesting, but still doesn't rule out the possibility Josh weighed JD's admiration of himself versus JD's bond with Jana and realized that the potential of JD defending Jana made her a riskier target than the others.   It's very well known predators target those they feel are defenseless, won't be believed, etc.   Jana having a built in male ally may have made her inherently more risky to victimize. 

[madpsych78]

Naw, I still maintain that Josh left Jana alone because she was too old. I don't think JD had anything to do with it.

[Normades]

33 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Amongst the many, many eyebrows I raise at JB & M surrounding their intentional choices regarding lifestyle and raising their children under this cult, complete mishandling of Josh's youthful offenses and the harm they increased by how they addressed things with their daughters I do have another one raised regarding the potential they turned up the heat and the risk by grotesquely meting out punishments surrounding normal phases of development -- such as parading around one of the boys in front of people with his hands tied together as a punishment for masturbation.   That is unhealthy on so many levels and potentially very destructive on many fronts.

Also their choice of living in a small home with too many children while they were busily making more children (I can't imagine there was lots of privacy), posting Michelle's cycle so that it was common knowledge, and flaunting their physical relationship in front of their pubescent kids (we can do this, but you can't) definitely makes them complicit in my mind.  They weren't raised in a cult and they had enough outside exposure to know it was not right.  Maybe being quiverfull was not an intentional contribution, but throwing their physical relationship in their kids face was intentional. 

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm not defending JB & M...

While parents always have some influence in determining what kind of adults their children will be, its obviously only a part of forming a person. And I think its unfair to disregard intention. There are plenty of parents who intentionally steer their kids down hateful and sometimes criminal paths. There are way more parents who just screw up.

There's no where in my mind that JB & M intentionally contributed to the monster Josh is. I do believe their crappy parenting did unknowingly enable an already creep of a son.

 

I think the fundie (and Gothard-enhanced) worldview of JB and M and their group has always aimed at creating a world that exists solely so that a bunch of patriarchs can get what they want at everybody else's expense. And to me that's an evil intent! 

Now, do I think that JB would ever allow himself to imagine that his intentions, his selfishness, his arrogance are wrong? Absolutely not.

I'm sure he believes he's virtuous and is always seeking the stuff that god wants....However, in my opinion these guys created god in their own image and sustain that creation with everything they've got in order to keep getting what they want! And....again....down underneath what I see as their denial, there's what to me is an evil super-selfish intent that overlooks the full humanity (and the rights thereof) of even their children! 

Now we all deny stuff and want to have things are own way (at others' expense, if it comes to that). But most of us don't seek to create a world for others and ourselves that's quite so extreme. These particular people do create something very extreme. 

For all those reasons, it's hard to say how much accountability somebody has when their denial leads them (unwittingly in a way) to create and sustain situations that may be really bad for other people, while (seemingly, anyway) good for themselves.

But I think we have to believe that we're all accountable to some degree for beliefs that we hold and act on for years when they're damaging for other people. To just go blindly on with our denial that anything could be wrong about our belief system does, at the very least, fly in the face of Christianity's supposed revered commandment -- "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." or "Love your neighbor as yourself." 

If you're an adult but you never ever examine whether your beliefs and behavior might be harming other people or harming the community because you're just thrilled that those beliefs and behavior are "working great for MEEEE!" then you should have some accountability.

I don't know how much it can be or how we can manage to get us all held responsible for things like that....But I think of this principle -- "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." .... And I think willful ignorance of bad consequences for others that may arise from one's principles should not be an excuse.

We should probably be able to expect that adults will examine themselves at times to see if they're missing something. So that's what I would expect JB and M to do -- but it's clear that they never did. And they're not brain dead. They have the normal amount of brains. So they owed to their kids and to other people to look more closely at what was going on.

Signs of problems were there, and they repeatedly just swept them under the rug and continued spouting and practicing the exact same stuff -- except for bans on hide and seek and so on -- without ever questioning whether their underlying principles and ideas were actually making things go wrong in some ways. I mean, two adults should question themselves when the mother freaks out because of her large number of children when "she doesn't have a heart for children" but some set of principles that's good for Dad (and Mom) in other ways says -- "Have a whole ton more!" But, no, it seems likely they didn't ask themselves many searching questions about that sequence of events. And they coulda. 

I think we can at least say that they were wrong to the extent that they didn't seem to question any of that -- because it was working well for JB and M. 

Josh and the others are their children, after all. And JB and M were raised in fairly normal-looking circumstances, were sent to school, appear to have an average amount of brain power -- so there was never a bar to them asking a few more questions of themselves. (and we know they never have because they've just spouted the exact same shit over and over and over and over again and "taught" their kids to spout it, too)

 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Churchhoney

[dariafan]

I bet no one wanted to sit by either jb or Michelle riding the bus.  So they told their kids horror stories.  Cause the only reason to “ fear “ the bus would be if you have watched “license to drive “ as many times as I have ( quit judging me it was the early 90s).  Or you have shit bag parents telling you half truths 

[Natalie68]

1 hour ago, Normades said:

Also their choice of living in a small home with too many children while they were busily making more children (I can't imagine there was lots of privacy), posting Michelle's cycle so that it was common knowledge, and flaunting their physical relationship in front of their pubescent kids (we can do this, but you can't) definitely makes them complicit in my mind.  They weren't raised in a cult and they had enough outside exposure to know it was not right.  Maybe being quiverfull was not an intentional contribution, but throwing their physical relationship in their kids face was intentional. 

I have a feeling one day the psychopathy of this family will be studied.  I think that Josh may have learned his type of abuse from someone else.  The effects of rabid procreation with little means (to be spent on kids), little space, kids not spending any time around non fundy kids and the seemingly rampant sexual abuse in this particular cult.  The parental hyper sexuality and the kids participating in the tracking of M's cycle, it is all so icky.  There was too much familial knowledge about those two having sex that it seems like it could have left a mark.   I don't know what I am really trying to say but hindsight?  This family is way fucked up and has been normalized and celebrated for far too long.  

[JoanArc]

 Everyone forgets about the yelling. Jim Bob freely admitted to having an anger issue in the books, and the girls were supposed to remind him to stop when he got angry.  Michelle admitted to yelling a lot before getting the baby voice affect. SOMETHING helped produce Josh, and turn to Janna for spirited extrovert to quiet introvert who only spoke to her parents. 

 Michelle and Jim Bob were young, didn’t have a lot of money, and the kids are starting to pile up. Even though Josh got the experience of a mother that was devoted to him, and a semi-normal early school experience, he was also exposed to a lot of potential anger.    I’m sure there were a lot of fights between Jim Bob and Michelle, and I have to wonder if anything was taken out on any of the children. He also saw his parents convert, and become two-faced people themselves. Basically showing him it was OK to have a godly face, and then ruthlessly pursue your own interests and glorification behind the scenes. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by JoanArc

[Natalie68]

2 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

 Everyone forgets about the yelling. Jim Bob freely admitted to having an anger issue in the books, and the girls were supposed to remind him to stop when he got angry.  Michelle admitted to yelling a lot before getting the baby voice affect. SOMETHING helped produce Josh, and turn to Jannah for men spirited extrovert to quiet introvert who only spoke to her parents. 

 Michelle and Jim Bob were young, didn’t have a lot of money, and the kids are starting to pile up. Even though Josh got the experience of a mother that was devoted to him, and a semi-normal early school experience, he was also exposed to a lot of potential anger.    I’m sure there were a lot of fights between Jim Bob and Michelle, and I have to wonder if anything was taken out on any of the children. He also saw his parents convert, and become two-faced people themselves. Basically showing him it was OK to have a godly face, and then ruthlessly pursue your own interests and glorification behind the scenes. 

I did forget about the anger.  Yeah, someone needs to do an indepth study of this type of family.  

[auntieminem]

Interesting discussions.  Yesterday I watched Dr. Phil (don't judge me well at least not based on that lol) because the show was about a woman whose husband turned out to be a child rapist and there was another story (follow-up) about a mother whose oldest son became a sexual predator when he became and adolescent. The first woman had been married to the "perfect husband" for 10 years and had 2 kids with him. She found out when the police raided her house and arrested him. He of course was saying he was innocent and she had no indication of his predatory behavior; but when the police showed her evidence (her husband would take videos of sex with minors or stalking a woman with children) she immediately believed and cut him out of her and their children's life. He is still in prison and she has remarried. Not the Anna response.  The mother was the one who first recognized her son's inappropriate behavior and tried to get him help, the son also admitted to his feeling and behaviors. He went to treatment centers would would not work on his issues so kept going back to his parents who eventually had him arrested for assaulting his sibling. Now in prison in a program for sex offenders, he is truly mentally ill. This mother was so broken did try everything to help him but know he is not safe so will never come home. 

Anyhow, this made me think of the responses of Anna and JB & Michelle. The disbelief initially is understandable but the wife and the mother did make efforts to protect their kids and others from these offenders.  Things could have been different had Michelle and JB had really tried to do more than pray and punish and made the girls forgive him. Or maybe like the son on Dr. P he was not salvageable; if so they could have at least mitigated the damage somewhat and if he was salvageable they denied him the chance. Anna chose him over her kids and continues to do so. 

OK, now I won't need to watch Dr. Phil again, the topic caught my eye and I was curious about the reactions and responses of the wife and the mother as it was so timely to Josh. I was surprised DP didn't try to relate it but I imagine it was filmed before all this. 

 

[GeeGolly]

Nature vs nurture, intent vs ignorance, birth order, sex, subsystems, resilience and perception are only a few of the ways the family environment effect dynamics and outcome. The Duggars are a perfect family to study due to a number of factors, including family size, belief system and of course Josh. As much as JB & M wanted to churn out stolid soldiers for God, they ended up with 19 different kids.

[libgirl2]

16 minutes ago, auntieminem said:

Interesting discussions.  Yesterday I watched Dr. Phil (don't judge me well at least not based on that lol) because the show was about a woman whose husband turned out to be a child rapist and there was another story (follow-up) about a mother whose oldest son became a sexual predator when he became and adolescent. The first woman had been married to the "perfect husband" for 10 years and had 2 kids with him. She found out when the police raided her house and arrested him. He of course was saying he was innocent and she had no indication of his predatory behavior; but when the police showed her evidence (her husband would take videos of sex with minors or stalking a woman with children) she immediately believed and cut him out of her and their children's life. He is still in prison and she has remarried. Not the Anna response.  The mother was the one who first recognized her son's inappropriate behavior and tried to get him help, the son also admitted to his feeling and behaviors. He went to treatment centers would would not work on his issues so kept going back to his parents who eventually had him arrested for assaulting his sibling. Now in prison in a program for sex offenders, he is truly mentally ill. This mother was so broken did try everything to help him but know he is not safe so will never come home. 

Anyhow, this made me think of the responses of Anna and JB & Michelle. The disbelief initially is understandable but the wife and the mother did make efforts to protect their kids and others from these offenders.  Things could have been different had Michelle and JB had really tried to do more than pray and punish and made the girls forgive him. Or maybe like the son on Dr. P he was not salvageable; if so they could have at least mitigated the damage somewhat and if he was salvageable they denied him the chance. Anna chose him over her kids and continues to do so. 

OK, now I won't need to watch Dr. Phil again, the topic caught my eye and I was curious about the reactions and responses of the wife and the mother as it was so timely to Josh. I was surprised DP didn't try to relate it but I imagine it was filmed before all this. 

 

There are people who just can't be fixed. 

[emmawoodhouse]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

There are people who just can't be fixed. 

Smuggar had a chance to at least TRY when he was 15, but he was sent off to build a structure for Gothard instead. Who knows if he would have been " fixed" then, but his parents never gave him a chance to even try.